Research I would like to see related to Navicular.

[Gayla]

In reading the findings of MRIs on horses diagnosed with caudal heel pain it is clear (as most people know) that the causes of heel pain are varied and xrays are poor (to useless) tools for diagnosis. This is what I would be interested in: Once a horse has been diagnosed with MRI what clinical lameness signs did it exhibit? Then a statistical analysis might show some significant findings. For example. Horses with MRI confirmed boney changes had discomfort with hard surfaces and responded positive to hoof testers and responded well to shoeing with pads. Horses with DDFT damage did not respond to hoof testers, did not improve with therapeutic shoeing etc. This may help narrow down treatment avenues in the field for people who can't get an MRI. It is a 6 hour drive to a clinic that has one (if Auburn has one). Anyway, just a thought. If my mare has DDFT damage then I should be resting her in a stall. But the vet is sure that is not it b/c she shows boney changes on the xray... so it might be helpful to have a better elimination system, a flow chart of symptoms and responses...so to speak...:D

[deltawave]

You've already got a lot of selection bias going on there since most horses that come for an MRI already have some soundness problems that have defied routine workup.

What would be really cool is a large, robust database of MRI studies--done serially over time--on healthy, sound horses of all ages, to sort of redefine what NORMAL is in terms of MRI anatomy of this area of the leg. :yes:

[Gayla]

You've already got a lot of selection bias going on there since most horses that come for an MRI already have some soundness problems that have defied routine workup.

What would be really cool is a large, robust database of MRI studies--done serially over time--on healthy, sound horses of all ages, to sort of redefine what NORMAL is in terms of MRI anatomy of this area of the leg. :yes:
Yes. I like it! :)

[Fharoah]

If you really want an awncer on your horse you are best to get an MRI if you can afford it. If the navicular area lights up on a bone scan and is correlated by clinical findings that would seggest heal pain.

I have an assume contact unniversity professor these were some of my questions:

If bursitis in the navicular bursa shows up on an MRI but the navicular bone is relatively intact does that always imply navicular disease or could that bursitis resolve with rest and not become a future problem?

could go either way.

Have you found articulating ringbone to still be inconsequential, if so is it only a matter of time?


awncer: Have seen it go both ways.

is it possible for a horse that has no respose to hoof testers pressed hard anywhere on the foot to still have active navicular disese?

Yes

I thought those might be interesting to you.

Best wishes!

[Peggy]

Gayla - Is what you're after a flow chart sort of thing that would consider how horse presents WRT clinical symptoms and readily available diagnostic methods such as radiographs and then spit out a possible cause (or unlikely cause)? And to have the basis for the flow chart be statistical analysis of MRI's taken of a lot of horses (large sample size), both lame and sound? Sort of like, and this may not be a great analogy, those "Tree Finder" books that start by asking, say "needles or leaves" and go from there?

The data is probably out there, though without a huge sample size at this point. It's "just" a matter of getting to it and analyzing it.

For example, I recall the vet who did Star's MRI telling me (and I hope I get this stated accurately) that once you have diagnosed collateral ligament (P3/P2) damage via MRI that you can almost do a re-check based on a certain flexion test. The impression that I got was that this method wouldn't necessarily be suitable for the initial diagnosis (b/c said (+) flexion result could be due to a number of causes) but once you had isolated this as the issue you could check to see if it was there. Maybe if you had enough markers like this you could move towards a more definitive diagnosis?

I don't feel like this is making much sense--too many early AM's at the barn coupled with trying to whip my house into shape for a gathering yesterday...

[J.D.]

In reading the findings of MRIs on horses diagnosed with caudal heel pain it is clear (as most people know) that the causes of heel pain are varied and xrays are poor (to useless) tools for diagnosis. This is what I would be interested in: Once a horse has been diagnosed with MRI what clinical lameness signs did it exhibit? Then a statistical analysis might show some significant findings. For example. Horses with MRI confirmed boney changes had discomfort with hard surfaces and responded positive to hoof testers and responded well to shoeing with pads. Horses with DDFT damage did not respond to hoof testers, did not improve with therapeutic shoeing etc. This may help narrow down treatment avenues in the field for people who can't get an MRI. It is a 6 hour drive to a clinic that has one (if Auburn has one). Anyway, just a thought. If my mare has DDFT damage then I should be resting her in a stall. But the vet is sure that is not it b/c she shows boney changes on the xray... so it might be helpful to have a better elimination system, a flow chart of symptoms and responses...so to speak...:D

A little bit of real science befor' the lunitic fringe sees this thread!!!!

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1:
Fine mapping a quantitative trait locus on horse chromosome 2 associated with radiological signs of navicular disease in Hanoverian warmblood horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496769?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Lopes MS, Diesterbeck U, da Câmara Machado A, Distl O.
Anim Genet. 2009 Jun 3. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19496769 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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2:
The use of force plate measurements to titrate the dosage of a new COX-2 inhibitor in lame horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19469242?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Back W, MacAllister CG, van Heel MC, Pollmeier M, Hanson PD.
Equine Vet J. 2009 Mar;41(3):309-12.
PMID: 19469242 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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3:
Intra- and interobserver agreement in the interpretation of navicular bones on radiographs and computed tomography scans. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19418739?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Groth AM, May SA, Weaver MP, Weller R.
Equine Vet J. 2009 Feb;41(2):124-9.
PMID: 19418739 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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4:
Outcomes of podotrochlear (navicular) bursa injections for signs of foot pain in horses evaluated via magnetic resonance imaging: 23 cases (2005-2007). (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19335243?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Bell CD, Howard RD, Taylor DS, Voss ED, Werpy NM.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Apr 1;234(7):920-5.
PMID: 19335243 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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5:
[Assessment of hereditary defects and dispositions of the horse under animal welfare aspects] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19333900?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Mählmann Ch, Steiger A.
Schweiz Arch Tierheilkd. 2009 Apr;151(4):153-8. German.
PMID: 19333900 [PubMed - in process]
Related Articles (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=link&linkname=pubmed_pubmed&uid=19333900&ordinalpos=5:)

