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View Full Version : Behavior of Grooms at Shows (Rant)



Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:29 AM
This past weekend we did the NCHJA Annual Benefit AA Show in Raleigh. Unfortunately we were stabled down the barn from a VERY BNT from Florida. Several of this BNT's trainer's were there and alot of grooms. Every day throughout the day we had to listen to constant yelling in spanish from the grooms, barking at women walking by (yes, barking & no I wasn't barked at)), constant catcalls, especially when an attractive teen walked by, and generally loud behavior. My daughter knows some spanish and said the grooms were making very explicit passes and remarks about body parts. We heard their clients yell at them several times in spanish to shut up but they never did. We know of at least one mom stabled across who went down to complain when there were trainers seated there witnessing and hearing everything, yet nothing was done about it. We considered complaining to the steward but since it wasn't involving a ring or class or competitor we were not quite sure what to do. I have been going to shows for many years and have never witnessed such behavior before. We don't think the grooms spoke english since the clients yelled at them to shut up in spanish.

Anyone have any suggestions? With all the increased awareness in professionalism you would hope that would carry over to employees as well. If the grooms behaved that badly at shows and were not called down, I can only imagine what it would be like to be in their barn. I realize a BNT is a BNT, but that would have been enough for me.

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BAC
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:34 AM
I don't think that behavior is acceptable in anyone's barn, BNT or not. I would have complained to both the BNT and the show management.

Mara
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:37 AM
I'm amazed ANY decent trainer would tolerate this. It reflects poorly on the entire operation.

eqrider1234
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:37 AM
That would have made me really mad, that is terrible that you had to go through that. Our grooms would NEVER behave like that, it just would not be tolerated. I wonder what BNT it was, i'm in florida and very curious as to what barn has grooms like that.

Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:38 AM
For clarification, the BNT himself was not there, his daughter and several other trainers from his barn were. A complaint was made by someone else to one of his trainers who was sitting there witnessing the behavior. If the trainer said anything to the grooms, nothing changed.

eqrider1234 - sending pm


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www.chadalefarms.com

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:42 AM
You need to bring this to the attention of the grooms' immediate supervisor-the trainer under whom they were working.

This behavior is simply not tolerated BUT the employer needs to know about it.

Admit I am a little surprised, almost never see this type thing. Certainly a small minority of grooms stupid enough to act this way-and they get their butts fired pronto if they are caught doing it.

No way the head BNT trainer who sent this string out who well knows how many young girls and ladies make up the core client base can afford this type conduct from his/her road team.

Zu Zu
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:46 AM
Simply unacceptable!!! regardless if BNT was present or his staff traniners -- BNT needs to be informed of behavior and that his assistant trainers were made aware of this and it continued to be a problem.. I would also inform steward and or the officer/ security or police on the premises. This type of behavior can easily escalate if not stopped NOW!!! This is NOT a small incident nor be taken lightly.IMHO

rileyt
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:50 AM
Sounds like the entire operation (grooms, trainers, and clients) is an appalling piece of work.

My advice: don't walk by them, keep your daughter away from them, and ignore them. Then make a mental note of the barn and resolve never to send any business that way.

Rye
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:51 AM
Identify the name of the BNT, and the wonderful world of the web board will embarrass them.

Seriously, get some gumption and just say who it was. Problem solved.

Huntrs+eq
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:04 PM
Hmmm...I have an educated guess as to which barn this is, seeing as how I've witnessed such behavior myself. It's disgusting, disrespectful, and obnoxious. Sexual harrassment should not be tolerated. Ugh.

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:27 PM
Hmmm...I have an educated guess as to which barn this is, seeing as how I've witnessed such behavior myself. It's disgusting, disrespectful, and obnoxious. Sexual harrassment should not be tolerated. Ugh.

So just exactly how big a name is this "very big name" BNT? Often say there are only about 25 or so that really deserve the title. So are we talking HOTY(national, not zone), WEF circuit champion, Indoor Champion, Medal winners (National)? Or a kinda sorta regional BNT whose name would not be familiar to all?

Really, have been around many of the above defined genuine BNT barns and they'd not tolerate this. It's a business killer that could lead to lawsuits and drive parents of the very girls that buy the horses and go show them right out the gate.

Midge
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:36 PM
[edit] would be the biggest Florida trainer there, except I thought I saw him? He is very supportive of the NCHJA show. I am drawing a blank on other Florida trainers there although I am sure there were some.

gasrgoose
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:44 PM
I'm amazed that they would have clients. My daughter and her 3 ponies would find a new barn and trainer before we would tolerate grooms that behave like that.

Sorry you had to put up with it. If it happened to my daughter or one of the girls from our barn, the grooms would be having a face to face with me.:mad:

Funny thing is, we have great grooms and the other barns our girls hang with have great grooms. They are usually all foot jumping together at the end of the day. So funny, to see little girls jumping higher than the grooms.:lol:

Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:46 PM
Midge you hit the nail on the head. I did not know he was there himself.

Show was last week so it's over with now. It's just the first time we have EVER encountered behavior like that.


________________
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War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:48 PM
With all the I.D. speculation we're getting rather far from the original question, which I do find interesting: Assuming the trainer is unresponsive, what should be the next step?

I guess what I would do would be have a word with show management next, and if THAT failed and I were mad enough, I'd probably flat-out call the police.

Giddy-up
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:48 PM
I have seen the behavior the OP is referring to. :no: Certain grooms from barns at horse shows I steer clear of. I don't appreciate the lewd comments (I do understand enough Spanish) or leering stares, especially if it's later in the day & they break out the cervezas. I am not a teen by any means & it makes me uncomfortable although I notice it's not happening as much as I age.

The only advice I can give is to steer clear & you can try speaking with the barn trainer (although as the OP saw nothing changed & if anything I would worry about becoming more of a target). Another step would be a chat with the show management & a request to never be stabled by that barn again.

Huntrs+eq
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:48 PM
[edit] would be the biggest Florida trainer there, except I thought I saw him? He is very supportive of the NCHJA show. I am drawing a blank on other Florida trainers there although I am sure there were some.

Does he qualify as BNT in your book, findeight? I'm not in NC, but that's who I assumed it was.

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:49 PM
[edit] would be the biggest Florida trainer there, except I thought I saw him? He is very supportive of the NCHJA show. I am drawing a blank on other Florida trainers there although I am sure there were some.


Cannot imagine he would tolerate this crap or his clients would stay if they had to subject their daughters to that kind of environment, not judging by what I have seen over the years. But, yeah, he would be one of the BNTs on my list.

Honestly, been stabled across from him or visited his barn looking for sale horses with friends at shows and never saw anything like this. Of course he was there.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:53 PM
Does it really matter exactly who the trainer was? The behavior as described was unacceptable from anyone, famous or not.

If I could ignore the behavior, I would.

If I couldn't ignore it, I would go complain to the barn manager and most senior of the barn's trainers present.

If that didn't help, I would complain to the show manager, and explain that I would not be able to attend his/her shows in the future if this behavior is tolerated.

I would also track down the head trainer and let him know what happened when his back was turned, and how badly it reflected on him and his entire operation.

Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:57 PM
So I take by your post Hunters + Eq. that you have seen this behavior by his barn before? I was hoping it was an isolated event. So sad. My opinion of him took a nose dive and I don't even know him.

We were generally disappointed this year anyway with the way the Annual was run, schedule, disorganization at rings, mayhem in the warm-up ring with all the trainers giving kids in chaps lessons while competitors trying to warm up for jumpers, the disappointing derby, no grand prix, no NCHJA t-shirts, having to pay for parties, the jumpers all in ring 3 even for the classics, etc. I could go on. This was just one more thing on the list.

All I know is if the schedule is the same next year and the same show company running it, we will not be giong.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

kookicat
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:57 PM
Honestly, I would likely tell the show management the first time, and tell them that if it happened again, I would be phoning the police.

I wouldn't ignore it- how long before the behaviour escalates into something more serious? I wouldn't want to be alone with such a group on a quiet afternoon/night.

MIKES MCS
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:59 PM
personally if you know for a fact that this was a road crew for a BNT. I would write a REAL letter not an email.. stating who you are and what you witnessed and the fact that you were stabled next to them and were subjected to their very insulting comments for the duration of the show making it a VERY unpleasant experience for you . You can make him / her aware of the situation.. and then it's up to them whether they want to address it or not.. BUT I would highly doubt that they would approve of their 2nd trainers not being able to handle the situation. I would also mark the letter personal for the named person only to open .. If you don’t hear anything back you can either assume they don’t care or they didn’t see the letter , Include an email address where they can email back a response so that you know they were made aware of the situation and that someone under them didn’t dispose of your correspondence without their knowledge.
Of course if his staff is this unproffesional in public , he may have more problems then he knows about ..

Huntrs+eq
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:11 PM
Yep. At a show a while back, same shouting, leering, whistling, etc. (And lots of horses=lots of grooms!) I haven't shown in a while, so I have no idea how often it happens. Surely, they're just having "innocent fun" but, really, it's not cool.

To be honest, I don't think he would care. I just ignored it and walked elsewhere.

Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:13 PM
Our trainer was actually headed to complain to the show office on the 2nd day of it and some of our girls showing talked her out of it. Reasoning is they did not want drama and were afraid it would get worse, they also did not see the management doing anything about it anyway because this BNT had more horses there than anyone. Then they had to stop my 17 yr. old from heading down there because they were literally afraid of retribution. Ironically I never saw any parents of the teen clients for that barn and those teens got tired of it too because we constantly heard them yelling at the grooms to shut up. I guess some people will put up with anything just to train with that BNT. Luckily there were probably 8 - 10 empty stalls between us. Like I said, disappointing show in schedule and management. But good in judging and everyone at our barn had a great time actually showing.

I guess the question is who is the best person to report something like this to? Management? Steward? BNT?
In hindsight I should have done something but you don't want to come off as a complainer and I like to pick my battles.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

rugbygirl
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:14 PM
I'd probably flat-out call the police.

For what? No one was being injured. Crimes were not committed. I doubt you'd get very far with the police, to be perfectly honest. If they had been exposing themselves or had TOUCHED a girl, sure. Catcalls and whistling? The police here wouldn't even show up.

phoenix mom
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:15 PM
Call immigration, chances are they will be leaving the country and the show world will be better off. We had only one experience at a show and our trainer went right over and scared the s..t out of the grooms with talk of deportation. They kept their heads down the rest of the show. The trainer is responsible for conduct of his team and the buck stops there. Let him know.

MrWinston
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:18 PM
I think [the trainer] would care, because it's just plain bad business!

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:21 PM
Most of the grooms working for any BNTs are legal. They can't risk losing one, or all of them, mid show and having to scramble. Most are pretty careful.

If it is this particular BNT, I still can't imagine he knows about it. Nobody can afford to alienate potential clientele or buyers of horses offered well into the 6 figures, simply not good marketing or the treatment those with that kind of disgressionary income expect.

Moocow
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:35 PM
I am actually really surprised that so many people are saying they've never witnessed this type of thing happening! I've only done a couple shows in the states (WEF and Kentucky) and at both I was barked at and had (what I can only guess was) inappropriate things yelled at me. I'm a groom as well but I could not believe that the trainers and riders would put up with it. I felt so degraded and angry it was unbelievable. Talk about making hard, long, frustrating days at work even worse with the cat calls and whatnot added on top.
:no:

Ghazzu
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:41 PM
I'd have gone to the steward and let them handle it.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:44 PM
Most of the grooms working for any BNTs are legal.

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read on here in a long time. :lol:

That being said, it's true nobody wants their staff to disappear at a horse show. It's very hard to get horses to the ring without help. So you could try the Miss Manners approach:

"Are you aware your grooms are causing a problem? You may want to take care of it before somebody calls INS.";)

Go Fish
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:48 PM
Most of the grooms working for any BNTs are legal. They can't risk losing one, or all of them, mid show and having to scramble. Most are pretty careful.

No offense, but that's funny! Come out to the West coast :D

In the Air
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:55 PM
Wesie Robb was one of the stewards I believe. If anyone had said anything to her about that sort of behavior I do not think it would have continued :lol::lol:.

Can someone tell [whose group it was]? If it was I shall makes some calls, but I would like to know for sure before I start. I thought they were at Culpepper last week.

My student won the NCHJA medal class (small brag) on a borrowed pony. I am so proud, :D but I sent her up with another trainer as I could not get away. I would not have tolerated that type of behavior anywhere I have students (or myself).

Go Fish
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:58 PM
I'm almost 5'11" with a big mouth. I'd be all over them AND the trainers like a bad smell. If that didn't work, I'd let my 6'4", 200 lb. DH who works out and speaks Spanish have at them.

But more seriously, I'd be in the show office immediately. If the situation didn't improve, I'd ask the show office to move them to the back 40. No one should have to put up with kinda crap, anywhere.

I might be tempted to call the INS in this situation, too. And, if they are harassing minors with sexual inuendo, the police just might be interested.

firstimpressioncounts
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:59 PM
For what? No one was being injured. Crimes were not committed. I doubt you'd get very far with the police, to be perfectly honest. If they had been exposing themselves or had TOUCHED a girl, sure. Catcalls and whistling? The police here wouldn't even show up.

Verbal Sexual Harassment IS a crime....

not sure how that works in the states but if I was constantly going through this day in and out- I would have called the police and left them a statement. They may not rush out within 10 mins but they will come if there's no emergencies.

