Feeding "Foal lac" to orphan foal - starved/strangles - POST #40

[Blugal]

Full story of WHY is posted here (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4193976#post4193976).

The mare and foal were starved, had no vaccinations and no minerals. Vet found selenium deficiency and prescribed some which is now finished. Now that the mare is getting fed properly, she hasn't really gained weight but her attitude and appetite have improved, her milk production is up and the foal has gained weight.

The mare's strangles have burst and the draining is going well - she will probably be fine.

We are worried about the foal. She's 2 months old and is eating a bit of grass and hay with her mum, although she won't eat the foal ration the vet suggested. Her strangles have come up basically since last night with half her face swollen and one eye shut. Not sure if she'll be getting enough food if it hurts to swallow or if it's hard to nurse and breathe. The vet suggested giving her high-glucose electrolyte solution from a syringe IF she stops nursing, but that seems like a last-ditch measure.

She got antibiotics and NSAID today and hot-packs to the face which will continue several times a day.

Any other suggestions would be very welcome.

[kookicat]

Just a thought- try posting this in the breeding forum.

[Blugal]

Full story of WHY is posted here (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=211663).

The mare and foal were starved, had no vaccinations and no minerals. Vet found selenium deficiency and prescribed some which is now finished. Now that the mare is getting fed properly, she hasn't really gained weight but her attitude and appetite have improved, her milk production is up and the foal has gained weight.

The mare's strangles have burst and the draining is going well - she will probably be fine.

We are worried about the foal. She's 2 months old and is eating a bit of grass and hay with her mum, although she won't eat the foal ration the vet suggested. Her strangles have come up basically since last night with half her face swollen and one eye shut. Not sure if she'll be getting enough food if it hurts to swallow or if it's hard to nurse and breathe. The vet suggested giving her high-glucose electrolyte solution from a syringe IF she stops nursing, but that seems like a last-ditch measure.

She got antibiotics and NSAID today and hot-packs to the face which will continue several times a day.

Any other suggestions would be very welcome.

[Petstorejunkie]

Awwe that just breaks my heart :( bless you for giving your all. The best I. Can do is jingle for you

[Quinn]

The first thing I thought of was Buckeye Foal Aide or Progressive Rejuvenade. I have had tremendous success with the former and I believe the latter is pretty much identical. Great stuff.

**Just noticed you are in Canada. Please let me know where you are and I'll locate some for you.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Jumper Breeder]

I had one with strangles a few year's ago. Can you get ichammol (black drawing salve) where you are at? I slathered it on both sides behind the jaw as well as underneath. It is messy, but worth it. We did up lancing, but the ichammol helped draw everything towards the surface and I believe helped speed recovery. Also, keep food and water up where it is easily reachable, my mare that had it had such a hard time grazing she would lie down at the end of the lead rope and eat laying on the ground. I would get the foal started on the electrolyte solution and some immune boosters asap. Best of luck - I hope they recover swiftly!

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

She sounds like she might need some TPN (nutrition by IV). I would give her something like Foal-Aid which is a vitamin-mineral paste made by Buckeye. I'm sure you've got something like that up there. I know she needs it being so malnurished to begin with.
I'd be really afraid to give her a drench of anything due to possibility of aspiration & resulting pneumonia. I do know that with strangles they say not to give antibiotics but not so sure with youngsters. Probably needs real intensive care. I'll jingle & pray for her & her mom (& you too)! Maybe somebody else who's been through this with youngster will chime in & offer better advise.

[Blugal]

Thanks for the suggestions. We are located in 100 Mile House, B.C. Canada, and the mare/foal are near Quesnel, B.C.

[Quinn]

I am sending you a pm.

Oops, your pm box is full.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Lesley Feakins]

With something like what you have described above I would say definitely...Immunall

http://www.rainbowequus.com/Immunall.htm

I have used this in the past with foals and one foal in particular who had a horrible abcess on her neck and I belive it really helped her heal.

[Home Again Farm]

I'll second the Rejuvenaide or Foal Aide and Immunall. Jingling for mom and baby, blugal!!

[Blugal]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Sorry Quin about the full inbox, I've cleared it out now. The feedstore here was closed today, but I will be seeing how to get this stuff tomorrow.

