Judges: how would you judge this eq class scenario?

[Renn/aissance]

You are judging a medal flat phase. You have called for the ring to walk and reverse directions, but do not specify a method of reverse. You see one rider reverse with a correct turn on the haunches from the walk. Do you take note of this? Has that rider moved up in your estimation? Does it affect the way you will pin that rider? Do you ignore it, or mark it down, because you did not specifically call for a turn on the haunch to reverse?

This came up today and I am curious to see if the answer I got today was personal preference or the way it's done. :)

[supershorty628]

My trainer is an 'R' judge and marks down for something like that; if she did not ask for it, she does not wish to see it.

Edited to add: It's sort of like if the judge asked for a posting trot and one exhibitor did an extended trot to show off. Not necessary and not asked for.

[horsestablereview]

I rode a lot of eq and never considered or saw anyone do a turn on the haunches in a flat class. A half turn was generally the way to go unless otherwise specified.

[Celeritas]

Not a judge, but I agree with supershorty- I've always been taught that in an eq class, you don't "add" anything that you're not specifically asked to do.

[findeight]

At best it's a wash because it was not asked for and may even have been sort of a road block in a big class.

Personally, I would not minus it but they would not get any pluses either-and if they screwed it up it would not sit well with me as they tried to show off and blew it.

You always have to give a little leeway as the announcer may not have given a clear command. BUT Eq riders are usually, and correctly, schooled to do what is asked and not hang themselves with rope not provided, if you get my drift here.

[Daventry]

Responding to the judges directions is like Simon Says. If everybody was asked to walk...and then halt....and then asked to reverse, then the only option is to do a turn on the haunches or turn on the forehand. BUT, if that judge directed the class to walk...and then just said reverse, there would be absolutely NO reason to halt, do a turn on the haunches and then proceed to walk forward. Simon Says!

[Daventry]

At best it's a wash because it was not asked for and may even have been sort of a road block in a big class.

Personally, I would not minus it but they would not get any pluses either-and if they screwed it up it would not sit well with me as they tried to show off and blew it.

You always have to give a little leeway as the announcer may not have given a clear command. BUT Eq riders are usually, and correctly, schooled to do what is asked and not hang themselves with rope not provided, if you get my drift here.

Agreed on all points! :yes::yes:

[RugBug]

BUT, if that judge directed the class to walk...and then just said reverse, there would be absolutely NO reason to halt, do a turn on the haunches and then proceed to walk forward. Simon Says!

You do a turn on the haunches FROM the walk..no halt...so technically, you ARE following the judges direction. :winkgrin: Just like you could choose to do a half turn in reverse, a half turn, cut across the diagonal, etc.

I think the turn on the haunches was to Reverse in an Eq class as the Sitting trot was to the opening circle in Eq. It was a fad to show that you could do something well. But a lot of people couldn't do it well and judges got tired of seeing it done poorly.

If I could do a TOH well, I might do it. If the judges doesn't like it, so be it. But I would only attempt it if I thought I could do it realy well.

[findeight]

I announce, frequently for R judges who are very specific. If they want a turn on the haunches they will ask for a reverse with a turn on the haunches. If they want a walk/reverse and continue to walk, they will tell me to ask for that.

It IS Simon says-if you are not sure it was specifically asked for, do NOT hang yourself by demonstrating it. Actually, a turn on the haunch in a big flat class is asking for trouble-best saved for a work off or test...especially of you are the only person trying to pivot while everybody else is already going the other way-puts you broadside of the rest of the traffic.

[Ben and Me]

If everybody was asked to walk...and then halt....and then asked to reverse, then the only option is to do a turn on the haunches or turn on the forehand.

I'm pretty sure a turn on the haunches done correctly is done through the walk. So, the only correct way to do a reverse from a halt is a turn on the forehand.

[RugBug]

If they want a walk/reverse and continue to walk, they will tell me to ask for that.

Do they tell you how? As I previously said, there are many ways to walk/reverse.


especially of you are the only person trying to pivot while everybody else is already going the other way-puts you broadside of the rest of the traffic.

I don't understand this. At some point, each horse is broadside of the "traffic" when reversing. In fact, a TOH takes up less space than any other type of reverse, so you would be less in the way.

FWIW, I usually won't get all fancy. I keep it pretty simple: but a TOH is in keeping with a walk/reverse command...and it WAS the fad not too many years ago (well...maybe it was more than I care to admit).

[Daventry]

You do a turn on the haunches FROM the walk..no halt...so technically, you ARE following the judges direction. :winkgrin: Just like you could choose to do a half turn in reverse, a half turn, cut across the diagonal, etc.



Actually, a turn on the haunches can either be executed from the walk or the halt. My point is, Simon Says. If the judge didn't ask for it, there's no need to throw it in there!

[joiedevie99]

Actually, a turn on the haunches can either be executed from the walk or the halt. My point is, Simon Says. If the judge didn't ask for it, there's no need to throw it in there!

I beg to disagree about it properly being executed from the halt - just not possible. You have to keep the walk rhythm in a turn on the haunches. If you try it from the halt, you will be pivoting on the hind legs, not picking them up in the walk rhythm and placing them back down in the same or very similar spot.

But, I totally agree that you shouldn't do it if its not asked for- a properly executed turn on the haunches is at best dead even with the rest. I'd rather not see it if I didn't ask for it- but I probably wouldn't knock someone who does it right.

[Paragon]

This is interesting to me. A trainer at the farm where I ride is a small-time judge and one of the first thing she did when she started teaching there was have everyone learn the turn on the haunches, saying that it's perfect for reversing directions in flat classes.

[findeight]

Do they tell you how? As I previously said, there are many ways to walk/reverse.

I don't understand this. At some point, each horse is broadside of the "traffic" when reversing.