The only reason why its constantly going on AND it will never change because that one person or persons don't stand up for themselves and speak up. Shame on the trainers/bosses/clients for turning a blind eye.

Mind you, it would have to take a very strong and brave individual to speak up, espically if its a BNT that everyone respects and admires.... because you may feel unwelcomed after that.



Its not the criminal code but it'll have to do and it will vary from state to state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment


The victim does not have to be the person directly harassed but can be anyone who finds the behavior offensive and is affected by it.


Anyways, if you don't want the police involved, and the steward of the show doesn't do anything- go up another level, there has to be some short of upper level show management which while may not be their job to handle things like that but bad publicity at a horse show tends to be frowned upon, esp. when there's sponsors...

J. Turner
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:59 PM
You could get someone who knows Spanish to threaten to call immigration. That might shut them up.

Voy a llamar a inmigración si no se calla. Tengo el numero aqui. Voy a poner en altavoz?

Translation:
I'm going to call immigration if you don't shut up. I have the number right here. Shall I put it on speakerphone?

gasrgoose
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:01 PM
I would ask your trainer to file the complaint with the show management and then have your trainer forward a copy of the complaint to the BNT. The show management needs all the trainers to make the show successful. I would just state the facts and leave emotion out of it. Then let the show management and the BNT work it out.

I also think posting on here is likely to get the attention of the BNT. As of now 1094 people have read this thread, so somebody will notice. Most people wouldn't want 1100 people discussing their barn this way.

As a dad of a young girl showing thanks for bringing this up.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:03 PM
I'd have gone to the steward and let them handle it.

The steward at a USEF show is there to make sure USEF rules are followed. If there is a USEF rule that would apply here, I'm not aware of it.

The show manager, on the other hand, has a financial interest in making sure everybody is happy and will come back for another show. If the show manager gets enough complaints about one barn, they might at least end up in a separate tent, far away from everybody else.

War Admiral
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:05 PM
For what? No one was being injured. Crimes were not committed. I doubt you'd get very far with the police, to be perfectly honest. If they had been exposing themselves or had TOUCHED a girl, sure. Catcalls and whistling? The police here wouldn't even show up.

Heh. In this particular state, we have a state law for "disturbing the peace" as well as an even more useful little catch-all state law for "public intoxication". Covers a lot of ground. :winkgrin:

Ponymom4
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
In The Air, you're correct on the name of the trainer. I would certainy be willing to talk with anyone about it. I really regret not doing it last week, I just didn't want to cause any drama or make things uncomfortable for the ones from my barn. Besides the things that I listed earlier, the kids were having a great show.

I didn't get to see any of the Medal's rounds but I know my daughter saw some of them. Congrats to you & your student.

Personally I'm pretty familiar with the criminal laws in this state having been an ex-asst. district attorney. For it to rise to criminal conduct you would need to know what was being said. I don't know spanish. My daughter knows some. She could pick out a few words only (have a feeling those words aren't part of spanish class). They were not drunk. They were loud sometimes but not to the level of disturbing the peace (it's actually called "disorderly conduct"). What they were is rude, obnoxious, crude, and presenting a very unprofessional demeanor that reflects on the entire operation. Even if my daughter got a chance now she would never train at that BNT's barn because she would not subject herself to that treatment. Daughter is alot like the stallion she loves, a real temperamental spitfire, and she backed down from confrontation so as not to upset her other horseshowing friends.

The whole thing is just sad. What's even sadder is at least one other person on here knew already who the barn was.

But I will make a promise if it EVER happens again, I will go to management, steward, trainer etc.
I'm also writing down that spanish line about INS to keep in the tack trunks.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

BAC
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:22 PM
In The Air, you're correct on the name of the trainer. I would certainy be willing to talk with anyone about it. I really regret not doing it last week, I just didn't want to cause any drama or make things uncomfortable for the ones from my barn. Besides the things that I listed earlier, the kids were having a great show.

Its not too late to write a letter to the show management, naming the BNT whose grooms were causing the problem (and maybe a cc to the BNT also), detailing the behavior and letting them know that you won't be attending any more of their shows if this kind of behavior is allowed to continue. And I second the suggestion to call Immigration.

And to whoever said most grooms of BNTs are legal? You're joking, right? :lol: :D :lol:

jumpingmaya
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:27 PM
Its not too late to write a letter to the show management, naming the BNT whose grooms were causing the problem (and maybe a cc to the BNT also), detailing the behavior and letting them know that you won't be attending any more of their shows if this kind of behavior is allowed to continue. And I second the suggestion to call Immigration.

And to whoever said most grooms of BNTs are legal? You're joking, right? :lol: :D :lol:

I agree with it not being too late to write the letter! I've complained before (and I'm in Florida) so maybe we are just really lucky to be surounded with great professional attitudes!! ;)
On the other hand, I definitely don't think that most grooms of BNTs (or not) are legal... actually I'm pretty sure I've rarely met a legal one...
However, I have met SUPER NICE grooms... that did a wonderful job and that I made sure to tip super well by the end of the weekend...
Just like everywhere else... there are jerks in all aspects of the world! :eek:
Sorry to the OP that you had to deal with them for the week though...:no:

Screebe
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:28 PM
I was there and can confirm the original post. It reminded me of being back in college and avoiding certain fraternities and their benches. It made me uncomfortable enough to choose a different route from barn to ring.

J. Turner
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:33 PM
PonyMom4 - I just used an online translation site! Although I probably could've spouted it off in French. Allota good that seven years of French dun for me. N'eck-squ Pah?

indygirl2560
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:24 PM
That's unacceptable and I can't believe that the BNT put up with it...
At my last show, my trainer hired these awful grooms who just sat around, ignored people asking them to tack up their horse, made rude comments(in Spanish), put on the wrong tack incorrectly, etc.! They were horrible and several people, including myself, my friend's dad, and another parent had to talk to them(in Spanish) about their behavior and how it wasn't going to be tolerated. Needless to say, they were fired at the end of the show.
I've also noticed that once it gets past 9/10 at night, the show grounds turn into a drunken groom fiesta! With ay, ay,ays across the grounds, tequila shots, questionable golf cart driving, etc.

J. Turner
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:28 PM
That's unacceptable and I can't believe that the BNT put up with it...
At my last show, my trainer hired these awful grooms who just sat around, ignored people asking them to tack up their horse, made rude comments(in Spanish), put on the wrong tack incorrectly, etc.! They were horrible and several people, including myself, my friend's dad, and another parent had to talk to them(in Spanish) about their behavior and how it wasn't going to be tolerated. Needless to say, they were fired at the end of the show.
I've also noticed that once it gets past 9/10 at night, the show grounds turn into a drunken groom fiesta! With ay, ay,ays across the grounds, tequila shots, questionable golf cart driving, etc.

... and poor caddying. (Sorry I couldn't resist. It started to sound like Brian Doyle Murray in Caddyshack!)

Androcles
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:30 PM
Ohhhh! , how very awful for you! (where's the back of the hand on the forehead icon)? :rolleyes:


This past weekend we did the NCHJA Annual Benefit AA Show in Raleigh. Unfortunately we were stabled down the barn from a VERY BNT from Florida. Several of this BNT's trainer's were there and alot of grooms. Every day throughout the day we had to listen to constant yelling in spanish from the grooms, barking at women walking by (yes, barking & no I wasn't barked at)), constant catcalls, especially when an attractive teen walked by, and generally loud behavior. My daughter knows some spanish and said the grooms were making very explicit passes and remarks about body parts. We heard their clients yell at them several times in spanish to shut up but they never did. We know of at least one mom stabled across who went down to complain when there were trainers seated there witnessing and hearing everything, yet nothing was done about it. We considered complaining to the steward but since it wasn't involving a ring or class or competitor we were not quite sure what to do. I have been going to shows for many years and have never witnessed such behavior before. We don't think the grooms spoke english since the clients yelled at them to shut up in spanish.

Anyone have any suggestions? With all the increased awareness in professionalism you would hope that would carry over to employees as well. If the grooms behaved that badly at shows and were not called down, I can only imagine what it would be like to be in their barn. I realize a BNT is a BNT, but that would have been enough for me.

________________
www.chadalefarms.com

indygirl2560
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:33 PM
... and poor caddying. (Sorry I couldn't resist. It started to sound like Brian Doyle Murray in Caddyshack!)
Who's that?:confused:

Ghazzu
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:38 PM
The steward at a USEF show is there to make sure USEF rules are followed. If there is a USEF rule that would apply here, I'm not aware of it.

The show manager, on the other hand, has a financial interest in making sure everybody is happy and will come back for another show. If the show manager gets enough complaints about one barn, they might at least end up in a separate tent, far away from everybody else.

My feeling was that, should the steward not want to deal with it, that the steward would kick it to the appropriate show official.

Besides, I think one could stretch "unsportsmanlike conduct" to cover this.

I do know stewards who would be likely to say something to the offenders, even if it were "unofficial".

Silk
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:38 PM
To be honest, I don't think he would care. I just ignored it and walked elsewhere.

I agree. I never really cinsidered him a class act. His place is a mess and yes he turns out winners, but at what cost?

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:44 PM
Methinks if news of this trickles up to head trainer, whoever was running that road crew is going to hear about it.

And, ya know, not everybody knowingly hires illegals. Just because popular belief is that they all are, most are are here legally and the majority of barns check papers before hiring. Once you get away from the border states, not everybody winks at it like they used to...some counties around here are downright hostile to employers who use them...not worth it.

Sebastian
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:58 PM
But I will make a promise if it EVER happens again, I will go to management, steward, trainer etc.
I'm also writing down that spanish line about INS to keep in the tack trunks.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com (http://www.chadalefarms.com)


I'm glad to hear you say this. I know it can be difficult in the "heat of the moment", but this was a missed opportunity. It's so sad to me that the old "don't make waves" mentality is still being instilled in young women today. This would have been a wonderful opportunity to show them that they CAN and SHOULD stand up for themselves in the face of this behavior.

Seb :)

BAC
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:08 PM
You're right Seb, I think it set a poor example for ponymom's daughter by not doing anything about it.

"A"HunterGal
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:24 PM
Ok people, HOLD THE PHONE.

I have worked for [this trainer], and I know these guys. They are NOT bad guys. And yes, they ARE all legal. The girls who show there also love them, and when I worked there, they helped, pitched in, and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.

Yes, they are loud. THAT I do know. But I think that if you had a problem at the time, someone should have walked up to [the trainers] and talked to them AT THE TIME, instead of all of this post-event ranting. It's too late now. In the future, if you're stabled by them and are offended, DO something about it! I sort of feel like people have the chance to rant about a BNT and are taking advantage of it. Please. Step up to the plate next time.

Sebastian
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:30 PM
Ok people, HOLD THE PHONE.

I have worked for[this trainer], and I know these guys. They are NOT bad guys. And yes, they ARE all legal. The girls who show there also love them, and when I worked there, they helped, pitched in, and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.

Yes, they are loud. THAT I do know. But I think that if you had a problem at the time, someone should have walked up to [the trainers] and talked to them AT THE TIME, instead of all of this post-event ranting. It's too late now. In the future, if you're stabled by them and are offended, DO something about it! I sort of feel like people have the chance to rant about a BNT and are taking advantage of it. Please. Step up to the plate next time.

No... YOU miss the point. I don't disagree that the behavior should have been complained about directly. BUT, NO ONE should be subjected to that kind of behavior in the first place. And, tolerating it (regardless of whether you are a BNT or not) is a TERRIBLE way to do business.

When I rode with BNTs, ANY groom acting like that would have been fired on the spot. If DS doesn't want people to talk about it? Don't hire it and put it out there for everyone to see...

Seb :)

Arizona DQ
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:40 PM
Call immigration, chances are they will be leaving the country and the show world will be better off. We had only one experience at a show and our trainer went right over and scared the s..t out of the grooms with talk of deportation. They kept their heads down the rest of the show. The trainer is responsible for conduct of his team and the buck stops there. Let him know.

THANK YOU!!!! That will probably do more than anything else to shut them up!!! Buy a couple of Border Patrol Caps! :mad:

Queen Latisha
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:49 PM
I would have gone to the show management, pronto.
Women should not have to tolerate sexual harassment!
Good thing I wasn't there, the grooms would be speaking a few octaves higher.:D

"A"HunterGal
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:50 PM
THANK YOU!!!! That will probably do more than anything else to shut them up!!! Buy a couple of Border Patrol Caps! :mad:

Ummm...am I the only one horrified by this attitude? We are willing to accept illegal immigrants to do our dirty horse work as long as we scare them into submission by threatening deportation? How about talking to them, or talking to their bosses, instead of treating them like subhumans who are only tolerated because we need them around?

I don't condone sexist behavior, and I know that this is an issue when working with/around many grooms. But I also don't condone blackmailing people into change.

Talk to their boss. Don't call immigration.

gasrgoose
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:50 PM
Ok people, HOLD THE PHONE.

I have worked for [this trainer], and I know these guys. They are NOT bad guys. And yes, they ARE all legal. The girls who show there also love them, and when I worked there, they helped, pitched in, and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.

Yes, they are loud. THAT I do know. But I think that if you had a problem at the time, someone should have walked up to [the trainers] and talked to them AT THE TIME, instead of all of this post-event ranting. It's too late now. In the future, if you're stabled by them and are offended, DO something about it! I sort of feel like people have the chance to rant about a BNT and are taking advantage of it. Please. Step up to the plate next time.

