Just bought a roarer...WWYD?

[FormerShowHunter]

A couple of months ago I bought myself a nice OTTB that the trainer advertised as "sound." (I still have the ad to prove it.) I of course asked why he was selling him and he told me he couldn't get him to run the way he wanted. I gave him a month off and started him slowly. When I started cantering and teaching him to go on the bit, it became obvious he was a roarer. I had a vet look at him today and got a definite diagnosis.

I am not going to be able to compete him like I planned, and his resale value in this market is practically gone. Do you think I have a legal claim against the trainer? I am sure he knew about this; it didn't just happen overnight. I would keep the horse if he doesn't want him back but I don't feel he was worth the money I paid.

[Lieslot]

How bad is the roaring? In what way has it affected him in his training so far other then being noisy? Does he show any signs of reduced stamina?

I ask, because I bought a roarer too. It was no secret in my case, it showed up in the PPE, but that did not knock off anything of his price.
Horse is totally able to perform, just a tad noisy.
As an eventer or racehorse, I think it can be problematic, other disciplines, depending on the severity of the roaring, it doesn't have to be all that much of a problem.

What are you plans for this horse, what discipline, level?

[ryansgirl]

A couple of months ago I bought myself a nice OTTB that the trainer advertised as "sound." (I still have the ad to prove it.) I of course asked why he was selling him and he told me he couldn't get him to run the way he wanted. I gave him a month off and started him slowly. When I started cantering and teaching him to go on the bit, it became obvious he was a roarer. I had a vet look at him today and got a definite diagnosis.

I am not going to be able to compete him like I planned, and his resale value in this market is practically gone. Do you think I have a legal claim against the trainer? I am sure he knew about this; it didn't just happen overnight. I would keep the horse if he doesn't want him back but I don't feel he was worth the money I paid.

Did you do a PPE before you bought him? And being a roarer doesn't necessarily make him "unsound". It's buyer beware and that's the risk you take. There are vet procedures to fix the roaring issue - a friend of mine just had it done on her OTTB and she's fine w/ it. The previous owner may not have known about it - horses change hands very fast at the track and they don't always know the issues (if any even exist) in a horse they get from another trainer, etc.

[RioTex]

It's an "unsoundness" in a hunter. Race people don't love it if it keeps the horses from getting enough air, but otherwise, lots of disciplines don't find it that big of a deal. Is he exercise intolerant? Is having it surgically corrected that big an issue for you?

[ryansgirl]

It's an "unsoundness" in a hunter. Race people don't love it if it keeps the horses from getting enough air, but otherwise, lots of disciplines don't find it that big of a deal. Is he exercise intolerant? Is having it surgically corrected that big an issue for you?

Good point about hunters - depends on the discipline. "Sound" to a trainer typically means they aren't lame but you never know what underlying condition they have that is why a PPE is always recommended. :)

[HenryisBlaisin']

Did the vet say he wouldn't be able to perform? Have you considered tieback surgery-the success rate isn't 100%, but when it is successful, your hourse should be able to perform in any discipline.

As others asked, what are your plans for the horse? is he otherwise sound and quiet-perhaps good for a lower level rider where the roaring won't affect performance?

My horse is a roarer, and the only way it affects him is that I have to be careful to keep him fit-if he isn't, it's harder on him. He's a lower level dressage horse, but was a working ranch horse previously, and those horses work long, hard hours.

[luise]

did you have him vetted? did you ask to get previous vet records from the seller? Sounds like it would have turned up on the vetting. I don't know how you could prove the seller knew anything, unless they falsified records you asked for. Most horses are sold "as is" so you may be out of luck. sorry!

[FormerShowHunter]

Unsoundness covers wind too...at least it used to. He is a grade 4, which is the worst. And I've heard this can cause future problems as well. I don't have a problem with keeping the horse, but I think the price should be reduced as he is not what was advertised. I had planned to show him as a hunter initially, but then I also had someone that wanted to purchase him as an eventer. The vet said he would not be an eventing prospect.

I did not do a PPE; anyone who buys from the backstretch knows this is not always possible. I have not worked him hard enough yet to say if he is exercise intolerant, but he seems to get a little nervous when I ask for a little vertical flexion, as I think this blocks his airway more.

I would do the surgery but the complications and long term prognosis sounds worse than just leaving him and letting him find a less strenuous job. He is a sweet horse and I really want to do right by him but I feel this trainer misrepresented him to me.

[FlashGordon]

This feels like deja vu...

I'd say without a PPE you don't have much claim. That, and the fact that you are looking to pursue this "a couple of months" after purchase!

[FormerShowHunter]

Did the vet say he wouldn't be able to perform? Have you considered tieback surgery-the success rate isn't 100%, but when it is successful, your hourse should be able to perform in any discipline.

As others asked, what are your plans for the horse? is he otherwise sound and quiet-perhaps good for a lower level rider where the roaring won't affect performance?

My horse is a roarer, and the only way it affects him is that I have to be careful to keep him fit-if he isn't, it's harder on him. He's a lower level dressage horse, but was a working ranch horse previously, and those horses work long, hard hours.


Yes, I have considered tieback surgery but this can lead to bigger problems from what I have read. I would just put him up for sale myself, but OTTBs are a dime a dozen around here and a green roarer isn't the best sale prospect.

He is only 4 and he is a grade 4 roarer...total paralysis.

[analise]

The rescue I volunteer at got a horse in who was a roarer. He had a procedure using a laser to cut out the offending aretynoid (they were just going to tie it back but apparently it was too thick). He's just fine now, except since he's missing one of his "vocal cords" he doesn't quite whinny properly and they have to be careful to watch him and make sure he doesn't aspirate his food but as far as being able to work goes, he's great, just went on two long trail rides recently over fairly uneven ground.

[FormerShowHunter]

did you have him vetted? did you ask to get previous vet records from the seller? Sounds like it would have turned up on the vetting. I don't know how you could prove the seller knew anything, unless they falsified records you asked for. Most horses are sold "as is" so you may be out of luck. sorry!

Racehorses are scoped almost periodically...I am sure vet records exist for this horse and they would show he was diagnosed before the trainer gave up on him. The trainer advertised him as "sound" and he is not; isn't that misrepresentation?

[FormerShowHunter]

This feels like deja vu...

I'd say without a PPE you don't have much claim. That, and the fact that you are looking to pursue this "a couple of months" after purchase!

Why Deja Vu? Was this previously discussed?

[MEP]

I had a roarer also. In my opinion, if you want to show amateur hunters, it might make a difference in pinning order, but at 3ft or below, most likely nobody's going to throw you out of the ring! Some of the main criteria for an AA hunter is suitability and safety (unless you're going to the AAAAAA+++ shows and depending on the judge.) A lot of the larger horses 'make some noise' - it's common in TBs and WBs. Some judges may not like it, but most won't eliminate you. I think it's similar in lower level dressage.

Did you do a pre-purchase? I tend to agree with those who say you might not have legal recourse. Have you spoken with the trainer?

Given my thoughts above, rather than try to sell him as a green roarer, you might keep him for a while, put some time in on him, and be able to sell him as a trained hunter who 'makes a little noise' as the market recovers.

Also, are you sure it's roaring? May also be 'false nostrils' where the horse flutters his/her nostrils in a rhythmic way. I had a TB who did that - it was great to help with getting a good pace. Nevermind - looks like you've had a vet exam to confirm.

[FormerShowHunter]

The rescue I volunteer at got a horse in who was a roarer. He had a procedure using a laser to cut out the offending aretynoid (they were just going to tie it back but apparently it was too thick). He's just fine now, except since he's missing one of his "vocal cords" he doesn't quite whinny properly and they have to be careful to watch him and make sure he doesn't aspirate his food but as far as being able to work goes, he's great, just went on two long trail rides recently over fairly uneven ground.

The complications are what worries me down the road...someone just told me the story of her roarer getting aretynoid chrondrosis (sp?) and I've heard stories of choking or of paralysis of the other flap. My horses eat in a field with others and they do tend to bolt their food due to competition. I'm not in a position to stall board him right now.

[FormerShowHunter]

I had a roarer also. In my opinion, if you want to show amateur hunters, it might make a difference in pinning order, but at 3ft or below, most likely nobody's going to throw you out of the ring! Some of the main criteria for an AA hunter is suitability and safety (unless you're going to the AAAAAA+++ shows and depending on the judge.) A lot of the larger horses 'make some noise' - it's common in TBs and WBs. Some judges may not like it, but most won't eliminate you. I think it's similar in lower level dressage.

Also, are you sure it's roaring? May also be 'false nostrils' where the horse flutters his/her nostrils in a rhythmic way. I had a TB who did that - it was great to help with getting a good pace.

I wish it was false nostrils..I tried telling myself that for the first few rides! I had him scoped and he has total paralysis.

[joiedevie99]

What does your contract say about soundness? Are there any reps and warranties? Is there an as is, with all faults, etc. clause? Is there a "this is the whole contract" clause?

Imho, buying race horses straight off the track with no PPE is a gamble- and they wouldn't call it that if you always win.

