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EAY
Jun. 30, 2009, 10:25 AM
In the braiding thread I saw mention that at some local shows the lines are "only" set for a twelve foot step but that that was appropriate for smaller (2'6 and under) jumps. At what point do they start setting the lines for a bigger step? Is it for anything 3'6 and up? And for how big of a step are the set?

On a side note I do wish they would set the lines for even a twelve foot step at our local shows. Here they're set for ten feet, even for the 3' divisions, and it's a pain if your horse has a normal to large stride. As has been mentioned before, it's one reason why it's sometimes worthwhile to pay the extra fees to go to the rated shows especially if that's where you hope to be headed anyway.

raave05
Jun. 30, 2009, 10:37 AM
well, they don't set the stride any different, in so much that a horse's stride is measured at 12 feet, irregardless of the height of a fence. you'll see course designers play around with distances, but it's all predicated on that 12 foot stride.

for most horses, you wouldn't want the distance based on a stride any longer than that, because it would encourage the average horse to run down to their fences, which could lead to flat jumping effort and lots of rails. at 3' and below, 12' strides are typically a little on the long side anyway. your unrated shows probably put the lower divisions at 10' to encourage softer, more collected jumping efforts, as you often have to boogey to make a line set at normal distances for such small jumps.

MyGiantPony
Jun. 30, 2009, 10:40 AM
I design the courses for our association's shows, non rated, nothing over 2'9, and I set everything on the 12' stride.

No one seems to have a problem getting around any more than they do at any other show, except maybe the very green horse or rider.

LetsRide
Jun. 30, 2009, 11:04 AM
Here you go. At the USEF level typically the the 3' is set for around a 12'6" stride. The 3'6" is set for about a 13' foot stride. I think the chart looks off for the two stride lines though. Maybe someone messed with it?

http://www.mdccorporation.us/course/usef_distances.html

RugBug
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:02 PM
well, they don't set the stride any different, in so much that a horse's stride is measured at 12 feet, irregardless of the height of a fence. you'll see course designers play around with distances, but it's all predicated on that 12 foot stride.


Not so much. These days, the larger classes are usually set around 13', as LetsRide posted.

We set at 12' for our schooling shows and have classes up to 3'6". At about 3' things begin to be a bit tight...even for the average strided horses. We tend to do a lot more bending lines, where striding is optional/dependent on track, for the larger stuff (they are jumper classes, so it makes sense).

findeight
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:14 PM
well, they don't set the stride any different, in so much that a horse's stride is measured at 12 feet, irregardless of the height of a fence. you'll see course designers play around with distances, but it's all predicated on that 12 foot stride.



Ummm...a whole lot of things go into a course designer's decisions, like terrain (up or down hill), ring size, indoor or outdoor and HEIGHT OF THE FENCES.

The idea is the arc of the horse over the fence should be, in a perfect world, the same size as the canter strides. Hence at 2'6" you would be anywhere between 11'6" and 12' depending on your ring size. At 3' you would be at that 12' to about 12'6" and at 3'6" you are at 13' to 13'6".

A 12' stride at 3' may be the starting point in figuring out where to set things but it is not appropriate at 2' any more then it is at 3'6".

And most local shows "set it and forget it" so they never have to move them, not to encourage any softer, more collected ride at 10'...a distance, have to say, I could not cram mine into and it's not that gifted in the step department. Plus it could encourage a leave out and you sure don't want that

Most locals set at 12 because there is room to add one in the baby stuff and most should get it at 2'6"...although it will not ride as pretty as something just a smidge less at those heights unless you are in a big, outdoor ring.

At rated shows with licensed designers, a 5 stride line in the 2'6" might be set at 70', in the 3' at 72' and in the 3'6" at 76' or so. So the answer to the OPs question is they go up after 3'. That is assuming the fence height is honest...if it's more "friendly", the lines need to come in a little. Otherwise the smaller jump in is going to leave them short trying to get out and make them fire to get out...not a pretty picture.

DMK
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:23 PM
If the ring is big enough, I expect to see 3'0 divisions set on the 12'3 to 12'6 step at an A/AA show, with a longer line being close to a 12'3 step (i.e., a 6 stride will be set at 86' rather than the 12'6 step of 87'6, but a 4 stride is almost always closer to the 12'6 step of 62'6 instead of 61'3. If the ring is small or the footing is bad, then 12-12'3 step is generally used just because you don't have time to get rockin' and rolling.

