Making a great trail horse??

[Shadow14]

It has been boring around here lately and I thought I would stir the pot.:D
I MAKE GOOD TRAIL HORSES. But it comes with alot of hard work and risky at times, but I have faith. I carefully pick a boy, never a girl and then work extremely hard to create the kind of horse I want.
That involves picking training areas, routes and obsticles. I take advantage of any construction in the area and if a bull dozer is working I am right there beside it making my boy stand quietly or ride between or up to any that are sitting aroun. I ride roads from day one, lots and lots of roads, cars, trucks, heavy trucks and tractors, anything the road can throw at him. At least 4 times a week 8-10 mile jogs along the highways.
A large milk operation is about 1 mile away and I spend alot of time in their dairy barns, around the tractor, letting the cows sniff him and he them.
In gravel pits getting him to handle the steep drop offs, the straight up climbs, 3 foot jump ups and downs, deep sand slides, anything to do with rough terrain.
A railroad track is about a mile away and if anywhere near it and I hear the whistle we jog quickly to the side of the track and stand close and watch the train go bye.
A heavy truck construction hard where they make the specialty trucks, ride throught the yard with the welders going, the air guns, the crane lifting the trailers onto the new truck chassies.
Today it was raining heavy so we did our usualy 8-10 mile road run and he got splashed alot, jogged through water running down the shoulder and lots and lots of water filled ditches. Whenever I saw a ditch running deep we crossed it back and forth.
A vaccant parking lot yield cement curbs so we can practice side passing over them.
Wednesday he starts the trailering into town. He learns to load and unload 8-10 times a week, learns to tie to the trailer in a busy maul, learns to be tacked up their and then ride along the grass bulovards?, the hicking trails through the walking trails, crossing wooden pedestian bridges, the busy parks, standing in a nice running river and getting cooled off with a small bucket and walking over a 30 inch concrete dame about 12 feet in the air.
Standing at busy intersections waiting for the cross walk to give us right of way, having busses pull up right in your face and having the doors open with a rush of air. The whole confussion of a big busy city.
Give him 2 weeks and it will be routine for him.
He has no choice, none is given and he will do everything well.
He accepts anything, is totally brave, never refusses to move forward anymore. Remember my fight with the water hole last fall?? It was our big fight over control and he lost and has never honestly refused anything since. Do something once and he has it to memory.
A boat for sale in a field caught his attention today and anything anything that catches his attention is to ride over and have a good close look, touch actually.
Garbage day is another great time to ride among the garbage pails and blue boxes. All great training to make the perfect trail horse.
I seem to find something new each and every ride, we do practice backing, sidepassing to scary things and circling each and every time we go out.
All it takes is hard work, imagination and a no nonesence approach.
Try it my way and you might end up with a better horse.
Now flame away:lol::lol:

[Shadow14]

A few things I forgot. I use the long straight aways to teach leads and lead changes. I pick the horrizon, pick up a lope and don't let off until I arrive there switching leads every 1/2 mile or so. Flying changes if you have schooled that.
Second I never never let him go from a walk to a trot to a canter/lope. It is walk or stand still to a lope in one stride or lope to walk or hault, no trotting allowed inbetween. If I call for a trot I can increase the speed without fear of breaking into a lope and if loping I can stall as slow as I want without fear of trotting. These are strick rules and there are no acceptions.

[Beverley]

Whatever. There are plenty of people in these parts who make good trail horses and don't see a need to brag about it.:cool: If it works for you, great, but not everyone wants a horse made the way you make 'em.

There are also a number of good techniques to achieve the same goal.

And what a fine little trail horse my 4 yo mare is turning out to be.;) Could become a worthy successor to the mare I owned from 1966 to 1995.

[rainechyldes]

Don't know that it requires flaming per se.
all my horses experience the same thing, I agree, garbage day is awesome. Course my one guy has decided he needs to lick all the garbage cans..ewww? Don't know what that is.

Everyone has different methods, but the end goal is the same.

Several years ago, I needed to get across a bridge here in town. It's a narrow (almost 2 lanes barely) type, no walking section, you have to ride in a lane to cross) We sat and waited for there to be no traffic, and then trotted across. Well I was halfway and a fully loaded logging truck came bombing around the corner going WAY too fast as usual, I was like :oh sh^t! I'm going to die!:

I have no where to go here. I prayed. My horse (A mare) just kept on trotting as it zoomed past us. Would I have put myself and my horse in that situation on purpose, hell no. But it was nice to have a horse who was unruffled enough to ignore that big scary truck and not kill us both.

I'm don't necessarily agree with the geldings only thing, but I know many other riders who have the same thing. The gender of a horse isn't as important to me, as personality, courag, and just plain smarts. I like quick, smart horses, that are capable of thinking themselves out of trouble. Over the years I've owned some scatter brained geldings and some truly bold mares, and vice versa.

I do as a whole find mares a bit more finicky to work with - but I've been lucky to own a few spectular mares.

My one mare - omg, even as a baby, never scared of anything, you'd point - she'd go, or die trying. After I retired her from competition, she became my foundation mare for my little endurance breeding operation - and she threw some amazing horses that went on to compete very successfully as well, and had her temperament.

[Shadow14]

Whatever. There are plenty of people in these parts who make good trail horses and don't see a need to brag about it.:cool: If it works for you, great, but not everyone wants a horse made the way you make 'em.

.


Is this forum about sharing information or not?? If I can plant one seed of an idea in someone's head to try then it was worth the trouble.
I would love to read post, informative posts on something to do , some training idea. If you know it all then just skip over my posts. the forum was becoming boring anyway.
Unless you are willing to really work you will never end up with a horse that seems to know it all but given my way of training within 2 years you end up with a very trail smart horse.
A lady owns a very very large high end hunter/dessage barn right next door and a few weeks ago she saw my horse loose eating grass in the ditch with me sitting on the shoulder watch him enjoy the grass in the ditch. She stopped and noticed he was hobbled, she said she has never seen a horse hobbled before and it was interesting. She also said if I ever wanted a job she could use me at her stable, a very nice compliment from this lady.:lol::lol:

[Beverley]

Is this forum about sharing information or not?? If I can plant one seed of an idea in someone's head to try then it was worth the trouble.

Unless you are willing to really work you will never end up with a horse that seems to know it all but given my way of training within 2 years you end up with a very trail smart horse.


Well, Shadow, you certainly do provide the entertainment.

Certainly this forum is about sharing information (seems like you make this post in every thread you start):cool:.

To be blunt- your initiating these threads comes across as not genuinely wishing to share information, but rather, as 'I'm a great horse trainer' braggadocio. And, as in your second sentence above, with you it's not only 'I'm great,' but 'my way or the highway.' Never have I claimed to 'know it all' as you suggest- to the contrary, you are the one that conveys that message about yourself when you start these threads.

As for your planting seeds- well, as we have seen in your posts and threads, sometimes the advice you offer is downright dangerous. So long as people remember the 'caveat emptor' disclaimer (for every poster including me!) I remain hopeful that no harm will be done.

[Sithly]

*Yawn*

Lots of people have similar programs, without the chest-thumping. Not sure what kind of trainwreck you were expecting, but IMO this is pretty basic stuff.

Back when I used to have free time (years ago) I used to do similar things with the horses I rode. Minus the trailering since I didn't own a trailer. And minus the stupidly dangerous things. But I had the same attitude of "find lots of things to do and make them do it." There's nothing wrong with that; it's just good basic horsemanship.

You know what, I made a few damn good trail horses. Proof that when you ride that hard, you don't need to be particularly skilled.

[shalomypony]

Good for all of us with our well made trail horses regardless of how we got them there!!Simply said,good horses are created by good horseman(woman).:)

[Shadow14]

Good for all of us with our well made trail horses regardless of how we got them there
)

That's the whole deal. How do YOU get them there? I posted on how I do it. Now how about YOU telling us how you do it???
It is easy to say we make good trail horses but just how to you go about making one???
I just read a post in horse care on poor ground manners and the recommendations are mainly get a trainer to deal with it. To many rich kids with no real knowledge of their own. That will be the day that I ask someone else to deal with my problem.

Again tell us how you go about creating this good trail horse?

[2boys]

That's the whole deal. How do YOU get them there? I posted on how I do it. Now how about YOU telling us how you do it???
It is easy to say we make good trail horses but just how to you go about making one???
I just read a post in horse care on poor ground manners and the recommendations are mainly get a trainer to deal with it. To many rich kids with no real knowledge of their own. That will be the day that I ask someone else to deal with my problem.