[FlashGordon]

The 14 page thread on Horse Care last week about the OTTB who turned out to be a cribber and also potentially lame.... same story... might be worth reading.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=208973

[cllane1]

If it's a nice horse and you think he'll be able to do what you want, why not get the surgery done? I know you've mentioned that you are fearful of complications, but I think these occur less often that you think. Our OTTB had a tie-back done at the track, is now 14, and has had no problem at all. Never choked, no noise, and no sign of any problems.

Why not just check with your vet and see what he/she recommends? For the majority of horses, the tie-back is a one-time procedure that fixes the problem. Just be thankful you don't have something that isn't fixable, like the pharyngeal peresis my 5 y.o. has. Bye bye, eventing career.

[Pat]

fast answer

Had a roarer. did the surgery. turned him into a perfectly lovely Adult Hunter/Adult jumper. COuld have done faaaaar more if I could ride better.

Also have a wall full of tricolors and Year Ends from the very competitve Fairfield/Westchester PHA in NY. Horse showed at BBBBIIIIG shows with the roar. didn't bother the judges one bit, it seems.

[luise]

Racehorses are scoped almost periodically...I am sure vet records exist for this horse and they would show he was diagnosed before the trainer gave up on him. The trainer advertised him as "sound" and he is not; isn't that misrepresentation?

sorry, but I think unless you asked for the records and the trainer didn't show them or falsified them, I don't know how you could prove it. did you ask for the vet records? One thing I've learned is to not assume anything. Just because the trainer says he is sound doesn't mean I should believe him. It is still up to me as the buyer to either do a PPE and/or look deeper into the horse's medical history, or take a risk and buy the horse based on what the trainer is telling you. Also many people call the horse "sound" meaning clean legs and not lame.

[SEPowell]

It wouldn't surprize me a bit if the trainer knew the horse is a roarer and withheld that bit of information to have a better chance of making the sale. The trainer may take him back, but he'll probably just get rid of him in a hurry, and those hurried decisions usually don't end up so well for the horse.

Who knows, if you approach the trainer positively maybe he'll give you the horse and then perhaps you could afford the tie back surgery. I'm afraid the horse has a lot to lose if you don't figure out a way to keep him and do the surgery. (Grade 4 has been described to me like trying to breathe through a straw.) There are some vets in the midatlantic region who have had tons of experience with this and can probably give you good results.

[FormerShowHunter]

SEPowell--Thank you; I think that is where I will start; call the trainer and see what he has to say. It really surprises me how many people on these forums seem to worship the TB trainers and seem to think its okay for them not to be honest when selling a horse. OTTB buyers are doing the trainers a favor; groups like CANTER are helping them just as much (or more) as they are helping the purchasers.

Why don't I just have the surgery done? To be honest, It's going to be a financial burden. I can probably scrape up enough money to have it done, but what if there are complications and he needs more surgeries? What if he starts aspirating his food afterwards? Unfortunately I can't just keep opening my wallet. I've taken in a couple of other OTTBs this year and haven't been able to sell them due to the economy. Everything I make goes to the horses, but I just don't make enough to pay for something like this. I wish I did; this is truly a nice horse and deserves a better chance.

[Laurierace]

I hope you can find a way to get him a good home. In the meantime stop getting horses off the track. You aren't doing them any favors by not being able to care for them when problems turn up. You can't depend upon being able to sell any of them so stop getting them in the first place until you are financially better able to roll with the punches.

[FormerShowHunter]

At least they are getting proper feed, dental care, and hoof care now which is more than any of them were getting on the track! I've been doing this for 20 years now and this is the first major issue I've had with a trainer. Just because I can't afford what could amount to thousands of dollars in surgical bills doesn't mean I am not doing them a favor by getting them in the first place!

[Laurierace]

You aren't doing them a favor. What if they colicked? What if they foundered? What if they got kicked and broke a leg? They would just sit in a field and die because you can't afford it?
Look I appreciate that you are disappointed. Either fix the horse or find him a home or deal with it, those are your choices. It won't be the last time something horse related didn't turn out exactly as you had planned, you need to take what comes along and deal with it.

[Meredith Clark]

I hope you can find a way to get him a good home. In the meantime stop getting horses off the track. You aren't doing them any favors by not being able to care for them when problems turn up. You can't depend upon being able to sell any of them so stop getting them in the first place until you are financially better able to roll with the punches.

:yes:

I'm going to be a little less direct than Laurierace because I don't know you and you may be very well qualified to have a horse off the track. However, it's upsetting to me that so many people are willing to take the "cheap deals" from the track, not do anything to protect themselves legally (PPE, In depth contracts, etc) and then freak out when there is a problem.

I was in a situation like you. I got a horse off the track (Bowie) and it was sold to me as having "a slight knee"- no big deal to me. A few months later this filly started weezing. It got worse to the point she sounded like an old man snoring into a microphone. I took her to 3 vets, did some treatments and then decided it was my responsibility to put her down because the vets confirmed to me she was only going to get worse and suffer.

I'm NOT saying this will happen to your horse, but she was going to be a "re-sell" project for me- it didn't work out- I have no regrets. I'm glad she got to spend her last few months rolling in my field being happy. I could have prevented this by scoping her at the track- I didn't- my fault.

I hope you can either find a good home for your horse or seek treatment to make him more comfortable. Horses are always a gamble but there's a lot we can do to improve our odds. :)

[Milocalwinnings]

Sounds to me like you get horses off the track as resale projects. If that's the case, why keep bringing them in? Didn't you state that you have 4 others that you haven't been able to sell?

Well, things don't always work out with resale projects. I had a 3.5 y/o Anglo-Hanoverian filly who was bought dirt cheap as a resale project. We had her for 4 months, and had not yet listed her as we were still working with her (and quite honestly, I was thinking of keeping her)... but she came down with Guttural Pouch Mycosis that required multiple vets to diagnose plus a trip to the equine medical center. $3000+ in vet bills later from that one incident and she didn't make it. That's the risk you take with a resale.

Also, while I'm not saying it's alright for trainers to hide things like this, the term "sound" to me means the horse has clean legs and is able to perform from that standpoint. Maybe in the racing world "sound" means something different, but IMO, the trainer didn't misrepresent the horse in terms of soundness. Other ways, maybe... if they knew about the problem.

[Fixerupper]

Unfortunately 'we' have all been there - but with no written contract..or even with a written statement declaring 'sound of wind and limb'.... you are still looking at legal bills that in the first 'fifteen minutes' will pay for the tie-back surgery (there are other surgical alternatives available...I expect the costs are probably higher)..apparently vets work cheaper than lawyers!!!.
You have, as I see it, two choices...either do the surgery and try to recoup your outlay, or ditch the horse off to a dealer and eat your losses...I know what I'd do...you have to make your own choice...

[monstrpony]

I cannot believe you've been doing this for 20 years and this is the first time you've had a problem this significant. You must lead a totally charmed life!

[aspenlucas]

I agree that without a PPE you are SOL. It's buyer beware in that market. I've "rescued" a lot of horses from brokers. You never know what you are getting and I realize that. I've gotten horses that were older then I was told, sick, a roarer, it's buyer beware.

I always chuckle. What if you had gotten a horse that was an exceptional animal. Would you come on a BB and say "do you think I owe the old owner more money?" Every one is so worried about taking "legal action". Makes me sick.

I agree get the tie back surgery if he's a nice horse. Put some time into him and determine that. If you got him off the "backside" of the track I would think he wasn't a 5K horse.

[aspenlucas]

I took her to 3 vets, did some treatments and then decided it was my responsibility to put her down because the vets confirmed to me she was only going to get worse and suffer.

Meredith I got one from a trainer once, we went through 10 months of what the vet felt was "choking". Took her to a clinic and they ended up putting her down. So full of ulcers, but the vets all thought it was choking/colic. Very sad, cost me over 2K in 2 days to figure out what was wrong with her. In the end I did what was best for the horse. I'm sure the trainer knew but I didn't do a PPE.

[TwoDreamRides]

I've been in your place. Ready for a novel?

I have purchased two horses who turned out to be roarers. In my case, they were young at the time of purchase [4 & 5 respectively] and developed into roarers [6 & 8 at time of diagnosis]. The younger of the two was a Grade 4 with full paralysis of the left flap. The older was a 2-3 with partial paralysis. The problem is common with large horses, and also common on the track. The procedure for tieback has become quite routine, especially with racetrack vets. In fact, there is even a newer, less-invasive procedure which involves laser removal of the flap. Recovery time for the more invasive procedure is approximately 6-8 weeks for the wound to heal. The laser procedure is more in the lines of 4 weeks.

Yes, there can be complications, but there are ways to minimize this. My vets recommended feeding on the ground, which is arguably healthier for the horse anyways, as they were designed as grazing animals. My boys both ate out of rubber pans as opposed to hanging feed buckets, hay is only fed on the ground [and they NEVER got hay in the trailer!], and as an extra precaution, I did my best to keep them out of extremely dusty conditions [such as schooling in a crowded, poorly ventilated indoor ring].

As for competing, roaring is really only considered an "unsoundness" in the Hunter arena. However, at a Level 4, I view this as similar to a person with asthma. Imagine having to run around -- whether you are playing [horse in the field] or working out [horse being ridden]. If at all possible, I recommend the tieback surgery purely for the improvement of the horse's quality of life, and especially when the horse is being asked to perform in the ring.