I do remember riding in an indoor (big, thank heavens) where the 3'6 was set on the 13' step. That was a never say die, never say slow down ride to be sure. ;)

Midge
Jun. 30, 2009, 12:41 PM
And I remember doing the 2'6" set out on the 12+ distances. Fortunately for me, I was deliberately adding. I am sure there were some non-deliberate adds, too!

DMK
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:13 PM
yeah, unless you have some sort of monster strided super relaxed greenie, I'm not sure what you gain by doing the numbers on the 12 step at 2'6! Running down to nothing ain't no way to bring along a hunter prospect!

RugBug
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:22 PM
And I remember doing the 2'6" set out on the 12+ distances. Fortunately for me, I was deliberately adding. I am sure there were some non-deliberate adds, too!

My personal favorite was the when the distances were all over the place and didn't match the course chart. The two outside lines were riding LONG, LONG, LONG even for the long strided horses, but the chart had them listed right on 12'. Most were adding and there was a crash or two when a 'Never-say-die' person got there on the half and the horse was like 'uh-uh.' I had a class in that ring and thankfully, didn't have to do either line. I was wringing my hands most of the day about the prospect of it on the short-strided horse and then I'd remember the course was mostly singles with a bending line or two. :cool:

DMK
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:29 PM
I did that to myself once. After the jrs were done and the 3'0 divisions went in, they adjusted the course accordingly. I came down to the ring for my 3'0 division and the course had a typo on it and still had two of the lines at the jr distance. Both were coming home and in since it was a small arena the jr numbers were conservative. It wasn't out of the realm for a 3'0 horse to do those numbers, just maybe not in this particular ring, and it sure looked odd against the numbers on the other lines. So I geared up for a never say die run for home on the first line home (figured the last line home would be right there). Uh, about the third time as it came up early, my brain calculated that perhaps it wasn't really as long as thought it was.

But it sure was interesting to try and create two different rides in one course and still make it look slike I wanted to win a class. :lol:

Janet
Jun. 30, 2009, 01:47 PM
When I went to a course design clinic with Linda Allen she said-
- For a HUNTER course you adjust the distances as the fences go up
- For a JUMPER course you keep the distances the same as the fences go up

ETA that she was talking about 3' and up for jumpers. For smaller jumper courses you may want to adjust the distances because either the horses or the riders are probably greener.

Midge
Jun. 30, 2009, 02:06 PM
Uh, about the third time as it came up early, my brain calculated that perhaps it wasn't really as long as thought it was.

I went to Tryon one year when the line along the side was a five on warmup day, a five the first day, and a six the second day. So, the second day I jump in, start kicking and that second jump was damn far away. I thought, 'Well, I am just not going to get there.' and steadied for the add. I was cantering through the turn, still completely confused about not getting there when I remembered it was a six. Duh.

Not that I am incapable of both kicking and pulling inside the same line under normal circumstances...

horsestablereview
Jun. 30, 2009, 03:26 PM
When I went to a course design clinic with Linda Allen she said-
- For a HUNTER course you adjust the distances as the fences go up
- For a JUMPER course you keep the distances the same as the fences go up

That makes sense.

PS. LOVE Linda Allen! If you ever have the opportunity to ride/audit her clinics, drop everything you're doing that weekend and go!

Gry2Yng
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:01 PM
When I went to a course design clinic with Linda Allen she said-
- For a HUNTER course you adjust the distances as the fences go up
- For a JUMPER course you keep the distances the same as the fences go up

So eventer that I am (and Janet we both know that our courses are set based on where the jumps fall off the truck), please explain that comment to me.

I am following the discussion about legthening the distances as the fences go up in the hunters. Not so much the compare and contrast from LA.

ETA: As I clean the kitchen I think...Does this mean, as the jumps go up we expect jumpers to be adjustable? Is that what you/LA are getting at? Whereas hunters get on a step and stay on it, thus we have to adjust the distances to accommodate the arc and the constant step, with jumpers as the training and the height increases we expect them to adjust and deal with it?

