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View Full Version : Poll: Routine Banamine post foaling?



pintopiaffe
Jun. 26, 2009, 09:23 AM
Do you routinely adminster Banamine? Or only if the mare seems to need it?

If you do, routinely, how do you administer? Oral paste, IM or IV?

Daydream Believer
Jun. 26, 2009, 09:28 AM
I generally do give it to all the mares but occasionally one of my girls does not get it. I rarely use the paste but prefer IV.

Sugarbrook
Jun. 26, 2009, 09:35 AM
I do give Banamine to most of my mares after foaling and after they pass the placenta. I give it orally and that was not one of the choices!

showjumpers66
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:08 AM
I do not give Banamine post foaling unless the mare is showing discomfort. I always give it IV.

alliekat
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:11 AM
I don't give it unless I feel there is a need for it.

clint
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:28 AM
I would only give it post foaling after the placenta had passed, and if I thought there was a need for it. So far, I have never given it.

Edgewood
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:44 AM
I would only give it post foaling after the placenta had passed, and if I thought there was a need for it
Ditto. I did use it this year for a maiden who had a very fast labor and was quite crampy. She wanted so much to be near her foal, but I was afraid that she might roll on her (even in a big stall 18x24). She got oral liquid banamine and responded very quickly.

I have also give banamine before the placenta passed after a bad dystocia because of its anti-endotoxic properties. I had a mare who took 5 days to pass her placenta and the vets at New Bolton were very pleased that she got banamine immediately post getting the dead foal out (along with oxytocin). They said that it is important in dystocias to give it because the antiendotoxic properties outweigh the quiescencent properties on the endometrium.

Marion Dresel-O`Connor
Jun. 26, 2009, 10:48 AM
We always give it right after foaling. Now if you give it orally, please use the paste, not the liquid. It is like acid on their tongues, try it yourself and you`ll never make your horse swallow that.

Home Again Farm
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:52 AM
I used to give it as soon as the placenta passed.

I quit doing so the year that I lost a mare to a twisted colon 20 hours after foaling. I will never know if the Banamine masked her pain or not. All I know is that she foaled duing the day (2 PM), was fine all day long, fine at 10 PM, 2 AM and 6 AM (when I fed her breakfast). At 8:30 AM I found her cast in her stall and in agony that I had never before seen in any horse. By 10 AM she was at the vet school and at noon she was lost on the surgical table.

Since then, I do not give Banamine routinely. I really want to see how they feel and if there is any real problem, I want to have the mare checked asap. Hindsight... Sigh...

FLIPPED HER HALO
Jun. 26, 2009, 05:04 PM
The farm I do foal watch at give it IV to all the mares post foaling. I gave it to my mare as well - She was so crampy after she foaled she got up, circled and went back down rolling and thrashing until she cast herself. Luckily we'd gotten her colt to the other side of the stall.

She was fine after it kicked in and we got her back up.

FriesianX
Jun. 26, 2009, 05:35 PM
I have a question about IM - isn't Banamine one of those drugs that can really cause problems IM? I've NEVER known anyone to give it IM - either paste (oral) or IV.

I only give if a mare seems crampy after passing her placenta, or she seems swollen and sore. Never before the placenta is passed.

Daventry
Jun. 26, 2009, 05:41 PM
I have a question about IM - isn't Banamine one of those drugs that can really cause problems IM?



That is correct!

I have never given any of my mares anything after foaling, except for oxytocin to a mare who was having trouble passing the placenta!

FLIPPED HER HALO
Jun. 26, 2009, 06:43 PM
I have a question about IM - isn't Banamine one of those drugs that can really cause problems IM?

Yes! You aren't supposed to give it IM as it is known to cause abcesses in the muscle.

Sugarbrook
Jun. 26, 2009, 07:38 PM
The University of Florida, School of Vet. Medicine is the one who advised giving the banamine via mouth. After many trips there it is still their suggestion. I am meaning via mouth if IV is not an option. IM IS NOT AN OPTION> Paste is fine also, if you have it on hand.
OH< and YES, it is YUCK tasting. I tried it (not a dose, LOL, just on my finger).