Update on the filly is that she is much perkier, the swelling has gone down a bit, and one of the abscesses looks ready to burst.

[Jesse'sMom]

progressive rejuvenaide plus for the nutrients
and Immunall to help with the strangles.

[Blugal]

Update: Mare and foal are doing much better. Both perkier, more energy, and the foal's biggest abscess on her face has burst and is draining.

I sent an order for Immunall and am awaiting its arrival.

[Sunnydays]

Hey blugal - great news. You are doing a super job, and getting lots of good advice. Hope all continues to improve. You will be richly rewarded with the love of this mare and her foal I'm sure. Horses "know" what is in people's hearts, and they will know that you are their champion.:)

[kealea31]

Glad to hear she is improving. Platinum Performance products may also help. Your vet could also give her plasma IV.

[Blugal]

The foal is looking better all the time. She is very spunky and quite independent, which should help with weaning her early. Despite that she has been extremely well-behaved for shots, hot packs, and cleaning the abscesses.

The mare is being picky about her feed, and I realized last night that she likely has ulcers from being starved. Unfortunately it's Canada Day today (stores are closed) so I'm off to Wally world to pick up some Pepto bismol... I still can't believe how skinny this mare is. She looks very pitiful and when she's off her feed that really worries me, as this has always been a horse for whom food is a #1 priority.

[Blugal]

UPDATE: Mare and foal are doing quite well. The mare is eating well now, so I guess the Pepto is doing its job. The foal still has a couple abscesses to drain, but she seems pretty spunky and is enjoying the hot packs.

I think we're going to call the filly Chantilly (Tilly as barn name). I have found out most of her breeding info as luckily we had a photocopy of the mare's breeding certificate, and the rescuer knew the name of the stallion. Pedigree here (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=CHANTILLY37&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=).

[Blugal]

We had to put our mare down this afternoon. She was colicking - likely complications of strangles, starvation, and a weak immune system.

She'd had 3 milder colics in the past 6 weeks, and recovered with either no intervention or just banamine before. Today was way worse. The vet said she was a very stoic horse - her pulse was 90 BPM and breathing 48 BPM - other horses usually thrash around, but she was just standing there with her head down.

We tried giving her some fluids but she went downhill so fast that we decided in conjunction with the vet that it was best to let her go.

We are absolutely heartbroken. :cry:

The foal seems to be doing OK. We moved her to a different paddock beside my horse who is on "small paddock rest". Unfortunately all we have are full-grown geldings who we're scared would hurt her if we put them together. Nobody wants to lend us a babysitter/nurse-mare because of the strangles issue (and I don't blame them).

Any advice on raising an orphan foal of 3 months would be great. She is already a very good eater - grass, hay, and grain, but she still drank a lot of milk, so I'm worried about the abrupt change from that.

[lovemyoldguy]

Blugal, no words of wisdom to offer here, just wanted to say how sorry I am for the loss of your mare. I know how hard you tried to get her back on the road to good health. Jingles for her baby.

[EiRide]

The foal seems to be doing OK. We moved her to a different paddock beside my horse who is on "small paddock rest". Unfortunately all we have are full-grown geldings who we're scared would hurt her if we put them together. Nobody wants to lend us a babysitter/nurse-mare because of the strangles issue (and I don't blame them).

If you were close enough to PA I would gladly lend you Dolly, the 25 yr old sway backed Appy who came to me rather than a dog food can in 2003. She does nothing but eat and stand around, LOL, but she's very gentle and I've had her babysit two foals for me. I'd want you to transport her and pay for a strangles vaccination, of course. I am quite sure that in the many, many years she was in a large show barn she was exposed to it and is unlikely to contract strangles. Heck, she survived the neurological rhino outbreak at a large barn in PA that had 25 of 50 horses ill, and left 9 dead (including my lovely little mare, on lease to a little girl who rode at that barn). She's been exposed at one time or another to most things and just slogs along.

[Hampton Bay]

That's awful! Poor filly!

Can you maybe find a mare who has had strangles, or who has been vaccinated regularly? My mare had it maybe 6 years ago, and I have been vaccinating her the past couple years. I'm sure there are others. (I am in FL, so not anywhere close to you).

[Blugal]

Thanks for the offer, EiRide. We're in BC, Western Canada, so that's too far to transport. I appreciate it though.