Again tell us how you go about creating this good trail horse?

I must say, I was excited to read this because I am trying to navigate bringing along a young tb. However, I am still unclear as to the "how's" and "why's" of this. I understand that exposure is the golden key to a well-rounded horse. I must say though, if all I had to do was stand him next to a bulldozer, I would begin tomorrow at 8:00 am sharp! It is the nitty-gritty "How to avoid the spins and bolts when the trash truck dumps that bags in?" or "What are the nuances to convey confidence when you aren't feeling it?" that I would like to hear....:D

[Shadow14]

I must say, I was excited to read this because I am trying to navigate bringing along a young tb. However, I am still unclear as to the "how's" and "why's" of this. I understand that exposure is the golden key to a well-rounded horse. I must say though, ifontho all I had to do was stand him next to a bulldozer, I would begin tomorrow at 8:00 am sharp! It is the nitty-gritty "How to avoid the spins and bolts when the trash truck dumps that bags in?" or "What are the nuances to convey confidence when you aren't feeling it?" that I would like to hear....:D

I go through the spooks , the running, bolting, spins, everything everyone else goes through but I stick at it daily for the first month or so. Like the train, I start a couple of hundred feet away and if he is ok with that, which he wasn't, he spun and tried to run but I set him down quickly, turned him towards the train and then started working closer. I go through this for weeks sometimes but I keep doing it. The farm tractors I stand in the yard and work again closer and closer. Sure in the beginning they spooked but I just keep at it. For the cows I got off and lead Rio to the fence, yes he spooked agian but after a few tries he sniffed one nose and the cow snaked his tongue out. It is a matter of keeping at it.
Garbage day just ride down the street past the homes and work at getting him to walk through the garbage cans, blue boxes and bags.
Persistance pays off.

[Shadow14]

Teach side passing early in the training, back also. Side passing is a good way to teach leads down the line. It also allows you to hold the horses hind end in the event of the horse drifting out from an object. I don't beleive in whips, can't handle them either but I do use spurs.
Make your clues sharp and precise, don't give confussing signals. Have them clear in your head and keep your hands soft. I also use a mild curb bit, a curb chain but keep the hands soft until it is necessary to be harsher. Those harsh time comes when the horse bolts, shut him down quickly then back off immediately with again soft hands. Lots of praise but also quick to set him down.
Side passing becomes a daily routine with about 3 practices with each outing. Side passing over an obsticle is a long way from side passing over nothing, alot harder. Backing , controlled backing is very important and the side passing comes in handy to move the hind end.
Patience one cross ties, ground tying etc helps if you teach the horse to hobble first. Contray to most thinking hobbling is easy to teach and within a week a horse can be trained. It really teaches a horse to stand quietly.
Ask anything you want and I will try to answer.

[sunridge1]

It is easy to say we make good trail horses but just how to you go about making one???

Miles and time.

[Shadow14]

Miles and time.

What time frame are we talking about. I say 1 1/2 to 2 years to make a great trail horse, one that accepts everything, traffic, trailering, tying, water, hills, absolutely anything you throw at them. Riding double is also and asset.
Saying miles and time doesn't help anyone doing this. Give examples.

[Sithly]

What time frame are we talking about. I say 1 1/2 to 2 years to make a great trail horse, one that accepts everything, traffic, trailering, tying, water, hills, absolutely anything you throw at them. Riding double is also and asset.
Saying miles and time doesn't help anyone doing this. Give examples.

Wait, I thought one month with you was like a lifetime with any other trainer? :lol:;)

[sunridge1]

Since I hate long posts this will be quick, after long lining, after learning give to the bit, backing, understanding the true meaning of WHOA etc. First lessons under saddle w-t-c in an arena. Then out to the trails everywhere, exposing them to everything possible, streams, logs, bushwack, lakes, campgrounds, parades, walk up to everything they tip an ear to, up steep banks, down steep banks, bridges, sand, rocks, plowed fields, asphalt, gravel, cars, announcers stands, ATV's, bikes, pedestrians, guns, dogs bursting out in front. Two years of April thru October riding will do it easily, if you ride often. More years if not. This is with smart, easily trainable, 3 year old plus, well handled horses raised by me. Me; an aggressive alpha female they trust.

[2boys]

What is everyone's opinions on ages related to trainability? And when you say "often" how frequent do you think?

[Shadow14]

Wait, I thought one month with you was like a lifetime with any other trainer? :lol:;)

In one month a totally unbroken colt will learn to ride well alone in traffic, in the bush, side pass, cross water and back up. No leads, no loping until he has more miles on him. In that month he will become brave and meet alot of the obsticles I already pointed out. In one month he is as good as some horses get in a lifetime. He is ridden in the first day sometimes and sometimes it takes 2 days for me to get on him but within the week he will be running bush alone. I prefer alone to another horse so he can concentrate on me. I have been aboard in as little as 15 minutes when I have a horse delivered and I have the assistance of the owner.
I don't do ground work other then leading, cross tying and saddling. Everything else is learned from aboard. I dont' ever lunge a horse, never. I meet him head on.

And Sithly you say nothing. Are you afraid to give honest advice or tell us how you do things??
I will give honest answers on how I do it.

[Shadow14]

What is everyone's opinions on ages related to trainability? And when you say "often" how frequent do you think?

I feel the younger the better and the arabs thought this also. they thought 1 to 1 1/2 years was a good starting point and 4 years was too late. I feel by 6 you are butting heads with a stubborn horse but I started one stallion at 6 1/2 and it was a 2 year stuggle but he got their.
I prefer 3 1/2 for strength and certainly by 4 if I have a choice.

[Sithly]

And Sithly you say nothing. Are you afraid to give honest advice or tell us how you do things??
I will give honest answers on how I do it.

I already said how I do things in my previous post. Now I am teasing you. It seems only fair, since you came here to "stir the pot." ;)

[Shadow14]

I read one post on how to teach a horse to come when called but it disappeared??
Since my guy is out 24/7 in this warm weather and I grain every night I just go over after supper with my bucket of grain and a few treats in my pocket, this is every night, a routine, not the same time but sometime in the evening.
The horse in a week or two assosiates your coming to the barn with good food and a treat and quickly learns the sound of the car/truck. He learns that when you come you bring his grain and he quickly starts coming. If I get lucky and he lets me get out of the truck and I slip into the barn, dump his grain in his feeder and slip back out to the field. If I am lucky I give a sharp whistle and he quickly learns to come for his grain, he wants to come and I walk to the gate and he knows there is a treat in my pocket and as I am slipping the neck rope around his neck I feed him his treat.
It doesn't take long before this routine is enjoyed by the horse and he just comes. 99% of the time I don't even get to the barn and he is standing there calling for his supper but that 1 % of the time, if he missed me I get to give this sharp whistle and he comes full bore across the field expecting his treat, his being taken in and grained.
I also brush for about 1/2 hour each night after graining, outside at the hitching rail where the sun shines. It is a pleasant time, he loves his brushing and he moves his neck, makes faces and just enjoys the time. this is also a time he wears hobbles, sometimes front, sometimes back and sometimes all four. Hobbles teach a horse to stand perfectly still and not shift or move .
Again hobbling is simple to teachl, about 3 or 4 days with a simple 10 minute session each day until he is wearing them.

[Shadow14]

I already said how I do things in my previous post. Now I am teasing you. It seems only fair, since you came here to "stir the pot." ;)

This isn't about chest thumping. It is honestly trying to give people ideas on how to do things. I am not afraid to give honest answers or tell you how I go about it. A reply is garbage if all you do is give vague answers with nothing concrete that others can relate to.
I don't need the chest thumping but I enjoy teaching others.

[Wayside]

Miles and time.

I think sunridge summed it up pretty well.

And for me, at least, the answer to technique and time frame is, as it often is with horses, "It depends" :lol:

[sunridge1]

I think sunridge summed it up pretty well.

And for me, at least, the answer to technique and time frame is, as it often is with horses, "It depends" :lol:

Exactly! Absolutes NEVER apply to horses.

[sublimequine]

Oh look, Shadow is talking about how awesome he is.

Man, that is some REFRESHING subject matter, to be sure! :yes::yes::yes:

[JollyBadger]

I'm not in the business of training, so I guess I don't view time in the same way as a trainer with a client who wants a trail-ready horse by a certain amount of time. I bought my horse in 2001 as a very green three year old, never having any intentions of re-selling him.

