A Vent/Rant

[yellowbritches]

I so very rarely ranting and raving on a public forum is very necessary or even useful, but I have something to say.....


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHORTEN YOUR STIRRUPS AND GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THE SADDLE BETWEEN FENCES ON CROSS COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been astounded by the number of riders I see riding with nearly dressage length stirrups over fences and who's asses are seemingly GLUED to the tack on cross country! Who is teaching these people and why does no one seem to have a CLUE about galloping position?!?!? It is most prevalent at training and below, but I've seen it at prelim more than I feel comfortable with this year, too. I was at the unrec today at Fair Hill with our kid and her pony and watched rider after rider after rider go by with stirrups 4 holes to long and sitting in the saddle. MY rider, in her THIRD SHOW EVER and second time on a competitive cross country course got up out of the tack and "galloped on" between the fences...and she was the only one I saw ALL DAY. I would like to chock it up to the unrec/lower level riders, but every event I've been to this spring (more rec than not), this is what I've seen. :no::mad:

What is this all about!?!

PS- I know I'm not imagining it either, since it is heavily discussed in our barn and we all groan when walking xc (and the kid, who is soooo new to all this can see it now and comments on it before I even do), and it has been discussed with other GOOD trainers when running into them on course walks.

[LexInVA]

I think it's two things...

1. It's "U" so there isn't going to be an "A-Game" atmosphere and lots of people use those kinds of events to just learn/flop around for fun or whatever which means it will likely attract folks who don't quite have it together as riders but really need to get experience in order to figure it out.

2. Shitty teaching. Can't deny it. Won't sugar-coat it and dip it in chocolate. It is what it is. When you don't have that reinforcement of proper technique to begin with and how it relates to safety, you get bad riders popping up like the Viagra/Cialis fueled first five rows of a Britney Spears concert for a Florida retirement community.

PS Jingles for Vern and intensely painful drug-resistant Gonorrhea for your skanky enemies.

[lstevenson]

I so very rarely ranting and raving on a public forum is very necessary or even useful, but I have something to say.....


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHORTEN YOUR STIRRUPS AND GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THE SADDLE BETWEEN FENCES ON CROSS COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been astounded by the number of riders I see riding with nearly dressage length stirrups over fences and who's asses are seemingly GLUED to the tack on cross country! Who is teaching these people and why does no one seem to have a CLUE about galloping position?!?!? It is most prevalent at training and below, but I've seen it at prelim more than I feel comfortable with this year, too. I was at the unrec today at Fair Hill with our kid and her pony and watched rider after rider after rider go by with stirrups 4 holes to long and sitting in the saddle. MY rider, in her THIRD SHOW EVER and second time on a competitive cross country course got up out of the tack and "galloped on" between the fences...and she was the only one I saw ALL DAY. I would like to chock it up to the unrec/lower level riders, but every event I've been to this spring (more rec than not), this is what I've seen. :no::mad:

What is this all about!?!

PS- I know I'm not imagining it either, since it is heavily discussed in our barn and we all groan when walking xc (and the kid, who is soooo new to all this can see it now and comments on it before I even do), and it has been discussed with other GOOD trainers when running into them on course walks.




AMEN!

This is a huge pet peeve of mine too! It is entirely due to instructors who don't know what they are doing, which unfortunately seems to be the majority nowadays.

[FlightCheck]

Amen

[RiverBendPol]

Exactly. Makes me nuts too.

[yellowbritches]

1. It's "U" so there isn't going to be an "A-Game" atmosphere and lots of people use those kinds of events to just learn/flop around for fun or whatever which means it will likely attract folks who don't quite have it together as riders but really need to get experience in order to figure it out.

Re-read my rant. It ISN'T just at the unrec stuff. I go to way more recognized events than unrecognized stuff. I watched this trashy riding at Surefire all weekend, I watched it at Seneca. I watched it at Rubicon. I saw it at Redlands (among a lot of other really scary stuff like BN horses with kids on them jumping in elephant stoppers while the kid is pumping and grinding with their seat to get the horse to go forward). Didn't see it as much at MCTA, but didn't see nearly as much of the xc riding that weekend. It is endemic! I wish it WAS just at the unrec stuff that I go to...nope.

lstevenson, I am thankful, then, that while our little group of amatuers are in the minority, they are all obviously well taught, since they all get their butts out the saddle and jump in apporpriately length stirrups. Why is there SO much bad teaching?? Especially in THIS area, where there is an overabundance of incredible trainers...and NOT just BNTs eitherr!

[vineyridge]

Read Jimmy Wofford's long article with photos in the most recent PH critiquing riders at Rolex this year. He makes a huge point of too long stirrups at ROLEX fer pete's sake. He is VERY critical of some riding skills that were exhibited there.

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?

[enjoytheride]

1. It's "U" so there isn't going to be an "A-Game" atmosphere and lots of people use those kinds of events to just learn/flop around for fun or whatever which means it will likely attract folks who don't quite have it together as riders but really need to get experience in order to figure it out.

Yikes, I ride unrecognized and it's as serious as all get out to me, it just costs less. I don't go to flop around. Heck, I showed over 18 inch XC jumps and I trotted everything but anytime I cantered I was out of the saddle. It's hard because I only have an indoor at home and I don't get out often.

Further, maybe they have slow horses or don't have a lot of outside experience? I find it easier to get out of the tack but then I have trouble in my dressage because I don't have the sitting experience. If I think my horse is going to be spooky I automatically drop into the saddle a few strides out to protect myself, push the horse forward.

[crosscreeksh]

Amen from me too!! We used to live 5 miles from Carolina Horse Park and held our own rec. and unrec. horse trials and saw it more than not. Also at the big A shows that had eventers riding in the jumpers. Way too many using the "chair seat" with their knees jacked up and flat on their butts. When you pick up Practical Horseman and see a BNR "running" CC sitting on their saddles. Why don't their instructors take time to read some books or GM critiques??

[yellowbritches]

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?
None of our riders foxhunt. They are all training level and below. Something we're doing is right, since they all know to get up and gallop on.

I also don't think it's because riders' horses are slow (especially since I'm seeing it all the way up through prelim, and apparently Jimmy sees it at Rolex...need to watch the DVD). Our kid did the elementary at Loch Moy, which is basically log, log, log, log, etc, her pony is oh-so not fast, but she canters along in two point. She did the "intro" today, which is a 2'3"ish xc course, not timed, and between every fence, she got up in two point, put her hands down on his neck, and rolled on a bit. Seriously, the pony doesn't get near 350mpm. And our older riders that are going BN...which is, AT MOST, a gentle hand gallop. They are up out of the saddle between fences, hands down, allowing their horses to roll on in a lovely rhythm. Slow has nothing to do with it...and considering how 75% of the riders looked today, I'm thinking it may have been a combo of bad teaching and ZERP fitness on the part of the riders....

[LookinSouth]

.

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?


XC lessons with a trainer at a XC facility ? I've ridden at the lowest of levels in eventing (at unrec. nontheless) and before my trainer let me jump a single XC fence I spent lots of time galloping around in my half seat with uber short stirrups working on keeping a consistent pace over uneven terrain and maintaining stamina in my half seat. I get lots of practice galloping in a half seat on trail and in fields on my own as well and I am not even eventing at the moment. You can practice in a decent sized ring as well. Half seat work does wonders for developing a strong base and of course it frees the horses back up.

I cannot fathom how someone could event competively at any level and not work on these skills regularly. How would they get around XC?:confused:

[crosscreeksh]

I don't show or event any more, but I DO foxhunt here in Oklahoma and Kansas - RUGGED country and fast runs on coyote...and wayyyyy too many of the foxhunters are flat on their butts, too!! I can't imagine the poor horses' backs after a long day...or the saddle sores on the riders!!!

[Meredith Clark]

It was an interesting mix of rider skills- many people commented to me that this was their first horse trial either all together or with that particular horse.

I think that the long stirrup issue comes from confidence, even though in reality it's more correct to ride shorter and will benefit the rider in the end- many riders aren't used to balancing that way.

I used to ride Jay with fairly long stirrups, it was a feeling of "if he slams on the breaks or bucks I won't be out of the saddle already and I have a better chance of staying on!!" :eek:

I went and galloped at the track one day and it was a real eye opener in balance and not interfering with the horse. Even after 1 day of galloping I'm much better with my balance and not flippity-flopping on my horses back. I've also gotten more comfortable in galloping position which is really the only way a rider will benefit from it. You can tell a student to ride like Phillip Dutton but if they don't have the balance they're gonna fall over!

[Late]

just a thought, but when I was getting into the upper levels I ran a Training 3-day (Mayfest :)) and the steeplechase school with Cathy Weischoff on Friday was my first real taste of jacking the stirrups up and letting my horses roll - I found that it carried through into the "D" phase and I let my horse move between fences and truly gallop the "breather" fences... after doing that first LF I'm SURE my x-c stirrup length made it up a few holes, and I think the same thing carried through at the other CCI's I eventually ran.

