Unethical Horse Race in Mongolia???? Anyone know about this? [Archive]

pluvinel

Jun. 30, 2009, 08:18 PM

http://www.thelongridersguild.com/mongolia.htm

At a thousand kilometers, the Mongol Derby would be the largest non-sanctioned endurance race ever attempted. Set to be run this summer in Mongolia, nearly a thousand semi-wild under-sized native horses have been drafted into an effort which deliberately flaunts international endurance racing rules.
.....
The horse race is being promoted by Tom Morgan, a native of Great Britain whose company, The Adventurists, previously specialized in enticing adventure-hungry tourists into signing up to race junk cars to distant national capitals.

"We don't make any safety arrangements. Our adventures are designed to be just that, so organising a support crew would rather take the edge off things. People are made painfully aware that what they're entering into can be extremely dangerous," Morgan's website cautioned.

Connie Caudill, President of the American Endurance Ride Conference, is one of the many equestrian leaders who have warned that Morgan's Mongol Derby will severely damage the sport and may well lead to horses being ridden to death.

"This will set endurance racing back 50 years," Caudill said, then added, "This isn't an endurance race, it's entertainment that will undermine endurance racing all over the world."

"This is going to be all about the endurance of the rider, as opposed to the horse," said a spokesperson for Morgan's company.

Contestants are riding straight into danger.

"They're providing us with these yellow brick trackers, so we can activate the emergency beacon if our horse is injured and we can't walk it in," one rider said. "The only other time you're supposed to activate the beacon is if you feel your life is in immediate danger. There's only one emergency medical helicopter in all of Mongolia."

Food and water will also be an obstacle during the so-called Mongol Derby.

"We're still looking into the food options," the naïve young contestant told the press. "They're going to give us GPS locations to the wells, where we'll be able to get water, and they don't guarantee that the wells will have water. They want us to be careful because there are packs of wild dogs that surround those wells."

When it was learned that Morgan's race appears to violate the three primary principles of endurance racing, namely no commercial exploitation of the horse, a marked route and confirmed sources of water, the world's largest coalition of riders, explorers and editors launched an international petition asking the Mongolian president to halt the race and urging Princess Haya, President of the FEI, to ban the competitors for life.

Beverley

Jun. 30, 2009, 11:41 PM

Nope, know nothing about it. I will say that I saw a documentary (on National Geographic, perhaps, but I could be wrong) on Mongolian horses some months back, and they do traditionally breed and race horses for about a 25 mile flat out gallop kind of race, with kids riding- I was impressed with that, they showed the training, conditioning, etc and at the end of the race those horses looked like they could go around again.

But- the link you post only gives partial information- certainly alarming on its face, but I'd like to know more impartial facts on the matter, myself.

rainechyldes

Jul. 1, 2009, 12:55 AM

Yes I've heard of it. The race and the protest involved as well.
I can see why we (as endurance entities ^ distance riding associations would protest- in regards to the horse issues- thats not how we compete

however on the same note, I myself am pretty ambivalent about it, maybe that makes me the bad guy I dunno. I consider it a badly designed moeny making stunt- to confuse this kind of race with 'endurance' is kind of meh. I don't know that the protest against the race will aid/hurt the sport of distance riding more so then they are stating holding the race itself would.

magnum

Jul. 1, 2009, 01:26 AM

Nope, know nothing about it. I will say that I saw a documentary (on National Geographic, perhaps, but I could be wrong) on Mongolian horses some months back, and they do traditionally breed and race horses for about a 25 mile flat out gallop kind of race, with kids riding- I was impressed with that, they showed the training, conditioning, etc and at the end of the race those horses looked like they could go around again.

..Yes, the traditional one is the Naadam festival race ... there are casualties expected .... There are severely injured horses (and children) and horses who must be disposed of afterwards (.... in a culture that consumes horse flesh ...) ...

This upcoming race sounds absolutely nuts....

Bells

Jul. 1, 2009, 09:59 AM

An earlier post about this race:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=205306&highlight=mongolia

caffeinated

Jul. 1, 2009, 10:04 AM

I dunno, the actual website, once I looked at it, took a lot of hysteria out of it for me.

Sounds like it will be much harder on the riders than the horses, anyway.

Beverley

Jul. 1, 2009, 10:13 AM

..Yes, the traditional one is the Naadam festival race ... there are casualties expected .... There are severely injured horses (and children) and horses who must be disposed of afterwards (.... in a culture that consumes horse flesh ...) ...

I don't think so, at least based on the show I saw. These folks take their race horses and their breeding and conditioning very seriously- they don't run 'em to kill 'em.

But if indeed a horse were to die during the event (happens in lots of disciplines despite best efforts to the contrary), well, eating the meat is a splendid use of an otherwise wasted resource.

katarine

Jul. 2, 2009, 09:36 AM

meh. I've known a few horse more suited to plating than posting :)

Equibrit

Jul. 2, 2009, 10:19 AM

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=210840

If you are going to bitch about it at least bitch from a knowledgeable position !
The green eyed monster is raising it's ugly head again. It seems to be a very well thought out and run event. It's just not run by the "Endurance" community, which I think is the main problem.

http://mongolderby.theadventurists.com/

The Mongol Derby 2009 is a true humdinger of an adventure, and to make it even better, it aims to save a bit of the world too. Like all the other marvellous offerings from co-organisers The Adventurists, each rider taking part has to raise a minimum of £1000 for the official Mongol Derby charity, Mercy Corps. Thanks to the riders' hard work and clever tricks the inaugral edition of the world's longest and toughest horse race will raise more than £25,000 for charity.

One of our main principles is that we don't blur the line between giving money to charity and having a bloody good adventure. So we don't touch a single penny of the money that is donated, it goes direct to the charity. When you give some of your hard earned cash to a rider you can be sure it all goes to the right place.

The Mercy Corps project being funded by the riders is in Mongolia - we think it's important that adventures like this support the regions and countries that make it all possible by hosting the event and providing huge amounts of support. You can find out more about our official charity, Mercy Corps, by clicking here (http://mongolderby.theadventurists.com/index.php?page=charities)..................

We are running the Mongol Derby in close partnership with the Mongolian herding community, who will be providing the horses at each Urtuu. Not only will we be rewarding them handsomely for their part in the Derby we will also be providing full veterinary care for the horses before, during and after the race. The Morin Urtuus will stretch along the full 1000 km of the race at intervals of around 40 km.

The Urtuus will be manned by nomadic herding families and will offer the opportunity to rest, refuel and change your steed before the next leg. You will also find local food, usually involving mutton with mutton, and mutton sauce washed down with horse milk. You can either switch horses and push on, or if you're bored of your tent sleep in one of the gers.

rainechyldes

Jul. 2, 2009, 04:52 PM

If you are going to bitch about it at least bitch from a knowledgeable position !
The green eyed monster is raising it's ugly head again. It seems to be a very well thought out and run event. It's just not run by the "Endurance" community, which I think is the main problem.

I don't believe anyone was bitching. So you might want to rein in the horse a tad.

I will not agree that the protest against it is envy - this statement shows you aren't speaking from a knowledgeable position either.

As I said, - I for one am fairly ambivalent about the issue- meaning I haven't made up my mind.

However - I know the endurance world is questioning things such as proper vet care, and safety as their main concerns. I don't feel they are far off the mark there, as I'm sure you would agree, on the site (I read it) there is very little mention of how to be dealing with horses that go lame/metabolic etc.. do these riders even know how to recognize a metabolic horse partway through it's 'leg'?

These are valid concerns. Just because they are hardy ponies in a remote section of the world , to my mind doesn't mean they don't deserve the same handling/care a European or NA horse would when running at distances.

If they have appropriate vet care, I as an ENDURANCE rider, really don't care if they run it, and it's not an endurance run event, and I'd bet you'd get the same answer from most endurance riders.

Its the obvious lack of 'safety net' for both horse and rider is the problem. And thats it.
If thats bitching well.. I'll happily bitch then.

I do think the endurance and long riders guild making the statement 'this will put back endurance 50 years' is a bit over the top and dramatic. To me that's a bit panicky, I wold prefer they as an entity said 'We are not associated nor do we condone this race in any shape way or fashion"
But then I dislike hysterics:)

twofatponies

Jul. 2, 2009, 05:23 PM

We are running the Mongol Derby in close partnership with the Mongolian herding community, who will be providing the horses at each Urtuu. Not only will we be rewarding them handsomely for their part in the Derby we will also be providing full veterinary care for the horses before, during and after the race. The Morin Urtuus will stretch along the full 1000 km of the race at intervals of around 40 km.

