Sporthorse Auction at Lexington July 11th!!!Who is going? [Archive]

Cartier

Jun. 28, 2009, 01:24 PM

Hi, What exactly does the Buyer's premium mean? It looks like there is 10% commission the seller pays to PAS and then the buyer also pays 7% commission to the PAS plus another 5% sales tax? Is that correct? Just trying to understand . . .

How does the sales tax/VAT and commission work in European auctions?

Thanks, Kim

No question but that it costs to put on these sorts of auctions, but it does seem that PAS has its hand out in a way that could put off both buyers and sellers. Makes one wonder if there really is enough profit in a sale of this kind for the seller to pay so much up front just for the opportunity to sell?

I work for a company that does real estate auctions from time to time. It’s a numbers game for us… we get so much from each sale. A higher sales price is nice, but ANY amount is fine. We are gambling that the seller will agree to enter the sale with the expectation of $X dollars… but that on the day of the sale they will take one half or one third of $X, in part because it is a “bird in the hand” or cash in the hand. For us it’s more a matter of volume (a small percentage on a large number of sales), rather then getting hung up on any single sale.

talloaks

Jun. 28, 2009, 01:35 PM

The upset price is $1000 so I guess that means bidding must start at $1000 or horse is considered unsold. Of course the sellers will want more than 1K to even break even but sometimes at auctions the bidding starts much lower to get the bids coming.

I hope they are able to get some serious buyers at the sale but the location is out of the way for many buyers. At least that is my opinion.

Wonder how many people who are showing at Lexington will be interested in buying another horse.

Looks like there are plenty of mares, but not so many yearlings or two year olds, wonder why??? Any ideas??

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 28, 2009, 01:40 PM

I know a number of the horses in the auction and they are *very* nice. (I do not have a horse in the sale this year but covet a couple of the ones I know well that are for sale). There is a group of breeders/owners who are very committed to bringing the kind of quality you see in German auctions to auctions in the US and who have decided to get behind this auction and raise the bar, so to speak. It may take some time to catch on, but the idea was that we have to start somewhere in order to make high end auctions a reality here, so these consignors have put some of their best horses in the sale.

I would strongly encourage even those not in the market for a horse to attend in order to learn about the sale and what they are offering so that you can spread the word and encourage continued support for these types of events in the future.

Nootka

Jun. 28, 2009, 01:46 PM

I wish I had the money:yes: Some of those mares look yummy:D

Oakstable

Jun. 28, 2009, 01:53 PM

I think it is great that some farms are putting their best stock in the auction.

I hope they take them home if the fair prices aren't there.

Back in the 90s, someone tried an auction here in SoCal in a recession. (not anywhere near as bad as this).

I put in a filly who was really nice quality. No bids even at $1,000. I wouldn't have sold her for that, but some people who were strapped let their horses go for whatever the bid was.

A good auction can help establish pricing.

Indy-lou

Jun. 28, 2009, 02:11 PM

I was impressed with the quality of some of the offerings. I definitely got the impression that the bigger farms were "spiking the punch" to create an event attractive to many levels of buyers.

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 29, 2009, 10:41 AM

why the :( face?

A number of reasons..............

I know where he is right now, and that is important to me with my offspring. I may never know where he ends up after an auction.

The ad does him no justice.........one ok picture and only 1/2 of a phenominal pedigree listed won't drag people in to see him. :no:

I sold him to one of the nicest facilities in the country and now he is going to leave it, so I am a bit sad.

I am concerned about how auctions are viewed in this country and hope that he will get the consideration that he deserves. :)

talloaks

Jun. 29, 2009, 10:51 AM

A number of reasons..............

I know where he is right now, and that is important to me with my offspring. I may never know where he ends up after an auction.

The ad does him no justice.........one ok picture and only 1/2 of a phenominal pedigree listed won't drag people in to see him. :no:

I sold him to one of the nicest facilities in the country and now he is going to leave it, so I am a bit sad.

I am concerned about how auctions are viewed in this country and hope that he will get the consideration that he deserves. :)

I can understand how you feel about one of your special breeding foals/offspring being in the sale and perhaps going on to oblivion. Have you considered bidding at the sale to buy him back???

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 29, 2009, 11:49 AM

I can understand how you feel about one of your special breeding foals/offspring being in the sale and perhaps going on to oblivion. Have you considered bidding at the sale to buy him back???

I'm full and have no real reason to have a gelding here, no matter how nice, but along those lines, I am contacting all of the people that I know who are shopping to try to get him into the hands of someone that I know. It's a plus that he was so nicely started, too.

I went through some of the listings this morning and was really frustrated...there are "mare-in-foal" listings that have no mention of who the mare is in foal to, GOV and NA/ISR used interchangably, sometimes in the same paragraph, and lots of incompete pedigrees. I don't have as much of a problem with this with the geldings, but if you are trying to promote a mare as a broodmare then tell us her pedigree!

That said, I do think that they are doing a lot, with putting them each on dream horse etc.

Cartier

Jun. 29, 2009, 12:31 PM

A number of reasons..............

I know where he is right now, and that is important to me with my offspring. I may never know where he ends up after an auction.

The ad does him no justice.........one ok picture and only 1/2 of a phenominal pedigree listed won't drag people in to see him. :no:

I sold him to one of the nicest facilities in the country and now he is going to leave it, so I am a bit sad.

I am concerned about how auctions are viewed in this country and hope that he will get the consideration that he deserves. :)
I totally understand how you feel. It would be very difficult to not know where a foal you bred ended up. It’s the down side of breeding animals that live so long, they are going to change hands and it’s hard to keep track of them. Especially with a gelding, where there is no incentive to keep his original name. I guess that the best a breeder can hope for is that the foal has been well started and will lead a good life.

Oakstable

Jun. 29, 2009, 12:54 PM

I've seen sales catalogs for Joan Irvine Smith's auctions and it is very important to have complete information for those of us who are geeky about pedigrees.

ahf

Jun. 29, 2009, 01:16 PM

IHF -

Did you keep a copy of his papers from the registry? If so, why don't you scan them into an email and send it, along with any other good information that might help sell him (siblings acheivements, dam acheivements, etc) to Tim Jennings.

The Jennings are the nicest people, and I know they are really trying their utmost to make this a success.

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 29, 2009, 01:28 PM

I would bet they are monitoring this thread, and getting ideas on how to improve. They are doing a super job! Wish I didn't have a wedding to go to that day, or I would definitely want to attend.

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 29, 2009, 02:05 PM

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 29, 2009, 02:09 PM

Great ideas guys!

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 29, 2009, 11:28 PM

I just wanted to add that the organizers and sellers are going to a really great effort to put on a very good and worthwhile event for all, and to emphasize again that even people who are not in the market but who are curious about the sale are very welcome and should try to come. I have even heard that a number of German traditions are going to be adopted, such as wine and flowers to the buyer of the highest priced horse.

buschkn

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:33 AM

I like Rascalla and IHFs boy Superstition. Good thing for my wallet I work that weekend and there aren't many jumper breds in there. :) Hope it is a big success! It would be great if we could have auction events like they do in Europe, where it is a big deal, prestigious, enjoyable and not something looked down upon as a last resort like so many in NA consider them. Good luck to all involved. Keep us posted!

trooper345

Jun. 30, 2009, 08:32 AM

Oooooo, Rascalla is SUPER nice, I would grab that one in a heart beat if I had the $$ and I have seen her go in person. She had great success at the breed show at Morven this past weekend too.

Tamara in TN

Jun. 30, 2009, 10:20 AM

I have even heard that a number of German traditions are going to be adopted, such as wine and flowers to the buyer of the highest priced horse.

it should be wine and dinner BEFORE the sale :)....then we'll see the prices go up....at the Brazilian auctions the liquor flows "on the house" and the bidding increments are announced ahead of time (2x 3x 5x actual bid amounts) so you can see some crazy stuff there;)

best

YankeeLawyer

Jun. 30, 2009, 12:47 PM

it should be wine and dinner BEFORE the sale :)....then we'll see the prices go up....at the Brazilian auctions the liquor flows "on the house" and the bidding increments are announced ahead of time (2x 3x 5x actual bid amounts) so you can see some crazy stuff there;)

best

I do not disagree with that approach : )

Sunny's Mom

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:17 PM

Those Rosenthal youngsters look really nice.

Cold Spring Farm

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:27 PM

I know the Rosenthal colt Rafiki and he is a fabulous mover. Incredible disposition....calm, sensible and bright. Pretty unflappable temperment.

Fairview Horse Center

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:35 PM

it should be wine and dinner BEFORE the sale

and the next step could be to add prime seating, and a $200 a plate catered dinner, with the dinner profit going to a popular charity. :D

onceandfuture

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:44 PM

paintjumper

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:44 PM

Here in the US the word "auction" seems to come like a dirty word. Like you are trying to get rid of something that is not worthy of being sold "the regular way". I'm not sure how that concept happened here (in the US). Over across the pond they seem to celebrate their auctions and it's an honor for the horses to be there. I once took a mare to a swanky advertised auction and even thou the folks were really nice and trying very hard I still felt guilty........so much so I "no sold her" and brought her home!!!!! I just couldn't do it. Folks were trying to buy her at the stall but I brought her home..........much to my husband's dismay!!!!! It worked out well though, I sold her a few months later to a wonderful home where she became their foundation broodmare for their farm.

Mozart

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:56 PM

Sadly, I have no room at the inn (for now....we just bought a 100 acre farm :eek:) but IHF sent me a heads up e-mail and I forwarded it to a friend who is shopping for a young jumper prospect. I know which one I want her to buy...

ahf

Jun. 30, 2009, 01:56 PM

Is the auction plannng to make vetting results or radiographs available for prospective buyers? Will it be possible to convince buyers to spend substantial sums without given them the opportunity to review radiographs?

I "hear" they will have a vet available for radiograph review. And a Board-certified surgeon at that.

But this is what i "hear". If it's that important to you - ask the auction company to be sure.

ASBJumper

Jun. 30, 2009, 03:24 PM

Oh wow, a little birdie just informed me that a mare I used to own is in this sale - hip number 26! I had her between the ages of 11 months and 3.5 yrs!

Iron Horse Farm

Jul. 1, 2009, 01:32 AM

Indy-lou

Jul. 8, 2009, 11:28 PM

Bumping this up as it right around the corner. Anyone planning on attending? It would be great if any attendees would post here.

TouchstoneAcres

Jul. 9, 2009, 10:29 AM

A small Baroque horse auction connected with the Andalusion show might be nice. I would be more apt to put my Lipizzan youngsters in that.

Carol Ames

Jul. 9, 2009, 12:30 PM

tHEY DO PUT lots OF EFFORT INTO THEIR SALES; THIS SALE is in reponse to the posts on this forum that stated a desire for sport horse auctions to become a custom in this country:yes: , as in Europe, don't expect the staff to speak three languages as in Europe:no: but, you can expect several hundred people:yes: to see each horse; the hope is to make these auctions a valid market place for well bred sport horses; as they are for Quarter horses :yes: so, why not others, too?:confused:

Well, they are certainly putting effort into advertising this sale. I think they have done an excellent job. We’ve received several emails from Professional Auctions advertising this event. Kudos to all involved. I really hope this proves to be a worth while and successful sale… for buyers and sellers... it is much needed.
____

Carol Ames

Jul. 9, 2009, 12:41 PM

I have even heard that a number of German traditions are going to be adopted, such as wine and flowers to the buyer of the highest priced horse. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4198112)

password

Jul. 9, 2009, 01:11 PM

I really hope this sale is a huge success! But is anybody having any luck getting videos on these horses? I saw that they offered online bidding.

Carol Ames

Jul. 9, 2009, 01:11 PM

And bad weather, blizzard, tornado :eek:or bad news on the national/ international business page can scare buyers AWAY! no question but that it costs to put on these sorts of auctions, Look at the amount $$$$ :mad:they've spent on dvertising alone! but it does seem that PAS has its hand out in a way that could put off both buyers and sellers. Makes one wonder if there really is enough profit in a sale of this kind for the seller to pay so much up front just for the opportunity to sell?

I work for a company that does real estate auctions from time to time. It’s a numbers game for us… we get so much from each sale. A higher sales price is nice, but ANY amount is fine. We are gambling that the seller will agree to enter the sale with the expectation of $X dollars… but that on the day of the sale they will take one half or one third of $X, in part because it is a “bird in the hand” or cash in the hand. For us it’s more a matter of volume (a small percentage on a large number of sales), rather then getting hung up on any single sale. __________________
Logres Farm

talloaks

Jul. 9, 2009, 01:40 PM

Is anyone going???

EvergreenDors

Jul. 10, 2009, 01:18 PM

I am going as I have 2 horses in the sale. I am a very small breeder and I am hoping for this kind of sale to take off. I breed only a few high quality horses each year and it is becoming extremely tiresome to try and advertise in the right places, be available when the buyers want to come, make contracts, sign contracts, only to have the buyer back out the last minute. This has happened several times to me and I am trying to find a better venue. If all goes well PAS will present a small amount of very high quality horses to a very specific group of people. I am hoping to not take my guys home. I am bringing my highest quality stock in hopes to promote the quality than can come from a small breeder. So if you are looking for nice horses come tot he sale and see what you can pick up. Or tell everyone about it, it is never too late!!

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 10, 2009, 01:49 PM

Two of my very favorite horses are being offered by a friend in the sale.

DownYonder

Jul. 10, 2009, 03:08 PM

I wish everyone great success with this. I hope buyers feel they have gotten very good deals on great quality horses, and I hope sellers are happy with the knockdown prices. We really need a GOOD auction venue in this country.

Does anyone know if they will publish knockdown prices?

EvergreenDors

Jul. 10, 2009, 06:09 PM

Knockdown prices? Is that the same as sales prices? I suspect they will as they always have in previous sales.

paintjumper

Jul. 10, 2009, 06:35 PM

If we are going to be able to follow this online in real time? Good luck every body!!

Skeezix

Jul. 10, 2009, 10:07 PM

I will be at the show all day tomorrow since my daughter is showing two horses, and plan to attend some of the auction. Really really gorgeous horses--I can hardly wait. I hope also to be able to catch the previews between classes during the day.

My pick on paper at least is What About Bob. If only I had loads of money :)

florida foxhunter

Jul. 10, 2009, 10:34 PM

Indy-lou

Jul. 10, 2009, 11:32 PM

Before the auction takes place, I'd like to take a minute to thank all of the breeders and owners who have put their top quality stock into a sale like this. I hope it all goes well. I am a firm believer that the sporthorse industry in North America must start somewhere with auctions of this kind. So, thank you to all who are doing their best to get venues like this into the mainstream. It takes a group of people willing to put their best forward in order for the stigma of "auction" to be overcome here. No doubt there will be some bargains for some lucky bidders. Good luck to all! I hope someday we breeders will have to compete to put our best stock into sales like this.