I wonder if the long stirrup ad sitting too much is also a false sense of security thing (and wayyy too much riding in the back seat!)? I know on my greenies I used to like a slightly longer stirrup so I could wrap my leg around them if need be, but I also understood the need to let them move out from under me when the time was right and get up off their backs.

Just my .02

[Meredith Clark]

I cannot fathom how someone could event competively at any level and not work on these skills regularly. How would they get around XC?:confused:

I had MANY riders that didn't even know how an Event was run let alone be prepared to ride at one. Riders who didn't realize they weren't allowed to walk their courses right before they rode (..like while their division was running), riders who didn't have their medical arm bands on their arms, or those who didn't even have one, riders who didn't know when they had been disqualified or those who wanted to get back on and continue after they had fallen off, etc. They just weren't familiar with the rules or how the day went.

It seemed like there were many hunter or pleasure riders that came out to try eventing and I think that's great! At the lower levels I don't think they're doing too much harm riding a bit deeper and hopefully if they want to continue they'll team up with a good eventing trainer.

I do have to say.. I was thanked many times for volunteering (I was stadium Stewart for the second half of the day) and 98% of people were very polite. :)

[PhoenixFarm]

I am not in any way excusing this riding, nor condoning riding with too long stirrups, but I have an idea why some people may do this. (Some, not all, and yes I think the most prevalent answer is bad instruction and not enough riding out of a ring and doing fitness work for horse and riders).

I/we most certainly make our folks ride outside, have appropriate stirrup length, teach two point, etc. So you can imagine my chagrin and horror when at a show one of my kids did exactly the behavior described--pretty much sat the whole XC (her stirrups were short though).

After we'd finished and horsie was cared for and put away I discussed it with her, and her answer seemed to waiver between "i forgot" to "i didn't know what she was going to do/was afraid she was going to get strong". Honestly, based on her pale complexion in the box, and her blue tinge at the end of the ride, I think she had a major case of nerves, and she reverted to a default setting--which considering she'd never taken a formal lesson before she started working with me and rarely used a saddle happened to be sitting canter for the whole of the course.

Next time out she was much better--but still sat between the first four jumps. You could literally see her take a deep breath, shake her head, and then get up in her two point.

So some of it may be nerves.

[Sonic Boom]

YB, these are great points that you and many others are making, and you know I almost always agree with you on things. :) That said, I will say there are a few exceptions to the situation...but I don't think they apply in the situations YOU are talking about.

You know Seneca was my first with Slim, and likely you didn't see my go XC, though of course I was out of the tack to let him move. It is, to me (and I would assume most folks out on XC) natural to get out of the saddle. I would find it almost uncomfortable not to, but I have been lucky in my coaching and daily riding and schooling opportunities. But there were a *few* moments that, looking back, I wish had taken the opportunity of an easy time to make and schooled a bit. My horse is a spook and a half, and it would have in a few places after a good gallopy stretch (okay, cantery stretch hahahahaha) to bring him even below a show jump canter and school him in 'helLO, I am up here, tune back IN!" It would have required me to sit to do that in a few particular spots. At BN or even N, I think that's acceptable...IF you know what/when/why. It would have set us up better not to have had such a spooky jump a few strides later, or be losing our proverbial sh*t over you know, a leaf and possibly voices no one else can hear. ;) For green horses, or spooky types, or "I'm tunin' ya out" types, that CAN be a helpful tool, and I might use it should the situation present itself at these lower levels.

However, I far more wish I had had the forethought and experience to turn that on in SJ than I did on XC haha. ;)

But coordination and proper timing is the key word, and why, other than the above situation or maybe a few others, it clearly is not what you should be doing. Discouraging forward and onward is not good! I know for my individual horse, a "hey, you come back here...no? Okay, you come back here to a *dressage* canter, then, until we sort ourselves!" can work well and help a situation, but isn't the ideal. Perhaps, as suggested, a very green rider just flat out forgot. Perhaps someone transitioning from mostly riding on the flat forgot or had a hard time. Perhaps they weren't fit enough...I know plenty of people who sit because they are NOT fit enough, eventers and foxhunters both. Balance is everything, and if you are struggling with that out of the tack for 5 minutes, I wonder if you're not better off sitting at that point so as not to make it worse (if that is what you can do best). I don't think that belongs even at BN though. I honestly can't figure out why you'd stay there the WHOLE time. Now and then I DO see, but not your whole ride.

Hope this makes some sense, that I do see a reason to come down from your nice forward gallop and school a bit if you have to, but that should be a tool. It doesn't sound to me like that applies in the situation you speak of, but I suppose I can hope? ;)

I do like reading your observations of what you see around us! Thanks for making me think.

[lstevenson]

lstevenson, I am thankful, then, that while our little group of amatuers are in the minority, they are all obviously well taught, since they all get their butts out the saddle and jump in apporpriately length stirrups. Why is there SO much bad teaching?? Especially in THIS area, where there is an overabundance of incredible trainers...and NOT just BNTs eitherr!


YB, when I lived up in your area a few years back, I knew of many "trainers" there that taught riders to sit the whole way around on x-c. They were taught it was "safer".

There was a girl at my barn in Leesburg who would trailer to someone she 'thought' was a good trainer, and this lady would have her doing just as you mention, sitting the whole way around when jumping x-c, with too long stirrups. And of course unknowingly hitting the horse in the mouth over every jump. :no:

It does make me in awe at the generosity of horses, as their riders ask them to do things like galloping and jumping, but yet do not go with them when they do so.........yet their horses continue to prick their ears and jump for them.

I see it here too, people who are being taught to not go with the horse, ie the Phillip Dutton impersonators. ;) People, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it's the way it should be done. The average rider without his level of skill cannot easily be behind the motion without interfering with their horse.

[retreadeventer]

Well, don't yell at me Amanda...I try.
My people CAN'T ride with short stirrups and we've tried. They are uncomfortable and insecure with a shorter stirrup, and altho we try to creep them up a few holes at jump lessons, it's hard for someone who works full time, has kids, rides when they can, to do all the things that have to be done physically to be fit enough to stand in a 2 point for five minutes to jump around even a U-BN course. That's why they ride in the U's. They know they aren't good enough yet for the recognized or bigger stuff. They love this sport and have forgiving, well-trained horses who can handle a little bit of sitting rider between fences.


What I do, instead of putting them in pain, is ask them to ride in a 2 pt. a bit more - having a little workout of their own on the back of their horses either at the end or beginning of each riding session. As soon as they get up in 2 pt and realize they can't clear the saddle with their seat usually they consent to pulling up the stirrups another hole.
When they get strong enough they complain a bit less about the stirrup length. Just my observation.

I would welcome any other instructor's suggestions on getting the stirrup length up and on strength exercises for the older adult type rider to help with the comfort level of shorter stirrup length.

[RiverBendPol]

just a thought, but when I was getting into the upper levels I ran a Training 3-day (Mayfest :)) and the steeplechase school with Cathy Weischoff on Friday was my first real taste of jacking the stirrups up and letting my horses roll - I found that it carried through into the "D" phase and I let my horse move between fences and truly gallop the "breather" fences... after doing that first LF I'm SURE my x-c stirrup length made it up a few holes, and I think the same thing carried through at the other CCI's I eventually ran........

Just my .02

How do you spell BINGO! There's your answer for the "upper" levels JCW talked about. For the lower levels, riders have to be taught. They have to spend the TIME in the tack. It does not matter if they are trotting around and around in an indoor, their instructors need to jack up the irons and make them trot in their 2-point until they cry "uncle". Let them hold mane or breastplate to start but give them the FEELING of having their butts out of the saddle. Let them feel their lower backs burn, the cramps in the backs of their calves! They'll never 'get it' if they aren't forced. :) If they want to play the game they have to feel the pain. :winkgrin:
FWIW, I love short stirrups. Jimmy taught me to suck it up and get used to it. I like to ride the greenies with my stirrups up so when they pitch the inevitable fit, they can chuck me far away and not trample me!

[tcgelec]

I'm an "older" rider. I run U at BN currently. I am very comfortable in shorter stirrups, to the point that I had to force myself to lower them two holes for dressage. Some of the XC courses are in and out of wooded areas, more like a hunt course, and in those cases I am always out of the tack. However one particular venue runs the entire XC phase in a huge open field, and as my boy gets going like a freight train, sometimes I do sit between fences to steady him a little. Never at or close to an obstacle, though...

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

I'm wondering if there isn't some "top down" influence happening here too. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of hunter/jumper examples - certainly Geroge Morris talks about the ideal knee angle being 110 degrees, while I've always heard 90 degrees recommended. Some of the PH articles have featured big pros riding (on flat terrain) with too long stirrups.