Janet
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:06 PM
So eventer that I am (and Janet we both know that our courses are set based on where the jumps fall off the truck), please explain that comment to me.

I am following the discussion about legthening the distances as the fences go up in the hunters. Not so much the compare and contrast from LA.

ETA: As I clean the kitchen I think...Does this mean, as the jumps go up we expect jumpers to be adjustable? Is that what you/LA are getting at? Whereas hunters get on a step and stay on it, thus we have to adjust the distances to accommodate the arc and the constant step, with jumpers as the training and the height increases we expect them to adjust and deal with it? You got it. Jumpers are SUPPOSED to adjust. Hunters are not.

Gry2Yng
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:09 PM
I wish I didn't have to sweep the kitchen floor in order to have my brain kick in.

DMK
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:19 PM
Does this mean, as the jumps go up we expect jumpers to be adjustable? Is that what you/LA are getting at? Whereas hunters get on a step and stay on it, thus we have to adjust the distances to accommodate the arc and the constant step, with jumpers as the training and the height increases we expect them to adjust and deal with it?

Yes, jumpers are adjustable and the idea of a course that falls entirely on the step is not terribly challenging. Also as the jumps get bigger a jumper needs to get close to the base in order to deal with the ever increasing width.

Hunters, on the other hand are judged purely on style and a flowing out of the pace jump (i.e., the "gap") and the bigger fences allows for a bigger arc and a more brisk pace, ergo we move the lines out.

heh heh heh, we have an eventer at my barn (I caveat this to say that I do not judge eventers by this person any more than I judge jumpers by theat skeery speedball in the c/a jumpers). Anyway, we had a simple 72' line set up and I set it at 2'9 in and 3'0 going out. The first time through I put the add in and did a 6, then the next time I had a nice flowing one out of the turn and did a 5 with a perfect bit of steadying on step 4/5 to make for a nice oxer. I watched as she went in and I guess she thought the 5 would just be there. Scared the crap out of me with 5 + a leg. :eek:

She did ask me if I got a 5 and how I did that, to which I explained a 5 on a 72' line is about as short as we work with, and generally the lines are a bit longer but our goal is to have a horse with a nice relaxed, forward pace so it works. She did look at me with a bit of superiority and told me if the jumps were bigger then it would work for eventers, to which I howled with laughter and said if the jumps were bigger for the hunters we would move them WAY out. :lol: But this one definitely marches to her own beat tha tmay not sync up with jumpers or eventers. ;) In my world jumpers may not always do the five on a 3 foot 72' line for training purposes, but they are most certainly expected to do a 5 and a 6 at the rider's pleasure. It's not like trainers who have both hunters and jumpers change up the lines for each discipline.

subk
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:20 PM
The idea is the arc of the horse over the fence should be, in a perfect world, the same size as the canter strides.
Interesting point. In eventerland we general relate the "ideal arc" or bascule to the actual fence so that it describes a half circle. So, instead of looking at stride length we (or more actually "me" and the trainers I work with) would say the ideal take off is the same distance in front of a fence and the fence is high then lands the same distance behind the fence. So the horizontal measurement of the bascule (point take off to point of landing) should be twice the fence height. There is some adjustment for oxers as the horse needs to jump higher to get the width.

On this principle I generally will walk a course by finding my *landing* spot then stride out from there to the take off spot of the next fence. Easier than math and remembering numbers.

Gry2Yng
Jun. 30, 2009, 04:59 PM
Yes, jumpers are adjustable and the idea of a course that falls entirely on the step is not terribly challenging. Also as the jumps get bigger a jumper needs to get close to the base in order to deal with the ever increasing width.

Hunters, on the other hand are judged purely on style and a flowing out of the pace jump (i.e., the "gap") and the bigger fences allows for a bigger arc and a more brisk pace, ergo we move the lines out.

heh heh heh, we have an eventer at my barn (I caveat this to say that I do not judge eventers by this person any more than I judge jumpers by theat skeery speedball in the c/a jumpers). Anyway, we had a simple 72' line set up and I set it at 2'9 in and 3'0 going out. The first time through I put the add in and did a 6, then the next time I had a nice flowing one out of the turn and did a 5 with a perfect bit of steadying on step 4/5 to make for a nice oxer. I watched as she went in and I guess she thought the 5 would just be there. Scared the crap out of me with 5 + a leg. :eek:

