Hunter Derby Prospects?

[pixie]

With all the hype surrounding the Hunter Derbies I am contimplating getting myself a youngster that has the most potential to develop into this type of horse. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what Stallion's progeny I should be looking into? The potential prospect must have tons of scope and a huge stylish correct jump, be braver than brave, be absolutely level headed, and beautiful! Needs to be a Hunter type (not Jumper) and reek of class!

[showjumpers66]

Apiro, Cabardino, Popeye K, Sir Caletto to name a few.

[chrissymack]

Agreed! Cabardino (he's done them himself, and did very well), Popeye K, Apiro...

We have a Cabardino foal on the ground, and Apiro foal in tummy; we are breeding for hunter derby quality off-spring. :yes:

[Dinah-do]

My opinion only - The first two stallions I know nothing about but that slow lopy canter that has taken over the hunter ring is too slow for the derbies. The horse is supposed to be able to gallop. Some of ther jumper horses do quite well because they can get the lead out. Maybe start looking at some classy eventing stallion as well.

[KBEquine]

You have a PM.

[Nes]

I'd say you should look up Tango las Marinas' sire but I can't find any information on him - he's a great little correct jumper (I swear I'm taking the drive up to go knock on their door next!)

My mare is an Iberian warmblood, great horse and I think would do very well in the derby format. She's a neat, tight correct little jumper with great natural balance, and a big stride for a small horse.

You may not want to look at one or two stallion's get specifically, but more breeds. A friend has a morganX who is also great in the derby style.

[showjumpers66]

Here you go, Dinah-do, videos of Apiro so that you can judge suitability for yourself.

http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/Video/ApiroGPHunter.wmv

http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/Video/ApiroSL2.wmv

The first two stallions I know nothing about

A few others - Rio Grande, Palladio, and Ragtime.

[showjumpers66]

Here is a video of Cabardino - http://www.charlotfarm.com/videos/CabardinoRAWF07.wmv

[Waterwitch]

I am wondering if we may find out that this is a format where the Irish horses excel...many will have the gallop, jump, bravery and level-headedness you are looking for, and many are very good-looking as well.

[Samotis]

I will put my 2 cents in. Only one suggestion because I only have 1 baby!!!

Roc USA. I bred my very careful not so brave hunter mare to him and my colt is definantly a hunter derby type in the making.

He has the most beautiful canter I have ever seen. Trots great, beautiful walk and jumps amazing.

He is only 17 months old, but he jumps all the jumps in the arena by himself for fun and nothing phases him. He actually will sit outside in his pen and watch me ride the other horses! He is super brave and very smart.

Roc USA is a jumper, but a lot of his offspring have done very well in the hunters. They are super brave and all have amazing canters and amazing jumps. His father Idocus has also sired many hunter types.

Good Luck!

I am really looking forward the starting my colt and he is to by my new hunter/derby horse! Won't be for another 6 or 7 years, but look out for him when I get there!;)

[3Dogs]

I think Showjumpers has promoted a very good list-

my four year old Sir Caletto is fearless and athletic and has a great canter - I think those are the qualities needed to excel - maybe a jumper, maybe an equitation horse (although I think the eq horses who are winners reflect more about their training than their style since most top equitation horse I know jump flat!), and then my preference: a top level hunter.

[EquineLVR]

I agree with all the stallions posted..

I would also add Cunningham, Cassini I and II, Corland, AFR, Escudo I and II, Ironman etc..

I am sure there are quite a few more. :)

[crestline]

As Palladio won the WA hunter derby last year and made a very good showing with a catch rider at the BC one he is for sure one. We get lots of kids that are a great deal like him in both style, technique and ease of training. I expect several to head for the derbies...

I'm crossing a Palladio daughter back on Landfriese II this year and am hopeful that it will be a good hunter derby candidate.

I've always liked Ironman...and Apiro's jumper footage from Germany shows he can do the big stuff too...our Apiro is a cutie! I don't know much about him but I'm intrigued by Chaleon as I love the Caletto I blood. I've seen a couple Caletto I jumpers that went around with lovely hunter form.