Now, at age eleven, he is a great trail horse for me. I rode mostly hunter/jumper and some dressage for about thirteen years before buying him, so I was not an inexperienced rider. I just had to modify what I'd learned from those years and apply it to riding outside of an arena.

How did I get him to be a "great for me" horse? I started off by finding a horse with a great temperament to begin with, and just added the training on from there. Lots of solo riding, lots of group riding (in lead, side-by-side, middle of the group, and drag). Sometimes going out solo and meeting up with people I know, riding with them for a while, then breaking off from them again. Short rides, half-day rides, full-day (12 hour) rides, early morning rides, post-sunset rides, overnight camping trips, week-long camping trips. . .

We're fortunate enough to board near a busy state park with a horseman's campground and day-parking area, in addition to family camping, a boat ramp, a busy recreational lake, shared hiking/horse trails, cycling trails, playgrounds, primitive campsites along the longer hiking/bridle trails, etc.

There are also dog training fields and corn and soybean fields nearby, rivers and roads to cross, residential areas full of people who have no "horse sense" whatsoever, and a drive-through restaurant. That gives us plenty of exposure to just about anything and everything imaginable.

Summers are hot and humid, spring is chilly and wet and creates very muddy conditions in the heavy clay soil, fall is absolutely gorgeous and dry, winter can be anywhere from mild to cold and snowy/icy. We have gone swimming when the lake back-flooded into a normally-low creek after heavy rains and going back was not an option, and had a 5lb bass jump across my horse's back during one of those swims (you can't "plan" for that kind of training!:D).

We stop to cut branches and clear trail. Sometimes I dismount, sometimes I cut while still mounted and then use his "horsepower" to drag the limb a short distance away before dropping it. I've taken him out on trail "in costume" for Halloween a couple of times; once as pirates (I dressed as a pirate's wench and will never live that one down at the barn!) and once with me as Little Red Riding Hood. My red hooded cape was full length and draped beautifully across his hindquarters at the walk, but it also fanned out and flapped behind us when, on a whim, I cantered him through an open field.

That's how I made him "good for me." I've allowed a couple of friends from the barn to take him out on trail solo, but only because I know they are competent riders and trust that they will take care of my horse before, during and after the ride.

Would I put a less experienced/beginner friend on him? Probably, though I'd ride along on another horse to keep an eye on them. He knows what I expect of him, but one of the things I like most about him is that he is always aware of what is going on around him, and he's a "thinker." I can't say for sure that he wouldn't try to test a new rider if he thought he could get away with it.:winkgrin:

(Sublime: LOVE your siggy quote. . .I have that bumper sticker and keep expecting to find that my car has been "keyed" by a parent of an honor roll student who doesn't see the humor in it)

[Shadow14]

Oh look, Shadow is talking about how awesome he is.

Man, that is some REFRESHING subject matter, to be sure! :yes::yes::yes:

sublimequine go ride another 100 feet down a road and then come back and tell us about what a wonderful experience it was.
Your a kid with no experience outside the barn.

[Shadow14]

I won't allow anyone to ride one of my boys for many years. Every shift of weight, the centering of my hands on his neck, the shift of a leg is a signal to him to do something. I don't want him messed up with people who don't know or do exactly as I do.
Horses take time to learn things right and only an instant to learn something bad. Undoing a bad experience take longer then teaching in the first place so to me letting someone ride on of my guys is not worth it.
Shadow after a 1 1/2 and I was leaving my past place, I let the barn owner take a short ride around the farm yard on him, his first rider other then myself and she only had a few minutes on him but her comment was " he is so light and quick". That is high praise to me.

[mrs.smith]

ok, I'll bite. I really think Shadow is trying to have an honest discussion. :)

I put my horse out there. Tall QH cross that scared the willies out of me over the winter so he had way. too. much. time. off. And he bolts, too. :no: We are now starting over from scratch with my end goal of producing a good trail horse. I have been working him on the lunge line and will start riding him under saddle next week.

What steps would you take to retrain a bolter? Teach the one rein stop? And, just what is a one rein stop anyway?

[Shadow14]

ok, I'll bite. I really think Shadow is trying to have an honest discussion. :)

I put my horse out there. Tall QH cross that scared the willies out of me over the winter so he had way. too. much. time. off. And he bolts, too. :no: We are now starting over from scratch with my end goal of producing a good trail horse. I have been working him on the lunge line and will start riding him under saddle next week.

What steps would you take to retrain a bolter? Teach the one rein stop? And, just what is a one rein stop anyway?

Thank you Mrs Smith and yes I am trying to have a serious discussion on making a good horse.
I am a strong rider so this might not apply to some but I like a running martingale on new horses. Adjusted properly it is not used until the horse tries fighting you. I use a running martingale and a split snaffle bit. The running martingale really increases the severity of the snaffle and I hit him hard and fast if he bolts. If you are weaker and really want to shut him down a more severe western curb and curb chain, remember to use soft soft hands until it is necessary and then hit him with everything you have.
This combination actually makes light horses. Ride loose rein and make all signals light, a lifting of one rein, a taking up of the slack should turn him .
When the time comes and he bolts I use my back muscles and really haul back on him hard and fast and when he stops immediately release all pressure, back to loose rein and soft hands.
I have used this on run aways and usually within one or two hard stops they are cured. The western bits with the shanks give you leverage, multiplies your pull, the curb chain prevents evassion of the bit.
One rein stops allows the horse to get going and then you are circling him. I feel this is too late , I want one of two jumps at most before he is shut down.
I know alot will disagree with this harsh method but it sure makes beleivers out of bad horses.

[SmokenMirrors]

I agree with you Shadow, that I too don't let anyone ride my QH gelding Terry as others don't ride like I do or have the seat I do and many people I see and ride with have heavy hands, always in their horses face or mouth. The one or two times I have let my husband ride I was gritting my teeth as he thinks that being forceful is the way to go...and it isn't, not with my horses.

When Terry shows apprehension or fear of something I let him see it first. If it a bag or something flapping I have rubbed it over him, touching his legs, his neck, face, everywhere till he stops being tense and will stand there calmly. As I do this I talk to him, letting him know that he has to trust me as much as I trust him and usually the sound of my voice does calm him down. I will make as many sounds as I can out of that object till he shows me he is okay with it.

We have had separation anxiety when we first moved to VA so I would take him out, walk in away then come back. Each day it was a little further till he realized that his tantrum was getting him nowhere. If he started to dance and his attention didn't focus on me while we were tacking up he would go on a lunge line and lunge till I got tired of watching him...but he would be asked to do certain things such as slow trot, easy canter, and if he didn't do it then he was pushed forward and kept in his chosen speed till I got tired of it, and I would always look for chewing, lip licking, signs of submission.

Because Terry is already a trained and older horse, he is 17, I try to do what I know to help him become a fantastic trail horse. I have had issues of him jigging while were alone and wanting to trot home, took me a while to work this out of him but this year he is a more willing and supple partner.

Wish I had someone like you to ride with Shadow...most times I ride by myself, I am in english and hunt country so I have had everything from people turning up their nose, to snickering, to asking me what a hackamore is and how do I control him with it.

Any advice is appreciated....

[mrs.smith]

Thank you Mrs Smith and yes I am trying to have a serious discussion on making a good horse.
I am a strong rider so this might not apply to some but I like a running martingale on new horses. Adjusted properly it is not used until the horse tries fighting you. I use a running martingale and a split snaffle bit. The running martingale really increases the severity of the snaffle and I hit him hard and fast if he bolts. If you are weaker and really want to shut him down a more severe western curb and curb chain, remember to use soft soft hands until it is necessary and then hit him with everything you have.
This combination actually makes light horses. Ride loose rein and make all signals light, a lifting of one rein, a taking up of the slack should turn him .
When the time comes and he bolts I use my back muscles and really haul back on him hard and fast and when he stops immediately release all pressure, back to loose rein and soft hands.
I have used this on run aways and usually within one or two hard stops they are cured. The western bits with the shanks give you leverage, multiplies your pull, the curb chain prevents evassion of the bit.
One rein stops allows the horse to get going and then you are circling him. I feel this is too late , I want one of two jumps at most before he is shut down.
I know alot will disagree with this harsh method but it sure makes beleivers out of bad horses.

thank you!