6:
Lesions of the deep digital flexor tendon in the digit: a correlative MRI and post mortem study in control and lame horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19301578?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Blunden A, Murray R, Dyson S.
Equine Vet J. 2009 Jan;41(1):25-33.
PMID: 19301578 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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7:
Effects of radial extracorporeal shock wave therapy on radiographic and scintigraphic outcomes in horses with palmar heel pain. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19290391?ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Byron C, Stewart A, Benson B, Tennent-Brown B, Foreman J.
Vet Comp Orthop Traumatol. 2009;22(2):113-8.
PMID: 19290391 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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8:
Characterization of the magic angle effect in the equine deep digital flexor tendon using a low-field magnetic resonance system. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19241751?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Spriet M, McKnight A.
Vet Radiol Ultrasound. 2009 Jan-Feb;50(1):32-6.
PMID: 19241751 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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9:
Deep erosions of the palmar aspect of the navicular bone diagnosed by standing magnetic resonance imaging. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19165939?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Sherlock C, Mair T, Blunden T.
Equine Vet J. 2008 Nov;40(7):684-92.
PMID: 19165939 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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10:
Interpreting cortical bone adaptation and load history by quantifying osteon morphotypes in circularly polarized light images. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19049911?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Skedros JG, Mendenhall SD, Kiser CJ, Winet H.
Bone. 2009 Mar;44(3):392-403. Epub 2008 Nov 12.
PMID: 19049911 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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11:
Evaluation of clinical examination for differential diagnosis of lameness by navicular apparatus or heel pain in horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18819633?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Sardari K, Kazemi H.
Pak J Biol Sci. 2008 Jul 1;11(13):1754-6.
PMID: 18819633 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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12:
High-intensity exercise induces structural, compositional and metabolic changes in cuboidal bones--findings from an equine athlete model. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619567?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Tidswell HK, Innes JF, Avery NC, Clegg PD, Barr AR, Vaughan-Thomas A, Wakley G, Tarlton JF.
Bone. 2008 Oct;43(4):724-33. Epub 2008 Jun 19.
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13:
Micro-computed tomography of early lesions of osteochondrosis in the tarsus of foals. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18579463?ordinalpos=13&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Olstad K, Cnudde V, Masschaele B, Thomassen R, Dolvik NI.
Bone. 2008 Sep;43(3):574-83. Epub 2008 May 15.
PMID: 18579463 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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14:
Evaluation of the diffusion of corticosteroids between the distal interphalangeal joint and navicular bursa in horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18447791?ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Pauwels FE, Schumacher J, Castro FA, Holder TE, Carroll RC, Sega GA, Rogers CW.
Am J Vet Res. 2008 May;69(5):611-6.
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15:
Pull-through technique for palmar digital neurectomy: forty-one horses (1998-2004). (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18199061?ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Maher O, Davis DM, Drake C, Myhre GD, Labbe KM, Han JH, Lejeune SS.
Vet Surg. 2008 Jan;37(1):87-93.
PMID: 18199061 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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16:
Epiphyseal cartilage canal blood supply to the tarsus of foals and relationship to osteochondrosis. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18083657?ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Olstad K, Ytrehus B, Ekman S, Carlson CS, Dolvik NI.
Equine Vet J. 2008 Jan;40(1):30-9.
PMID: 18083657 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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17:
Review of genetic aspects of radiological alterations in the navicular bone of the horse. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18077930?ordinalpos=17&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Diesterbeck U, Distl O.
Dtsch Tierarztl Wochenschr. 2007 Nov;114(11):404-11. Review.
PMID: 18077930 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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18:
Effects of analgesia of the digital flexor tendon sheath on pain originating in the sole, distal interphalangeal joint or navicular bursa of horses. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065312?ordinalpos=18&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Harper J, Schumacher J, Degraves F, Schramme M, Schumacher J.
Equine Vet J. 2007 Nov;39(6):535-9.
PMID: 18065312 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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19:
Evaluation of foot pain in the standing horse by magnetic resonance imaging. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056010?ordinalpos=19&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Sherlock CE, Kinns J, Mair TS.
Vet Rec. 2007 Dec 1;161(22):739-44.
PMID: 18056010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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20:
Diagnostic imaging of the equine tarsal region using radiography and ultrasonography. Part 2: bony disorders. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17937999?ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)
Vanderperren K, Raes E, Bree HV, Saunders JH.
Vet J. 2009 Feb;179(2):188-96. Epub 2007 Oct 15. Review.
PMID: 17937999 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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[deltawave]

Fharaoh, sounds like the vet's answers of "could go either way", etc. point out very nicely how LITTLE an isolated imaging study can tell us about an individual horse. :)

[Fharoah]

why individulal nerve blocks are invalueable

[Fharoah]

[But the vet is sure that is not it b/c she shows boney changes on the xray... so it might be helpful to have a better elimination system, a flow chart of symptoms and responses...so to speak...:D[/QUOTE]

remodeling on the navicular bone is a very normal finding according to my specialist/sergeon. If your horse blocks to the foot and money was not an object (just here say) you wanted the best awncer run a bone scan to see if the soft tissue or bony changes light up. Then do an MRI. That changes on films can be inconsequensal and must be correlated by clinical findings. Bony changes on navicular bone are not very diagnostic.

[LMH]

so that JD won't be disappointed at the lack of lunatic fringe....:lol:

I would be curious what the hooves look like.