However, I also understand when money is an issue. I purchased my first [and only] OTTB to flip as college sophomore, completely funded on my own. 3 days after his arrival at the farm in GA from PA he exhibited signs of colic and was rushed to UGA for what we thought would need to be colic surgery. It turned out that he had a colitis stomach infection [but not RDC, so not recurring, just a one-time issue]. He drained my back account of $2500 within 10 days. In addition, due to the downturn economy, I sold him for only his combined purchase and vet costs. I did not make anything on him, nor did I make back additional costs, such as board, routine vet, etc.

Unfortunately, that is the crap shoot of flipping horses. On some, you may make money. On some, you may lose some. That being said, my mother and I have discussed and decided that any sales prospects will no longer make the journey to the vet school. Either they get better at home, or I sell them as soon as possible, even at a loss.

With 20 years of experience of buying and selling OTTB's, I too am surprised that you have just now run into an issue such as this and that you do not have your own "policy" in place yet. With that being said, without a PPE, I don't think there's anything you can request from the trainer. If you're unwilling to go the route of surgery [which I would say is due more to monetary constraint than potential complications], my suggestion would simply be to move this guy on as soon as possible. Perhaps his new family will be willing to go the way of surgery!

Good luck in your decision.

[Meredith Clark]

Meredith I got one from a trainer once, we went through 10 months of what the vet felt was "choking". Took her to a clinic and they ended up putting her down. So full of ulcers, but the vets all thought it was choking/colic. Very sad, cost me over 2K in 2 days to figure out what was wrong with her. In the end I did what was best for the horse. I'm sure the trainer knew but I didn't do a PPE.

Oh wow, i'm so sorry. At least i'm not the only one who made that mistake!

It makes me nervous when the OP says the horse is a "level 4" "totally paralyzed" The vets didn't use a scale for my horse but they did say she was totally paralyzed and that tie-back surgery was not an option for her. I hope this isn't the case with the OP's horse. My filly got to the point where the other horses would romp and play and she'd get winded and would be weezing so hard she'd have to stop while they all ran off into the distance. It was sad that she couldn't be a part of the herd and the vets were scared she'd suffocate herself if she over-exerted herself.

I also have a OTTB that's a head-shaker. I don't think that would have shown up on a PPE unless it had been drizzling that day. It's one of his many issues and I love him regardless!

[Fixerupper]

Actually, from what I've been told, the 'total' laryngeal paralysis has a better prognosis, post-surgical...from the tie-back operation... than the 'partial' paralysis...

As far as I know, they all remain 'noisy' breathers, but the successful ones don't have respiratory impairment...

[TwoDreamRides]

My Level 4 had no noise after surgery and his performance improved. Stocking up in his hind legs also decreased, as more oxygen allowed better circulation to the far extremities.

My Level 2 still has some noise in particularly humid or "heavy" air. His performance is now more focused, if that makes sense at all. Stocking up was never an issue.

[Meredith Clark]

Actually, from what I've been told, the 'total' laryngeal paralysis has a better prognosis, post-surgical...from the tie-back operation... than the 'partial' paralysis...

As far as I know, they all remain 'noisy' breathers, but the successful ones don't have respiratory impairment...

Well my filly had really bad inflammation that they couldn't treat or find the cause of so it was more complicated. I hope her horse has a great prognosis!

[nightsong]

In the meantime stop getting horses off the track. You aren't doing them any favors by not being able to care for them when problems turn up. You can't depend upon being able to sell any of them so stop getting them in the first place until you are financially better able to roll with the punches.
Amen to this. You shouldn't have horses if you aren't willing to pay vet bills.

[Chardavej]

You aren't doing them a favor. What if they colicked? What if they foundered? What if they got kicked and broke a leg? They would just sit in a field and die because you can't afford it?
Look I appreciate that you are disappointed. Either fix the horse or find him a home or deal with it, those are your choices. It won't be the last time something horse related didn't turn out exactly as you had planned, you need to take what comes along and deal with it.

Then, good Lord, they would put the horse down.

I HATE people who come on and say if I don't have thousands and thousands of dollars I shouldn't have a horse! My horses have regular vet care, teeth floated, roatation wormed, trimmed every 6 to 8 weeks (depeding on the season and feet growth and wear) shots, are FAT and happy. But sorry, if anything happens that will cost thousands and thousands of dollars they WILL be put down! That is NOT horrible. Oh gosh! Call the police on me! I'm not rich and have 5 fat horses!! Give me a break...

[BelladonnaLily]

I hope you can find a way to get him a good home. In the meantime stop getting horses off the track. You aren't doing them any favors by not being able to care for them when problems turn up. You can't depend upon being able to sell any of them so stop getting them in the first place until you are financially better able to roll with the punches.

That's unfair! If people with deep pockets were the only ones who purchased OTTBs, there would be a heckuva lot more going to slaughter!

Some of my horses would get involved medical treatment. Some won't. I don't promise it to any of them. I simply commit to care for them properly as long as I'm able and make a good decision for them when the time comes. I have 3 daughters to put through college and so making a tough decision about my pets comes with the package. That is the best I can do, and without people like me, the horse industry would be in a pickle and many more horses would wind up in bad places.

That said, a friend of mine did tie-back surgery a few years back and as I recall, it wasn't that expensive ($1,200 I think?) and it was successful.

[BelladonnaLily]

You aren't doing them a favor. What if they colicked? What if they foundered? What if they got kicked and broke a leg? They would just sit in a field and die because you can't afford it?
Look I appreciate that you are disappointed. Either fix the horse or find him a home or deal with it, those are your choices. It won't be the last time something horse related didn't turn out exactly as you had planned, you need to take what comes along and deal with it.

If any of mine that aren't insured (I have 3 that are, 3 that aren't) coliced, they are getting a hole dug for them. Seems harsh, but I don't believe there is anything wrong with that. I don't believe the OP said she would leave the animal in the field to suffer. The horse isn't suffering as a roarer...it just can't compete in the discipline she wants as is. Making the leap from NOT doing roarer surgery to the OP leaving the horse in the field with a broken leg untreated is a HUGE, very unfair leap. Who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

[Laurierace]

Her horses are resale projects, not pets. Can you not see the difference? If you sold cars instead and no one was buying them would you keep buying more cars?

[FormerShowHunter]

You aren't doing them a favor. What if they colicked? What if they foundered? What if they got kicked and broke a leg? They would just sit in a field and die because you can't afford it?
Look I appreciate that you are disappointed. Either fix the horse or find him a home or deal with it, those are your choices. It won't be the last time something horse related didn't turn out exactly as you had planned, you need to take what comes along and deal with it.

What if they colicked or foundered on the track? Do you think these trainers that can't even pay to get their teeth floated are going to pay for colic surgery? At least I won't be dumping this horse at a sale or selling him to another person without disclosing his health information! Everyone needs to draw the line somewhere; believe me, you wouldn't want to have paid my vet bills over the last 20 years!! This is a different situation though; if the trainer had disclosed the fact he was a roarer, I would have left with an empty trailer. And I am not an OTTB hoarder like you make it sound. I have x number of stalls and when one sells, I get another one. I don't understand the mentality here that its okay for trainers to lie or leave out information. He didn't GIVE me this horse; he represented him as a sound animal, excellent prospect for what I needed. He knew better! Why shouldn't he be responsible for his actions?

[Laurierace]

How do you know he knew? Have you asked? You have had the horse for months, why didn't you know?

[FormerShowHunter]

Amen to this. You shouldn't have horses if you aren't willing to pay vet bills.

Why are you assuming that I am not paying vet bills? Obviously you are rolling in dough and can hand over the Gold Card when anything goes wrong, but it doesn't make those of us that can't unfit owners.

[FormerShowHunter]

How do you know he knew? Have you asked? You have had the horse for months, why didn't you know?

He had the horse in race training; I had the horse in a field for two months!! Don't you think the horse breathes a little differently in the two situations? Now that I have put the horse into light work, he is gurgling and wheezing; there is not way this guy didn't know about that!

[FormerShowHunter]

I cannot believe you've been doing this for 20 years and this is the first time you've had a problem this significant. You must lead a totally charmed life!

You know its really sad that we just accept the fact that sellers lying to buyers is okay...
I HAVE been lucky though. I took in 2 sight unseen last fall from trainers who were down on their luck and the worst thing about them is they weren't quite the height that they told me! But I always check past performance and don't buy older horses or horses with a lot of starts. There are tons of young ones out there who just don't have the desire to run.

[BelladonnaLily]

Her horses are resale projects, not pets. Can you not see the difference? If you sold cars instead and no one was buying them would you keep buying more cars?

Well, in the car industry, if a dealer bought a car and found out it needed repairs that cost more than the car would probably be worth afterwards, and the repair had no guarantees and could lead to future more expensive repairs, I bet that car would be sold for parts or shipped to the junkyard. They would cut their losses and move on and no one would blink. And yes, they would buy more cars. I didn't see where the OP wasn't ever able to sell a horse? Unless I missed something, your analogy is silly. No businessman worth his salt would willingly lose money on a deal. And as rotten as you think people are that resell OTTBs, your race industry needs them.