The typical command is "reverse and continue to walk" which means you just do a half turn and go the other way without breaking gait.

When you try to turn on the haunches with the butt on the rail you ARE broadside to the rest of the traffic that just turned around and went the other way along the main track next to the rail. I see at least one get hung up on this-or get others hung up on them- at most shows with big classes. Not pretty. If you insist on doing what is not asked for, you better be darned quick about it and get out of the way.

[MintHillFarm]

I am ok with it, and have seen it in flat phases that I've judged. If performed though, it better be darn near perfect!

[mg]

I beg to disagree about it properly being executed from the halt - just not possible. You have to keep the walk rhythm in a turn on the haunches. If you try it from the halt, you will be pivoting on the hind legs, not picking them up in the walk rhythm and placing them back down in the same or very similar spot.

I've practiced turn on the haunches from a halt with my dressage trainer and done them properly without pivoting. Sure, you have to ride more with your seat to get the rhythm back, but it's definitely possible!

[brummelhorsefarm]

On a lighter note:

In my first flat class of my first show I backed my pony when the judge called for a change of direction/reverse.

:yes: :lol:

[MHM]

I am curious to see if the answer I got today was personal preference or the way it's done. :)

This is a thing that will be personal preference for each individual judge, so unless you know what that particular judge prefers, it's safer not to do it.

I don't count against it if it's done well, but I will not be impressed if it's not done well.

Some judges definitely take off points for it, even if it's done well, if they didn't ask for it.

[Renn/aissance]

Thanks to all for all of your responses. :) This came up in a clinic with a BNT today. He was talking about making yourself seen and attracting the judge's eye in the flat phase, so when he called us to "walk; reverse and walk" I reversed turn on the haunches from the walk. He said that because he had not asked for that I was not getting any points from it and that I should have just turned around. I was coming sort of from where RugBug was; I seem to remember either watching people do it to reverse or hearing about people doing it, so I've done it in flat phases to reverse before. This is the first time I've heard feedback on it. I'm glad to hear everyone's different points of view--it's educational! :)

[GrantanaKC]

I remember the days when it was suggested that a proper TOH was considered a good way to catch the judges eye. I did it more than a few times myself. Renn, I would have done the same thing! If I ever do an adult eq class again, I will have to keep this in mind. IF. Haha.

[Wanderluster]

The typical command is "reverse and continue to walk" which means you just do a half turn and go the other way without breaking gait.

When you try to turn on the haunches with the butt on the rail you ARE broadside to the rest of the traffic that just turned around and went the other way along the main track next to the rail. I see at least one get hung up on this-or get others hung up on them- at most shows with big classes. Not pretty. If you insist on doing what is not asked for, you better be darned quick about it and get out of the way.

Pure bullshit. A turn on the haunches executed perfectly is a standard for changing direction. You have been influenced by modern judges wanting to maintain a level of mediocrity because that change of direction forces a rider to understand forward and restraint aids and.... is really a difficult movement for most riders to perform adequately forget flawlessly. :eek: I would recommend that my rider take chances if given a non specific command in a flat class.
Because today's performance is based on ribbons awarded fewer riders attempt the more demanding challenges.... obviously announcers get miffed when a foolhearty exhibitor chooses to exhibit for better or worse their initiative to correctly change directions.
Half turn~~~ give me an ambitious 8 year old and a couple of months and she/he will execute that very well at the walk. :)

[twobays]

I see at least one get hung up on this-or get others hung up on them- at most shows with big classes. Not pretty. If you insist on doing what is not asked for, you better be darned quick about it and get out of the way.


If you're riding in an eq class at a level where at least some of you competitors can execute a TOH, you should be able to ride around the ring without getting hung up on anyone else.

[myvanya]

My .02- I saw the toh as the change of direction in Morgan breed shows for Eq and HUS all the time (granted that was a few years ago, that may not be the case anymore), and I could swear thats what my sister did for her paint shows too, even if the announcer didn't specifically call for it.

That being said, I think in the hunter jumper shows I do know they would look at you like you were green with purple spots (or wearing a green hunt coat, rust breeches, and brown boots :winkgrin:) if you used a toh for a change of direction unless it was called for in a work off, but then again to me it looks like most of the horses are completely on their forehands in the flat classes so I'm not sure if it would work anyway(just an observation of the few flat classes I have had time and inclination to watch; not a criticism of all riders or horses who do HUS classes in my area as I have by no means watched them all).

However,I wish it was different. I ride my jumper horse "dressage" regularly (by putting it in quotes I mean I work him in dressage style movements such as lateral work, collection, extension, toh, 20m circles, etc. in my jumping tack because I am too cheap to get 2 saddles and haven't found a dressage saddle I can borrow regularly) because I think it is the foundation of correct jumping. I Expect my jumper horse to be able to do toh, pivot on his hindquarters, turn on the forehand, leg yield, 10m volte, stretchy-chewies, free walk, simple changes on a straight line, bending line etc. and I am not sure that some of the mid-level hunter/jumper riders expect the same (just from the riding I have observed). I agree with the person who stated that the toh requires a level of understanding of the aids that is often just not there for some riders. (not to say I am an expert on this either- but I try- hopefully I can get points for that)

[rileyt]

Pure bullshit. A turn on the haunches executed perfectly is a standard for changing direction. You have been influenced by modern judges wanting to maintain a level of mediocrity because that change of direction forces a rider to understand forward and restraint aids and.... is really a difficult movement for most riders to perform adequately forget flawlessly. :eek: I would recommend that my rider take chances if given a non specific command in a flat class.
Because today's performance is based on ribbons awarded fewer riders attempt the more demanding challenges.... obviously announcers get miffed when a foolhearty exhibitor chooses to exhibit for better or worse their initiative to correctly change directions.
Half turn~~~ give me an ambitious 8 year old and a couple of months and she/he will execute that very well at the walk. :)


Frankly I agree with Wanderluster, If the judge uses "generic" language such as "all walk, and reverse direction" he/she should be prepared for riders to reverse in a multitude of ways. Taking off points for his/her own lack of clarity is tantamount to playing "hide the ball". If the judge wants to see only a half circle, he or she should so specify.