[pixie]

Wow! This is alot of information and I have already spend hours just looking at some of these stallions and their progeny. Everyone of the stallions mentioned has something very special to bring to the table. I will be doing lots of emailing to get more information. But first I will attend the Hunter Derby Final and study the horses! My eye is naturally drawn to a great hunter type but as others have mentioned I may need more of a rolling/galloping type.
Congratulations Samotis! Would love to see a video of your boy jumping around on his own! I will look at Roc Usa as well.
I am really gonna need rideability and trainability at the top of my list as I am in my mid forties and not gonna have a ton of time left in my riding career. Apiro and Cabardino cought my eye for this but I will have to really do my homework. The dam is gonna be the one I really study hard as I know from experience how much she brings to the table! So far I have noticed that alot of the dams used for breeding have no show records. How many generations back in the mare do I need to consider? I also noticed that when listing the dams they usually x it by the stallion of that stallion.....but isn't the mare's mother's side more important? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as many of you are professionals in this area.
thanks in advance!

[EllenAspen]

We have two All the Gold colts that we feel will be wonderful Hunter Derby prospects. Both are very athletic and beautiful movers.

[ljshorses]

As a breeder, I think it would be hard to specifically breed a derby horse. For example, I have bred for a jumper but the offspring was too quiet and then made a great hunter. I have bred for dressage but the not enough movement, however it made a nice eventer etc.. etc...When you breed you should have a goal in mind and then realize that there are factors that are just out of your control. I want the horse to tell me what it will be good at and then that will be a happy horse if it gets to shine where it belongs.

Here is a great current example that I have in my barn. I think this horse should go event or derby. He is a 2yo gelding that should finish 16.2h. He is by Ironman and out of a Polish Arabian mare. Now people say Arabian?? His dam looked like a small TB and had athleticism to spare. This particular 2yo, loves to free jump and is a bit quick but super handy and scopey. He also has that big stride to get the time. When I bred these two I was not thinking I would get a derby horse, I was thinking hunter possibly for the sportarabian shows. Playing with this guy in the ring tells me something else. Also, the fact he has a little fire but not at all spooky is a plus.

Be prepared to look for a mare that has great ground manners, not spooky and very athletic if possible. Then put the jump on top. A nice scopey jumper sire would increase your chances as long as he also is known for a good temperament. A recent jumper that I just bred to for this was Jill Burnell's Federalist. Here is some pics of the 2yo I spoke about above to show as an example only. I am using to show he came out slightly different than I expected yet maybe very good for something else. Eventing and derby horses might be easier to buy than breed but you certainly could put the odds in your favor. Have fun and good luck. Just breed the best two examples you can so that no matter what you end up with a nice horse hopefully, even if not a derby winner.

[avadog]

I agree Federalist seems like an obvious choice he's competed successfully in the jumpers and huntersI've heard his babies are beautiful movers also. I also like Cunningham, Ironman, Popeye K and Romantic Star, all horses that have the stride and scope.

[3Dogs]

lsj - lovely colt!

[can't re-]

pixie - sounds like you are really doing your homework!

I think Rio Grande - sire of GP jumpers and top hunters and Sir Caletto are good choices. I agree that trainability and temperament are huge factors in the derbies I've seen. Under the lights here in Ocala with the generators blaring - that takes a special horse.

I also noticed that when listing the dams they usually x it by the stallion of that stallion.....but isn't the mare's mother's side more important? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as many of you are professionals in this area.


I agree since the dam is at least half of the equation. My mares are carefully chosen for being as close to the whole package as possible and all have impressive show records.

[pixie]

Just to clarify.....I will be purchasing a 3 year old most likely, not breeding my own.

[Janet]

I would think that A Fine Romance would be a candidate. He has sired hunter, jumpers and eventers. it seems to me he would be the right type for the Hunter Derbies.

[Eventingjunkie]

As an outsider to hunters, I was curious what the judges were looking for in a hunter derby horse in contrast to a regular hunter. I have an incredible eventing horse looking for a new home and wonder if he might be appropriate for the derbies? He is only 15.1 but has no problem jumping 3'9", but his short legs mean the rider really has to work to get his strides in the ring...cross country and stadium jumping he is a king.

[avadog]

As an outsider to hunters, I was curious what the judges were looking for in a hunter derby horse in contrast to a regular hunter. I have an incredible eventing horse looking for a new home and wonder if he might be appropriate for the derbies? He is only 15.1 but has no problem jumping 3'9", but his short legs mean the rider really has to work to get his strides in the ring...cross country and stadium jumping he is a king.