[Shadow14]

Wish I had someone like you to ride with Shadow...most times I ride by myself, I am in english and hunt country so I have had everything from people turning up their nose, to snickering, to asking me what a hackamore is and how do I control him with it.

Any advice is appreciated....

Your best training comes when you are alone. YOu and the horse concentrate on each other and you can take all the time in the world if you want.
It is getting hard to find something that bothers him now but lets say a piece of styrofoam in the ditch bothered him, it doesn't but say it does. I try riding up to it and if he won't move forward I get off, wrap a good hold on the reins and lead him to the stryofoam or at least until I can pick it up, I show it to him, I move it to his side, touch it to him, let him sniff it, again touch the saddle with it, then drop it and let him stand over it. That usually is all he needs and from then on styrofoam is ok. I would repeat this with every single thing that I find that bothers him. If he looks at something, it gets noticed I ride over to it so he has a good look.
I mentioned rain this weekend. The ditches were flooded and I used that day, that oportunity to cross many water crossings and we waded through every one I could find with good footing on both sides . Not jump them but step into the ditch and out the far side. He has no fear of water but the combination of slick sides, running water with grass waving through it just added something new to the mix.
It takes time, it takes imagination and it takes dedication to teaching.

I hate, hate contact, people with constant pull on the reins, constant contact. I like heavy reins, long reins but ride with a great deal of slack in them. My hand must also be centered over the neck and if the hand moves ot one side or the other the horse should turn that direction to recent the hands.

[SmokenMirrors]

My hands are right where you say they should be. I have gotten many compliments on Terry's manners and attitude lately and it sure makes me proud of him and our hard work. When I bought him I had originally thought to do team penning and speed events but turns out he is my trail horse.

We also worked on teaching him he didn't have to keep his head in that peanut pusher look, something that took some time to get him out of.

You are right that I am not one to use harsh measures on my horses nor any others I have ridden. My dad taught me that you need to get into the horses mind and figure out what they are thinking and why they are doing what they are doing. I don't use spurs nor do I use a crop. I have used a dressage whip to teach Terry that crowding my space and stepping on my toes is not warranted nor wanted, but I asked a friend who is a trainer for help and to show me how to correctly fix this behavior. I also know though, if an aid is used correctly that is one thing, but in the wrong hands it can be harsh and cruel.

[Shadow14]

You are right that I am not one to use harsh measures on my horses nor any others I have ridden. My dad taught me that you need to get into the horses mind and figure out what they are thinking .

I have been a trainer all my life. I trained police dogs, movie dogs and competition dogs for 12 years and got my first horse at 12 years of age, I am now 63 and have spent all my life trianing one animal after the other.
I spent hours daily working with them.
I am rougher at times. I will use force but it is about knowing the difference when to use force and when not to. Be light, happy, talk alot to them, they don't understand all the words, some the do but others it is the tone of voice. Keep an uplifted attitude around them.
Back to the rough. If a horse kicks me I knee him back just as quickly. If a horse bits me I strick back just as quickly, if he tries pulling me by the lead rope I jerk him back with quick jerks of the line, no stallion chain over the nose , just a halter and soft lead rope. If he doesn't want to tie he is tied solid and if he wants to fight the tie so be it. I will not back down, but I remain totally in control regardless of the situtation.
Starting a young stallion, an most of my boys are stallions, he is cut the very next day I own him.
I have to go , will continue again

[Thomas_1]

Is this forum about sharing information or not?? If I can plant one seed of an idea in someone's head to try then it was worth the trouble. Fabulous I'm on my way right now to go find a gravel pit a vacant parking lot with heavy construction vehicles and a boat. I'm not too sure if I need the gun now or if that comes as advanced training. What do you think?

A lady owns a very very large high end hunter/dessage barn right next door and a few weeks ago she saw my horse loose eating grass in the ditch with me sitting on the shoulder watch him enjoy the grass in the ditch. She stopped and noticed he was hobbled, she said she has never seen a horse hobbled before and it was interesting. What a coincidence. "Interesting" is a word I tend to misuse too.

I've been training horses to be decent riding horses all my life. It's not rocket science though and it's not really warranting a thread when all you're describing is merely getting them out and getting some miles under them.

[Auventera Two]

For the most part I've been staying off the forum [edit], but, I saw this thread and thought it was a good one and so wanted to comment.

I think Norval brings up good points about horses never really being RIDDEN and WORKED. People ride 40 minutes in a manicured arena and they call it work. I rode 2 1/2 hours yesterday in a state park and at the end of it, my horse was like "Wait, what? We're done?" :confused: Her back was soft and limber, she was completely on the aides, she was cantering down the trail fast and forward. The first hour we just walked and warmed up and enjoyed the scenery. The next 1 1/2 hours we trotted and cantered and worked on a few things, took a couple short breaks to watch the wildlife, etc. She's always asking to go farther and faster.

A lot of the issues that horses have would probably go away if people would ride more (barring physical pain, obviously.) Make sure its a training issue, and then just RIDE. I love the endurance saying - ride.....really ride.

I am a big fan of long, slow warmups. I like to ride for an hour just stretching, bonding, walking, scratching the neck, enjoying the scenery and the wildlife, doing a bit of trot here and there and halt transitions. That's just me, and I find that it makes my horse very soft and doesn't burn her out. She enjoys the slow warmup though most times she doesn't "need" it. If I use the Back on Track sheet, her back is limber and loose when I first get on, but it's more a mental thing. She is such a hot and reactive animal that I want to make sure that she's focused on me 100% and me on her. A year or two ago, I would do ground work before mounting up, but I don't do that anymore now that she's matured.

Norval, you mentioned something about 6 yr old being too late to start a horse because you spend too much time fighting with them (can't remember your exact words.) I think if you have a GOOD horse, with a good mind and work ethic, you don't have this. Andre is a prime example. He ADORES his humans and loves it when I ask him to work. No, he's not really riding yet, but I do a lot of ground work and exposing him to lots of stuff. I don't have to fight with him, and he's not set in his ways or anything. Sure he has some little quirks, what horse doesn't. But overall he is a complete gentlemen and truly loves to tackle challenges.

Mental stability, work ethic, and personality are about 90% of the overall package. A horse with the right brain and desire can overcome most physical challenges, within reason obviously.

I think in general, serious trail and endurance riders really do WORK their horses. Cowboys used to mount up at sunrise, ride till lunch, then ride till sundown, pitch a bedroll next to the camp fire with the horse hobbled in a grassy clearing, then get up the next morning and do it all over again.

One of the differences though is that our modern riding horses can live to be 35, and I think the average hard working ranch horse was probably done by half that age. So we have to decide what's important. Ride super hard and work the crap out of a horse every day, or take it easier and the horse lasts longer. I like the middle ground which is nice hard work, but plenty of rest also. Rest is just as important, or more so than the work. The body recuperates and builds during the rest phase. If I ride my horse for 5 hours on a tough trail today, I'll give her 3 or 4 days off, turned out in the field with her buddies. If I do an easy 2 hour flat trail today, then sure I'll go back and do it again tomorrow if the opportunity is there. Maybe in another couple years when she has even more conditioning on her, I'll do more, but for now I give her as much rest as she gets work.

Making a great trail horse is a combination of the kind of work you do, the duration, but more importantly the mental state of the horse you have.

[Shadow14]

Sorry about that but work called.
I usually buy stallions and cut them the next day or if the seller agrees I cut them there and pick them up in a week
So I am dealing with a stallions attidude and unbroken to boot. From the minute I get them I treat them like a well broken horse, an older horse. I expect perfect obedience and I work towards that from day one. Stand still while tied, offer a foot for cleaning without me trying to struggle with it.
I will give him a chance to kick me and then kick back with the knee, give him a chance to bit and then either my elbow, a brush or whatever , even a quick hand to the lips, no bitting allowed but the oportunity is offered.
Yes I have bruises , bad ones at times but I heal quickly.
I will use force if I feel the time is right but at all times try to keep a good attitude, cheery, bright but tolerate nothing.
I am also quick with the treats.
I also handle an abused case and that is all gentle all the way:lol::lol:
Never have I raised a hand to him

[Shadow14]

I'm not too sure if I need the gun now or if that comes as advanced training. What do you think?

.

Thank you Thomas for your input. I expected nothing less from you. [edit]

[SmokenMirrors]

Let me second that Vickey...you DO have friends here on this board dear one...don't let TMP get you down, hold your head up and roll your eyes. Besides, I don't know a team from a pair so I must be nuts...