We are looking for a companion/nurse-mare still, because I think it's important for her development & herd behaviour. It's only been a couple hours since we put our mare down, so we will be looking further afield (and may find one that's been exposed to strangles). There were a few local candidates, but as strangles hasn't come through this area in a very long time, none has vaccinated or been exposed.

[Sunnydays]

Blugal, I'm so sorry. Colic is such a hard thing to handle (and to watch). You gave your mare the best over her last few months, but sometimes we are helpless to fix their pain. My heart is with you.

[inquisitive]

So sorry and best wishes

[Quinn]

I'm so terribly sorry and just wanted you to know I'll include the wee one in my prayers. Best of luck finding a nurse mare/companion.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[elsbet]

Oh, Blugal! This is so sad....I sure hope your filly pulls through! And I hope that you are able to find a nurse mare or at least a babysitter for her. I'll keep jingling for you.

[Halfhalting]

so sorry about the loss of your mare, she was so brave and likely fought hard to get her filly to 3 months of age.

[misita]

What a horrible and terribly sad story. So sorry for your loss and the poor mare suffering like that. It just breaks my heart.

The good news is the baby is 3 months old and sounds like she'll be fine eventually. I'd probably add some foal lac pellets to her diet and I'm sure other cothers will have good ideas on diet.

Good luck with her.

[Home Again Farm]

I am so very sorry about your mare.

At three months, the filly needs good nutrition and a companion. I would get her onto milk pellets asap. She can't really digest cereal grains until she is four months old, so the milk is very important. I'd try to find another orphan the same age, an old pony or a very gentle old mare as a companion. Best of luck. You are ahead of the game because mama mare got this baby through the crucial few months.

[Equilibrium]

Blugal,

So sorry to read this as I've been following this since you had it in Off Course. Many hugs to you and your mom. Best wishes and jingles for the little one.

Terri

[MrWinston]

Sending jingles for the foal. This is a story that nightmares are made of. Sincere condolences.

[Blugal]

Thanks for all the wishes.

The foal looks pretty good this morning, all things considered. She was definitely hungry though. I spoke with a nutritionist at the feed company who makes the mare/foal feed. We are feeding her milk replacer plus her regular foal grain in many small feeds. Also getting some soaked hay cubes and beet pulp for water content. She's been good about eating hay and will probably eat some of the grass in her paddock once she's more comfortable with her situation. She's made friends with my gelding and wants to stay pretty close to him at the moment.

I still can't believe this happened. We knew our mare wasn't back to her normal self, but just the day before she looked the best she had since we got her back, whinnying for her food and trotting up to us (more energy than usual). It is so weird to go outside and instead of saying "good morning girls", walking to a different paddock to a forlorn little foal.

[Dalemma]

Where about in B.C. I live on Vancouver Island.....do we live close?

Dalemma

[Blugal]

Thanks Dalemma,
We are in the Interior (100 Mile House). We are going to try a very generous neighbour's horse tomorrow - a gentle 23 y.o. arthritic mare. At least if she doesn't work we can take her back easily.

We have tried her on the milk replacer 3 times today - she drank a little when we force-fed it with a syringe. Tried corn syrup on the nipple but she didn't like that either! She really needs the protein so I'd like to get her drinking this stuff ASAP. We'll try again after dinner and see how it goes. In the meantime she's eating her hay, cubes, grain, and a little beet pulp, and her manure looks OK.

She won't go out in her paddock to eat grass because she doesn't want to leave her new friend yet.

[Hampton Bay]

Is it a powdered milk replacer? Could you mix a bit in with her soaked cubes and beet pulp?

[Home Again Farm]

Be very, very careful trying to force feed the liquid milk replacer. She can very easily aspirate and end up with pneumonia.

At her age, I would remove all feed, give her a few hours to work up an appetite and then offer freshly mixed warm milk replacer in a bucket. Entice her to like the milk off your fingers and then keep luring her with your fingers to dip her nose into the milk. Once she gets a real taste for that, she should drain a bucket several times a day, while also getting hay, etc. The trick is that they need to be hungry before the older foals will take the milk replacer.

Alternatively, if you can get milk pellets start mixing them in with her grain. As she gets a taste for them add more milk pellets and reduce the grain. Once she is 4 months old start adding more grain and weaning off the milk pellets.