Unfortunately I think you would have a hard time selling a 15.1hd horse to someone looking for a hunter derby prospect. 15.1hd in the hunter ring is pretty unheard of at the rated level. Sounds like you have a lovely event horse. :)

[ljshorses]

lsj - lovely colt!

Thanks 3Dogs. I felt he is a good example of getting something good but maybe not what you expected, lol.

Hey Pixie, sorry I missed that you weren't breeding a prospect, I just assumed since it was posted on sporthorse breeding that you were. I think you should have a much better chance of finding a derby prospect if looking at 3yos than babies or breeding your own. If I were to name the two stallions that I think would be best to look at offspring from it would be Federalist and Ironman but there are many good choices. But I do believe the mare will be a HUGE factor. To stay calm through the craziness and still have controllable "go", look carefully at the dams of your prospects if possible. Those moms put their temperament and reactiveness quite often on those babies that are a sponge at mom's side. What they see her do is what they may very well do. Not always but very often. Have fun looking for your next prospect.

[SilverBalls]

As some of you already know, a derby horse needs to be brave, scopey, and a good jumper. Quite frankly you will not have any idea until the horse is 5 or 6. I agree, you would have more "guarantees" looking at 3-4 year olds.
I cannot afford the $250K - $500K to buy one already made up, so I buy them young and take a chance. I will tell you my big chestnut, who was bred to do everything but jump, will be an excellent derby horse. He jumps anything and never bats an eye. I have my fingers crossed that he makes it back to the ring after a lay up for over a year.
The courses are extremely challenging which makes a horse take notice!

It's all a crapshoot. But there are some damn nice stallions out there that will give an edge... and that's half the battle. I think the hunter derbys are re-vitalizing the hunter industry as well as the shows.

[Dinah-do]

I think the Hunter Derbies will be the salvation of the hunter world. Anything is possible but I doubt there will be much drugging when a rider has to cruise around those big outside courses.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think the Hunter Derbies will be the salvation of the hunter world. Anything is possible but I doubt there will be much drugging when a rider has to cruise around those big outside courses.

??? That is an odd statement. Do you think Grand Prix showjumpers are 100% clean? They have to gallop around some big courses, also.

[3Dogs]

I wish that the working hunters would have some - not all - but some of the types of fences as now are placed in the "hunter derby". After all, isn't the original point of the "hunter derbies" to bring back the excitement of the upper level hunters, the numbers of which have dwindled over the years?

And SB is right - hard to know with a three or four year old. Really hard to know with a baby, no matter what the breeding, but you can narrow your "luck" factor with optimal bloodline matches :D

[CBoylen]

I think the Hunter Derbies will be the salvation of the hunter world. Anything is possible but I doubt there will be much drugging when a rider has to cruise around those big outside courses.
A class with a longer course, with fences spookier than you ever see in a division, set in a spookier, larger ring they haven't usually shown in that week, and usually run under lights... and you think that would encourage people to use LESS medication??? :lol::lol:

[Dinah-do]

I said it will be the salvation of the hunter world and I believe it. Trainers in this area whine and cry if the distances are not related or the derby is not in the regular ring. Maybe trainers like all the mundane rounds but spectators dont. No spectators, no sponsors. Fewer and fewer people want to put out sums of $ to have a horse compete with 3 or 4 other regular horses. The trainers and judges have created this mess - the derbies just show how feeble the show ring hunter has become. The derbies will provide a place for those people that love hunters but dont want to play "count your stides do a pokey canter". Riding a tranqued horse over a course that asks for brilliance is insane - however, hunters are a little odd these days.

[SilverBalls]

A class with a longer course, with fences spookier than you ever see in a division, set in a spookier, larger ring they haven't usually shown in that week, and usually run under lights... and you think that would encourage people to use LESS medication??? :lol::lol:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[bargo20]

parco, if you can find one. crespo and c'quito both placed in hunter derbies, crespo with a junior. they are very attractive, have huge jumping ability, and are very sane. i have a four year old that attained a 61 t2 in a usdf rated show (in the pouring rain) six weeks after being sat on for the first time. they are incredible horses.