FriesianX
Jun. 26, 2009, 07:47 PM
Yes! You aren't supposed to give it IM as it is known to cause abcesses in the muscle.


That is what I thought! So was surprised to see it as an option. Regarding Banamine by the mouth (Univ of FL) - were they talking about paste banamine, or the injectible given orally? I just asked a vet about this the other day, and they said it is pretty "caustic" - good luck with that :eek: At least the paste is semi-palatable and formulated specifically for oral ingestion.

Hillside H Ranch
Jun. 26, 2009, 07:58 PM
That is what I thought! So was surprised to see it as an option. Regarding Banamine by the mouth (Univ of FL) - were they talking about paste banamine, or the injectible given orally? I just asked a vet about this the other day, and they said it is pretty "caustic" - good luck with that :eek: At least the paste is semi-palatable and formulated specifically for oral ingestion.


Banamine orally is fine, but it does taste atrocious. I have taken it myself, orally, in a glass of orange juice more than once and it is hideous, but certainly not caustic.

In regards to the question; I only give Banamine post-foaling if the mare seems to need it, which isn't often. Always IV.

Laurierace
Jun. 26, 2009, 08:32 PM
Banamine orally is fine, but it does taste atrocious. I have taken it myself, orally, in a glass of orange juice more than once and it is hideous, but certainly not caustic.

In regards to the question; I only give Banamine post-foaling if the mare seems to need it, which isn't often. Always IV.

That is the way I took it too. Absolutely HORRID tasting. I never give banamine post foaling unless they need it. I want to know if the mare is uncomfortable, not cover it up. I won't hesitate to give it if she is showing signs of discomfort though, its not like I want her to suffer needlessly.

Equine Reproduction
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:12 PM
I have a question about IM - isn't Banamine one of those drugs that can really cause problems IM? I've NEVER known anyone to give it IM - either paste (oral) or IV.

Banamine can be given IM. It's phenylbutazone that cannot be safely given IM. From the Banamine package insert:


For Intravenous or Intramuscular Use in Horses and for Intravenous Use in Beef and Dairy Cattle. Not for Use in Dry Dairy Cows and Veal Calves.

As others have noted, prophylactic use of Banamine peri- or post-foaling may cause problems as it is a prostaglandin secretion inhibitor. Prostaglandin of course is the hormone that is secreted during foaling, passage of the placenta, and post-foaling uterine involution that causes all of those things to take place. Anthropomorphizing and "giving the mare some Banamine because she must feel uncomfortable post-foaling" can lead to all kinds of complications. Remember that uterine contractions post foaling clean all of that unpleasant "guck" (a technical term) that's associated with foaling out of the uterus. Failure to clear that can have some pretty unpleasant effects far worse than a little cramping...

Daydream Believer
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:29 PM
I want to add one thing to my earlier post and I did not understand that the initial question was to give Banamine immediately post foaling and before the placenta passes. I only give Banamine, unless there is a lot of discomfort in the mare, after the placenta is passed.

However, our vets here strongly encourage Banamine post foaling for all mares as they have found that mares that are even moderately uncomfortable from the delivery will eat, drink, and poop less and are more likely to become impacted. So, I take their advice with the more sensitive type mares and have had no problems yet doing so.

I don't always give Banamine with every single mare regardless of how she is doing but if she's acting sore or crampy to where she is more preoccupied with her own body than taking care of her foal, I won't hesitate to give her Banamine IV.

Maddie
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:37 PM
I've only given it once to a maiden that was very sore and tender plus dealing with a newborn she loved but wasn't willing to feed.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:46 PM
Something that was kind of puzzling to me - I have probably foaled out over 100 mares on my farm, and never needed to give Banamine after foaling, BUT when I left to manage another farm for a season, every mare there was crampy, and not taking care of where they were stomping, rolling, etc. ALL of them I needed to give a bit of Banamine to. I believe I only gave them about 3 cc, but they definitely needed it. Strange.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 26, 2009, 11:54 PM
Something that was kind of puzzling to me - I have probably foaled out over 100 mares on my farm, and never needed to give Banamine after foaling, BUT when I left to manage another farm for a season, every mare there was crampy, and not taking care of where they were stomping, rolling, etc. ALL of them I needed to give a bit of Banamine to. I believe I only gave them about 3 cc, but they definitely needed it. Strange.

