Breeding Mares -- how to decide?

[EMWalker]

I was reading the Brentina x Kingston thread and JB brought up a good point that not all mares should be bred, and I COMPLETELY agree.

So, how do you decide if your mare is special enough to be bred? What qualities are most sought after?

I LOVE my mare but I want some unbiased opinions. So mare and stallion owners... what makes a GREAT breeding mare?

Thanks in advance!

Here are some pics of my girl, for reference:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2949452030029367528UxcAiq
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2783826150029367528HYsyTJ
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2363487560029367528pZRrrw
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2888810130029367528brXxCX
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2583944780029367528WbCnpo

I would be totally happy with a carbon copy of her with a bigger stride! But am really interested in hearing how real breeders decide which mares are really worth breeding.

[avezan]

I don't know if I qualify as a "real" breeder. ;) I'm definitely not a professional breeder. My FIRST 2 qualities that I look for in a mare or stallion for that matter are temperament and soundness. You can have the best looking, fanciest moving horse in the world, but if you can't ride it, what's the point? :) So if your mare has had a performance career and has stayed sound throughout, that is a very good sign. You can certainly judge her temperament. Then I look for athletic ability. Then movement and conformation.

Your mare is gorgeous. One of the conditions for breeding a mare is that you should be happy with a carbon copy of the mare, with all of her faults. So she has passed that test already. She looks very athletic. Now to complete your decision, you have to read all the comments about how it is probably cheaper to buy a nice foal, then to raise one yourself, etc. etc. There are risks. You could lose the mare. I am wondering about breeding my mare right now. She has a temperament to die for, striking to look at and very athletic. She has a few minor conformation flaws. She is sound at age 13. I might take her to an inspection this fall and get the inspector's opinions of her. I also don't want to stop riding her to have a foal. But my biggest fear is losing the mare. I just couldn't handle that! She was bred by me as well.

[showjumpers66]

Love the jumping pics of your girl. As long as she is correct in conformation, then I would say that she is exactly what someone would want for a hunter breeding program. She has had a performance career, looks like she is a good type, and I assume that she is rideable???.

For the jumper broodmares, we first look at their type, gaits, and athletic ability and then at their pedigree. They must have all the pieces.

[Oakstable]

Lovely mare. Who is she?

[Mythology]

When I look at any mare to evaluate for a potential broodmare I look at the following- (not nessissarily in this order):
1 Conformation- any major flaws disqualifies immediately, then look at minor flaws and decide what you can live with and what you cannot have.
2 Bloodlines- My mares need to have quality warmblood lines and be registered in the main book of a quality registry, but bloodline preference is individual to each breeder. There are paticular lines I like and look for, but again that is personal preference.
3 Movement- What are you looking to prouduce out of the mare, hunter? Jumper? Dressage? Is the mare's movement good enough quality that if the baby wasn't as nice as her it would still be a quality foal?
4 Genetic abnormalities- tilted vulva can lead to uterine infections, etc.
5 Age, breeding history, preformance history- Is the maiden mare too old to start a new broodie career? Has she been bred and had problems catching or delivering or mothering? Has she been shown and how did she do?
6 Temperment- Foals take after their mother. Make sure she is friendly and easy to handle.
7 Soundness- Is any unsoundness due to genetic factors or lifetime injuries?
8 Personal preferences- Some people hate chestnuts or greys, some dislike large mares or mares under 16.1, Some people love bays with chrome, pintos, no white, flat croups, nice heads. Pick what extras are importand to you and put it on the list.
9- Overall. Look at the mare over all and determine what qualities are the most importand to you as no mare is perfect. Decide what you absoulately cannot have and what you can overlook. Breeding is a job with a lot of personal responsibility. You have to make sure that the foal will have every available opportunity.
In my opinion, based only on the pics she is well conformed for a hunter, has a sweet look, good hunter movement and jump. I would think seriously about breeding her to a nice, well known hunter, maybe Sir Caletto, Balta'czar, Popeye K.
Just remember- more than 50% of foals are not as nice as the dam and sire, so make sure that you give the foal the best chance to be great and then don't get your hopes up for perfection. Good Luck.

[Nes]

She's certainly lovely enough to breed, what a pretty jump! I would look for a stallion with a more laid-back shoulder and better balance (she looks a little downhill), which will give you a bigger stride.

When you breed I think you do it for two reasons
(1) Personal
(2) To improve your breed or sport

When you're breeding for yourself (personal) you're doing it because you like the horse you have but want to change a few things to suit your riding style/competitive needs. You put as much thought and effort into creating a great horse as you would if you were going to sell, but maybe your goal is a horse who is a little shorter then average, or a nice colour.

The other time you're breeding you're doing it to improve your sport or breed, and then you should be looking a horses with top preformance records, registry test scores or proven foals.