Anyway, I am with you. Here in VA many people do not know how or what a trail ride is. Either it is cantering hell bent across a field that you don't know if there are holes or ditches or it is in a nice manicured area. Growing up in the beautiful state of Nevada, I rode in all sorts of terrain with my dad, we had some very good talks while riding, and he took us out for hours, not this hour or what you described. Up steep trails, over rock, through streams, opening gates while mounted, down slippery hills, criss crossing some of the most beautiful mountains I have ever seen.

If you two are ever in VA and want to go riding, your more than welcome at our farm...

[Shadow14]

Norval, you mentioned something about 6 yr old being too late to start a horse because you spend too much time fighting with them (can't remember your exact words.) I think if you have a GOOD horse, with a good mind and work ethic, you don't have this. Andre is a prime example. He ADORES his humans and loves it when I ask him to work. No, he's not really riding yet, but I do a lot of ground work and exposing him to lots of stuff. I don't have to fight with him, and he's not set in his ways or anything. Sure he has some little quirks, what horse doesn't. But overall he is a complete gentlemen and truly loves to tackle challenges.



A2 Strder was a 6 1/2 year old stallion, mean as all get out when I bought him. I went to go in the stall without anything and the owner warned me to at least carry a whip, something to defend myself. I went in unarmed.
I brought him home and tied his head to a post, close, my wife distracted him and I nailed 4 shoes on, it was winter and icey and he got his first set of shoes within an hour of me getting him home.
The next day we headed out in the snow and his life began.
He fought me in everything he did but in the end he became a fantastic horse.
The arabs use to think that 4 years was too late and if you wait that long the horse is too " resistive"" That is the word used to describe an older horse.
The honestly trained them to ride as yearlings and by 18 months said they were not afraid to tire them but they used young boys, light weight boys.
I too have trained yearlings to ride but I was very young and my father just put us on the yearlings and we rode them. Never seems to hurt them, again I was small and very light weight.
I am not recommending this, just repeating what I read and what I did as a kid.
I like them 3 or so but being 193 pounds I worry about my weight but love the age to train. As 4 year olds , stronger in limb I like them better. I will not spend alot of time at a lope with 4 year olds.
Strider at 23 spent all his time at a lope, no warm ups, just lope from the end of the lane for the entire ride.. He wasted no energy

[rainechyldes]

I think there is a valid difference yes - between what some people consider a ride on the trail, and others do. And thats ok. when I ride my h/j - my horse's trail rides consisted of mainly a lung opener along the trails around the property that's about it. I don't require him to be able to deal with all the obstacles that my endurance horses do. It isn't necessary to his career.

My endurance horses well.. thats a whole nother story.
They go for hours and hours and miles. Do they of course have a way better mind/attitude on trails, well of course - it stands to reason - thats where their 'job' is.

so I don't think it's entirely fair to put down riders whose horses just amble for a little while along the trail if that's not their horses main purpose.
Of course I also get well 'endurance horses aren't real athletes' posh, which I ignore and just smile serenely.

I have nothing to prove to the fancy riders when they happen upon my sweat covered horses hauling ass along the trail, with his rider looking like something that came out of a blender:)

I do agree- most our horses don't get a second rider until their second year under saddle, and then it's usually just my kids, who are very bright/brave little riders, who 'get' endurance horses, as they've ridden all their lives, and ride exactly the same way as I do.
After that, I will start putting other people on them, horses do need different 'rider' experiences as well as people need different horses experiences.

Usually the only horses on my farm that are never ridden by anyone but myself are my personal endurance horses. (I usually have 2 going that are mine mine mine! no share!:))

If I have the horse early enough, I will start them at 3, and then put them out for the winter. Bring them in at 4, and then they go into daily work from there. I've started older horses as well, I started a 12 year old this spring for a neighbor (she was a piece of work- older horses can be more set in their ways - she was convinced she was the boss, and no way was I getting on her back- she lost:)

The one nice thing about starting an older horse though, is they can go straight into hard work - said 12 yr old was started in April, and is already happily packing her 6ft3 owner all over the mountains like a star.

[wateryglen]

I'm insecure and just keep wondering if I'm a wing-nut.....:cry::winkgrin::D:lol::lol:

Shadow, your writing & training methods seem a tad strong to me both physically & mentally. Mind you...I'm no parelli-freak but I think you have to taylor the training to the horses personality & type. Some horses need a less pressured/less strong approach or they freak & the learning is blocked and fear is created. I have one I'm trail training slower as she gets overwhelmed, hot, and scared. Another that's an alpha mare, hard headed, stubborn and doesn't listen. Definitely, you need strong aids & direct messages to gain compliance.

I also think that often times men train differently than women. Both have their merits. I also think the time frames for making a good trail horse is varied by the kind/age/breed etc of both the horse AND THE RIDER! We can't all be superman! Some of us are old ladies or weaklings or scaredy-cats and we set our timetables by what WE can handle!! Thats another reality that you need to keep in mind.

I think you could write a book with your experiences. Lots of trainers have. Some of your ideas are great. Many of us just don't have the imagination or opportunities that you do. There is NO heavy equipment or trains round here!! Just tractors & such. We all try to make our trail horses with what we have. Some don't have much where they board. The "trail" is an easement around the farm rather than a ride thru the rockies! We all do with what we have.

Just curious tho'....shadow, how many trail horses have you made? How many do you own now? ditto for you auventera?
I think a truly successful trail trainer has done it many times over. Not with just the horse they currently have. One horse can make you look good. Many horses are a truer test. Many at the same time is divine!!!
And very hard!!! I call them "One Horse Wonders". I am humbled when I have 3 going at the same time. And exhausted. Wish I could do the "Shadow 14 Plan" on just one for crying out loud! How do the professionals do it!!! Yikes!

[goeslikestink]

Well, Shadow, you certainly do provide the entertainment.

Certainly this forum is about sharing information (seems like you make this post in every thread you start):cool:.

To be blunt- your initiating these threads comes across as not genuinely wishing to share information, but rather, as 'I'm a great horse trainer' braggadocio. And, as in your second sentence above, with you it's not only 'I'm great,' but 'my way or the highway.' Never have I claimed to 'know it all' as you suggest- to the contrary, you are the one that conveys that message about yourself when you start these threads.

As for your planting seeds- well, as we have seen in your posts and threads, sometimes the advice you offer is downright dangerous. So long as people remember the 'caveat emptor' disclaimer (for every poster including me!) I remain hopeful that no harm will be done.


ooh well said couldnt agree more

[cloudyandcallie]

I've always bought mine already "made" so I didn't train them.:lol:
First 2 I had as a child and an adult I rode all over, 10 or more miles a day all thru woods and the boy scout camp and thru Bethesda (oldest orphanage in the united states and then a dairy cow farm) and thru the gun club and to downtown. Those two horses were great. I assume that is what you mean by trail riding? Plus we had a drill team for shows and rodeos. No problems with cows, cars, trucks, etc., and the one motorcyclist who always deliberately made his bike backfire when he came by us. Those 2 horses were so great and whomever trained them in SC were great horse trainers.

My 2 "ring" horses and I moved from a commercial barn, where crowds and people and tractors and trucks and rigs were the norm, plus the gun club (lots of shooting) and the airbase (lots of plane and helicopters flying over, low and circling to observe us) to several barns with lots of deer and wild hogs and gators and insolent foxes who came right up to us and scratched fleas before moving and dump trucks (big sand company on the 800 acres so dump trucks rolling in and out every day but Sunday) and stallions (who turned their heads awaywhen my 2 went by:confused:) and none of this bothered either my ottb mare or my WB. I don't think my mare or my WB had seen gators before but they had no fear of them.

However, the attack squirrels and the killer frogs in the woods still bother my WB.:lol:

[katarine]

how to make a great trail horse?

miles and time and varied experiences and tailoring my requests thoughtfully in order to meet or slightly exceed what they currently know, and doing that 'exceeding' in a way they want to try to figure out what I want, and dispassionately correcting them if they say no I won't. Supporting them with a smile and a good word if they say OK I'll try is this it?