She did ask me if I got a 5 and how I did that, to which I explained a 5 on a 72' line is about as short as we work with, and generally the lines are a bit longer but our goal is to have a horse with a nice relaxed, forward pace so it works. She did look at me with a bit of superiority and told me if the jumps were bigger then it would work for eventers, to which I howled with laughter and said if the jumps were bigger for the hunters we would move them WAY out. :lol: But this one definitely marches to her own beat tha tmay not sync up with jumpers or eventers. ;) In my world jumpers may not always do the five on a 3 foot 72' line for training purposes, but they are most certainly expected to do a 5 and a 6 at the rider's pleasure. It's not like trainers who have both hunters and jumpers change up the lines for each discipline.

LOL! I can say that I very much appreciate that you not judge all of us, based on your experience with one of us. I hope you appreciate that I try to do the same with the h/j ladies I meet. While the size/type of jump is relevant, tell me to do 5 then 6 then 4 on that 72' line and I will get it done for you. Make me do the 4 first and well...

Gry2Yng
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:14 PM
Interesting point. In eventerland we general relate the "ideal arc" or bascule to the actual fence so that it describes a half circle. So, instead of looking at stride length we (or more actually "me" and the trainers I work with) would say the ideal take off is the same distance in front of a fence and the fence is high then lands the same distance behind the fence. So the horizontal measurement of the bascule (point take off to point of landing) should be twice the fence height. There is some adjustment for oxers as the horse needs to jump higher to get the width.

On this principle I generally will walk a course by finding my *landing* spot then stride out from there to the take off spot of the next fence. Easier than math and remembering numbers.

I *think* you are saying the same thing. Remember that in hunter land, stride length stays the same for the entire trip for the winning trip, whereas in eventer land we can do whatever the hell we damn well please to get the job done and leave the rails up. So in hunter land bigger jumps mean a bigger step (keeping the landing and take off the same distance from the center of the jump), where like jumpers we evaluate the type of jump, decide on the step then decide what to do about the next jump, cause it isn't vertical to oxer then around the short side, it can be triple bar to skinny vertical to oxer without a ground line.

I am not sure horizontal measurement of the bascule at twice the height of the fence is accurate. A 3'6" vertical would have a 7' horizontal measurement would mean taking off and landing 3'6" in front/behind the fence, which would be a pretty steep arc. Not sure this is what you actually mean, or perhaps I am not reading correctly. 7' before *and* after...?

Sebastian
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:17 PM
I wish I didn't have to sweep the kitchen floor in order to have my brain kick in.

Don't feel bad. I'm at my most intelligent when vacuuming... :winkgrin:

Seb :)

Janet
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:26 PM
...we (or more actually "me" and the trainers I work with) would say the ideal take off is the same distance in front of a fence and the fence is high then lands the same distance behind the fence. So the horizontal measurement of the bascule (point take off to point of landing) should be twice the fence height.
People SAY that. But they either don't really mean it, or they don't think about what it means.

If it WERE true then (on a 12 foot stride), a one stride in and out at 2'6" would be 17' (12' + 2'6" + 2'6"). But, in reality, a 17 foot combination will only work if you trot in. If you try to do a 17 foot in and out from a 12-foot-stride canter you will have major problems.

Conversely, since a 24' in and out at 2'6" rides perfectly on a 12 foot stride, the sum of (distance from fence to landing spot on the in) and (distance from the takeoff spot to the fence on the out) adds to 12', not 5'.

RugBug
Jun. 30, 2009, 05:45 PM
Conversely, since a 24' in and out at 2'6" rides perfectly on a 12 foot stride, the sum of (distance from fence to landing spot on the in) and (distance from the takeoff spot to the fence on the out) adds to 12', not 5'.

Which is why we typically add 6' for take off and 6' for landing. (although I prefer a 21' one stride at 2'6")

subk
Jun. 30, 2009, 07:05 PM
I *think* you are saying the same thing.
Yes, just coming at it from completely different directions, which is why I thought it was such and interesting comment in the first place. That's why I like to come read over here, makes me think about the same things with a new perspective.


People SAY that. But they either don't really mean it, or they don't think about what it means.

