speaking of Traks

[paintjumper]

I was reading the pinto trak thread here a few moments ago, I have become very familiar with the Hano, Hols, and Dutch bloodlines but not very familiar with the Trak bloodlines. Which of the Trak lines are super strong for dressage and which are strong for jumpers?

[Holly Jeanne]

I'm by no means an expert but I'm sure those folks will weigh in soon. :)

I just wanted to mention Kostolony for Dressage. Kostolony is the sire of Gribaldi and Silvermoon (sire of Blu Hors Matine). I'm a little biased toward these guys as Kostolony's dam sire is my mares sire (Falke). :lol:

Abdullah leaps to mind for jumping (ok bad pun) and I know of several up and coming jumper stallions in the ATA right now. I'll let someone more knowledgeable to provide more details.

You didn't ask about eventing but, obviously Windfall is pretty well known there and I'm rather fond of Fleetwood Opposition.

Oh, and hunters: I'll start - Zarr (not approved) and his sire, Hennessey.

[stolensilver]

A superb dual purpose stallion is Axis. He was champion of the loose jumping at his grading, son of a GP jumper in Sixtus and is competing and doing outstandingly well in dressage. As a 10yo he is out and winning with 70%+ scores at Intermediare 1 in Germany. He is also black and beautiful.

Another very nice Trak stallion is Le Rouge. He is still young but has proven his dressage ability beyond doubt at the tender age of 7 with top 10 finishes in the Bundeschampionat and being champion Trakehner riding horse in Germany for 3 years in succession. I have a daughter from his first crop. She's just been backed and has the most amazing trainable temperament I have ever come across. She is out of a King Arthur mare, King Arthur is doing well at GP and is yet another very nice dressage Trak stallion.

And I've just had my PSG mare scanned in foal to Silvermoon. Woo hoo! So excited about this one. I'm not going out specifically looking for Traks, I am happy to have a horse of any bloodlines as long as they are a good horse. That I've ended up with a purebred Trak 3yo and hopefully will have a half Trak foal next year says a lot about the talent in the Trakehners. :)

[paintjumper]

I'm sure there are others but these 2 look pretty impressive for the breed. www.trakehners-international.com and Bluewood Trakehners in the UK.

[Bhaltair Farm]

For jumping talent in the US you can't go wrong with Tzigane *Pb* at:

www.twin-gates.com

He is the sire of the first USA born and bred Trakehner colt to be exported to Germany as a stallion prospect, Sam the Man!

[Kumi]

I like the Graditz *E* for jumpers - the sire of Tzigane *Pb* and many very successful performance horses. I also like Habicht.

For dressage, I like Mahagoni.


The TKs also look very strongly at the dam lines when discussing success in performance.

[acottongim]

Do you want "lines" or "stalions"? And here is the other part of the equation - Trakehners are bred to be "all arounders" not necessarily specializing in one discipline. Of course there are some that are BETTER at one or the other, but really they should be able to do it all - think eventing. That being said, I'll go with my own personal list (and it is by NO MEANS complete LOL).

For dressage - the "lines" that immed leap to mind are Hailo *Pg* (who not only has earned his Performance Gold in dressage but has offspring that has done the same) - which goes back through the Anduc/Marduc lines

Also Arogno and his full sibling Avignon II.

Hockey of course (also seen as Khockey). I want to say the only approved son of his in the US (and NA maybe) is Oskar II *Pg*

Gribaldi

Kostolnoy (but not always a "type" producer if looks matter to you)

Condus

Hohenstein

Michaelangelo

Caprimond

There are more I'm quite sure....

For over fences: Hailo *Pg* again has produced prob as many hunters as he has dressage horses.

Donauwind and all of his resulting sons (including Abdullah)

Axis

Sixtus

Hennessey

Consul

Onassis *E*

Zauberklang

Schwalbenzug

ETA: I meant to include Graditz and Habicht and also Enrico Caruso (again I think they have just as much of dressage as jumpers - they are "performance" bred instead of "discipline" bred if that makes sense).

[Maren]

Congratulatoins Stolensilver - that's outstanding news!!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for an uneventful pregnancy!!

With regards to Trakehner stallions and disciplines. I can't quite agree that they're all good for everything and so versatile that it doesn't matter what you ask them to do. There are clearly lines that do one thing better than the other. And since "purpose-bred" is the slogan of the year I'll say that there lines I wouldn't even dream of touching if I was breeding e.g. Show Jumpers and wanted to have something that can compete internationally. Just because a stallion has a few offspring doing both, I'd never go as far as to freely interchange those lines with others. Nothing is easier than to genetically screw up something like a careful selected jumper pedigree that has taken a few generations to establish.