Truly, I hate this kind of insider B.S. Its just one more way hunters divide themselves... those with the "in" trainers know the dirty little secret (i.e., the only "correct" way to reverse is via a half circle), and those who might be very well trained riders who dare do a turn on the haunches will be penalized for not knowing the inside scoop. F-ing speak your mind people! If you're a judge, have the forethought and consideration to pick your words carefully. Playing games in the show ring is terrible form.

[kellyb]

If I did not ask for it and you did it, you wouldn't get any more points from me. But if you DO choose to do it, you better do it very well or I would probably ding for it.

[rabicon]

I've practiced turn on the haunches from a halt with my dressage trainer and done them properly without pivoting. Sure, you have to ride more with your seat to get the rhythm back, but it's definitely possible!

Most western people do turn on the haunches at a HALT! Esp. in trail classes where they have to turn on the haunches in a box (small box at that) if you walk forward at all you are out of the box. It is possible ;) and its done often in the western world. As english riders we believe that it should always have forward motion hence we do it thru walk etc... but it is done at the halt in other worlds. Oh, and my horse can do it very well at the halt :cool: Have you ever watched a reining horse spin?? The stop and stand for a min. and then spin which is a really fast toh pretty much and they do it from a halt and usually do it really well.

[myvanya]

Not to argue over semantics but If it is done from the halt I think it is then called a something else.

[meupatdoes]

Frankly I agree with Wanderluster, If the judge uses "generic" language such as "all walk, and reverse direction" he/she should be prepared for riders to reverse in a multitude of ways. Taking off points for his/her own lack of clarity is tantamount to playing "hide the ball". If the judge wants to see only a half circle, he or she should so specify.

Truly, I hate this kind of insider B.S. Its just one more way hunters divide themselves... those with the "in" trainers know the dirty little secret (i.e., the only "correct" way to reverse is via a half circle), and those who might be very well trained riders who dare do a turn on the haunches will be penalized for not knowing the inside scoop. F-ing speak your mind people! If you're a judge, have the forethought and consideration to pick your words carefully. Playing games in the show ring is terrible form.

I agree completely.

What are people talking about, "The judge didn't ask for it?"

The judge ASKED for a change of direction, but did not specify the means.

If someone executes a more stylish means, more power to them.
The judge got their change of direction.

That is like saying, "Well, the judge didn't ask you to take the more direct route by slicing that oxer instead of going around a big bendy track..."

The last time I checked, "psychic powers" were not an equitation requirement, so if the judge is going to get grumpy about something they should look first to how specific they were and whether or not they were clear. Which is also, oddly enough, a good horsemanship practice when dealing with a response you weren't expecting from a horse.

[mg]

Not to argue over semantics but If it is done from the halt I think it is then called a something else.

I've always called a TOH from the halt a turn on the haunches and one from the walk a walk pirouette...

[Come Shine]

The ones I hate are when they say just say "reverse". Some judges want you to change direction and stand there until they give a direction to walk. Other judges expect you to reverse and walk on. I never know what to do. I hate being the one standing there while everyone else is merrily going on their way.

[BAC]

I beg to disagree about it properly being executed from the halt - just not possible. You have to keep the walk rhythm in a turn on the haunches. If you try it from the halt, you will be pivoting on the hind legs, not picking them up in the walk rhythm and placing them back down in the same or very similar spot.

I was taught, and have read it in more than one book, that a correct turn on the haunches should be a continuous movement, there is no halt, unlike for example a turn on the forehand.

[findeight]

If you're riding in an eq class at a level where at least some of you competitors can execute a TOH, you should be able to ride around the ring without getting hung up on anyone else.

Theoretically, yeah, sure. But I was not talking AA level USEF Medal riders here...although I have TWICE seen a TOH result in a road block in Maclay Regional flat phases with 30+ , both times one single rider slow trying a TOH and the others around them maybe not watching as they completed a simple half turn reverse when that was basically all that was asked for.

In the real world, especially affiliate recognized but non major USEF rated shows where you get biggish classes with a cross section of ability, you cannot assume presicion moves. Plus the command "Reverse and Continue to Walk" immediately follows a walk from the canter command. Anybody that does try a TOH has got to do it from the walk or it's a break in gait.

And it's not bullshit-I SEE this frequently when somebody tries to do something different that is not that good at it and/or is too slow getting it done. I didn't theorize, just relate what I see.

When the rider perform individually in a work off, test or even their initial course they may show off as they please. In a crowded flat class...not such a good idea. Oh, it may attract the judges attention all right, quite possibly for the wrong reasons.

I saw more try a TOH when I lived out west and just about any kid in a backyard could get one accomplished-no doubt due to the Western influence on local show Horsemanship type patterns in both Western and English where the TOH and rein back are pretty basic.

Here out East, they are not so standard and basic.

But there is no conspiracy or secret about doing exactly what you are told to do and saving the showing off for when you are out there alone doing your course whan much is left for you to decide how to best present yourself.

Lets not forget the original question was about the flat phase of a Medal class where all will work individually and have plenty of opportunity to get fancy and try to win it.

[dags]

Ouch, this was a surprise. I'm *pretty* sure I used this in the 90s to set myself apart, as others have said. And they were beautiful- one fluid motion- walking, inside hind steps forward, half-halt, apply outside aids and open inside hand, and voila! We were headed the other direction before anyone else in the arena. Every time. Pretty sure I won enough of those to validate their use at the time.