EvergreenDors

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:35 AM

Talloaks......I feel for you,...and feel your concern. I, too, have a horse that I bred in the sale.I'm watching it very closely.........on line, but am set up to bid on line if my friend (who is there) doesn't bid on my baby.........
I sold the mare to a lady who got cancer, and long story short, my poor filly ended up in this sale!
I'm gratified with the calibur of the sale, but still nervous about the auction's impersonal situation. I like to also follow and know where all my horses offspring are (especially the ones I've raised) .........and always try to help if I can in any way.....

Stephanie Jennings has been wonderful to me in helping me get registered to bid, etc.
I hope it goes well for everyone and there are lots of nice homes/buyers there!!!

This is exactly the problem. You are set up to bid on your "poor filly" if need be. There is always the potential that this kind of sale would give you filly the perfect owner, but you are so set against it right from the start. I tioo like to keep track of my babies, and with an all day venue such as this prospective buyers can spend the afternnon with your filly loving on her in the stall, leading her around and getting to know her just as well as at a private sale. I am sorry that you are so worried about your filly. But that is the uphill battle sales like this have.

talloaks

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:49 AM

Talloaks......I feel for you,...and feel your concern. I, too, have a horse that I bred in the sale.I'm watching it very closely.........on line, but am set up to bid on line if my friend (who is there) doesn't bid on my baby.........
I sold the mare to a lady who got cancer, and long story short, my poor filly ended up in this sale!
I'm gratified with the calibur of the sale, but still nervous about the auction's impersonal situation. I like to also follow and know where all my horses offspring are (especially the ones I've raised) .........and always try to help if I can in any way.....

Stephanie Jennings has been wonderful to me in helping me get registered to bid, etc.
I hope it goes well for everyone and there are lots of nice homes/buyers there!!!

florida foxhunter, I believe you have me, talloaks, confused with Iron Horse Farm. IHF has the Sandro Hit in the sale, I don't have any horses in the sale. Good luck to you in the sale of the one you bred, I know this must be gut wrenching to go through!!

Iron Horse Farm

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:04 AM

I'm now much better about having my guy go through the sale after seeing how much effort the auctin house has put forth. Although I still wish that they would hve mentioned my guy's great damline and not JUST the Sandro Hit, the advertising has been very good and will hopefully attract a high quality buyer.

I too am kind of offended by the "oh my poor filly". This isn't an auction where there will be a slaughter truck in the back drive.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:20 AM

This isn't an auction where there will be a slaughter truck in the back drive.

Not at all.

Regarding sale prices, etc. - please do bear in mind that the people who have gotten behind this auction are doing so with short and long-term goals in mind - the long-term being the most important, and that everyone expects that it is going to take some time and effort to establish the kind of auctions they have in Germany in the US market. So while everyone is hopeful that this auction will itself be a great success and is doing everything they can to make that happen, this year should be viewed as a building year and people should not get discouraged if a lot of big numbers do not roll in this time. We are of course in a poor economy and this year many will likely be attending simply to see what the auction is all about. So please do not get discouraged and view it as a failure if the numbers aren't there this year. Once people come to understand the high quality available there and that the horses are being fairly represented, we will start seeing real progress.

moonpie

Jul. 11, 2009, 12:44 PM

Holly- do you have amnesia???? You posted the same thing about you horse in the sale???? How dare you jump on flyingcolors.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 12:52 PM

Guys, don't bicker. The point of all these efforts is to establish a new standard for sporthorse auctions here. It is understandable that some people would have mixed feelings or concern given that historically auctions have a bad rep, and deservedly so in some cases. When I first heard weeks ago that my friend was putting her *really* nice horse in the sale, my own initial reaction was "are you nuts." But when she and others explained what they were trying to accomplish, I thought it was a great idea.

By the way, the auction preview is available live online NOW:

http://www.horseshowwebcasts.com/shows/2009/25229/

They just presented a Stedinger filly from Canaan Ranch.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 12:55 PM

The sale itself can be seen this afternoon by clicking on the Virginia Sporthorse Sale
here:

http://www.horseauctions.com/

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 11, 2009, 01:04 PM

Guys, don't bicker. The point of all these efforts is to establish a new standard for sporthorse auctions here.
.

Can you elaborate about a 'new standard'?
Sporthorse auctions are nothing new. Pony Finals auction has been around for a long time.
What's different about this auction?

patch work farm

Jul. 11, 2009, 01:17 PM

Will this be the link for the auction?

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 01:38 PM

Will this be the link for the auction?

No worries -

PineTree, I had typed out a lengthy response but accidentally deleted it. In brief, a number of top farms have put some of their best horses in this sale. The idea of this sale was to raise the bar in terms of consistent quality of the horses being offered and the effective marketing of the sale. Other sporthorse auctions I have attended might have had one or two interesting horses but many of the others were being sold at auction for a reason, to be diplomatic. The hope is that the sale will provide a venue where people have a selection of a number of very nice horses to choose from, and ultimately, that the prices will reflect the market value of the horse and not be artificially depressed by stigma associated with auctions. It is also one of the few sporthorse sales being held in conjunction with a major show.

The Pony Finals auction has been successful, as far as I know, but has never offered a venue for the sale of sport HORSES generally or dressage horses in particular. But the concept is similar - bring quality horses to one place where the potential clients are - a major show.

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 11, 2009, 01:55 PM

No worries -

PineTree, I had typed out a lengthy response but accidentally deleted it. In brief, a number of top farms have put some of their best horses in this sale. The idea of this sale was to raise the bar in terms of consistent quality of the horses being offered and the effective marketing of the sale. Other sporthorse auctions I have attended might have had one or two interesting horses but many of the others were being sold at auction for a reason, to be diplomatic. The hope is that the sale will provide a venue where people have a selection of a number of very nice horses to choose from, and ultimately, that the prices will reflect the market value of the horse and not be artificially depressed by stigma associated with auctions. It is also one of the few sporthorse sales being held in conjunction with a major show.

The Pony Finals auction has been successful, as far as I know, but has never offered a venue for the sale of sport HORSES generally or dressage horses in particular. But the concept is similar - bring quality horses to one place where the potential clients are - a major show.

There have been sporthorse sales (like the ones that Nona Garson runs) but I don't believe they have been too successful in terms of dollars spent. There was an attempt to have a sale in NY a few weeks ago but it didn't happen. Not sure of the reasons. It was not being held in conjunction with a show.

Yes, Pony Finals is a success because the right audience is there. I think that's what you are getting at in your response. Being held at a show is a good thing.

But I looked through the catalog and many of the horses are unstarted or have no record other than DHSB classes. I cross checked some of the hunter/jumper horses that had statements claiming to have show records. Most of them didn't have a USEF registration in the name that they were selling under or if they did, they had no results. So as far as credibility this isn't much of an improvement. I really wish they would publish the USEF number ( or USDF or USEA ) in the catalog.

It may be just me but without a reliable way to verify the horses are what they are claimed to be I'm uncomfortable with the concept. If it's a horse that is under saddle a decision can be made on how the horse is presented but I just have this nagging worry about accuracy.

moonpie

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:00 PM

I am here at the sale and several of the horses are showing or have shown here at dressage at lexington. The quality of horses is fantastic and are from extremly reputable farms.

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:12 PM

How many people are at the preview?

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:21 PM

I have personally ridden some of the horses and watched one spectacular filly - by Rascalino - be backed for the first time a few weeks ago, so perhaps that is why I have a higher comfort level.

Part of the purpose of the sale IS to provide a venue for top quality youngsters to be sold. It is a response to what we hear over and over again from clients - clients who DO believe that breeders are producing high quality babies here, but who find it more convenient to buy young (including unstarted) horse abroad because one can see a selection of nice horses within a short drive of each other. As I said, the auction is trying to emulate the Elite German ones, which typically offer foals, mares, and young riding horses.

I think the H/J market is very different. Good horses that are out competing and doing well frequently sell by word of mouth; there is a much more effective network in place and less of a gap between seller and buyer as these people show side by side all the time. So yes, if I see a hunter in an auction, I do wonder why it was simply not sold ringside or within a trainer's barn.

Breeders who lack contacts with trainers don't have as many opportunities, and buyers have no way of knowing what is available unless they see it.

Anyway, if you have some suggestions regarding how to improve the sale or more effectively market the horses, I am sure that people would be interested in hearing them as they are trying to make this work.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:23 PM

I really wish they would publish the USEF number ( or USDF or USEA ) in the catalog.

That is a good idea for next year.

talloaks

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:25 PM

I noticed there were something like 13 or 14 horses in the catalog that did not have registration papers. I thought that was unusual only because I am under the impression that the horse auctions in Germany do not have unregistered or unpapered horses in the sale. I also was under the impression that this sale was to be modeled on the big successful auctions in Germany. ????

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:36 PM

Evergreen, your Rafikki was :eek: WOWZAAA!

Seriously. Spectacular. I hope he finds an amazing home.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

The sale itself can be seen this afternoon by clicking on the Virginia Sporthorse Sale
here:

http://www.horseauctions.com/

outstanding, thank you for the link....just got to hear Tim ? say
"two important sales times, 4:30 sale starts and the bar opens at 4:00.."

:lol::lol::lol:

by gawd, good job fellers !! you make me wish I was there:)

paintjumper

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

Is that the same place to watch the auction?

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 02:45 PM

Is that the same place to watch the auction?

I believe there is a separate link for the sale, as t hey had different icons to click on for the preview and the sale. The sale link can be accessed here:

http://www.horseauctions.com/

(Click on the Virginia Sporthorse Sale icon)

password

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:13 PM

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:25 PM

I really want this auction to succeed but have to say that I've been disappointed by the lack of owner response towards videos. As fantastic as the advertising has been, it's scary enough to buy a horse at auction without knowing how it moves and jumps ahead of time. The German auctions have videos so you can narrow down your favorites, get the X-rays E-mailed and reviewed, and buy online if necessary. Buying is always risky, but I wonder how many people hopped on a plane without this basic information. This might be one area that they could improve on that could really make a difference.

This is a biggie, and a very good point. One of the problems was that some of the participants only got involved in the last couple of weeks and are in the midst of breeding and show season. With better planning, hopefully next time each horse can have a video clip. A number of the horses do have video available on youtube or their farm websites, but I don't think that was made clear in the marketing materials so that is not that helpful. You should be able to link directly from the sales catalog to video.

FriesianX

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:27 PM

I am on the West Coast - and just recieved a catalog yesterday! We use to have a pretty nice quality auction here (at Glenwood Farms), but I think the last one was in 2001 (yikes, has it been that long)? Another breeding farm tried to start one up two years ago - there is a lot of time, money, and effort in putting one of these together, and the first few years, people are rather wary of bringing their horses in to an auction format. So they didn't repeat it last year:no:

I hope this is successful, would be nice to model another one on the West Coast!

Meanwhile, I too was puzzled by the "no papers" on several of the horses. Big question - is this because the owners have chosen to withhold the papers, or were these horses simply not registered to start with? Most seem to have bloodlines that would have been easy enough to register?

I'd also like to see video and more pictures available. Not that I'm in the market to buy anything right now;) And vet check information? Were the horses xrayed and basic PPE done prior to entry in the auction, or is it up to individual bidders to arrange that PRIOR to bidding?

I certainly hope this is a successful event and the start of something positive in selling young sport horse prospects!

KBEquine

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:37 PM

I'm not there but am sincerely hoping this auction gets off the ground & these nice horses go for way more than I could possibly afford! ;)

And I hope everyone gives the auction company kudos - I think with good suggestions, they will add the things buyers want to see for NEXT year's sale - registration numbers, videos, etc., etc.

And by then, sellers will have enough time to plan, to have videos, etc., ready for their horses.

Wishing the best to everyone (and hoping to have something to sell in this exact kind of environment, in the not-too-distant future).

Kim

Molly Malone

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:42 PM

48 minutes to go.

I'm going to bid on Davignport.

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:44 PM

Can someone update the selling prices as they sell here? I'd like to know how much some of them sell for.

Molly Malone

Jul. 11, 2009, 03:59 PM

If you click on the 'live' button, you'll get a live bidding screen, you don't have to be registered as a bidder to see the screen.

They are not selling in catalog order - eg Davignport is #5 in the sale and #1 in the catalog. First up A'Claim

paintjumper

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:03 PM

Going after the big guy!!! Best wishes!!!

talloaks

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:08 PM

Is the order of go the same as the INDEX TO SALE ENTRIES on page 14 of the catalog??? Davingport is the 12th one down. Okay, just figured it out, that is the alphabetical order of the horses in the auction!! DUH!! Sorry.
With the thunderstorms around now I hope I don't loose my satellite connection!! Wouldn't that be a bummer now!!

Molly Malone

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:10 PM

www.horseauctions.com/PAS_sale_order.pdf

for sale order

Cold Spring Farm

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:41 PM

Evergreen, your Rafikki was :eek: WOWZAAA!

Seriously. Spectacular. I hope he finds an amazing home.

Isn't he special?? And what a brain and attitude. NOTHING fazes him......he's just such a little cream puff...and boy, can he MOVE!! I hope he finds a truly fabulous home, too...he is just such a sweet guy!

woweezowee

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:54 PM

following it online -- very exciting! best of luck to the COTH bidders :)

Halfhalting

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:57 PM

A'Claim looks lovely! I'm looking forward to seeing Rumors.

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 04:59 PM

Hip 57 - $3400
Hip 56 - $2000
Hip 52 - $1900
Hip 44 - $7700
Hip 1 - $68500
Hip 25 - $1500
Hip 8 - $5000
Hip 43 - $1800
Hip 48 - $17500
Hip 2 - $8200
Hip 17 - $30500
Hip 55 - $1400
Hip 5 - $18000
Hip 10 - $3300
Hip 16 - $34000
Hip 49 - $6700
Hip 6 - $19000
Hip 15 - $16000
Hip 24 - $2000
Hip 30 - $17000
Hip 13 - $1500
Hip 31 - $4000
Hip 4 - $13000
Hip 19 - $2850
Hip 60 - $26000
Hip 27 - $1150
Hip 23 - $3100
Hip 18 - $10200
Hip 3 - $6700
Hip 53 - $1600
Hip 11 - $5100
Hip 35 - $3500
Hip 20 - $1100
Hip 47 - $4700
Hip 41 - $3900
Hip 34 - $5500
Hip 32 - $3400
Hip 50 - $1100
Hip 33 - $6500
Hip 22 - $1600
Hip 7 - $7700
Hip 12 - $3800
Hip 36 - $1000
Hip 39 - $1000
Hip 38 - $9300
Hip 40 - $1000
Hip 42 - $4700
Hip 61 - $9200
Hip 21 - $1800
Hip 46 - $3700
Hip 45 - no bids
Hip 54 - no bids
Hip 37 - no bids
Hip 58 - no bids
Hip 59 - 13500

Joanne

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:07 PM

I can't watch it as I'm not ready to buy yet.