Were the mares a different breed than your own? I've found some of the show horse types my clients have to be very sensitive and reactive to discomfort. I deal with a lot of Arabians and Saddlebreds in particular.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 27, 2009, 12:49 AM
Nope. They were Hanoverians and TBs, but that is what I have foaled at home, along with QHs, Appys, Arabians, and other Warmbloods.

pintopiaffe
Jun. 27, 2009, 01:43 PM
Interesting... so what was different? Feed? Turnout? Something has to be different... ???

Thanks for all the answers. I've learned quite a bit! Glad I asked!

I asked because, like Fairview, I worked at a farm that routinely administered the paste post foaling.

I have only done it in the case of retained placenta.

I have to meet the vet next week though to freshen up my stocks, and wondered if I was missing something... ;)

I also had heard about not doing Banamine IM, and yet the vet has always left me with a couple doses drawn up in case of colic as he is a minimum of 1hr response time. The doses are for IM as I only started learning how to do IV last year. I think I *could*, but am not confident.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 27, 2009, 03:35 PM
Different grain, different hay, different pasture. I had foaled out probably 50 mares before I managed that farm, and had never even thought about giving one Banamine. None ever had me worried. When I took the job, the previous manager, who was my mentor years before, was going over some things, and casually mentioned Banamine. I questioned her about the dose she used, as I was pretty "deer caught in the headlights".

Sure enough, the first mare had me VERY worried about her hurting the foal. She was fine after the small dose.

As for Banamine IM, I gave all Banamine IM for decades with no problems. It IS labeled for IM, and problems are rare but nasty when they happen.
http://www.thehorse.com//ViewArticle.aspx?ID=6466&eID=128903

2foals
Jun. 28, 2009, 05:21 PM
I do usually give it (IV), based on advice from my vet. I don't have a strong opinion about it though. If an experienced mare didn't need it, I might not give it.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 28, 2009, 07:02 PM
I had a vet come here to assist foaling one of my boarder's mares. I had fixed the leg that was stuck back (easy fix), and delievered the foal before he arrived. The mare was still down, had not passed the placenta, totally comfortable and nickering to her foal. He came into the stall and tried to tried to pull on the placenta. It had only been 15 - 20 minutes since delivery.

I stopped him, and he got a big attitude. Then he went to his truck, and came back and tried to give her Banamine. I stopped him again. He told me he had been foaling for 25 years, and knew what he was doing. I had to tell him that if he insisted on giving the Banamine before she passed the placenta, and pulling on the placenta, that he needed to move the mare off my property first.

Of course, he immediately convinced his clients in my barn that I was a horrble barn manager, and they all moved out within a month or two.

sid
Jun. 28, 2009, 07:20 PM
I've never given it post foaling. I'd rather not mask an underlying problem that the mare might display post foaling so as not to miss something that may be amiss with the mare.

Of course, if the mare is deemed to have foaling complication like retained placenta, laminitis or some other problem where Banamine is deemed therapeutic (I've had only one) I do give it under veterinary instruction.

Having some level of discomfort may be expected for any female mammal post-partum and they usually deal with and get on with tending to young. If the pain level is such that they are ignoring their young, I suspect there is something "more to it" and call the vet.

ise@ssl
Jun. 28, 2009, 07:34 PM
First of all Banamine SHOULD NOT be given IM.
We do give our mares Banamine post foaling but only AFTER they have passed the placenta - otherwise you run the risk of having the mare not respond to pushing on the cramping to get the placenta out.

We also give it orally and as another person pointed out that wasn't a choice. Squirting it in their mouth gets in in there system faster than IV and it's EASIER.