[EMWalker]

Thank you for all the comments. They were all really helpful.
Oakstable, she is my pre-green / Low A/O hunter mare. Her show name is Sahalee.

Like I said, I would be completely happy with a carbon copy of this horse. She is a fantastic temperament, is a 10 mover, very sound and will probably do the Green Conformations next year.

Things I would like to improve on is to get something slightly taller (she's 15.3 and that is fine with me but I don't want smaller) and with a bigger stride. She is the hack winner or top 3 in best company. She won the 18-35 A/A hack in Ocala this winter with 40 horses so she can move! She is really lazy and tends to be oh so casual with the jumps. She is still a little green so I hope she grows out of that. She is actually very athletic but just chooses not to be. I'm hoping for a baby that is more careful but not spooky.

I'm actually considering Cunningham for her. I had the opportunity to see him in California and he would add height and a bit of refinement. He is big without being too bulky. I ruled out Popeye K because my mare is like a big ol' pony. She needs a stallion with a longer neck to improve on her short neck. Popeye is really bulky and she doesn't need any more bulk. I'm not crazy about Sir Calletto's head only because she could use refinement in her head and neck. I like the fact that Cunningham has a really impressive show record. She is a better mover then he is so hopefully a baby would get her movement. I'm not crazy about getting a grey baby but I haven't found another stallion that would complement her as well as he would that isn't grey.

I'm considering doing ET with her so she can keep competing in the greens and the A/O's with me.

The only downfall of this mare (and it could be a big one!) is that I don't have papers for her!!! She could be Pony of America for all I know! I have tried to get in touch with the people we bought her from but so far have been unsuccessful. Is this going to cause a major problem?

Here is pic of us in the jog. It's the closest thing I have to a conformation picture:
http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=09IK00CUDR0033&po=39
You will actually be surprised Nes, for hunter, she is really not downhill at all. She has fantastic balance. But that is also another reason I'm considering Cunningham is because he is built slightly uphill.

[Mythology]

Cunningham would be a nice cross as well. I agree that the Voltaire line throws bulk as does Nimmerdor. The papers could be an issue. The foal will be registerable in the B book usually of whatever registry the stallion is approved in, however it worries me to breed without knowing the pedigree incase of inbreeding. I have the same issue with a very nice OLD mare, were still hunting the papers down. Anyway she is very nice I wish you all the best luck in breeding her by AI.

[Oakstable]

Regardez in Canada?
He looks very elegant.

The first mare I bred had no papers and her first kid was phenomenal.

[Edgewood]

Apiro has a lovely head and long neck and has done really well in the working hunter and now A/O divisions. I know that they recommend more blooded mares, and since you don't know your mare's pedigree, that would be an unknown. Nonetheless, I am very impressed with his foals and young horses who are just started under saddle.

Also, he has his share of hack wins to his credit and can jump the moon. I personally find him "prettier" than Popeye.

Westeporte is another lovely hunter stallion. I know that he wins the hack too. I don't think that he is jumping in the hunters at as high a level as Apiro is. Probably, based on his pedigree, he wouldn't have as much scope either over big jumper jumps. His babies are lovely too.

[Nes]

If you measure her from the thickest part of her neck back to her point of hip (at least in the two pictures) she is sloped downhill, just go out and have a look at her in person.

[paulamc]

As a breeder i am always on the lookout for good mares. and they are not easy to find either

The first thing i look for in a mare is pedigree - if i like the pedigree i may be interested in the mare
I will never be interested in just a stunning looking mare, if i dont like the pedigree i dont want the mare

Of course conformation plays quite a big part as well, but one of the biggest lessons i have learned (the hard way of course) is that most of my best producing mares are certainly not my best types. But for some reason, they are able to reassemble the genes in ways that other mares, who may be better types, cannot

I personally like mares to have good riding horse conformation, with the hindquarter lower than the wither - for dressage, and a lovely big front with very good shoulder.
I also like a very strong back

Other things i am prepared to overlook, depending on what they are

Temperament is very important, but having said that, i have two mares by Jazz who are really quite hot. They are way too talented to sell on, so i am very careful with who i put them too, usually to R or F lines stallions or good holstein lines

As long as the progeny are trainable i dont mind if they are fairly sensitive.

I would much rather have an ordinary looking mare from a very good performance family, than a stunning looking mare from a not so good family, as they will never breed on, they dont have the genes to pass on

i also like mares to have a presence about them, be feminine and friendly. i like mares that come up to me in the paddock, not ones who run away in fear or are unfriendly

i love mares who seem to reproduce to the stallion exactly, where they are like giant big incubator for the genes of the stallion. These mares are very hard to come by

I also like my mares to have a very strong dam line, not just be by the sire of the minute

I would be very intersted to hear from other breeders on this

Paulamc

[Mythology]

Try G line mares - Their known to throw the stallion, mine certaintly is. She is by Griseldi (Grosso Z x Graphit) and out of a Larino mare (Larino x Gottlob). I too look at the bloodlines first, in most cases, I agree that the genes are better seen through the pedigree than through the phenotype. JMHO :)

[JB]

Oh man, you don't even know her breeding? That stinks - I wanna know!!