I know a girl who does this. Occassionally, she will send a few down the road because they just will not sell and have so many problems. Usually she has fed them for a year or more. She brings trailer loads home from market, directly from the killer's hands, and salvages as many as she can. But she cannot do extensive medical care and treatment. She retrains and reconditions as many as are possible and gives them time to sell, but she has to cut her losses somewhere. Unlike some dealers, she doesn't even expect to make money...she just tries to stay alive, feed the horses and break even somewhere. She is an excellent trainer (I had her work with an OTTB that I owned, and know that these horses could not be in better, more patients hands than hers). Should she stop doing this too? Because I'm sure her horses aren't getting seen by the vet very often...if at all. But I've also seen some of her success stories that are owned and loved by wonderful owners...and that makes it worth it to her. Do you feel the same about this situation as the OPs?

I don't believe the former owner can be held responsible, because the OP didn't get a PPE, FWIW. But at least the OP cares enough to ask the question and not quietly ship the horse off to slaughter.

[luise]

Has he been the trainer all along? Maybe someone gave him the horse to sell and he didn't know the history other than what he was told? We're not trying to defend the trainer, or say it's okay if he knew and didn't tell you, but the point is that you are making yourself sound like an innocent victim here. You didn't do a PPE. We don't know if you asked him to see vet records or anything like that. Especially since you state that most race horses have been scoped, why not ask to see the records then? We don't even know what kind of detailed questions you asked him. Yeah, it sucks, but you need to take some responsibility too. If you believe everything that everyone tells you, you are quite gullible then.

[Laurierace]

Read the original post. She can't afford to fix this one because the other's didn't sell.

[FormerShowHunter]

Sounds to me like you get horses off the track as resale projects. If that's the case, why keep bringing them in? Didn't you state that you have 4 others that you haven't been able to sell?

Well, things don't always work out with resale projects. I had a 3.5 y/o Anglo-Hanoverian filly who was bought dirt cheap as a resale project. We had her for 4 months, and had not yet listed her as we were still working with her (and quite honestly, I was thinking of keeping her)... but she came down with Guttural Pouch Mycosis that required multiple vets to diagnose plus a trip to the equine medical center. $3000+ in vet bills later from that one incident and she didn't make it. That's the risk you take with a resale.

Also, while I'm not saying it's alright for trainers to hide things like this, the term "sound" to me means the horse has clean legs and is able to perform from that standpoint. Maybe in the racing world "sound" means something different, but IMO, the trainer didn't misrepresent the horse in terms of soundness. Other ways, maybe... if they knew about the problem.


I don't keep bringing them in...when I have an empty stall it is filled. I am not a hoarder! But I don't have a lot of money for extras. I don't even splurge on my own medical expenses! These animals are getting much better treatment than they had in the past. If they get sick, they will be treated or put to sleep if its bad enough. If you heard this horse breathe under light work, you would understand that this trainer DID know the problems. I asked many questions about his health and nothing was disclosed. That's a different issue than a horse getting hurt in a paddock or colicking.

[BelladonnaLily]

OK, didn't see that in the original post, but did find something on page 2. It says she has a couple that didn't sell this year. It has been a bad year for many people selling horses. Doesn't mean she has never sold one, and that she hasn't had better years. But, I don't know the whole story. Maybe she has been collecting them for years, I don't know...but from what I've seen, it often takes longer than a year to rehab and retrain an OTTB for a new discipline, so not selling this year wouldn't really make me shut down shop. But, I DO see your point...I still stand by mine that not doing tie-back surgery doesn't make the OP a bad horse owner. And it IS likely, knowing the race industry, that this horse very well could have wound up in far worse shape had the OP not bought him.

Laurierace, you are in the minority in the racing world, IMHO. From everything I've learned about you on this board, you are over the top in being responsible for your horses. I applaud you, but really, the reality is that your industry needs people that will at least take a chance on some of these horses. That is what the OP did, she took a chance. She is under no obligation to the mortgage the farm to care for this horse, IMHO.

Off to work now so I can afford to feed mine!

[FormerShowHunter]

Sorry Laurie, I didn't mean to imply in my post that I can't have the surgery done because the others aren't selling. That is not the case at all...I can do the tie back surgery and I would if I felt it was as routine and easy as people are making it sound here. I've talked to people and looked up other experiences and there are BAD complications. I could make this horse's life a lot worse by doing it. And I could financially leave myself in a bad situation. Every surgery I have ever done on a horse has had complications afterwards...and I still have to feed and treat the others that I have if that does happen. Where am I supposed to draw the line?

[FormerShowHunter]

Has he been the trainer all along? Maybe someone gave him the horse to sell and he didn't know the history other than what he was told? We're not trying to defend the trainer, or say it's okay if he knew and didn't tell you, but the point is that you are making yourself sound like an innocent victim here. You didn't do a PPE. We don't know if you asked him to see vet records or anything like that. Especially since you state that most race horses have been scoped, why not ask to see the records then? We don't even know what kind of detailed questions you asked him. Yeah, it sucks, but you need to take some responsibility too. If you believe everything that everyone tells you, you are quite gullible then.

The trainer bought this guy at a yearling auction, so yes he did have knowledge of this horse's health. Maybe I am an idiot, but I just don't expect lying to be the norm!! And no, I am not trying to come off blame free here; I am more than willing to take some of the responsibility. I'd be happy with a partial refund or some assistance for the surgery. I could easily pass this guy on to someone else with no disclosure of the facts, but I am not that type of person. It just seems like the honest people end up losing in the end.

[Laurierace]

You are the one who has to make the decision as to how far you are willing to go financially. We all have to do that from time to time and it sucks. But hard decisions are part of life when you have horses. You'll get it figured out.

[caffeinated]

He didn't GIVE me this horse; he represented him as a sound animal, excellent prospect for what I needed. He knew better! Why shouldn't he be responsible for his actions?

One thing I'm learning is that different people have different definitions of "sound" and that racetrack sound might be very different from show hunter sound, which is why I tell people to always get a PPE (and if it's not "possible" to walk away unless they're willing to take care of things like this).

Sure, the guy may have known the horse was a roarer. But when he said sound he just may have been thinking of legs/lameness.

Unless you got something in writing that also references wind/breathing issues, I don't think you have a legal claim.

As to whether the guy was dishonest- can't say without knowing the details and both sides of the story. With any situation, especially involving horse sales, one person's perception of what happened may not be the others, and neither might be the 'truth'

[FormerShowHunter]

OK, didn't see that in the original post, but did find something on page 2. It says she has a couple that didn't sell this year. It has been a bad year for many people selling horses. Doesn't mean she has never sold one, and that she hasn't had better years. But, I don't know the whole story. Maybe she has been collecting them for years, I don't know...but from what I've seen, it often takes longer than a year to rehab and retrain an OTTB for a new discipline, so not selling this year wouldn't really make me shut down shop. But, I DO see your point...I still stand by mine that not doing tie-back surgery doesn't make the OP a bad horse owner. And it IS likely, knowing the race industry, that this horse very well could have wound up in far worse shape had the OP not bought him.

Laurierace, you are in the minority in the racing world, IMHO. From everything I've learned about you on this board, you are over the top in being responsible for your horses. I applaud you, but really, the reality is that your industry needs people that will at least take a chance on some of these horses. That is what the OP did, she took a chance. She is under no obligation to the mortgage the farm to care for this horse, IMHO.

Off to work now so I can afford to feed mine!

Thank you belladonna for sticking up for me! :) I don't know why everyone has taken a hostile attitude towards me; I never said I was a hoarder or I couldn't afford to pay my vet bills because my horses weren't selling. I just can't spend all my money on one horse; what if one of the other ones colic or break a leg? I just feel that the trainer who owned this horse for 4 years should have some responsibility in all this too. And I am a little frustrated right now because I see so many horses that need to come off the track, but there is nothing I can do until someone buys one of the other ones...

[jeta]

In response to your OP I would have to say that while it is unfortunate that this trainer didn't disclose the roaring to you, you made the choice to buy him without a PPE and relying on the your own instincts and the trainer's word.....

I think part of the problem here is that we don't know what kind of money you paid for this horse....Would he have been considered a bargain had he not been a roarer?... I suspect so if your intention is the resell......Perhaps the trainer thought he was doing right by the horse or perhaps he is an unsavory character that after this episode you would not deal with again....I suspect the latter and in that case lesson learned on your part. I suppose you could approach him and ask for whatever you think is fair, but honestly I don't think he will be whipping out his checkbook to fix this.....

I bought a horse from the track for a rock bottom price...I hemmed and hawed about doing a PPE and decided against it and figured I would just deal with whatever issues he might have IF he had any ( he didn't ).....I listened to the trainers/owners and took in every thing they had to say about the horse, but also realized they want the horse gone for a reason.....Some trainers really do care about their horses and the ones I bought from cared enough to disclose to me before I even asked why he was ready to move on from the track....

I feel for you in that you feel you were sold a questionable bill of goods that the trainer knowingly pawned off on you.....But I really think you are stuck with this one and will have to do the best you can to do right for yourself and the horse..

Good luck to you...