MaresNest
Jun. 28, 2009, 07:42 PM
Banamine can be given IM. It's phenylbutazone that cannot be safely given IM. From the Banamine package insert:

Well, Bute given IM is a total disaster. I took care of a horse when I worked in the hospital who had been given 4 grams! of Bute IM. That was the bloodiest, most awful mess I ever saw. Even taking into account all the colic surgeries, dystocias, and C-sections.

But I also took care of broodmares in the hospital who had been given Banamine IM on the farm post foaling and developed painful injection site abscesses. So, while Banamine is labelled for IM use, I would NEVER do it. And the vets I worked with would NEVER advise it.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 28, 2009, 08:25 PM
only AFTER they have passed the placenta - otherwise you run the risk of having the mare not respond to pushing on the cramping to get the placenta out.

Actually Banamine can stop the cramping, and that cramping is necessary not only to release the placenta, but as Kathy noted, to deal with clearing out the other post foaling "garbage", plus involution of the uterus. If a mare does not clear that "gunk" out of the uterus, she can become really ill, high fever, and still founder, even though she passed the placenta normally.

Ladybug Hill
Jun. 28, 2009, 09:56 PM
I would only give Banamine if the mare were a danger to herself or the foal, but then again I am not a believer in how casually horses are given medications these days.

I have given it both IM and IV depending on the situation, the mare, and my comfort level. Never had any problems.

fivehorses
Jun. 28, 2009, 10:10 PM
edgewood, I am impressed with your vocabulary. What about putting it in common english? so some of us can understand. Even if a vet spoke to me like that, I'd be pissed.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 28, 2009, 10:42 PM
edgewood, I am impressed with your vocabulary. What about putting it in common english? so some of us can understand. Even if a vet spoke to me like that, I'd be pissed.

She said that when dealing with a bad dystocia and retained placenta, the need for the anti-inflammatory and fever controlling properties (helping to stop them from becoming toxic) of Banamine, out weigh not wanting it to stop the mild contractions (quiescencent = quieting/inactive). Generally in those cases, you are flushing the mare, and that does the work of the contractions in helping the mare to clean out.

I prefer a vet to speak to me like that, because I know they are respecting me as a partner in health care of my horses. Also because the terminology has meanings that are specific, and not easily or accurately translated when you try to use more basic language.

Home Again Farm
Jun. 29, 2009, 11:37 AM
edgewood, I am impressed with your vocabulary. What about putting it in common english? so some of us can understand. Even if a vet spoke to me like that, I'd be pissed.

Edgewood has considerable education in equine repro and such terminology comes naturally to her, as it does to many on this board. I see no reason to ask people to dumb down what they write. When asked, most are more than happy to explain further. :yes:


I prefer a vet to speak to me like that, because I know they are respecting me as a partner in health care of my horses. Also because the terminology has meanings that are specific, and not easily or accurately translated when you try to use more basic language.

I agree.

fivehorses
Jun. 29, 2009, 07:02 PM
I think when anyone, vets, md's, or lawyers speak in their language is a bit over the top.
I have a master's degree, not in vet medicine and I don't find it embarrassing to ask someone to speak in common language so I can understand.
Anyone who cannot do that is either arrogant or rude imo.

This is not a vet board, but a horse owners board. I found edgewood may be extremely knowledgable, but if she can't explain it in common terms, than I am not impressed.

This is about adminstering banamine, which most horse owners keep on hand, not some serious medical condition which would warrant speaking in medicalese.

Fairview Horse Center
Jun. 29, 2009, 08:06 PM
I don't think she was speaking in vet language. I am not a vet, but I can copy and paste into dictionary.com. Checking just a few of her words can allow anyone to understand what she said - even someone with MUCH less education than a Master's.

I want people on this board to share their knowledge in any way they are willing. We are not paying them to be here.

You did ask for a clarification, and I am sure she would have been happy to. There was no need to add that you would be pissed even if a vet spoke to you like that. That was arrogant AND rude.

By the way, the word is then, not than. Also knowledgeable, and administering need spelling proofreading.


may be extremely knowledgable,... This is about adminstering banamine ... if she can't explain it in common terms, than I am not impressed.


Dystocia and retained placenta for several days are most certainly serious medical conditions.


not some serious medical condition which would warrant speaking in medicalese.