If it WERE true then (on a 12 foot stride), a one stride in and out at 2'6" would be 17' (12' + 2'6" + 2'6"). But, in reality, a 17 foot combination will only work if you trot in. If you try to do a 17 foot in and out from a 12-foot-stride canter you will have major problems.

Conversely, since a 24' in and out at 2'6" rides perfectly on a 12 foot stride, the sum of (distance from fence to landing spot on the in) and (distance from the takeoff spot to the fence on the out) adds to 12', not 5'.

Actually when you put a 24' in and out at 2'6" it makes for a dang long distance. Stick it in a BN division and there will be a lot of puke...

But, yes you are right trying to make the height of the fence equate to the take off point for 2'6" fence doesn't work perfectly, but then there isn't a horse that jumps in a perfect half circle bascule either--it's a theory of perfection and as such doesn't exist in the real world, but as a theory can be extremely helpful in reality. The reality of 2'6" is that the horse doesn't use the full 1/2 circle of the bascule--he only needs the top part of it because the effort is so insignificant. What works about the theory is that once you understand how different efforts effect the shape of the "ideal bascule" understanding where a horse *lands* (or in theory *should* land) is more beneficial in calculating strides/distances than just basing it on a set stride length. (--understandably not more beneficial for hunters, but for eventers and jumpers)

And honestly, as an eventer I don't spend much time jumping courses at 2'6". If what I'm riding is that green we're spending the vast majority of our time in grids. So for me "reality" isn't 2'6".

Alterrain
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:26 PM
At the oaks this spring I was at the in-gate during the 4' hunters, and one rider was reading the course, she was like "single, seven, oxer, 143- thats a ten..."

I was like :eek::eek::eek::eek:

I am such a weenie!! I was thinking 13 hee hee

Gry2Yng
Jun. 30, 2009, 08:33 PM
Actually when you put a 24' in and out at 2'6" it makes for a dang long distance. Stick it in a BN division and there will be a lot of puke...
.

You are dead right, sad thing is that you see it ALL the time and *for some reason* the CD can't figure out why everyone is puking cause all the prelim riders did just fine. I don't think a one stride is permitted at BN. Tho I have seen it and because the rules require the minimum distance between two obstacles to be 23'6", puking is called for in the rules.

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 09:50 AM
*giggle* 1 strides in hunter land? 3' is 25'6 and 26' for 3'6 and I've had those come up awful fast if they are at the end of the last line coming home! But while the jumper riders in the barn don't mind the rest of the striding, I know they aren't fond of our in and outs. ;)

Eventer Person did have a 1 stride set up in the ring one day when she first moved in and it was maybe 3'0 in and 3'3 out and it looked a little tight by eyeballing it, so I cantered quietly through it. Uh, clearly it was set at 24' and I was a fool for not walking it first (last time I made that mistake!) Let's just say the "out" came up very quickly and I wasn't even close to a solid hunter pace! It's not a bad exercise, just one you should probably be prepared for!

Gry2Yng
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:02 AM
Eventers are best at picking to the base and chipping in which makes 24' very difficult for a beginner. Also, beginner novice (BN) level is 2'6", so even without the choke and chip, it is a lot for that group. You see two strides in a 24' line at the lower levels A LOT! Establishing the canter and riding forward with your leg on and hands down does not get a lot of practice. I will also tell you that as you move up the levels, I have seen riders bounce their horses thru the same distance.

As a PP said, at 2'6", I set my one strides to 21' at home. I generally kick things in 3' to 6' at home depending on the horse/rider and the goal for the day.

ETA: I find this a really interesting discussion. Obviously, I ride eventers, jumpers and hunters and sometimes I feel like I have three heads. A thread like this helps me remember why I feel that way. Each discipline puts its own twist on things for its own reasons.

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:47 AM
I admit I almost never set up an in and out at home, because I think a gymnastic is more useful for my needs. A good ol' trot in X 18' to a vertical and 21' to an oxer works for me in most cases. But at home things tend to be moved in to 12' step for the old campaigner or tighter if the horse is green and the fences are small. My biggest problem was getting my eye geared to an "A" step when we were getting ready to show, but I found that riding at more pace to a few singles got my eye back in "focus".