That said, here is a very very gross generalization of a few lines and what they "do":

The king of versatility must be Habicht, or better his sire Burnus, an Angloarabian Halfbred (dam was Kisber Felver). His offspring (several generations) have competed internationally (including various Olympics) in dressage, eventing and show jumping. And the line is extremely popular and strong today because it maintains this obvious athleticism and versatility over generations. Sixtus is the epitome of that philosophy is you ask me. His sons Buddenbrock, Kasparow and Axis are clearly in a league of their own. And that is true not only looking through Trakehner glasses - these horses are super modern, super athletic, and mix well with other breeds. Btw, Burnus' full sister Amels founded a Trakehner mare family and that is represented by just th same versatility. Nice examples of the recent past: Olympian Larissa (eventing) and of course the lovely Le Rouge.

Consul and his sons, mostly Rockefeller, plus his absolutely stunning Hanoverian daughters (e.g. the dams of Don Vino, Don Freederico and Heike Kemmer's Bonaparte) are another family of horses that fit the "versatile" mantle. Those few of us that still have Consul-daughters in breeding age in the barn really sit on a pot of gold. I don't ;-)

The third highly versatile line is the aforementioned family of Hockey, that really starts with his amazing sire Pomerantes ox, a Russian Arab. Olympic dressage horses and show jumpers come from that line, and not just a few. I once read a statistic that pointed out that Hockey producer over 40 international competition horses. And while we're in the East, if show jumping is your goal, then anything with the bloodlines of the legendary Polist Poprad or his son Aspirant, Lithuanian born and US based Horalas, Waitaki, Abrek, Long Deal ..... will give you what you seek.

As for dressage, the big three would be Flaneur, Halali and Pasteur xx. The first mostly (but not exclusively) through Arogno, the second in very convincing fashion via Marduc and especially Hyllos, and the latter via Mahagoni and Michelagenlo. However, Flaneur has done a lot more for the breed than just Arogno (Don, Gajus, Memphis, Istanbul etc), and Marduc's three best sons are w/o doubt Lehndorffs, Herzzauber and Anduc. The latter has a great representative in the US in Hailo at Valhalla Farm and produces very sane, amateur-friendly performance horses that do well in dressage and the Hunters. However, I would not classify him in any way as a show jumper sire. Not if you have horses like Abdullah and his sons, Horalas or younger Tzigane and Titulus in the same country!! Hailo is not in that league as a jumper or sire of jumpers.
The other Anduc son in the US is the tremendously successful Schiffon in VA and he comes with what is lacking so badly: high quality TB in the dam line!!

Mahagoni in the US is almost exclusively Enrico Caruso and his many sons. And Kumi, way too low-key here - her lovely Kovington is probably the most successful younger ATA stallion in dressage right now. Fingers crossed for that second score my friend!!

Eventing: anything Habicht. Anything Sir Shostakovich xx, Bajar ShA (or best, a mix of them), and I would also say that Enrico C has his place here, at least at the lower levels.

Show Jumping: No, Donauwind was actually NOT a very dominant show jumper producer. In fact, most of his sons were in the dressage field. The pedigree part you want here is Pregel - big time. But what you should seek if jumpers are your program, Kassius/Suchard comes to mind right away. Suchard and his son Balisto Z were the only Trakehners ever approved by Zangersheide. Says it all. Besides, Suchard's maternal brother Sir Graditz (by the impeccable half blood Inter Graditz) is an internationally successful show jumper in the UK with earnings in excess of something like 150K Pounds. That's Holsteiner proportions for the small world of Trakehners - since we all know they "can't jump" anyway, I'm pretty impressed. And you can absolutely not walk past the Russians for the jumping aspect. Rondo was another with good jumper prepotency. Himself at S level, he produced Graditz (and with him the currently only active Grand Prix show jumper in the ATA books, Tzigane) as well as Arthus (Denmark) and Friedensfürst, whose offspring excel in jumping despite the fact that he himself was an international Grand prix dressage horse. His son Lücke is in the Hanoverian Verband Show Jumper program (as are Windfall and Special Memories, btw).

Personally, if I was starting a show jumper program, my first trip would take me to Poland and East Germany. Go find these rare Lamarc, Ralf, Nerv, Egoist, Aspirant daughters and grand daughters. They are so not en vogue right now, it's a shame. But the basis of that athleticism is undeniable. While the West was focused on breeding even more beauty into the horses and neglecting performance pretty much all the way, the ONLY selection in the East was performance. Maybe not the most magnificent horses from a conformational point of view, but man can they do their job under saddle ....