Of course, I'm also of the camp that the trot in any eq class o/f should be sat . . .

[MHM]

The ones I hate are when they say just say "reverse". Some judges want you to change direction and stand there until they give a direction to walk. Other judges expect you to reverse and walk on. I never know what to do. I hate being the one standing there while everyone else is merrily going on their way.

If the only instruction is "reverse," then you continue what you were doing when you got the instruction. So if you were walking, you would continue to walk, at least in front of any decent USEF judge.

All those who are so quick to slam the judge- why don't you go to the trouble to get a USEF judge's card so you can show the world how it's supposed to be done?

[mvp]

The "don't do extra and show off" is a result of the anti-intellectualism brought to us by the Bush Dynasty. Think about it and see if you agree, and then wish to rebel (or not).

I don't see any reason to especially nail the TOH person simply because they tried to do the tougher version of an unspecified reverse in direction.

Otherwise I agree with what others well-versed in dressage philosophy have said. It comes from forward. The rhythm of the walk should not change. I think the spins reiners want are based on a very different idea. They *want* to see the inside hind leg planted.

I also don't see why the TOH done right takes up extra space or time that causes a traffic jam.

The one reason to do it is to rebalance your horse or re-engage his sleepy mind if you think a walk-to-canter transition is coming up PDQ. So equitate not with an eye to how you look or how correctly you can do the TOH, but what the movement is functionally for. Use it as necessary.

Whether the TOH or the prompt, balance canter transition was the cause, I have won classes doing this. Truly, I don't think judges have time to watch last rider among 15 or 20 reverse at the walk. If you cause a scene, you will get noticed. If you are the last one walking when asked for the canter, you'll stand out, too.

Or maybe I'm just stuck in an earlier era.

[findeight]

Just for the record...I don't know any judges that actually will take off for this-if it's done right. Just a minus if you screw it up. But they won't give you any extra points for it either, unless they specifically requested it (which they do not when there are alot of riders in the ring).

Routinely asked for with reduced numbers in a work off or test.

Err...I started the Hunter stuff during the early Clinton administration and was taught the same by all 4 trainers I've worked with in 3 different states.

[Come Shine]

If the only instruction is "reverse," then you continue what you were doing when you got the instruction. So if you were walking, you would continue to walk, at least in front of any decent USEF judge?

That's what I always thought, but some judges feel otherwise. I can't speak to their decency. ;)

[rabicon]

I've always called a TOH from the halt a turn on the haunches and one from the walk a walk pirouette...

Its called a toh or a rollback is from the trot walk or canter in a western horse, or a walk or canter pirouette in a dressage horse in hunters its a toh.

[MHM]

Err...I started the Hunter stuff during the early Clinton administration and was taught the same by all 4 trainers I've worked with in 3 different states.

One judge I know who disapproves of the unrequested turn on the haunch has been judging since (at least!) the Nixon era, so I really doubt this can be blamed on Bush- either one. :lol:

[dags]

Just for the record...I don't know any judges that actually will take off for this-if it's done right. Just a minus if you screw it up. But they won't give you any extra points for it either, unless they specifically requested it (which they do not when there are alot of riders in the ring).


Numerically this is likely correct. But all things being equal it may be (done properly of course!) the edge that differentiates 1st & 2nd. Like the kid that canters from in-gate to first fence in work-off, even if it is not specified, instead of the one that circles to get their pace?

Maybe this is what we are all trying to say? But some of us approach the matter with the variable that the TOH is done properly, while others assume it is done incorrectly?

[Seven-up]

Does anyone remember this situation a little more clearly than me--

The Maclay final where Goutal won. The test included canter to either a simple change or a downward transition (don't remember what it was exactly) and then canter off on opposite lead. Everyone else did canter-trot-canter, and she did canter-walk-canter. Seems like I remember one of the judges (maybe GM) saying that was a smart move, separating herself from the rest of the pack. There may or may not have been some mention that what she did was ok because the test did not specify exactly what to do, and left a little room for interpretation.

Back in the day I used to do some things slightly different than everyone else in an effort to stand out and many times it worked. Not saying it's the right thing to do ;) but I did it.

[findeight]

Just because I found this interesting...

IIRC the horse doing a TOH in an H/J Eq setting advances one hoofprint per step. If they do not it is a pivot and a deduction.

Remember seeing one National Medal Finals work off (Maclay IIRC) when the final riders had to jump into a vertical to oxer 3 stride line and halt after the vertical. TOH. Trot back out over vertical. Winner nailed it but one got dragged thru the halt to the base of the oxer and ended up 3rd while and the other was penalized for not advancing enough in the TOH and placed second. Whoever was the commentator spotted that off the bat and called it correctly...which was something I actually did not know.

[MHM]

Seven-up-

I was there for that Maclay final. I don't remember the part about the transition, but Brianne Goutal nailed that test with her jumps, for sure. The transition would have just been icing on the cake at that point.

[Seven-up]

Hmmm, maybe it wasn't the final.

But I do remember seeing her do it differently than everyone else, and thinking to myself she had eff-ed up because I thought they specified how to do it, and I was wrong.

[rabicon]

I was taught, and have read it in more than one book, that a correct turn on the haunches should be a continuous movement, there is no halt, unlike for example a turn on the forehand.

Have you ever watched a top notch reining or trail class? If not you need to watch one. Those horses do not move forward and they toh from the halt and they are on the haunches not the forehand. A proper spin in reining should be from a compete stop and the horse will pivot around his one back leg while not having any forward or backwards movement, then they stop in the spot they started in stand for a few seconds pet their horse and then go the other direction. There is no forward. Its just different dis. western is another world from english in alot of aspects. You go on a western board and tell them that you can't do a toh from the halt and the will laugh you off the board. Its possible, it can be done, but its done differently in different ways of riding. Set up a box of poles end to end and ask your horse to toh from the walk. You will be out of that box real quick like and will be over the poles doing a toh.