[Blugal]

Great news - my Mum brought the neighbour's mare over this morning (neighbour had a reason for waiting till today). We gave her a little Ace so she wouldn't act too stupid being in a new place with new horses.

We put a strand of electric in an area in front of the run-in shed so the foal can go under but the mare can't. Figure she can escape if she needs to, and we can feed her in there. It's beside her gelding friend so if the mare goes out of sight she'll still have a buddy.

Apparently the foal (Viva) ran around when the mare arrived, then Mum haltered her and had them together but both being led. They were good so she let Viva go and led the mare around. After a bit of squealing with my gelding, things seemed good so mare and foal are now on supervised turn-out together and are standing side by side eating hay. The only things we're worried about:

1) the mare's reaction if Viva tries nursing, as she's never had a foal. However she's old, arthritic, and has never threatened any of her previous pasture mates in any way. Also barefoot.

2) Whether the mare will notice where the foal is sleeping and be careful of her. I hope this isn't a problem as usually horses don't walk all over each other when they're sleeping, but it's still a concern.

Thanks for the advice on milk replacer & feeding in general. I put the lamb nipple (hole enlarged a bit) on the end of the syringe and just pushed a little bit at a time to try to get her sucking. She is swallowing most of it and spitting a bit out, but it is a very time-consuming process for the exact reason that I don't want to actually force it down her.

She ate up a bit of the powder mixed in with her soaked grain and soaked cubes, but not nearly enough (the label says she should be drinking 18L reconstituted a day, but we only got about 1L worth of stuff into her).

I'm waiting for the milk pellets to arrive (had to order them and put them on the bus) and hope that we get them tomorrow...

I appreciate all the well-wishes and suggestions.

[Foxtrot's]

Do you know Ken Wilkinson, Animal Nutritionist, at the Otter Co-Op in Aldergrove: He is the kindest man and will go over and beyond to help you if you phone him: 604-607-6900

[Blugal]

Thanks again for the outpouring of support and help. The companion mare has been good - they don't spend a ton of time together, but she is there when Viva wants to hang out or to venture around her paddock and eat some grass.

Next question:
The foal is now eating the equivalent of approx 6 litres of milk replacer. The label says for her age she should be having 16-18 litres. She won't accept the nipple or drink out of the bucket. So right now I'm serving it concentrated with a spoonful of soaked beet pulp and a little bit of foal grain (an 18% protein 8% fibre mare/foal starter extruded crunch). It's about stew consistency - anything runnier and she won't eat or drink it.

The Foal lac pellets didn't arrive until today - I'm picking them up right now. How gradually do I need to mix them in? I'm hoping this will solve the milk/protein problem and would like to get her up to speed as soon as is safely possible.

[Charmb]

Wow...what a dramatic and wonderful story, although sad too. We had to wean a 3 month old appy filly a number of years ago, due to being badly cut in wire, etc. She did very well without milk replacer. When she was about 6 or 7 months old, we had to add oats to her feed program, as she had great bone, but slow tendon growth...calcium/phospherous ratios weren't right. She didn't get as tall as most of her full siblings, but, she is a hale 24 now, and has had no health issues her entire life! Shown and ridden throughout the years by girlfriend's daughter who bought her as a 4 year old. I think our trakehners would weather it well too, but would definetely add the immunall or foal-aid or rejuvenade, great products that we didn't have back then. Our dutch horses would probably just roll through it...there is gelder in them...chuckle!! The strangles...how is that doing now? Better out than in with that. I was going to suggest that we have an aged Arab broodmare who is going to be our auntie horse here, and I could've lent her to you. Glad your neighbour mare is going to be her buddy.
Keep us posted
Charmaine

[Blugal]

Thanks Charmaine. Nice to hear a good story.

I've got her back on Immunall (both mare and foal were on it for a couple weeks until the strangles was over) and a friend is helping me procure some Foal Aide.

She didn't like the Foal Milk pellets at first, but I think I might have caught her at a non-hungry moment since she ate up her next meal just fine. I only put a handful of the new pellets in and will gradually increase that.

Amazing how expensive this stuff is!!

I came in from a bike ride this afternoon and the foal was doing her racing/bucking/rodeo show and it was nice to see she was going together with the mare - who managed to trot and even canter a bit.