Gelding a "stallion prospect"

[EquusMagnificus]

The gelding thread got me thinking. I have a 2009 colt and I was just wondering if I should have him gelded before weaning. He is for sale and it just seems like a nice thing to have it done before he is sold. One less hassle for the buyer.

However, what if he is deemed "stallion prospect" at his inspection? In that case, would you geld him before selling him or try to sell him whole with that new "title"?

Not that I am implying that he is that good (:winkgrin:) but just hypothetically, what would you do in this economy for a colt that is for sale and that you do NOT plan on keeping?

[paintjumper]

but then, I don't like geldings. IF he is a SP, then give the owners-to-be the option of buying and raising a SP or geld him, you know YOU CAN"T PUT THEM BACK!!! Ha Ha!!

[Juniberry]

how about advertising "can be gelded if required"

[kookicat]

how about advertising "can be gelded if required"

:yes:

[EquusMagnificus]

Good idea Juniberry!

Of course, if he isn't identified as a stallion prospect, then I might as well just go ahead and geld him... save myself and the new buyer the hassle of waiting for it to be done! Especially if he isn't sold as a weanling, I have no interest in raising a colt!

[dbaygirl]

but then, I don't like geldings. IF he is a SP, then give the owners-to-be the option of buying and raising a SP or geld him, you know YOU CAN"T PUT THEM BACK!!! Ha Ha!!

DITTO!

Excuse me, but this common perception of colts being fire breathing dragons on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I have asked before "please define bad colt behaviour" with nary a response to a sincere query. I have to wonder if the breeding community has now overbred the docile temperament to the point where the only resulting offspring that present any challenge in horsemanship skills whatsoever are intact colts???

If you are selling this colt anyways, what is a few more months of handling this baby until you find someone else to make the decision. It will broaden the spectrum of buyers. You could offer to geld the colt once sold before he goes to the new home if new buyer wants a gelding?? JMO...

[JoZ]

If I would be appalled that some future owner bred the colt, I would geld him. Otherwise I would probably leave him intact. I do NOT think that the majority of colts should be stallions, or at least not breeding stallions... that's not why I would hold off on the gelding. It is because it is so difficult to assess a suckling or weanling.

I have to admit I have seen some videos of babies at their inspections and I have been incredibly impressed. I don't know what the reason is -- either the fact that I don't have warmbloods, or the fact that my young'uns are not "prepped" in any way for an inspection, etc. -- but I rarely have a weanling that is proportional and coordinated enough to give me a really good idea of his potential.

I generally geld at a year old, but have waited until 2 or 3 with NO handling problems. When I decide "nope, he does not need to reproduce" -- snip snip.

[dbaygirl]

If I would be appalled that some future owner bred the colt, I would geld him. Otherwise I would probably leave him intact. I do NOT think that the majority of colts should be stallions, or at least not breeding stallions... that's not why I would hold off on the gelding. It is because it is so difficult to assess a suckling or weanling.

I have to admit I have seen some videos of babies at their inspections and I have been incredibly impressed. I don't know what the reason is -- either the fact that I don't have warmbloods, or the fact that my young'uns are not "prepped" in any way for an inspection, etc. -- but I rarely have a weanling that is proportional and coordinated enough to give me a really good idea of his potential.

I generally geld at a year old, but have waited until 2 or 3 with NO handling problems. When I decide "nope, he does not need to reproduce" -- snip snip.

I agree with you there, Joz. May I ask, what kind of horses do you breed, if not WB's?

[EquusMagnificus]

Excuse me, but this common perception of colts being fire breathing dragons on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I have asked before "please define bad colt behaviour" with nary a response to a sincere query. I have to wonder if the breeding community has now overbred the docile temperament to the point where the only resulting offspring that present any challenge in horsemanship skills whatsoever are intact colts???

If you are selling this colt anyways, what is a few more months of handling this baby until you find someone else to make the decision. It will broaden the spectrum of buyers. You could offer to geld the colt once sold before he goes to the new home if new buyer wants a gelding?? JMO...

I must answer this : it is not because I think a colt is a fire-breathing dragon. :winkgrin: It is because I only have mares otherwise and it would make for a more complicated management situation, as in turnout arrangements and what-not. I only want to keep mares, not boys! Simple as that! ;)

Most buyers want geldings. I don't see why I would hold off and complicate my life in the meantime when it will most likely end up with a castration appointment...?

I just really think it would be simpler for me and future buyers to buy a young gelding rather then a colt. I would think some buyers would actually be happy that it has already been taken care of! I know I would unless I was in the market for a stallion prospect of course!