Those are terrible prices. Did the consigners get to put a reserve on their horses?

Eyesontheground: Thanks for posting the prices.

KBEquine

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:10 PM

Yes - but some bidders don't put on a reserve, expecting better prices.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:17 PM

Davignport is in the ring now.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:27 PM

Davignport is at 65K now

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:30 PM

Going up $500 at a time is driving me batty!!! $67K now

RedMare01

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:32 PM

Sold at $68,500 ...wow, not bad. :yes: Good for them!

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:33 PM

$68500

genevieveg17

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:33 PM

Congrats to Lisa Smith! That was some exciting bidding!

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:35 PM

That was some good stuff!! Congrats Angela and Lisa Smith!!

Piaffe~Passage

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:49 PM

Watching the auction, and it's a good thing I'm broke at the moment!! :)

Piaffe~Passage

Jul. 11, 2009, 05:58 PM

Superstition is at $8200

Piaffe~Passage

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:05 PM

That Rascalla mare is beautifuL!!!

RedMare01

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:06 PM

Rascalla is at 30K...she was my pick out of the whole autcion. Glad she is selling well also.

Caitlin

RedMare01

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:08 PM

Sold for $30,500! :)

Caitlin

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:28 PM

Findamark is beautiful.

Is Fidermark semen available in the US?

Kinsella

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:32 PM

Is Rascalino frozen available here??

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 06:36 PM

Is Rascalino frozen available here??

Yea.. Rascalino to! :yes:

Schiffon

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:00 PM

Findamark is beautiful.

Is Fidermark semen available in the US?

No, not even available in Europe.

KBEquine

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:02 PM

Did anyone see what Wild Pearl went for? I stepped away & missed a few!

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:05 PM

Here's what I have so far. Too addictive! Seems the u/s horses are selling much better than the young horses. Had I registered I would be coming home with a trailer full of babies.

57 A'Claim 3,400
56 GiGi 2,000
52 G' Alexander RSH 1,900
44 Orions Belt Star 7,700
1 Davignport 68,500
25 Bush Park's Picture Perfect 1,500
8 Oria 5,000
43 Kuba 1,800
48 What About Bob 17,500
2 Superstition 8,200
17 Rascalla 30,500
55 Foremost 1,400
5 Starling 18,000
10 Libria 3,300
16 Findamark 34,000
49 Risky Business RSH 6,700
6 Rumors 19,200
15 Saranade 16,000
24 Bush Park's Grand Blue Moon 2,000
30 Wild Pearl 17,000
13 Bellini SG 1,500

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:24 PM

The prices for the nicest horses seem about "right". Don't you think?

The prices for the youngsters and other horses seem low. ???

Indy-lou

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:31 PM

The prices for the nicest horses seem about "right". Don't you think?

The prices for the youngsters and other horses seem low. ???

So far, that's my impression as well.

As an aside, I don't think this auction was marketed to the West Coast? I say that because I only stumbled across it when I happened to see Davignport advertised on Dreamhorse (on the day the auction organizers posted ads there) and followed the links to the auction site. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it.

KBEquine

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:38 PM

Agreed -

The really nicest horses are bringing value.

The gelding without papers but which appear to have size & temperament & could go show this season are bringing more than I expected.

The youngsters aren't doing as well - most people (who don't show in-hand) still don't want to pay board until they're ready to go out & show.

Piaffe~Passage

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:41 PM

The prices for the nicest horses seem about "right". Don't you think?

The prices for the youngsters and other horses seem low. ???

I agree, and there are some nice youngsters going threw. Wish I had the money, instead, I just sit and drool

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 07:52 PM

3300 for no. 35,, schooling prix stgeorge?

If I had signed up, I'd be bidding on this horse.

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:02 PM

3300 for no. 35,, schooling prix stgeorge?

If I had signed up, I'd be bidding on this horse.

Was lame in the demo. While selling they said he was recovering from an abscess and was guaranteed sound. I felt bad for him and probably would have brought him home, but not psyched about the rider riding the pants off of him obviously lame :no:

RedMare01

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:03 PM

3300 for no. 35,, schooling prix stgeorge?

If I had signed up, I'd be bidding on this horse.

But he is 17 years old and did they say he was a bit off from an abcess?. But I agree, worth more as a schoolmaster.

Caitlin

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:06 PM

Having just lost a 24 year old schoolmaster to a freak accident, this guy was worth more as a school master. he still has a lot of riding years left. abcesses heal oh well...

clint

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:15 PM

So far, that's my impression as well.

As an aside, I don't think this auction was marketed to the West Coast? I say that because I only stumbled across it when I happened to see Davignport advertised on Dreamhorse (on the day the auction organizers posted ads there) and followed the links to the auction site. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about it.

Somehow the auction people got my name and address and this west coast person received a catalog and updates, both email and snail mail. I think they did a great job promoting it, and if I had been in the market for a horse I would have made an effort to go, as there were certainly some lovely horses in it.

Oakstable

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:25 PM

Did the imports go for more than the domestically bred?

Any trends?

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 08:26 PM

General impressions:

Looks like hanoverians are selling for more.

The imports sold for more but they were also VERY nice.

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:23 PM

Ouch, just Passed 4 horses in a row. failed to make to minimum $1000 bid. Both the SF/DWB cross and the Paint/DWB cross looked nice enough. I guess people went home early???

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:27 PM

Final

Horse # Name Price
57 A'Claim 3400
56 GiGi 2000
52 G' Alexander RSH 1900
44 Orions Belt Star 7700
1 Davignport 68500
25 Bush Park's Picture Perfect 1500
8 Oria 5000
43 Kuba 1800
48 What About Bob 17500
2 Superstition 8200
17 Rascalla 30500
55 Foremost 1400
5 Starling 18000
10 Libria 3300
16 Findamark 34000
49 Risky Business RSH 6700
6 Rumors 19200
15 Saranade 16000
24 Bush Park's Grand Blue Moon 2000
30 Wild Pearl 17000
13 Bellini SG 1500
31 Katana 4000
4 Rachelrae 13000
19 Miche 2850
60 Karina 26000
27 Gee Whiz 1150
23 Bush Park's Fairy Tale 3100
18 Sable CR 10300
3 Seraphina 6700
53 Grace RSH 1600
11 Brystol SG 5100
35 Special Affect 3300
20 Labras Ena 1100
47 Domingo 4700
41 EF Rafikki 3900
34 Chase Lilo 5500
32 ISF Vivian 3400
50 Riccamente 1100
33 Isilmae 6500
22 Bush Park's Divine Intervention 1600
7 Spumonte 7700
12 Rochelle 3800
36 Liberty Knight 1000
39 Baily's Irish Cream 1000
38 Ghunslinger 9300
40 Perfekkt Harmony 1000
41 Tuxedo Park 4700
60 del Fino 9200
21 Bush Park's Carolyn's Jewel 1800
46 A Tribute 3700
45 Ginger Passed
54 Stormy Creek Passed
37 Gemma Passed
58 SR Spanish Saranade Passed
59 I'm Legit 13500

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:42 PM

I really enjoyed watching. I agree, nice horses went for decent money. The lower tiered horses went for less than I thought. But none of them went for so little I was shocked. In general, the horses that didn't sell were not the same quality as the others.

Oakstable

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:50 PM

I'm looking at sales that didn't cover the stud fee.

Granted, we're in the worst economy since the 30s.

(I wasn't around then, btw.)

Oakstable

Jul. 11, 2009, 09:59 PM

Does someone want to do an analysis on the sales by price?

Break it down by price categories.

How much of the bidding was over the phone?

How was the cocktail hour?

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:05 PM

Let me work on that Oakstable...I am not sure how much I can do. I wish I knew who is taking home what. I will report back momentarily.

RedMare01

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:18 PM

ASBJumper

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:43 PM

InstigatorKate -

No data on number 26, Louisiana?? Did she not get presented..?? :confused:

rightangles

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:45 PM

My family had horse there and are bringing it home and so are many others. A few brought decent money and most didn't sell or were basically stolen.

back in the saddle

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:50 PM

So even though the horse "sold", it may not have because of a reserve?

Were the reserves listed anywhere?

rightangles

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:53 PM

People don't list there reserve and yes many didn't sell. What was online was what price they were bid too.

ASBJumper

Jul. 11, 2009, 10:55 PM

aaargh... I am so curious to find out what happened with Lou.... anyone? were any of the of people posting on here AT the auction or watching the whole thing live...?

Molly Malone

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:17 PM

ASB - 8? horses were no shows before the auction and their numbers read out.

#26 wasn't in the line up/sale order, she never went through.

ASBJumper

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:24 PM

Thx, Molly!

I'll fire off an email to her owner. Hope nothing bad happened...!

InstigatorKate

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:24 PM

aaargh... I am so curious to find out what happened with Lou.... anyone? were any of the of people posting on here AT the auction or watching the whole thing live...?

She was never in the sales order. I believe she was an "out" ie either sold prior to the sale or withdrawn for another reason.

I only saw one horse that had "sold" that was listed with a price and then "passed" on the live internet list, that horse was Foremost at $1400. However, I would hope that some of the breeders would no-sale their babies. I was surprised the Sir Sinclair babies didn't go for more. Of course, the dam lines weren't notable (or even noted), and I couldn't see them in person, but he's been cleaning up at DAD with his babies

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:45 PM

Here is what I am looking at:

Overall Average (not counting the passed horses): $8404
High Sell: Davignport $68,500
Low Sell: Several $1000

One over $50k
Three btwn $50k and 25k
Five btwn $25k and 15k
Three btwn 15k and 10k
Eleven btwn 10k and 5k
Twenty eight under 5k

Yearlings: $3457
2 Yr Olds: $4475
3 Yr Olds: $10800
4 Yr Olds: $8217
5 Yr Olds: $18700
6 Yr Olds: $6343
7 Yr Olds: $2450
8-17 Yr Olds: $12083 (including High Seller)

Number with no papers: 13
Avg: $4330
High Seller: $17500

Number with papers: 35
Avg: $9246
High Seller: $68500

Breed Breakdown:
*There seemed to be some confusion in the catalog about OldNA and Gov. Some had "OldNA" registration numbers but the writeup said GOV. I did my best to try to figure out what they really ment.*
1 AWS
2 BWP
1 Conn
3 Dutch (several others had Dutch parentage but not Dutch papers)
13 GOV (???)
5 Han
1 ISH
5 OldNA/ISR
2 TB
1 Welsh
2 Westphalians
**Yes, some horses are missing. If they did not have papers proving what breed/registry I left them out of this count.

eyesontheground

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:46 PM

If you want to know something else, just ask me! I am tired of playing with the numbers. I am going to bed!

Carol Ames

Jul. 11, 2009, 11:51 PM

How? Who went?

Skeezix

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:21 AM

I was there and watched part of it before we had to leave.

The horses were stunning and beautifully turned out. Obviously their owners put a lot of time and effort into the sale. I got a chance to walk around a bit and see a number of the horses up close, watched them go in the outdoor ring and then for the on camera preview.

It was so disappointing to see the low prices on such really nice horses. Since I wasn't bidding and didn't want to be in the way, I stood at the back, so at times I am not sure who was bidding, but my perception was that the higher prices were being bid over the phone and on the internet.

I think big kudos should go to Professional Auction and the owners--very nice sale!

florida foxhunter

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:06 AM

I was impressed with the professionalism of the sale and the quality of horses too. My earlier comment about my "poor filly" wasn't about the auction per say, it was about what the mare has been through in the past year to get there (too many boarding barns with a very sick absentee owner --to the lady who healed her ulcers, but sold her quickly once again!)).
I was disappointed with the prices too, but not totally surprised, given the current horse market in general (and economy!) I really felt for the breeders who had the yearlings and two year olds that didn't even command the stud fees...........I think people are just hesitating to take on long term obligations in this questionable economy. Plus there probably weren't enough real prepared buyers there for the number of horses presented. (someone called me from the auction when it was beginning and thought they only saw about 30 standing there acting ready to bid) The internet bidding was a GREAT idea.......but perhaps many (including me) needed to see how it worked to get a comfort level with it. As long as you have someone who can check out the horse in person (or you know it) and transportation arranged, it's a great option!!

I'm very happy with who ended up the horse I'd bred and raised.....I think she\\\they got quite a bargain...and hope the story has a happy ending for them and the horse.
BTW, I believe she has RPSI papers, in addition to AWS???? (just for the record, not that anyone but me and the new owners care at this point, haha)

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:25 AM

I think big kudos should go to Professional Auction and the owners--very nice sale!

well I watched the whole thing as background from 4:30 on...despite a house FULL of company...the big stallion selling was when I got logged on...

funny, one of my (non horse non farm FL friends) said "are you listening to THAT?" and my sister rolled her eyes and said "dude,you don't even know...THAT will be on til it's over";)

I was actually pleased with it...as my friend exvet says often about shelter dogs:
"we can only place what society accepts"...well horse sales are the same way....you can only sell what society wants to buy...well folks babies under 3 and horses over 14 are not going to get a great shake as they are viewed as not a "good buy"...old punctures and scars on 4-5 yos are also not acceptable "buys"...

my only complaints/suggestion for improvement as an online viewer, was that for part of the sale the viewing was just awful...from the lighting, to the set up for moving all the way down the rail and back up....

but if I was an internet bidder I would have already had my mind made before I bought someone...it's not like buying cattle lots online after all....

PS Tim if you are ever hiring in TN let me know :lol:

best

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:18 AM

Eyesontheground.
Great analysis.

I've gone through and made notes on the pedigrees on most of the horses. I may have missed a few.