And Woff is seeing it at rolex - so it's not all lack of strength or lack of access to good instruction. Could some of be from pros riding multiple horses at shows, and choosing to have more vertical thighs via longer stirrups? (Yes, that is back to lack of strength/endurance for the level, but I'm trying to brainstorm here)

I'm always shortening stirrups myself, and find that's maybe the biggest thing I can do to improve riders' body mechanics over fences, but it is interesting to understand why other people might make other suggestions

[JeanieClarke2141]

It's a widespread problem...drives me nuts too. The USEA's Instructor Certification Program addresses it well though - the "Teaching of Jumping" workshops drives home the issue of good, strong galloping position (and stirrup length as part of that discussion). There's no guarantee that instructors who take part will take it to heart (there's no way to require people to agree with the idea), but at least they get exposed to the information.

[asterix]

In terms of _how_ to teach this (and I agree, it is often not taught at all -- when I first moved to my current barn, after already going Training once and novice a bunch of times, my instructor took one look at me warming up for a xc school and started her "basic gallop position" lecture :lol:)...

I wonder how many of these folks spend time doing conditioning rides in the field? If you are doing a basic lower level sets workout at least once a week, this is a golden opportunity to get the strength and feel you need -- by the time you've done 3 3 minute canter/gallop sets on terrain WITH short stirrups once a week for 2 months, you should be strong enough to go around a novice course.

My husband, a very new rider, has resisted my insistence that he shorten his stirrups for quite a while now. He's very athletic and balanced, and has no trouble being in two point (and is NOT competing at any level, just bombing around in the fields and hopping logs)...but his stirrups have always been several holes too long. I managed to get him to shorten them once last year while "schooling" our elementary stuff...and he shook his head after 5 minutes and said "I'm going back. I feel so unbalanced!"

[note, not worth fighting with spouse over this. A student, yes. Spouse? As long as he's not falling off....]

Fast forward to this month. He has suddenly had a real breakthrough in his riding, I think just from time in the saddle. His hands are independent of his body, which is independent from his seat/legs. I shortened his stirrups a hole for a little jump school in the ring, and he not only didn't complain, but liked it.
Hah!

So I think it may have a lot to do with strength and independence of your body parts, as well as lack of proper instruction. You can't do it without BOTH of those things.

[LookinSouth]

They have to spend the TIME in the tack. It does not matter if they are trotting around and around in an indoor, their instructors need to jack up the irons and make them trot in their 2-point until they cry "uncle". Let them hold mane or breastplate to start but give them the FEELING of having their butts out of the saddle. Let them feel their lower backs burn, the cramps in the backs of their calves! They'll never 'get it' if they aren't forced. :) If they want to play the game they have to feel the pain. :winkgrin:



Exactly. If one does not have the time to develop the fitness level to go around a BN course properly in their 2pt perhaps they should just spend more time getting fit for riding rather than focusing on competing?

I think this issue is just another case of people rushing to get into the show ring and not developing strength and basics FIRST.

[magnolia73]

If one does not have the time to develop the fitness level to go around a BN course properly in their 2pt perhaps they should just spend more time getting fit for riding rather than focusing on competing?

Yeah- it is NO excuse. I'm creaky, old, ride at a HJ barn.... yet I still find a way to get up in 2-point and let my horse do some laps almost every ride. Anyone can put on a watch and canter around for 5 minutes to build up their legs. And even my hunter barn has a big field with jumps- it isn't that hard- you pull in whatever horse is out in it and go ride. The jumps are simple- logs, log piles, tires. So not much excuse for eventers to not have regular access to a place to ride that offers a place to practice cantering in two-point. And.... well, you can even shorten your stirrups and do laps of 2-point in the ring.

I'm not sure competing at eventing, at any level, is right for the weekly rider type. And it is not hard to get the strength to hold 2-point. Just make a point *every ride* to ride in 2 point a little longer.

[Jleegriffith]

I just made the girl who leases my horse buy a neck strap (hey it was only $9) because it is very important to me that you know how to stay off your horses back and out of the mouth.

I work a lot of fitness especially when out trail riding making myself get up in two point and hold it. Jumping a course w/o touching the saddle is so hard but really good practice. I always think those hunter riders are amazing for being able to ride so smooth and that us eventers could take a cue from them on how to stay soft and out of the tack at certain times.

It is also important to have a saddle that works for you! The wrong saddle and finding a balance point can become very difficult. I personally love short stirrups and feel much more secure with my stirrups short than long.

One exercise I work on a lot with experienced horses is jumping my courses at home staying in 2pt the whole time. It forces you to find your balance and give a soft ride. I also do take lessons with a h/j trainer because they are quite good at getting you up out of the saddle. I have found that some of the event trainers are super riders but do teach a more sitting down style and don't address the galloping b/w fences issue. You have to be off the horses back but you have to teach riders how to do this. Teach a few lessons out in the field and go over where they are supposed to be. Watch some videos of the really good x-c riders and show them where the adjustments are made and how they are made. Explain why you ride differently to some fences and how you have to create the different balance needed-coffin canter vs jumping a big oxer.

I ride with some pretty darn good instructors but I often have to ask to get that information out of them.

[BeverlyAStrauss]

Do you also think that saddles have something to do with it? So many of the all purpose saddles these days don't let you get short enough without your knees coming up over the flap- and at the lower levels, most people don't seem to have the good xc saddles......

It is just a thought- I was at the tack shop sitting in some different jumping saddles for a friend who needed a new saddle for xc- and we had that trouble with most of them.

I usually go up 2-3 holes for xc from my hacking around length but when I saw pics of myself I decided I need to go up even more- Lord, give me a better lower leg!

[asterix]

Oh saddles have a TON to do with it, good point!!! In the wrong saddle you will struggle and struggle to get your position right, and in a good one it should feel natural if you are basically strong and balanced.

Realistically, if you are not riding your own horse, you may not have the ability to ride in a saddle that works for you -- you are using the horse's saddle, or a school/lesson saddle. Chances are it's not helping!

[Jealoushe]

Amen is right!!

It's like people who ask for a critique 90% of the time the first thing I say is SHORTEN YOUR STIRRUPS - and they get all shocked and defensive.

Hello, there is a golden rule - dressage length - up two for stadium - up 3 for cross-country. Obviously it varies with height, saddles, legs etc but you get the idea.

Pony Club is the answer, and if people are too old for Pony Clbu then they need to get their asses to some good clinics.

[Janet]

Hello, there is a golden rule - dressage length - up two for stadium - up 3 for cross-country. Obviously it varies with height, saddles, legs etc but you get the idea.
Nowadays I have a separate saddle for dressage, but when I used one saddle for all three phases I had SIX holes difference between dressage and Cross Country.

[Janet]

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?
The same places s/he goes to school cross country and for conditioning rides.

[Janet]

Well, don't yell at me Amanda...I try.
My people CAN'T ride with short stirrups and we've tried. They are uncomfortable and insecure with a shorter stirrup, and altho we try to creep them up a few holes at jump lessons, it's hard for someone who works full time, has kids, rides when they can, to do all the things that have to be done physically to be fit enough to stand in a 2 point for five minutes to jump around even a U-BN course. That's why they ride in the U's. They know they aren't good enough yet for the recognized or bigger stuff. They love this sport and have forgiving, well-trained horses who can handle a little bit of sitting rider between fences.


What I do, instead of putting them in pain, is ask them to ride in a 2 pt. a bit more - having a little workout of their own on the back of their horses either at the end or beginning of each riding session. As soon as they get up in 2 pt and realize they can't clear the saddle with their seat usually they consent to pulling up the stirrups another hole.
When they get strong enough they complain a bit less about the stirrup length. Just my observation.

I would welcome any other instructor's suggestions on getting the stirrup length up and on strength exercises for the older adult type rider to help with the comfort level of shorter stirrup length.

Not an instructor, but after some time off I realized I had lost a lot of my "two point strength". So I spent several session where I focused JUST on that. Not "a few minutes at the beginnig or end",that WAS my ride for that day.

I find that working on two point at the WALK (without leaning on the neck nor pulliing back on the neck strap or reins) is actually the most effective. I time myself as I do it "as long as I can". Then sit for a bit and then try to do it for 15 seconds longer the next time, and so on. DO it up and down hill, not just on the flat.

Another time I would work just on the two point trot (for instance, on a trail ride). Once I have the strength for the walk and trot 2 point, the canter 2 point is easy from a strength perspective, and I just have to work on my coordination.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm wondering if there isn't some "top down" influence happening here too. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of hunter/jumper examples - certainly Geroge Morris talks about the ideal knee angle being 110 degrees, while I've always heard 90 degrees recommended. Some of the PH articles have featured big pros riding (on flat terrain) with too long stirrups.




110 and 90 degree are actually talking about the same length stirrups. It is a 90 degree angle in your knee when you are sitting....and 110 degree angle in your knee when you are in two point....same length of stirrup, the angle is just measured at different times.

I usually ride a bit short....it is easier for me to stay on a buck or spook in short stirrups than long. But I think most of the issue people are seeing is probably more just plain lack of balance or lack of fitness rather than poor instruction....and some times nerves can make it worse.