[caffeinated]

I guess my question to the OP would be: did you ask specifically about breathing issues when you were asking about the horse's soundness?

Because again, if all you asked was "is the horse sound?" that means different things to different people.

[AmandaandTuff]

Sorry to hear of the situation :(

I'm also one of the people that couldn't afford a surgery if it was needed. My horses routinely get their worming, feed, and regular vet care. Just recently I had to get some corrective trimming and shoeing done, there goes repairs on my car. A horse got into a nasty fight with one of the other horses, they've all been in the same pasture for 8 years. There goes my new saddle that would have fit my horse much better.

I had two horses colic within a month of each other, the first was twisted and I couldn't afford the $5,000 fee to walk in the doors at MSU, much less cost of surgery. The second horse was lucky, he cost me $3,000 in 3 days of intensive care. If it would have come to surgery, he was going to get put down.

I have an 18 year old gelding with heaves, he gets his meds everyday. I have a 25 year old mare that gets corrective trimming, joint supplements, powder enzyme, and special dental care due to her injuries when I bought her. They're all fat and happy, and I have a very small amount of money in my bank account, especially considering I just bought $3500 worth of hay.

Don't say those who can't dive for surgery shouldn't take horses to rescue. I always have 5 horses, one sells, I go pick one up at the auction. None have sold because none are ready considering the market. An unbroke 2 year old won't get far in this market, neither would a 7 year old who only does walk/trot.

Its a gamble to buy and resell.

[starboard]

Sigh.

Generation Whiner at it's finest again.

GET A PPE!!! How many stories do we need to read before people get it through their skulls? "Sound" is subjective.
Did you ask "can it breathe?"
As someone doing this for 20 years, you'd think you'd know the ropes by now.
First you said you don't want to do the surgery because it's unsafe, now you say you wont do it because it's too expensive.
Tieback and lasering run about 1200$, it's not a fortune. I've run into very few complications with wind surgery.
As someone else mentioned, roaring can start up suddenly, especially on long-necked horses around 5-8 years of age.

[trubandloki]

I can not help you with advice on the trainer giving you a refund or not. I just wanted to say that I understand what you are saying about the surgery and horses and such. I am not sure why people are making it into a 'you should not have horses' thing.

I do agree that you should have had a PPE.

I wish you luck resolving this situation.

[SEPowell]

FormerShowHunter, It's been hard to read all the naysaying in this thread because I think you're sincere in presenting a problem that you need to think through via discussion in order to solve it. Maybe all the negative comments have helped you reach a decision; on the other hand you have responded very quickly to those who have approached you in a more positive manner and so I don't really believe you're the kind of person who needs a nasty kick to get you going.

So approach this with a couple of simple plans, One could be to talk with the trainer about a refund that will cover the surgery. The horse needs it with a level 4. Another could be to sell the horse with full disclosure, and yet another could be to find a vet who is willing to work out payments for the procedure, and so on.

As you already know, you really don't need to be a trust funder to buy ottbs and maintain them in good health. And if your horse breaks a leg in the field it's about $250 for an emergency vet call and euthanasia. So don't let the naysayers and what ifs hold you back.

[Chardavej]

I really think it's a shame that the trainer didn't disclose his roaring. Very sneaky and unfair to the horse. With that said I would approach him (in a non-confrontational way) and explain about the horse and that you would possibly like to have the surgery, but had you known of the issue you would not have bought the horse. Explain you feel you paid to much for him and if he would refund all or some of your money so he can get the surgery that he needs.

Then do the surgery if he refunds you your money, if it's enough. If there are complications then put him down. He had a good life in the time he was with you and then you would be giving him a chance.

Here's hoping you'll get a refund (but I doubt it, he knows with all the safe and sound OTTB's he should have given this one away, he wanted some $$ and kept facts hidden.)

And I also don't think that because it wasn't asked specifically if there were any other know issues such as breathing that it wasn't disclosed the trainer is fine as he "didn't lie." Withholding known facts is also a type of lying in my opinion.

.

[caffeinated]

I don't think that the trainer is "fine" by not disclosing. But if you don't ask the specific question, then there's no real legal recourse, I don't think.

Especially since "sound" to some people only means legs and feet.

In any case, I think if you can find a way to get some money back that would be fantastic, but wouldn't count on it happening. If I were you, when some cash got freed up I would try to do the surgery. Even if it doesn't make a 100% improvement, it might mitigate the problem enough that the horse is saleable (at least into a discipline where it's not really a huge problem)

[loshad]

In horse sales, as in most things in life, it is up to us to protect ourselves. That is why we have PPEs. If a seller will not allow a PPE or one cannot be arranged, I would walk away. If I chose not to vet a horse and bought it anyway, then that would be me accepting responsibility for any issues the horse had. While I would love for sellers to be 100% honest about the horses they sell, I am not so naive as to think that they will be. Trust but verify is a good motto for the horse-buying crowd.

ETA: This would be my policy for buying ANY horse whether off the track or one that I have seen in my trainer's barn for a few months. Even though my trainer would have an interest in selling me a sound horse and I have no reason to doubt his honesty, you bet your butt I'd still vet.

[Trixie]

ETA: This would be my policy for buying ANY horse whether off the track or one that I have seen in my trainer's barn for a few months. Even though my trainer would have an interest in selling me a sound horse and I have no reason to doubt his honesty, you bet your butt I'd still vet.

Agree.

"Sound" is subjective.

I don't think anyone thinks that it's "okay" for the trainer to "lie." But we also don't think it's okay for you not to do any due-diligence.

[mvp]

So, 4 pages in;

Roaring counts as "unsoundness" to me... or to the PPE vet whose first question will be, "What is the horse's intended purpose?"

If the OP didn't do a PPE, didn't ask the trainer about the horse's wind, and thought that no horse trader every could or would lie to get an animal off his payroll, then I think this can be chalked up to an expensive lesson. But really, it's a basic one, right? Why the surprise/anger about an unethical horse trader? And "buyer beware" is so old that we say it in Latin.

[Seven-up]

Sorry, I think to say that 'soundness means different things to different people' is crap. A breathing issue is a damn important thing to a race trainer.

If the horse can't breathe, he can't run, and I'd bet my left arm that the trainer knew exactly why he "wasn't getting a run out of him."

Do I think that if the OP asks the trainer why he didn't mention the wind issue, he'll say, "well, I thought you meant soundness in his legs"? Yup. But the only way the trainer didn't know about this is if he bought the horse the day before he sold him to the OP, or if he never took the horse out of his stall. Neither of those two reasons are possible, according to the OP's story.


All of that said, I think you're SOL and just need to move forward at this point. It wouldn't hurt to ask the trainer if he wants to refund some or all of the money, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If the trainer is going to omit the bit about the roaring, I don't see why he'd decide to man up now, for the exact reasons above. It's not likely he's going to say, "Ok, you caught me. Here's your money back. Have a nice day." You didn't ask specifically, didn't do a PPE. Done and done.

I don't know any of the players here, and I think that the trainer probably left things out. Yes, I think it's wrong. However, you didn't do your homework, and I don't think there's a whole lot you can do about it. That sucks, but that's life.

I think you ought to talk to a few vets on what this horse's prognosis would be if you did the surgery, and decide from there. Best case scenario, the surgery fixes him, you can get him trained and sold as a low level performance horse. Or, surgery doesn't work out well and you train him and sell him as a trail horse. Worst case scenario, you have to put the horse down.

Live and learn. Ask specific questions, do a PPE, and if you don't, realize that things like this are going to happen.

[caffeinated]

Oh I'm sure the trainer knew about it.

But if you don't ask, and don't get specific, and don't get a ppe, you're left with nothing to cover your ass with, basically.

And yes, I still think soundness is subjective- there's lots of horses out there "sound" for racing but not for jumping 3'6" I'm riding horses sound for what I want to do but who might "fail" flexions or have some funky x-rays. This is sort of a whole other conversation I think, but I have this frustration all the time when people ask me about horses who will "vet sound"- my answer is always "vet sound for what? define sound" Because horses who will hold up and be great for what they want may not vet 100% 'clean'

Not that it's totally related to this situation, and might be getting ot a little bit, but I do think it can be very subjective.

[Seven-up]

I agree with you that there are different levels of soundness that are acceptable for different disciplines. A trail horse can function just fine with issues that wouldn't last a day as a high level eventer.

However, the fact that this horse can't breathe would have been very important to this race trainer. I'd bet that's why he sold the horse. Luckily for him, the OP didn't ask about it, and now she's stuck with the horse as he is.

Trainer probably lied. Too bad. Unless you have something in writing, you're SOL. If a person expects everyone to be honest, they ought to get out of the horse business.:winkgrin:


EDIT: So basically, caf, we're in complete agreement.

[RockinHorse]

I agree the trainer probably knew the horse had a wind problem that was an issue for racing. What I don't know is, when the trainer described the horse as sound, did this trainer know enough about the OP's intended discipline to realize it could be a problem for that as well?