Repeat til done.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=wateryglen;4197120]

Just curious tho'....shadow, how many trail horses have you made? How many do you own now?
QUOTE]

I only own one. I board, I do not want my own place. I would rather pay. It cost me about $4000 per year to keep one.
I have been training horses 51 years this summer.
I have made about 12 horses. I ALWAYS start with something unbroken, I have never bought a trained horse, well one off the track but moved it on in a few months.
I have also done very well in the dog world as a trainer.
I do not see how anyone can honestly take on more then one horse at a time. I honestly ride at least 4 times a week minimum and spend one hour minimum each and every day with him on the ground.
I do take on problems anytime I run into one if the owner wants a fix. If someone has a runaway, a bucker, a barn sour horse I will take him on because it doesn't involve alot of my time. Other then breaking a large draft to saddle I never turn anyone down who needs an initial rider. I will climb on almost anything except that draft.:lol:
At one time I worked at a rental stable breaking the sour horses that were riders but renters spoiled. I did this sunday mornings.
I am 63 but in great sharp. I did shoing for 23 years as a part time job.

[citydog]

I have been a trainer all my life. I trained police dogs, movie dogs and competition dogs for 12 years

Interesting how this gets more and more elaborate each time you trot it out. As I recall, your earlier claims on this board of having "dominated" the obedience world ultimately showed you had only *one* verifiable competition dog. One. A couple of titles on one dog isn't "dominating".

I have been training horses 51 years this summer.
I have made about 12 horses.

:lol::lol::lol:

A legend in your own mind...

[cloudyandcallie]

I'm wondering if this is the training method we should use with men?

(and spare the horses)

[Shadow14]

Interesting how this gets more and more elaborate each time you trot it out. As I recall, your earlier claims on this board of having "dominated" the obedience world ultimately showed you had only *one* verifiable competition dog. One. A couple of titles on one dog isn't "dominating".


...



MY dad bought me 2 yearlings when I was 12. He guided me but it was up to me to break them. They were yearlings, just barely and he held them until I could control them and then I was on my own. I am 63 now so do the math. I have owned horses all my life, started every one except the short lived TB. So again do the math. 63 -12 = 51
In the 70's I showed dogs, a single dog which won nearly every obedience trial I enter. I was critized for getting lucky so I bought a puppy named Lance and started over. He got 13 titles, appeared on TV a number of times on specials and was used by a number of movie companies with me behind the scene. He won nearly every single event he competed in including Schutzhund where he got a 3rd degree level, the highest you could get, all tracking degrees, all obedience degrees and some you never heard of. He did an average of 2 shows a week for the public and was featured for a week at a large shortsman show.. I would say he was very very successful.
He also worked with the police and was credited with a few arrest with his tracking ability. He deserves to be called great.

So what is the problem?? A legend in my own mind?? He was a well known champion in the dog world.

What have you done?

[Shadow14]

This is me, age about 14 or 15 on my 3rd yearling that I trained. He is obviously older then 1 but probably 2 here. My dad bought him for $89 because he didn't have a halter included so $1 was taken off his price. He was brought home on a flat bed trailer with no sides??
I trained him and in a year or two got to sell him for the price of a brand new car. I was 16 and got to go in and order a new car and pay for it from him. He became a show jumper for the daughter of the guy who owned Cambell's soup. In those days we jumped 2 year olds and he could really jump.
Notice he is barefoot:D
My boy Blaze
http://i39.tinypic.com/6fsevs.jpg

[shalomypony]

That's the whole deal. How do YOU get them there? I posted on how I do it. Now how about YOU telling us how you do it???
It is easy to say we make good trail horses but just how to you go about making one???
I just read a post in horse care on poor ground manners and the recommendations are mainly get a trainer to deal with it. To many rich kids with no real knowledge of their own. That will be the day that I ask someone else to deal with my problem.

Again tell us how you go about creating this good trail horse?

I'm just trying to be pragmatic here...I do pretty much the same thing you do,almost to a tee.I've been working with my boy for four yrs and I think you never stop working .He was a real case when I got him and after a yr and a half we were a good team.....now we're like one.No money on earth could buy him.I do have a lot of time to spend with my boy,but I think others don't have the good fortune of lots of free time..........so.....as I said good horseman make good horses and there are many good ways to get there,not just our very similar methods.

[Kristiesunny]

Originally Posted by Beverley
Well, Shadow, you certainly do provide the entertainment.

Certainly this forum is about sharing information (seems like you make this post in every thread you start).

To be blunt- your initiating these threads comes across as not genuinely wishing to share information, but rather, as 'I'm a great horse trainer' braggadocio. And, as in your second sentence above, with you it's not only 'I'm great,' but 'my way or the highway.' Never have I claimed to 'know it all' as you suggest- to the contrary, you are the one that conveys that message about yourself when you start these threads.

As for your planting seeds- well, as we have seen in your posts and threads, sometimes the advice you offer is downright dangerous. So long as people remember the 'caveat emptor' disclaimer (for every poster including me!) I remain hopeful that no harm will be done.

ooh well said couldnt agree more


Well said both Bev and GLS!

[shalomypony]

Your best training comes when you are alone. YOu and the horse concentrate on each other and you can take all the time in the world if you want.
It is getting hard to find something that bothers him now but lets say a piece of styrofoam in the ditch bothered him, it doesn't but say it does. I try riding up to it and if he won't move forward I get off, wrap a good hold on the reins and lead him to the stryofoam or at least until I can pick it up, I show it to him, I move it to his side, touch it to him, let him sniff it, again touch the saddle with it, then drop it and let him stand over it. That usually is all he needs and from then on styrofoam is ok. I would repeat this with every single thing that I find that bothers him. If he looks at something, it gets noticed I ride over to it so he has a good look.
I mentioned rain this weekend. The ditches were flooded and I used that day, that oportunity to cross many water crossings and we waded through every one I could find with good footing on both sides . Not jump them but step into the ditch and out the far side. He has no fear of water but the combination of slick sides, running water with grass waving through it just added something new to the mix.
It takes time, it takes imagination and it takes dedication to teaching.

I hate, hate contact, people with constant pull on the reins, constant contact. I like heavy reins, long reins but ride with a great deal of slack in them. My hand must also be centered over the neck and if the hand moves ot one side or the other the horse should turn that direction to recent the hands.

I bought the most amazing heavy reins in Albequerque a few yrs back.They are one inch with doubled leather on the last foot,and they're super long and very well balanced in the hand.Dan's is where I picked them up....45 bucks.I like you ride with a huge loop in the reins at all times....my butt is the brake and a breath one way or another with the hand is all it takes. to turn..........awesome isn't it.....?:):)

[Shadow14]

I bought the most amazing heavy reins in Albequerque a few yrs back.They are one inch with doubled leather on the last foot,and they're super long and very well balanced in the hand.Dan's is where I picked them up....45 bucks.I like you ride with a huge loop in the reins at all times....my butt is the brake and a breath one way or another with the hand is all it takes. to turn..........awesome isn't it.....?:):)

That is the beauty of heavy reins. Their own weight is the cue to the horse to turn or stop. Just shift the weight and the horse feels it and responds. Also if you get dumped you have a good hold or at least the horse steps on a rein and hopefully stops.
I love long heavy reins.

[Moderator 1]

Though the OP's first posts were a bit on the dictatorial side, he's since clarified that he's interested in generating a discussion to share information. If you're not interested in engaging in that discussion, pass it by, but let's avoid the sniping comments back and forth.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Shadow14]

Though the OP's first posts were a bit on the dictatorial side, he's since clarified that he's interested in generating a discussion to share information. If you're not interested in engaging in that discussion, pass it by, but let's avoid the sniping comments back and forth.

Thanks,
Mod 1

From the PM you just sent me advising me on how I should tone my post why don't you just pull this one??
Better yet why don't you just ban me?? After all I don't think like the normal poster.

I don't really give a dam

[JSwan]

Wish I had someone like you to ride with Shadow...most times I ride by myself, I am in english and hunt country so I have had everything from people turning up their nose, to snickering, to asking me what a hackamore is and how do I control him with it.

Any advice is appreciated....

[edit]

You live just a few miles from me and there are hundreds of people that ride western, do nothing but trail ride, and there are plenty of folks that use hackamores. There are cutting and reining clinics, trail riding clubs - you are SMACK DAB in the middle of some of the best horse country on the east coast.

I have NEVER encountered a local horseman who didn't know what a hackamore was.

Not buying it. If you're riding alone all the time you can hardly be encountering a lot of folks snickering at you - especially considering where you live. You aren't exactly in Middleburg - but even if you were folks there use hackamores too. ;)

[sketcher]

T If you are weaker and really want to shut him down a more severe western curb and curb chain, remember to use soft soft hands until it is necessary and then hit him with everything you have.