[Janet]

110 and 90 degree are actually talking about the same length stirrups. It is a 90 degree angle in your knee when you are sitting....and 110 degree angle in your knee when you are in two point....same length of stirrup, the angle is just measured at different times..
Yes, but if you look at the pictures where Jimmy SAYS it is a "90 degree angle" it is clearly more than 90 degrees. All you have to do is hold the corner of a piece of paper against the picture to see that.

[RiverBendPol]

Haha, I just remembered something. Way back in the day, when I rode Jumpers, say 1968-1973, I sent a photo in to Practical Horseman for George Morris to critique. Actually, I sent the pic in about 1978...They printed it. He said, among other things, "This is a good rider getting bad advice about stirrup length." That's when the bottom of the iron hit the ankle bone. I started cranking the irons up then and they are still going up :)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yes, but if you look at the pictures where Jimmy SAYS it is a "90 degree angle" it is clearly more than 90 degrees. All you have to do is hold the corner of a piece of paper against the picture to see that.


never bothered to do that....Jimmy usually says it is about a 90 degree angle when the rider is sitting in the saddle with their foot resting in the stirrup (and says that he and George are roughly talking about the same length of stirrup).....but he focuses the adjustment on having the stirrup bar hit at or above your ankle bone. And for xc at Prelim and up or show jumping bigger fences....you go shorter (one or two holes). Or if your horse has a big jump or big buck...you go shorter. And for conditioning gallops....you go shorter.

You also have to adjust things depending on your conformation...and build of your horse. The angles etc....are just guide lines. My angle is more accute when sitting in the saddle....and even Jimmy sometimes thinks I'm too short when I'm just sitting there....until he sees me in two point. Then they are fine....but my build requires me to ride a bit shorter.

[mvp]

We will be devoured by locusts or a big plague in the end, but before then...

Land needed to learn to ride XC and *get fit enough to maintain a two point* will disappear.

Then every man, woman, and child will have a full-time job that prevents them from putting in enough saddle time.

The horse world will "industrialize" such that every rider has a trainer, and every trainer tries to make competition accessible to her rider. They'll do what they have to do and allow for compromises in rider skill and fitness.

That having been said, the build of horse and rider do affect the length of stirrup or distance between booty and saddle in a decent half seat. I'm "short on wide" so my tushy stays closer to his back and my knee more open than Jimmy or George would want.

But I'm dedicated to my horse. I did grow up foxhunting and eventing, so I know a) that I need to maintain a half seat that makes my horse's job easy and b) that it takes more time and fitness than I have as a W-2 ammy.

I'm pretty clear: The ball is in my court and I just need to go to the damned gym or spend riding time working on my own fitness. The best thing I can suggest is that trainers make their rider's aware of the same obligation. It's not going to go away.

[lstevenson]

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?



Galloping position and technique is something every rider should learn before they are allowed to event at any level IMO. Even though you don't really gallop around a BN course, having a good galloping position is what keeps a rider balanced on uneven terrain and over the fences.

And it can be taught in the arena if there no open fields available. So there is no excuse other than bad instruction.

[RunForIt]

Not an instructor, but after some time off I realized I had lost a lot of my "two point strength". So I spent several session where I focused JUST on that. Not "a few minutes at the beginnig or end",that WAS my ride for that day.

I find that working on two point at the WALK (without leaning on the neck nor pulliing back on the neck strap or reins) is actually the most effective. I time myself as I do it "as long as I can". Then sit for a bit and then try to do it for 15 seconds longer the next time, and so on. DO it up and down hill, not just on the flat.

Another time I would work just on the two point trot (for instance, on a trail ride). Once I have the strength for the walk and trot 2 point, the canter 2 point is easy from a strength perspective, and I just have to work on my coordination.

this is exactly what I had to do this spring - was so frustrated cause it seemed impossible now, where before I had to take off so much time with Rasta's ailments, 2-pt was just "there"; was thinking my leg strength would NEVER return...Becky Holder had me do walk-trot-walk-trot -then halt-go again transitions in 2 pt last week...the long walk hacks in 2-pt with me moaning and groaning and grabbing my neck strap paid off...sorta :cool:.

I find it easier to ride with shorter stirrups AFTER I make myself raise them - then lowering the damn things becomes the issue. Thanks for your rant YB!

[easyklc]

I'm a total smurf with an instructor that would never allow me to be sitting in the tack when I am jumping. Period. It is the reason I am still working my ass off at the moment. It is the only way to learn to be balanced, safe and out of your horses way so they can do the job. When I had the first experience of being up off my horse's back and letting her gallop to the jumps I was astounded at how much safer I felt. I can't shove my feet bottoms at the fences if my stirrups are even one hole too long. I just physically can't do it and the inevitable happens. Leg goes back, heels come up and my upper body drifts too far forward...and it's the reason I have come off my greenie every time.

[Gry2Yng]

AMEN!

This is a huge pet peeve of mine too! It is entirely due to instructors who don't know what they are doing, which unfortunately seems to be the majority nowadays.

Sometimes even a good instructor can yell - "Get your @$$ out of the tack!" until he/she is blue and the rider either can't because they need to spend more time in the two point and the instructor only sees them once a week, but none the less reminds them they need to practice two point or they don't listen or they don't want to.

Don't lay it all at the feet of the instructors. An instructor can only tell you what to do to be a better rider. They can't MAKE you do it.

ETA: Long ago, Jim Graham used to make us raise the stirrups to the top hole on our leathers for every conditioning gallop. This will really teach you balance. That being said, I have long legs and there were about 12 holes between my jumping length and the top. I was in my early 30's at the time and would whine up a storm in the evening, until one of the 18 year old working students told me to stop being so literal, 5 holes was more than enough. Duh!

[flyingchange]

Yes, the horses are such forgiving and generous creatures. I saw a girl sitting the gallop between fences at Maryland last year - on the Training course. She had a perfect dressage seat between the fences. It was very strange to me. I had never noticed anyone riding across XC like that.

Something else I notice is riders goosing their horses at every stride in the gallop - their rear ends hitting the saddle every stride. Lots of time this is occurring on OTTBs - and so the OTTB and the rider are in a wrestling match. The rider keeps goosing the OTTB on with his butt - so the OTTB tries to gallop on faster. Rider is all "this horse needs more bit!!!" when really all they need to do is stop banging their horse's back at every stride on XC (and stop pulling).

[Meredith Clark]

I like to ride the greenies with my stirrups up so when they pitch the inevitable fit, they can chuck me far away and not trample me!

:lol:

I had a trainer that told me to shorten my stirrups for that reason, it went along with his reasoning for me to have more impulsion toward the fence "that way if the horse crashes into the fence you will be flung forward and away from the falling horse.. there by not getting crushed!"

It wasn't as comforting as he thought it was...

[mg]

I learned to ride at a HJ barn. While the instruction there was lacking a lot, the most valuable thing I walked away with from that woman was a SOLID foundation. Every lesson was started by the students walking their horses around so they could loosen up with the students in 2-point. I had instructors at an away-camp look at my heels with their eyes popping out of their heads asking if I was double jointed because of how solid and deep my heels were. Galloping position and half-seat in general has always come very easily to me due to this fantastic foundation I grew up with.

I do blame some of this on instruction. Sure, some instructors can bring some students really far and get them to ride properly and other students will just never get it, but there are also the instructors who just don't get it themselves. When I went away for college, I started boarding at an "eventing" barn. Basically a bunch of DQs with a really cool xc course and lots of jumps and standards available. I learned dressage and finally moved up to learning xc this year so I could complete the circuit and start eventing! Our first xc lesson, my trainer told me to drop my stirrups two holes and shove my legs out in front of me in a chair seat. I was mortified. Having been a jumper kid most of my life, short stirrups are definitely my thing. I rode that way only that one lesson in order to appease her, jacked my stirrups back up afterward and decided to only take dressage lessons from her from now on.

[gold2012]

Okay, so, finally, someone else says something about it. So..here is the thing, I recently watched a former olympic rider riding a greenie around x/c. I personally thought he over faced the horse, and would imagine if I added a name, you would all agree. But....his toes were barely in the stirrup. What the heck?

My kids have thier butts up out of that saddle....I make them go around the property once a week in that postiion in trot, 15 each way. Man they are burning when done. But guess what, most of them have legs of iron. I dunno if it makes them feel more secure or what...but AMEN for the post.

Shorten up those stirrups and be a little safer, not to mention giving the horse a break.

[lstevenson]

Sometimes even a good instructor can yell - "Get your @$$ out of the tack!" until he/she is blue and the rider either can't because they need to spend more time in the two point and the instructor only sees them once a week, but none the less reminds them they need to practice two point or they don't listen or they don't want to.

Don't lay it all at the feet of the instructors. An instructor can only tell you what to do to be a better rider. They can't MAKE you do it.