[3Dogs]

CBoylen - a point,but to me a very sad point.

first - under lights at night is ?? My memory of WEF big hunter challenge - under lights in a big ole grass ring (maybe that has changed but I have the tapes from two years ago and the year before). Guess they all were drugged to the gills.

second - big ole "spooky" jumps??? Like a - OMG- a brush fence, or a vertical without a ground line, or -heaven forbid, a two foot bank (that was the size of it at WEF at most) - or really terrifying, a GATE? Wow, if all this is soo over the top, we need DRUGS, what HAS become of our hunters ?? ;)

[Dinah-do]

cboylen - how sad.

[YankeeLawyer]

I think the derbies will help the hunter division because they offer significant prize money and a course that is more interesting for spectators. I do not think the format will have an impact one way or the other on cheaters.

[showjumpers66]

It really doesn't have to be that way.

[baywithchrome2]

CBoylen - a point,but to me a very sad point.

Wow, if all this is soo over the top, we need DRUGS, what HAS become of our hunters ?? ;)

Is it the horses or the riders :confused:

[YankeeLawyer]

cboylen - how sad.

I do not think CBoylen was suggesting people will be encouraged to drug their horses by the derbies, but rather was responding to your point that derbies will clean up the sport to the extent there is a problem. It simply does not make sense that to the extent people cheat in the traditional hunter classes that all of a sudden they will not do so when faced with a more challenging format and, in particular, where a lot more prize money is at stake.

I showed in hunters on the A circuit for many, many years and my horses were very quiet naturally (except for one that took exception to certain venues, like Devon under the lights - we could be counted on to have the fastest time, there, though ; )). I am sure posters here probably would think the horses were sedated if they saw them, but they were not.

[vineyridge]

Call me a cynic, but I think that in five or ten years, should they last so long, the Hunter Derby classes will have turned into just another hunter class. Why? Because that's what the BNTs will want. Haven't you noticed that the current winners are as often as not not the BNTs, and the money for the class is really, really good?

[Words of Wisdom]

Many of the top hunters could easily be very successful in the jumper ring if given that type of ride. Same goes for a large number of the top jumpers (I'm not talking about the very hot, sensitive ones, but the ones that tend to be a bit colder).
For a derby, or really any class at that level, you're looking for an athletic horse, whether by a stallion known for producing hunters or jumpers. Argentinus, for example, produces fantastic jumpers, and also many horses that excel in the hunter ring. Especially if you are buying a three year old, I would be more concerned with what the horse was doing at that moment than what the papers say (and, this is coming from someone who owns stallions-- good lines only get you so far-- I've seen, by the same top stallions, both fantastic athletes, and ones I'd be scared to jump).

[TheOrangeOne]

Call me a cynic, but I think that in five or ten years, should they last so long, the Hunter Derby classes will have turned into just another hunter class. Why? Because that's what the BNTs will want. Haven't you noticed that the current winners are as often as not not the BNTs, and the money for the class is really, really good?

The BNTs tend to do enough winning on their good horses that they don't want to risk hurting them in an extra class. I mean, if it was already champion in the greens or some such, why push for another, extra demanding class? At least, that was the thought of the BNT whom I rode with for a period of time. Smaller name trainers are less likely to be consistently winning (or else they would not be smaller names) and thus more willing to take a gamble.

I do agree with you, sadly. Classics used to be really special, too, and now they're just another 50 dollar class you can add onto the end of your Ch/AA division. Sure, there are certain ones that still are, but the name doesn't hold the same prestige.

[showjumpers66]

The trainer showing Apiro for us last year was not interested in showing in the Derby as most of the horses in his barn were already doing two divisions (1 with him & 1 with the client) plus possibly the classic and eq classes. It is a lot to ask of the horses to add another big class.

[Jsalem]

We were really excited about the Derbies as we had purchased a young horse that was ideally suited for them- he's beautiful, freaky good jumping, and unbelievably brave. He's currently showing in the First Year Green division. Here's what we have discovered:

1) A First Year Green horse is too Green
2) First class Jr Hunters or A/O Hunters are more suitable.
3) It has become a showcase for talented Jr riders on great horses- not the professionals.