[cloudyandcallie]

Has he been the trainer all along? Maybe someone gave him the horse to sell and he didn't know the history other than what he was told? We're not trying to defend the trainer, or say it's okay if he knew and didn't tell you, but the point is that you are making yourself sound like an innocent victim here. You didn't do a PPE. We don't know if you asked him to see vet records or anything like that. Especially since you state that most race horses have been scoped, why not ask to see the records then? We don't even know what kind of detailed questions you asked him. Yeah, it sucks, but you need to take some responsibility too. If you believe everything that everyone tells you, you are quite gullible then.

Some people say they are experts in horses but aren't really. So when they get a horse with issues, they then say they were swindled. Since the horse has issues and she doesn't want to pay for the operation, she should give him away. It's a business expense since she is in the business of buying and reselling ottbs, so she can deduct it as such. And go get another ottb. I cannot believe people don't observe the horses working at the track, check the vet records as you said, and talk to the grooms and exercise riders. Go hang out while the horse is in his stall and see if he has any problems like cribbing. I've learned more about horses from talking to the people who handle them daily than from reading ads. I cannot believe the naivety of some of the expert horse buyers who has posted on bb, that they have been buying off the track for years, but just this time they got a bad deal. Go thru canter, go thru rescue organizations if you don't want to spend the time to check around the barns for info on a horse.
I always feel sorry for the horse who is supposedly to be perfect, but is rejected because he has flaws.

[equinelaw]

Many years ago I bought a horse from a dealer who bought the horse from a dealer. The horse was a roarer. He only did it in certain circumstances like when he was upset or asked to flex at the poll. Dealer 1 found this out within a few days.

Dealer 1 stopped payment on the check, but dealer 2 refused to take horse back and sued for payment. Dealer 2 lost since roaring is something that courts consider an "unsoundness" and the horse was not fit for the intended use. Dealer 2 had to take horse back and give dealer 1 another horse of her choice. Dealer 1 then offered me new horse.

This process took about 2 years. It was not a very expensive horse--maybe $900 in 1983? I think the lawyers got paid much more then that.


So while its is socially unacceptable to use your legal rights and frowned upon and makes you the "bad guy", as a matter of law, its not OK for dealers to lie or hide stuff unless they had the proper waivers of in the contract. The law is sometimes very clear. It depends on your state. The price you pay to use those rights is sometimes not worth it.

So yes, you may very well likely have a legal claim of merit, but no, you probably wont use that right since you will be seen as worse then the dealer who sold you the horse.

[FormerShowHunter]

Some people say they are experts in horses but aren't really. So when they get a horse with issues, they then say they were swindled. Since the horse has issues and she doesn't want to pay for the operation, she should give him away. It's a business expense since she is in the business of buying and reselling ottbs, so she can deduct it as such.

I never said I was doing this as a business! I am in no way making money doing this; I do it because I enjoy it.

And go get another ottb. I cannot believe people don't observe the horses working at the track, check the vet records as you said, and talk to the grooms and exercise riders. Go hang out while the horse is in his stall and see if he has any problems like cribbing.

He was not working; the trainer pulled his shoes and was waiting to get rid of him. I did what I could which was watch him jog in hand. It was not strenuous enough work to aggrevate this condition.

I've learned more about horses from talking to the people who handle them daily than from reading ads.

Yes, I talked to the people who handled this horse; namely the trainer and his assistant. It was not a large operation.
I cannot believe the naivety of some of the expert horse buyers who has posted on bb, that they have been buying off the track for years, but just this time they got a bad deal.
I don't understand this hostility you have towards me. I did not come on here bashing the trainer; I simply wanted some opinions.
Go thru canter, go thru rescue organizations if you don't want to spend the time to check around the barns for info on a horse.
This purchase was through a rescue organization; most of the volunteers know less about these horses than I do.
I always feel sorry for the horse who is supposedly to be perfect, but is rejected because he has flaws.
Oh, give me a break!! The horse is not at home crying, he's not going to need years of therapy, HE'S A FRIGGING HORSE AND HAS NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON!! I love these animals to death, but thinking of them anthropomorphically does no one any good! No one is sending him down the line because he is a roarer; I am just trying to figure out my options here!

[FormerShowHunter]

Many years ago I bought a horse from a dealer who bought the horse from a dealer. The horse was a roarer. He only did it in certain circumstances like when he was upset or asked to flex at the poll. Dealer 1 found this out within a few days.

Dealer 1 stopped payment on the check, but dealer 2 refused to take horse back and sued for payment. Dealer 2 lost since roaring is something that courts consider an "unsoundness" and the horse was not fit for the intended use. Dealer 2 had to take horse back and give dealer 1 another horse of her choice. Dealer 1 then offered me new horse.

This process took about 2 years. It was not a very expensive horse--maybe $900 in 1983? I think the lawyers got paid much more then that.


So while its is socially unacceptable to use your legal rights and frowned upon and makes you the "bad guy", as a matter of law, its not OK for dealers to lie or hide stuff unless they had the proper waivers of in the contract. The law is sometimes very clear. It depends on your state. The price you pay to use those rights is sometimes not worth it.

So yes, you may very well likely have a legal claim of merit, but no, you probably wont use that right since you will be seen as worse then the dealer who sold you the horse.

Thank you equinelaw; this was really the information I wanted 4 pages ago. :) I knew I had read at one time that roaring was legally considered an unsoundness. I was never planning to truck this horse back out to the track or off to a dealer; I have bought my former horses back so I could give them to someone and they wouldn't end up in those places. I care about this guy; he is an awesome horse otherwise and he isn't going to end up in a bad situation.

[BeverlyAStrauss]

FormerShowHunter, I understand where you are coming from. We have three horses right now that have wind issues. Two roar (one is a grade 3, one a grade 4)- and one has a defective flap which causes him to aspirate. Of course we won't call anyone on it, but I agree with SEPowell, you can at least call the trainer and have a civil conversation- who knows where it may lead? Maybe nowhere- bc he probably knew- but you can at least talk. I am a big believer in communication- honest and open, and not confrontational.

In our cases, the one that aspirates must have a tie forward to allow him to hopefully live a comfortable and useful life, but there is a chance it will not be successful- but we will spend the $2K to hopefully give him that life. He is scheduled for surgery next Weds AM at a well known clinic in NJ. As far as the horses that roar go, they are nice big quiet sound geldings. We will adopt them out inexpensively for trails or low level stuff, and stand behind them. Maybe whoever adopts them will even decide to do the surgery! The vets gave them the OK, even for eventing to maybe Novice- but we will see. (I feel heartened by all of the people who have successfully ridden and shown horses that roar on this thread.) We did have a tieback done a few years ago by a vet that perhaps was not experienced enough with the procedure and we lost the horse in the end, so I understand your hesitation.

Perhaps the solution, after you speak to the trainer, is to offer the horse for sale at a fair price with full disclosure, take your losses, and move on. Kudos to you for taking so many OTTBs and restarting them-these horses need as many people as possible to showcase their talents. I am sorry that this happened but as you know, the more horses you handle, the more stuff like this you will probably run into. We see stuff we have never seen in all of our 40+ years of working with horses, and 20+ years on the track. Sorry that some posters were on the attack- but that seems to be the way of the internet. Just keep your head up and stand on your principles. No need to respond to the sniping......

Let us know what you decide to do!

Bev Strauss
MidAtlantic Horse Rescue

[atr]

Isn't there a legal definition of "sound" in this country?

However, I can tell you that I have a roarer who had a tie back several years ago (8, I think,) and he hasn't had any complications. He was a basket case before the surgery.

I used a very experienced surgeon. It wasn't terribly expensive or complicated and I did all the nursing care and rehab myself while working full time

Having said that, he's very happy to doodle along in a classic hunter frame, but if you try to crank on him to force him into a "dressage frame" by shutting down his throat latch, rather than make it happen the right way by working through from behind, he gets panicky.

Big tattle tale, he is, and very good for my riding :)

[equinelaw]

Isn't there a legal definition of "sound" in this country?

However, I can tell you that I have a roarer who had a tie back several years ago (8, I think,) and he hasn't had any complications. He was a basket case before the surgery.

I used a very experienced surgeon. It wasn't terribly expensive or complicated and I did all the nursing care and rehab myself while working full time

Having said that, he's very happy to doodle along in a classic hunter frame, but if you try to crank on him to force him into a "dressage frame" by shutting down his throat latch, rather than make it happen the right way by working through from behind, he gets panicky.

Big tattle tale, he is, and very good for my riding :)

My roarer was completely nuts. He was in training with the then Olympic gold medal winning show jumper. He was described as "the hottest horse on earth". Now I wonder if his inability to properly breath caused his attitude problems? He was much easier to deal with on a long low frame. He was not really a PITA unless you were riding him:)

A good place to get a "list" of what is traditionally considered unsound is in the fine print of an auction terms of sale. Hasn't changed much in a few hundred years.

[Daatje]

I did not do a PPE; anyone who buys from the backstretch knows this is not always possible. .....but I feel this trainer misrepresented him to me.

I'm sorry you're in a pickle with this horse, but by reading your post and the replies and responses.....seems that you made a gamble and took a risk. Bummer that it did not work out in your favor.

I would NEVER trust a word from a trainer selling a horse on the backside. Some are honest, lots are not. I'd never take a horse home from the track without a PPE. If one wasn't feasible....horse would stay right where he/she is.

Sounds like you've been lucky so far, but you're luck ran out on this poor guy. I'm sure you'll sort things out. Good luck!