Yes, many riders probably don't practice two point when they are told to.
But some riders are definitely being taught to sit all of the time. I see/hear it all of the time.

[lstevenson]

Something else I notice is riders goosing their horses at every stride in the gallop - their rear ends hitting the saddle every stride. Lots of time this is occurring on OTTBs - and so the OTTB and the rider are in a wrestling match. The rider keeps goosing the OTTB on with his butt - so the OTTB tries to gallop on faster. Rider is all "this horse needs more bit!!!" when really all they need to do is stop banging their horse's back at every stride on XC (and stop pulling).



:yes: Yep. I see this all of the time. Riders wonder why their horse gets strong. Then they lean back and waterski on the horses mouth.

[rhymeswithfizz]

Well, don't yell at me Amanda...I try.
My people CAN'T ride with short stirrups and we've tried. They are uncomfortable and insecure with a shorter stirrup, and altho we try to creep them up a few holes at jump lessons, it's hard for someone who works full time, has kids, rides when they can, to do all the things that have to be done physically to be fit enough to stand in a 2 point for five minutes to jump around even a U-BN course. That's why they ride in the U's. They know they aren't good enough yet for the recognized or bigger stuff. They love this sport and have forgiving, well-trained horses who can handle a little bit of sitting rider between fences.


What I do, instead of putting them in pain, is ask them to ride in a 2 pt. a bit more - having a little workout of their own on the back of their horses either at the end or beginning of each riding session. As soon as they get up in 2 pt and realize they can't clear the saddle with their seat usually they consent to pulling up the stirrups another hole.
When they get strong enough they complain a bit less about the stirrup length. Just my observation.

I would welcome any other instructor's suggestions on getting the stirrup length up and on strength exercises for the older adult type rider to help with the comfort level of shorter stirrup length.


You have described me to a tee: I'm a career woman with two little kids, I ride 2 days a week or 3 if I'm really lucky, I show unrecognized BN. I am coming back to eventing after a foray in hunter land, and after having a baby.

However -- frankly, I think you are not asking enough of your students. I can gallop around in short stirrups for far longer than 5 minutes (with only 2 rides a week) and I still have 20 more pounds of baby weight to lose. Your students need to put on their big girl panties and ride in those short stirrups EVERY RIDE. Warm up in them. School in them. They SHOULD be sore after every ride. That's life. They are complaining about it? Tell them to pick a different sport, like golf. Quit coddling them. If they aren't strong enough to even clear the pommel then they probably aren't strong enough to be jumping.

[Aspire2JumpHigher]

Unless a rider foxhunts, where will s/he learn to gallop in the usual course of lessons?


I don’t foxhunt, but my trainer certainly taught me the importance of a gallop seat when out on course. She made me practice in ring between stadium jumps, and we spent a lot of time practicing in circles on a lounge or just around the arena. :D

Even without lesson help; I’ve traveled around with her and other knowledgeable riders where I picked up the dos and don’ts of course riding.

I just think it’s a no brainer…but then again maybe it’s the training I’ve had. :winkgrin:

[Blugal]

I saw some riders doing this at Burghley. At the time I said, "My coach would murder me if she saw me doing that!" If a rider can't keep themselves out of the saddle while cantering/galloping, they are off XC schooling until they can.

There's also such as thing as mane and a neck strap, if you were to get tired at the end of the course...

[Aspire2JumpHigher]

Maybe I’m alone on this…but I kind of feel like part of the whole training process is building enough endurance to ride through an entire course without having to sit your gallop.

I suppose I just wouldn’t feel prepared if I couldn’t at least do that much to help my horse. (Of course there are always extenuating circumstances which may impact your endurance ability at the time of the ride.) Heck though…why put your horse through all that if you can’t even try to make it a little easier on them. :eek:

[Late]

Maybe I’m alone on this…but I kind of feel like part of the whole training process is building enough endurance to ride through an entire course without having to sit your gallop.

I suppose I just wouldn’t feel prepared if I couldn’t at least do that much to help my horse. (Of course there are always extenuating circumstances which may impact your endurance ability at the time of the ride.) Heck though…why put your horse through all that if you can’t even try to make it a little easier on them. :eek:

while I agree with you for the most part, I also have to say that even a lack of endurance isn't much of an excuse (unless you're going all the way up to steeplechase/jockey length stirrups). It's as simple as teaching riders to bridge their reins, grab mane, or even grab a neck strap. Obviously this doesn't fix it all, but it gives greener and less fit riders a good sense of freeing up the horses back. I used to use my galloping lanes as a "rest" out on course... lean down on the neck a bit and just let it roll.

I have fond memories of "hand galloping" around our indoor during the winter after wheeling it so we could get a feel for pace. It also got us comfortable with getting up out of the saddle and letting the horses move out in a very controlled, stable environment. surprising how well that "feel" translated into riding across country ;).

[Ride2Dreams]

As a disclaimer in my "glory days" (ie 8-9 years ago) I was competing Training and training Prelim. I know what is right and what is wrong and what I need to work on.

That said... Currently on a greenbean horse after taking 4 years off of riding I am back to beginner novice without complaints. I have worked on my two point, have the strength for it however... Have a horse that when she gets "exuberant" on the field she GOES and a bit just makes her pissy and throw a tantrum. The only way to currently get her in control is to sit back, make her lift the shoulder and do itty bitty half halts while remaining balanced IN the saddle. And as of this year.. I have (for shame) brought this nifty (and I know bad) trick into some schooling 3-phase events. If you're riding around Mass and seeing this young adult around the course sitting in the tack with a bay mare with a giant blaze.. don't scream at me. At least give a little nod that my stirrups are the right length and the ride is controlled.

Even while I do this I do NOT promote it. My trainer and I know we have a little problem at the gallop and have been working on hand gallops in lessons now and control. The problem is getting MUCH better and I find I have to sit back and collect less and less as the months go by. I also know I will not move up from Beginner Novice until this training issue on both me and my horse is resolved (much to the relief of my instructor who was petrified I would push to be back where I was 8-9 years ago. Starting to think I like the smaller fences thank you much).

Alot of these vents and rants on this thread do not entirely know the situation or may only be seeing a small portion of the ride. Or, I am completely out of touch and this is happening more then I am understanding at higher levels.

[lstevenson]

That said... Currently on a greenbean horse after taking 4 years off of riding I am back to beginner novice without complaints. I have worked on my two point, have the strength for it however... Have a horse that when she gets "exuberant" on the field she GOES and a bit just makes her pissy and throw a tantrum. The only way to currently get her in control is to sit back, make her lift the shoulder and do itty bitty half halts while remaining balanced IN the saddle. And as of this year.. I have (for shame) brought this nifty (and I know bad) trick into some schooling 3-phase events. If you're riding around Mass and seeing this young adult around the course sitting in the tack with a bay mare with a giant blaze.. don't scream at me. At least give a little nod that my stirrups are the right length and the ride is controlled.

Even while I do this I do NOT promote it. My trainer and I know we have a little problem at the gallop and have been working on hand gallops in lessons now and control. The problem is getting MUCH better and I find I have to sit back and collect less and less as the months go by. I also know I will not move up from Beginner Novice until this training issue on both me and my horse is resolved (much to the relief of my instructor who was petrified I would push to be back where I was 8-9 years ago. Starting to think I like the smaller fences thank you much).

Alot of these vents and rants on this thread do not entirely know the situation or may only be seeing a small portion of the ride. Or, I am completely out of touch and this is happening more then I am understanding at higher levels.


Your situation is probably why some do sit, but again it goes back to a lack of proper instruction IMO. Your horse would most likely be easier to control at the gallop once you learn how control the horses speed at the gallop while staying off of her back, ie the way you control race horses. It is a simple technique that anyone can learn.

[yventer]

Once my students are reasonably secure, I start asking them to "double post". This is a term for an exercise instructors have been using for a great many years, but describes the action very well. My students are told to keep their balance during the exercize and if they find that difficult, to keep trying to find a position that works. And I'm there with them to make suggestions! But the point is to find a whole body awareness, and that can't really be taught, only enabled. Without exception, my students find an awareness of what I've been trying to teach about the secure lower leg and its effect on upper body stability.

How does that translate to this thread? Well, once my students can "double post" on command to variations such as "7 post, 3 up, 3 post, 7 up", I know that in combination with their flatwork, jumping courses, and grid lines that they must have *some* kind of secure leg base and sense of balance on the horse!

And from that, we can start talking about riding XC at a meaningful level.

I'll certainly allow or even encourage reasonably competent beginner riders to go XC in an unrecognized situation before that, but only if they can "stick" with their horse over an awkward jump, and let go the reins if necessary. If less than 50% of their jumps are "ugly" (not dangerous or hurtful), I'll let them go on. But we're talking about 18" unrecognized or lower here! And I'll have a discussion with them afterwards about what was good and what was bad. I won't allow my students to go at ANY level, even unrecognized, if they are, in my opinion unsafe or hurtful.