Nice. I guess in the TWELVE horses that made you an expert you've never ridden a horse that has learned to tuck their chin to their chest and still manage to take off while evading hands like yours. Surprising you didn't run into one or two of those at least when you were working with the soured hack horses - real soured horses won't give a crap how light your hands are and how hard you yank on them, especially since for many of them you aren't the first yahoo to try and 'straighten' them out.

[Huntertwo]

*Yawn*

Lots of people have similar programs, without the chest-thumping. Not sure what kind of trainwreck you were expecting, but IMO this is pretty basic stuff.

Back when I used to have free time (years ago) I used to do similar things with the horses I rode. Minus the trailering since I didn't own a trailer. And minus the stupidly dangerous things. But I had the same attitude of "find lots of things to do and make them do it." There's nothing wrong with that; it's just good basic horsemanship.

You know what, I made a few damn good trail horses. Proof that when you ride that hard, you don't need to be particularly skilled.

:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy: I was thinking the same thing. Shadow it's boring already, okay?
Yes, you can do this, your horse can do that, your way is the best and only way.
Tell me, do you ever tired posting how you're the greatest trail horse trainer out there?

Most of us on this forum have damn good trail horses, mine included. But I don't need to preach to everyone day in and day out how I trained mine.

Oh, and she is a mare.

[SmokenMirrors]

[edit]

You live just a few miles from me and there are hundreds of people that ride western, do nothing but trail ride, and there are plenty of folks that use hackamores. There are cutting and reining clinics, trail riding clubs - you are SMACK DAB in the middle of some of the best horse country on the east coast.

I have NEVER encountered a local horseman who didn't know what a hackamore was.

Not buying it. If you're riding alone all the time you can hardly be encountering a lot of folks snickering at you - especially considering where you live. You aren't exactly in Middleburg - but even if you were folks there use hackamores too. ;)

Ah dear, no there IS NOT hundreds of people that ride western around here, in fact, if you wish to drive over to the farm and I can call my friends from down the road, one who rides english and has all her life as well as our newest neighbor who does ride western, you can talk to them both. Better yet, I can call a few others who back up my statement that they cannot find many people who ride western and are treated less than stellar by the english crowd. There are MORE english riders than there are western and they are harder to find or they are heavy into showing and their horses do not see a trail.

As for trail riding, their version of trail riding and mine are totally different. Other than a very few that I know, many don't know what the true meaning of trail ride is other than GO GO GO!!

I am only saying what those around here have said, if where you are, are a bit more knowledgeable, good for them. I only put what was said to me when I first started riding around here, if you don't wish to believe it that is your choice.

[JSwan]

I started riding Western in the 70's. Here.

And who is this "english" crowd? Hunters? Jumpers? Dressage? Eventers? Polo players? Trail riders? Who, exactly? Hmmm - there are loads of local shows offering western and english classes, multi-discipline riding clubs, trail riders, people who farm with their mules or horses, hunt with them - I hunt with a lady that hunts with her cutting horse, folks do all sorts of things with their horses - with or without hackamores. English style riding is more common but western disciplines are most certainly QUITE popular and growing in popularity.

I've never seen folks trail riding in a "go go go" manner. Trail riding is trail riding. Most folks walk, jog/trot with maybe a little canter. It's fun.

Yes - please give me the phone numbers. I'd be interested in knowing who all these ignorant people are.

[MistyBlue]

I wouldn't really call 12 horses in 51 years a record breaker. HunterTwo rode and worked at the same barn I did in our more youthful years. (were we really youthful then? :lol: )
What did Buddy expect our average trail horse training to be each year? When I was there it was between 8-14 new trail horses from semi-nuts to public trail string every single year. We had from Feb/March to late May/early June. OTTBs from track to shows in 3-4 months. Each of us got 1-4 horses to train/work with. Geez, after years of working there alone we each must have a few dozen under our belts, huh? :winkgrin: And those didn't include the ones we bought ourselves with saved money and flipped each year for show and tack money. We were in our teens then too. :yes:

[SmokenMirrors]

I started riding Western in the 70's. Here.

And who is this "english" crowd? Hunters? Jumpers? Dressage? Eventers? Polo players? Trail riders? Who, exactly? Hmmm - there are loads of local shows offering western and english classes, multi-discipline riding clubs, trail riders, people who farm with their mules or horses, hunt with them - I hunt with a lady that hunts with her cutting horse, folks do all sorts of things with their horses - with or without hackamores. English style riding is more common but western disciplines are most certainly QUITE popular and growing in popularity.

I've never seen folks trail riding in a "go go go" manner. Trail riding is trail riding. Most folks walk, jog/trot with maybe a little canter. It's fun.

Yes - please give me the phone numbers. I'd be interested in knowing who all these ignorant people are.


I don't give out personal phone numbers of people, that is rude. Believe what you want, no skin off my nose. Have a great evening....

[tkhawk]

If you are riding trails-does it make a difference what saddle/type you ride-as long as it is comfortable for you and the horse?
I learnt English, ride a treeless endurance type of saddle. I use a French link and that is pretty much my gear-and my helmet. I have ridden with people with all kinds of set-ups, from full Peruvian saddles to Aussies to roping saddles to dressage-just about every type of combination of saddle/bridle .

I have ridden/camped the mountains, the oceans, the deserts, pine forests up to 8200 ft. Again with every type of rider/horse combo imaginable. The only time I ever came upon people with go go go was when I used to trail ride with a serious endurance rider. But she was not go go go-everything was timed, how many miles, what speed, how much trot, how much canter etc. to the point I got bored!:lol:

As long as I am honest about my abilities and my horse's , I find horsemen to be very, very friendly and helpful-English or Western.Trail riding-it doesn't matter-as long as your horse's speed/gaits are evenly matched.

[Sithly]

I wouldn't really call 12 horses in 51 years a record breaker. HunterTwo rode and worked at the same barn I did in our more youthful years. (were we really youthful then? :lol: )
What did Buddy expect our average trail horse training to be each year? When I was there it was between 8-14 new trail horses from semi-nuts to public trail string every single year. We had from Feb/March to late May/early June. OTTBs from track to shows in 3-4 months. Each of us got 1-4 horses to train/work with. Geez, after years of working there alone we each must have a few dozen under our belts, huh? :winkgrin: And those didn't include the ones we bought ourselves with saved money and flipped each year for show and tack money. We were in our teens then too. :yes:

Hush now, woman. You don't know nothin' 'bout no trail riding. I bet you even rode MARES. *stinkeye*

What you need to do is get to the gym, keep going until you look like this (http://www.strangesports.com/images/content/104546.jpg), then buy yourself a curb bit and some spurs and start riding your horse on the freeway. If you can ride over a cliff or flip him on a steep hill, so much the better.

If (AND ONLY IF) you can survive 51 years of this, maybe THEN I'll call you a trail rider.

[JSwan]

I don't give out personal phone numbers of people, that is rude. Believe what you want, no skin off my nose. Have a great evening....

Um - you offered to put me in contact with people to back up your statement.

I took you up on your offer.

I LIVE near you. There are equine events pretty much year round - western as well as english disciplines. You're not inundated with bluebloods aghast at the sight of Wranglers and a Quarter Horse. :rolleyes:

No one is looking down their noses at western riders - and we all know what a hackamore is.

I boarded my horse at a nice dressage barn that held team penning clinics and events. Never detected any snobbery. Good folks.

You might try to remember that there are a heck of a lot of local horsemen on this BB before uttering such things.

[MistyBlue]

Yup, owned an Appy mare. An evil large pony sized Appy mare...I use her name as my screen name. :winkgrin: :yes: :D
I can try to look like the woman in the photo...but she has a bigger bra size than I do. She has a nicer smile than I do too. :eek: (hold me, I'm scared)

What rider of any discipline doesn't know what a hackamore looks like? They're not uncommon in many disciplines:

http://www3.telus.net/tadpolefarm/Amy-&-Hackamore-small.jpg
Amy Tryon on Poggio:
http://image06.webshots.com/6/8/52/40/163085240lsiffo_ph.jpg

[rainechyldes]

Wasn't asked but uhm.. lesseee..

I've bought one made horse since I was 12.

I hate to do the math but I will *shudder*
I began rehabbing/starting horses at 18.
I just turned 40.