The Urtuus will be manned by nomadic herding families and will offer the opportunity to rest, refuel and change your steed before the next leg. You will also find local food, usually involving mutton with mutton, and mutton sauce washed down with horse milk. You can either switch horses and push on, or if you're bored of your tent sleep in one of the gers.

This part seems in stark contrast to the impression I got from the anti-event links, which implied horse and rider would be completely on their own, with no sources of food or water except what they could find from a map, no vet care, etc. etc.

It's hard to decide from the two biased sources (the organizers and the anti-event folks) what's really going on or how it will turn out.

brightskyfarm

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:09 AM

If you thoroughly read through the website...

http://mongolderby09.theadventurists.com

each rider will have a gps, a signal can be used in case of emergency, and aid will promptly arrive. They are riding at 25 mi intervals.. and yes, through some rather desolate terrain, but not actually *alone*. I read it through and I think they pretty well covered all their bases. It will be interesting to watch and see how it turns out....... each rider raising 5K for charity, not a bad offer.
Im not so sure how comfortable riding one of those *ponies* would be, but ceertainly an eventful ride!
There is also a page detailing information on each of the riders...only one American.
August 22nd is the start date.
Personally, I think the food offered would do me in long before anything else....that may very well be the real challenge here.
the organizers sense of humor (they are Brits afterall)... has to be admired as well...
quote:
To sum that all up, The Adventurists is all about getting out into the world, getting yourself into as much shit as possible, then hoping to God you can find a way out. Glorious mayhem if you will.
Ive picked a rider, found her also on facebook and will follow her adventure(S) Her blog is a riot!... SO, we'll see.

Doodlebug1

Jul. 12, 2009, 02:48 AM

Horse and Hound are following this too, but certainly don't see it as 'unethical'. Katy's blog talks about the selection process and preparation too....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/5125/284921.html

Basha

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:37 AM

The last fortnight has seen an extraordinary outpouring of concern from horse lovers, explorers and Long Riders around the planet, all of whom have added their voices to a collective cry aimed at stopping the so-called Mongol Derby. Here is a link which will provide you with the latest news about this ill-conceived and perilous plan, including details of how one high profile contestant has withdrawn from the race, a possible connection between race organizers and the US government, as well as forums, news stories and blogs, all of whom are monitoring these events around the world.
http://www.thelongridersguild.com/mongol-comments-water.htm

For the last two weeks the tour company the Adventurists have been busy telling the world that all equine health concerns were being overseen by the reputable NGO, VET Net. This claim was also published and promoted by Mercy Corps in Portland, Oregon and by the Horse & Hound magazine in London.

In an exclusive interview with the Long Riders Guild, an official VET Net spokesman confirms that their organization is not involved, that they were not aware that their name was being used to promote the race, that they consider the race a threat to the small native horses and disrespectful of Mongolia's equestrian heritage. The official concludes by joining the Long Riders' Guild in urging the Mongolian government to halt the race immediately.

VET Net and the Mongol Derby

The following interview was held between Dr. Thomas Juergens DVM and officials of the Long Riders' Guild on July 11, 2009. Dr. Juergens is an American equine practitioner and advisor to VET Net, the Mongolian NGO which has been linked to the Mongol Derby. According to documents released on July 1, 2009 by Tom Morgan, and his English tour company, the Adventurists, stated that the renowned Mongolian veterinarian training program, VET Net, was associated with providing equine medical assistance during the race.

"We are working with an American veterinary NGO based in Mongolia called Vet Net," Morgan's press release declared.

In an effort to placate irate donors, PR representatives of the Portland based charity, Mercy Corps, also circulated VET Net's name so as to offset public anger. According to Dr. Juergens, officers of the highly respected medical organization were not even aware that their organization was being linked to the race, nor do they support it in any way. In fact, VET Net's spokesman has denounced the event.
http://www.thelongridersguild.com/vet-net.htm
"This race negates everything we've been teaching the Mongolian people and veterinarians for the last ten years because here we have the concern of foreigners racing horses to death. Have you ever seen a horse raced to death? It's horrific."

Equibrit

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:37 PM

But- you are the "Longriders guild". Why do you think somebody reading your post would take anything you say seriously?

rainechyldes

Jul. 12, 2009, 03:41 PM

But- you are the "Longriders guild". Why do you think somebody reading your post would take anything you say seriously?

A lot of people take what longriders and endurance officials as well as NGO/VET NET have to say seriously.

Are you actually suggesting that the entities that are highly involved in regulating.vetting and riding distance events worldwide (FEI levels) don't know what they are talking about? But a entity such as the adventurists do? uhm..ok. *I have a bridge for sale to*

In well regulated events with rest stops , vet checks each leg, horses still can get distressed and end up on fluids etc. as I said, if it's well run . with experienced distance vets who know what to look for, etc, I personally don't care if they run it. (believe it or not, equine vets actually need to learn how to vet a distance horse- all the vets here are mentored and learn from other endurance vets before flying solo)

Also , more importantly. A 40 km leg is very long. Too long in fact to be between vet checks. Most 'loops' in endurance racing run between 12-17 miles. In a pinch they can be up to 24, (40 km) however that is much more rare then common. For each leg to be this long, well without appropriate vet care I expect to be seeing distressed horses. Of course we'll never hear about THAT part.

the NGO/VET NET being linked to the race, and actually being totally unaware of their participation (in that they aren't) should be a red flag to anyone who is involved in horses, regardless of disciplines. That actually surprised me, when I read the newer info stating that NGO was involved, I was like cool - that's being smart.
So.. even the vet system in place in Mongolia is against the race- I think that says something.

(starting to remind me of the bush races that used to get run over here- that we all fight against, they are horrific to say the least, no vet control, unconditioned horses and negligent riders., makes for a bad bad thing. )

TO my mind, the fact the proceeds are for charity is neither here nor there, and shouldn't be the argument made to defend a race run, that appears to be not quite up to par when it comes to safety and vet coverage.

horsepub

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:14 PM

But- you are the "Longriders guild". Why do you think somebody reading your post would take anything you say seriously?

Equibrit, your ignorance is staggering, then i noticed your location - the deep south. You have no idea what you are talking about and since this issue is about exploiting a culture and it's horses, I can only surmise that you care about neither. Educate yourself about this and read the original article that is online and in the current issue of HC magazine. www.horseconnection.com

Equibrit

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:44 PM

Equibrit, your ignorance is staggering, then i noticed your location - the deep south.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha - I think that's known as prejudice !

The Adventurists

Jul. 15, 2009, 12:37 PM

Hi Everyone,

We are aware of false statements currently being circulated about the Mongol Derby and would like to take the opportunity to reassure everyone about the safety and welfare of the Mongolian horses with some information about the event.

We wanted to take the opportunity to send you the most recent news release and accompanying document explaining in brief some of the logistical arrangements for the Mongol Derby.

If you would like any more information or you have any questions please do drop us a line - our websites may be written in a humourous tone but we do take what we do incredibly seriously, particularly when it comes to animal welfare for the Mongol Derby - we think that perhaps this tone is sometimes misunderstood. It's also important to point out that horse welfare has been at the very top of the agenda since the very beginning of the Mongol Derby way back in early 2008 and these systems have been in development for quite some time.

Also, at the very beginning of this forum there is a particularly misleading quote that has been circulated widely and in our view unfairly:

"We don't make any safety arrangements. Our adventures are designed to be just that, so organising a support crew would rather take the edge off things. People are made painfully aware that what they're entering into can be extremely dangerous," Morgan's website cautioned."

This quote is taken from The Adventurists central website - www.theadventurists.com - and reflects the setup of our vehicle based adventures. The Mongol Derby is a departure from our standard model and the Mongol Derby website has details of the emergency back up systems in place - www.mongolderby.com. It is not accurate to apply this quote to the Mongol Derby and a brief check of the websites would have confirmed this.

News Release as a PDF online:
http://media.theadventurists.com/files/newsreleases/MD09_Horse_Welfare_Press_Release.pdf

Horse Welfare and Race Logistics Document available online here:
http://mongolderby.theadventurists.com/files/newsreleases/MD09_Horse_Welfare_Logistics_Announcement.pdf

Regards,

The Adventurists

mongolderby@theadventurists.com

rainechyldes

Jul. 15, 2009, 01:04 PM

However your website still states this:

How will the horses be looked after?
Since the Mongol Derby was just a gleam in The Adventurists eye we've been consulting a Mongolian veterinary NGO as to how best care for the horses before, during and after the race. Using their network of trained vets, as well as world class veterinary medicines, the Derby horses are going to be expertly looked after. This network of vets will be assisted by Mongolia's head equine vet and a vet with 32 years of experience flying to Mongolia from the UK for the Derby.