Horse # Name Price

57 A'Claim 3400 2002 dark hunter mare AWS
56 GiGi 2000 06 BWP

52 G' Alexander RSH 1900 07 gelding by Golfball
44 Orions Belt Star 7700 05 unk gelding
1 Davignport -high point price --***

25 Bush Park's Picture Perfect 1500 06 Pablo/TB mare
8 Oria 5000 96 KWPN Goodwill bred to Bergmon
43 Kuba 1800 99 unk Anglo-Trak gelding

48 What About Bob 17500 03 Hano/TB gelding over fences - shown
2 Superstition 8200 05 Old Sandro Hit/xx
17 Rascalla 30500 06 Rascalino Londonderry Weltmeyer 16.3 imp

55 Foremost 1400 05 bay gelding- Bavarian – mixed pedigree
5 Starling 18000 05 Stedinger in foal to Rosenthal
10 Libria 3300 93 mare bred to Calimero
16 Findamark 34000 04 mare Fidermarket Argentinus Rubenstein much shown

49 Risky Business RSH 6700 03 15.2H grey Riverman mare- shown 1st
6 Rumors 19200 04 Rosenthal
15 Saranade 16000 06 Samarantis Tantris 16.2 mare

24 Bush Park's Grand Blue Moon 2000 2007 filly Grandom/Fuerst Gotthard
30 Wild Pearl 17000 8yr mare Walzertraum 2nd level
13 Bellini SG 1500 08 Bergamon filly out of Rampal/Varius dam - shown
31 Katana 4000 06 Rolls Royce/tb

4 Rachelrae 13000 07 Rosenthal/TB filly
19 Miche 2850 02 mare by Weltmeyer/TB – needs exp rider
60 Karina 26000 15.2 mare by Relevant competed thr First one

27 Gee Whiz 1150 96 black Gonzo/TB
23 Bush Park's Fairy Tale 3100 04 grey mare Fuerst Gotthard/TB

18 Sable CR 10300 07 mare Stedinger/Sion
3 Seraphina 6700 08 Sinatra Song/Weltmeyer
53 Grace RSH 1600 07 Golfball filly out of QH hunter mare

11 Brystol SG 5100 2008 Bergamon mare
35 Special Affect 3300 92 Irish gelding PSG

20 Labras Ena 1100 03 ch Connemara mare 1st level
47 Domingo 4700 05 gelding by Domiro
41 EF Rafikki 3900 08 Rosental/Arab colt
34 Chase Lilo 5500 half Welsh
32 ISF Vivian 3400 02 chestnut mare by Akatschi schooling 1st and 2nd

50 Riccamente 1100 02 Reno mare in foal to Don Principe
33 Isilmae 6500 03 RPSI mare – solid over fences – junior/amateur
22 Bush Park's Divine Intervention 1600 08 grey filly

7 Spumonte 7700 08 Sinatra Song
12 Rochelle 3800 97 Rampal mar bred to Bergamon
36 Liberty Knight 1000 08 Liberty Gold colt

39 Baily's Irish Cream 1000 07 ISH gelding
38 Ghunslinger 9300 05 gelding Gold Luck/Fabriano/Wonderful
40 Perfekkt Harmony 1000 07 ch Arab-WB cross filly

41 Tuxedo Park 4700 00 unk paint gelding
60 del Fino 9200 06 Hano gelding, cribber
21 Bush Park's Carolyn's Jewel 1800

46 A Tribute 3700 TB gelding
45 Ginger Passed 05 ch mare Emilion/Galoubet
54 Stormy Creek Passed 94 TB mare

37 Gemma Passed – Alexander/unknown paint
58 SR Spanish Saranade Passed – Andalusian/TB
59 I'm Legit 13500 02 dark gelding, school 2nd, shown

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:30 AM

Rascalla was imported but I believe she was bred by Melanie Pai, who is American. Rascalla is a SUPER horse.

Regarding Karina, by Relevant, she is out of a Karon mare whose dam is Loretta (Sandro Hit's dam) (i.e., Karina's granddam is Sandro Hit's dam). Loretta produced Sandro Hit, Royal Hit, and Diamond Hit.

avadog

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:38 AM

Congrats to all the new owners. It seems like the prices were pretty good.

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:51 AM

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:54 AM

>>60 Karina 26000 15.2 mare by Relevant competed thr First one<<

I thought that was a decent price for a 15.2 well bred mare.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:09 AM

[QUOTE=Oakstable;4229593]Prices were brutal for the youngsters....$7700 for a Sinatra Song '08 youngster.

And $6700 for another '08 Sinatra Song out of a Weltmeyer dam.

true but....under standard WB thinking neither of these babies will have real "value" until they are started at 3 or 4...so that 's a lot of "input" that is going to go on between then and there on the part of the new buyers (feed,care,housing blah blah)

unlike a TB who would start rancing...the wait for return on investment is immense in this line of animals...

Even if some prices were disappointing to the point of heartbreaking, any feedback on sales in this market is welcome.

again I just don't see it that way...when the big stallion sold I was thinking
"DAMN now that is not bad at all for an open sale in the USA...not at all" I even said "well done fellers" and my company thought I was talking to myself :lol::lol::lol: but I am all about sales anyways...

I think that the warmblood people should look at this like a ray of hope not an Ebola outbreak or something...I have never seen such a thing for something like warmbloods here in the states...actual money...real money not "Scottsdale" money;) being paid right here...in what is a still shaky economy

organize all your breed factions and the import/domestic people together and you could really really have something...

now the caveat from me is, I don't "do" warmbloods...never have...but as an outsider I am really excited for you guys :yes::yes::yes: sincerely..I wish I could make a :yes: as big as this screen...that excited ...I just wish our Welsh could do the same...it won't happen in my lifetime but it's my wish...

keep going upward...keep improving...keep weeding...keep the support for the concept and don't let the "I need it now" mindset ruin what could be some thing that 10 years from now rivals anything anywhere else...:)

best regards

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:10 AM

Prices were brutal for the youngsters....$7700 for a Sinatra Song '08 youngster.

And $6700 for another '08 Sinatra Song out of a Weltmeyer dam.

I didn't receive any info about the sale other than the discussion here. I bid in one of Jeff Marsh's auctions many years ago and still get notices on his auctions.

Even if some prices were disappointing to the point of heartbreaking, any feedback on sales in this market is welcome.

I am not sure what the issue was with the babies but a couple of things spring to mind besides the fact that people are more inclined generally (and more so in a weak economy) to pick a horse they can get on and show next week, especially when the started horses were going for attractive prices. One is, sometimes it is hard for people to evaluate the quality of a youngster, especially ones going through gawky growth stages (like most yearlings, for example). Second, I have found that many riders - including upper level ones - are not familiar with bloodlines so a particular pedigree is not going to impress them. While I fully understand that it is the individual horse that stands before you that counts, when looking at a very young horse, it does help a lot to have familiarity with how its close relatives have developed from that stage. I do not think the very low prices for quality youngsters are reflective of the market generally as I know of very young ones (foal to 2 years) still selling at very good prices privately, but there are definitely fewer buyers out there. So, I was thinking among other things it would be helpful in the future to provide more information in the catalog about the bloodlines and competition successes of the horses' close relatives (Sir Sinclair is a good example; did anyone mention how well his offspring have done?).

VIDEOTAPE. As others mentioned, the availability of video clips for each horse is really important. I think these should be done in a standardized format, like the German catalogs, clearly showing all 3 gaits. And perhaps some stills (conformation shots of the horse and its parents) would be good. The internet feed needs some work; I have a brand new highspeed computer and internet connection and a very large monitor, and yet the quality of the footage was not good (grainy and dark). I knew a number of horses in the sale and without knowing them it would have been hard to evaluate them (having video clips available would have helped a lot to alleviate that problem, also).

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:23 AM

I watched most of the sale.
The video quality was not good. At mid point in the sale I switched to a different machine that has excellent video and there was no improvement in the picture.
I think it's great that Internet bidding was available but to make that an option for those who can't be at the sale the video needs to be better. Also a good shot of the horse standing up before it started it's laps around the ring would be helpful.

I noticed that some of the horses that were listed in the catalog as going under saddle were shown in hand. Perhaps that was because of the environment but it's a negative if an under saddle horse can't be shown that way to buyers.
I didn't watch any of the previews. Were more horses shown under saddle there?

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:30 AM

Wouldn't a "select" sale do better?

I don't know how such a thing would be organized without stepping on toes.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:42 AM

Wouldn't a "select" sale do better?

I don't know how such a thing would be organized without stepping on toes.

well you can't...that's what toes are for after all:)

BUT (to me,myself) this was the first time I have ever considered that WB may be a viable alternative to some other horse fancy...and I am sure I will not be the only one who thinks this out in J.Q Horse Public Land...did some people lose money...sure...will people lose money in the future...sure..but for the consignors in this sale in particular...you guys just made a bit of history for your WB's...that is how big I see this....

and sales are made up normally of 10% "draw" horses and 80% "interest" horses and 10% "fillers" and this sale seems to have ran just that way....

had I been King of the Universe ;) I would have provided a more restaurant style seating and atmosphere and well just a bit of "elegance" to the scene...get a caterer or someone to hire on...oh and not the worst economic times since the 1970's:lol:

I think the results show (esp for the 3-6 yos) is that the immediate future for the WB's is bright and vibrant...that people are looking forward...maybe not too far forward but still forward...when your shining stars are given away then you need to be worried....I did not see this

regards

password

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:57 AM

I am very excited by the results of this sale! If just my friends and I would have received a video previously, just the presence of a few more people bidding would have driven the prices up even higher. Multiply this by the rest of the country and the future surely looks brighter than it ever has for this type of venue. Some of the horses went for more than what they were available privately, which is what makes auctions exciting for the seller. All it takes is two people determined to have that same horse. :)

andy.smaga

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:17 AM

Great to see that US is moving toward auctions with quality horses offered.
It seems that a high percentage of the horses are Dressage oriented.
On our side of the ocean we are lucky to have this luxury from a long time, it help breeders by establishing a fair price and help potential buyers by avoiding a lot of travel to find quality horses.
In France, more than 90% of the horses offered are 3 y/o and jumper oriented, our local dressage market is very small.
The biggest sales is coming during the young horse finals at Fontainebleau (attract a lot of potential buyers) and the horses are severely selected (1 accepted out of 10 presented)
If you want to have an idea of what it is: http://en.fences.fr/index.php/Accueil

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:24 AM

If you want to have an idea of what it is: http://en.fences.fr/index.php/Accueil

hello Andy

can you tell me how long in advance of the sale are the individual sale pages for each horse posted ??? it is a great site and thank you for posting it

Cold Spring Farm

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:25 AM

Regardless, was this the best/most successful sporthorse auction put on in this country? From what I know of, it is. A great start.

I think the quality horses sold well. I'm sure there were exceptions among the others (probably mostly < 2 years old), but a lot of the horses bringing in the low bids didn't look that great and/or their pedigrees were questionable. I'm also sure some didn't meet their reserves...anyone know if there were RNA's? And how/if they'll be reported?

Caitlin

Not to get totally off-topic here -- but Glenwood Farm in Ca. (Volker and Judy Ehlers) put on some great sales in the mid to late 90's. IIRC, prices were fairly substantial and fairly consistent across the board.

Very festive atmosphere, great music playing during the sale, very upbeat presentation with fabulous decor, good lighting, champagne corks popping....there was alot of activity and one never got lulled to sleep at those sales.....definitely put people in the buying mood! Their sales had the feeling of a special event. The equine offerings where a combination of their stock and horses imported especially for the sale.

I wish I could get my hands on some of the results from those sales.....

Coppers mom

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:30 AM

The numbers were a bit disappointing. Looking through the catalogs, there were obviously different classes of horses, but I didn't think any would go for $1,000 or not sell at all. Glad we decided not to send any of our youngsters this year. I'd hate to have to spend the $400 to enter them, pay the aution it's comission, and not even have enough gas money to get home, let alone make up for the stud fee :no:

andy.smaga

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:40 AM

hello Andy

can you tell me how long in advance of the sale are the individual sale pages for each horse posted ???
Hello Tamara,
They post the individual pages about a month prior to the sale.

password

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:42 AM

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:49 AM

I have a faint memory of friends sending horses to the Glenwood sale or maybe another one a month early for sales prep. Was that standard, or maybe something that was just done privately? As much as I've complained about the lack of videos, I do realize what a burden it can be to get a decent video, especially knowing that it would be scrutinized.

A few months back some breeders had suggested getting together to do a sale video day, which would have provided a nice venue for the shoot and the possibility of sharing costs for the videographer, photographer, braider, professional rider, etc. Like Glamour Shots for horses. : ). It might be possible to do something like that in conjunction with the sale at a few venues a month or so in advance. It would be helpful to sellers to have good marketing materials even if the horses ultimately no saled at the auction.

Also, some had wanted to do a stallion presentation and gala in connection with this sale, but there was not sufficient time to pull it off. I do have some experience putting together these types of galas and I will say that they take an enormous amount of work and a fairly decent budget - a lot more than people realize, generally.

clint

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:51 AM

Wouldn't a "select" sale do better?

I don't know how such a thing would be organized without stepping on toes.

I wondered about that myself. I also wondered if fewer horses might have been better. When Glenwood put on their auctions there was a cutoff date for selection. All the horses were on site prior to the sale, with tryouts. They had two auctions a year towards the end, one for broodmares and young stock and the primary auction, in April, only for riding horses. There was a catalog with pictures mailed out several weeks prior to the sale. With the cutoff date for this auction being just a week prior, not all the horses made the catalog, so any out of area bidders had only the auction preview for those horses and as noted, the online feed for that wasn't the best. Glenwood had phone bidding as well during the auction, as these auctions were pre-internet bidding. As mentioned, it was a very festive affair with lots of champagne.:D There was no buyer's premium, but in state buyers had sales tax. Out of state buyers had no tax if they were shipping directly out of state.

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:17 PM

KBEquine

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:27 PM

I watched a lot of the auction online & think really, it was a great start toward what could become a great tradition & help for selling nice sporthorses in this country.

First, the location & timing was good - it was a great facility & some of the horses AND potential buyers already on the grounds - was brilliant.

Second, the ability to watch online & bid remotely - especially if you knew a horse person you trusted was onsite & able to check the horse out in person for you - was great.

I'd suggest 3 changes:

1. Earlier entries for more time before the auction to put out more information on each animal - videos, conformation shots, more information on WHY people should be impressed with the pedigrees & the like. Once everyone knows ahead of time about the auction, they can plan better to prep horses for the sale.

2. Make it a social event, as suggested - more comfortable seating, champagne (or at least wine & cheese), perhaps incorporate a charity auction - a few stallion owners donating breedings to the USDF or USEA or whatever, for example - to draw more people. This could be THE event, if done right. The possibilities are exciting.