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:08 AM
Quite apart from the difference between a 2'6" one stride at 24' vs 21' (which I think is really related to whether you are using a true 12 ft canter stride- which most BN eventers are not), I think that we can all agree that a 17 ft distance is NOT going to work out of any kind of forward canter.

As an aside, BECAUSE the BN riders are often not forward enough for a 12 ft stride, a 1 stride combination is not permitted at BN.

Portia
Jul. 1, 2009, 11:12 AM
Eventer Person did have a 1 stride set up in the ring one day when she first moved in and it was maybe 3'0 in and 3'3 out and it looked a little tight by eyeballing it, so I cantered quietly through it. Uh, clearly it was set at 24' and I was a fool for not walking it first (last time I made that mistake!) Let's just say the "out" came up very quickly and I wasn't even close to a solid hunter pace! It's not a bad exercise, just one you should probably be prepared for!

Oye. I did one of those a while back, when a beginner lesson teacher at the barn had (unknown to us) ventured over from her ring to our ring and changed the distances on some lines. I came to school on my own and could not for the life of me figure out why we were getting ready to crash and burn on lines that the day before we had been cruising through no problem. Then I walked them and realized that not only had she shortened them, she had set them all on the off stride. And not consistently. Which, if she had done it knowingly and let the world know, might have been OK -- I was riding my old been there, done that jumper and he could adjust. But she was teaching beginners and it was so all over the map that there's no way it was intentional. (She's no longer at the barn).

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:16 PM
Quite apart from the difference between a 2'6" one stride at 24' vs 21' (which I think is really related to whether you are using a true 12 ft canter stride- which most BN eventers are not), I think that we can all agree that a 17 ft distance is NOT going to work out of any kind of forward canter.

As an aside, BECAUSE the BN riders are often not forward enough for a 12 ft stride, many course designers prefer to use a 2 stride in and out, rather than a 1 stride in and out at BN.

I would think BN is close to baby green and pre adults, where the rule of thumb applied is NO combinations allowed. That's a pretty good rule that works out well for all concerned and takes into account the skill level of most parties involved, the height of the fence and the problems with an in and out at that height. I think even in jumpers you can do plenty of stuff that challenges their abilities without adding a combination. A three to a three finishes off most people without even trying. <BEG>

Yeah, Portia, E/L has a trainer come in who is forever setting up strangely bizarre stuff, and the rule of thumb is to always walk and correct his stuff before you ride it. You can't even blame "eventers" if that was your particular delusion since he fancies himself a "jumper" trainer who "trained with George Morris". If I had a nickel for every person without even half a clue who claimed to ride with GM...

RugBug
Jul. 1, 2009, 12:57 PM
I would think BN is close to baby green and pre adults, where the rule of thumb applied is NO combinations allowed.

You'll often see a 2 stride in BN, from what I've seen.

I actually had to do a funky jump angled about two strides off the rail, 6 strides to a 2 stride. The first jump backed everyone off as the propensity was to turn to early and biff it and then you had to gun for the 2. ...'course I managed to do that just fine (thanks to mrs. trainer) have problems elsewhere on course. :lol:

Midge
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:07 PM
At the oaks this spring I was at the in-gate during the 4' hunters, and one rider was reading the course, she was like "single, seven, oxer, 143- thats a ten..."

I was like :eek::eek::eek::eek:

I am such a weenie!! I was thinking 13 hee hee

144' would be an 11 set on 12 feet. One foot less than that and at four feet, it's an easy ten. That long of a line and galloping, someone will do it in nine.

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:18 PM
You'll often see a 2 stride in BN, from what I've seen.

I actually had to do a funky jump angled about two strides off the rail, 6 strides to a 2 stride. The first jump backed everyone off as the propensity was to turn to early and biff it and then you had to gun for the 2. ...

That sort of course design would annoy me - I mean you would think BN is ideally composed of green riders or green horses and with a little luck, none who are both. ;) So a class at that level should reinforce the basics, not challenge them and if you had to have a 2 stride, you'd think it would be later in the class when the motors were humming! Oh well, I'm not a course designer, so it's easy enough for me to criticize...

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:35 PM
I would think BN is close to baby green and pre adults, where the rule of thumb applied is NO combinations allowed. That's a pretty good rule that works out well for all concerned and takes into account the skill level of most parties involved, the height of the fence and the problems with an in and out at that height.