The OP stated another mom did go and talk with the barn and nothing was done.

WorthTheWait95
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:51 PM
Ok people, HOLD THE PHONE.

I have worked for [this trainer], and I know these guys. They are NOT bad guys. And yes, they ARE all legal. The girls who show there also love them, and when I worked there, they helped, pitched in, and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.

Yes, they are loud. THAT I do know. But I think that if you had a problem at the time, someone should have walked up to [the trainers] and talked to them AT THE TIME, instead of all of this post-event ranting. It's too late now. In the future, if you're stabled by them and are offended, DO something about it! I sort of feel like people have the chance to rant about a BNT and are taking advantage of it. Please. Step up to the plate next time.

Is this a joke? You def missed the point. You can't seriously think this behavior is ever okay. I've ridden with several MNT. Much bigger then DS and I've only ever seen one of their grooms behave in that manner. He was employed for an entire 20 minutes before BNT sent him packing. It is unacceptable and should never be tolerated end of story. The grooms that work for them (both illegal and legal) were nice, respectful people.

ThatScaryChick
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:59 PM
Ok people, HOLD THE PHONE.

I have worked for [this trainer], and I know these guys. They are NOT bad guys. And yes, they ARE all legal. The girls who show there also love them, and when I worked there, they helped, pitched in, and I didn't feel uncomfortable at all.

Yes, they are loud. THAT I do know. But I think that if you had a problem at the time, someone should have walked up to [the trainers] and talked to them AT THE TIME, instead of all of this post-event ranting. It's too late now. In the future, if you're stabled by them and are offended, DO something about it! I sort of feel like people have the chance to rant about a BNT and are taking advantage of it. Please. Step up to the plate next time.

You're kidding right? This behavior was uncalled for and excuses should never be made for it. Just because you happen to ride for the "BNT" doesn't mean that what these grooms did was ok. They definitely don't sound like great guys. Great guys don't harass and cat-call and use derogatory words towards people when they walk by. You may like it, but many people don't. And if you had read other posts, you would see that some people did try to talk to someone and the behavior continued.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:05 PM
I don't think it matters if the grooms in question are legal or not, or if the trainer is famous or not. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and should be addressed, first to the trainer, then to the show manager if necessary.

I've worked with many guys over the years. Good guys are polite and treat everybody with respect. Guys who are rude and make people so uncomfortable that they avoid passing that tent and are nervous about doing night check- guess what? Those are NOT good guys. No matter where they were born.

Beenthere
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:40 PM
I would have gone right up to the trainers and dealt with it on the spot. Don has received an email that this is happening so hopefully he will answer it and get on here or have someone on his behalf get on her and let everyone know he has this handled.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:50 PM
I do think it's funny how some people think identifying legal vs. illegal immigrants is like picking out the difference between blue and green.

Plumcreek
Jun. 30, 2009, 06:13 PM
I'll bet, in the end, this rant/discussion will be Much more effective in instigating permanent change then going to show management would have been.

SpicyMonarch
Jun. 30, 2009, 06:26 PM
If you really want to freak them out and get the point across, refer to immigration as "la migra". It'll scare the living snot out of them because it makes you sound pretty legit. ;) It's the slang name that Hispanics use for INS.

Tex Mex
Jun. 30, 2009, 06:28 PM
Can't help but feel like there is possibly a little bit of exaggeration going on here? I was not there, but I attend AA rated horse shows just about every single week and I have never, ever heard any groom make blatant sexual comments or harass girls in this way. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it can't be happening all the time. Also, the title of the thread makes it sound like it's ALL grooms at ALL the shows, but then her post only talks about one weekend. And those teenagers really understand full-on sexual comments in spanish?? Hmmmm....maybe their parents should be concerned about that.

And what about the fact that most of these guys are getting tipped at the end of the week by these girls and their parents? They are really sexually harassing them and then expecting a tip? I think most of these guys are more concerned about making some decent money and wouldn't risk that by being a-holes.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 06:42 PM
Can't help but feel like there is possibly a little bit of exaggeration going on here? I was not there, but I attend AA rated horse shows just about every single week and I have never, ever heard any groom make blatant sexual comments or harass girls in this way. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it can't be happening all the time.

You may not have seen this, but it does happen sometimes, and when it does, it can really cast a shadow over your day. The fact that several others have confirmed the OP's account makes me believe it.

Trust me, it's not necessary to be fluent in a language to get the gist of it when a group of guys are making rude comments.

It's unacceptable behavior. Period.

J. Turner
Jun. 30, 2009, 06:59 PM
Who's that?:confused:
He played the head caddy. It's the scene where he's lecturing the caddies for their poor work on the job - getting drunk, "smoking grass" - then after a hesitation as if it weren't that important - "poor caddying." I guess you had to be there.

Beenthere
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:09 PM
Oh please, spanish male grooms do this ALL the time at shows and during night events like grand prixs, but the key is spanish men do this away from the horse shows too. They (that do this, not all Spanish men) are scum, perverted and like to get a rise out of people. Darren Graziano's grooms pulled this crap at WEF this year and they did not know we spoke fluent Spanish. I recorded what they said and the actions they immitated like spanking someone's butt and told them I would go find Darren and have a word with him. They said pretty nasty things towards girls under 16. After that they were very nice, kept their mouths shut and turned their radio down (which ps they played at the highest level and no one else seemed to care). But I could see being worried about saying something because what is something mysteriously happens to your horse in the evening.

I trust Don will get to the bottom of this.

J. Turner
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:11 PM
Can't help but feel like there is possibly a little bit of exaggeration going on here? I was not there, but I attend AA rated horse shows just about every single week and I have never, ever heard any groom make blatant sexual comments or harass girls in this way. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it can't be happening all the time. Also, the title of the thread makes it sound like it's ALL grooms at ALL the shows, but then her post only talks about one weekend. And those teenagers really understand full-on sexual comments in spanish?? Hmmmm....maybe their parents should be concerned about that.

And what about the fact that most of these guys are getting tipped at the end of the week by these girls and their parents? They are really sexually harassing them and then expecting a tip? I think most of these guys are more concerned about making some decent money and wouldn't risk that by being a-holes.

Most of the Latino grooms I've known are great guys, very respectable, and nice. Despite my poor Spanish I try to communicate as much as I can and try to learn more. I certainly don't try to put them down. On the other hand, I have worked in restaurants and been on house building sites and been ogled at (not lately). As for knowing insults as a teenager, I remember finding out the swear words in French in high school. And exchange students do help the process. So does the internet. So do DVD subtitles.

Saying that these guys wouldn't do this because they wouldn't get tipped is like saying trainers wouldn't abuse a racehorse or greyhound because it wouldn't run for them if abused. Well, the logic doesn't work. It happens. Like evolution. Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps they felt safer harassing girls from other barns because obviously there is no immediate consequence.

The reason I put the threatening translation up there is because perhaps if nothing else worked (and this mother obviously did try a few thing), a pointed phrase will get through to them. Do I believe all were illegal? No, not necessarily. But from my DH working in management at 5-star restaurants/resorts, I can tell you that most of the kitchen workers and golf course/landscape workers were illegal. The resort has some sort of disclaimer that they are not responsible for the legitimacy of the paperwork. Firsthand, he knew that the green cards weren't real (or whatever other paperwork). I also have personally known enough folks from Latin America that weren't here legally. Do I care? Not really. As long as they aren't felons or aren't committing felonys (beyond being here and sending money home to their families).

Treasmare2
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:28 PM
Tell the BNT that if they do not address the issue you will make a sexual harassment charge against the stable. No one needs to be exposed to such behaviour whether they are addressed directly by the grooms or in the area that exposes them. Not acceptable under any conditions.

Cita
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:42 PM
Just because someone is speaking Spanish doesn't mean that person is an illegal immigrant... you have no concrete reason to doubt their citizenship. Threatening a Hispanic person with "calling la migra," just because you're angry, is extremely insulting. If you're going to threaten, why not threaten them with being fired? Or with being kicked off the show grounds?

Yes, the behavior was unacceptable. Yes, it is prevalent, especially in many Latino cultures. But "la migra"? Seriously? :no:

HJPony
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:54 PM
I, too, think it's quite demeaning that many of you feel that EVERY groom is an illegal immigrant.
I understand that sexual harassment should not be tolerated by anyone from anywhere.. however to threaten them with deportation is ridiculous at any level. Most of these men and women work diligently to make your horse look it's best. It's sickening to think how close minded people are.


To the original poster: No, I don't think it is right what the grooms were doing at the show grounds.. Although I think it would have been a smarter idea to go directly to the trainer in charge and address the situation than posting about it later. The horse world is small, making a trainer look unprofessional on a public forum was not a good idea.

SpicyMonarch
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:01 PM
Just because someone is speaking Spanish doesn't mean that person is an illegal immigrant... you have no concrete reason to doubt their citizenship. Threatening a Hispanic person with "calling la migra," just because you're angry, is extremely insulting. If you're going to threaten, why not threaten them with being fired? Or with being kicked off the show grounds?

Yes, the behavior was unacceptable. Yes, it is prevalent, especially in many Latino cultures. But "la migra"? Seriously? :no:

Sometimes you have to play the upper hand to make something sink in. And seriously, "no concrete reasoning to doubt their citizenship"? Wow. I can't think of more than five Latino grooms I've met during my lifetime that were legal. And the legal ones are usually from Nicaragua or Costa Rica, and other Central American countries. Not Mexico.

Tegan301
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:05 PM
Ummm...am I the only one horrified by this attitude? We are willing to accept illegal immigrants to do our dirty horse work as long as we scare them into submission by threatening deportation? How about talking to them, or talking to their bosses, instead of treating them like subhumans who are only tolerated because we need them around?

I don't condone sexist behavior, and I know that this is an issue when working with/around many grooms. But I also don't condone blackmailing people into change.

Talk to their boss. Don't call immigration.

I agree with you "A"HunterGal. I am horrified by the grooms' behavior, but am also becoming increasingly uncomfortable with some of the sweeping generalizations re: latinos that are being made here.

Spotted Pony
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:08 PM
The horse world is small, making a trainer look unprofessional on a public forum was not a good idea.


... and this one in particular.

MintHillFarm
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE=findeight;4199332]Most of the grooms working for any BNTs are legal. They can't risk losing one, or all of them, mid show and having to scramble. Most are pretty careful.

I am not sure about that one! However, I would have certainly spoken to the Trainer and made it known that the grooms were extremely inappropriate.

meupatdoes
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:12 PM
If you really want to freak them out and get the point across, refer to immigration as "la migra". It'll scare the living snot out of them because it makes you sound pretty legit. ;) It's the slang name that Hispanics use for INS.

ARE YOU SERIOUS??!

Then, when a person who appears to be Jewish insults you, because maybe they have a big nose (which ridiculous logic fail I cite to show the ridiculousness of "brown" + "spanish speaking" = "illegal") you can just tell them that Israel is the homeland and maybe they should go there??!

Wink wink, that'll really send those wetbacks scrambling??!

I really and truly fail to understand why people seem to understand that racist comments like this are completely unacceptable for some groups (could you imagine posting a suggestion to threaten a black person with "I'll send you back to Africa"??!) but feel free to let fly at the hardworking people of latin american descent who take care of our horses. When you expand from outright racist treatment to generally dismissive and disrepectful treatment the numbers go up even more.

Totally unacceptable, and yet it is so pervasive that it appears on bulletin boards like this without a second thought.

:no:

Ghazzu
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:22 PM
I, too, think it's quite demeaning that many of you feel that EVERY groom is an illegal immigrant.
I understand that sexual harassment should not be tolerated by anyone from anywhere.. however to threaten them with deportation is ridiculous at any level. Most of these men and women work diligently to make your horse look it's best. It's sickening to think how close minded people are.


I agree that the immigartion status of the people involved is entirely irrelevant.
It is still unacceptable behavior.



To the original poster: No, I don't think it is right what the grooms were doing at the show grounds.. Although I think it would have been a smarter idea to go directly to the trainer in charge and address the situation than posting about it later. The horse world is small, making a trainer look unprofessional on a public forum was not a good idea.

The OP is not making the "trainer look unprofessional". His hired help is.

Renae
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:24 PM
ARE YOU SERIOUS??!

Then, when a person who appears to be Jewish insults you, because maybe they have a big nose (which ridiculous logic fail I cite to show the ridiculousness of "brown" + "spanish speaking" = "illegal") you can just tell them that Israel is the homeland and maybe they should go there??!

Wink wink, that'll really send those wetbacks scrambling??!

I really and truly fail to understand why people seem to understand that racist comments like this are completely unacceptable for some groups (could you imagine posting a suggestion to threaten a black person with "I'll send you back to Africa"??!) but feel free to let fly at the hardworking people of latin american descent who take care of our horses. When you expand from outright racist treatment to generally dismissive and disrepectful treatment the numbers go up even more.

Totally unacceptable, and yet it is so pervasive that it appears on bulletin boards like this without a second thought.

:no:

AGREED. Just where would the horse business be if all of the illegal immigrants that work in it were gone? Some of y'all have no idea.

JanM
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:29 PM
The only reason I find their ethnic origin relevant is because the daughter can understand what they're saying--spanish class does come in handy and not exactly the way you think it will.