Why? Our horse is a perfect example. No sooner did we start to win big on this horse (won an o/f class at Devon in the First Years) and the offers to buy him (and the tremedous pressure to sell him) started to roll in. What we'd really like is to keep this lovely horse and enjoy showing him. But it seems that that's not the way of the world. The top 1st year horses don't go on to do the 2nd years and the Working Hunters. They're sold for big bucks to the amateurs. Cause that's what it's all about. Kind of a shame if you ask me.

[YankeeLawyer]

3) It has become a showcase for talented Jr riders on great horses- not the professionals.
.

That may be in part because the juniors also typically do the big eq and are very sharp from that.

[Jsalem]

I'm not taking anything away from those Junior riders. They're fantastic. My point is that they are mounted on the best hunters- they're beautiful, stylish, athletic and seasoned. I think the professionals don't get to "keep" the great horses for themselves and I also don't think they want to put themselves out there on the greener horses to get beat by the better mounted amateurs.

So I'm personally not sure about the whole "Hunter Derby" thing. It looks like it's becoming a special showcase class for the amateurs, not the professionals. I've also noticed that the numbers are really big, but many of the those entered are really not good enough. In terms of spectating, I'd like to watch the best, not just amateurs out there "giving it a try."

[DMK]

as well you know, Janet, there just isn't a lot of money in it for a pro to keep a pro horse, and since pros are in it to make money (ideally, being a professional 'n all that ;) ) then their best horses have to be groomed towards sales. Of course that means jrs and ammies if you are lucky, childrens and adults if the horse isn't a top 3'6 stylist.

But very few owners keep a horse with a pro solely to be a pro ride. At least the top jrs and some ammies are good enough to hold their own with the average pro ride so you do see some good quality rides/horses in the ring (but who here secretly wishes that we could all watch Betty Oare out there showing them all how a Derby should be ridden?) But yes, I wish we could see some serious world class hunters like Gray Slipper out there. I have a feeling him and Louise could really take everyone to school and teach them a few things.

That said I bought a yearling last year and have been joking "hunter derby horse, 2012" ever since. :D OK, he seems to have the level headedness and lack of fear and everything I do with him is geared towards fostering those traits, he looks like he has the step, he's certainly all the mover ... gee, now we just have to hope he can jump well enough, have the scope, I have the money and all the stars align in such a way that it all happens. No big deal, eh?

I do think a generation of horses can be bought up to be a hunter derby horse if they are trained towards that. First year might be too soon for a horse who is bought up jumping traditional hunter fences, but the jumps themselves are not the issue. Your average YJF horse does far more technical and scary jumps, as does an event horse. It's all about how the horse was trained. So give it a few years and if someone wants to gear a horse towards the Derbies out of the gate with the 1st years, it may be more likely. But the current crop of horses hasn't exactly been bought along with Derbies in mind.

[Dinah-do]

Honestly - who buys/raises the horse? Who owns it? Who pays the bills? The trainers have been a big part of the mess the hunter world is in now. They should be lining up to ride anything with a tail. Promote their industry and all that. There is a lot more to this than who wins. JMO.

[Dinah-do]

Dmk - my thoughts - your words.

[Samotis]

Jsalem,

I disagree, I think that everyone should try to go into the hunter derby at some point if they are showing in the 3'6 hunters. I find it ridiculous that most junior and A/O riders couldn't hold their own in a derby class.

You aren't going to get better at something until you try it. Do you just think that only good horses should go in the hunter derby? Thats crap.

We are finally putting classes out there that have more skill involved and hey, maybe it will even help bring the TB's back into the woodwork!

It isn't supposed to be easy. It is supposed to make the riders actually ride and not just sit their like a bag of potatoes on top of a push button 200k horse!!!

[Jsalem]

Well here's my perspective from participating in as well as from spectating a number of Derbies. This class is usually a special night class at the end of a long day of showing. Several of the Derbies have been pushed back as the regular classes have run long, starting as late as 7pm. When you have 30 entrants to ride the first course, and it's a much longer course than usual- you're talking 8:30 or so before the SECOND round. By the time that round is finished, no one cares to see a third round.