NGO has equivocially stated that they are NOT participating, so.. I guess that either you ought to change this quickly to reflect your new arrangements, or.. you are lying? Or maybe they are?
the vets say they don't condone it, yet these are the very same vets your site states are the control vets? - As the saying goes, something is fishy in Denmark.

Tying organizations to your event that are not participating as a PR move, doesn't make you look all that professional. - just saying.

and heres something you (The Adventurist you!)might wish to read :)

http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/news/read_983_VET-Net,-the-Adventurists-and-the-Mongolian-Derby.html

Equibrit

Jul. 15, 2009, 02:57 PM

NGO = Non-Governmental Organization

Does not refer to a specific organization. Are you implying that any change of NGO should have been approved by outside parties?

Xanthoria

Jul. 15, 2009, 04:37 PM

Also , more importantly. A 40 km leg is very long. Too long in fact to be between vet checks. Most 'loops' in endurance racing run between 12-17 miles. In a pinch they can be up to 24, (40 km) however that is much more rare then common. For each leg to be this long, well without appropriate vet care I expect to be seeing distressed horses. Of course we'll never hear about THAT part.

It's my understanding that each horse will do 25 mi / 40km in one day. And that's it.

On AERC etc endurance rides of 50-100 miles they do 50-100 miles in one day.

Can a rider covering 25 miles over unfamiliar, unflagged terrain go without one pee break, map reading break or meal break? Doubt it - they will be stopping. But the Tevis cup with it's much heavier riders allowed AFAIK has two 60 minute rest stops at 30 miles in, and 70 miles in.

The Mongolian event caps rider weight at 130#, but Heavyweight AERC divisions in AERC competitions are "over 211 pounds including tack"

So purely from a weight carried and time on the trail perspective, I'd FAR rather be a Mongolian pony doing one 25 mile stint with 130# + tack than an Arabian (pony, often) doing 100 miles with 211#.

Equibrit

Jul. 15, 2009, 04:55 PM

I would be willing to bet that these horses do at least 25 miles a day regularly in the course of their normal daily lives. (They belong to nomadic herdsmen)

horsepub

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:08 PM

The Mongolian event caps rider weight at 130#, but Heavyweight AERC divisions in AERC competitions are "over 211 pounds including tack"

So purely from a weight carried and time on the trail perspective, I'd FAR rather be a Mongolian pony doing one 25 mile stint with 130# + tack than an Arabian (pony, often) doing 100 miles with 211#.

The mongol derby caps the weight at 85 kilos plus 10 kilos for tack. that's 95 kilos which is 209 POUNDS!! Not 130. Rethink the image of a 14 hand horse carrying 209 pounds!!! Still would rather be the mongol pony? I think not!

Wow, the misinformation coming in on this from the Adventurists and Equibrit who is obviously a shill for the Adventurists, is unbelievable. From their latest press release, put out to try to answer the issues raised it says:About The Mongol Derby
Hosted in a country where the horse is part of the fabric of the nation, the inaugural Derby will take endurance horse racing to a new level.
Then in the heading of the next paragraph –
Is this an endurance race?
The Mongol Derby is NOT an endurance race, and has never been described as
such.
Really? The Adventurists also claim that the riders are experienced horseman. Look at the website and click on the riders profiles. One guy is pictured on a horse in his underwear and says he got back in the saddle in January for the first time is like over 20 years. He also has been rubbing alcohol on his rear end to toughen the skin. These participants won't know when their horses are under duress and wouldn't recognize a pulled suspensory if they saw it. Certainly not the occasional dressage riders and recreational riders they have duped into paying for this folly.
And as for Equibrit's statement about the NGO. Why did the Adventurists take the reference to VET NET out of their current press releases when previously they were mentioned as being involved? And why has one of the saddle sponsors pulled their logo from the Adventurists website? Lots of questions and no real answers from the Adventurists. It's easy to say you will deal with these issues but then offer no details. You still refuse to name this so called British Vet with 32 years of experience. Why don't you just tell us who it is? What's the cover up?

bort84

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:11 PM

Though I find the event a bit distasteful in general, I had decided the horses would probably fare okay, though the riders might be in for more than they'd imagined.

However, I am concerned that Vet Net is saying they are not involved in any way. Could there perhaps be another, lesser known "Vet Net" that is being used instead?

Equibrit, does that not seem strange to you? I suppose it's possible that Vet Net is actually involved and somebody got their wires crossed. But if The Adventurists claim that Vet Net would be involved turns out to be false, wouldn't you consider that a bit strange and potentially concerning?

I also don't see why we need the harrassment to make a point. I'm from the Midwest originally (Chicago area), and I've since moved to the South. Certainly there are some noticeable differences in opinion the farther away you get from large cities, but I found that to be the case living up north too. And I consider myself quite liberal socially and sometimes overly sensitive to extremely conservative viewpoints. But I rarely call someone out on it unless it's just outright offensive and rude. Sometimes you do have to play nice with others even if you'd rather not.

@ Equibrit - some of the people that are voicing concern are pretty well informed, some are not. No reason to assume that everyone who's voicing concern is a complete idiot.

Also (just saw the last post), most of the profiles I looked at showed very experienced riders (much more experienced than I expected). Unfortunately, few of them have done endurance riding, so there is the worry that they might not recognize certain signs of stress.

Xanthoria

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:22 PM

The mongol derby caps the weight at 85 kilos plus 10 kilos for tack. that's 95 kilos which is 209 POUNDS!! Not 130. Rethink the image of a 14 hand horse carrying 209 pounds!!! Still would rather be the mongol pony? I think not!

Actually, would rather not be a 14hh Arabian carrying 211# over 100 miles in 24 hours, which is within regulations at Tevis and other 100 mile races AFAIK.

My friend who was going to ride in the Mongol Derby said the rider weight limit was 130# - I wonder where that came from or if I misheard her?

It's still less than 50-100 mile endurance races in the USA, where heavyweight category as I mentioned was "over 211#" over much greater distance on ponies/small horses - is there even an upper limit enforced at all?

saratoga

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:38 PM

There are no weight regulations in AERC- generally you see the bigger, heavier people on taller/stockier horses but not always. But of course, by the time you get to Tevis, for the most likely that horse and rider combination have been training and doing endurance rides together successfully for a long time.

rainechyldes

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:48 PM

NGO = Non-Governmental Organization

Does not refer to a specific organization. Are you implying that any change of NGO should have been approved by outside parties?

I know what NGO stands for.
My point was, according the the vets involved in the Mongolian NGO -they are not participating in the race or vetting it- yet the website clearly states that they are, (still) Even after Net Vet asked the statement be removed because it's misleading. - they haven't removed it. - that was my only point.

As I said before, if everything is done with equine health and safety correctly, I personally don't see a problem with the race. But they've yet to adjust their website to reflect the 'right' information- while at the same time telling everyone to not worry?
And the info they do have is vague- most distance events regardless of body - have no issue with revealing who their vets are: why the hush hush?

they need to have the proper info in place, then maybe people will chill out, was my suggestion.

rainechyldes

Jul. 15, 2009, 05:51 PM

I would be willing to bet that these horses do at least 25 miles a day regularly in the course of their normal daily lives. (They belong to nomadic herdsmen)

willing to bet?
do we know this for a fact.. I mean really?

And since it's a race- I suppose you are going to say that since they might do 25 miles in a day(herding- at a slow pace) that these riders aren't going to take off like a shot and run 25 miles non stop? After all..it's a race, not a safari.

Now an averagely fit horse can do a 25 mile stretch- at a slow pace. Would I (as an experienced distance rider RUN an averagely fit horse for 25 miles non stop - not on your life)

Plus looking through the bios, I can appreciate the guts it'll take to step forward and do this, but many don't appear to have a clue about distance riding.

Heres lets put in the point of view of another equine discipline, then maybe you will understand where a distance rider is coming from.

I'm going to host a charity event.
I want 50 trail riders to pay me 5000$
Then I'm going to put them on horses who possibly, "I'm willing to bet" can jump 5+ ft
Then they are going to go jump a fairly stiff xcountry course - every day for a week.
whomever is still standing, (whether they kill a horse doesn't matter to me) at the end of the week wins.

How's that work for you? See some issues here?:)
Im pretty sure the eventing world would be a tad concerned over this scenario no?
Would it possibly 'hurt' the eventing sport= I have no idea.

Equibrit

Jul. 15, 2009, 07:08 PM

horsepub

Jul. 15, 2009, 07:22 PM

For the sake of everything that is reasonable. Nobody HAS to explain anything to you or anybody else.
Suggest you do some research on "Eriin Gurvan Naadam". Mongolians and their horses have been taking part in endurance racing for centuries.