However, I don't see what their possible immigration status or ethnic group has to do with this situation-a bunch of men were making disgusting remarks to women, and I don't think this reflects anything but their personal lack of courtesy. And I imagine the fact there were several men doing this they were probably egging each other on, and this needs to be addressed with show management and their employer so other people on the show grounds can show and work in peace. The fact they were apparently doing this to younger women makes it even worse. I have found that I learned to deal with situations like this from experience, and react much more aggressively than I did when I was younger, but I think many younger women might be too embarassed or intimidated to complain about incidents like this.

The ethnic or immigration status is not important to me at all, but the behavior of actiing like a bunch of hooligans and harassing women is disgusting in the extreme. The only thing that I would do is complain to the trainer, and to show management. I can't believe that any decent person would tolerate rude behavior that will drive clients away and reflect badly on their operation.

Trakehner
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:30 PM
ARE YOU SERIOUS??!

Then, when a person who appears to be Jewish insults you, because maybe they have a big nose (which ridiculous logic fail I cite to show the ridiculousness of "brown" + "spanish speaking" = "illegal") you can just tell them that Israel is the homeland and maybe they should go there??!

Wink wink, that'll really send those wetbacks scrambling??!

I really and truly fail to understand why people seem to understand that racist comments like this are completely unacceptable for some groups (could you imagine posting a suggestion to threaten a black person with "I'll send you back to Africa"??!) but feel free to let fly at the hardworking people of latin american descent who take care of our horses. When you expand from outright racist treatment to generally dismissive and disrepectful treatment the numbers go up even more.

Totally unacceptable, and yet it is so pervasive that it appears on bulletin boards like this without a second thought.

:no:

When you hear hoofbeats, don't look for Zebras.

When you hear spanish spoken by a bunch of grooms, you're more apt to run across an illegal.

It's not the young girls job or responsibility to deal with these scum. It's the trainers job or whatever adult is in charge of these sexist thugs.

I've been at shows where BNTs and non-BNTs grooms were badmouthing women and being basic drunken jerks. Several years ago, a bunch of us male riders dragged their trainers out of their show parties to their barns to shut their scum up. We made sure we embarrassed them in front of everyone. We brought the stewards and show secretary along and what show sponsors we could find. The grooms were removed from the grounds and several were arrested for drugs and things they shouldn't have had. Everyone made sure the entire show knew about the trainer and their workers...every chance we got. We let mothers of two of the girls with these trainers know about the types of guys who were around their daughters.

At Laurel Race track years ago I saw a BNT beat the hell out of a mexican groom (yes, he was mexican) for grabbing a young female groom. The scum groom was tossed out the front gate and his room contents were thrown over the fence...no track badge, no job...bye bye.

Zero tolerance for scum bothering the females around the horses or the barn. I've nailed the barn guys for mouthing off about the women where I board...they're my friends and I won't tolerate them insulting my friends (and yes, they're all white barn workers).

Silk
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:31 PM
... and this one in particular.

and why is that, specifically? There is certainly no halo over his head.

Cita
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:34 PM
Sometimes you have to play the upper hand to make something sink in. And seriously, "no concrete reasoning to doubt their citizenship"? Wow. I can't think of more than five Latino grooms I've met during my lifetime that were legal. And the legal ones are usually from Nicaragua or Costa Rica, and other Central American countries. Not Mexico.

So can you tell the difference between an Mexican and a Nicaraguan by sight? By their accent? Or do you sit down and have a real heart-to-heart conversation about their background before you threaten to have them deported? What if a Costa Rican and an Ecuadorian are standing next to a Mexican and making catcalls - do you only threaten to deport the Mexican? :o

The OP makes no mention of either the national backgrounds or immigration statuses of the obnoxious grooms in questions. I'm guessing it is because she had no idea, given as such things aren't typically tattooed on people's foreheads, and unlike many in this thread the OP had the good grace to refrain from making insulting, racist assumptions.

SpicyMonarch
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:45 PM
I actually can tell the difference between a Mexican and a Nicaraguan by accent. It sometimes gets difficult to notice differences when they're from Oaxaca or Chiapas, since they're virtually the same place.

Seriously, I have no issues with Latinos, whether legal or illegal working in the horse industry. I know this industry would come to a screeching halt if they ceased to exist. BUT, I also believe that these individuals should behave properly and appropriately for the situations that they are placed in. It is not acceptable for them to be making sexual comments to 13 year old girls. Period. I realize how hardworking these people are, but they should act in a manner accordingly if they wish to keep their employment.

Parker_Rider
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:51 PM
I've also noticed that once it gets past 9/10 at night, the show grounds turn into a drunken groom fiesta! With ay, ay,ays across the grounds, tequila shots, questionable golf cart driving, etc.

Oh come on, this isn't restricted just to the grooms! have you ever mariachi danced at 11 at night while supplying the tequila? ;) I suggest you try it! It's half the fun! and at horse shows, questionable golf cart driving isn't limited to late night party-goers... ;) I <3 our grooms, haha - except when one gets moody, but that's just how life goes.

However, if I ever got barked at by anyone, man, woman, Latino or white, there would be some major smackdowns taking place. I totally understand why OP hesitated, but man oh man, I would be livid.

Va2Ga
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:56 PM
after reading all this i need another drink!!!

meupatdoes
Jun. 30, 2009, 09:29 PM
After stewing over this thread for an hour on the train ride home, I realized I am not done.

This thread has made me think that maybe I might have to warn one of my friends, who likes the horses and thinks horseshows sound like fun, that he may have to prepare himself before tagging along.

He might have to prepare himself because it appears that some of the posters on this thread would feel no qualms in threatening him with "la migra" if they found any of his behavior unacceptable (maybe he parked to close to their car, maybe they think he looked at them funny, whatever) simply because he is Guatemalan, a native speaker of (Guatemalan accented) Spanish, and might find himself standing there dressed in jeans and a polo shirt holding my horse while I put on my number or whatever.

Were they to saunter up and threaten him with "la migra," they would find themselves talking to a U.S. passport holding, ivy league educated BigLaw attorney with more letters after his name (7) than they could count on one hand.

The point, however, is not that you shouldn't assume all brown skinned spanish speakers at a horse show are illegal because you never know if someone brought their friend from law school along to come watch.

The POINT is that (and this will be a complex sentence so pay attention), if my friend somehow behaved at this horseshow in a manner that you had a problem with, if your treatment of my friend (or anyone else for that matter), as a human being with whose behavior you happened to have a problem, would change based on whether you were dealing with him at a moment in time when you thought he was an illegal immigrant behaving poorly at a horseshow or the moment after you found out he was born in the U S of A and has more degrees from more countries than you can shake a stick at and he also behaves poorly at horseshows, then you have a serious problem.

meupatdoes
Jun. 30, 2009, 09:32 PM
It is not acceptable for them to be making sexual comments to 13 year old girls. Period. I realize how hardworking these people are, but they should act in a manner accordingly if they wish to keep their employment.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you would saunter up to them and threaten them with "la migra".

That is an EMPLOYMENT issue, not an IMMIGRATION one.

Come Shine
Jun. 30, 2009, 09:38 PM
This thread has made me think that maybe I might have to warn one of my friends, who likes the horses and thinks horseshows sound like fun, that he may have to prepare himself before tagging along.

Well, I guess if your friend is going to come to a horse show and behave in the manner that was in the OP, then perhaps it is better that he stay home.

meupatdoes
Jun. 30, 2009, 09:53 PM
Well, I guess if your friend is going to come to a horse show and behave in the manner that was in the OP, then perhaps it is better that he stay home.

Congratulations on entirely missing the point.

It appears that some people here would address any HYPOTHETICAL poor behavior on his part diffrerently based on whether he HYPOTHETICALLY behaved poorly before they found out he was a B.A. J.D. L.L.M. with a U.S. passport or after.

Come on guys.
A Guatemalan (he has that passport too) could understand that hypothetical and not categorically miss the point; feel free to bring up the rear.

indygirl2560
Jun. 30, 2009, 09:57 PM
He played the head caddy. It's the scene where he's lecturing the caddies for their poor work on the job - getting drunk, "smoking grass" - then after a hesitation as if it weren't that important - "poor caddying." I guess you had to be there.
I've never seen the movie either(way before my time!)

Beenthere
Jun. 30, 2009, 10:46 PM
Ponymom4 you have an important pm

"A"HunterGal
Jun. 30, 2009, 10:49 PM
I also want to expand upon my original thoughts. I think that this thread is revealing a general attitude of racism that is prevalent in the horse world, and goes largely excused.

First, I actually think there are more LEGAL immigrants in the horse world than one may think. I've only worked for two larger barns where the grooms were illegal. Second, simply because a man speak Spanish or looks hispanic and works in horses DOES NOT automatically make him illegal. Third, even if he WAS illegal, that does not give one the right to threaten and blackmail to influence behavior. It's demeaning.

Finally, I think that in general grooms are looked down upon as second class in the horse world. Even though they provide a vital service, many times they are referred to as "the boys." As in "the boys will stay late," or "I'll send one of the boys back with the horses that aren't showing." Boys? Really? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive and haven't worked in another industry where this terminology is accepted (maybe construction?), but to me, it implies the belief that because they are hispanic, they are automatically immature, and therefor must be referred to as children, not adults.

Ok, I'm getting off the soapbox now. Sorry to go a little off topic, but it's always bugged me!

HorsesinHaiti
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:00 PM
As someone who manages almost 200 employees and visitors both Haitian and foreign - my first concern with something like this is , 'how do I make it stick with the labor board?' Which usually determines if our discipline sticks or not. Things are better in the US for employers, but not always great in cases like this.

A written complaint to the trainer and/or show manager can be very useful to document their labor action against the grooms and thus make said action more likely to happen. Might be more useful to send it quietly to an honorable trainer directly (by registered mail, if you worry it won't reach them?). Might be necessary in some cases to send it to the show manager who can pass it on if the trainer requests it for documentation of the labor action. At any rate, handing them the tools to deal with the labor board might get somebody moving faster. Especially if the grooms are are legal and inclined to play the race card (I have seen that happen in non-horse settings).

Just another twist - I'm sure the OP with the legal background thought of this already.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:12 PM
The labor board?!? In the horse business???

"A"HunterGal
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:18 PM
The labor board?!? In the horse business???

I think if there WERE a labor board, we would all be out of jobs!! 12 hour workdays? No overtime? Less than minimum wage per hour? OUCH! :)

worth_the_wait08
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:27 PM
but the key is spanish men do this away from the horse shows too. They (that do this, not all Spanish men) are scum, perverted and like to get a rise out of people.

I in no way feel that the grooms were justified in making lewd comments to anyone, but I think it's important to realize that other cultures are very different from ours. One of my good friends is from Panama, and she's helped me learn a lot about how and why Hispanic men often act the way they do. In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women. I may be completely off-base with these observations, and I invite anyone who feels that I am to correct me, but I'm working off of what my friend has shared with me.

I'm merely trying to play the Devil's advocate here. As a young woman, I am in NO WAY condoning lewd sexual comments as referenced by the OP as I believe comments like that have no place in any society. I just wanted to call to attention the fact that some of the behavior exhibited by Hispanic workers (in and outside the horse world) is normal and accepted in their culture.

HorsesinHaiti
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:32 PM
I know, I worked a couple shows in the US before turning into a world traveler...

But seriously, that issue is sometimes the blockage nobody wants to mention that keeps them from action. More often than you'd think. 'Here's documentation for the labor board' can also be a back door way of getting people to realize they are legally exposed to other 'arguments', if you are concerned about saying it more directly.

Or just plain document it for the show manager so THEY have legal coverage for taking action, even moving someone mid - show to another set of stalls. Written documentation of harm/ impending loss of business/ legal exposure for harassment of minors helps the manager invoke the lawyer as they take action to deal with uncooperative people.

Meredith Clark
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:36 PM
Sometimes you have to play the upper hand to make something sink in. And seriously, "no concrete reasoning to doubt their citizenship"? Wow. I can't think of more than five Latino grooms I've met during my lifetime that were legal. And the legal ones are usually from Nicaragua or Costa Rica, and other Central American countries. Not Mexico.

:eek:

I'm also completely shocked by some of the comments made on this board. Do you [SpicyMonarch] ask to see passports or birth cert from every Latino looking groom you've met during your lifetime?

I think it's insulting that people are suggesting threatening to call immigration. If this was a group of white construction workers what would you do then? There has to be better ways to handle that sort of conflict.

If these employees were really as bad as the OP says (which I agree with the poster that questioned how the young girls knew they were being sexually harassed??) why didn't someone just say something to the men? Even if they didn't understand ANY English (which is unlikely) they would have understood a face to face confrontation and a stern voice.

I'm sorry the girls felt objectified, but this shouldn't be a race or ethnicity issue.

MHM
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:37 PM
I just wanted to call to attention the fact that some of the behavior exhibited by Hispanic workers (in and outside the horse world) is normal and accepted in their culture.

That's fine when they go home for a visit, if it doesn't bother those women.

When they're here earning a living, they need to recognize what behavior is not acceptable.

When I say "they," I don't mean Hispanics in particular, but anyone who needs to realize what constitutes correct behavior in a different setting.