[ahf]

dkbaygirl -

ever try to find a boarding stable that will accept a stallion, no matter how well behaved? Ever try to find a boarding stable that has appropriate fencing for a stallion? ever try to find barn help that has handled a stallion before? You can find them in europe, but not in North America.

these are all things the consumer has to deal with. this is not Equus' personal horse. he is for sale.

whether you think so or not, stallions are different from geldings and mares. they need a horseman with tact - that can establish boundaries WITHOUT over-correcting. establishing boundaries is in many cases completely beyond the avaerage amateur no matter what the sex. I know, I've had to handle them afterwards.

As far as bad colt behavior - there is plenty: nipping/biting, stricking, rearing (that seems to be some colts' answer to everythig...go up) and over-vocalization. THen you have "unhappy with being a stallion behavior" which includes self-mutulation, fenceline running, weight loss and general fretting.

Equus, let me ask you this...how many really good trainers do you know in any given discipline? Not many I bet. Now ask yourself what the chances are that your intact colt is going to end up with one of them, be properly socialized and handled, and actually be happy being a stallion.

[JoZ]

I agree with you there, Joz. May I ask, what kind of horses do you breed, if not WB's?

Paints, mostly for Western disciplines

[Oakstable]

In most markets, geld the colts. In this market, absolutely geld the colts.

[EquusMagnificus]

Equus, let me ask you this...how many really good trainers do you know in any given discipline? Not many I bet. Now ask yourself what the chances are that your intact colt is going to end up with one of them, be properly socialized and handled, and actually be happy being a stallion.

And that's why my first choice is to geld him. I was just pondering if my decision was right in the event he was nominated, or any future colt I might breed, as a serious stallion prospect...

[paintjumper]

I have NEVER heard a trainer at the upper levels worry about a stallion in their arsenal. Having owned and shown stallions for 30 years, I'm not saying they are without thought, but the really good ones are worth the "trouble". The OP asked what to do with a stallion prospect, not a gelding prospect. If he needs to be a gelding, then cut him, but not because somebody won't let you board him. If he is worthy of the anatomy, the REAL trainers will throw their hat in the ring to ride him. Like I said before, wait and see what the inspectors think of him and then see how the market is looking. In this low market, if a buyer is there with the money, heck I'd even consider a sex change to get the deal done but what if they are standing there with the money and ONLY want a stallion and you have a cute little gelding hanging on the other end of that lead rope???

[Dressage_Diva333]

Geld him unless he is really that is that rare specimen that deserves to be kept intact. What registry proclaimed him a stallion prospect? I put a lot of credit into foals when AHS or GOV proclaims them stallion prospects, as it is rare. However, I've seen ISR/OLD NA call some colts stallions prospects that really didn't strike me as suitable. Even still, they are just that: "prospects". I've also seem some beautiful foals turn into less than average quality horses, so it all depends.

It's safer to geld a colt young, rather than waiting until they are two or three. He'll be happier being able to live with the other horses without conflict as well.

Many people want geldings, they like geldings. The procedure is done, and the horse can live with other geldings and mare. In this market, what if you still have this colt at 2yrs old, then he starts to realize that there are girls around. Depending on the horse, you may have to raise fences, rearrange horses, etc.. I had an extremly even tempered colt (was intact until almost 3yrs old). He was SO good, but it was a real pain dealing with raising fences, being more careful, and having the other stallion as well. That colt, who was also a "stallion prospect" at his Selle Francais inspection at a year and a half old, was gelded in December of 2008. Best decision I ever made for the horse, and if I could go back and do it again, he would have been gelded much sooner. I have broodmares, and foals. This particuliar colt was SO sweet, wouldn't 'hurt a fly', but he does play rough sometimes. I was afraid that he might somehow get in the with the mares and foals (you never know..), and harm might come to HIM because the mares would be protecting the foals.

Don't get me wrong, I love my stallion. I purchased him as a mature breeding stallion though, and he has excellent manners. Honestly, I do enjoy stallions, but there are very few whose brains can actually handle it (not to mention conformation, movement, bloodlines, temperment, etc..). Do whats best for you and your colt :) I'm an advocate for gelding though.

[YankeeLawyer]

dkbaygirl -

ever try to find a boarding stable that will accept a stallion, no matter how well behaved? Ever try to find a boarding stable that has appropriate fencing for a stallion? ever try to find barn help that has handled a stallion before? You can find them in europe, but not in North America.

these are all things the consumer has to deal with. this is not Equus' personal horse. he is for sale.

whether you think so or not, stallions are different from geldings and mares. they need a horseman with tact - that can establish boundaries WITHOUT over-correcting. establishing boundaries is in many cases completely beyond the avaerage amateur no matter what the sex. I know, I've had to handle them afterwards.