Heres a video of a bunch of them for ya, some are better than others but its an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euGG7sgjTM4&feature=related

[dags]

Remember seeing one National Medal Finals work off (Maclay IIRC) when the final riders had to jump into a vertical to oxer 3 stride line and halt after the vertical. TOH. Trot back out over vertical.

See, this would have confused me as the whole "you must be walking to do a TOH" theory was beaten into me . . . and with it the theory it should never be called for from the halt.

In this test that walk step to do a correct TOH could technically be penalized, as it wasn't not called for. Just as "From line-up, canter fence #6" could get dinged for trot steps going into canter. hmmmm.

Aside from that, that's just a brutal test :D

[dags]

Have you ever watched a top notch reining or trail class? If not you need to watch one. Those horses do not move forward and they toh from the halt and they are on the haunches not the forehand. A proper spin in reining should be from a compete stop and the horse will pivot around his one back leg while not having any forward or backwards movement, then they stop in the spot they started in stand for a few seconds pet their horse and then go the other direction. There is no forward. Its just different dis. western is another world from english in alot of aspects. You go on a western board and tell them that you can't do a toh from the halt and the will laugh you off the board. Its possible, it can be done, but its done differently in different ways of riding. Set up a box of poles end to end and ask your horse to toh from the walk. You will be out of that box real quick like and will be over the poles doing a toh.

Heres a video of a bunch of them for ya, some are better than others but its an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euGG7sgjTM4&feature=related

But I wouldn't go on a western board and claim to know, well, anything I guess. But here, in HJ land (and Dressage), TOH is done from the walk, and is incorrect when forward motion ceases.

We also don't call it a "spin", so I'm thinking technically these are two different movements.

[joiedevie99]

Have you ever watched a top notch reining or trail class? If not you need to watch one. Those horses do not move forward and they toh from the halt and they are on the haunches not the forehand. A proper spin in reining should be from a compete stop and the horse will pivot around his one back leg while not having any forward or backwards movement, then they stop in the spot they started in stand for a few seconds pet their horse and then go the other direction. There is no forward. Its just different dis. western is another world from english in alot of aspects. You go on a western board and tell them that you can't do a toh from the halt and the will laugh you off the board. Its possible, it can be done, but its done differently in different ways of riding. Set up a box of poles end to end and ask your horse to toh from the walk. You will be out of that box real quick like and will be over the poles doing a toh.

Heres a video of a bunch of them for ya, some are better than others but its an example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euGG7sgjTM4&feature=related

Yes- I agree. The western horse is pivoting around one leg- not doing an english turn on the haunches which keeps the walk rhythm. It may be the same word, but its not the same movement.

[rabicon]

Yep, I'm not trying to argue btw. Just trying to explain that in the western world a toh is from the halt. :) I've shown (just playing around) in some western eq classes and in the pattern they will call for a halt toh and lope off etc... Considering my horse doesn't lope :lol: we never did to well but it was fun shows. Anyways these comments were to help others that didn't understand that a toh can be done from a halt ;) Yes, a spin is a little extreme as a form of toh but it shows that a horse can pivot around that back leg and shift his wt. back from the halt.

On the orginal subject I've always been taught that if you can do it right do what you can to stand out. ;)

[rabicon]

Dags your correct. I said in a previous post that in the english world that it is done from forward motion. That is how it is taught and how we perform it, I was just explaining that it can be done in the halt (I thought you were another poster that said it can't be done from the halt, my bad sorry ;)) and trying to help explain and show that its not impossible. We just don't do it in the english world :winkgrin: Sorry for the confusion.

[dags]

On the orginal subject I've always been taught that if you can do it right do what you can to stand out. ;)

No prob rabs, and I was taught this too :)

[findeight]

See, this would have confused me as the whole "you must be walking to do a TOH" theory was beaten into me . . . and with it the theory it should never be called for from the halt.

Aside from that, that's just a brutal test :D

Well, if you accept the one hoofprint forward per step, it IS a walk and calling for a TOH means you will go forward that hoofprint per step so there was an implied "walk" included with the instuction to TOH. The #2 rider did a Western spin, basically-inside hind up and forward then plant and pivot.

And you bet it was brutal as that was a very forward line in the first round-as in jump in with your hair on fire-and that was one big sucker of an oxer. That halt required some mastery and pre planning.

And, again, if you are out there alone or in the final sift of a class with just a few, you do what you can to look the best you can. Sometimes a crowded flat class is not going to get you anywhere if you try to fancy it up when not specifically asked for.

[meupatdoes]

Well, if you accept the one hoofprint forward per step, it IS a walk and calling for a TOH means you will go forward that hoofprint per step so there was an implied "walk" included with the instuction to TOH. The #2 rider did a Western spin, basically-inside hind up and forward then plant and pivot.

And you bet it was brutal as that was a very forward line in the first round-as in jump in with your hair on fire-and that was one big sucker of an oxer. That halt required some mastery and pre planning.

And, again, if you are out there alone or in the final sift of a class with just a few, you do what you can to look the best you can. Sometimes a crowded flat class is not going to get you anywhere if you try to fancy it up when not specifically asked for.

It was always my understanding that the horse takes a step but, in an ideal world, puts his foot back down right where it was.

A spin is when the foot stays in place and spins around.