[Lucassb]

Sorry Laurie, I didn't mean to imply in my post that I can't have the surgery done because the others aren't selling. That is not the case at all...I can do the tie back surgery and I would if I felt it was as routine and easy as people are making it sound here. I've talked to people and looked up other experiences and there are BAD complications. I could make this horse's life a lot worse by doing it. And I could financially leave myself in a bad situation. Every surgery I have ever done on a horse has had complications afterwards...and I still have to feed and treat the others that I have if that does happen. Where am I supposed to draw the line?

There are NO surgeries (or significant non surgical treatments) for which you cannot find a host of horror stories on the internet and elsewhere. However, the incidence of complications for most common procedures is quite low - which is why they are common procedures. Surgeons (human or equine) won't persist in performing surgeries that routinely end in bad outcomes. It's bad medicine and it's bad business.

I would recommend reaching out to a good vet school program and asking for statistics on this particular procedure, which is quite common and generally considered a very routine procedure with a low (but not non-existent) complication rate. In all likelihood you would be doing this horse quite a big favor to have the procedure done and give him a great shot at a good competitive career, particularly if he is a nice prospect in all other respects.

If you are having 100% complication rates on routine surgical procedures, frankly I'd probably be looking for a new surgical practice and/or examining the circumstances surrounding the post op care the horses received. Maybe you've just had really bad luck, but I've been around the field for a looooooong time and have never even heard of anyone having a rate that high, and frankly that includes practices that do a lot of cutting edge and higher risk/experimental surgeries.

As to your original post, there is no single definition of "soundness." What is acceptable in one discipline can mean something totally different in another. Racing folks mostly consider an animal sound if they aren't lame. There are horses that are perfectly sound if they are lightly trail ridden a few times a week, but would not hold up to jumping a course of moderate size fences at the same frequency. That horse is "sound" ... but not "sound for jumping."

You are rolling the dice anytime you buy something without a PPE. Not the trainer's fault.

[Meredith Clark]

Go thru canter, go thru rescue organizations if you don't want to spend the time to check around the barns for info on a horse.
.

I have to disagree with this statement. The previous horse I spoke of -with such horrible breathing problems I had to put her down- was from a MD rescue. My other horse (who I still have) was from CANTER had is a cribber (I knew this and didn't/don't care) is a pretty bad head-shaker (this was not disclosed to me) and has kissing spines. We don't know if the kissing spines were from racing or after... but I wasn't going to spend $1000 for a bonescan at the time.

My current horse (besides the headshaker) got a nosebleed 2 months ago. I FREAKED! :eek: He was given to me for free and I knew of some previous soundness issues but I was horribly afraid he had breathing problems. It turned out to be an allergy attack and he's been fine ever since but I was prepared to either treat it or put him down if he couldn't be helped or my checkbook couldn't handle the amount of help he needed.

Because of my most recent horse (the one with the nosebleed) I understand what the OP is going through. When my trainer called me (he was 2 hrs away still, I had just moved and hadn't taken him with me yet) I broke out into a cold sweat and got SO frustrated.

This was a free horse! A simple free horse I could play with since my last horse died and my other horse is NOT rideable. I don't want to deal with more health problems

I gave myself that 2 min. pity party and then got over myself! I'm sure if I had posted my feelings at the time on COTH I would have gotten the same, if not worse responses as the OP.

[FairWeather]

err, Meredith, you bought a horse straight from the track, yes? I think thats different than going thru CANTER or other groups and purchasing horses they own.
I know that we pretty much guarantee our horses, but we also insist on PPE's because we don't xray.

At the very least, people should be lookign at racing records. I'd be curious to see the PP's of the OP's horse--if the roaring were a problem on the track, you'd see a miserable race record with comments scattered throughout like "stopped" and "pulled up". That would mean, to me at least, that the horse had a breathing issue.

People keep popping up and asking if, in a nutshell, they can sue a race trainer. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I'm shocked that someone who purports to have such experience has only had a bad experience once but isnt PPE'ing. My advice? spend the 1K and fix him, then see what you have.
We own (CANTER MA) dozens of horses who have tied back or had lazer surgery--no issues whatsoever.
We have two more having surgery this summer as well, and we'll have lovely horses at the other side of it.

[analise]

I imagine a lot of the "complications" with roarers is the aftercare for the surgery. For the horse I talked about earlier in the thread, he had to have his holes (he had two, one for where the actual surgery happened and one for the breathing tube) cleaned out several times a day until they closed up. I did it once for them and it was pretty disgusting, but it had to be done. He also had to have stuff stuck up his nose with a tube and I guess the liquid flushed things out. Don't do proper aftercare, infection is likely and so on.

EDIT: He was also bedded in straw instead of shavings for quite a while to keep the dust down which was a hassle since he was the only horse getting straw.

But it was worth it to see him finally cantering around without having breathing issues, that's for sure. :)

[Seven-up]

I think if you go thru CANTER, you might come in contact with some of the more reputable trainers, but it's still up to the buyer to be responsible and vet the horse. If I bought a horse from the CANTER trainer listings and chose not to do a PPE, I certainly wouldn't expect to run back to CANTER and say, "You sold me a bunk horse!" when the thing broke. It's up to the buyer to examine the horse to make sure it will hold up for the intended use. It's not the seller's responsibility. It's ethical for them to disclose things, but it's not a requirement. Ethics are a whole 'nother ballgame.;)

[BeverlyAStrauss]

Fairweather, who did your surgeries?
Thanks!

Bev

[cloudyandcallie]

I'm thinking that before buying any horse any where, that a person should have a checklist of injuries and diseases and all, and have the seller check them off of the list, and have the seller sign the list. Even if the seller won't sign the list, you would have it as evidence if you found a significant old injury but some things can and do develop after a horse leaves the seller.
And that everyone should ask to speak to the horse's vet and farrier, I always ask that.
If you get a horse home and keep it for a few months before finding a "problem" then you cannot prove that the horse had the problem at the time of sale, unless it's an old injury that can be documented by xrays or a vet. What is "sound" for walking and trotting around a ring is not "sound" for eventing.
I also think that the Canter folks will tell you whatever they have heard is wrong with the horse, they are there to make sure that buyers get horses they want, and that horses get homes and jobs, not just to "move the horses."
I would understand this if a person who had never owned a horse went to the track and got "taken" but people who routinely buy off the track should know the perils of relying on their own knowledge and judgment.

[FairWeather]

Bev, we have them done at Charles Town or with Doc Benner. They do dozens and dozens a week I'm guessing--cannot be beat for experience!

[MintHillFarm]

Yes, roaring is an unsoundness and as far as I know always has been considered so. What good is it if he can canter but not breathe? If you had done a PPE, would you have had him scoped? If I had been in your situation, I am sure I wouldn't have.

My OTTB ended up making a noise some years after I got him.
To make a long story short, we ended up at Cornell for a full diagnosis. It was decided that he had the beginnings of COPD in additon to a soft palate issue. The surgeon there decided the best thing was to do a vocalcordectomy, which removes one of the cords, rather than a tieback. The latter operation with a horse that has COPD is not recommended.

The surgery gives him 30% more air and he does not make a noise anymore. Cost was $1200.00 with 5days of stay at Cornell. His insurance covered most of it so it was well worth it! A bargain even if I had to pay out of pocket! I would do any of thoses surgeries again on another if I had to.

My advice is, if you feel the horse has the talent to do the job you want him for, and you can put the money together, have the surgery done. Go to a vet school for the operation. Good care at a very fair price. The after care for my horse's surgery was minimal as it was laser. For the tie-back it is a bit more. If you can, see if your horse can stay a couple of extra days. Worth the money! Tell the school the story and that you want to help the horse. You never know, they may cut you a deal.

Let us know what you do. I understand your frustration but it is likely fixable.

[lily04]

It is possible that horse could have developed this condition while turned out. I have a 6 yr. old race horse that did not make a sound when he was turned out Oct. 1 last fall. Feb 1 this year he was put back into training and made an awful noise.I have galloped him for the past 3 yrs. or have been on the rail when he gallops so I knew the noise was new. Scoped him Feb. 7 and he was completly paralized. He had been scoped last year and everything was normal. He was not just kicked out in a field for the winter, out during the day in at night and treated like the champ that he is. I asked the vet what could have caused this and she said it could have a number of things. Anyway we had surgery in Feb and were able to resume traing after 30 days and all is good.

[MintHillFarm]

A couple of months ago I bought myself a nice OTTB that the trainer advertised as "sound." (I still have the ad to prove it.) I of course asked why he was selling him and he told me he couldn't get him to run the way he wanted. I gave him a month off and started him slowly. When I started cantering and teaching him to go on the bit, it became obvious he was a roarer. I had a vet look at him today and got a definite diagnosis.

I am not going to be able to compete him like I planned, and his resale value in this market is practically gone. Do you think I have a legal claim against the trainer? I am sure he knew about this; it didn't just happen overnight. I would keep the horse if he doesn't want him back but I don't feel he was worth the money I paid.

How about if you don't ask him to go on the bit and let him stretch instead?
I know with my horse it makes a differnce and really makes sense as you are closing off his air somewhat...