I have lived with Trakehners and TBs all my life. I can honestly say that this breed has never had better horses than today. The success that the past 10/15 years have brought, especially with regards to the acceptance in other WB breeds (just check out the pedigrees of the last FEI World Champs in Verden, or any major approval of the past 10 years) has been very good for our egos. Unfortunately, that has also lead to the somewhat reckless waste of some absolutely heroic lines that just don't fit the market (whatever that is) right now - I personally would kill to have a stallion like Carajan around now.

And btw, as a word of warning: the best stallions of the past 30 years were Anglo Trakehners (50% AA, ox or xx). Where would we be without Arogno, Mahagoni, Consul, Habicht, Van Deyk?? And where is the next one???

Soooo, who's up for the International Breeder's Meeting this year? Tour starts at Hörstein (for those of you that never met the "King of Trakehners", Sixtus, take the chance while he's still alive!!). And then we'll head into East Germany for a tour of the State Studs. Should be very interesting!!

[SSFLandon]

Congratulatoins Stolensilver - that's outstanding news!!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for an uneventful pregnancy!!

With regards to Trakehner stallions and disciplines. I can't quite agree that they're all good for everything and so versatile that it doesn't matter what you ask them to do. There are clearly lines that do one thing better than the other. And since "purpose-bred" is the slogan of the year I'll say that there lines I wouldn't even dream of touching if I was breeding e.g. Show Jumpers and wanted to have something that can compete internationally. Just because a stallion has a few offspring doing both, I'd never go as far as to freely interchange those lines with others. Nothing is easier than to genetically screw up something like a careful selected jumper pedigree that has taken a few generations to establish.

That said, here is a very very gross generalization of a few lines and what they "do":

The king of versatility must be Habicht, or better his sire Burnus, an Angloarabian Halfbred (dam was Kisber Felver). His offspring (several generations) have competed internationally (including various Olympics) in dressage, eventing and show jumping. And the line is extremely popular and strong today because it maintains this obvious athleticism and versatility over generations. Sixtus is the epitome of that philosophy is you ask me. His sons Buddenbrock, Kasparow and Axis are clearly in a league of their own. And that is true not only looking through Trakehner glasses - these horses are super modern, super athletic, and mix well with other breeds. Btw, Burnus' full sister Amels founded a Trakehner mare family and that is represented by just th same versatility. Nice examples of the recent past: Olympian Larissa (eventing) and of course the lovely Le Rouge.

Consul and his sons, mostly Rockefeller, plus his absolutely stunning Hanoverian daughters (e.g. the dams of Don Vino, Don Freederico and Heike Kemmer's Bonaparte) are another family of horses that fit the "versatile" mantle. Those few of us that still have Consul-daughters in breeding age in the barn really sit on a pot of gold. I don't ;-)

The third highly versatile line is the aforementioned family of Hockey, that really starts with his amazing sire Pomerantes ox, a Russian Arab. Olympic dressage horses and show jumpers come from that line, and not just a few. I once read a statistic that pointed out that Hockey producer over 40 international competition horses. And while we're in the East, if show jumping is your goal, then anything with the bloodlines of the legendary Polist Poprad or his son Aspirant, Lithuanian born and US based Horalas, Waitaki, Abrek, Long Deal ..... will give you what you seek.

As for dressage, the big three would be Flaneur, Halali and Pasteur xx. The first mostly (but not exclusively) through Arogno, the second in very convincing fashion via Marduc and especially Hyllos, and the latter via Mahagoni and Michelagenlo. However, Flaneur has done a lot more for the breed than just Arogno (Don, Gajus, Memphis, Istanbul etc), and Marduc's three best sons are w/o doubt Lehndorffs, Herzzauber and Anduc. The latter has a great representative in the US in Hailo at Valhalla Farm and produces very sane, amateur-friendly performance horses that do well in dressage and the Hunters. However, I would not classify him in any way as a show jumper sire. Not if you have horses like Abdullah and his sons, Horalas or younger Tzigane and Titulus in the same country!! Hailo is not in that league as a jumper or sire of jumpers.
The other Anduc son in the US is the tremendously successful Schiffon in VA and he comes with what is lacking so badly: high quality TB in the dam line!!

Mahagoni in the US is almost exclusively Enrico Caruso and his many sons. And Kumi, way too low-key here - her lovely Kovington is probably the most successful younger ATA stallion in dressage right now. Fingers crossed for that second score my friend!!

Eventing: anything Habicht. Anything Sir Shostakovich xx, Bajar ShA (or best, a mix of them), and I would also say that Enrico C has his place here, at least at the lower levels.