These are reasonable questions being asked Equibrit, but your response says all there is to say. Are you the emotional mouthpiece for the Adventurists? And yes, the Mongols have raced their horses using children under the age of ten. That is their right and that is their culture. It's a far different scenario then 200 lb foreigners paying money to escape their bored pampered lives by exploiting a third world country's people and horses to have an adventure. I guess you don't feel a need to explain any of this to the Mongolian people either.

Equibrit

Jul. 15, 2009, 07:30 PM

I guess you don't feel a need to explain any of this to the Mongolian people either.

No - They are taking part and would probably know more about it than you or me. I am nobody's mouthpiece, and don't see a need for people to be preaching to the choir. Of course, when it all goes off without a problem, they MUST be hiding something. It's very easy and mean spirited to cast doubt and very hard to defend against. Whatever the organizers say will be treated as somehow invalid, and NOBODY here has any basis of fact for making these allegations.

rainechyldes

Jul. 15, 2009, 09:04 PM

For the sake of everything that is reasonable. Nobody HAS to explain anything to you or anybody else.
Suggest you do some research on "Eriin Gurvan Naadam". Mongolians and their horses have been taking part in endurance racing for centuries. Why would you imagine that a bunch of comparatively inexperienced amateurs know better.

You are making gross exaggerations in trying to bolster an already weak case. An invitation has been made to you, by the folks actually putting on the race, to ask them about anything that worries you. How about doing that, then you can come back on here screaming about how they must be lying because they have a conspiracy going to kill Mongolian horses. This is a particularly useless exercise in stupidity.

you seem to be missing my point - if you are addressing me.
I have stated several times now IF they have valid/certifiable/named vet care, and the appropriate safety/equine health concerns covered, I don't care if they run it.
I don't HAVE a case to make. They are the ones who need prove they are capable of dealing with any and issues that will arise/oth equine and human (cuz we both know they will)

All I am asking is why are they so vague about who these vets are, what they are doing, etc - they seem fairly unwillingly to put forth that info. To me, that seems odd - especially considering the immense amount of questions being asked of the event and the group putting it on - by some pretty serious people. I would think in order to assuage concerns, they'd be bending over backwards to divulge the logistics and corresponding officials. (because in a distance event a vet is operating in an official capacity)

I don't think it's such a hard question, but it seems to really be so at this point. Is all I've ever said.:)

Equibrit

Jul. 15, 2009, 09:54 PM

you seem to be missing my point - if you are addressing me.
I have stated several times now IF they have valid/certifiable/named vet care, and the appropriate safety/equine health concerns covered, I don't care if they run it.
I don't HAVE a case to make. They are the ones who need prove they are capable of dealing with any and issues that will arise/oth equine and human (cuz we both know they will)

All I am asking is why are they so vague about who these vets are, what they are doing, etc - they seem fairly unwillingly to put forth that info. To me, that seems odd - especially considering the immense amount of questions being asked of the event and the group putting it on - by some pretty serious people. I would think in order to assuage concerns, they'd be bending over backwards to divulge the logistics and corresponding officials. (because in a distance event a vet is operating in an official capacity)

I don't think it's such a hard question, but it seems to really be so at this point. Is all I've ever said.:)

If I was a veterinary NGO supported by donations fom western nations, I would think twice about taking part in this event given the campaign of lies and inuendo demonstrated on this thread. It would be entirely possible that one Vet Org pulled out and was replaced by another who choses not to put their funding at risk. So, if that is the case - WAY TO GO GUYS - you cost the horses their vet care. I am surprised that the interfering do-gooders are not strapping themselves to chuck wagon wheels up in Calgary, where the count this year is up to 3 dead.

rainechyldes

Jul. 15, 2009, 10:13 PM

Heres a little food for thought:

"During an eight month investigation into the race, Long Riders in New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Great Britain, Mongolia and the United States confirmed that neither the Mongolian government, nor the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI), the international body assigned to protect endurance racing from exploitation, was involved in organizing the race."

For 8 mths they have been asking questions about this race, without receiving sufficient replies.
There are no lies or innuendos here.
And it is an endurance race. - what else are you going to call it?

And do you know WHY the FEI isn't outright banning the race and the competitors?

Because they say (the FEI) that because Mongolia isn't up to date on their FEI dues- they have no jurisdication and it isn't their problem (an actual reply from an FEI official)

More:
When it was learned that Morgan’s race appears to violate the three primary principles of endurance racing, namely no commercial exploitation of the horse, a marked route and confirmed sources of water, the world’s largest coalition of riders, explorers and editors launched an international petition asking the Mongolian president to halt the race and urging Princess Haya, President of the FEI, to ban the competitors for life.

Additionally, Britain’s Minister for the Horse, Jim Fitzpatrick, has been urged to scrutinize Morgan’s non-sanctioned race, and the Charity Commissions in England and Scotland received a complaint asking them to investigate the possibility that Mercy Corps participated in unacceptable behaviour.

Regardless of what happens out on the steppe in August, it is already plain to see that thousands of horse riders, equestrian explorers and endurance riders have banded together in an unprecedented act of solidarity designed to halt Morgan’s spectacle.

* so all these people are wrong, and the adventurists are right? A group of people who are not involved in horses at all, cept for this?*

Do a google search, I am truly amazed at the amount of people and groups protesting this event. It's not just endurance entities.

Equibrit

Jul. 16, 2009, 08:30 AM

If exploitation is raising funds for Mongolia and Mongolians - then guilty. Where is the commerce ?
Why would any body think they had authority over this event ?
If you read the arrangements made for the event you will see that adequate rest and watering stops are planned, and routes are marked. (It may not be with pretty little bits of coloured tape and such - but that would be an insult to the fragile Mongolian environment)
Why must you believe that an official sanction of some sort makes everything hunky-dory? After all the FEI sanctions all sorts of events where horses die.
I'm sure The Calgary Stampede is sanctioned in some way. Does that make the death of numerous horses somehow acceptable ?

Why do all these people protest, based on some imaginary scenario, against something that hasn't happened yet, and of which they have no first hand knowledge ?

Then again - I'm just a iggerent redneck from the deep sowth.

bort84

Jul. 16, 2009, 11:10 AM

See, but you were able to state that nicely = )

I honestly think the ponies will likely be fine, but it certainly would be best if The Adventurists had been posting the correct info on their site. I'm interested in hearing what happened to the Vet Net ties and why the name was ever used in the first place. Also, it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to have qualified vets on site at the stopping points.

The riders, well, I think they have no CLUE what they're getting into. Bleh, borrowed tack on choppy gaited, half broke ponies for days and days in a very harsh setting. Not my cup o' tea, thank you. I wonder if they have to tack them up themselves... What if somebody's girthy and takes off bucking. Teehee...

rainechyldes

Jul. 16, 2009, 11:45 AM

Then again - I'm just a iggerent redneck from the deep sowth.

Dont play the stupid ass card, I never said a thing about where you may/may not live- and frankly I don't care :) - and it has no bearing on the conversation.

As to the rest:

I did notice now their site has now changed, and they state there is a marked route, and water mapped.(good for them- there's a step in the right direction if you ask me)

- because looks like they are learning the hard way,and rightly so- that you have to plan these pesky little details, or equine organizations ALL over the world, jump down your throat.

IF they manage to actually get all the correct steps in place - hell, I'll be interested to watch - you seem to mistake, I've never been against the race in of itself, - just fairly concerned about the very transparent lack of planning. (When comparing screen caps - I capped their original pages a ways back - I see the site is slowly looking a bit more 'responsible' in its consideration of the horses (ponies) being used.

I'm not even going to go into the thought of riding a 12hh pony 40kms as a grown person. Weight limit or not. I wiegh in about about 140lbs these days- and I won't get on my sons 12 hh pony to school him:/

I can only hope they choose the bigger ponies. Since I know they range from 12hh-14hh as a rule. I'm assuming the riders will naturally lean towards picking the larger ponies.

FOR Charity isn't a good enough reason to not plan the logistics of such a large race and just wave your hands and go oh well, you all grab a pony, run like hell and maybe some of you will finish.

Poking at the Calgary Stampede , won't get a rise out of me- I already said, - I find the Stampede abhorrent, so you are preaching to the choir on that one. I wonder though, - would/will we hear about any horse related injuries /deaths from this race? I wonder if they'll report on that if it happens- which it will - I'll bet cold hard cash on it (an actual serious question- not being sarcastic)

I 've yet to see what outside independent news source will be covering the event.- I certainly doubt any of the riders are going to blog about injuring/killing a horse, or the adventurists either.