[BarbB]

Well, don't yell at me Amanda...I try.
My people CAN'T ride with short stirrups and we've tried. They are uncomfortable and insecure with a shorter stirrup, and altho we try to creep them up a few holes at jump lessons, it's hard for someone who works full time, has kids, rides when they can, to do all the things that have to be done physically to be fit enough to stand in a 2 point for five minutes to jump around even a U-BN course. That's why they ride in the U's. They know they aren't good enough yet for the recognized or bigger stuff. They love this sport and have forgiving, well-trained horses who can handle a little bit of sitting rider between fences.


What I do, instead of putting them in pain, is ask them to ride in a 2 pt. a bit more - having a little workout of their own on the back of their horses either at the end or beginning of each riding session. As soon as they get up in 2 pt and realize they can't clear the saddle with their seat usually they consent to pulling up the stirrups another hole.
When they get strong enough they complain a bit less about the stirrup length. Just my observation.

I would welcome any other instructor's suggestions on getting the stirrup length up and on strength exercises for the older adult type rider to help with the comfort level of shorter stirrup length.

Me too. I am working with an adult rider who was previously taught to sit all the time. She is getting more comfortable cantering in 2 point but it is a change and her riding time is limited. We are doing the hunter classes at schooling shows, which is helping as the cross country riding time is also very limited.

[yellowbritches]

Your situation is probably why some do sit, but again it goes back to a lack of proper instruction IMO. Your horse would most likely be easier to control at the gallop once you learn how control the horses speed at the gallop while staying off of her back, ie the way you control race horses. It is a simple technique that anyone can learn.
Agreed. My horse gets quite strong on cross country, but I don't need to sit to keep him in the correct rhythm. I was taught to bury my hands in his crest so he can only pull against himself, use my weight in different ways to influence his balance, stick my feet further forward if he's really tanking off, and all of that is without my butt touching the saddle. Not that I don't sit, ever, on cross country, but it is only when the set up for a fence makes it necessary.

Glad to see SO MUCH great discussion on this topic!

[GotSpots]

YB just made a great point - when riding XC, there are times that you want to sit and/or sink into the tack, depending on the terrain and the question presented. There are alot of XC jumps that I would never jump out of a pure 2-point position (going into a coffin with terrain, for example, or into water), but would want to be closer to the tack on the approach. While I completely agree that you want to be out of the tack and letting them gallop along in between fences (crusing mode, as my coach says), I think we have to be careful in this discussion to differentiate between that and setting up for a fence and/or using your weight and seat effectively when necessary.

[scubed]

And on the greenies, while I have no problem controlling tempo in a 2 point (I did gallop the race horses in my much younger days), I find that sometimes sitting in a more "dressage" seat makes it much easier to shift their balance uphill. I also have been taught (by ULRs) that on a horse that might stop, sitting in the tack a using seat and legs for the last 5 or so strides to the fence is always appropriate (with a soft rein, not waterskiing). I am certainly fit enough to gallop in 2 point for as long as I want and was also "blessed" with the opportunity to do the Jim Graham exercise described by Gry2yng. I do a lot of my hacking and hill work in 2 point at the trot (which I think is harder than the canter). We were at one starter event and joking that there should be a requirement for sending in a video clip of cantering across field with entry, given the number of people who were walking the entire elementary course. I think part of the issue is that people start showing much earlier in their training than used to be the case. We used to do some little hunter shows, etc, but where I came up, you weren't allowed to go to a show at all until you could canter (on any of the school horses/ponies) a 2'6" course.

[InVA]

I so very rarely ranting and raving on a public forum is very necessary or even useful, but I have something to say.....


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHORTEN YOUR STIRRUPS AND GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THE SADDLE BETWEEN FENCES ON CROSS COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been astounded by the number of riders I see riding with nearly dressage length stirrups over fences and who's asses are seemingly GLUED to the tack on cross country! Who is teaching these people and why does no one seem to have a CLUE about galloping position?!?!? It is most prevalent at training and below, but I've seen it at prelim more than I feel comfortable with this year, too. I was at the unrec today at Fair Hill with our kid and her pony and watched rider after rider after rider go by with stirrups 4 holes to long and sitting in the saddle. MY rider, in her THIRD SHOW EVER and second time on a competitive cross country course got up out of the tack and "galloped on" between the fences...and she was the only one I saw ALL DAY. I would like to chock it up to the unrec/lower level riders, but every event I've been to this spring (more rec than not), this is what I've seen. :no::mad:

What is this all about!?!

PS- I know I'm not imagining it either, since it is heavily discussed in our barn and we all groan when walking xc (and the kid, who is soooo new to all this can see it now and comments on it before I even do), and it has been discussed with other GOOD trainers when running into them on course walks.


well said yellowbritches! This drives me up a freaking WALL. it is bad riding plain and simple

[Adamantane]

Apropos Jeannette's and others' comments and speculations, if it has become fashionable or commonplace (?) at the very highest levels to have longer stirrups than in past years, logic demands there must be an underlying rationale, not just whimsy or a sudden patch of collective ineptitude.

It may prove to be a dumb reason, but significant changes to long-ingrained patterns by highly accomplished professionals don't just fall out of the sky, whether they involve riding or cooking or oil painting.:no:

Has anybody ever actually asked why of the high-level people who are doing it?

[bip]

Has anybody ever actually asked why of the high-level people who are doing it?

Not on this thread yet. Mostly just people clamoring to insist that THEY would never do it.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Has anybody ever actually asked why of the high-level people who are doing it?


lack of good instruction....;)

Honestly....I've not seen lots of the really good riders sitting on their horses between fences or riding with way long stirrups (oh...being an UL rider alone doesn't always make someone a really good rider IME). But I'm also not the most observant person either:D


But there is NO worse feeling in the world than not being fit enough out on a xc course....been there...done that...trying hard not to ever repeat it. It is the most unsafe I've ever felt on the back of a horse....more unsafe than when I've sat on unbroke green beans (who are easier to stay on with short stirrups...especially when they start bucking!) or been dead run away with on a crazy fox hunter. So if there are trainers out there coddling their students....stop it. They don't have time to ride more....sure I understand that....do they have time to do some squats...or wall sits? If even *I* can find time for that....anyone can. And if they can't get themselves safely stronger.....then eventing and possibly jumping may not be the sport for them.

[the lady of shalott]

hmmm this really makes me wonder about my stirrup length. I personally prefer a really short stirrup, and I love to ride in 2-point even when I'm not in shape=] Somehow I find it a lot easier than sitting. I can't imagine sitting on a cross-country course, unless like someone else said they were being really spooky and you had to really drive with your seat. Anyways, I actually punched holes in my leathers, (I'm 5'6 but its all in my torso I swear!) so I *think* my stirrups are short enough?

[Late]

Has anybody ever actually asked why of the high-level people who are doing it?

no but I wish I could... I did touch on why I think some of the upper level riders are doing it, though - I think it's more backlash from the loss of the long format and the fact that course design is so completely different from how it used to be. Obviously there are many other facets to this, but just as others have said in more recent posts on this thread, you do want to be closer to the tack for those "coffin" type combos, and we are seeing many more elements in courses nowadays ridden in that same "coffin canter" - more time spent sitting on courses now anyhow, less of a 'need' to put up the stirrups and let the horses roll if you feel you're going to be sitting for almost half the course anyhow!

not that I condone it, just my own speculation.

...when I was getting into the upper levels I ran a Training 3-day (Mayfest ) and the steeplechase school with Cathy Weischoff on Friday was my first real taste of jacking the stirrups up and letting my horses roll - I found that it carried through into the "D" phase and I let my horse move between fences and truly gallop the "breather" fences...

[hb]

maybe I'm imagining this but I swear I heard the commentators on the Rolex feed talk about this and one said that it was a newer style of riding, and that the riders were adjusting their balance by moving their hips forward rather then opening and closing their upper body angle. Does anyone else remember that?

[Janet]

maybe I'm imagining this but I swear I heard the commentators on the Rolex feed talk about this and one said that it was a newer style of riding, and that the riders were adjusting their balance by moving their hips forward rather then opening and closing their upper body angle. Does anyone else remember that?
Philip Dutton rides in a more "upright" position, and others try to copy him, but
A - He is still definitely OUT of the saddle
B - Not many other people can do it well.

[yellowbritches]

no but I wish I could... I did touch on why I think some of the upper level riders are doing it, though - I think it's more backlash from the loss of the long format and the fact that course design is so completely different from how it used to be. Obviously there are many other facets to this, but just as others have said in more recent posts on this thread, you do want to be closer to the tack for those "coffin" type combos, and we are seeing many more elements in courses nowadays ridden in that same "coffin canter" - more time spent sitting on courses now anyhow, less of a 'need' to put up the stirrups and let the horses roll if you feel you're going to be sitting for almost half the course anyhow!

not that I condone it, just my own speculation.
Seriously?? We can blame a lot of stuff on the loss of the long format, but bad riding, especially at the lower levels, has NOTHING to do with the loss of the long format. It is just bad riding being taught by bad coaches...or bad riding with no instruction at all. And, if anything, the disgusting trend in course design really requires riders to get up out of the saddle and racehorse and jockey GALLOP between those complexes.