[FarnleyGarnet]

Well, if you accept the one hoofprint forward per step, it IS a walk and calling for a TOH means you will go forward that hoofprint per step so there was an implied "walk" included with the instuction to TOH. The #2 rider did a Western spin, basically-inside hind up and forward then plant and pivot.

findeight is correct. The step forward initiates the turn on the haunches. In this test the judge was most likely looking for riders show that they truly understood the test and HAD to step forward to execute the turn on the haunches correctly. These riders also had to move into the trot immediately after executing the turn on the haunches. Not an easy test at all. :)

It doesn't matter how many western horses do it from the halt. In equitation classes the horse MUST walk to execute a turn on the haunches. A horse MUST halt to execute the turn on the forehand.

Now the judge in the final that findeight described could have been just as crafty by ordering the riders to canter the vertical, reverse showing a turn on the forehand, and trot back over the vertical. The riders would have to know that the halt after cantering in is implied because it's required to execute a turn on the forehand. The riders would then have to remain halted for a moment after reversing. Only then could they pick up the trot. Sure the judge didn't specifically say "halt" but it's required in this situation. Sometimes you have to have done your homework to play Simon Says correctly.

[FarnleyGarnet]

It was always my understanding that the horse takes a step but, in an ideal world, puts his foot back down right where it was. A spin is when the foot stays in place and spins around.

I was taught the same thing. Ideally the horse's hind legs march in place for the turn on the haunches while the body pivots around. The hind legs should never remain planted. Very different from those spins in western (reining?). For a turn on the forehand the front legs remain planted on the ground. The horse's front legs will actually twist when executed properly. Riders should be penalized if the horse picks up its front feet.

[findeight]

This is probably the best reason of all not to do something that is not specifically asked for, epecially in a big group on the flat.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF "CORRECT". This TOH discussion should show that.

What is actually "correct" may not be the theory in practice under that particular judge or an individual trainer may not teach it the "correct" way. So it could backfire on you. For all we know that 2nd place rider who executed a nice, tight spin was taught that way when asked for a TOH.

Yet again, what you chose to do in a test situation or while jumping your course all by yourself is different then performing in a crowded flat class when you simply have to turn around and go the other way amid other of varying talent and ability.

And, if you do not know all 19 tests, get out the rulebook. Do not depend strictly on a trainer to teach you, you need to know.

Oh, and yeah, that is Reining where it's plant and pivot-the foot will reposition itself almost in it's own print-and, BTW, that's a trot maneuver. Years back it was out of a canter but that gave you what looked like "strides" as the horse went around. Nowadays it's one smooth move and, technically, out of a trot. Trail, it does not matter as long as you don't hit whatever you are maneuvering around or inside of-if you got the back feet in a tractor tire and are doing a 360, long as you don't nudge it or step out, does not matter if it's a (real slow) pivot or they take a couple of half steps to reposition the foot.

[SEPowell]

On a lighter note:

In my first flat class of my first show I backed my pony when the judge called for a change of direction/reverse.

:yes: :lol:

That's very funny :lol:

[Janet]

Responding to the judges directions is like Simon Says. If everybody was asked to walk...and then halt....and then asked to reverse, then the only option is to do a turn on the haunches or turn on the forehand. BUT, if that judge directed the class to walk...and then just said reverse, there would be absolutely NO reason to halt, do a turn on the haunches and then proceed to walk forward. Simon Says!
Turn on the HAUNCHES from a halt would be INCORRECT.
Turn on the haunches MUST be done from a walk.
See test 18.

Turn on the FOREHAND can be done either from a walk or a halt.
See test 12.

[Janet]

I've always called a TOH from the halt a turn on the haunches and one from the walk a walk pirouette...
The difference between a turn on the haunches and a pirouette is that in a turn on the haunches teh hind hoofprints define a very small circle, but in a pirouette the inside hind puts repeated hoofprints in the same spot.

[rabicon]

Guys I understand (if you read the post I wrote) that toh in english is a forward movement unlike western. I was trying to explain to one person on this board (that I got confused and though was someone else, hence so many comments about it :lol:) that it can be done from a halt thats all. If you did that in an eq class it should be considered wrong. Sorry if I confused some people about what I was trying to explain. I'm a very confusing person the last few days :cool:

[M. O'Connor]

My trainer is an 'R' judge and marks down for something like that; if she did not ask for it, she does not wish to see it.

Edited to add: It's sort of like if the judge asked for a posting trot and one exhibitor did an extended trot to show off. Not necessary and not asked for.

I think you have offered an example of apples and oranges--a "posting trot" more than implies an "ordinary" posting trot, and in classes where extensions are also asked for, each type of trot is explicitly requested by the judge via the announcer.

But when there is only a general direction given, I think it's fair to assume that performing whatever is asked for in a more advanced way would possibly (all things being equal, which is nearly never the case) enable a rider to stand out, and perhaps move up--for instance, making an inside turn rather than going the long way around on an equitation course...

The example given of the reverse at a walk is actually a good one though. When I was a junior, nearly no one used a mere half turn to change directions if one were riding in novice or better.

[I must digress to explain that there still exists in the rulebook a graded merit system of equitation classes that, in ascending order of difficulty are called "maiden, novice, limit, intermediate, and open." Competitors were expected to display an increased level of skill as they advanced through it. Though it is seldom used in some areas of the country any more, the definitions might be helpful reading for those who are curious enough to look them over.]

We were all told to use a turn on the forehand, or a turn on the haunches. Perhaps many were botched--but the greater point was that many were not, and these were exercises that we all took for granted, and were expected to use them.

That is how things were until someone in the judge's booth, I'm not sure who, decided to make their influence felt by discouraging this practice.

If you ask me, there is more than a slight possibility that being in the seat of power, or out in the sun too long, or maybe lack of nourishment, or not being able to up and leave to answer nature's call can at times interfere with the rational thinking of an otherwise knowledgeable judge from time to time. Some are known to be rather quirky, and some are downright cranky.