I start usually 3-5 horses a year. plus I also manage to collect a few spoiled horses every year that are on their last chance before Alpo, and turn them around. Of the spoiled ones, I've had one I just couldn't manage to get through to:/

I tried and tried.. he was just so far gone into complete rogue mode, nothing worked that I had in my bag o tricks, so I passed him onto a friend of mine who did after several years manage to get him semi sane enough to be somewhat productive (he ended up keeping him, the owner by this point was in total despair and had washed her hands of him)

I'd say 90% of the horses I start are bound for the endurance circuit these days, so I ride them all out. Plus on top of this, I start my own horses as well.

[SmokenMirrors]

Um - you offered to put me in contact with people to back up your statement.

I took you up on your offer.

I LIVE near you. There are equine events pretty much year round - western as well as english disciplines. You're not inundated with bluebloods aghast at the sight of Wranglers and a Quarter Horse. :rolleyes:

No one is looking down their noses at western riders - and we all know what a hackamore is.

I boarded my horse at a nice dressage barn that held team penning clinics and events. Never detected any snobbery. Good folks.

You might try to remember that there are a heck of a lot of local horsemen on this BB before uttering such things.

And you may want to try to remember to watch your manners as well as word gets around how nasty someone can be. Yes I DID offer, and said come out to my farm and you can MEET them...I never said anything about numbers being given to YOU only that I would call them. And anyone with enough manners won't just give out a phone number to someone they don't know, common courtesy, same as I would expect my friends to not give out my number to some name on a billboard as well.

I don't care what you think or what you may know JSwan, you can think what you want and assume you know it all, that is fine. But I am tired of this your wrong because I did this and on and on....I didn't say ALL english riders were snobbish, just that the ones my friends have come upon were. And yes they WERE english riders who looked down on them, and yet it was HERE in Virginia. Get over yourself already, you don't know everything.

So you boarded at a nice dressage barn where team penners were...so. Good for you.

[JSwan]

I have terrific manners - and I'd encourage you to get out and get to know your new community before making sweeping generalizations and derogatory comments about it. You live in a dynamic, diverse and vibrant equine community that offers plenty of opportunities for sport, competition and pleasure riding.

And you may want to take your own advice, by the way.

And you may want to try to remember to watch your manners as well as word gets around how nasty someone can be.

[SmokenMirrors]

I have terrific manners - and I'd encourage you to get out and get to know your new community before making sweeping generalizations and derogatory comments about it.

And you may want to take your own advice, by the way.

Thank you for that piece of advice...I HAVE gotten out into my community, I do a lot in it as well to educate and kindle the love of equines with youth, volunteer time and my knowledge in my town, and I love Virginia...believe me, I have some phenomenal friends and wouldn't trade where I live with anyone. But...not everyone who rides english is nice, and you find that here, my home state, and I was only stating my personal experiences and those of my friends whom I have talked to. And like you JSwan, I have terrific manners as well.

[Shadow14]

Nice. I guess in the TWELVE horses that made you an expert you've never ridden a horse that has learned to tuck their chin to their chest and still manage to take off while evading hands like yours. Surprising you didn't run into one or two of those at least when you were working with the soured hack horses - real soured horses won't give a crap how light your hands are and how hard you yank on them, especially since for many of them you aren't the first yahoo to try and 'straighten' them out.

I've broken a couple of runaways for other people and tucking the head doesn't evade the bit. Putting the head up so the bit hooks on the teeth works for them but a curb pulls the bit down on the bars.
While I might have only owned 12 or so horses over the years I tend to keep one for a while until he proves unsatisfactory for the discipline I am doing but every one of them was outstanding in the barn.
Problem horses are fun for me, since it gives me a rush getting on them but after the intitial riding I don't usually ride them again.
Again I thought we were talking about how to do something?? Your just mudding the waters and really contribution nothing.

The longest I have kept another persons horse for breaking was a month. I put a couple of hundred miles on that horse before giving him back but I do not consider that a made horse or one I would even count. I have also gone many times to other peoples farm for breaking perposes and then went trail riding with said horse but again none of them count.
The only ones that count are the ones I own and spend years developing.
No way I can see anyone working many horses properly at the same time. There are just not that many hours in the day.

[Shadow14]

I wouldn't really call 12 horses in 51 years a record breaker. HunterTwo rode and worked at the same barn I did in our more youthful years. (were we really youthful then? :lol: )
What did Buddy expect our average trail horse training to be each year? When I was there it was between 8-14 new trail horses from semi-nuts to public trail string every single year. We had from Feb/March to late May/early June. OTTBs from track to shows in 3-4 months. Each of us got 1-4 horses to train/work with. Geez, after years of working there alone we each must have a few dozen under our belts, huh? :winkgrin: And those didn't include the ones we bought ourselves with saved money and flipped each year for show and tack money. We were in our teens then too. :yes:

Does this add anything to the post?? Does this offer advice on how to make a trail horse??? I don't care how many horses you broke as a job, I have climbed on alot of horses for their very first ride and then handed them over to the owner and never touch them again. So what? I make good horses, well trained horses and it take time, short time by most peoples standards, I say 1 1/2 to 2 years and you think that is quick and yet you turn many out in a few months???
No, working daily, daily, riding hard 4 times a week it still takes me that long to produce the horse I want. On the days I am not riding I still work him at something. Even biking down the road with him jogging beside the bike. I have done that dozens of times just for the hell of it.

[SmokenMirrors]

Shadow...I apologize for getting way off topic...

[Huntertwo]

I wouldn't really call 12 horses in 51 years a record breaker. HunterTwo rode and worked at the same barn I did in our more youthful years. (were we really youthful then? :lol: )
What did Buddy expect our average trail horse training to be each year? When I was there it was between 8-14 new trail horses from semi-nuts to public trail string every single year. We had from Feb/March to late May/early June. OTTBs from track to shows in 3-4 months. Each of us got 1-4 horses to train/work with. Geez, after years of working there alone we each must have a few dozen under our belts, huh? :winkgrin: And those didn't include the ones we bought ourselves with saved money and flipped each year for show and tack money. We were in our teens then too. :yes:

Haaaa - Youthful of course. But again that was back in (gulp) the mid to late 1970's :eek:

Oh Misty, you forgot to mention that we used to shoot the horses that didn't come to us..lol

[Huntertwo]

Hush now, woman. You don't know nothin' 'bout no trail riding. I bet you even rode MARES. *stinkeye*

What you need to do is get to the gym, keep going until you look like this (http://www.strangesports.com/images/content/104546.jpg), then buy yourself a curb bit and some spurs and start riding your horse on the freeway. If you can ride over a cliff or flip him on a steep hill, so much the better.

If (AND ONLY IF) you can survive 51 years of this, maybe THEN I'll call you a trail rider.

OMG is that picture real????? :eek: Gross......

[Shadow14]

If you are riding trails-does it make a difference what saddle/type you ride-as long as it is comfortable for you and the horse?
.

Why should the type of saddle make a difference if you and your horse are comfortable with it. To me the only thing I worry about is weight. The new synthetic saddles are very light, 11 pounds and comfortable. While I prefer good leather it just weighs too much. At 193 pounds and riding an arab every pound counts.

[Shadow14]

What you need to do is get to the gym, keep going until you look like this (http://www.strangesports.com/images/content/104546.jpg), then buy yourself a curb bit and some spurs and start riding your horse on the freeway. If you can ride over a cliff or flip him on a steep hill, so much the better.

If (AND ONLY IF) you can survive 51 years of this, maybe THEN I'll call you a trail rider.

Another kid with no education or experience working in a barn.:eek:

[Moderator 1]

Let's all lay off the personal commentary and riffing. Post if you want to discuss the actual topic. If not, don't.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Shadow14]

Let's all lay off the personal commentary and riffing. Post if you want to discuss the actual topic. If not, don't.

Thanks,
Mod 1

If that is directed at me you can stick it. I don't need the insults from little kids with no experience.
AGain just Ban me and be done with it.

[Moderator 1]

OK. For the record, we had no intention of banning shadow14 at this time, instead attempted to discuss better approaches to fostering new discussions on the forum. As his most recent reply and most poster's experiences may indicate, he doesn't seem interested in working toward that goal. As the "all" in my previous post indicated, my post was directed at everyone.

If a poster isn't willing to take feedback, we're not willing to extend the effort in moderating situations that arise surrounding their posts.

Mod 1