But of course, it won't matter, there'd be no investigation or censure applied to a rider who might potentially knowingly or more likely unknowingly cause a pony distress or worse (god forbid) because hm.. There is no equine organization watch dogging the event.

rainechyldes

Jul. 16, 2009, 11:57 AM

[QUOTE=gothedistance;4240428]You damn better believe they do.

The people who are paying to participate in this event are the types that bungie-jump from airplanes, run extreme marathons (like the 100 mile Massanutten Run -- check out their website for some interesting stories - I've helped at aid stations so I *do* know what goes on in a race that extreme), journey to the Arctic on dog sleds, and race sailboats around the world. Folks that do this are looking for the world beyond safe and sanitary -- they are looking for a way to test themselves to the maximum...and then take it even further by doing it in the nitty gritty without handrails, without safety nets, without seat belts. /QUOTE]

then perhaps they should strap on their running shoes and do it on foot?:)

I personally don't care a whit about the riders overly. Riders in endurance events are 'second' in health concerns to the horses (as I'm sure you well know:))

I keep saying- if they put up some valid and workable solutions to questions that equine orgs are asking (as it appears they are now doing) then I have no issues ith them attempting this. Why they didn't make arrangements right off the bat, - I have no idea. They would have avoided a heck of a lot of bad press.

rainechyldes

Jul. 16, 2009, 12:56 PM

the fact the riders had to sign some serious wavers and what not is why I said I'm less concerned with the riders welfare- I'm not insinuating they are ignorant of the risks to life and limb (their own that is) Do they know what they are in for- I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say yes. Are they prepared mentally and physically- who knows- I can't answer to that. I don't think anyone can.

the telling fact for me is as a 50/100 miler rider I probably don't think I could do this.. but eh. That's just me knowing my limitation. I've never presented myself as a extreme athlete in any way shape or form. Plus I'm old and creaky, and have been known to walk down stairs backwards for a few days after a 100.:) So I'd be hooped after a day or so, garanteed, out there.

I GET that part just fine. They are all adults, and if they choose to attempt this, that's fine by me, I've never disagreed to that particular part of the race to my recall? The only thing I 've questioned ever (well once) in regards to the riders is I didn't see very much distance riding in their resumes, and how that might reflect on the management of the ponies they are riding, in between the legs.

In that same way, I have no issue with endurance riding's lesser interest in the health of the rider - I'm an adult, I choose to go out there. My choice, my risk. I've been competing a damn long time, I'm not a newb by any stretch. I did not say Endurance sanctioned events are cavalier) don't put words in my mouth) I said - Riders health is secondary to the horses- horse first, then riders. Never ridden hurt? I have. More then a few times.

Would the press have been less negative if another animal was used- seriously how the heck would I know? Not something I can answer by any stretch of the imagination. But they aren't. They are using horses. that was what they picked to use. So there it lies.

And yes, I'm in full agreement that I think the adventurists created some of their own bad press by their (to use yourword:)) cavalier wording. No argument there. Which is unfortunate.

bort84

Jul. 16, 2009, 01:08 PM

Whew...

I'm just going to respond to the riders not having a clue point I made earlier = )

These are certainly all adventurous folks, and many of them seem to have quite a bit of experience doing tough adventurous stuff I would never attempt, haha. But a few of the profiles seem pretty light on that kind of experience too... Despite that, I think the long distance riding aspect is what's going to be hardest for a lot of them.

I think quite a few of the participants are going to develop some mighty saddle sores because I don't think enough of them are practicing riding for multiple hours (plus they're going to be riding tough little ponies in potentially ill fitting tack...) I know at least one participant has started going on some competitive endurance rides, but I think a lot of them are going to be surprised at the toll those hours in the saddle will take = )

I suspect more than a few might spend a good bit of time on foot, haha.

rainechyldes

Jul. 16, 2009, 01:52 PM

rc -

Never had to walk down the stairs backwards after a 50 or 2 day 100 -- but I wasn't far from crossing that line! I could match you one to one on the creaky bone issue, tho! :lol:

The very 1st 100 I did (while back now) I crept to work on monday morning. My office was at the time on the fourth floor. To my utter dismay , the elevator was being serviced. I tell you, climbing up and /down those stairs that day liked to kill me:) And definitely got a lot of odd looks on the way down! rofl

and big nods to the sheepskin, I certainly hope the riders catch onto that. I quite often ride in bike shorts and half chaps during the hotter part of the day during a race. the full sheepskin covering on my saddle is the only thing that makes that possible.

bort84

Jul. 16, 2009, 02:17 PM

They just need to know how to ride, and need to be able to stay in the saddle for long hours.

Like you, I think a lot will be spending a fair amount of time on foot. Then again...so do a lot of endurance riders. :)

I totally agree about not actually needing to go into a recognized endurance competition, I just think that some of these people may not be prepping with enough saddle time... Whoever wins this thing certainly will not have left that prep work out! I think they are allowed to bring their own tack, but I hope 1) the ponies don't object to anything they bring... that would be an unfun fight for the rider, haha and 2) that they have spent a LOT of time in those saddles to know that they actually are comfy after an entire day in it on a rough pony = )

These adventure types are a strange breed, haha. I'm just not cut out for it. I think I could enjoy a real endurance competition, but this "race" is just sheer insanity.

I do hope someone videos a good bit of this thing because I'm really interested to see the interaction between rider and foreign pony. I think there could be some VERY interesting moments unless each rider has some access to help from a competent Mongolian that has experience with these ponies. Considering all the different mounts they'll have, I bet at least one will be a bit of a rotten apple and put up some interesting "resistance", haha.

Equibrit

Jul. 16, 2009, 03:43 PM

Equibrit

Jul. 16, 2009, 05:02 PM

rainechyldes

Jul. 16, 2009, 05:14 PM

I was just guessing at the mph and times per gait to do a rough calculation to demonstrate the relative ease of the task at hand. You obviously have more experience and know the figures - so why don't these folks doing the shouting know this stuff ?

we do know it (sigh)
Again I'll repeat:
The only godforsaken questions that I ever asked was:
Did they have control (vets/marked routes/water marked etc etc) and the necessary logistics to hold such a large events. At first it appeared not- plus it also appeared they lied on there website about who the participating vet org was (since the org they claimed was overseeing- had no involvement at all)

And that the riders didn't seem to have much distance riding experience from their posted bio's.

From that simple question - there was:

onmg you all suck, this is for charity! (didn't answer my question)
omg you must think I'm just stoopid and ineducated! (didn't answer my question either)
omg the calgary stampede had 3 horse deaths- go whine about that instead! (didn't answer my question.)

by the look of the pages on the Adventurists - they've gone into some dmg control mode- and actually begun addressing these issues - to me, that appears they are making an attempt to be responsible to those matters - finally.

And I'll repeat again.. - never cared if they ran it, IF they made it safe(r?) for beasties and man. As in an actual safety net. Extreme athletes or not, I would hate to see a fatality of any sort. I don't think any of us would. (rider or pony)

Apparently you seem to be under the impression that if anyone questions something, - they are against it come hell or high water -it's not my personal crusade to halt the race- merely making observations of what I've been hearing/reading and my thoughts on it.

fyi @GTD - my understanding was they wouldn't be riding in their own saddles. Since the ponies are so small (even they state this-regular saddles won't fit them.. ?)

horsepub

Jul. 16, 2009, 06:03 PM

I was just guessing at the average mph and times per gait to do a rough calculation to demonstrate the relative ease of the task at hand. You obviously have more experience and know the figures - so why don't these folks doing the shouting know this stuff ?

Do you think they will be insisting that we should get horses checked by vets before, at checks and after hunting ?

Who is shouting Ignorbrit? The facts once again, since you can't seem to retain anything, are that we aren't talking about hunt horses, we're talking about small mongolian ponies carrying up to 200lb westerners. 25 miles with a small mongolian child or adult is no big deal for these horses but they will be raced 25 miles by people who aren't experienced in endurance type riding atop ponies not used to that kind of weight. Your calculations to demonstrate the relative "ease of the task at hand" are the ramblings of someone who hasn't bothered to read the experiences of those that have ridden the Mongolian Steppe. Relative ease? You've got to be kidding me. Get out of the sun.

Equibrit

Jul. 16, 2009, 08:25 PM

Equibrit, your ignorance is staggering, then i noticed your location - the deep south.

I'm sorry it is really hard for me to see somebody who can say that as educated in any way. Insulting me and an entire region of country does nothing to bolster your case, nor does it sell publications or advertising. All you have accomplished is to make yourself look ridiculous. Do any of you have any legitimate complaint with the Adventurists other than their not having published their plans to your satisfaction ?
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/286390.html

The Adventurists

Jul. 21, 2009, 08:38 AM

Hi,

The Adventurists would like to respond to recent statements published online concerning the veterinary care for the horses taking part in the Mongol Derby, and to clarify their relationship with the Mongolian veterinary NGO, Vet Net.