I really want to see something special. I don't want to see lots of riders who are in over their heads. Wild applause when they make it around. In fact, personally, I want to see the top professionals go on the top horses. Personally, I'd like to see a majority of professionals and then some really top amateurs in there slugging it out. What I'm seeing is an increasing number of amateurs. Good for them, but I'm not sure I want to stay up late to watch that. I can watch them go in the Jr and A/O classic on Sunday. And isn't the point to see something special?

No, I'm not saying that the amateurs shouldn't be able to try a Derby. But isn't the point to draw spectators to watch the cream of the crop?

[Dinah-do]

The derbies are new (at least to recent decades) - so a good group of competitors will be over their heads. The horses have spent years in little rings so it will take a while to get the appropriate horses in the big rings. The alternative is more of what there is now which is not much. Riders have to start somewhere.

[Jsalem]

I guess I'm concerned that the "come one, come all" attitude is going to detract from the "Special" nature of the Derby. As I understand it, the classes are required to be open to all- there is no qualification necessary. I wonder if that will change. From what I've seen, I think it needs to if these classes are going to be special and if they're going to be something that people flock to see.

Sorry to hijack the thread, OP. Back to your original question: I think that if you're shopping for a Derby prospect, you will be looking for the same thing you're looking for with any legit 3'6" and over hunter prospect: Beautiful, athletic, fantastic jump, brave and scopey. You've got a long haul ahead of you. Baby Green, then Pre Green, then First Year Green. If that horse is great in the First Year Division and has proven to be scopey, brave, competitive with the big boys, then maybe the next year, it would be ready for a Derby. The First Year Div now has a Handy Course which is a nice start.

As I said earlier, we tried our very brave and scopey First Year horse at the Derby in Aiken. He probably bucked for the entire first half of the course, then he settled in and had a ball. Jumped like a freak with tons to spare. It was really something to see some other First Year horses try it. At least ours marched around. I watched horses stop with some of the top professionals, one fell off. I watched one top professional pull up on a First Year horse and tip his hat. The best Derby horses weren't the jumpers or the Eq horses- they were the magnificent Jr Hunters. I do think the winner that week was a pro horse- not sure what division it does.

So at this point I would say you need a top, top quality, plus seasoned and reliable 3'6"+ horse. That's what you're looking for. Aren't we all looking for that? Good luck!

[chrissymack]

Well here's my perspective from participating in as well as from spectating a number of Derbies. This class is usually a special night class at the end of a long day of showing. Several of the Derbies have been pushed back as the regular classes have run long, starting as late as 7pm. When you have 30 entrants to ride the first course, and it's a much longer course than usual- you're talking 8:30 or so before the SECOND round. By the time that round is finished, no one cares to see a third round.

I really want to see something special. I don't want to see lots of riders who are in over their heads. Wild applause when they make it around. In fact, personally, I want to see the top professionals go on the top horses. Personally, I'd like to see a majority of professionals and then some really top amateurs in there slugging it out. What I'm seeing is an increasing number of amateurs. Good for them, but I'm not sure I want to stay up late to watch that. I can watch them go in the Jr and A/O classic on Sunday. And isn't the point to see something special?

No, I'm not saying that the amateurs shouldn't be able to try a Derby. But isn't the point to draw spectators to watch the cream of the crop?

I think it must depend upon the shows you attend as to the competitors that the derbies are drawing. Here in Wellington I've attended each one they've had, and have really enjoyed watching many of the great, well-known, even some Olympic jumper riders bring in "derby prospect" horses to have a go at it. In addition, BNT/ top pro hunter riders were also high in numbers. True, there were some juniors and amateurs on their 3'6" hunter/eq mounts as well, but certainly none were floundering or over their heads; most were the cream of the crop in their own respects, and put in respectable trips despite challenges the courses presented in set-up/fence style, etc.

Our derbies have all been held over the course of 2-days, and final rounds drew crowds as large as the big jumper classes do; first round afternoon classes had people standing to watch along the rail!

Drawing spectators, sparking interest and creating discussion is exactly what the derbies have done down here...and I think they will only continue to become more popular and even more competetive as time goes on.
It is still new, and there will be tweaking involved...one of the magazines this month (maybe USHJA?) was discussing changes from 3'6-3'9 fences to primarily 3'9 to 4' fences with only 25% remaining at 3'6", requiring more complex coursework, allowing extra points for style and athletecism (without gimmicky riding), etc. It sounds as though they are aware that this will be a process to fully establish, but I think they are well on their way, and it is encouraging to see that they are continually evaluating and discussing changes to make derbies great.