Show Jumping: No, Donauwind was actually NOT a very dominant show jumper producer. In fact, most of his sons were in the dressage field. The pedigree part you want here is Pregel - big time. But what you should seek if jumpers are your program, Kassius/Suchard comes to mind right away. Suchard and his son Balisto Z were the only Trakehners ever approved by Zangersheide. Says it all. Besides, Suchard's maternal brother Sir Graditz (by the impeccable half blood Inter Graditz) is an internationally successful show jumper in the UK with earnings in excess of something like 150K Pounds. That's Holsteiner proportions for the small world of Trakehners - since we all know they "can't jump" anyway, I'm pretty impressed. And you can absolutely not walk past the Russians for the jumping aspect. Rondo was another with good jumper prepotency. Himself at S level, he produced Graditz (and with him the currently only active Grand Prix show jumper in the ATA books, Tzigane) as well as Arthus (Denmark) and Friedensfürst, whose offspring excel in jumping despite the fact that he himself was an international Grand prix dressage horse. His son Lücke is in the Hanoverian Verband Show Jumper program (as are Windfall and Special Memories, btw).

Personally, if I was starting a show jumper program, my first trip would take me to Poland and East Germany. Go find these rare Lamarc, Ralf, Nerv, Egoist, Aspirant daughters and grand daughters. They are so not en vogue right now, it's a shame. But the basis of that athleticism is undeniable. While the West was focused on breeding even more beauty into the horses and neglecting performance pretty much all the way, the ONLY selection in the East was performance. Maybe not the most magnificent horses from a conformational point of view, but man can they do their job under saddle ....

I have lived with Trakehners and TBs all my life. I can honestly say that this breed has never had better horses than today. The success that the past 10/15 years have brought, especially with regards to the acceptance in other WB breeds (just check out the pedigrees of the last FEI World Champs in Verden, or any major approval of the past 10 years) has been very good for our egos. Unfortunately, that has also lead to the somewhat reckless waste of some absolutely heroic lines that just don't fit the market (whatever that is) right now - I personally would kill to have a stallion like Carajan around now.

And btw, as a word of warning: the best stallions of the past 30 years were Anglo Trakehners (50% AA, ox or xx). Where would we be without Arogno, Mahagoni, Consul, Habicht, Van Deyk?? And where is the next one???

Soooo, who's up for the International Breeder's Meeting this year? Tour starts at Hörstein (for those of you that never met the "King of Trakehners", Sixtus, take the chance while he's still alive!!). And then we'll head into East Germany for a tour of the State Studs. Should be very interesting!!

Do not forget Shconfeld E (RIP) Great stallion! and many winners in both rings

[stolensilver]

Just had to say how much I love your posts Maren. Thankyou for sharing your knowledge with us. :)

[Kumi]

Maren has given a primer on the origins of our performance Trakehners. Of course, the old, orginal blood had to be versatile - from purpose to performance - but you can see a trend in where the different lines excelled as performance over took purpose. I have to also agree that while all horses are versatile, as I'm sure almost all dressage horses can jump a rail and all jumpers can do a shoulder in, we are definitely specializing and breeding for the higher levels of each discipline now. We have very good stallions that are performing and producing at the upper levels. And, other breeds have used Trakehner blood in their breeding for decades, as many of the top International competitors often reveal Trakehner sires or dams very close up.

Hope this has helped answer the OP's inquiry.

[TwinGates]

Personally, if I was starting a show jumper program, my first trip would take me to Poland and East Germany. Go find these rare Lamarc, Ralf, Nerv, Egoist, Aspirant daughters and grand daughters.

Unfortunately, that has also lead to the somewhat reckless waste of some absolutely heroic lines that just don't fit the market (whatever that is) right now - I personally would kill to have a stallion like Carajan around now.

Soooo, who's up for the International Breeder's Meeting this year? Tour starts at Hörstein (for those of you that never met the "King of Trakehners", Sixtus, take the chance while he's still alive!!). And then we'll head into East Germany for a tour of the State Studs. Should be very interesting!!

I'm right there w/you on Carajan; would kill to have a mare from this line. Happy you brought up Nerv & Ralf, tho. Thanks again to your little sister, Katrin for bidding for me @ NMS 2007 so I got my filly w/Nerv in the 3rd & Ralf in the 4th generation!!

Is the International Breeders Meeting @ the same time as NMS? GREAT trip for anyone who wants to further their knowledge about this breed, it's bloodlines and direction.

[paintjumper]

Sorry to abandon my on thread today but ........there was hay to make...... and at 104 degees in the shade, it wasn't taking too long!!!!! Like my papa used to say, I am smelling like the south end of a north bound mule right about now!! But I wanted to check in on you guys and see what you had to say.
Thanks a bunch.