Penalizing someone for something 'just because you can' doesn't strike me as good sportsmanship, nor does discouraging riders from displaying advanced skills in the process of performing an otherwise unremarkable exercise seem to serve any purpose, other than perhaps to suppress demonstrations of excellence.

Other judges are, of course, free to decide otherwise, but that's where I stand on the issue until and unless someone feels like inserting another rule into the book...

(I can see it now:

EQ10004999 Appendix to class conduct:

1. In the absence of specific instructions from the judge, riders are to assume that the simplest form of any exercise requested is the only one permissible.

2. Judges must ensure that a penalty is assigned in any instance in which a violation of this rule occurs.)

Sounds a bit worse when you lay it all out like that, doesn't it?

Now you know why I'm not on ANY committees!

[M. O'Connor]

You do a turn on the haunches FROM the walk..no halt...so technically, you ARE following the judges direction. :winkgrin: Just like you could choose to do a half turn in reverse, a half turn, cut across the diagonal, etc.

I think the turn on the haunches was to Reverse in an Eq class as the Sitting trot was to the opening circle in Eq. It was a fad to show that you could do something well. But a lot of people couldn't do it well and judges got tired of seeing it done poorly.

If I could do a TOH well, I might do it. If the judges doesn't like it, so be it. But I would only attempt it if I thought I could do it realy well.

Yes, the TOH is correctly performed at a walk.

Extra credit for RugBug!

[Midge]

It takes almost no thought at all to see how the TOH came to be frowned upon when not specificially requested.

Class is asked to reverse and SusieQ botches her TOH. Trainer goes to judge to find out why SusieQ didn't win. "Because she botched the TOH.' 'But you didn't ask for one. She was just reversing efficiently, not doing a TOH.'

[Renn/aissance]

I think what I'm going to do is take down the names of the judges who have weighed in here, or who have been mentioned, and write down a list of who minds the turn on the haunch and who doesn't. :lol: Clearly this is an excellent demonstration of Findeight's signature line in action.

My only commentary on this is a) that I have been using the turn on the haunches to reverse in medal work-offs for years; b) never been corrected by trainers (in fact no one has mentioned it to me until now); and c) am fairly sure that that move was partially responsible for having moved up on the flat in several classes. Judges' names now duly noted. ;)

Please keep your takes on this coming--it's very educational!

[M. O'Connor]

Thanks to all for all of your responses. :) This came up in a clinic with a BNT today. He was talking about making yourself seen and attracting the judge's eye in the flat phase, so when he called us to "walk; reverse and walk" I reversed turn on the haunches from the walk. He said that because he had not asked for that I was not getting any points from it and that I should have just turned around. I was coming sort of from where RugBug was; I seem to remember either watching people do it to reverse or hearing about people doing it, so I've done it in flat phases to reverse before. This is the first time I've heard feedback on it. I'm glad to hear everyone's different points of view--it's educational! :)

That's incrediby interesting--he and I had the same trainer for awhile, back in his LI days. TOH was definitely the way to go, back then. As I mentioned, someone simply 'decided' that it shouldn't be done, and all the lemmings followed suit. Guess they reached the left coast!

[M. O'Connor]

Pure bullshit. A turn on the haunches executed perfectly is a standard for changing direction. You have been influenced by modern judges wanting to maintain a level of mediocrity because that change of direction forces a rider to understand forward and restraint aids and.... is really a difficult movement for most riders to perform adequately forget flawlessly. :eek: I would recommend that my rider take chances if given a non specific command in a flat class.
Because today's performance is based on ribbons awarded fewer riders attempt the more demanding challenges.... obviously announcers get miffed when a foolhearty exhibitor chooses to exhibit for better or worse their initiative to correctly change directions.
Half turn~~~ give me an ambitious 8 year old and a couple of months and she/he will execute that very well at the walk. :)

And Wanderluster gets the tricolor!

[Gry2Yng]

Just have to comment b/c it is something that frustrates me. In dressage land, a simple change is ALWAYS done thru the walk. When a dressage instructor (who knows better - the term is used incorrectly in dressage land, often) or a dressage test asks for a simple change, doing the change thru the trot is an error. If the instructor/test wants a change thru the trot it will specify "change of lead thru the trot".

It has been my experience that in h/j land anything that is not a flying change is a simple change. As I like my h/j friends and instructors very much, I have never endeavored to point out this subtle difference. Probably doesn't really matter as long as you are speaking in the land from which you come.

FWIW, all three ways of changing lead are defined specifically in the Dressage Rule Book. According to the dressage rule book, a TOH can be executed from either the walk or the halt. It is a schooling movement and never asked for in a test. In the pirouette, the hoof returns to the same spot after the leaving the ground in the sequence and rhythm of the gait.

These discussions are so interesting to me. Thanks. I feel like I learn a lot. Hope I am adding to your knowledge base as well.

[M. O'Connor]

Not the TOH, but another instance in which the judge did not specify how something should be done:

Fairfield Hunt Club, maybe 1978...

The Medal workoff ended with the judge requesting "a number" of lead changes across the diagonal or center line to the gate...

One of the riders did several simple changes.

A couple more did flying changes.

Elizabeth Sheehan, the winner, performed a series of absolutely flawless flying tempi changes on every stride.

I guess today, she'd be kicked out by some.

[Renn/aissance]

Where's the "jaw dropping" emoticon when you need one? Hats off to her!

It has been my experience that in h/j land anything that is not a flying change is a simple change.