3. Do 2 separate auctions - one for riding horses & the other for broodmares & youngsters. The audiences for the two are very different & a friend on the board of one of the big TB auctions told me two things (1) it takes about 5 years to establish a new auction site (so this truly is just a beginning); and (2) broodmares NEVER sell well until around November or thereafter - the new owners don't want to invest in open mares & carry them all summer & they want some immediacy in anticipating the foaling of a newly purchased in-foal mare.

In any event, I do think the sale was a good start, even in this economy.

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 12:43 PM

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein... "An auction is an auction is an auction";)

Reality is setting in and it shows in the prices. It's time for everyone to evaluate what they are doing, I know I am. :cool:

paintjumper

Jul. 12, 2009, 01:18 PM

with the prices for the babies and broodies and I have no idea why there were horses there without pedigrees. IMO that kinda cheapened the event. I know the economy was scary and I salute those of you that made an effort in this environment. I hope it is twice to three times as great next year with all the suggestions taken into account. Most definately the lighting needs to improve, about midway into the sale, when it began to get darker, I could only see the horses white leg bandages on my monitor! But all in all, a very good beginning.

florida foxhunter

Jul. 12, 2009, 01:28 PM

As for the social event part, as I was watching on line, a man walked closely in front of the camera with a plastic glass of what appeared to be wine <smile> so they must have made some sort of social effort...........Although, seriously, I know what you mean, but it takes time to have functions become the "happening place"...and create a social atmoshere. I wasn't there so perhaps there was one...or an attempt. I agree, though, it'd be even more of a help. I thought it was smart to tie in a sale with that lovely horse park and nice dressage show....

florida foxhunter

Jul. 12, 2009, 01:39 PM

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 12, 2009, 02:03 PM

The buyer of A'Claim got a great deal.......I sold her to her original owner as a greenie in the $20k's range.......before the market turned less than two years ago! She originally had AWS papers, but went on to be inspected and accepted by RPSI too! So I do think the current market took it's toll!

I saw this mare in the catalog and looked her up on USEF. It was hard to find her as her USEF name is A' Claim not A'Claim.

Her show record does not match what was in the catalog.
USEF has one show as a 2 yr old filly DHSB then a gap to 2008 with one show. At that show she has 5th and 6th out of 7 or 8.

Catalog says:
"She placed 1st at Upperville and 3rd in the International Hunter Futurity as a yearling. She has also always been in the ribbons at hunter shows in Georgia and Florida. She has lifetime registration in the Performance Horse Registry and the USEF."

In this case if the potential buyer could have spoken with the trainer or owner at ringside (what happens often in the H/J world in a sale ) it's possible the mismatch in info would have been resolved. IHF results aren't a problem, it's the 'has always been in the ribbons at hunter show'.. that sent up a flag. Maybe they were unrecognized shows? But then the catalog should say so or provide a USEF number for independent verification.

You are right, somebody got a good deal.

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 02:25 PM

There is a reason there were so many "unregistered" horses, what it was I haven't a clue....:winkgrin:

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 02:47 PM

I saw this mare in the catalog and looked her up on USEF. It was hard to find her as her USEF name is A' Claim not A'Claim.

Her show record does not match what was in the catalog.
USEF has one show as a 2 yr old filly DHSB then a gap to 2008 with one show. At that show she has 5th and 6th out of 7 or 8.

Catalog says:
"She placed 1st at Upperville and 3rd in the International Hunter Futurity as a yearling. She has also always been in the ribbons at hunter shows in Georgia and Florida. She has lifetime registration in the Performance Horse Registry and the USEF."

In this case if the potential buyer could have spoken with the trainer or owner at ringside (what happens often in the H/J world in a sale ) it's possible the mismatch in info would have been resolved. IHF results aren't a problem, it's the 'has always been in the ribbons at hunter show'.. that sent up a flag. Maybe they were unrecognized shows? But then the catalog should say so or provide a USEF number for independent verification.

You are right, somebody got a good deal.

I just ran a quick search on the COTH results tracker and found this:

Jacksonville International January 21-25, 2004 Yrl. A'Claim P. Brantley & Flying Colors Partners 2
Upperville Colt & Horse Breeding June 7-13, 2004 Non-TB Yrl. F. A'claim P. Brantly & Flying Colors Farm 2

Is that the same horse? There were another 17 pages or so of horses with similar names but I don't have time to sort through to see if there were additional results listed.

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 02:57 PM

There is a reason there were so many "unregistered" horses, what it was I haven't a clue....:winkgrin:

Well they had 80 spaces available and only had 55 horses to auction including the 13 or so unregistered horses. Guess you can say it was a financial matter for the auction company. No?

eponacelt

Jul. 12, 2009, 03:07 PM

I know at least one "unregistered" mare, actually is registered with the Arabian Horse Association, but was out of a nicely bred warmblood mare by Contucci. Why she was advertised as "no papers" is a mystery to me, other than that the AHA papers may have harmed the sale?

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 12, 2009, 04:14 PM

I just ran a quick search on the COTH results tracker and found this:

Jacksonville International January 21-25, 2004 Yrl. A'Claim P. Brantley & Flying Colors Partners 2
Upperville Colt & Horse Breeding June 7-13, 2004 Non-TB Yrl. F. A'claim P. Brantly & Flying Colors Farm 2

Is that the same horse? There were another 17 pages or so of horses with similar names but I don't have time to sort through to see if there were additional results listed.

Most likely it is. But those are HB classes. And USEF doesn't have a record. That's easily resolved. Maybe because of the spelling on USEF's records.
But as I said in my post:
"it's the 'has always been in the ribbons at hunter show'.. that sent up a flag."
That implies it has hunter results. Can't find any performance class results. THat's why I mentioned the lack of USEF numbers earlier in this thread. If the numbers were in the catalog and a potential buyer could do verification with good results then the claims in the catalog can be verified. If not, then it's best for the buyer and seller to have a chat.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 04:24 PM

Most likely it is. But those are HB classes. And USEF doesn't have a record. That's easily resolved. Maybe because of the spelling on USEF's records.
But as I said in my post:
"it's the 'has always been in the ribbons at hunter show'.. that sent up a flag."
That implies it has hunter results. Can't find any performance class results. THat's why I mentioned the lack of USEF numbers earlier in this thread. If the numbers were in the catalog and a potential buyer could do verification with good results then the claims in the catalog can be verified. If not, then it's best for the buyer and seller to have a chat.

I completely agree re the USEF numbers; it really is better for everyone to have that info available, especially in the case of names that could cause confusion.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 12, 2009, 04:30 PM

I noticed that some of the horses that were listed in the catalog as going under saddle were shown in hand. Perhaps that was because of the environment but it's a negative if an under saddle horse can't be shown that way to buyers.

I have a friend that was there, and she felt that the undersaddle horses' prices were really hurt by only showing them in hand.

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 04:46 PM

I think you're all reading more into it... the economy sucks, and perception is that horses are over-priced. I wouldn't want to be a breeder in these times.

I also had several firends there, and they were actually disappointed with a majority of the horses. I also agree with Pine Tree that vague advertising didn't help things... whether the horses had a show record, or were premium & elite... didn't much matter.

That does not make it a bad sale. It sounds like it was a great venue. Like anything other sales event... you need customers! :cool:

florida foxhunter

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:08 PM

Since it was asked above, for the record, A'Claim placed second at Upperville in Hunter Breeding when I owned her, and was part of the duo who won Claim to Fame 1st in Best Get of Sire. I think I may have shown her a few times in FL in Hunter Breeding before I sent her to VA with Oliver Brown. She missed Devon because of a splint (and we decided not to send her blemished.) As a matter of fact, she still had that splint when she had those nice wins at Upperville., She was that gorgeous~~ Oh, she also did well in the IHF in Warrenton too. Luckily, the splint finally went away. It never caused a problem, only the blemish.
She came home and was started under saddle here. I rode her a few months. Then I sold her to a lady from Atlanta who placed her with an A trainer. I lost track for awhile until I was told the owner was quite sick.......I do know that they had a young (13ish) girl show her some.......but don't know much about that part of her show history.
I had nothing to do with what was stated in the catalog. If I had, I would also corrected the "registered AWS" part for RPSI (full warmblood papers). I think the consigner was going on recollection and thought she was accurate. She probably didn't want to bother the lady in Atlanta for obvious reasons.
I never saw the catalog so don't know what was in there...........but she also won an unrated show (but with a R Judge judging) in Dressage Sport Horse Breeding with an 81.5% as a two year old.
She's a very comfortable, pretty and sweet mare. I only want the best and kindest of homes for her and all of my foals (as all of us breeders do) I'm glad she is with her new owners now......it was a very nice auction, but I agree with Bill.........they probably needed more customers!!

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:17 PM

A'Claim was the buy of the century. Her breeder is someone I would not hesitate in recommending to anyone. I just wish I had bought a certain horse from her 2 years ago... ;)

paintjumper

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:23 PM

being shown in hand?? It was obvious from the internet and probably moreso on site that the horses shown U/S were bringing more than the horses lead. Even if I had made that decision earlier (to show in hand) as an owner I would have saddled up mine after the first few went in. I thought that was odd at the time.

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:32 PM

The order of go in an auction means a great deal to the successful sale of a horse. You probably want to be in the first third of horses to go or at least in the first half. Seems as if after the first half go, the prices or buyers just fall away. I don't know how this auction company selects which horses go first or last but it would be interesting if one were consigning to have some idea of where you might be. Also the first horse is always at a disadvantage too.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:44 PM

I don't know how this auction company selects which horses go first or last but it would be interesting if one were consigning to have some idea of where you might be. Also the first horse is always at a disadvantage too.

normally, it's alphabetical order with multi horse consignors split apart....but people stick around for who they had in mind...only lookie lou-s wander off and they don't spend money

best

Signature

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:48 PM

I think the reason for most prices being lower than market value is that it's a big leap of faith to go to an auction and bid a large amount of money on a horse you've only seen for a couple hours with no vet check. It's like gambling.

Yes, there is a vet on site that can examine the horses but what if you pay the vet to look at 3 or 4 horses and then get outbid on every one of them? That's an expensive proposition. So, most are likely bought without vet checks and therefore people are not willing to fork out as much $$$, just mitigating the risk.

If I understand correctly, in the German auctions people are allowed to visit the horses for a week (?) ahead of time and see them/ride them multiple times if desired, plus all horses come with a vetting and xrays. I think if at least a vetting was required as part of the sale entry and it was available to buyers in the sale office, people would be willing to spend a bit more, considering the risk has been reduced. There are two reasons why horses are in auctions, 1. there is something wrong with it and 2. someone just plain needs to sell. You have the task to figure out if it's 1 or 2.

There is no benefit to the buyer to pay "full price" at an auction, taking on all that risk, when they can shop privately and try the horse multiple times, have a thorough vetting, xrays sent to their vet, and so forth for the same price.

The price of the horses is usually determined by how risky a buy they are. No knowledge of the horse + no vetting = automatically less than market value due to risk involved. If it's a baby, that's even more risk. I think that's why youngsters don't sell well at auctions. Plus, people come there looking for useful horses to ride, and most don't have big farms to turn out babies for years to grow up. You can see what brings the most money, well bred, nicely trained quality riding age horses.

Therefore, for the auctions to really bring the highest prices I think any way the risk to the buyer can be reduced will be beneficial. Vettings available, more time to try horses, and so forth. Otherwise, you'll continue to see sale prices probably at 50% or less of true value. Just think about going out and spending $20,000 or so on a horse you've seen for an hour and never had a vet look at. ;) But, would you pay $5,000 for that horse that should be $20,000 with no vetting? Probably :)

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:55 PM

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:59 PM

normally, it's alphabetical order with multi horse consignors split apart....but people stick around for who they had in mind...only lookie lou-s wander off and they don't spend money

best

No, this sale was definitely not in alphabetical order at all.

Signature

Jul. 12, 2009, 05:59 PM

Nope, no vettings that I can tell. Some of the descriptions said xrays available, but in general no vet reports are required to enter the sale if you read the terms.

Of course, a seller that has 4-5 horses in the sale could spend thousands doing vettings and radiographs, only to have the horses not sell anyway. So, it's definitely a double edged sword.

I personally would be much more likely to spend more on a horse if I could read a vetting report and have xrays to review on site with a vet (which I read one would be on site). However, you never know if the vet report was fudged either perhaps if the owner had connections. Still risky... but maybe a bit less.

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:04 PM

You mean the horses were not pre-vetted?

One consignor had a boatload of horses in the sale and they went cheap, or passed out. If she had to have radiographs on file for all of them, wow, did she lose money.

How much did it cost to enter a horse in this auction?

It was $400 to consign a horse but some dollars off if you had several. Then of course there was the 10% fee if it sold, etc etc etc.

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:07 PM

They really needed to hire a copywriter.

Pedigrees MUST be detailed in full.

Horses with no pedigree are not entered. Sorry.

I didn't look at any of the videos so cannot comment, but the photos were within professional standards.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:09 PM

No, this sale was definitely not in alphabetical order at all.

yes it was....the entry form said so clearly "ponies horses name in alphabetical order starting with the letter W"

Tamara in TN

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:12 PM

It was $400 to consign a horse but some dollars off if you had several. Then of course there was the 10% fee if it sold, etc etc etc.

http://professionalauction.com/09_PDF/09Vsum.pdf

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:37 PM

There are two reasons why horses are in auctions, 1. there is something wrong with it and 2. someone just plain needs to sell. You have the task to figure out if it's 1 or 2.

That was not true of a number of the horses in this auction. Several very good farms generously got behind the auction, knowing that this year was likely a building year, in order to establish a viable venue for sporthorse sales moving forward. There was nothing wrong with the horses consigned and a number of the consignors, at least, were not hard pressed for cash (though some likely did need to sell).

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:51 PM

They really needed to hire a copywriter.

Pedigrees MUST be detailed in full.

Horses with no pedigree are not entered. Sorry.

Yes, if you know the pedigree by all means detail it in full.

But if the horse is a performance horse then a requirement for a pedigree isn't appropriate as the horse is being sold on peformance.
Perhaps if it's a broodmare sale or a young horse sale then a requirement for a pedigree makes sense.

I noticed one horse with no verifiable pedigree and an unverifiable performance record sold for a reasonable price.
It was a nice horse too.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 06:55 PM

Yes, if you know the pedigree by all means detail it in full.

But if the horse is a performance horse then a requirement for a pedigree isn't appropriate as the horse is being sold on peformance.
Perhaps if it's a broodmare sale or a young horse sale then a requirement for a pedigree makes sense.

I agree.