For me, not only should you not be upset with a carbon copy of the mare, but that mare/carbon copy should be something that OTHER people would want. Even those who say they would breed for keeps cannot EVER guarantee that foal won't end up in someone else's hands. You should make sure, as best you can, that the foal would be of value to someone else.

You can luuuuuuv your mare all you want, but if you love her despite the fact that she's a barrel on toothpicks and has a parrot mouth, wellllll.....

I don't have a problem with folks breeding unpapered horses, *as long as* they are a good ambassador to the horse population in general, both in terms of conformation and temperament. Your mare 1000% qualifies, she is just stunning. Perfect? No. But her flaws, minor as they are, can fairly reliably be fixed by choosing a stallion who is known for putting a good X on a horse - shoulder, back length, stride, height, neck lenght, whatever.

But you should not breed a mare who's one and only flaw on an otherwise perfect confo is that she's post-legged as you cannot expect a stallion to fix that, and then you likely end up with another post-legged horse which stands a much higher chance of becoming unsound earlier in life.

[Waterwitch]

If you measure her from the thickest part of her neck back to her point of hip (at least in the two pictures) she is sloped downhill, just go out and have a look at her in person.

Just wanted to point out that this may not be accurate for some horses depending on the angle and shape of the wings of the ilium, although it is an easy anatomical landmark to "eyeball".

The caudal anatomical point for evaluating "uphill/downhill" is the lumbosacral joint, which lies 4 inches or so deep to the tuber sacrale (the highest point of the croup).

OP - LOVELY mare :-)

[JB]

You also cannot ignore the angle from the stifle to the elbow. A horse can be very level on the topline but have a very long hind leg and shallow waist and be very downhill in movement. I can't say I've ever seen a horse that angles up to the elbow - not sure I'd want to :lol: so all horses, afaik, will be "downhill" in some regard in that line. But the more it approaches horizontal, the more uphill the horse in build and movement.

[springer]

Specifically to Mythology:
You would rule out breeding a mare because of a "lifetime" injury?
My 2 yr old Balta Czar filly was injured as a yearling (sprain of her RH fetlock joint) and that has now developed into secondary joint disease (arthritis) due to my not managing her recovery well. She is only minimally lame. Would this disqualify her as a good broodmare prospect in your opinion?? Hope the registries don't agree with you. She was a silver premium RPSI filly; lovely and very sweet.

[Waterwitch]

You also cannot ignore the angle from the stifle to the elbow. A horse can be very level on the topline but have a very long hind leg and shallow waist and be very downhill in movement. I can't say I've ever seen a horse that angles up to the elbow - not sure I'd want to :lol: so all horses, afaik, will be "downhill" in some regard in that line. But the more it approaches horizontal, the more uphill the horse in build and movement.


Have a look at the sorrel quarter horse on page 3 of this Hilary Clayton article:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/dressage-today/DrClaytonCollection.pdf

This horse is nearly level from stifle (the actual JOINT not the patella) to elbow, yet is clearly downhill if you look at the line from the lumbosacral joint to the skeletal base of his neck (and even in this case, croup to withers, which isn't always the case depending on muscling).

[Mythology]

Specifically to Mythology:
You would rule out breeding a mare because of a "lifetime" injury?
My 2 yr old Balta Czar filly was injured as a yearling (sprain of her RH fetlock joint) and that has now developed into secondary joint disease (arthritis) due to my not managing her recovery well. She is only minimally lame. Would this disqualify her as a good broodmare prospect in your opinion?? Hope the registries don't agree with you. She was a silver premium RPSI filly; lovely and very sweet.

OH NO- What I meant was that if the lameness is genetic it's a no go- If it's from lifetime injuries- It's not an issue.
Sorry I wasn't clear:D

[JB]

Have a look at the sorrel quarter horse on page 3 of this Hilary Clayton article:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications/dressage-today/DrClaytonCollection.pdf

This horse is nearly level from stifle (the actual JOINT not the patella) to elbow, yet is clearly downhill if you look at the line from the lumbosacral joint to the skeletal base of his neck (and even in this case, croup to withers, which isn't always the case depending on muscling).

Sure, I'm just saying, looking at just one aspect is not enough to say a horse is or isn't downhill.

I find it interesting though that she's saying he's downhill because his withers are lower than his croup. he doesn't HAVE withers :lol: So would she say he wasn't downhill if he had average withers?