Meredith Clark
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:39 PM
In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women. I may be completely off-base with these observations, and I invite anyone who feels that I am to correct me, but I'm working off of what my friend has shared with me.

.

My sister dated a man from El Salvador for many years and he explained it in the same way. He compared it to an American sending a round of drinks over to a table of women. I guess you could say that's sexist, rude, like "what because I'm a woman I can't afford my own drinks? He's just trying to get me drunk to sleep with me" etc.. but in our culture it's a normal thing for a man to buy a woman a drink. Does that make sense?

Plumcreek
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:52 PM
And which compliment to women does "Barking'' translate to?

Mardi
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:52 PM
I guess the question is who is the best person to report something like this to? Management? Steward? BNT?
In hindsight I should have done something but you don't want to come off as a complainer and I like to pick my battles.
www.chadalefarms.com

Heaven forbid you should come off as a complainer, because THAT is so important.
Why are you protecting the grooms, and not the women they harass ????

The order of reporting in a situation as described is first go to the Trainer. Tell him/her once. If no immediate action/change, then go to the Show MANAGER (not secretary) and USEF Steward. Tell one, and then the other.

See USEF General Rule GR702 Violations (1.d.)"Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper,
unethical, dishonest,unsportsmanlike,or intemperate, or prejudical to the best interests of the sport and the Federation."

It's the trainer's responsibility to control his employees while on the showgrounds during
a licensed competition.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:58 PM
See USEF General Rule GR702 Violations (1.d.)"Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper,
unethical, dishonest,unsportsmanlike,or intemperate, or prejudical to the best interests of the sport and the Federation."

It's the trainer's responsibility to control his employees while on the showgrounds during
a licensed competition.

Does this umbrella to employees? It seems as if these rules could be applied only to members of the federation, in which case it would be a moot point.

Mardi
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:01 AM
You could get someone who knows Spanish to threaten to call immigration. That might shut them up.

Voy a llamar a inmigración si no se calla. Tengo el numero aqui. Voy a poner en altavoz?

Translation:
I'm going to call immigration if you don't shut up. I have the number right here. Shall I put it on speakerphone?

Why should you have to find someone who speaks Spanish ? Speak to the grooms in ENGLISH, and make THEM get the translator.

Mardi
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:06 AM
At my last show, my trainer hired these awful grooms who just sat around, ignored people asking them to tack up their horse, made rude comments(in Spanish), put on the wrong tack incorrectly, etc.! They were horrible and several people, including myself, my friend's dad, and another parent had to talk to them(in Spanish) about their behavior and how it wasn't going to be tolerated. Needless to say, they were fired at the end of the show.


So they were fired after they weren't needed anymore ?

That'll teach 'em.

worth_the_wait08
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:21 AM
And which compliment to women does "Barking'' translate to?

Again, I wasn't using my example in reference to the OP's post- I find the behavior of those particular men offensive and out of line. I was responding to an earlier poster's comment that more or less said that Hispanic men are scum when they relate to women in ways that are different from what we're used to here in the states. I was NOT justifying the grooms' behavior.

Creaghgal
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:27 AM
Please let this racist filth be closed soon. Why has it gone on THIS long????

Mardi
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:31 AM
Does this umbrella to employees? It seems as if these rules could be applied only to members of the federation, in which case it would be a moot point.

USEF GR701. General. "The provisions of this rule apply in connection with any Licensed Competition to the following persons: owner, exhibitor, agent, trainer, manager, rider, driver, handler.....a member of the Federation or ANY PERSON who acts in a manner in violation of the rules of the Federation or deemed prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the Federation."

GR701 (1.d.) "Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudcial to the best interests of the sport."

So yes, it does include employees. They do not have to be a USEF member for this rule to apply to them. But really, it comes back to the trainer: he's responsioble for the behavior of his employees while they're on the showgrounds.

hoopoe
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:52 AM
Does this umbrella to employees? It seems as if these rules could be applied only to members of the federation, in which case it would be a moot point


GR104 "Agent" Any adult , including but not limited to any groom, vet, coach ot other persons who act on behalf of an exhibitor, owner or lessee of a horse, trainer, rider, driver or handler at or in connection with a Licensed Competition

they , themselves , do not have to be members

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:26 AM
OK, clearly this post has taken an ethnic/immigration status that it was not originally intended. Anyone can look back over my posting history here at COTH. I do not go on rants, or target things or people and certainly do not go on BNT bashing; and I try to be positive. My original question is what would have been the best way to handle it. Since my original post I have found out from our trainer that there was a discussion at show at an ingate and another trainer confirmed the trainer's of the grooms' barn had been talked to about the grooms' behavior. I have no idea what the trainers did, I only know the behavior did not change and I witnessed it on Sat. and Sun.

I have also found out from my daughter while reading this thread with her about an extremely disturbing comment said directly to her by one of the grooms in question. Daughter is 17 and one of her horses is a stallion. As she was walking her horse back from the wash stall, one of the grooms commented to her nice stallion, I like him in english. She replied thank you, he's my sweetie, (or baby or something else to that effect that she always says). A 2nd groom asked in spanish if she could ride him like her stallion. Daughter responded iin spanish that she understood some spanish and if he did not shut up she would tell. Then she told the 1st groom his friend was loco and walked off. To the 1st groom's credit daughter said he looked horrified at the 2nd one's statement. She did not personally get bothered again but could still hear remarks made to other girls passing by. To me, just by the fact she personally did not get verbally harassed again tells me the grooms knew their conduct was not acceptable. However, it did not stop them from continuing.

I REALLY WISH I had known about this during the show. I am contacting the trainer tomorrow to discuss it. Daughter said she did not tell my husband or me at the show about that specific comment because we would have gone ballistic, and the boarders were having a good show otherwise and did not want drama. She only mentioned it to her friends at the show.

I personally have NO idea whether the grooms were legal vs. illegal or from what country they were from, NOR DO I CARE!!! I only know that the comments made to people were in spanish. This type of behavior at shows has got to end no matter who the trainer is. It's an extremely sad commentary that I did not name the barn in my original post yet the precise BNT was the only one guessed by other posters, some not even at the show. That shows a history and pattern of behavior to me. We have been to many, many "A" shows. This was the first time I have seen this type of behavior on a continuous basis.

I PLEDGE here and now to always say something to the trainer and then the show management if dealing with this type of behavior again.

WILL OTHERS DO THE SAME????

Let's please turn this discussion into constructive action for the better!!!

________________
www.chadalefarms.com

RoyalTRider
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:28 AM
Third, even if he WAS illegal, that does not give one the right to threaten and blackmail to influence behavior. It's demeaning.

It's demeaning to treat a woman as a sexual object. It's demeaning that he thinks a woman cannot or should not defend herself against him. It's demeaning that he causes this behaviour to be associated with our sport.

I put up with this at WEF this year. What confuses me the most is this: how could any trainer keep a groom if there was even one incident where he displayed this behaviour? I can't imagine rationalizing that.

I think it's very important to understand and discuss this topic in the specific context of the horse world, as was the OP's intent. The fact that the behaviour is at horse shows changes things. It makes it likely that the same groups of people will cross paths repeatedly. It means that a person cannot just get up and leave (without significant cost to herself) and may even be stuck at the same location for several days dealing with the behavior. It means she will be wearing clothes that are form-fitting even when properly fitting. It is a unique context.

JollyBadger
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:34 AM
I've been following this thread and agree with Ponymom that it looks like it spun off into a debate about ethnic groups and legal vs illegal immigrants.

Would the behavior of the employees in question be any more or less acceptable of they were making rude gestures or comments in English? Or German? Or French?

Personally, I don't care what country they are from or what language is their native language. I'd think that any employee that a trainer chooses to bring along to a show is someone who should be able to be trusted to represent the farm while they are "on the job." They can THINK whatever they want when they see a girl walk by, but saying it out loud in any language is not acceptable.

They can think/do/say what they want when they're off the clock. . .again, in whatever language they prefer.

meupatdoes
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:43 AM
It's demeaning to treat a woman as a sexual object.

It's also demeaning to treat every brown spanish speaking person at a horseshow like an 'illegal' and find things like "la migra" to threaten them with every time you have a problem with them. It certainly is possible for women to 'defend themselves' against behavior like this without resorting to racist behavior, and maybe this is what we should be teaching our daughters.

Apparently many people find sexist treatment of women to be a major problem, but the racist treatment of men is a-ok.

This must be why people are having such tremendous difficulty separating the behavior of the grooms from their ethnicity.

"Make THEM get a translator?"
It just gets better and better.

Trakehner
Jul. 1, 2009, 07:52 AM
....but the racist treatment of men is a-ok...This must be why people are having such tremendous difficulty separating the behavior of the grooms from their ethnicity.
.

"In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women."

Sigh, apologists and low expectations. I lived in Caracas, Venezuela one summer with a freind and his family when I was a teenager. The guys I new there would not have hooted/barked/made sexist comments to girls..it's not part of a decent cultural level...it's lowlives and trashy behaviour. They may be hard-working lowlives, but it's the lowest class facet of the culture. If you dared call my friend Pedro's sister anything insulting, he'd have been on you instantly...the Madonna-Whore complex common in the Hispanic culture. The low life Hispanic women may see it as a compliment (the whore), but decent women aren't impressed by the insults of the low class scum.

It's insulting and racist to the decent Hispanics to pretend the barn grooms behaviour is part of their culture. Scum is scum no matter where they're from...the racism is low expectations for their behaviour and morals.

naters
Jul. 1, 2009, 07:55 AM
When I am in Saudi, I have to cover my head.

Ergo: When someone is in a professional environment, they should be professional.

No matter what their culture/nationality.


This whole post translated loosely to : "When in Rome....."

Sansena
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:41 AM
Anyone have any suggestions?

Call INS.

Seriously. You heard the clients tell them to 'shut up' in spanish, told the BNTs about the behaviour, can't go to the ring steward, etc. Want the problem solved FOR SURE??

Call INS.

Moderator 1
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:45 AM
We've removed references to the specific trainer involved, as this is an issue for the OP--who, with others from her barn, was the one experiencing the problem--to address directly with those involved, as she has said she is planning to do.

You're welcome to continue the general discussion re: appropriate ways of handling a problem with another outfit's empoyees, for the time being, but please shelve the immigration status debate, etc.

If you'd like to start another thread addressing the employment of illegal immigrants in the industry, you're welcome to do so, as long as that thread approaches it from a productive standpoint re: the issues affecting the industry as a whole.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Cita
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:50 AM
I personally have NO idea whether the grooms were legal vs. illegal or from what country they were from, NOR DO I CARE!!! I only know that the comments made to people were in spanish. This type of behavior at shows has got to end no matter who the trainer is. It's an extremely sad commentary that I did not name the barn in my original post yet the precise BNT was the only one guessed by other posters, some not even at the show. That shows a history and pattern of behavior to me. We have been to many, many "A" shows. This was the first time I have seen this type of behavior on a continuous basis.

I PLEDGE here and now to always say something to the trainer and then the show management if dealing with this type of behavior again.

WILL OTHERS DO THE SAME????

Let's please turn this discussion into constructive action for the better!!!

________________
www.chadalefarms.com

:yes::yes::yes:

meupatdoes
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:59 AM
"In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women."

Sigh, apologists and low expectations. I lived in Caracas, Venezuela one summer with a freind and his family when I was a teenager. The guys I new there would not have hooted/barked/made sexist comments to girls..it's not part of a decent cultural level...it's lowlives and trashy behaviour. They may be hard-working lowlives, but it's the lowest class facet of the culture. If you dared call my friend Pedro's sister anything insulting, he'd have been on you instantly...the Madonna-Whore complex common in the Hispanic culture. The low life Hispanic women may see it as a compliment (the whore), but decent women aren't impressed by the insults of the low class scum.

It's insulting and racist to the decent Hispanics to pretend the barn grooms behaviour is part of their culture. Scum is scum no matter where they're from...the racism is low expectations for their behaviour and morals.

Why are you quoting me on top of this statement?
I never said anything at all indicating "low expectations for their behavior and morals."

And after this whole thread I am still amazed to discover people chiming in with "Call INS."

I fail to understand why the mods are carefully eliminating any references to the trainer but not nipping this racist BS in the bud.

Trakehner
Jul. 1, 2009, 09:15 AM
Why are you quoting me on top of this statement?
I never said anything at all indicating "low expectations for their behavior and morals.".

Because you mentioned people separating the grooms behaviour from their ethnicity and then we hear from another poster justifying their behaviour as part of their ethnic heritage and as acceptable to the morays and folkways of their culture. People can't have it both ways and the low expectation is racist

Originally Posted by meupatdoes
....but the racist treatment of men is a-ok...This must be why people are having such tremendous difficulty separating the behavior of the grooms from their ethnicity.

Then we hear it's OK to be scum, it's their culture? Truly racist
"In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women."

dogchushu
Jul. 1, 2009, 09:18 AM
I've never seen the movie either(way before my time!)

No comment on the ongoing discussion. Just wanted to say that this makes me feel really, really OLD!

gasrgoose
Jul. 1, 2009, 09:39 AM
Ponymom4 you continue to show class by taking the high rode. I noticed someone sent you a PM, I hope it is from someone at the BNT farm. This thread has over 6600 views, surely the BNT cares a little about the reputation they are earning.

We are currently shopping for an additional pony for my daughter and we will steer clear of this BNT's barn, I will not subject my daughter to that kind of behavior. We were recently at a show with this BNT and tried several top level ponies (from two other BNT's), fortunately none were from this barn.