QHmom

Jul. 12, 2009, 07:01 PM

Flying Colors:
I am so confused here, you were not selling the mare, just the breeder of the horse. You sold the mare, who has been through several owners? The Latest owner consigned the mare for the sale . I cant help but feel bad for the consigner after reading your posts. They obvioulsly sold the horse for a reason. What I want to know is why are you so upset by their decision. You sold the mare, then helped get her placed again. I mean , that is great of you, but if the owners could not keep her, why make it look bad on here. The sale was fantasic for the economy, the horse( like you said ) went to a good home...enough said. But judging people for thier choices is morally wrong. I know the whole story behind the mare, I hope she went to a good home( which you have stated the fact too) and I am most happy for the consigners as the mare sold!

Tiki

Jul. 12, 2009, 07:28 PM

There are two reasons why horses are in auctions, 1. there is something wrong with it and 2. someone just plain needs to sell. Well, see, that's the problem with auctions in this country. They very definitely seen as a way to dump things. Can't sell your house, have a real estate auction. Can't sell your old junk, take it to an auction house.

Only expensive antiques and TB's seem to do well at auctions in this country.

The horses weren't vetted, didn't come with x-rays, didn't have a rider or 2 to show them off professionally, presented them in hand. Could possibly ride them a little bit (don't know, I wasn't there, but you can at Frying Pan Park). Don't have validated show records.

In Europe, people go to see and buy top horses, with a chance to see them ridden professionally and to try them if they want. They can see vet reports and x-rays (although done to a different standard than here), have validated show records, pedigrees, results from ancestors, descendants and siblings available. Have a posh atmosphere.

Every one in this country wants a bargain and the auction is the best place to get in in everyone's mind. I've never seen Findamark go, but with her show record in the Young Horse Classes, unless she looks like dog food on the hoof - which I sincerly doubt - her price should have started at about twice what she sold for and gone up from there. I thought the prices were horrible, and apparently a lot of the horses really did not sell for those prices. What a shame to put all that money and time into it. $400 to enter. Trailering and hotels and meals and shipping to get the horse there. A No Sale fee if the horse didn't sell.

I tried a couple of auctions - 2 versions of 'Invitation Only' auctions and a couple of others. Never, ever again. I think it's going to be a very, very long time before an auction venue is an acceptable way of selling a quality horse for a fair price in this country. Some of you are saying that this auction will set the market price. BULLDUST! Apparently there were only about 30 people there and probably not a lot of call-in/internet bidders. That's more like a disposal sale than a quality sport horse auction. That doesn't set the price of anything. I don't know what Angela was hoping for on the sale of Davignport. Yes, he is 17, but he's got a good record and he produces really nice foals. I would have expected he'd go for more too - unless he's developed maintenance issues. I would expect she was trying to provide a nice horse to help this work. Hmmmmmmmm.

Unfortunately, I'm not really surprised at how poorly it turned out.

Donella

Jul. 12, 2009, 07:33 PM

Every one in this country wants a bargain and the auction is the best place to get in in everyone's mind. I've never seen Findamark go, but with her show record in the Young Horse Classes, unless she looks like dog food on the hoof - which I sincerly doubt - her price should have started at about twice what she sold for and gone up from there. I thought the prices were horrible

I agree with that!!

There are two warmblood auctions up here and neither of them are very good, and one is just ridiculous. It's too bad.

SilverBalls

Jul. 12, 2009, 07:38 PM

Marydell

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:16 PM

I was present for the first third of the auction. It drew me there as well as having Lexington withdrawal and a neighbor gettting injured during the breed show.

We arrived Sat AM and there were under saddle presentations in an arena just behind the grandstands- a bit out of the way and not clearly marked. BUT a good size ring, jumps were available and riders had ample time to show the horses.
The announcer gave discriptions of each horse.

I do not know if anyone could try them at this time as I was just there to observe.

There was another presentation in the sales ring in the afternoon for the internet audience. I was told that any horse that was under saddle was ridden at this time.

My husband and I walked the barns about 2 hours before the sale began. All the horses were clean, and owners/agents standing by to answer questions. The sale vet was on site answering questiosn to potential buyers on the phone as we walked by one stall.

While there were many very good things about this auction, there were just as many that could have been done a bit differently to help make this sale a bit more "accessable"(sp)
For one- hold it later at night, not while the dressage show was still ongoing. Some trainers were occupied coaching clients and could not come either to the preview or sale. Hold it in an indoor arena rather than a lesser barn/arena--place more tables and flowers around--to pretty it up.
The majority of people at the auction were there to see Davignport, not anything else. A large amount of folks left right after he was knocked down.
The two mares, Findamark and her stablemate Rascalla were top, top quality and absolutly should have sold for more than $50,000 each.
Some of the horses that were old enough to be ridden were wisely not shown that way during the sale becasue they were young and tired from the earlier exhibitions. It is a proven fact that at the auctions in Europe have lower bids on horses that do not move well during the actual auction.

There were many fine horses offered and it was very sad to see that none of the younger horses were appreciated. We left becasue I could not look at the owner's faces any longer.

I hope that this type of quality auction continues. But buyers need to support it as well as sellers.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com
2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!

moonpie

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:19 PM

I attended this auction and actually it seemed that PAS was happy with the way it turned out. Horses definitely sold for much more at this sale than any of the other PAS sales to my knowledge to date, and I always attend them. At the other sales usually one horse sells in the 15k to 20k range and all others are pretty low...

Unfortunately it's true that auctions in this country are viewed as a way to dump stuff. It's like if you can't sell it, send it to auction. That means it's lame or crazy usually... However, take a look at the QH and trail horse auctions. That section of the horse population truly believes in the auction process as a competitive environment with people bidding against each other for quality horses. If you look at the results of PAS's other western-geared sales you'll see that many of the safe family type horses sell for more there than quality warmblood youngsters and some of the riding horses at this weekend's sale... The horses at those sales really sell closer to their market value. There is just not the same trust factor in the hunter/jumper/dressage segment obviously.

I think Tiki amplified another poster's point by mentioning the vetting and riding aspects. Unless the horses come with full vettings and can be ridden enough to satisfy a potential buyer's concerns, I can't see someone parting with a large amount of money... Why would they?? Ok, so if they are not at the auction because they have a problem... then why would anyone pay to enter if they didn't need to sell? I personally wouldn't just put my horse in an auction to spend weeks preparing, all the expenses to get there and enter, if I didn't really need to sell it???

I have also been to the Eurosport Auction put on by Jeff Marsh several times... it is done in a European fashion and those horses are brought in 2+ weeks ahead of time and professionally prepped for the auction. They are physically tidied up and ridden by pros who are assigned to certain horses and people can come many days in advance and test ride any of the horses. The riders can really make the horses look fabulous and bring out their best, which certainly adds value. All the horses are required to have pre-purchase reports based on a standard form sent out by the auction to be completed by the vet, and certain radiographs are expected. It's nice to walk into the office and view the vetting of any entry! It really puts your mind at ease that the horse is truly sound and capable and not "being dumped" for a bad reason. They also won't accept just any horse into the sale... While those results are not published to the public usually, I have seen many a horse go for 50, 75, 85k there. They make an attempt to prove to you that the horses are legit. Yes, it's expensive for the seller so that's one unavoidable factor.

Another thing, these people aren't forced to sell the horses. People act like they got jipped or something?? That means when the hammer fell and seller said sold, they must have felt ok selling for that price, for whatever reason... And yes, everyone comes to these things looking for a deal or a diamond in the rough. That's part of the excitment! Otherwise why go if you could just shop for full price horses at your own pace?

I thought I heard the auction personnel talking and saying they were going to do it again, so more power to them, I thought they did an excellent job for the first go-round. I think the stallion sold for well more than the reserve so the seller was very pleased.

QHmom

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:47 PM

I am not the owner of the mare who sold- nor do I have any ties to here other than being an observer....

Oakstable

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:51 PM

It's a start and there are a lot of good suggestions coming up in this thread.

I don't know if Judy Ehlers would be available to consult but I sure would try hard to see what worked and didn't work with their auctions. Pay her for her expertise, not just pick her brain (hate that saying).

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 08:56 PM

Tiki

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:23 PM

Another thing, these people aren't forced to sell the horses. People act like they got jipped or something?? That means when the hammer fell and seller said sold, they must have felt ok selling for that price, for whatever reason... Ummmmm, not necessarily. I think a lot of people selling horses there tried very hard to provide really nice horses to hopefully get a good auction venue off the ground in this country. And, as was noted above, some of those prices were the highest prices reached, not all of those horses sold. Then they buyer has the full expense of shipping, entry fees, hotels and meals only to bring the horse back home. Sure, some people may have seen a place to try to sell a horse they couldn't sell at home, but I believe a lot of people tried to support what they thought would be a good auction at a good venue - DAL. Looks like they have a lot more work to do to make it worth while. And yes, everyone comes to these things looking for a deal or a diamond in the rough. That's part of the excitment! Otherwise why go if you could just shop for full price horses at your own pace?
Well, because you could see 50 - 80 horses all in one place - which is one of the biggest whines buyers have in this country. You have to travel sooooooo far to see only 1 or 2 horses.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:28 PM

The reason for shopping at a sale is because of all the complaints over the years if running all around the country to view one horse here and another one there. Then trainers get frustrated, and head for Europe where they can see many horses in a single place. That is what we hope to accomplish with a valid Sporthorse auction.

Don't even get started on Jeff Marsh's sales. Those sales are NOTHING like European sales. I still have the scan of the catalog from last fall that was mailed 3 days before the auction, that was unreadable, no internet site, no photos (or worse, photos of RELATIVES of the sale horses).

How is that like European sales?!?!

The PAS sale was created in RESPONSE to the P*ss poor job Jeff Marsh does, with nice horses not selling for what these did.

Do changes need to be made? Sure, but it is a start, and they ARE listening to us, unlike Jeff who does the same garbage year after year.

What needs to be improved is
Horses arriving at least several days prior to the auction
Requirement of good photos, video clip, and vetting report and basic x-rays
Trial days (maybe horses in place by Wed evening, tryouts Thursday and Fri
Definitely evening in the main arena with a plan of about 25 horses accepted
Focus on Riding horses & limit the number, so it will be a shorter time frame, and buyers will be willing to stay to see it all
Any horse shown in hand at the time of auction should have a video playing of them under saddle at various places, easily seen by bidders.

With a smaller sale, it has to be thought of as a building block - NOT all will be accepted
Horses accepted need to have GOOD video and photos online at least a month before the auction date - time enough to not pay huge last minute flight fees.

Limit the focus to one type (riding horses age 3 to 10?)

This smaller auction may not be the comfort level of profit, but it is better to build for the future, an ELITE auction with bidders competing for the excellent quality horses.

Reasons for putting a horse in the auction? I wanted to send one of mine to this auction, but I had a family wedding to attend. The one I wanted to send was my BEST sale horse. I had hopes of getting a big price, and I believe that is what he would have gotten, but he would have had a large reserve. My bigger goal was to get him in front of a large audience.

Coppers mom

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:36 PM

Well, see, that's the problem with auctions in this country. They very definitely seen as a way to dump things. Can't sell your house, have a real estate auction. Can't sell your old junk, take it to an auction house.

Only expensive antiques and TB's seem to do well at auctions in this country.

The horses weren't vetted, didn't come with x-rays, didn't have a rider or 2 to show them off professionally, presented them in hand. Could possibly ride them a little bit (don't know, I wasn't there, but you can at Frying Pan Park). Don't have validated show records.

In Europe, people go to see and buy top horses, with a chance to see them ridden professionally and to try them if they want. They can see vet reports and x-rays (although done to a different standard than here), have validated show records, pedigrees, results from ancestors, descendants and siblings available. Have a posh atmosphere.

Every one in this country wants a bargain and the auction is the best place to get in in everyone's mind. I've never seen Findamark go, but with her show record in the Young Horse Classes, unless she looks like dog food on the hoof - which I sincerly doubt - her price should have started at about twice what she sold for and gone up from there. I thought the prices were horrible, and apparently a lot of the horses really did not sell for those prices. What a shame to put all that money and time into it. $400 to enter. Trailering and hotels and meals and shipping to get the horse there. A No Sale fee if the horse didn't sell.

I tried a couple of auctions - 2 versions of 'Invitation Only' auctions and a couple of others. Never, ever again. I think it's going to be a very, very long time before an auction venue is an acceptable way of selling a quality horse for a fair price in this country. Some of you are saying that this auction will set the market price. BULLDUST! Apparently there were only about 30 people there and probably not a lot of call-in/internet bidders. That's more like a disposal sale than a quality sport horse auction. That doesn't set the price of anything. I don't know what Angela was hoping for on the sale of Davignport. Yes, he is 17, but he's got a good record and he produces really nice foals. I would have expected he'd go for more too - unless he's developed maintenance issues. I would expect she was trying to provide a nice horse to help this work. Hmmmmmmmm.

Unfortunately, I'm not really surprised at how poorly it turned out.

I completely and utterly agree. The company kept emphasizing that whatever incredibly low number was called out, that was the fair market price for that day! Yeah right! We sell babies for far more than what comparable foals sold for at this auction, clearly, what the auction brought was not the fair market price.

I don't think auctions are going to work over here. We don't have the base that Europe does, we don't have the tradition, we don't have the sheer number of quality horses, we really don't have anything to try and make it comparable to the auctions in Europe. And with disappointing results like this over and over again, it's not going to encourage anyone to enter their horse, and will ony encourage people even more to go and look for a steal.

talloaks

Jul. 12, 2009, 09:58 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:19 PM

Back to the auctions with Jeff Marsh, Hans always brings over a fine collection of horses from Germany which is really the drawing card for the sale.

And that is fine, but they should just sell those 5 or 6 ?, rather than taking people's money, and not doing anything to promote the other horses in that sale. What he does is use the other 20 horses entry fees ($10,000) to pay the sale expenses, so US sellers basically finance the sale for the imports that do end up selling for decent money. Last year, I remember US sellers being devastated at their losses.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:21 PM

Just looking through the sales catalog with the prices included it appears, not surprizingly, that the highest sellers were imported. Not sure if Findamark was imported but probably so. At least in the age range the imported ones had a higher sold price. If they weren't no saled.

. . . . .
So since not all horses are imports, North American breeders will have to try harder or smarter to figure out a way to sell their/our stock.

Just an FYI, as I said before, Rascalla, I believe, WAS bred by Melanie Pai, an American. She is out of Lisa, Melanie's Londonderry x Weltmeyer mare, that resides in Germany. I seriously doubt that people pay extra for the fact that some of her mares reside in Germany and some here, but if they do, that is pretty sad. And that horse, by the way, is worth at least double the amount reached in bidding.