I think this is what hunters have long been in need of...returning to jump options, simulated hunt/brush style fences, riding a little more off the eye, unrelated distances, banks, playing the course to your horses' strengths, etc. Maybe have a little less LTD (lunge till dead), instead a soft, flowing hand gallop where a little sparkle in the eye can be an asset. I'm excited! :yes:

Back to the OP question...I think it will take a little time as the derbies develop to their fullest to determine the type of horse you need to look for. I think JSalem is correct that a scopey 3'6" hunter is a great start...but if you are looking younger, to make one rather than buy one, I'd have a peek at bloodlines...there are many stallions who have proven successful offspring in both the jumper and hunter rings; the derby may require a bit of both- movement and style of a hunter, and scope and adjustability of a jumper!

[Jsalem]

chrissymack, I'm happy to hear the perspective of someone who has seen a Derby in Wellington. I've only seen them in Aiken, Atlanta- I think that's it? I like the idea of a "final round" showcased with the best. That I could get behind- the crowds would get a more exciting class to watch. And sure, everyone could "try their hand" in a prelim round without boring the crowd.

I agree that bloodlines do matter. Our warmblood was actually bred for Dressage- but I think they like some jumper lines in those horses. He's by Rubels out of a Haarlem (Voltaire) mare. We also have a really cool TB that jumped around the Derby in Atlanta- he just pulled a rail. He's been a very successful Jr Hunter. He's by The Prime Minister out of a Red Ransom mare.

[Edgewood]

I really LOVE watching the hunter derby, much more interesting than the traditional hunter class (in this dressage rider ex-eventer's perspective:D). The rounds that are beautiful are just amazing to watch.

I would love to know this horse's pedigree as I thought this was such a beautiful round and the horse is gorgeous and has a gorgeous jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YTF4kudQDY

Although I am not generally aiming for hunters with my breeding, the hunter derby has definitely peaked my interest because it is so interesting to watch these beautiful horses and jumpers do these courses.

[TwinGates]

Pixie, I sent you a PM

[SilverBalls]

There is a lot more to this than who wins. JMO.


No there isn't....:winkgrin:

[Dinah-do]

Well - if winning line classes are the be all to end all then derbies are probably not for you. If winning same old roundy round hunter classes is really special then derbies are not your thing. If watching 20 or 30 or more athletic horses being challenged and (i assume that at the very least half of the class will be at least good) showing that a horse can gallop and jump then derbies are great. The same horse does not win all the time so there is one problem erased. Good clean competition.

[CBoylen]

I think part of the point that Silverballs is making is that the horse you have for the hunter derby still has to win in a "normal" hunter division. There is no market for a hunter derby specialist. Maybe in the future there will be, but at this point having a winner is the goal, not having a horse suitable for the derby. Some great hunters are also quiet enough and brave enough to be good derby horses, like Early Applause, but that's just an added bonus and maybe a good-sized prizecheck. The real value of the horse is being a top hunter.

[Underdog]

How do you know if you have a candidate as a Derby horse at 4 yo?

I saw some of the characteristics described, and I am wondering if I have one.
Very brave and bold....happily jumps in great form (best quality), but a bit strong in the hands as a 4 yo and was suggested to think jumpers.
I don't have the talent for her. I admit it. ;-)
She's by Corlando.
SilverBalls....you've seen her. I don't think you saw her jump though.

[pixie]

Thank you everyone for all the great information and discussion (and all the PM'S)! I have alot of "looking" to do. I do think the prospect has to be a Hunter type jumper, but the Hunter type mover is not necessary (this should make him/her more affordable at least). It really can't be a Jumper type as the smoothness/rideability and artistry will not be there. The horse needs to explode over the jump but nowhere else!
With my looking around I have become really smitten with Cabardino and Apiro and then a thread showed up (here) about Cabardino with a picture of a yearling jumping (post 20) that is amazing! Both of them have yearlings/weanlings on the ground that I may have to have!...lol
Anyway, There are certainly alot of impressive youngsters out there. Kudos to all of you Breeders!