HuntJumpSC
Jul. 1, 2009, 09:40 AM
Whew~ just finished reading all 7 pages. Anyone care to pass me a shot of tequila? ;)
I agree with the OP, lewd behavior exhibited by the BNT's grooms is unacceptable, regardless of nationality or race. If it had been me personally, I would have said something to them first, and when it continued, then taken my complaint to the show officials. I have zero tolerance for being leered at, and on more than one occasion, have brought attention to it & embarassed the crap out of the offending male. I even caused one drunk idiot to fall out of his barstool one nite when I was out with my husband. I finally snapped at him "What are you looking at???"
But that's beside the point. It doesn't matter if they're legal or not. It's not professional behavior and it reflects badly on the BNT, especially if he/she condones it or does nothing about it.
Anyways, just my 2 cents...carry on...;)

Sansena
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:26 AM
It's called taking whatever means necessary to get the behaviour to stop.

Meupatdoes.. your ivy league educated friend would certainly NOT make barking noises, lewd jestures and comments to under-aged girls. And I'm sure no-one would equate behaving in such a way equivalent to 'parking too close' to their car.

You had a valid point. Until your penchant for exaggeration took over.

As another posted, scum is scum and should be dealt with accordingly.

Instant Karma
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:47 AM
What does it matter if he qualifies as FindEights classification of BNT or not? That behaviour is unacceptable, period.

meupatdoes
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:04 AM
It's called taking whatever means necessary to get the behaviour to stop.

Meupatdoes.. your ivy league educated friend would certainly NOT make barking noises, lewd jestures and comments to under-aged girls. And I'm sure no-one would equate behaving in such a way equivalent to 'parking too close' to their car.

You had a valid point. Until your penchant for exaggeration took over.

As another posted, scum is scum and should be dealt with accordingly.

There are plenty of lily white, exclusive-prep-school-educated frat boys who treat women the same way.

Would you call INS on them too?

Beenthere
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:16 AM
Quote from Ponymom4
It's an extremely sad commentary that I did not name the barn in my original post yet the precise BNT was the only one guessed by other posters, some not even at the show. That shows a history and pattern of behavior to me.

You did not need to name the trainer because if you go to horseshowonline for the raleigh show and pull up the trainer list you will see that was the only Florida farm/trainer at Raleigh thus it was not so difficult to say who it was. (Kind of like who is buried in Grant's tomb). People did not guess that name because this is a widespread problem at this one barn and does not show a history or pattern. It is not fair to leap to that conclusion because of a guess. The minute I read your post I did that search and knew instantly it could only be ONE barn.

I trust this will all get worked out and perhaps other trainers will instill a code of performance among their staff to behave appropriately. Many of these workers rely on tips from clients thus they are probably broke if behaving this way.

danosaur
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:22 AM
that's happened to me, but they always stopped when I indicated that I knew what they were saying. I'd confront the management because at the very least they are going to lose money if exhibitors are not comfortable at the show because they won't be coming back.

In the Air
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:27 AM
The trainer in question is now at the show grounds in Culpeper. I have sent a "very not to be messed with mom" down the barn to see what the grooms behavior is going to be... :D her daughter will have to pass by them many times a day and I don't think it will be pretty if we have repeat behavior like in NC...

Huntrs+eq
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:53 AM
People did not guess that name because this is a widespread problem at this one barn and does not show a history or pattern. It is not fair to leap to that conclusion because of a guess. The minute I read your post I did that search and knew instantly it could only be ONE barn.

As I said earlier, I knew exactly who it was after reading the OP--no need to search. Again, I can't tell you if it's a "widespread problem" but I did in fact encounter the same behavior at a show a good while ago which alerted me to the fact it was the same barn.

And to those claiming "Call INS!", how in the H*LL do you know, for a fact, the grooms are illegal and worthy of deportation. That is despicable to me.

luvs2ridewbs
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:30 PM
Next time just call the police.

2bayboys
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:35 PM
The behavior as described by the OP is not an arrestable offense. The police investigate crimes, not rudeness that is more appropriately handled by employers or management.

Trakehner
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:20 PM
There are plenty of lily white, exclusive-prep-school-educated frat boys who treat women the same way.Would you call INS on them too?

No, but I would call your description of "Lilly White" to be racist. Would you say "Coal Black" describing and African American? Caught you..."methinks you dost protest too much"

luvs2ridewbs
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:21 PM
Sounded to me like sexual harassment towards underage girls. I think thats something the police would get involved in.

Trakehner
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:31 PM
Sounded to me like sexual harassment towards underage girls. I think thats something the police would get involved in.

And assualt since the girls are afraid for their safety and consider the comments and gestures to be threats...especially since they don't sprecken spanish and don't know what threats are being made by a group of uncontrolled abusive males.

Arizona DQ
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:06 PM
I in no way feel that the grooms were justified in making lewd comments to anyone, but I think it's important to realize that other cultures are very different from ours. One of my good friends is from Panama, and she's helped me learn a lot about how and why Hispanic men often act the way they do. In many Hispanic cultures, it's a gesture of respect for a man to stop what work he's doing when a woman walks by, and it's my understanding that whistles and catcalls can be seen as compliments by Hispanic women. I may be completely off-base with these observations, and I invite anyone who feels that I am to correct me, but I'm working off of what my friend has shared with me.

.

While I understand the point you are trying to make, I have to disagree because while that behavoir may be cultural in their country, it is not acceptable in the USA. I am willing to bet that the grooms in question are well aware of the culture here and chose to ignore it...And if they were that ignorant, they should have quit after being told/asked to. If they want to be here in the USA, they should assimilate into our culture not bring theirs into this country!!

2bayboys
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:07 PM
. Every day throughout the day we had to listen to constant yelling in spanish from the grooms, barking at women walking by (yes, barking & no I wasn't barked at)), constant catcalls, especially when an attractive teen walked by, and generally loud behavior. My daughter knows some spanish and said the grooms were making very explicit passes and remarks about body parts.
________________
www.chadalefarms.com

Although all of this is crass and ugly, it does not as written articulate a threat. And "sexual harassment" is not a criminal offense. You can get fired for it, you can get sued for it, but you won't get arrested for it. If the teens were touched, lured to a private corner, offered alcohol, or prevented from leaving (a wash stall, tack room ,etc), or physically threatened in any way, that is criminal behavior and can be addressed by law enforcement.

"I'm going to kick your a**" is a threat.
"Your a** is a hot piece etc etc" is lewd but is not a crime.

meupatdoes
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:12 PM
No, but I would call your description of "Lilly White" to be racist. Would you say "Coal Black" describing and African American? Caught you..."methinks you dost protest too much"

May I present to you the definition (http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/lily-white) (and correct spelling) of lily-white.

Please see number 3.

For historical context, please see the following google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22lily+white+policy%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=).

3eme
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:18 PM
While I understand the point you are trying to make, I have to disagree because while that behavoir may be cultural in their country, it is not acceptable in the USA. I am willing to bet that the grooms in question are well aware of the culture here and chose to ignore it...And if they were that ignorant, they should have quit after being told/asked to. If they want to be here in the USA, they should assimilate into our culture not bring theirs into this country!!

just: wow

mbmarsh
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:27 PM
Wow - only eight pages for this thread to degrade into absolute nonsense. What started as a relatively constructive conversation about how to handle people who behave inappropriately at a horse show has now turned into mud-slinging and name-calling. Think it might be time to close before someone blows a blood vessel.

It's a shame too - I found the question of how to handle the behavior within the confines of horse show management, and who is responsible for correcting the behavior to be a very interesting and constructive one.

Everybody just calm down.......it's Miller Time somewhere! :)

LexInVA
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:42 PM
:lol: I knew this was coming from the first page.

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:45 PM
OK, clearly this post has taken an ethnic/immigration status that it was not originally intended. Anyone can look back over my posting history here at COTH. I do not go on rants, or target things or people and certainly do not go on BNT bashing; and I try to be positive. My original question is what would have been the best way to handle it. Since my original post I have found out from our trainer that there was a discussion at show at an ingate and another trainer confirmed the trainer's of the grooms' barn had been talked to about the grooms' behavior. I have no idea what the trainers did, I only know the behavior did not change and I witnessed it on Sat. and Sun.

I have also found out from my daughter while reading this thread with her about an extremely disturbing comment said directly to her by one of the grooms in question. Daughter is 17 and one of her horses is a stallion. As she was walking her horse back from the wash stall, one of the grooms commented to her nice stallion, I like him in english. She replied thank you, he's my sweetie, (or baby or something else to that effect that she always says). A 2nd groom asked in spanish if she could ride him like her stallion. Daughter responded iin spanish that she understood some spanish and if he did not shut up she would tell. Then she told the 1st groom his friend was loco and walked off. To the 1st groom's credit daughter said he looked horrified at the 2nd one's statement. She did not personally get bothered again but could still hear remarks made to other girls passing by. To me, just by the fact she personally did not get verbally harassed again tells me the grooms knew their conduct was not acceptable. However, it did not stop them from continuing.

I REALLY WISH I had known about this during the show. I am contacting the trainer tomorrow to discuss it. Daughter said she did not tell my husband or me at the show about that specific comment because we would have gone ballistic, and the boarders were having a good show otherwise and did not want drama. She only mentioned it to her friends at the show.

I personally have NO idea whether the grooms were legal vs. illegal or from what country they were from, NOR DO I CARE!!! I only know that the comments made to people were in spanish. This type of behavior at shows has got to end no matter who the trainer is. It's an extremely sad commentary that I did not name the barn in my original post yet the precise BNT was the only one guessed by other posters, some not even at the show. That shows a history and pattern of behavior to me. We have been to many, many "A" shows. This was the first time I have seen this type of behavior on a continuous basis.

I PLEDGE here and now to always say something to the trainer and then the show management if dealing with this type of behavior again.

WILL OTHERS DO THE SAME????

Let's please turn this discussion into constructive action for the better!!!

________________
www.chadalefarms.com

SO NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE ME UP ON MY CHALLENGE???

If everyone who reads this post pledges to do something about it the next time they are subject to or witness such behavior, I bet we could make a REAL difference.

Let's move forward and promote professionalism.

__________________
www.chadalefarms.com

Dun Ciarain
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:48 PM
Call INS.

Seriously. You heard the clients tell them to 'shut up' in spanish, told the BNTs about the behaviour, can't go to the ring steward, etc. Want the problem solved FOR SURE??

Call INS.

I think everyone has the wrong impression about the INS, which by the way, was changed to ICE some time back during a reorganization. You can't just call ICE and they will instantly respond with lights flashing and sirens blazing. They might make an investigation some time down the road, but even then, there would be jursdictional issues if the employer was in Florida and the employees were temporarily in NC, that is, if they even did an investigation. All government agencies are cutting staff and hours due to budget constraints and ICE is already overwhelmed with the current backlog of illegal aliens that they apparently no capable of deporting.

MHM
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:52 PM
I'm still waiting for a response from the trainer who employs these bozos, either here on the BB or directly to the OP.

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 03:56 PM
Actually MHM I have received a PM the BNT is horrified about the situation and wants to talk with me. We have exchanged cells and I hope to talk with him soon.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

MHM
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:04 PM
Actually MHM I have received a PM the BNT is horrified about the situation and wants to talk with me. We have exchanged cells and I hope to talk with him soon.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com



Good to know.

I hope this means neither you nor anyone else will have this problem with this particular bunch in the future.

At least you were only subjected to it for one show. I've had the misfortune to get stuck with bad neighbors at WEF once or twice. Believe me, it makes for a L-O-N-G winter.

I do think it's a valid discussion to have about the most effective reaction to this problem, which does crop up now and then.

Sebastian
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:11 PM
SO NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE ME UP ON MY CHALLENGE???

If everyone who reads this post pledges to do something about it the next time they are subject to or witness such behavior, I bet we could make a REAL difference.

Let's move forward and promote professionalism.

__________________
www.chadalefarms.com (http://www.chadalefarms.com)

Sorry, since I'm the one that chastised you, I figured it was a given... :winkgrin: Plus, I thought everyone knew that I was just a mean old beotch. :yes:

Very glad to see that you're not just "letting it go." KUDOS to you!!

Seb :)

Ghazzu
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:17 PM
SO NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE ME UP ON MY CHALLENGE???

If everyone who reads this post pledges to do something about it the next time they are subject to or witness such behavior, I bet we could make a REAL difference.

Let's move forward and promote professionalism.

__________________
www.chadalefarms.com (http://www.chadalefarms.com)


I've been "doing something" about such behavior since 1972, when I called out a bunch of construction workers on their gross behavior.
And it worked.

These days, I'm old and decrepit enough that all I get are second-hand reports...

cloudyandcallie
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:27 PM
Call the cops next time and file a report.

In most jurisdictions, "opprobrious words which cause a breach of the peace" constitute a crime, they might only get a few days in jail and a fine, but heck, it's worth it to see someone cuffed.:lol:

It's not whether they are hispanic or North Americans or white or black, it's that conduct such as that is not appropriate for a horse show, maybe for a bar, depending on what kind of bar you go to, but not for young girls. We have a young woman visiting here from Argentina. If any of the local rural white boys said something inappropriate or opprobrious to her,, I'd call the cops pronto, right after I told them off.