Findamark was also bred by Melanie to my knowledge. She is out of Melanie's Argentinus x Rubinstein mare that she keeps in Germany so she can be bred to stallions difficult to obtain here, and she imports them as foals. Findamark was 2006 USDF/DSHB 2 year old filly of the year and had wins at Devon. The Pais' horses are started and trained here in this country by their very capable staff. These are not examples of young horses started in Europe and imported, or even ones that are bred by Europeans.

Karina, the Relevant x Karon mare out of the daughter of Loretta (by the way, likely the only Loretta daughter in this country) was bred, raised, and trained by Terry Smith right here in Virginia. That is a top quality mare that top name trainers and riders have drooled over at shows and in clinics. She is wonderful to ride and has her changes, a beautiful half pass, and is starting half steps now. She is so well-mannered that recently a 9 year old showed her when her pony was injured right before a show at Morven.

With respect to the unstarted youngsters, there are buyers out there, but apparently the auction was not reaching them effectively. I have had many inquiries and people out to the farm to see my horses this summer and my prices are at the high end for foals. I have not had anyone complain about the pricing or suggest that the prices were out of line with the quality. I know of recent sales (in the last month) for good prices in any economy for well bred, correct, and high quality foals (13k - 19K). I do think there are fewer buyers out there now, and probably fewer interested in investing in the very young ones, but there definitely are still people out there.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:31 PM

I think there have been a lot of constructive suggestions on this thread. I will point out, however, that some of the suggestions would be costly to implement, and I do not think it is realistic to expect sellers to shell out even more money hoping to entice buyers with some magic formula of window dressing. At some point, buyers have to learn how to evaluate a horse and it is a pretty sad state of affairs if people are more motivated to bid because of fancy trappings (though I do not deny that that is frequently the reality).

Carol Ames

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:51 PM

Several very good farms generously got behind the auction, knowing that this year was likely a building year, in order to establish a viable venue for sporthorse sales moving forward. There was nothing wrong with the horses consigned and a number of the consignors, at least, were not hard pressed for cash (though some likely did need to sell). http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4230723)

Carol Ames

Jul. 12, 2009, 10:53 PM

Carol Ames

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:00 PM

(although done to a different standard than here), have validated show records, pedigrees, results from ancestors, descendants and siblings available. Have a posh atmosphere.It seems to me that the sellers should put together such information and have it available for buyers to see at the sale; :yes: look how the Thoroughbred people do it!:yes:

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:14 PM

Does anyone remember Joan Irvine's sales at The Oaks (I do). I just pulled this old press release, circa 1997:

The Oaks Third Annual
Premiere Sport Horse Auction
Created: Sunday September 7, 1997 - 7:40:50 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Record price of $43,000 for two year old by South Pacific

Joe Montana buys sale topper Chaka Khan for $75,000

San Juan Capistrano, CA - Joan Irvine Smith and her staff at The Oaks training farm here in San Juan Capistrano, California, held their third annual Premiere Sport Horse Auction on Saturday, August 16, 1997 under the expert management and administration of Jeff Marsh and his Eurosport Auctions of Culpepper, VA. The auction is the latest step in Smith's plan to develop an American sport horse to rival the Europeans. Many of the horses offered were her own homebreds by Holsteiner stallions out of thoroughbred and warmblood mares. Smith hosted more than 1,000 buyers, sellers and spectators to cocktails and hors d'oeuvres during the auction, which was held under the large California oak tree for which the farm is named. Although The Oaks auction is still quite new, it drew prospective buyers from around the U.S., Canada and Mexico. This was due to the successful show records of many of the horses sold at the two previous auctions. These horses include, among others, Full Cry, sold in 1995, who has consistently been a champion in amateur/owner hunters on the east coast in 1996 and 1997, and Atlas, sold in 1996, who won the $50,000 Grand Prix of Tampa and also won in Europe this year.
While the older horses drew the highest sale prices, a two year old gelding, Sea Spray, became the star of the sale when he sold for $43,000: -- a Eurosport Auctions record for a two year old, according to Marsh. Sea Spray is by South Pacific, The Oaks' flagship stallion, out of Daisy II an Oldenburg mare. When asked about the sale, Smith said, "It's a great deal of money for a warmblood two year old, but this horse is an outstanding individual and was bred to be a champion. His bloodlines include Cor de la Bryere, Silbersee and Prinz Gaylord. Also, we had about a dozen bidders interested which pushed the price up, but that's what makes an auction exciting."

The highest prices were brought in by: Chaka Khan, an 8 year old Holsteiner stallion by Cor de la Bryere - $75,000; Orlando, a 12 year old Holsteiner gelding by Othello - $74,000; and Sanskrit, a 4 year old stallion by Solid Silver - $70,000.

Joe Montana (of football fame) and his wife, Jennifer, were the top bidders with their purchase of Chaka Khan. Their trainer, Charles White, said, "we held off buying until today because the quantity and the quality of horses offered here made it more practical to come to this event rather than visit a number of places over several weeks."

According to Marsh, a total of 39 horses were offered: 27 were sold: total sales were $629,410; average overall sale price was $23,311: average sale price for two year olds was $16,238, which is also a new record average price for two year olds at Eurosport Auctions.

Plans are already underway for the next Oaks Premiere Sport Horse Auction which will be held August 15, 1998. For more information call The Oaks at (714) 240-9335.

Bellfleur

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:23 PM

I was actually one of the consigners at this auction (even though I only found out about it 3 weeks before) and the only reason I and Findamark's owner sent horses to this sale was to support the warmblood /sport horse auctions in the USA. We had no pressing need to fire sale any of our horses.

The many breeders that were involved thought we needed to start somewhere and that if we did not ever send top horses then we would not ever have a chance of getting an auction off the ground in this country. Some of the horses bred by American's that were entered were definitely of the same quality as the ones found in German Elite Auctions.

When buyers hear of this auction next time and say hey maybe I can look for a top horse and I want to support an American Elite Auction so I will go and at least look! We need a way to get a lot of good horses in one place for American buyer to look at.

I do not think a lot of the breeders expected to receive the kind of bids for their horses (to mention just a few - the chestnut mare of mine is starting half steps and changes with all of her other lateral work there plus she is only 7, super comfortable and sound and a 10 mind. She never even began to reach her market value. The Rascalla mare is just started but simply amazing - less than half of her market value was bid. Very trainable and 3 exceptional gaits, plus excellent conformation and beautiful plus bloodlines to die for, and Rumors who would not want her?) that they are worth or that they should eventually sell for privately so there was no surprise when we no saled them.

With some exceptions we all tried to send some of our top sale horses from our breeding programs. I personally worked fairly hard to get some top horses entered in this sale. We have to start somewhere and we will not get the serious buyers if we are not sending serious horses. I for one would love to see an Elite type auction in this country and am willing to work hard to help make one happen. As they say put your money where your mouth is.

Lots of people told me NO NO NO this will never work we don't have this and that and there is not enough advertising and not enough blah blah blah. Well no one ever started a project by having everything in place before they started! We need to start somewhere and I think this was a very good start. Will it - should it be better? YEP Do we need changes? Sure!!! BUT no chance for one if we never start.

Tim was amazing to work with (exceptionally experienced, hard working, supportive and intelligent man) and he definitely is listening to all of the suggestions made. He also is willing to put his money (the serious kind) where his mouth is!! He wants an Elite Auction for Warmbloods too.

Things still in the works for the next one are a venue where we can economically bring the riding horses in at least two weeks out so that people can try them. Possibly with a German training director and with some professional riders. I have offered to the possibility of using my facility unfortunately there is not a huge show near here so we would have to be able to transport them all to an auction site after the trail period which does not really work.

Make suggestions for a venue !!!

Having a CD with all of the horses on it that lists pedigree information and has the short video clip of the horse walking, trotting and cantering down a long side and back. Just like the Verband's do.

The catalog the same as they have at the big Verband auctions. Picture and pedigree info plus and career highlights and family career highlights.

Having X-rays available online for potential clients to look at.

Fancy show hall where we can show case the horses more like they have in Germany. Also a Gala evening and stallion show where some of the countries top stallions can show off.

Possibly some demo riders come to perform their top freestlyes and some top GP jumpers demo over the big jumps.

All in all it was a very positive experience for me even though it cost me dollars I feel it was an endeavor well worth participating in. Plus the show is always fun. Plus a super fun group of people there!!

Only bad note was the Howard Johnson's hotel. A night with no air conditioning was NOT fun for the one guy on our group plus the fan in my bathroom sounding like a jet liner taking off on top of cleanliness issues! Plus talk about lack of friendly customer service!! Let's just say I will NEVER stay there again...

clint

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:53 PM

I think she did her auctions with Jeff Marsh of VA.

Jeff Marsh was the auctioneer, but I think any resemblence to his other auctions ended there. Judy put the catalog together, sent out flyers, had the horses prepared, all well ahead of time. People attended Glenwood auctions from all over the country. Since the Glenwood auctions I have seen ads for Jeff Marsh auctions in magazines, and received occasional notice of them. I have yet to see a catalog or website link to any of them, and the notice is usually received a day or two ahead of the auction. Any specific horses in the auction remain a mystery. I agree that having Judy Ehlers consult on future sporthorse auctions would benefit the auction success.

Indy-lou

Jul. 12, 2009, 11:54 PM

This is such interesting and informative stuff. Please keep it coming. I especially appreciate what Marydell has had to say, as well as others. I also appreciate that nobody is biting off anybody's head, but really trying to look at the issues and solutions. Good perspective from folks who were at the event, as well as looking on from the sidelines. We can learn from this, and should.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:08 AM

Does anyone remember Joan Irvine's sales at The Oaks (I do). I just pulled this old press release, circa 1997:

I remember the Oaks auctions. Their results were amazing. Instead of seeing what was sold and thnking oh, my GOSH what a horrible price for that lovely horse, it was the opposite at the Oaks sales. I was always thinking, my gosh, they paid huge bucks for mediocre with a questionable pedigree?

They always mass mailed a lovely catalog WAY in advance.

What time of year did the Glenwood and Oaks auctions take place? Anyone know the details?

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 07:02 AM

I remember the Oaks auctions. Their results were amazing. Instead of seeing what was sold and thnking oh, my GOSH what a horrible price for that lovely horse, it was the opposite at the Oaks sales. I was always thinking, my gosh, they paid huge bucks for mediocre with a questionable pedigree?

They always mass mailed a lovely catalog WAY in advance.

What time of year did the Glenwoon and Oaks auctions take place? Anyone know the details?

The Oaks was held during the summer, typically in August.

FriesianX

Jul. 13, 2009, 08:22 AM

Jeff Marsh was the auctioneer, but I think any resemblence to his other auctions ended there. Judy put the catalog together, sent out flyers, had the horses prepared, all well ahead of time. People attended Glenwood auctions from all over the country. Since the Glenwood auctions I have seen ads for Jeff Marsh auctions in magazines, and received occasional notice of them. I have yet to see a catalog or website link to any of them, and the notice is usually received a day or two ahead of the auction. Any specific horses in the auction remain a mystery. I agree that having Judy Ehlers consult on future sporthorse auctions would benefit the auction success.

I also attended some of the Glenwood auctions. They were an event to attend! But it was a different time, internet was just becoming mainstream, Warmbloods were still hard to find. Glenwood was THE Hanoverian breeder on the West coast. So, if you wanted a Warmblood, odds were pretty good you had at least talked to Judy.

The last year of their auctions was 2001 if I remember correctly - and it was very different, prices were down, many more "no sales". I do think this was due to a few things - a slightly down economy (remember what happened in 2001?), AND the fact that there were a lot more breeders and internet sales were starting to be the "thing" - you could find a Warmblood just about anywhere in the country by checking AgDirect or DreamHorse or typing a search into Yahoo. Marketing changed dramatically.

I'm not saying the auction concept is a bad one, just pointing out times have changed, and to really market an auction means reaching out on-line as well as through print media.

Another thing that we saw in prices at this auction - the young, under saddle horses commanded better prices than any of the babies. Judy and Volker always sold the youngsters in a different auction (usually late Summer), so the crowd was there solely to look at young prospects, versus horses already under saddle. I think they did that for a reason - in many cases it is a totally different crowd looking for babies versus horses going under saddle.

I'm on the West Coast - I got the catalog the day before the auction. NOT that I'm in the market for a horse, but if I was - that wasn't enough time. And cost-wise, wouldn't an email blast have been less expensive a month prior to the auction, with the ability to sign up for a print catalog if I was interested?

From a marketing standpoint - most on this specific forum are BREEDERS - I wonder if we got on the Jumper Forum or the Dressage Forum - how many people there were even aware of the auction? If you have an 'under saddle' horse, THERE is your market.

Also curious - remember, I'm on the West Coast, much more familiar with our CDIs and big shows - how big a show is DAL? Would a show like Devon be a better venue (more people)?

We did have a fairly big Jumper farm out here try to do a high end sport horse auction two years ago - at a Jumper show. They ran into many of the same pitfalls we saw here. Print ads are EXPENSIVE. Many people weren't aware of the auction until very last minute. Most people who DID know about it were breeders, not the riding public. Results were also similar - babies went dirt cheap. People wandering in from the show (wondering what was going on) signed up to bid when they saw nice Warmblood and WB Cross foals going for $2k (and less). A few high end riding horses commanded decent (not outstanding) prices. The rest of the horses went way too cheap. Some went back to their owners.

By the way, they did have food and wine. And every high bidder had a bottle of champagne delivered to their table as the bid closed. They had round tables (restaurant style) with white table cloths. The horses had at least a basic PPE done ahead of time. The vet was there to answer questions. They spent a LOT of money and sold a lot of youngsters for very low prices :no:

There has to be a way to make this work - but it may take a few years to iron out the concepts - and of course, the two edged sword - without enough horses consigned, it won't draw the big crowds, without the big crowds, you won't draw the horses.

Bellfleur

Jul. 13, 2009, 08:52 AM

Edgewood

Jul. 13, 2009, 09:07 AM

DaD would be a phenomenal venue!! However DaD is alway overcrowded as it is. Where could the auction be held?? They need some hours to set up and take down the rings and tables etc.

Anyone have any other super ideas for a venue???

We do need a big horse show to run it in conjunction with.

Although I have never been there, would the NEDA Dressage show and USDF BC Finals venue in Saugerties have more stabling than DAD? It is a pretty big show too.

PineTreeFarm

Jul. 13, 2009, 09:18 AM

Although I have never been there, would the NEDA Dressage show and USDF BC Finals venue in Saugerties have more stabling than DAD? It is a pretty big show too.

Saugerties is a modern facility. It's been in operation about 7 years now I think. Lots of stabling in tents and in permanent barns.