(Full statement is available here as a PDF:
http://theadventurists.com/files/newsreleases/MD09_Mongol_Derby_Veterinary_Update.pdf )

Horse welfare has always been at the top of the agenda for The Adventurists, and hence in November 2008 they contacted Vet Net, in order to seek advice on veterinary care for the 600 plus horses being ridden in the Mongol Derby.

The Adventurists would like to make clear that the two parties have been in regular contact since November 2008, by email, telephone and in person. Vet Net have consulted The Adventurists on the veterinary situation in Mongolia, on the availability of good quality medicines and on how best to provide veterinary care for the Mongol Derby horses. Vet Net also provided The Adventurists with the names and contact details of all their trained soum (village) vets along the Mongol Derby course.

According to an email from a representative of Vet Net to The Adventurists:
“The soum veterinarians are well qualified veterinarians. They are private practising veterinarians who have benefited from the world class drugs and equipment that we have been able to import and supply for them after they have received training in their use.”

This network of Vet Net trained vets will be providing vet care for the Mongol Derby horses over the 1000 kilometre Mongol Derby. They will be checking the horses during their pre-race training, immediately before they start, and after they have completed.

These Vet Net trained vets will be working in conjunction with a UK vet with 32 years of equine experience. This vet is being flown out to Mongolia especially for the Mongol Derby.

This UK vet will be following the race in one of the back-up emergency response vehicles. He will be equipped, as all the riders are, with a GPS spot tracker, and will respond to any emergency situations that arise. He will be following the race with an equine vet from the Mongolian government’s Ministry of Agriculture, who is fully supportive of the Mongol Derby.

All vets, herders, horse breeders and trainers involved in the Mongol Derby are being well paid by The Adventurists for their involvement. Horse welfare and respect for the Mongolian people and their culture is of the utmost importance to the organisers. The Adventurists hope that this information clarifies the recent confusion over Vet Net’s association with the Mongol Derby, and looks forward to the first of many successful editions of the event.

To read the full statement please follow this link for the PDF:

http://theadventurists.com/files/newsreleases/MD09_Mongol_Derby_Veterinary_Update.pdf

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact us directly.

All the best,

The Adventurists

rainechyldes

Jul. 21, 2009, 12:33 PM

The Adventurists would like to respond to recent statements published online concerning the veterinary care for the horses taking part in the Mongol Derby, and to clarify their relationship with the Mongolian veterinary NGO, Vet Net.

Horse welfare has always been at the top of the agenda for The Adventurists, and hence in November 2008 they contacted Vet Net, in order to seek advice on veterinary care for the 600 plus horses being ridden in the Mongol Derby.

The Adventurists would like to make clear that the two parties have been in regular contact since November 2008, by email, telephone and in person. Vet Net have consulted The Adventurists on the veterinary situation in Mongolia, on the availability of good quality medicines and on how best to provide veterinary care for the Mongol Derby horses. Vet Net also provided The Adventurists with the names and contact details of all their trained soum (village) vets along the Mongol Derby course.

These Vet Net trained vets will be working in conjunction with a UK vet with 32 years of equine experience. This vet is being flown out to Mongolia especially for the Mongol Derby.

Please explain then why Dr Juergen of NET VET and who is also the advisor on staff to Mongolia still insists NET VET is not involved ?

If not - please name the people in NET VET that you are in contact with.

Please name the UK vet involved?

If you answer those questions, you might find a lot of the negativity being removed.

horsepub

Jul. 27, 2009, 04:39 PM

The horseworld is up in arms about the running of the Mongol Derby.
Incredible new developments have the FEI involved at the direction of the United Arab Emirates. Linda Tellington Jones urges all endurance riders to unite against the Derby at the Tevis Cup. Princess Haya's husband involved with race despite being suspended by the FEI.
The latest news can be found here: http://www.thelongridersguild.com/alarming-alliance.htm

wendybird

Jul. 27, 2009, 10:46 PM

If you feel that this race should be stopped, here is an opportunity for you to make yourself heard:

http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/surveys/survey_18_Petition-to-halt-the-World%27s-largest-Outlaw-Endurance-Race.html

When is it due to start?

Beverley

Jul. 28, 2009, 12:11 AM

I have to honestly say I have not seen any cogent information supporting a whole lot of hysterical allegations. As a member of 'the horse world,' I don't find myself 'up in arms.'

JackSprats Mom

Jul. 31, 2009, 09:08 PM

I have to say I'm kinda astounded by folks that say a herding horse can race 25 miles with no problems..."Doesn't sound that grueling for horses. ( An average hunting day !)"

I do LD endurance, and I will tell you right now, 25 miles is no walk in the park if you trot the whole thing and even a FIT horse can have issues with it.

Comparing a fit horse to a horse that herds is like comparing apples and oranges.

No a 25 mile ride is NOTHING like an average day hunting. I took a friend out once who hunts her horse on a regular basis, the day I took her out was a 'mellow' ride day, canter work for me, nothing strenuous as it was more for dressage training the conditioning. I figured as she hunts a couple times a month her horse would be fine. Within 30 minutes of starting her horse (not excited) her horse was dripping with sweat, mine hadn't even broken a sweat (not exagerating). I was amazed at the difference in fitness levels.

So now in saying that, my horse (who conditions with horses that train for 50-100 miles but only once a week not 3 times) is pretty damn tired and dripping with sweat at the end of a fast 25.

While we hope that horses will stop when they are pushed too hard I know very little about the mongolian ponies or the way they are broken in or ridden, it may not be in there nature to stop.

I guess all I am saying, is that while its no 100 miles a day, in my opinion, 25 isn't a walk in the park for horses untrained horse regardless of if they're used to being herding horses.

twofatponies

Jul. 31, 2009, 09:28 PM

Canter is approx 10-17 miles per hour, working trot is about 8 miles per hour, the walk is 4 miles per hour.

To walk 25 miles 6hrs 15 mins
To trot 25 miles 3hrs 8 mins
To canter 25 miles 1hr 30mins to 2hrs 30 mins.

If you trotted 10 miles, cantered 10 miles and walked 15 it would take approximately 4hrs 45mins .
It probably takes a little longer on a pony.
Horses are in their natural environment and only have to do this ONE TIME. Riders have to do the 25 miles 25 times with 25 different horses.
(1000k being 621.371 miles)

Doesn't sound that grueling for horses. ( An average hunting day !)

Please check the figures.

I rode like this in southern Brazil. The horses were ranged raised and range pastured. We WALKED three hours before lunch and three hours after lunch. Voila, 25 miles. The horses never so much as breathed hard, let alone broke a sweat. None of the ranch hands would trot or canter except for a very brief distance (maybe to catch up to another rider to chat) because they needed their horses to be fresh the next day, too. If I recall "wild" horses (or horses on large open range) tend to walk about 10 miles a day just grazing, going to water, etc.

rainechyldes

Jul. 31, 2009, 09:35 PM

I rode like this in southern Brazil. The horses were ranged raised and range pastured. We WALKED three hours before lunch and three hours after lunch. Voila, 25 miles. The horses never so much as breathed hard, let alone broke a sweat. None of the ranch hands would trot or canter except for a very brief distance (maybe to catch up to another rider to chat) because they needed their horses to be fresh the next day, too. If I recall "wild" horses (or horses on large open range) tend to walk about 10 miles a day just grazing, going to water, etc.

Here is the difference.

these ponies will be raced, since the first rider to cross the finish line wins.. do you see them walking all the way?

you took 6 hours to do 25. I totally agree, any horse can walk 25 miles.

The closing ceremonies are 15 days after the race start give or take. Sept 5th. so that means the slowest riders to finish just on the very last day have to ride 66kms/day or..41 miles.

So if they took 6 hours to ride 25 miles for every leg.. heck I'm not sure they'd even make it by closing ceremonies. So I dont see them walking the entire way.

now if you are racing, you would be doing 25 miles as fast as possible (I generally average 25 miles in about 3 hours give or take, depending on terrain , on a full sized & conditioned endurance horse). How fast do you think a 12hh mongol pony has to walk to manage that?:)

I do hope to see full disclosure of all horse related incidents during after the race, with sanctioned investigations into any horse injury/illness/death. It's expected to happen in every other discipline, and since the FEI is now somewhat involved- it should be an expected course of action.