Dun Ciarain
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:49 PM
Call the cops next time and file a report.

In most jurisdictions, "opprobrious words which cause a breach of the peace" constitute a crime, they might only get a few days in jail and a fine, but heck, it's worth it to see someone cuffed.:lol:

It's not whether they are hispanic or North Americans or white or black, it's that conduct such as that is not appropriate for a horse show, maybe for a bar, depending on what kind of bar you go to, but not for young girls. We have a young woman visiting here from Argentina. If any of the local rural white boys said something inappropriate or opprobrious to her,, I'd call the cops pronto, right after I told them off.

The sad reality is that the courts are so backed up, police are cutting back staff and district attorneys are not even prosecuting theft cases (even with video evidence) and similar level crimes in many counties. The police won't even respond to non-injury accidents. I also know of instances where the police wouldn't respond to treats of physical violence even when there are witnesses. It's hard to imagine them showing up to arrest someone for foul, lewd and/or inappropriate language. I guess it really depends on what jurisdiction you are in.

Summit Springs Farm
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:49 PM
Wow, I have been contemplating what to say, as I ride with this BNT and know all the grooms you speak of, pretty well.

I consider most of them my friends, while I don't speak Spanish and have no idea what they are talking about, I guess I just assumed it was all in jest or none of my business what they were saying.

Also I do know they are noisy and that can be annoying, one of the guys has been with BNT for 10 plus years, most of them 5 plus yrs.

I am sorry they offended and acted inappropriately to your daughter and it was not acceptable nor would BNT think so.:mad:

BAC
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:51 PM
Actually MHM I have received a PM the BNT is horrified about the situation and wants to talk with me. We have exchanged cells and I hope to talk with him soon.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com (http://www.chadalefarms.com)

I am not surprised. The BNT in question has an excellent reputation from what I have heard, so it stands to reason he would want to know about the situation and be anxious to resolve the problem. Its also just good business sense.

Come Shine
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:57 PM
I consider most of them my friends, while I don't speak Spanish and have no idea what they are talking about, I guess I just assumed it was all in jest or none of my business what they were saying. my bold

I guess that was what happened in the OP. The people did know Spanish and didn't think it was very funny. Good luck at your barn.

kdow
Jul. 1, 2009, 05:01 PM
The sad reality is that the courts are so backed up, police are cutting back staff and district attorneys are not even prosecuting theft cases (even with video evidence) and similar level crimes in many counties. The police won't even respond to non-injury accidents. I also know of instances where the police wouldn't respond to treats of physical violence even when there are witnesses. It's hard to imagine them showing up to arrest someone for foul, lewd and/or inappropriate language. I guess it really depends on what jurisdiction you are in.

They may not show up to arrest someone, but depending on the area (i.e. how busy the police are with other things) I could well see police turning up to investigate and if necessary have a word with the people involved in order to prevent things from getting to the point where a crime is actually committed.

(Not in a harassing or threatening sense, just that sometimes a person in a clear position of authority like a police officer saying 'this is Not Okay' can be very effective. Some places are really interested in the role of the police in the community, and so the police are expected to be more involved with things than just dealing with issues where they can specifically arrest someone. But it does depend on the area and how busy the police are with actual crimes.)

867-5309
Jul. 1, 2009, 06:20 PM
Ponymom-

We operate a training barn and travel to shows most of the year through. I've experienced the best and worst of our neighbors & their help at shows and every single time I've come up across a situation like you've described I would wholeheartedly deal with it through confrontation directly with either the employee and/or employer then and there. Even if the head trainer's not with that string of horses, someone's in charge. No need for the roundabout communication of PMs etc.

If one of my owners came to me with your complaint it would be my responsibility to deal with it directly with the other professional- as I would expect any other professional to do with me if the tables were turned. What did your trainer offer/seem to have the propensity to do about it then and there? Curious. You did say he/she spoke to another trainer (and not the offending barn's trainer) about it at the ingate but you didn't even learn this til after the show.

fair judy
Jul. 1, 2009, 06:53 PM
my chilean husband of 25 years is a perfect gentleman. i met him at a horse show. he was legal, had two college degrees and speaks three languages fluently.

those of you who are making the quantuum leap of insinuating that every groom who speaks castellano is illegal, or worse, should be ashamed of yourselves. i might as well comment that every rich white little spoiled brat who walks around the showgrounds dressed in jiggling shelf bra tank tops with their designer jeans so low their bottoms are not fully covered deserves the treatment described by the OP.

put that completely hideous comment in your pipes and smoke it.

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:36 PM
Just so people on here know I DID NOT file any type of official complaint against the BNT nor did my trainer, nor the others at my barn (I am the BO).

Since my barn was not, by far, the only victims in this I can only surmise that someone else filed a complaint if it was concerning conduct from the NCHJA. We just happened to be stabled at the opposite end of the barn from them.

My trainer did not talk directly with the groom's barn. When I stopped by to drop off plants on Weds. I heard the grooms barking, catcalling and saying stuff in spanish to passers by. I asked my trainer if that had been going on all day she said yes. I asked if she had gone down to talk to the trainers and she said no because the girls showing at the barn did not want drama and begged her not to. She knew the mom across from us went down and it did no good. She asked what to do, we had already noticed little things with management and she was unsure if steward was correct one to go to. Keep in mind she works for me. I yielded to the wishes of the ones showing, thinking it would correct itself.

Last night is the first that I heard about the obscene remark made by one of the grooms directly to my daughter. She felt she handled it and I am proud of her composure. Those of you here on the board that do know her know she is not one to shy away from handling something. She did not tell us at the show because she knew my husband & I would go ballistic. The girls at the show were not wanting to stir up problems, were wanting to handle things themselves, and were also concerned some about the horses. They also knew from conversations at the ingate, ie. "oh you poor things, you're stabled down from them, etc." that at least one other trainer had talked to at least one of the BNT's trainers and the stiuation had not improved. A friend of my daughter's was barked at which does not help a teenage girl's psyche. So what to do next?

I certainly did not intend to create any type of legal/illegal discussion or on different cultures. To me it does not matter and I wish posters had stuck to the original topic.

I did not try to reach Don today since my schedule was so hectic. I appreciate his willingness to discuss it with me. I think at the very least the groom who made the proposition to my daughter should be fired. I am sorry he is in the hospital and will keep him and his family in my prayers.

It is my hope that this discussion will increase a new awareness by trainers to take more responsibility and greater control of their staff. Let's have something good come out of this.

_________________
www.chadalefarms.com

Meredith Clark
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:39 PM
(I am the BO).


_________________
www.chadalefarms.com

Side note- your farm looks lovely and I adore the covered riding ring!

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 08:50 PM
my chilean husband of 25 years is a perfect gentleman. i met him at a horse show. he was legal, had two college degrees and speaks three languages fluently.

those of you who are making the quantuum leap of insinuating that every groom who speaks castellano is illegal, or worse, should be ashamed of yourselves. i might as well comment that every rich white little spoiled brat who walks around the showgrounds dressed in jiggling shelf bra tank tops with their designer jeans so low their bottoms are not fully covered deserves the treatment described by the OP.

put that completely hideous comment in your pipes and smoke it.
fair judy - I'm sorry, but for starters, of all the girls I saw they were simply in their show clothes. Nobody was "jiggling" aroung the showgrounds and certainly not anyone in my barn can be called a "rich white little spoiled brat". Also, of the ones I saw, there didn't appear anyone that would fit your discription above.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

Summit Springs Farm
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:03 PM
my bold

I guess that was what happened in the OP. The people did know Spanish and didn't think it was very funny. Good luck at your barn.

Thanks for your well wishes, but I guess I am just too involed with the reason I am at a show, then to worry too much about the grooms, frankly I don't give a rat's ass what the grooms are saying to one another, I just do not care, I am too busy showing my horses to have anything to do with them!!Get it!:mad:

Summit Springs Farm
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:13 PM
Again to the OP, He would not approve of the behavior of the groom nor so I.

fair judy
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:21 PM
fair judy - I'm sorry, but for starters, of all the girls I saw they were simply in their show clothes. Nobody was "jiggling" aroung the showgrounds and certainly not anyone in my barn can be called a "rich white little spoiled brat". Also, of the ones I saw, there didn't appear anyone that would fit your discription above.

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

i guess you don't recognize hyperbole when you see it.

i think this discussion is completely vile, and now, in light of DS being in the hospital it is beyond the bounds of decent behavior.

you should have taken care of this yourself instead of bringing it to a public forum for the hounds of hate to gnaw on.

i think the mods should have closed this long ago.

mvp
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:58 PM
And would this thread existed at all had the rich, white girl made a rude or demeaning remark to a groom employed by her trainer? If you think the shoe has never been on the other foot, you have another thing coming.

Please, such a tempest in a teapot over a guy making cat calls at a teenage girl. The kid dealt with it. Everyone else, beginning with the OP ought to follow suit. Ferchrissakes, you guys.

Ponymom4
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:17 PM
OK, I'm only going to clarify this once for those who obviously have not read this entire thread. This is MORE than about ONE remark to ONE girl. This is about behavior of barking, catcalling, saying things in spanish on a regular basis to ANYONE who passes that they choose to address. In one instance my daughter understood the spanish and it was a crude proposition.

These most recent posts attacking a girl they do not know and calling it a tempest in a teapot is perhaps one of the reasons behavior like this is tolerated. Yes, I should have personally done something at the show, but I knew others had tried, and I was yielding to the requests of my boarders for no drama. I posted to try to find out the best way to handle something like this in the future. Since this posts I have received numerous pm's from ones saying they either witnessed the behavior or had been a victim in the past.

Is it too much to ask that employers take responsibility for their employees?

_______________
www.chadalefarms.com

mvp
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:23 PM
How does calling this thread a tempest in a teapot amount to attacking a girl? That's not fair.

Look, I'm sorry this happened to your kid. I don't mean to defend the groom's behavior. But you said she didn't mention it at the time because you and your husband would "go ballistic." It seems to me you got your chance to go ballistic, or at least very public with all this, whatever you say about wanting something positive to come out of this.

Why not handle it "in house"? Call the trainer the tuesday after the show and let him know that his employees stepped way out of line and give him a chance to handle it?

Carol Ames
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:24 PM
Go to their employer, write a letter to the editor of COTH

fair judy
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:36 PM
And would this thread existed at all had the rich, white girl made a rude or demeaning remark to a groom employed by her trainer? If you think the shoe has never been on the other foot, you have another thing coming.

Please, such a tempest in a teapot over a guy making cat calls at a teenage girl. The kid dealt with it. Everyone else, beginning with the OP ought to follow suit. Ferchrissakes, you guys.

amen, brutha!!!

the kid dealt better than the barn owning mother.

btw, i read the entire disintegrating racist load of manure, OP. you were coy about not revealing who the bnt was, and the man who you chose to smear instead of talking to directly put the "B" in the idiotic term........

man up, woman. your kid had you pegged. stick to owning the barn......

fair judy
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:38 PM
Appendectomy. Should be fine.

good to hear that. thanx.

Sherry
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:41 PM
I have just finished reading this entire thread. As a show manager, I would want to be informed if behavior like this were going on at one of my shows. The OP or another adult who witnessed this behavior, should have notified the show manager right away. If it were at one of my shows, and it was the first time I was hearing about the problem, I would have spoken with the trainer responsible for the grooms in question and informed him/her that this kind of behavior would not be tolerated at my show. If the behavior continued, I would have gotten the Steward involved. Under USEF rules, anyone on the grounds of a USEF sanctioned show is expected to obey the rules of the USEF regardless if he or she is a USEF member.

Long Spot
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:43 PM
Ponymom, I've read the whole thread. I get it. I've been the victim of this sort of behavior before too. In various different places. It's not right. Whether it happens at the grocery store or at a horse show doesn't matter. Nor does what the person being barked and cat called to was wearing matter. It's wrong.

You sound like you have it handled so I have no comments on that. But I will say this thread sure took on a life of it's own that you never hinted at or started. Your daughter sounds like a girl with her head on straight and high self esteem. Good for you for raising such a strong girl.

Mardi
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:44 PM
This must be why people are having such tremendous difficulty separating the behavior of the grooms from their ethnicity.

"Make THEM get a translator?"
It just gets better and better.

Yes. Make THEM (those that do not speak the prevailing language of a country) get a translator, so they can better understand what is being said to them in the work place.

What's wrong with that ?

Jumphigh83
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:49 PM
Since WHEN is womanizing behavior OK? I dont care WHAT race/religion/color/gender/etc/etc someone is!!! The behavior is beyond disgusting and those that think it is OK ...I guess I am shocked...I thought woman had come a LOT farther in the past fifty/one hundred YEARS than that....talk about lack of class ...wow. And I am even MORE horrified that there are woman on here DEFENDING IT!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Fixerupper
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:53 PM
It sounds like your daughter handled it just fine...congratulate her and move on....
It is likely not the only time in her life that she will have to deal with rudeness...

Been there there...done that...lived through it... :cool:

By all means complain to the employer of the a$$holes about it, but there is no need to make a federal case about it....

mvp
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:01 AM
The problem with this particular situation is that it's not only about feminism. It's also about racism, classism and jingoism.

Again, I want to see a trainer, parent or show manager who takes the snotty kid to task for rudely bossing around a groom working at the barn where she rides. It happens all the time and no one launches a campaign that might go as far as the editor's desk at COTH.