I don't think the long stirrups/bad riding is a trend at the upper levels, I think it is just bad riding by people who have horses who should be canonized (I can think of a couple of "UL" riders that I've seen make training level mistakes at Rolex). The good riders, who are good riders and good coaches (and a few of the people we run into who join us in our "what's with the bad riding" pow wows), ride properly, if not in their own style, ala PD.

[FrittSkritt]

In the case of ULRs, I also think it's a matter of them riding multiple (and I mean 5, 6, even 7) horses at one event, and the amount of physical exertion it takes to do that many XC rides in one day is hard on the legs. (Although I think if exercise riders can ride that many horses in stirrups even SHORTER than that, then there's no reason why ULRs can't. :winkgrin:)

I'm not saying they're not in shape, but I suspect that may be a reason why they're not riding as short as they should be. IIRC, Jimmy Wofford wrote in one of his columns about galloping position that a lot of ULRs at Rolex had longer stirrups simply because they're not fit enough to ride at the proper length for 10+ minutes.

[Late]

Seriously??


Yes. It made sense at the time I wrote it. Take it for what it's worth, and if that's nothing then oh well. :yes:

[Adamantane]

Has anybody ever actually asked why of the high-level people who are doing it?

no but I wish I could...

Well why not just do it then?

These people aren't gods and they all have telephones. Some have published direct personal e-mail addresses or can be e-mailed through their associated farms.

True, not everyone is as accessible as, e.g., Denny, makes himself, but I doubt any of them would hang up if someone polite, respectful, knowledgeable and intelligent phoned or e-mailed and asked a few well-prepared open-hearted sincere questions in the spirit of trying to learn.

I can't do it because I know my limitations and these nuances are far beyond my knowledge or competence. (I probably could ask the questions okay, but would not be able to clearly grasp the answers or follow up for clarification appropriately.) But if it were not, then I would. You would be surprised who in the world is willing to answer questions, even at great length, if they are approached in the way I suggest.

[Grasshopper]

RE exercises to help strengthen--wall sitting, squats, lunges, and core exercises.

Gotta run to the post office, more later, but those helped me when I was trying to improve my fitness to foxhunt last winter--can we say 4 hours of hunting, on long coyote runs, trying to stay out of the saddle most of the time?! :eek:

[wildlifer]

1. It's "U" so there isn't going to be an "A-Game" atmosphere and lots of people use those kinds of events to just learn/flop around for fun or whatever which means it will likely attract folks who don't quite have it together as riders but really need to get experience in order to figure it out.

Yikes, I ride unrecognized and it's as serious as all get out to me, it just costs less. I don't go to flop around. Heck, I showed over 18 inch XC jumps and I trotted everything but anytime I cantered I was out of the saddle.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU, etr, for saying this. I am sick and tired of folks who have money to chuck around looking down their noses at unrecognized events. Sorry, I can't afford to pay umpteen million fees to enter recognized events and I'm not a point chaser, so I do and will continue to compete quality unrec. events just as seriously as richer folks. And you better bet I'm deadly serious about it and do it with good equitation too, thank you very much. There is no flopping or "whatever"!

[Brandy76]

This is exactly what I saw at FHI unreg last weekend. Went to walk the n course - I am moving up (oh boy!) from intor to BN, so I walked the n, then the bn - little mind game I play, but it works. So. I was out on course for awhile.

i could not believe the number of people who rode bang, bang on thier horses's back. I don't mean a light touch from fatigue, I mean slamming the horse every stride.

One girl was SLAMMING her horses' back, and yanking on the reins with every stride. One girl rode as though completely upright and sitting in the tack - the whole way.

And forgive me, flame suit on, but I saw way too many young, overweight (not a little), unfit girls. I would never slam anyone about their weight, and I hope that's not what this sounds like, but really.

On the other hand I know several "rubenesque" riders who are AWESOME, fit riders, so it's not really about the weight.

[LookinSouth]

I just wanted to say THANK YOU, etr, for saying this. I am sick and tired of folks who have money to chuck around looking down their noses at unrecognized events. Sorry, I can't afford to pay umpteen million fees to enter recognized events and I'm not a point chaser, so I do and will continue to compete quality unrec. events just as seriously as richer folks. And you better bet I'm deadly serious about it and do it with good equitation too, thank you very much. There is no flopping or "whatever"!


Quite frankly I have to agree. It is rather annoying when people assume that those who choose to compete unrec. are not as serious or dedicated riders. When I was competing it was all unrec because that was in the budget. My other option was to take FEWER lessons/clinics and ride recognized. Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me to do that since riding at Rolex isn't in my future:lol:. That said, I took my competing very seriously and even on XC at the elementary & BN level was out of the tack in between fences.
I also rode regularly with a h/j/eq trainer to keep my equitation in check and would have been horrified to be "flopping around". I've also volunteered a fair share at rec. events and the riding I've seen at the same levels (BN/N ) isn't any better. Lower level riders are lower level riders.

[quietann]

When my eventing friend decided I needed to learn how to gallop, the first thing she said was "shorten your stirrups 2 holes" and they were already pretty short! Then she showed me how to bridge my reins and how to deal if the horse started leaning on my hands (one of his favorite things to do at the gallop) without sitting down and slamming his back. Our first gallop was also up a gentle hill, and that got me up and out of the saddle even more.

But I have pretty good balance, even as I was at the time -- an unfit, somewhat overweight re-rider. So our first gallop, and those following it, were successful.

My friend's been riding since she was 3 and is now in her early 40s, has evented up to Prelim in the past (and is headed that way again, now that she has a horse who's up to it), and she's not a small woman at all -- but darnit if she can't get right up out of that saddle at a gallop! At her most recent event, not quite as much -- but she was 9 weeks post-hysterectomy so she cut herself some slack. She's not an instructor, but she has eventing clue and shared it with me :)

As for overweight girls -- there are a lot out there; remember that the rate of childhood obesity is increasing rather alarmingly. BUT if they're riding, they're getting exercise, and some of them will get clue and build strength whether they lose weight or not.

[yellowbritches]

I just wanted to say THANK YOU, etr, for saying this. I am sick and tired of folks who have money to chuck around looking down their noses at unrecognized events. Sorry, I can't afford to pay umpteen million fees to enter recognized events and I'm not a point chaser, so I do and will continue to compete quality unrec. events just as seriously as richer folks. And you better bet I'm deadly serious about it and do it with good equitation too, thank you very much. There is no flopping or "whatever"!
Please, please, please read my first post and couple of posts AFTER that one. I am in no way, shape, or form looking down my nose at unrecognized events. The point I was trying to make was that this WASN'T just at the unrecognized events I go to (which is a fraction of the recognized events I go to), but, in fact, almost entirely the recognized events even up through prelim. What I am pointing out is the terrible quality of riding I'm seeing, definitely at the lower levels (rec and not rec), but even up through the upper levels. This isn't a "unrecognized events breed bad riding" (though, admittedly, I was shocked at the amount of bad riding I saw last weekend...but no more shocked than at recognized stuff, even less so since I don't expect the best quality riding there, since it is an intro to the sport) rant. This is a "what the hell is up with all the bad riding I'm seeing, even in places I sure as hell better NOT be seeing it" rant.

[vineyridge]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and have come up with some speculations about possibly why.

1) There is such a thing as the American style of riding--forward seat or Caprilli seat. When we adopted that style, the rider's balance was radically changed from what was the "old" hunt seat style of riding. Hunt seat used longer stirrup, and the rider's balance was farther back--over the back instead of over the withers when galloping. As far as I know, the Brits and their cousins the Aussies and New Zealanders did not universally adopt the forward seat for cross country riding and jumping as we did for quite a few decades.

2) I've been looking at a huge number of photos of Cheltenham Gold Cup steeplechase rides covering a period of fifty years or more to today. In just about every single one of the photographs the steeplechase jocks ride their flat fences that way eventers ride drops. The steeplechase jocks are forward in the upward arc, and then get in the back seat and slip their reins on the downward trajectory. Why this is preferable to staying more centered, I have no idea, but since they do it so consistently, there must be a reason. I do know that the ODCGs teaching Americans taught something very different as witness the photos of American style riders over jumps from the old days.

3) I have not seen photos of American steeplechase jocks adopting the exaggerated British technique for jumps race riding, but I haven't seen nearly as many photos of them coming down for a landing.

So now I wondering if this isn't a case of the current American instructors and riders emulating the Brits and down under riders who never adopted the Caprilli seat for XC in the first place and stayed with the old style hunt seat. Problem is, as so many of you have mentioned, that the Caprilli seat is much easier on the horse; and riding old style would seem to me to require much rider strength to keep out of the horse's way when galloping and jumping.

