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myvanya
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:00 AM
Ok, so for some reason the Equitation Turn on the Haunches thread reminded me of this question that recently came up at a horse show. I really have no personal attachment in the answer other than my own edification and better understanding of the rules. I will start by saying, yes, I have read the USEF jumper rules and I still can't figure out the answer to this one- maybe I'm dumb, but if I am, please just bear with me.

So, without further ado:

In a jumper class, table II.2B, if there is rider who falls in the jump off and a rider who knocks a rail in the first round (so doesn't go on to the jump off), who would place higher? (or maybe the better question is, can the person who fell place or are they considered eliminated?)

I know there was a lot of confusion on this at the last show I went to, and I still am not sure I understand the logic on this one.:confused: I know what my initial reaction was, but I have reason to believe it was not right, so I am hoping I can get some better understanding.
Thanks in advance!

Parker_Rider
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:11 AM
The rider that makes it to the jump off would place higher. She had a clear first round v. 4 faults in the first round. It's the same logic as a rider declining to ride in the jump off to save their horse for another day; they just don't place as high as those who complete the jump off successfully. However, technically they completed the first round more successfully than the other rider.

Does that make sense?

You want to really cause a tizzy, complete the first round and the jump off clear, with the winning time and fall off promptly after the timers ;) (my friend did this 4 years ago and omg the panties that got into a twist!)

Come Shine
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:14 AM
The rider (A) who falls in the jump-off places above the rider (B) who had a rail in the first round.

Rider A would have 0 faults in round 1.

Rider B would have 4 faults in round 1.

The jump-off is to determine the placings among riders who had 0 faults in the first round.

If there were only 2 riders in the class, rider A could have elected to not even do the jump-off because there was no one to jump-off against.

Rider A would be eliminated in the jump-off but that does not affect the placing over rider B.

Janet
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:13 AM
I do not know why there was any confusion, the rules are very clear.


JP141 Breaking Ties.
1. Competitors who withdraw, retire or are eliminated from a Jump-off:
a. A competitor who is eliminated in a jump-off will be tied with a competitor who retires
and will be placed last of the competitors who have completed that jump-off.
b. A competitor who withdraws (does not participate) from a jump-off must always be
placed after a competitor(s) eliminated or who retires while on the course.

A fall is just as much "elimination" as 3 refusals, no more, no less.

myvanya
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:17 AM
Ok, thanks- apparently my reading comprehension when I got to that point wasn't that fantastic.

Come Shine
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:23 AM
I think some confusion comes in when the jump-off is immediate. People see a rider off-course or worse, just off, and then get confused when they pin ahead of someone who stayed on. :)

myvanya
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:35 AM
It just seemed weird to many people at the show (not just me- it seemed weird to me but I didn't really care and it didn't effect me either way) that someone who fell in the jump off would do better just from the perspective of- you fall you are eliminated because the jump off is so immediate in a 2b class. But, when you view the jump off and the initials round as more seperate, which, based on the rules is how it should be viewed, it makes sense. Thanks for helping me understand it better- sorry for the lack of reading comprehension on that.

Giddy-up
Jun. 26, 2009, 12:20 PM
You want to really cause a tizzy, complete the first round and the jump off clear, with the winning time and fall off promptly after the timers ;) (my friend did this 4 years ago and omg the panties that got into a twist!)

Your friend still won, right?

findeight
Jun. 26, 2009, 12:24 PM
Everybody is always so "go do Jumpers, there are not so many rules"....

We get them eliminate themselves for not waiting for the whistle, not passing the timers and for crossing their line when it looks to an outsider like they were perfect.

Simplify in your mind by just thinking of the fact rider A completed more fences successfully then rider B did. That is the easiest way to keep it straight in your mind, least it works for me.

Parker_Rider
Jun. 26, 2009, 12:32 PM
Your friend still won, right?

Yep, helluva round too - her horse started bucking after every fence in the jump off... I'm amazed she hung on that long!

Come Shine
Jun. 26, 2009, 12:35 PM
Everybody is always so "go do Jumpers, there are not so many rules"....

lol! Jumper rules are a nightmare. Plus when things go south, they go really, really quickly.

I won a class once by clinging on like a monkey through the timers. Of course, the timers were right by the rail where everyone was standing. People still remind me about it. :)

myvanya
Jun. 26, 2009, 01:07 PM
LOL...yes-in many ways jumpers are far more complicated. Whenever I try to describe jumpers with any degree of accuracy to my non-horsey friends I fail every time.

And it really amazes me that so many riders get themselves eliminated for not crossing the timers- its not like they aren't really obvious in most cases; they are not a moving target. That is one I just don't get. Kind of like the people who don't bother to learn their jump off round for the 2b classes before they go in- huh? Why would you not plan ahead? Figure out where the timers are and memorize your course- all of it! (sorry...rant over :sigh: )

Not waiting for the whistle or missing the whistle I do understand- when you are nervous and hyped a fly buzzing by your ear can sound like that stupid whistle! And sometimes the judges give the whimpiest little whistle and they are really far away from you and they expect you to hear it. That blows my mind.

Come Shine
Jun. 26, 2009, 01:27 PM
... sometimes the judges give the whimpiest little whistle and they are really far away from you and they expect you to hear it. That blows my mind.

It really can be tough to hear the whistle. I love the digital count down timers because then you can see they have started the time.

myvanya
Jun. 26, 2009, 05:09 PM
A digital countdown timer to the start would be wonderful!!! I would love that!