Yes, but the rule book SPECICIFICALLY mentions combinations at the BN level.

The jumping course
should be inviting and straightforward and may include one double of two strides. So it isn't required, but it is expected.

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:39 PM
Actually when you put a 24' in and out at 2'6" it makes for a dang long distance. Stick it in a BN division and there will be a lot of puke...
Stick it in BN and you are breaking the rules.

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:39 PM
I wasn't arguing that the rule wasn't there, just that it seemed like a bad idea whether there was a rule or not. :p

Well, maybe not a bad rule, but one that seems out of step with skill level the division calls for, especially given the issues with setting combinations at that small height.

RugBug
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:41 PM
That sort of course design would annoy me - I mean you would think BN is ideally composed of green riders or green horses and with a little luck, none who are both. ;) So a class at that level should reinforce the basics, not challenge them and if you had to have a 2 stride, you'd think it would be later in the class when the motors were humming! Oh well, I'm not a course designer, so it's easy enough for me to criticize...

It was about halfway through. 2-stride was fence 5a-b. The angled jump as an oxer and thankfully my trainer drilled it into me that I had better not turn to it until I was straight. At that point, we had 2 strides to the jump. It worked out for me, but there was some carnage. I had trouble earlier in the course over the out of a 3 stride. :lol:

On another note: I'm skeered to jump anything that wasn't set by someone I know (and trust). IT usually ends up 'interesting' if I ignore my instinct. I recently watched someone who didn't know that the 3 to 2 was set as a long three to a short two make a one stride out of the 2. Those of us who had ridden it in lessons knew it was set that way on purpose, she just assumed it was set out of stride. It was frightening (even more so 'cause I was climbing on the 2 year old for the second time ever right by the arena).

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 01:45 PM
oops my bad, I mistakenly read "first fence" as the first fence, not first fence in the line!

Still, I'll stick with the idea that if it is a bunch of green riders/horses, just like baby greens and pre adults, in and outs should be avoided. Uh, that said, there is no such USEF/USHJA division as baby green and pre-adult, so it's pretty much all left to the course designer's discretion without any formal guidance, but it's a guideline almost universally followed.

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:29 PM
oops my bad, I mistakenly read "first fence" as the first fence, not first fence in the line!

Still, I'll stick with the idea that if it is a bunch of green riders/horses, just like baby greens and pre adults, in and outs should be avoided.

Well, this IS the h/j forum, so maybe not the best place to discuss the vagaries of Eventing BN courses, but since it has come up...

My 4 year old just completed his first event at "Baby Novice", at 2', with no combination.

But when we do our first Beginner Novice at 2'7" (probably this fall) I will EXPECT a 2-stride combination, and I will be disappointed if there isn't one.

That is because one of my FIRST objective on a green eventer is "help him find his fifth leg, so he can deal with whatever distance comes up". As in Lucinda Green's exercise where she deliberately sets (little) skinnies on non-stride distances. For an eventer, "make the round as smooth, even, and consistent as possible" is ONE of the objectives, but not as high a priority as finding a fifth leg.

I expect that, over the summer, I WILL ALSO take him to some local hunter shows, with the objective of working on relaxed, smooth, consistent. But when I take him to a BN HT, I'll be counting on that combination (preferably with distracting "decorations").

I can't speak to the green riders, but that is MY perspective on a green horse.

(PS, Richard Jeffries guidance to Eventing Show Jumping course designers on combinations is to make sure that the combinations are well into the course "No double before 4" is what I remember, but I may be misrememering the precise number. The earliest I have seen a combination is as fence 3.)

DMK
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:36 PM
My 4 year old just completed his first event at "Baby Novice", at 2', with no combination.

But when we do our first Beginner Novice at 2'7" (probably this fall) I will EXPECT a 2-stride combination, and I will be disappointed if there isn't one.OK, if BN truly isn't equivalent to baby greens and pre-adults, then maybe it's not a fair comparison, and since there is a "baby" novice option, that may be the case?

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 02:46 PM
OK, if BN truly isn't equivalent to baby greens and pre-adults, then maybe it's not a fair comparison, and since there is a "baby" novice option, that may be the case?Beginner Novice is the lowest USEF endorsed / USEA recognized division.