Maybe what we are all seeing is Americans giving up their national style and imitating what works for our English speaking cousins.

[rhymeswithfizz]

I *like* my stirrups short. During my foray into hunter land, I had a HJ trainer try to lengthen my stirrups (for one lesson) to improve that "hunter look". I am 5'11" and my legs are very long - I was reluctant but told him I would try it. Let's just say it was a DISASTER - I could not hit a spot to save my life. Trainer, to his credit, promised never to try to lengthen my stirrups again. :D

[lstevenson]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and have come up with some speculations about possibly why.

1) There is such a thing as the American style of riding--forward seat or Caprilli seat. When we adopted that style, the rider's balance was radically changed from what was the "old" hunt seat style of riding. Hunt seat used longer stirrup, and the rider's balance was farther back--over the back instead of over the withers when galloping. As far as I know, the Brits and their cousins the Aussies and New Zealanders did not universally adopt the forward seat for cross country riding and jumping as we did for quite a few decades.

2) I've been looking at a huge number of photos of Cheltenham Gold Cup steeplechase rides covering a period of fifty years or more to today. In just about every single one of the photographs the steeplechase jocks ride their flat fences that way eventers ride drops. The steeplechase jocks are forward in the upward arc, and then get in the back seat and slip their reins on the downward trajectory. Why this is preferable to staying more centered, I have no idea, but since they do it so consistently, there must be a reason. I do know that the ODCGs teaching Americans taught something very different as witness the photos of American style riders over jumps from the old days.

3) I have not seen photos of American steeplechase jocks adopting the exaggerated British technique for jumps race riding, but I haven't seen nearly as many photos of them coming down for a landing.

So now I wondering if this isn't a case of the current American instructors and riders emulating the Brits and down under riders who never adopted the Caprilli seat for XC in the first place and stayed with the old style hunt seat. Problem is, as so many of you have mentioned, that the Caprilli seat is much easier on the horse; and riding old style would seem to me to require much rider strength to keep out of the horse's way when galloping and jumping.

Maybe what we are all seeing is Americans giving up their national style and imitating what works for our English speaking cousins.


The British style is definitely to be more in the back seat, with the rider's center of gravity more back, but they are STILL completely off of the horse's back. Same with the 'chase jockeys.

But in fact I know of a rider who "thinks" that she is emulating the British, Lucinda Green in particular, who was the master at being a nickel behind the motion while still going with the horse. But this person does NOT go with the horse, and catches the horse in the mouth over every jump.

So if there is truth to the fact that some are trying to emulate the European styles, it's a real shame that they don't have proper instruction to make that work.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I'm not seeing tons of good riders riding with long stirrups and sitting on their horse's backs....which was what the OP was ranting about.

What the OP and others have described are riders getting in their way of their horses. And at the ULs....there are pleanty of riders who might not be flopping around like a novice but who could improve their galloping positions and jumping positions...and become more effective and efficient (which is what I think Jimmy and others are screaming about)....and many who are working to do just that. You don't stop learning and improving just because you ride at those levels....and the good ones are always trying to get even better.

But now we have a lot of UL riders who are trying to make a living with horses....and unfortunately, like for many of us who ride a desk....work can get in the way of improving your riding!!!!!

[vineyridge]

The British style is definitely to be more in the back seat, with the rider's center of gravity more back, but they are STILL completely off of the horse's back. Same with the 'chase jockeys.So true. But it would seem to me that riding that way would require much more strength to stay off the horse's back than riding with the balance over the withers, which seems more natural when you're riding with short stirrups. In any case, I would argue that no one should try and gallop XC until an independent seat is attained. Jane Marshall Dillon wouldn't let her students attempt to jump until they could ride at all gaits without reins and stirrups and be stable in galloping position without reins and stirrups.

There are NO shortcuts to a strong, independent seat.

[quietann]

... could ride at all gaits without reins and stirrups and be stable in galloping position without reins and stirrups.


Hm, is it physically *possible* to ride a horse in galloping position without stirrups? I've certainly done posting trot W/O but it seems to me that galloping position without stirrups would require one to levitate above the horse, or grip really hard with the knees...

[Ajierene]

Hm, is it physically *possible* to ride a horse in galloping position without stirrups? I've certainly done posting trot W/O but it seems to me that galloping position without stirrups would require one to levitate above the horse, or grip really hard with the knees...

OBVIOUSLY your seat is not good enough if you have not figure out how to levitate above your horse when in galloping position without stirrups.....

Geesh!

[LexInVA]

Geesh!

:lol:

[yellowbritches]

Hm, is it physically *possible* to ride a horse in galloping position without stirrups? I've certainly done posting trot W/O but it seems to me that galloping position without stirrups would require one to levitate above the horse, or grip really hard with the knees...
Go watch the video of Mark Todd at Burghley or Badminton when his stirrup leather broke. He won that year. Andrew Nicholson, too, more recently, I want to say Athens Olympics maybe. There's been a few others, but nothing tops Toddy at Badminton!!! I think it should be a must watch for all event riders.

[Blugal]

Actually, Mark's horse didn't pass the vet on Sunday. They won it the following year.

[yellowbritches]

Actually, Mark's horse didn't pass the vet on Sunday. They won it the following year.
You're right. I was confusing it with another horse. And Andrew Nicholson's stirrup-less performance was at Jerez, I think, not Athens (because I think he biffed at Athens).

[crosscreeksh]

In this era of instant gradification...many riders want to learn to "compete" before they learn to "ride". It is the instructors job to teach them the riding skills they need to ride correctly. If someone has an office job, responsibilities at home, is unfit for what ever reason then their goal should be to get fit and learn to ride right...before they start sending in entry fees. You stand on your feet to walk around all day...why should it be so hard to learn to stand up in your stirrups? Balance comes from a well positioned foot in the stirrup with your weight in your heels - not by holding on with your crotch!! Think of this...if a rider couldn't sit down, would they do a dressage test in a two point until they learned to sit?? It's just as silly as the excuse that some people can't stand up in a two point!!

[LeniH]

The answer is incompetent trainers and how hard it is to weed them out. My daughter evented and when she went to college I couldn't bear selling the horse so started to learn to ride. Her trainer trained me to have a driving seat, never in two point, that made the horse stop according to her. I was jumping 3 feet and oblivious to how bad my form was when I changed barns. My new trainer was appalled, my horses topline was so weak he couldn't hold a collected canter ogether for more than a few strides, I had never learned to sit the trot and was clueless about collection. On xc all I learned was to put my feet forward, brace my hands against the neck, kick, and yell go, go, go. My new trianer has spent the last few weeks having me gallop in the arena and then bring the horse down to a medium canter for the jump. But there is no yelp for trainers. My old trainer has the magical ability to have horses going to her continue to do worse while clients pay more.

[lstevenson]

The answer is incompetent trainers and how hard it is to weed them out. My daughter evented and when she went to college I couldn't bear selling the horse so started to learn to ride. Her trainer trained me to have a driving seat, never in two point, that made the horse stop according to her. I was jumping 3 feet and oblivious to how bad my form was when I changed barns. My new trainer was appalled, my horses topline was so weak he couldn't hold a collected canter ogether for more than a few strides, I had never learned to sit the trot and was clueless about collection. On xc all I learned was to put my feet forward, brace my hands against the neck, kick, and yell go, go, go. My new trianer has spent the last few weeks having me gallop in the arena and then bring the horse down to a medium canter for the jump. But there is no yelp for trainers. My old trainer has the magical ability to have horses going to her continue to do worse while clients pay more.


I see this all of the time. It's unfortunate. But good for you for finding a better instructor! :)

[Meredith Clark]

OBVIOUSLY your seat is not good enough if you have not figure out how to levitate above your horse when in galloping position without stirrups.....

Geesh!

:lol:


Go watch the video of Mark Todd at Burghley or Badminton when his stirrup leather broke. He won that year. .

I've watched his entire ride, not because I'm an avid "eventing historian" but it was on the "Thrills and Spills" video! He rides better with 1 stirrup than I'll ever ride with 2 but I still don't think that is really "riding in galloping position with no stirrups" he was obviously struggling and wasn't in a desirable position people are describing. :eek: I feel like if your legs were really strong enough to hold you up you'd be squeezing so much it would be confusing for the horse

[vineyridge]

Just wanted to clarify that when I said "stable in galloping position without reins or stirrups", that means in lessons, with a neck strap available and only for short periods of time. The purpose is to develop muscle memory of correct balance, as well as strength in the legs and groin. If you don't believe it can be done, try it bareback. :D The knees have to be the pivot point, but bareback you are not limited by saddle construction in deciding what is the best pivot point for you personally.

[enjoytheride]

I believe Mark Todd expressed that he felt his horse did not pass the jog due to him riding with the one stirrup, that it made the horse lame or sore.