By and large, I'd say grooms suffer more exploitation than do clients.

Go Fish
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:03 AM
To the OP:

Thank you for bringing this to everyones' attention. From the posts on this thread, your experience is obviously not an isolated incident. Despite the posters who have disparaged you and others, the rest of us are now enlightened and will be more aware. If I see behavior such as you described at a show, you can bet your buttons that I'll be headed straight to the show office.

It's good that the head trainer will take care of the issue. I brought up your experience with MY trainer, and he was appalled. He said that if any of his employees behaved like this, they would be fired on the spot. His comment? "I couldn't risk my business and reputation like that."

You go girl!

meupatdoes
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:04 AM
I'd be interested to see where saying that it is unacceptable to be racist in RESPONSE to womanizing behavior = DEFENDING womanizing behavior.

What, women can't be empowered unless it is socially acceptable for them to be racist?



As for Mardi, you should probably consider learning some Cherokee.
Just sayin'.

gg4918
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:25 AM
I dont understand, (granted I skipped about 9 pages of reading) but why would racism even come up? Innapropriate and uncomfortable catcalling is inappropriate and uncomfortable no matter what anybodys race is. I dealt with it in my junior years and quite honestly, I still get nervous to do night check when down the aisle there are grooms that speak vulgarities about me, where it be in English or spanish or ukrainian or WHATEVER. I dont put up with it in any place, it doesnt matter if its a horse show or not. Tastless behavior makes me cringe and recoil and we honestly dont need to be dealing with that while concentrating on our horses.
Innaporiate behavior is universal and the catcalling and wistleing should be condemned - horse shows are a professional environment, NOT a skeevy night club where girls are to be eyed up like pieces of meat.

fair judy
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:26 AM
The problem with this particular situation is that it's not only about feminism. It's also about racism, classism and jingoism.

Again, I want to see a trainer, parent or show manager who takes the snotty kid to task for rudely bossing around a groom working at the barn where she rides. It happens all the time and no one launches a campaign that might go as far as the editor's desk at COTH.

By and large, I'd say grooms suffer more exploitation than do clients.

BINGO, AGAIN.

BO mother writes inflammatory rhetoric and "accidentally" starts firestorm of anti-latino garbage. in the process BO shows that she can't put on her big girl panties and actually engage a completely approachable bnt on the issue and caves (to the probably great advice of her TRAINER) but can't stand not being in charge so posts defamatory innuendo on a national forum for sympathy. BO mother happens to be an attorney and promises to keep the direct line to the INS in her tack trunk. further intimates that the bad latinos might do something to their stock, which is frankly a hideous and completely idiotic and assumptive comment based on the nationality of the offenders.

NICE. BTW, your kid is probably ready to kill you by now, and i feel really sorry for your trainer.

Mardi
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:33 AM
By and large, I'd say grooms suffer more exploitation than do clients.

I can tell you a show barn in southern California where they'll prove you wrong. :)

The grooms rule the roost. The trainers don't care, and the owners don't know.

Very sad. Because the horses get the worst of it.

Parker_Rider
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:34 AM
As for Mardi, you should probably consider learning some Cherokee.
Just sayin'.

hahahhaa, this is my favorite post of the night....

But I must say, I was incredibly confused today when I got out of my car in the midst of a show announcement. I was trying to hear if it was my ring/how long I had. And I was like "What are they saying? I don't get it?!" because it took me about 5 seconds to figure out it was in Spanish. Needless to say, our grooms were laughing at me pretty hard ;) (this is related because, well, CO used to be Mexican territory...)

Hey, with the influx of Spanish, at least we're coming a little bit closer to the level of Europeans who have an unfair advantage in the language dept. ;)
One way or another, I really don't care.

Lewd in English is the same as lewd in Slovakian is the same as lewd in Spanish. Props to the OP to posing the question of who we should go to if this ever happens with anyone, grooms/jump crew/whomever.

[edit]

EShunter
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:35 AM
This has gone on way too long off of the op's original subject. I've known [the trainer] for years and know he would take care of the situation. Most grooms can show you fake info and you are not heald responsible, but why is that even an issue w/ this topic? They work their tails off for you, and the few that do not behave right are usually fired quickly. I have had experience w/ this. All it took was a phone call to the BNT about the actions of an employee. He was not allowed on the showgrounds, and his bags were in the lobby. Adios. I'm pretty sure [he] would do the same. Really, enough of the racist talk. Most of the grooms are good people. They work harder than man bum Americans do.

Mardi
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:41 AM
.

But I must say, I was incredibly confused today when I got out of my car in the midst of a show announcement. I was trying to hear if it was my ring/how long I had. And I was like "What are they saying? I don't get it?!" because it took me about 5 seconds to figure out it was in Spanish.


What show was this ?

gg4918
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:41 AM
my chilean husband of 25 years is a perfect gentleman. i met him at a horse show. he was legal, had two college degrees and speaks three languages fluently.

What does that have to do with what the OP is saying? If youre implying that she's being racist, I POURED over her original post and there is NOTHING implying racism in there. Simply a concern for something that, truthfully, has gotten out of hand at horse shows.


those of you who are making the quantuum leap of insinuating that every groom who speaks castellano is illegal, or worse, should be ashamed of yourselves. i might as well comment that every rich white little spoiled brat who walks around the showgrounds dressed in jiggling shelf bra tank tops with their designer jeans so low their bottoms are not fully covered deserves the treatment described by the OP.
No matter what an woman is wearing, it NEVER makes it ok for her to be the recipient of crude remarks and demeaning catcalls.
Ps. Might I add that I have never seen a pair of designer jeans cut so low that you can see somebody's bottom...I literally have never seen a pair of Sevens, or Rock and Republics ect. cut that low.
PPS. What on earth is worse than illegal? "illegal, or worse"


put that completely hideous comment in your pipes and smoke it.

Mature. Very mature.

Parker_Rider
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:46 AM
What show was this ?

High Prairie Summer Opener. I dont' have a clue what announcement they were making, but I do know we have a fair number of Mexicans/Dominican/etc showing here, more than usual. I was asking Juan for a translation but then we got sidetracked on sponges. And how I blame him for everything (I don't!). Basically another one of our stupid sarcastic back and forths that no one pays attention to anymore ;)

EShunter
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:48 AM
sorry, hopefully it is figured out, but I menat to say MANY bum Americans

Sebastian
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:50 AM
BINGO, AGAIN.

BO mother writes inflammatory rhetoric and "accidentally" starts firestorm of anti-latino garbage. in the process BO shows that she can't put on her big girl panties and actually engage a completely approachable bnt on the issue and caves (to the probably great advice of her TRAINER) but can't stand not being in charge so posts defamatory innuendo on a national forum for sympathy. BO mother happens to be an attorney and promises to keep the direct line to the INS in her tack trunk. further intimates that the bad latinos might do something to their stock, which is frankly a hideous and completely idiotic and assumptive comment based on the nationality of the offenders.

NICE. BTW, your kid is probably ready to kill you by now, and i feel really sorry for your trainer.

This is everything I hate about most "show barn" people... But, then again, I almost forgot, you have no problem disfiguring your horse in order to win a hunter ribbon...

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=172875&page=2

And, if you two (yeah, talkin' to you too, mvp) REALLY think there has never been a thread on COTH regarding "bratty teenage horse girls" -- you're denser than you sound.

Why all vitriolic? OP wanted advice on specific situation of inappropriate behavoir. Be constructive.

Seb

fair judy
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:51 AM
What does that have to do with what the OP is saying? If youre implying that she's being racist, I POURED over her original post and there is NOTHING implying racism in there. Simply a concern for something that, truthfully, has gotten out of hand at horse shows.


No matter what an woman is wearing, it NEVER makes it ok for her to be the recipient of crude remarks and demeaning catcalls.
Ps. Might I add that I have never seen a pair of designer jeans cut so low that you can see somebody's bottom...I literally have never seen a pair of Sevens, or Rock and Republics ect. cut that low.
PPS. What on earth is worse than illegal? "illegal, or worse"



Mature. Very mature.

nothing implying racism?

"I'm also writing down that spanish line about INS to keep in the tack trunks."

is she going to write down the line for "leave me alone" in english?

it is really sad that this woman and many like her don't even realize their prejudice is on display.

so Impressed at your shallow knowlege of the different "designer accoutrements"........ me? i like levi's..........

gg4918
Jul. 2, 2009, 01:17 AM
nothing implying racism?

"I'm also writing down that spanish line about INS to keep in the tack trunks."

is she going to write down the line for "leave me alone" in english?

it is really sad that this woman and many like her don't even realize their prejudice is on display.

so Impressed at your shallow knowlege of the different "designer accoutrements"........ me? i like levi's..........

Just because I have a sister who's deeply involved in the fashion industry doesnt mean that I'm shallow. It makes me knowledgeable.
You dont know me, you are in no position to call me shallow.
And I like my levis, Gap jeans, and wranglers just fine too.

And, in the first place, this topic wasnt made to be prejudiced or discriminating, it was made to draw attention to the inappropriate behavior that goes on at the horse shows, despite your best efforts to draw attention away from it.

EShunter
Jul. 2, 2009, 01:29 AM
We are currently shopping for an additional pony for my daughter and we will steer clear of this BNT's barn, I will not subject my daughter to that kind of behavior. We were recently at a show with this BNT and tried several top level ponies (from two other BNT's), fortunately none were from this barn.

Please don't go off of replies of others to make your decision. It will not hurt [the trainer] if you do not buy from him, but it is rediculouse if an online forum makes up your mind. I mean if someone on here said jump off a bridge, would you?

RoyalTRider
Jul. 2, 2009, 07:16 AM
COTH threads have caused many people to chose (not) to shop at businesses, buy horses, and switch barns. No, people shouldn't read posts here like gospel. But it's often wise to take them into account.

RoyalTRider
Jul. 2, 2009, 07:27 AM
Yes. Make THEM (those that do not speak the prevailing language of a country) get a translator, so they can better understand what is being said to them in the work place.

Agreed. I can't help but think that if I posted a thread about going to ride in France, or Spain, or Germany and how annoyed I was that people wouldn't speak to me in English, the thread would be at least this long of people (very validly) calling my behaviour and attitude utterly rude and unacceptable. Now, add what has happened to the OP's daughter. I can't even imagine the furor that would ensue if I posted that I handled the France/Spain/Germany situation just fine. I just cursed the people in English, right in front of them, to rub in the fact that, well, I can. That is what has happened here. Replace cursed with sexually harassed.

KateUCET101
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:14 AM
After reading the OP's thread, it was pretty obvious to me which barn she must be referring to. Every time I've seen this barn at a show their boys have acted in a similar manner.

je.suis
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:20 AM
And would this thread existed at all had the rich, white girl made a rude or demeaning remark to a groom employed by her trainer? If you think the shoe has never been on the other foot, you have another thing coming.

Please, such a tempest in a teapot over a guy making cat calls at a teenage girl. The kid dealt with it. Everyone else, beginning with the OP ought to follow suit. Ferchrissakes, you guys.

The grooms (well, the actual working ones) aren't on computers reading COTH and venting therefore this thread would not exist for them if the shoe was on the other foot. Don't move to NYC. If the constuction workers give your daughter the business, the mayor surely doesn't care so don't call him, in any language. Same with horse shows. Just makes for a very long show.

cloudyandcallie
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:24 AM
And as OP and others have said, it is not that the offenders were of a certain race, but that they were sexually harassing young girls. Playing the race card as a defense to such actions is wrong. People who complain about opprobrious and sexually explicit language are not racists. People need to quit defending unacceptable and illegal behavior by anyone. If white male Americans had been "barking" and using such language, would anyone have come to their defense? I hope not.
I hope this outting of this particular barn will result in better behavior on the part of all its grooms, no matter where they are from, since others have posted that the behavior by them has been observed at other shows.

Actually in NYC and other big cities, it is very annoying to have construction workers yell things. And I've seen women yell back to get them to shut up. But if you call a cop over, and cops are on the streets of NYC, he'll tell them to cool it.

showjumpers66
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:27 AM
I agree and would venture to guess that the opposite is true, that most are illegal. They are working on a bill to legalize agriculture workers and I think it is an awesome idea. It is really tough to find someone to work heavy labor with long hours at minimum wage, which is the reality of the horse business. That said, I would have probably confronted the grooms myself (they are adults and responsible for their own behavior) and if that did not resolve it, I would have spoken to one of the trainers, working up the ladder, leaving the show office as the final result.



That has to be one of the funniest things I've read on here in a long time. :lol:

That being said, it's true nobody wants their staff to disappear at a horse show. It's very hard to get horses to the ring without help. So you could try the Miss Manners approach:

"Are you aware your grooms are causing a problem? You may want to take care of it before somebody calls INS.";)

mvp
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:32 AM
Here's the thing I'm left with-- the embarrassment caused by the OP who didn't try to handle this directly first.

I'll assume that [the trainer] would and will deal with his out-of-line employee when 1) a client asks, 2) he has heard both sides and 3) has figured out what's best for his business. While he's not responsible for the behavior of his clients, I'd have a hard time joining a barn whose politics let *anyone* get exploited.

Moderator 1
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:38 AM
We're closing this per our previous post re: keeping names and immigration status out of the discussion.

We've removed/edited some posts.

Mod 1