"Baby" Novice (and "amoeba", "chicken little", "green as grass", ...) are all unrecognized levels, with no consistent specs.

Gry2Yng
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:13 PM
I would think BN is close to baby green and pre adults, where the rule of thumb applied is NO combinations allowed. That's a pretty good rule that works out well for all concerned and takes into account the skill level of most parties involved, the height of the fence and the problems with an in and out at that height. I think even in jumpers you can do plenty of stuff that challenges their abilities without adding a combination. A three to a three finishes off most people without even trying. <BEG>

Yeah, Portia, E/L has a trainer come in who is forever setting up strangely bizarre stuff, and the rule of thumb is to always walk and correct his stuff before you ride it. You can't even blame "eventers" if that was your particular delusion since he fancies himself a "jumper" trainer who "trained with George Morris". If I had a nickel for every person without even half a clue who claimed to ride with GM...

The other eventers participating in this thread may or may not agree with me, but I will express my opinion with regard.


First - I have seen a one stride at BN more than once. It is against the rules. I have never seen it changed. That is just my experience. I have also seen a double and a triple in the same course at novice many times.

BN eventing doesn't really compare to Baby Green or Pre Adult as generally in Baby G, the horse is green but the rider is not and vice versa in Pre Adult. At the BN level, you find a majority of Green/Green combinations, IME. This is often where people go to try out the sport. Sometimes they have experience in hunter/jumper land, sometimes dressage land, many times they are playing around in their backyard and do not even have help.

I will say this in defense of eventers and the goofy lines we set. I do a lot of my xc schooling in a ring, rather than beat my horses legs on hard ground. I also prefer to school over objects that fall down. That being said, terrain on xc forces many adjustments in the actual distances set between elements, as do the type of elements. Thus, I spend a good amount of time schooling adjustability. So what is in fact the "1/2 stride" might suit the xc exercise I am trying to simulate in the ring. That being said, because this is the life I have come to know, I never jump anything without walking it first. I also never assume the person who came before me can step a three foot stride. Paranoid eventer.

Janet, while I respect that you would like to see a combination for the purpose of training your baby, I wish they were not allowed at BN. Too many bad lessons to big hearted horses for my taste. In the Babies and Pre Adults if you are not ready to do the count, you just add the stride. In a four or five stride line, this is easy to do. In the two stride line allowed by BN, putting in a nice three is a difficult as getting the two. At the BN and N level I am fine if dressage sorts the field and xc and stadium are confidence building. Besides, half the time the poor little BN horse chips in, stuffs three in the two and still has the heart to leave the rails up, so the rider jumps clear and ends up getting rewarded for riding badly.

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 04:36 PM
I have also seen a double and a triple in the same course at novice many times.
WOW. That is REALLY against the rules. If I saw that I would be sending in an official evaluation form.

Janet
Jul. 1, 2009, 10:04 PM
Janet, while I respect that you would like to see a combination for the purpose of training your baby, I wish they were not allowed at BN. Too many bad lessons to big hearted horses for my taste.
I don't see as many problems with the green horses. But watching the green riders try to ride through the 2 stride can be painful. However, if we took the combination out of BN, would we then be looking at the same problems at N (2'11")?

Gry2Yng
Jul. 2, 2009, 12:05 AM
I don't see as many problems with the green horses. But watching the green riders try to ride through the 2 stride can be painful. However, if we took the combination out of BN, would we then be looking at the same problems at N (2'11")?

I agree, green horses don't have a problem in the hands of an experience rider. Sorry if I missed making that point earlier. But I do think it is nice for the green horses that haven't developed the step and it is easier/better to ride them adding strides, even if the rider can make it happen. Using the logic that you have to introduce the question somewhere is like saying we should have a bounce into water at BN because you have to ride it at Intermediate. I think there are a fair number of riders in this area who never move beyond BN. I also think that after an intro, some of those people get some help and are a little more capable at Novice. So, in my mind, introducing the combo is less of a problem at N. Just like the hunters don't do it to their 2'6" horses and riders, I don't think we should do it to ours.

DMK
Jul. 2, 2009, 08:20 AM
well to be fair, since all those 2'6 horse divisions are unrated, it could happen, but at least as far as I've seen, it's followed more often than not. But at 2'11 the distance works a lot better, and wasn't that the core of the discussion?