Over the years there have been complaints about Devon because of sub standard stabling. Space is at a premium.

Kinsella

Jul. 13, 2009, 09:21 AM

Hey, how about thinking outside the box, er, off the east coast... Look inland and look at schedules for ALL disciplines. How about Lexington KY, late August or early September? It could be done at the KHP, and in that time frame you have major H/J shows as well as a good sized Dressage show (especially if the Young Horse Championships are held there again). They have the stabling and arenas and the ability to have horses there for more than just a few days.... Just a thought...

Also, I was at that Oaks auction where the Montanas bought Chaka Khan. THAT was a spectacular event. ALL of the horses were available for trial before the sale, they all had PPE's with x-rays, and were all presented in-hand, with video footage running on huge screens behind the auctioneers. Even the "little people" that just came to spectate had access to snacks and beverages, though the people bidding had a seperate seating area and better snacks and drinks...

QHmom

Jul. 13, 2009, 09:27 AM

FlyingColors- Thnks for email which was not needed. I also saw your first post which you edited. You did not own the horse! The owners had thier reasons, offered you the mare first, and then put her through the sale. Please understand that the sale was a good thing for everyone.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 09:28 AM

Anyone know which horses were "no saled" at the auction on Saturday??? Or at least how many were "no saled"?

willie6

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:16 AM

talloaks, I had one young horse that was a no sale, and I personally know of 4 others that were in nearby stalls and some friends, that did not sell there horses. If the auctionerr said after struck down, that sold in back, it was a no sale and I did hear this many times.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:37 AM

leslie645

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:45 AM

How much did Rascalla go for? Are the prices posted somewhere already?

password

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:53 AM

I think people are missing some of the positives. A lot of these horses have been available for sale privately for a long time at prices less than what they brought at auction. That's what can be so exciting about an auction for a seller! It can go either way. And IMHO, these nicest horses were owned by owners that did not "have" to sell either way and are probably not as outraged as one would think from reading these boards. ;)

andy.smaga

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:56 AM

A good place to have an auction, from a European and a H/J perspective, could be Wellington, Florida, during WEF.

clint

Jul. 13, 2009, 10:58 AM

What time of year did the Glenwood and Oaks auctions take place? Anyone know the details?

Judy initially started with a riding horse auction in April. They were successful, so a few years later she added the broodmare and foal auction in October. One interesting thing about the foal auction is that the starting price was $4k. I still have a riding horse auction catalog from 1998, and the minimum for a riding horse was $5k. The riding horses had more than a basic PPE; they had x-rays, and a vet was always on site on sale day to discuss any questions a potential buyer might have. At the final auction, the vet was Dr. Snyder from UC Davis, and it doesn't get much better than that. A buyer was also free to bring in a vet of their choice.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:01 AM

What about having an auction at a convention? USEF evening entertainment? Or a "benefit to a good cause" celebrity freestyle & auction. Having special seating for $$$/plate with a catered dinner - dinner proceeds to a worthy cause?

I have a fair amount of experience organizing fundraisers and galas and I do not think it is a good idea to hold a horse auction in conjunction with a fundraiser as the sellers would end up competing for dollars with the charity, and that is not good for anyone. Also, these fundraisers are a lot of work and cost a lot of money (which is put up by benefactors).

trooper345

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:03 AM

How much did Rascalla go for? Are the prices posted somewhere already?

She was a no sale, still available at Canaan Ranch! (saving my pennies!!!) :D

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:09 AM

password

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:12 AM

Good, and I hope they know that a lot of us appreciate their efforts. With a few tweeks to the system, next year, they may very well get their prices.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

A good place to have an auction, from a European and a H/J perspective, could be Wellington, Florida, during WEF.

They did try that a couple of years ago and it was a fiasco, though it was not well publicized in advance. One problem with holding the auction there is that people frequently buy horses to take to Florida (i.e., for the start of the new show season), and are not particularly wanting to buy another right away. Those that are in the market already typically have plenty to choose from at the WEF shows, so in some ways, an auction held there does not really provide an additional sales opportunity.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:14 AM

I know at least some of the higher priced horses were no saled. No one was outraged. That was not the point of the exercise.

If horses are "no saled" it may be more difficult to get buyers to the next sale!! Never know.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:38 AM

If horses are "no saled" it may be more difficult to get buyers to the next sale!! Never know.

If bids had been received that were commensurate with the value of the horses, those, too, would have been sold. The owners are experienced horse people and know what they have. The horses were for sale and simply did not attract enough bids on that day to have a deal. It would not serve the industry well to perpetuate the notion that horses can be stolen at these events, or that the events are a fire sale. I am sure if I offered to give away everything in my barn plenty of people would come, so what?

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:44 AM

If bids had been received that were commensurate with the value of the horses, those, too, would have been sold. The owners are experienced horse people and know what they have. The horses were for sale and simply did not attract enough bids on that day to have a deal. It would not serve the industry well to perpetuate the notion that horses can be stolen at these events, or that the events are a fire sale. I am sure if I offered to give away everything in my barn plenty of people would come, so what?

No reason to be snarky YL! Just thinking of ways to make an auction in America successful, and of actions that may make one less than successful. Apparently there were not enough bidders at this sale. Now the question is why were the buyers not there???? Would anyone want to go all the way to an auction, be prepared to buy, only to have their selections "no saled"??? If the auction has the rep of lots of no sales, then why would anyone take the time to go??

Tamara in TN

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:51 AM

Would anyone want to go all the way to an auction, be prepared to buy, only to have their selections "no saled"??? If the auction has the rep of lots of no sales, then why would anyone take the time to go??

sure lots of people do it....they consider the fees paid for being "no saled" as advertising fees to be seen by a HUGE group of people....the auction houses know some horses will be no saled and get their ad money back out of them....

in the end those fees are all written off as "advertising" in any event....it's like a friend of mine used to say about breed shows..."it does not matter how we place, it matters how many people see us in the ring"

as eventually and inevitably someone TOTALLY disagrees with the judge and likes your horse on that day....maybe enough to buy it....

andy.smaga

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:53 AM

Those that are in the market already typically have plenty to choose from at the WEF shows, so in some ways, an auction held there does not really provide an additional sales opportunity.
I agree, but a big number of quality horses are for sale at WEF and it could be a good way to change the way US buyers sees auctions, if only quality horses are offered at that auction.

The big advantage is that horses and buyers are already on premises, so no extra $$$ for travel/lodging.

But I don't really have a knowledge of the US market, it's just food for thought.

YankeeLawyer

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:57 AM

No reason to be snarky YL! Just thinking of ways to make an auction in America successful, and of actions that may make one less than successful. Apparently there were not enough bidders at this sale. Now the question is why were the buyers not there???? Would anyone want to go all the way to an auction, be prepared to buy, only to have their selections "no saled"??? If the auction has the rep of lots of no sales, then why would anyone take the time to go??

My post was not in any way meant to be snarky and I apologize if it was interpreted that way.

I do not think *sellers* particularly want to go to all the trouble of prepping their horses and paying all the costs associated with the auction and transport simply to bring their horses home at the end, either. You just cannot expect to walk away with a mare that likely will win Devon this year for 30K. It is very, very unlikely to happen. Yes, more has to be done to attract buyers. But buyers need to be realistic, also. If it were a car sale and someone no saled a Ferrari at 10K, would people then say they would never attend a sale like that because it is (what, so unfair?). In addition, I know what the reserves were on some of these horses and they were very fair (below market).

Tiki

Jul. 13, 2009, 11:58 AM

I'm still not sure yet that auctions will work here, but Talloaks, why on earth would someone sell a fantastic horse that is winning well in the Young Horse Divisions with real potential for FEI work for a just started under saddle price?

I can't even imagine NOT no-saleing a horse, with so few bidders there, that didn't even come close to half of what a reasonable offer would be to just basically dump the horse. With horses of the quality that some of them were, why on earth should the owners just give them away?

I still say that the only people who go to these auctions, for the most part, are people looking for serious bargains, and/or people who have never ridden at those levels, or have never priced top quality horses and really don't have any idea what the horses are really worth.

No one was outraged, but a lot of the better horses were no-saled as the few bids there were didn't come near their market price. And don't tell me that these kind of auctions set the market price - that will not happen until - if ever - these auctions become competitive with knowledgeable buyers bidding fair prices.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:01 PM

My post was not in any way meant to be snarky and I apologize if it was interpreted that way.

I do not think *sellers* particularly want to go to all the trouble of prepping their horses and paying all the costs associated with the auction and transport simply to bring their horses home at the end, either. You just cannot expect to walk away with a mare that likely will win Devon this year for 30K. It is very, very unlikely to happen. Yes, more has to be done to attract buyers. But buyers need to be realistic, also. If it were a car sale and someone no saled a Ferrari at 10K, would people then say they would never attend a sale like that because it is (what, so unfair?). In addition, I know what the reserves were on some of these horses and they were very fair (below market).

Okay, fair enough, but how do you get buyers to an auction who are willing and able to pay the price the sellers are hoping for??

Oakstable

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:03 PM

Willie6,
Since you were there, and didn't sell your horse, what insight can you share?

Or did you? If so, I'll go back and find it in this thread.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:42 PM

Another thought, why doesn't the auction house publish in the catalog the reserves that are placed on the horses????

KatherineC

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:52 PM

Did anyone attending the sale see a 3yo, bay Hano gelding named DelFino go through the ring?

Tamara in TN

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:53 PM

Another thought, why doesn't the auction house publish in the catalog the reserves that are placed on the horses????

I know of no auctions that do this...not even Barrett-Jacksons right down to Ebay...they only say "reserve not met"

Oakstable

Jul. 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

Publishing the reserve would be counter-productive, it would msg that x price would be satisfactory.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 01:26 PM

Did anyone attending the sale see a 3yo, bay Hano gelding named DelFino go through the ring?

Del Fino's knock down price was $9200 but whether it was a legimate sale or not I wouldn't know.

talloaks

Jul. 13, 2009, 01:29 PM

Publishing the reserve would be counter-productive, it would msg that x price would be satisfactory.

Just thinking ( and maybe that is dangerous!!) but can't the auctioneer say the bidding has to get up further to meet the reserve instead of just saying sold?? I didn't hear this auctioneer trying to work up the numbers in anyway other than the usual.

Fairview Horse Center

Jul. 13, 2009, 01:49 PM

Anyone taking the time to go to an auction that expects, and is willing to pay a fair price for a horse will not be upset at a nosale. It is fairly routine to continue to negotiate the price outside the arena, after the horse is passed from the ring. The auction company's contract covers this as it quite common. Why would a buyer not contunue with the purchase it they have found something they would really like? They may be able to negotiate a fair price "pending" them trying the horse, and having it vetted.

I think having the higher opening bid known ($4000 - $5000,) like Glenwood did sets the stage up front to let people know that it is not an auction that people are dumpng their cr*p, and buyers are going to have to open up their wallets to go home with a horse.

I do prefer to see a horse nosaled as it leaves the sales arena, rather than back at the office.

carovet

Jul. 13, 2009, 01:49 PM

For non east coasters -- DAL usually runs 7 rings over 3 days -- one of the bigger shows in our region as far as numbers of horses and riders attending (and they have good stabling, good prizes, etc) it is one of my fav shows to go to in the region

as a non-attending, non-shopper I thought holding the sale at DAL was brilliant :)

reasons I would attend the sale but be hesitant to buy a riding horse (vs. euro auctions) -- the opportunity to review vet ppe results ahead without having to pay for that ppe myself, and not being able to try out the horse before the sale

i do appreciate the cost of having a ppe and rads is quite high for someone who is selling a low priced horse. perhaps requiring a ppe and/or rads ahead could be tied to the starting bid price? (above/below 10k group)

i would consider buying a foal or yearling under the current conditions though (at the same time, not interested in buying babies :winkgrin: )

certainly if i was an active shopper (and not already going to dal to show) i would not have made the trip without video, rads and ppe available - and even then i wouldn't buy without at least a 5 min riding trial

btw, i believe there was the right to do a post auction ppe the day after the sale and cancel the purchase if anything showed up.....but i would worry about what my definition of a problem was and what the auction house's assessment was (and you only had 24 hours to get it done i think) -- i wouldn't want to be that vet! :)

i think it is a super concept and really appreciate the sellers who supported the sale.

paintjumper

Jul. 13, 2009, 01:58 PM

I have never heard that before. I have been to sales where the auction bid was questionable as to "sold" and the auctioneer did say prior to the horse leaving that there was a no sale. I'd be kinda miffed if I was excited about my new horse and got to the office and find out there that it wasn't my horse afterall.

Tamara in TN

Jul. 13, 2009, 02:04 PM

Just thinking ( and maybe that is dangerous!!) but can't the auctioneer say the bidding has to get up further to meet the reserve instead of just saying sold?? I didn't hear this auctioneer trying to work up the numbers in anyway other than the usual.

that is disheartening to the buyers.....while people expect reserves to be met no one wants to hear "well just $30,000 more an it can be yours"...it casts a shadow on the rest of the sale...your money isn't "good enough" to spend there....

now sometimes, if the owner is standing right there the House (and I use the generic and not PAS themselves) auctioneer can say "Tony, are we close here? can we work something out??" meaning of course are they will to come down to the bidded up price...but if you are so far from the reserve it's just stupid to try that....

to constantly hear the words "no sale" tells buyers that they are in the wrong sale and should not bother even trying

"sold in the back" can also mean that the House themselves have bought the iteml...not so much in Horses but for sure in Cars and Cattle...

Halfhalting

Jul. 13, 2009, 02:26 PM

I got really excited watching this sale, and actually starting prepping for the next sale so that I could go and BUY!! But now I am legitimately scared to do so. Personally, I think if a seller put their horse in a sale and a price was reached, with no reserve, they should not be able to no sale it! If they worried that they won't be happy with the sale price, either (a) put a reserve on it or (b) don't go to an auction. Because folks want good deals! I would be seriously upset if I had spent the money to go to the auction, with a trailer, bid on a horse and win (thus maybe not bid on other horses in the sale), and then have it pulled afterward.

I don't know if this is what happened - but if so, I see the buyers side of it - where's the benefit of taking the risk of buying at auction if the sale won't necessarily be honored? And for the record - I have been both a breeder and seller - heck, I almost sent a 2yo through an auction of Jeff's but was scared about the $$$ I would get - so I didn't!. It seemed to me that most of the nicer going horses got good prices. Yeah the babies were cheap, but that's both a huge investment and a huge risk for the buyer.

Somebody please tell me that a seller can't just decide to no sale it even without a reserve... Hopefully I am just misunderstanding the lingo...