Equibrit

Aug. 1, 2009, 10:58 AM

rainechyldes

Aug. 1, 2009, 02:04 PM

I have no doubt that the "Longriders Guild" will be taking responsibility for having instigated a change ! I wonder who will be protesting their future adventures for not being FEI sanctioned, and failing to publish every little detail of their arrangements to the satisfaction of A.N. Onymous

Elite endurance vets assist Mongol Derby organisers

Abigail Butcher, H&H news editor
31 July, 2009

Top international endurance vets (http://equestrian-business-finder.horseandhound.co.uk/directory/subcategory/equine_vets/25511) are to assist organisers of the Mongol Derby (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/397/284921.html) in ensuring the welfare of horses involved in what is being dubbed the "longest, toughest horse race in the world".

Last week, H&H reported on the international row that had broken out over concerns that the welfare of 700 horses taking part in the 1,000km race would be compromised (news, 23 July (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/286729.html)).

But since then, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) has stepped in to offer elite veterinary assistance to organisers, via the Mongolian government.

On Friday, 24 July, Ian Williams, head of non-Olympic sports for the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) met with Mongol Derby organisers (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/286729.html) on a "fact-finding" mission for the UAE.

"The UAE expressed a wish to provide high-level veterinary care, so we wanted a full briefing on provisions for the horses," he told H&H.

"It hasn't been finalised, but the UAE would like to provide a mobile equine hospital, along with international endurance vets (http://equestrian-business-finder.horseandhound.co.uk/directory/subcategory/equine_vets/25511) to assess the horses before they race, and as they arrive at the urtuus [stations]."

Starting on 22 August, 25 riders will race nomadic horses for nearly 1,00km across Mongolia.

The typically 12-14hh horses will be chosen by horse trainers and breeders (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/stallionsandstuds/index.php?ctxt=breedingnews), and inspected by vets (http://equestrian-business-finder.horseandhound.co.uk/directory/subcategory/equine_vets/25511) before taking part — and each will be ridden for no further than 40km.

A UAE vet will shortly travel to Mongolia to assess the horses that have been chosen for the race.

Antonia Bolingbroke-Kent of The Adventurists, which is organising the race in conjunction with Mongolian organisation the Tengri Group, said they were "thrilled" with the offer of assistance.

"It's an amazing offer — the event can essentially stay the same for the riders, but the horses will be looked after like kings," she said.

"We're adding little bits into the race to make it more compliant with FEI rules, but it's not going to be an FEI event."

Ms Bolingbroke-Kent added that all the international vets (http://equestrian-business-finder.horseandhound.co.uk/directory/subcategory/equine_vets/25511) will work alongside Mongolian vets, a collaboration organisers hope will leave a lasting legacy.

The Long Riders' Guild — an organisation of long distance riders that people can join once they have completed a continuous ride of at least 1,000 miles — has hit out at what it calls an "alarming alliance" between the FEI, UAE and The Adventurists, claiming the FEI is paying "salaries, flights and expenses" for top-notch vets.

Mr Williams said the Long Riders' claims were completely unfounded.

"We are offering no financial assistance whatsoever — we have looked into the facts for the UAE, so they can provide support for the horses, and then stepped back again," he said.

"We have been aware of the Mongol Derby for some time, but we have not been working with organisers."
The riders will arrive in Mongolia on 17 August, in time for a pre-race assessment with champion jockey Richard Dunwoody on 19 August. One rider, Katy Willings, is charting her training on www.horseandhound.co.uk/mongolderby (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/mongolderby)

I do know that the AERC (American Endurance Riders Conference) played some pretty heavy handed hardball to get actual experienced endurance vets involved.(Kate Riordan for one) Which is a good thing.

As well you may poo poo the Long riders guild, - but make no mistake there are some extremely knowledgeable and experienced people in that group- some who have even 'gasp' ridden in Mongolia on these ponies. And across Mongolia on their own personal horses, they do know of what they speak. :)

However the other issue concerning the UAE being involved is that it is Princess Haya's husband supporting/driving their involvement, who also happens to be suspended at the moment by the FEI for doping infringements of his endurance horses. So that is raising some eyebrows, big time.

I do certainly appreciate that the FEI has made some attempt to work on this, since that's a nice change from their original statement saying since Mongolia as a country is behind on their FEI dues, they have no interest in the welfare of the horses, or the race itself. (That was a huge disappointment to me - when I first read that) And the race organizers by default are making progress in working a lot harder to ensure the welfare of the horses/ponies is up to snuff.

as for publishing details on horse/rider welfare /incidents etc, do we not expect that from ANY horse involved enterprise. I don't get why it should be different because the event is not taking place in a 1st world country. Do that make it less important? Why should the be an investigation into an eventing/endurance/dressage/jumping injury or death, - but not a 1000km race? And I'm not the anon public, I'm an involved horse person, who is involved in the sport. that makes it MY business.

seems to me, it is just as equally important. Perhaps you feel because they are 3rd world horses, they shouldn't be granted the same respect and care? I hope I'm wrong, but thats certainly how you come across:/

twofatponies

Aug. 1, 2009, 02:14 PM

Here is the difference.

these ponies will be raced, since the first rider to cross the finish line wins.. do you see them walking all the way?

you took 6 hours to do 25. I totally agree, any horse can walk 25 miles.

The closing ceremonies are 15 days after the race start give or take. Sept 5th. so that means the slowest riders to finish just on the very last day have to ride 66kms/day or..41 miles.

So if they took 6 hours to ride 25 miles for every leg.. heck I'm not sure they'd even make it by closing ceremonies. So I dont see them walking the entire way.

now if you are racing, you would be doing 25 miles as fast as possible (I generally average 25 miles in about 3 hours give or take, depending on terrain , on a full sized & conditioned endurance horse). How fast do you think a 12hh mongol pony has to walk to manage that?:) [clip]

Faster than he can! :D

But seriously, the "facts" coming out of this event are very confusing, but I do hope that if they go through with it they have some common sense support and care procedures in place. A great thing about all the uproar is that even if they don't cancel it, they will respond to the complaints by modifying the event to better protect the horses and riders.

There was someone on this board a few months ago who had applied to participate and was asking how to condition herself? I think everyone was trying to persuade her no amount of ring riding would prepare her. I wonder if she went through with the plans?

Equibrit

Aug. 1, 2009, 11:10 PM

What I think is of very little importance. What I don't understand is why anybody would protest an event about which they know nothing.

Let me repeat;
WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY ANYBODY WOULD PROTEST AN EVENT ABOUT WHICH THEY KNOW NOTHING.

rainechyldes

Aug. 2, 2009, 02:38 PM

What I think is of very little importance. What I don't understand is why anybody would protest an event about which they know nothing.

But, a lot of them do know something about it. They know the terrain, they've been to mongolia and they've ridden there, is what I'm saying. You seem to have quite a hate on for Long Riders, you do know that Long riders have some very experienced riders who do travel in fairly remote regions? (And no I'm not a Long Rider guild member - therefore I have no donkey in that particular race)

AERC is chock full (obviously) of experienced distance riders - I think they know of what they speak as well.

The Adventurists have never done this before, and I'm happy to see they are now actively listening to people in the know- even if some of it was forced on them by bad press. I don't think using whatever resource and knowledge they are offered is a bad thing.

I don't think everyone in those organizations is fully against it- from what I see on ridecamp, etc, is that the majority of distance riders are fine with the race going forward, with the right safety and vet coverage and all that is required with that for both the horses and riders.

Equibrit

Aug. 2, 2009, 03:20 PM

But, a lot of them do know something about it. They know the terrain, they've been to mongolia and they've ridden there, is what I'm saying. You seem to have quite a hate on for Long Riders, you do know that Long riders have some very experienced riders who do travel in fairly remote regions? (And no I'm not a Long Rider guild member - therefore I have no donkey in that particular race)

They know nothing about this event - that is why they are doing all the shouting.

AERC is chock full (obviously) of experienced distance riders - I think they know of what they speak as well.

The Adventurists have never done this before, and I'm happy to see they are now actively listening to people in the know- even if some of it was forced on them by bad press. I don't think using whatever resource and knowledge they are offered is a bad thing.

And you know this how?

I don't think everyone in those organizations is fully against it- from what I see on ridecamp, etc, is that the majority of distance riders are fine with the race going forward, with the right safety and vet coverage and all that is required with that for both the horses and riders.

There is a similar broohaha going on in England about a private event being run by a citizen of the UAE which is offering some prize money. As it happens the prizes are better than the British establishment have on offer, so they are now calling into question the welfare of the horses. No matter that the UAE have the very best support on the planet and a number of the Endurance community are entered. Ask yourself why.

rainechyldes

Aug. 2, 2009, 07:40 PM

They do know about the event. read the actual AERC, Long Riders and the FEI correspondence regarding it.. Lets toss in the NET VET and NGO correspondence to, it's all there. I have, It's easily available in fact. :)

Well I am fairly sure the Adventurists have not run this event before, if they have, please point me to the when/where, I think some of the "shouters" as you say would like to see it, it might calm some of them no?