As far as bad colt behavior - there is plenty: nipping/biting, stricking, rearing (that seems to be some colts' answer to everythig...go up) and over-vocalization. THen you have "unhappy with being a stallion behavior" which includes self-mutulation, fenceline running, weight loss and general fretting.

Equus, let me ask you this...how many really good trainers do you know in any given discipline? Not many I bet. Now ask yourself what the chances are that your intact colt is going to end up with one of them, be properly socialized and handled, and actually be happy being a stallion.

I completely agree with AHF's points. It is hard enough to find a suitable home for a good prospect, let alone a stallion prospect. In addition, very, very few colts should be kept entire, imo, and if in my opinion one of my colts is not a legitimate stallion prospect, the last thing I want is for someone to buy that colt and raise it as a stallion because it would not reflect particularly well on my program, either. On the flip side, if one of my colts looked like it should be developed as a breeding horse, I would either keep it and put it in a top stallion raising program or get it into the hands of someone committed to doing similarly.

With respect to gelding prior to inspection, before having a chance for the baby to be declared a "stallion prospect", unless the breeder is really unable to evaluate their own stock, to me, this falls in the "if you have to ask" category. If the horse is of the quality to merit being kept entire, it should be apparent without having to be told so by an inspector. How often do inspectors like babies more than their own breeders do?

[crosscreeksh]

As a breeder. I have NO issues with geldings being the "sex of choice" for most people but....why are you thinking of gelding so young??? Having trained, galloped and raced TB's for over 3 decades, handling stud colts and young stallions has almost never been a problem. As a breeder I usually wait until they are at least two or a bit older to geld - I think they develop better bodies with the hormone souce in place, but our "colts" are raised to be gentlemen...snipping isn't the fix-all for behavior problems, education is! Our three year old Irish Sport Horse colt (to be a stallion after inspection) is pastured with a TB gelding, next to geldings and often across a 16 foot aisleway from mares and foals. I have NEVER once heard him snort or call to the mares. The gelding (getting smaller than him by the day) whips his a$$ every other day or so as the need arises. I knew people back east that weaned and gelded on the same day. Now that IS cause for stress and ulcers!!! JMO

[Daydream Believer]

dkbaygirl -

ever try to find a boarding stable that will accept a stallion, no matter how well behaved? Ever try to find a boarding stable that has appropriate fencing for a stallion? ever try to find barn help that has handled a stallion before? You can find them in europe, but not in North America.


I beg to differ! :) I board stallions and I meet the above conditions for handling and housing. I will agree that your average pleasure boarding facility cannot manage stallions but a facility set up for breeding, training and showing often can.

On the OT's question...I don't generally geld young. I prefer to wait until they are long yearlings at the earliest. I am not concerned about growing them taller and since I am dealing with a rare breed...I try to hold off as long as I can. I have bachelor groups of colts and they grow up together outside as nature intended. They are gentle, easy to handle and most of the time, you'd not know they have balls. ;)

[EquusMagnificus]

Good points folks :)

He has not been deemed a stallion prospect by anyone. His dam only produced one colt that was deemed a stallion prospect and the thought crossed my mind about this fellow as he is indeed quite lovely. Now, I myself don't think I would say he is a stallion prospect but rather an extraordinary gelding prospect! :winkgrin: But I am still a novice at the breeding game and I could most certainly be wrong!

I would only trust the opinion of german judges from well recognized registries. Hanoverian being one of them. :)

[Sonesta]

We geld as yearlings if they are still here. Before that, I sell with an offer to pay for the gelding of the colt - or have it done for them before the horse leaves.

To avoid the knife, that colt has got to be OMG! fabulous. By the inspectors' opinions, not mine, as we all tend to get a bit barn blind with out offspring.

[vineyridge]

DITTO!

Excuse me, but this common perception of colts being fire breathing dragons on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I have asked before "please define bad colt behaviour" with nary a response to a sincere query. I have to wonder if the breeding community has now overbred the docile temperament to the point where the only resulting offspring that present any challenge in horsemanship skills whatsoever are intact colts???

I bought my first weanling when I was over fifty. Had no experience with babies at all. When he decided to try and play with me and came up behind me and reared with his front feet just missing my head, he lost his tackle. And he's never tried anything like that again. I could have tolerated his rear if it had been in front, but not behind me.

I'd call that bad colt behavior. His not-sister (same age, same sire) never tried anything at all like that.

[Stacie]

Do upper-level dressage riders prefer stallions for the "sparkle"?