[FindersKeepers]

My mare (TB, off the track) is also a roarer. She was a rescue when I brought her home. My sole goal was to put some weight on her.

I ended up showing her in the Junior Hunters. we did well. Did we miss a few ribbons because she was a little noisy? Yes, probably. We received plenty tricolors though. We weren't in the aa's, but we made our way around the a's and b's close to home.

Also, the noise, and her ability to breathe, improved as she got in good weight and health. The first time I got on her, she was so deconditioned, and breathing so loud, she actually laid down. within 3 months of consistent, low intensity work, she was much quieter, and had no trouble breathing. She wasn't totally paralyzed, but she wasn't a mild case either.

I didn't do the tie back surgery only because she is a grey and has multiple melanomas in her mouth, and around her throat. The vets felt that was a complication not worth bringing on ourselves, as they were in the way of any approach they could take to get to the flap.

[blaster]

People keep popping up and asking if, in a nutshell, they can sue a race trainer. What ever happened to personal responsibility?

..dozens of horses who have tied back or had lazer surgery--no issues whatsoever.


Ditto. Since this wasn't the obvious answer, it surely is worth re-printing!

[Bogie]

Amen. If you choose to buy a horse without a PPE, you have accepted a certain amount of risk. I have had many racehorse trainers tell me the horse would be sound for other disciplines. They may believe that to be true.

My vet explained it to me this way: if you go to the track you must ask specific questions to the trainer: does the horse crib, does the horse have a breathing problem, is the horse on medication, etc. You can not go with generalities.

Yes it should have been disclosed. However, after two months do you have any chance that the trainer will refund your money? Probably not. That money probably went toward rent the next day and he/she might not even have a stall for the horse.

I had a friend who bought a roarer and the surgery fixed it marvelously.

I hope you find a good solution for your problem and that the horse finds a good home. At Grade 4 he needs the surgery for almost any job.

I recently wrote an article with a vet on what a layperson should look for when they go to the track to look at horses. I wrote it for CANTER New England and I'll check to find out when they are going to publish it on their site. It's got good practical information that would help any horse buyer. The vet who did the interview is a well regarded lameness vet in New England.
In horse sales, as in most things in life, it is up to us to protect ourselves. That is why we have PPEs. If a seller will not allow a PPE or one cannot be arranged, I would walk away. If I chose not to vet a horse and bought it anyway, then that would be me accepting responsibility for any issues the horse had. While I would love for sellers to be 100% honest about the horses they sell, I am not so naive as to think that they will be. Trust but verify is a good motto for the horse-buying crowd.

ETA: This would be my policy for buying ANY horse whether off the track or one that I have seen in my trainer's barn for a few months. Even though my trainer would have an interest in selling me a sound horse and I have no reason to doubt his honesty, you bet your butt I'd still vet.

[FormerShowHunter]

It is possible that horse could have developed this condition while turned out. I have a 6 yr. old race horse that did not make a sound when he was turned out Oct. 1 last fall. Feb 1 this year he was put back into training and made an awful noise.I have galloped him for the past 3 yrs. or have been on the rail when he gallops so I knew the noise was new. Scoped him Feb. 7 and he was completly paralized. He had been scoped last year and everything was normal. He was not just kicked out in a field for the winter, out during the day in at night and treated like the champ that he is. I asked the vet what could have caused this and she said it could have a number of things. Anyway we had surgery in Feb and were able to resume traing after 30 days and all is good.

Wow...I had no idea they could just develop this so quickly. Did your vet give you any indication of what might have caused it? Like a kick or something? I've read that the nerve can be damaged with an improper injection, but can the symptoms just appear out of the blue one day? I just assumed from what I read that they came on more slowly. Thanks!

[FormerShowHunter]

FormerShowHunter, I understand where you are coming from. We have three horses right now that have wind issues. Two roar (one is a grade 3, one a grade 4)- and one has a defective flap which causes him to aspirate. Of course we won't call anyone on it, but I agree with SEPowell, you can at least call the trainer and have a civil conversation- who knows where it may lead? Maybe nowhere- bc he probably knew- but you can at least talk. I am a big believer in communication- honest and open, and not confrontational.

In our cases, the one that aspirates must have a tie forward to allow him to hopefully live a comfortable and useful life, but there is a chance it will not be successful- but we will spend the $2K to hopefully give him that life. He is scheduled for surgery next Weds AM at a well known clinic in NJ. As far as the horses that roar go, they are nice big quiet sound geldings. We will adopt them out inexpensively for trails or low level stuff, and stand behind them. Maybe whoever adopts them will even decide to do the surgery! The vets gave them the OK, even for eventing to maybe Novice- but we will see. (I feel heartened by all of the people who have successfully ridden and shown horses that roar on this thread.) We did have a tieback done a few years ago by a vet that perhaps was not experienced enough with the procedure and we lost the horse in the end, so I understand your hesitation.

Perhaps the solution, after you speak to the trainer, is to offer the horse for sale at a fair price with full disclosure, take your losses, and move on. Kudos to you for taking so many OTTBs and restarting them-these horses need as many people as possible to showcase their talents. I am sorry that this happened but as you know, the more horses you handle, the more stuff like this you will probably run into. We see stuff we have never seen in all of our 40+ years of working with horses, and 20+ years on the track. Sorry that some posters were on the attack- but that seems to be the way of the internet. Just keep your head up and stand on your principles. No need to respond to the sniping......

Let us know what you decide to do!

Bev Strauss
MidAtlantic Horse Rescue

Thanks Bev! You do great work; I only wish I could help as many horses as you do! Best of luck with your guys surgery; I sure hope it is successful!

[Meredith Clark]

err, Meredith, you bought a horse straight from the track, yes? .

Yep- you're totally correct and I am NOT trying to insult CANTER in anyway (my other tab is CANTER.org to see if I can find a nice mare for myself :D ) I was just playing devil's advocate to the idea that "if you go through a rescue you're safe". I'm also coming from a bit of a different angle because the only horse I ever bought as a "re-sell project" was that one filly- 95% of the time i'm shopping for myself!

I've never bought a restarted CANTER horse so i'm sure that's a lot safer but I think some people have the idea that if a reputable organization like CANTER has a horse listed saying "the trainer says he's never taken a bad step" that the horse is 100% sound and will resell for 10k in 6 months.

I'm ALL about personal responsibility, especially when getting an OTTB- that's why I still have my cribber/headshaker/kissing spined crazy man of a OTTB!

It does frustrate me that rescues (not CANTER) continue to work with trainers that have repeatedly lied, cheated and been shady in their horse selling. It gives the rescue a bad name and leaves buyers jaded and possibily unwilling to adopt another OTTB.

[atr]

Not Lily here, but yes, mine went from no noise to noise in about three months, and then it progressively got worse as the flap became more paralysed. Vet did not want to do the tie back surgery (this was before lazers were in common use) until the flap was sufficiently paralyzed that it wouldn't tear itself apart again. This is why you go to a vet who does a lot of these things.

According to my vet, big horses going through growth spurts (not just upwards but outwards) can develop this problem--my horse is a good 17 hands and was putting on a lot of size and muscle at the time. The nerve that controls the left side of the larynx is very long and wraps around the heart (same as in humans--I have a friend who is a heart surgeon who was fascinated by this--one of the things they have to look out for when doing heart surgery is not to damage that same nerve, or they get the same kind of issue.) So it is prone to damage.

Jasper had a trach done to get some extra stuff taken out of his windpipe area at the same time--forgive me, it's a long tine ago, but I seem to remember it being described as a bit like an equine tonsilectomy. That was a bit gungy to deal with, took about a month of daily cleaning of what amounted to mucus and blood being blown through a hole in his throat latch, but nothing the average horse person couldn't handle.

I'd not hesitate to do it again.

(You'll find a suprising number of large-sized, imported warmbloods have had this surgery, and it may well not show up on your PPE unless you specifically ask for a scope, but that's another story entirely...)

[RiddleMeThis]

There are NO surgeries (or significant non surgical treatments) for which you cannot find a host of horror stories on the internet and elsewhere. Ditto. In fact I would bet there are more horror stories online, then there are good stories. Why? Because its more interesting. There arent shows on TV about people going in and having perfect routine surgeries, there are shows on about people going in for routine surgeries and having problems. But that doesnt mean the majority are having problems. They are outside the norm, and thus what is talked about more.

I would do the surgery.

[nightsong]

You shouldn't own a horse if you aren't willing to pay vet bills.
Why are you assuming that I am not paying vet bills? Obviously you are rolling in dough and can hand over the Gold Card when anything goes wrong, but it doesn't make those of us that can't unfit owners.
:lol::lol: I'm on Social Security :lol::lol:!!

[nightsong]

I never said I was a hoarder or I couldn't afford to pay my vet bills. I just can't spend all my money on one horse
Like i said, unwilling to pay vet bills.

[je.suis]

What's done is done. Have the surgery or trail ride. One of mine had the surgery and is fine. He was such a spectacular jumper that my vet and trainer felt it was worth it. I did and it was. He won up and down the East coast. Just be certain you have a competent surgeon. If you don't feel the cost will enhance his performance or resale, you now have a new horse to love in the paddock.