Haven't heard anything about a british event, so how would I be able to comment? As well, I don't think a british event has any bearing, same as your bringing up the Stampede did. Comparing apples and oranges never works for me:/

You seem to think there's some type of agenda here, I honestly don't think I can agree. I think many have repeatedly said, - if the safety and welfare of horse/riders is taken under the correct amount of consideration - we don't care about the race being held.

Do I think the mongol derby will be cancelled, no. Do I want it cancelled, never have said that either.

horsepub

Aug. 3, 2009, 02:36 PM

What I think is of very little importance. What I don't understand is why anybody would protest an event about which they know nothing.

Let me repeat;
WHAT I ON'T UNDERSTAND IS WHY ANYBODY WOULD PROTEST AN EVENT ABOUT WHICH THEY KNOW NOTHING.

When this race was announced, some of the top equestrian investigative journalists along with the LRG and HC magazine started asking questions. This is how you proceed to get information about something that you don't know about. This process took months and after interviewing ALL parties involved, answers were given, information gleaned, and a clear picture of this race became evident. The only one who doesn't get it is you equibrit. You are a hater, plain and simple. You hate the LRG and anyone else who would dare ask questions of an event that uses horses for entertainment and profit. Your hate is born of ignorance and your cavalier attitude towards the concerns of horse welfare lead one to believe that you care not one wit about horses. Are you jealous of those that get out in the world on horses and interact with them? Judging by the over 7,000 posts to this forum that you have made it is apparent that you don't get out much and would rather be an antagonist just for the sake of antagonism. The LRG won't be crowing about taking credit for the changes to the Mongol Derby because it isn't about them, it's about the horses, something you can't quite seem to get your brain around. And yes, the LRG was instrumental in getting the FEI involved, and hence the UAE, because until the article and press releases were made public, no one knew about this race. Others picked up the ball and ran with it and now the organizers have been forced to deal with the horse welfare issue in a real and transparent way. Speaking of transparent, what is your real agenda equibrit?

Equibrit

Aug. 3, 2009, 03:09 PM

hahahahahahahahahahahah............

Very funny !! You could probably get a gig here; http://www.thecomedystore.com

It's not worth wasting my time hating anybody, what's your excuse ?

horsepub

Aug. 3, 2009, 05:10 PM

hahahahahahahahahahahah............

Very funny !! You could probably get a gig here; http://www.thecomedystore.com

It's not worth wasting my time hating anybody, what's your excuse ?

Beautiful, i think this response pretty much sums up what you are all about; a joke!

Equibrit

Aug. 3, 2009, 06:05 PM

Is that the best you can do ? I'm sorry but that is not the product of a healthy mind. Or any sort of mind really.Is there any reason you are no longer posting links to your "publication" ? Do you spew the same sort of venom there ?

horsepub

Aug. 3, 2009, 06:41 PM

This is where the sport of endurance racing is headed thanks to the Mongol Derby, the UAE and the FEI. The Sheik is helping the Mongol Derby organizers because he can't be involved with any legit endurance race because of his suspension.

"Sheik Mohammed suggested that his status presented "exceptional circumstances" allowing for his ban to be reduced, the FEI ruling said."

And so the flood gates of unethical endurance racing have been opened.

Great Britain: ‘Private’ endurance ride sparks unrest

Horseandhound.com <http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/287270.html>
Abigail Butcher, H&H news editor
2 August, 2009

A 120km "private" endurance ride with an "unprecedented" prize-pot of £175,000 being organised and run by Dubai Equestrian Club (DEC) is causing consternation among UK riders.

The 120km event, called Ride with the Stars, will be held at Euston Park, Norfolk, on Saturday (2 August). It was announced on 14 July and will not be run under International Equestrian Federation (FEI) or Endurance GB (EGB) rules.

The ride is expected to attract a large field because every completing combination will receive prize-money.

Discussion about the last-minute addition to the endurance calendar is rife on the EGB members' forum.

One rider states: "Our ride organisers have put many hours of unpaid time into producing rides for this year and the future and, if we are not careful, they will not be there."

Others are concerned over welfare of horses ridden by inexperienced competitors keen to complete and win money.

"I would urge anyone who does not have extensive experience of competing at this level to think long and hard before entering," said another rider.

There have also been suggestions that the ride has been put on to allow Sheikh Mohammed to continue to compete. He is currently suspended from competition by the FEI while a doping enquiry is investigated (news, 16 April).

EGB chairman John Yeoman has warned members to remember the "very hard work" put in by ride organisers who are "understandably disappointed that this unscheduled ride is going to take place".

Also, just found out that the mongol herders are getting a whopping $10 per horse used in the derby. The Adventurists get $130,000 in entry fees, the UAE picks up the tab for the vets, and the overhead is a mere $8,000 for the horses. Sounds like a good money maker race to take to several third world countries with horses. This is just the beginning!!

rainechyldes

Aug. 3, 2009, 08:18 PM

After Equibrit mentioned a UK race, I went hunting for it, and assumed that was the one.

It's quite sad, for years in PNW esp up here, we fought the bush races as they were called, where horses were run to death for prize money. Now to have them started all over in bigger badder venues, just 'cuz' money talks. Is disgusting. I can only pray the FEI has some type of morals clause and can get Princess Haya out of there at least.

Equibrit

Aug. 3, 2009, 10:39 PM

I didn't see any mention of bushes. It's quite unblievable how you people come to these completely unfounded conclusions.

rainechyldes

Aug. 4, 2009, 12:06 AM

I didn't see any mention of bushes. It's quite unblievable how you people come to these completely unfounded conclusions.

you ar exactly right Equibrit, lets just toss out all controls, come on, lets do it! Every horse discipline, - lets legalize doping, running your horse to death oo how bout those rotational falls, who needs frangible pins! we should get rid of them don't you think? heck why even enforce helmets, thats sooo over done.

I vote we take every horse discipline back 40 years, after all it was more dangerous and interesting back then.

I have no idea why I'm feeding the troll, but eh, everyone has to eat.

horsepub

Aug. 4, 2009, 11:52 AM

So, guess who won the unsanctioned endurance "racing with the stars" event? The suspended endurance cheater, Princess Haya's husband the sheik, that's who. His money will corrupt the sport of endurance racing, as it already has. He has total power over the FEI.
They suspend him and he goes out and buys his own race. Oh, and in second place? His son, the other FEI suspended cheater. No wonder they became involved in the Mongol Derby. This is just the beginning of unsanctioned endurance racing for money. And when you throw that kind of money into the mix, the welfare of the horses become secondary to the prize money to be collected.

Equibrit

Aug. 4, 2009, 12:51 PM

The sky is falling !

rainechyldes

Aug. 4, 2009, 07:14 PM

Actually it is:

Maybe I'll put out my perspective in fairer terms of what I see happening in endurance, and that will make my point of view obvious. Not asking you to agree, just stating.

Back when I began competing in endurance 26 odd years ago. Organized rides with an overseeing body, and vet controls, to fight against the 'bush races- and there were a lot of deaths in those- and worked towards the building up of a sport that was fun, safe (as possible for both rider and horse) and controlled by vets- with the best interests of the horse in mind.
Things were going along swimmingly, although endurance has always been the lesser cousin in the mind of the horse riding/viewing public then other disciplines, but we were getting there, slowly. We got Pan/AM rides, we got world championship rides, and FEI status. It was looking better and better as the popularity of the sport slowly but steadily increased. Clubs got larger, people started to ride at an international level.

Then Dubai happened. And that was great, it promoted the sport of endurance and pulled it to the forefront. Horses who'd comepeted for years were suddenly worth more then a 1000$. IF you wished to sell one.

But then there's also this slide happening. Doping starting, and I'm not just speaking of the Sheik. Even local rides. Which I've found to my disgust. But with the growth of a sport, stiffer competition, people start looking for that edge, and it's not always the legal one.

The premise of endurance had always been twofold 'To finish is to win' and to not benefit from the horse, ie, prize money. Endurance was all about amateur sport at it's finest, no money from wins, just the win.

What the UAE is doing, by putting up prize monies, could potentially be a slippery slope, in that they are turning a not for profit sport into a 100mile racetrack.

Am I defensive about the sport of endurance, you bet I am. My family has been riding/training/breeding endurance horses for over 4 decades. I have no intention of sitting idly by while it becomes a corrupt enterprise for prize money, which is exactly where your UAE hero at the moment is attempting to steer it. Why? one simple reason, he doesn't want to play by the rules.