I just looked through my textbooks (George Morris's books, The DeNemethy Method, and Anna Jane White-Mullin's Winning) to see what they had to say about the simple change. George Morris says that the simple change may be performed through the walk or slow trot depending on the horse's degree of collection. DeNemethy does not address the simple change. White-Mullin simply quotes the USEF rule book regarding Test 4:
Test 4. Figure eight at canter on correct lead, demonstrating simple change of lead. This is a change whereby the horse is brought back into a walk or trot and restarted into a canter on the opposite lead.

I wonder when the dressage and hunter/jumper perspectives shifted on the proper performance of a simple change, and why?

A point found in Winning regarding the turn on the haunches, which addresses a question earlier mentioned in the thread:
The pivotal foot... is not required to step in the same spot each time it leaves the ground, but may move slightly forward, so that it forms a small half-circle having a radius of no more than 9 inches.... The turn on the haunches is a preparatory movement for a modified pirouette.

So the hind legs are not required to make a small circle during the turn on the haunches, but must definitely display movement, rather than being a pivot.

In addition, according to USEF Test 18, a turn on the haunches is to be performed from the walk.

[Janet]

Just have to comment b/c it is something that frustrates me. In dressage land, a simple change is ALWAYS done thru the walk. When a dressage instructor (who knows better - the term is used incorrectly in dressage land, often) or a dressage test asks for a simple change, doing the change thru the trot is an error. If the instructor/test wants a change thru the trot it will specify "change of lead thru the trot".

It has been my experience that in h/j land anything that is not a flying change is a simple change. As I like my h/j friends and instructors very much, I have never endeavored to point out this subtle difference. Probably doesn't really matter as long as you are speaking in the land from which you come.

FWIW, all three ways of changing lead are defined specifically in the Dressage Rule Book. According to the dressage rule book, a TOH can be executed from either the walk or the halt. It is a schooling movement and never asked for in a test. In the pirouette, the hoof returns to the same spot after the leaving the ground in the sequence and rhythm of the gait.

These discussions are so interesting to me. Thanks. I feel like I learn a lot. Hope I am adding to your knowledge base as well.

For the Dressage definitions, use the Dressage chapter of the rule book.

For the Equitation definitions, use the Equitation chapter of the rule book.

The Equitation chapter defines simple change as EITHER through walk or trot
demonstrating simple change of lead. This is a
change whereby the horse is brought back into a walk or trot (either is acceptable unless
the judge specifies) and restarted into a canter on the opposite lead


as for this statement
According to the dressage rule book, a TOH can be executed from either the walk or the halt. It is a schooling movement and never asked for in a test. you might want to look at the Second Level tests.

[Gry2Yng]

I knew it would end up being in a test somewhere and someone would catch me out on that. Just quoting the rule book, Janet. Rule book for dressage says it is just a schooling movement. I knew it was in the Int dressage tests back in 2003, but didn't look at the dressage dressage tests. Tell them to fix the rule book.

DR 122

10. The Turn on the Haunches. This movement is a schooling exercise which can be exe-
cuted from a halt or walk and is preparatory for the pirouette which is executed out of a col-
lected gait. The horse’s forehand moves in even, quiet and regular steps around the horse’s
inner hind leg while maintaining the rhythm of the walk. In the half turn on the haunches the
horse is not required to step with its inside hind leg in the same spot each time it leaves the
ground but may move slightly forward. Backing or loss of rhythm are considered a serious
fault. This movement may be executed through 90 degrees, 180 degrees, or 360 degrees.

[pinkpolkadot491]

It also depends on the show. I was called back 2nd in a large medal class. When asked to reverse, I found myself smack infront of the judge knowing good and well that I could nail a TOH, so I did it. The rest of my testing was flawless. I pinned 7th. Upon exiting the ring one of my trainers noted that my flat work was beautiful and the TOH was superbly done. My other trainer, a USEF "R" Judge, noted that while my TOH was beautifully done, it wasn't the right horse show to be done at. It was one of those older, more hunter based shows (rated). I wouldn't have done it, had I not been right in front of the judge. Like others have said, I guess it depends on the preference of the judge.

[JustJump]

If you were truly 'right in front of the judge' there's a good chance your TOH was not seen.

Most judges are looking across the ring to the opposite quarter line and far side--the stuff that happens closer up just can't be focused on--try it sometime, and you'll see what I mean.

It would be pretty hard to judge a class that close up.

[Melzy]

When I give a command to the announcer, I want you to do just that simple command. If the announcer does not give my command clearly, I will politely scold the announcer. My exhibitors are never penalized for incorrect announcements. If I want a TOH, I will do that test individually. That way, I can see everyone.

[Wanderluster]

Just curious. Do you give the command as " At the walk change directions with a half turn" ? If the directions are specific then there would be no confusion. Otherwise a change of rein through the diagonal, a half turn in reverse, or a TOH, would all be correct interpretations of a command to change directions at the walk. :winkgrin:

[danosaur]

I always reverse with a turn on the haunches. And not to be cocky or anything, but I win a good amount of my flats. Also, turn on the haunches is a movement where impulsion must be present, so it cannot be done from the halt.
and in regards to watching things right in front of you, I was always taught never to stay on the rail directly in front of the judge because they can't see you. I ride on the quarter line instead of the rail on the judge's side.

[Wanderluster]

I think the most difficult part of the TOH is the cadence. It is that of a four beat walk, it is easy to have a foot plant and pivot. I don't wish to discuss the western interpretation, only the TOH as it is accepted in dressage/hunt seat equitation standards.

If a half turn is the explicit command then I suggest it not be implied.
I agree wholeheartedly with M O'Connor, graduating riders became more proficient and were tested according to their level.

At some point the objective of competition blurred thanks to judging fashion, trends and efficiency. It is rare to see riders worked off in flat classes at any show. Mediocrity is comfortable and makes the show run on time.

I cherish the tradition and miss judges that recognized, valued and rewarded excellence.
the end :lol: