Uncontroversial/Non-confrontational Conformation Critique

[Montanas_Girl]

I was disappointed that the "young colt" thread got so heated, because I was learning a lot from it. So, I thought I would offer a photograph of a less controversial horse. This is a filly, not a stallion prospect, and is not now and will probably never be for sale. I am not a breeder, and have no plans for breeding her until/if she proves herself under saddle.

I am very interested in learning more about evaulating young horse conformation, and we have many experienced breeders available to us here.

This is the best conformation photo I have of my girl:
http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/2009/?action=view&current=MarchPose.jpg

It was taken in March, so she was fuzzy, and she was still wet from her bath, but at least with the hair slicked down you can better see her bone structure. She was just a couple of weeks away from turning 2 at this time.

What I see: A pretty, kind head and eye attached to a resonable neck for a horse of her age. Decent shoulder but I'd prefer just a little more length/slope. A bit long in the back and weak in the coupling, butt high, and shorter in the hip than I'd prefer. You can't see it here, but her front cannons are significantly offset, although she does not toe out in the front to the degree that this photo suggests. She stands a bit camped out in the back and is straight through the hocks and is quite cow-hocked and therefore toes out behind.

She's not going to be an upper level dressage horse or jumper, but that's not what she's bred for, so that's not really any surprise!

What say our experts?

[TrueColours]

Impossible to evaluate based on that picture ... :)

You are shooting from the back end forward and it throws all of the angles and dimensions off. It makes her looks like her neck is VERY short, whereas in reality it may not be - its just the angle the picture was taken at

The braid also makes it impossible to evaluate that neck. Your eye is drawn to it and it makes the neck look top heavy and even shorter, so you'd need to take the picture from the other side so the mane doesnt take away from her appearance

Cant tell anything about her shoulder or top line or head with this angle either

Sorry! :)

[Mythology]

In addition two is a very hard age for evaluation, do you have a 3month approx pic?

[Iron Horse Farm]

okay, I'll bite.........I really really don't like to critique them at this age. I like the 3 weeks, 3 months, three years model and this grl would be much better evaluated at 3 years. That said, that striking face is a great starting place. I think that her neck is o a decent length and that it will fill out with time. Her shoulder is ok, but the pastern angle does not corespond and they seem very long. I can see tht she toes out behind, but given her hip angle, that may or may not change as she grows into her frame. She seems a bit potbellied to me and looks very "juvenile", certainly not a two year old that I would be starting.

I disagree that she is longbacked, I think that it may be an illusion given the poor camera angle and the growing butt.

She has a decent frame, but I would like to see a three month old picture and a photo from a better angle. The QH photo angle doesn't do much for a growing warmblood baby.. ;)

[Montanas_Girl]

Fair enough points. I was holding, and one of the barn teenagers was taking the picture. It was a moment of "We're at a horse show - and she's clean for a change! Take a picture quick!" :lol: I agree that the braid can be distracting - although I promise it is less distracting than her 2 ft long mane! This filly has hair genes like I have never seen!

I don't have any three month pictures (she was still with her breeder then), but here is one taken when she was two months old:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/Khali%202007/Khali_2Months_Profile.jpg

IronHorseFarm, you were posting as I was. Thanks for the compliment, but she is not a warmblood. She is a purebred Arabian, and her bloodlines in particular are known to be slow to mature. I agree that she looks exceptionally juvenile when compared to warmblood babies!

[stoicfish]

Good call on this post! Thanks for volunteering your filly.
BTW I am a sucker for sweet, bay filly's.

[Nes]

Yeah! Another brave soul (thank you). Your horse is also made of lines: http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/knitness/MarchPose.jpg

Well I'm not expert, and I'm not too good an adjusting conformation because of photo angles, but I'll give it a shot.

She's a little camped out behind (I think it's exaggerated in the photo, her back leg doesn't look as camped out). Her back-end actually sets her up to be sickle-hocked, and if she were standing properly we should see this.

I'm having a great deal of difficulty judging her front legs because of the photo angle.

Her heels are low, and thus her pastern angles aren`t matching her shoulder - her feet need some work. I`d really like to hear someone with more experience with feet chime in on that one.

She has a very pretty head, nice ears, good eye. I like her neck.

It looks like she has a long loin-coupling which makes for a weak back (her croup needs to be closer to the point-of-the-hip)

Finished my critique and then read what you wrote - looks like we agree :) She is pretty cute mind you. Except for her loin coupling I don`t see too much that is a big issue, she had a nice balance and should make a very nice riding horse. It would be interesting to see her again in a year or two.

Would not have guessed Arabian, but I see it now, I guess :D What strain is she?

[EqTrainer]

Re: the feet, I don't think it's a low heel issue. I think her foot is in front of her leg, period. How that will shake out in time I don't know, I don't trim enough babies to be sure of that.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Montanas_Girl;4188379]
I don't have any three month pictures (she was still with her breeder then), but here is one taken when she was two months old:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/Khali%202007/Khali_2Months_Profile.jpg

QUOTE]

that is much better and makes someone say "wow"

best

[Nes]

Eqtrainer, thanks I was looking again, you`re right it`s not her heels its her toes - OP I`d look into her feet asap don`t want the pretty girl to hurt herself :).

[Iron Horse Farm]

IronHorseFarm, you were posting as I was. Thanks for the compliment, but she is not a warmblood. She is a purebred Arabian, and her bloodlines in particular are known to be slow to mature. I agree that she looks exceptionally juvenile when compared to warmblood babies!

I realy really like the baby picture. She looks balanced and harmonious. If she grows into that you'll be very very pleased with what you get. :)

My first horse ever was an Arab mare marked very very similarly, her loin connection could have used some work too so it may just be the breed and it is not at all uncommon for Arabians to be toed out in the rear (and they proably aren't going to grow out of it like a WB would as they "widen" ;)).

I would wager a bet that as a three year old she is going to have a very very striking front end with a pretty head/neck/shoulder combination!

[Montanas_Girl]

Wow, Nes, thank you! May I "steal" a copy of that photograph with the lines on it? That could be very useful in the future!

I will take a closer look at her feet the next time I see her. We are about 200 miles apart right now, but that will change in a couple of months. In the interest of allowing her to be a baby in a big field with friends, she's suffered a bit of benign neglect since she was a weanling. It is entirely possible that we've not paid as close attention to her hooves as we should have. I don't think I have any better photos of her feet and legs, but I'll look around on my computer to make sure.

She is kind of a mix of CMK, Polish, and Russian lines. Very American/Domestic. She is by Khartoon Khlassic (Khemosabi x Barbary granddaughter) and out of a *Padron/Bey Shah granddaughter.

[Montanas_Girl]

Thanks, Tamara and IronHorseFarm! I bought Khali when she was two weeks old. She was quite a stunner as a baby! I keep waiting for her to grow back into that horse. She has definitely had some *interesting* growth phases along the way. Patience, patience I know.

Yes, the loin connection issue is not at all a surprise, given her breed. Personally, I'm most concerned about the offset cannons as far as her future use is concerned. Any thoughts on that?

[Waterwitch]

Yeah! Another brave soul (thank you). Your horse is also made of lines: http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/knitness/MarchPose.jpg


Hi Nes, thanks for providing this visual but if I might offer some constructive criticism.

I'm afraid the line of the femur is marked incorrectly in this photo. The femur originates at the hip joint which is much further forward on the pelvis. The femur terminates at the stifle joint which is further distal than you have marked it on the photo. You have the line of the femur starting out behind the hip joint and ending at the patella. The actual stifle joint is lower than that. Also, the line of the pelvis is incorrect. You have marked it much lower and more angular than it actually is.

I agree with EqTrainer about the feet. This filly is made with her feet in front of the line of her base of support. Her hoof angles look like they pretty much match her pastern angles though.

[Montanas_Girl]

Okay, I've found a photograph of her front legs that I took for her PtHA registration application. The angle is not great, but I think you can see what I'm talking about here. I really wish you could see her whole leg, all the way down to her hooves, but this is the best I can do for the moment.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/Khali%202007/Nov5.jpg

[Nes]

I was guessing domestic, she's got that bulkier but pretty look to her :).

Go ahead & take - just goofing around in photoshop. I find it helps to keep my mind on track and going through the conformation one point at a time when I do that - otherwise I end up critiqueing a little bit of everything & confusing myself :D.

A new picture of her from the front end (I understand that's difficult if she's far away) would be best. From this photo it looks like her degree of turn is fairly consistent down her leg so shouldn't cause to much of an issue. I think she's just bench kneed, and again good farrier work should help combat the issues this will cause (really you're putting too much strain on the inside of the leg, like you walking on the sides of your feet).

[BookendFarm]

This is so good for me to practice looking at conformation. Could you do mine, too?

This is a pic of our soon-to-be-gelded colt at 3 weeks. He was a little butt high at the time, but that just goes back and forth. He is now two months, but it is so hard to get a good conformation shot of the little boogers!

Bred to be an Eventer (probably never higher than Prelim, unless I get a lot more nerve or someone buys him). We are still considering breeding back to the stud (Connemara stallion ArdCeltic Art). Out of a nice, hunter type TB mare.

http://bookendfarm.com/RockyConf3weeks1.jpg

[Nes]

Tx WW - you're right, I wasn't intending the lines to match the length of the bones, but you're very right I'm incorrect on the pelvis angle, I'll try to re-draw :)

[EqTrainer]

Offset cannons don't worry me too much unless her intended job is jumping. Toeing out as a result is a bit concerning but most babies turn out and as their chests spread they turn in and correct. So you don't want to necessarily try to "fix" that but just trim using her live sole plane as a guide and let things shake out as they will.

I don't think she necessarily looks as if her feet have been neglected.... I think that might be her conformation but again, I'm not sure as I just don't trim *that* many babies to have watched a bunch who are built that way at two grow up.

[selah]

While I appreciate the evaluation of angles by spotting the lines, this is not a straight-on side shot, and so I would question the validity of the geometry no matter where one spots the points.

Her foot does seem to be a bit in front of her, but she is rather large footed for an arabian (good thing for sport), and I wonder what that will look like when all the parts are grown. As others have said, this is not a good age to be picking apart her conformation.

It is fun to note that many of the lines in her pedigree were used to cross on Welsh and Halflingers to create the modern German (also Danish, etc.) Riding Ponies.

[Waterwitch]

Tx WW - you're right, I wasn't intending the lines to match the length of the bones, but you're very right I'm incorrect on the pelvis angle, I'll try to re-draw :)


Understood :)

Just wanted to make sure you are aware that the hip joint isn't that far back on the pelvis and that the stifle is lower. I think a lot of people get confused about the location of these two joints and when you visualize it incorrectly it does more than distort your impression of the apparent length of the femur - it significantly affects your impression of the angle of the femur as well.

[Waterwitch]

While I appreciate the evaluation of angles by spotting the lines, this is not a straight-on side shot, and so I would question the validity of the geometry no matter where one spots the points.


Agreed 100%. But the anatomical points in the photograph can still be correctly marked :)

[Montanas_Girl]

EqTrainer, her intended job is Western or Hunter Pleasure at breed shows. If she jumps, it will be hunters up to 2'6" - I have no interest in going any higher anymore, and she's probably going to end up being a large pony (luckily I'm 5'1"). We're still waiting for her to "tell" us what she wants to be when she grows up. I have no experience with offset cannons, so it's good to hear that they probably won't be an issue.

I finally found a picture that shows her front legs, but it is a pretty terrible one. The lighting is bad, and she is standing very oddly as I try to set her up. But at least you can see her whole leg, and she's standing straight on one of them! Lol. I will be glad when she and I are finally in the same state again!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/2009/MarchHunter.jpg

[JB]

A line that was missed in the "lined up" pic is from the point of the shoulder to the point of the elbow :) the wither-shoulder-elbow correlation is one to look at both in terms of angles relative to each other, and of length relative to each other.

I LOVE the 2mo pic of the OP filly! She looks very well proportioned there, and that likely means she'll grow up well-proportioned.

Even though the OP pic was taken from behind her, elongating her shoulder angle, I think it's still actually very nicely sloped.

The hoof thing will be interesting to watch as she grows up. She's definitely one you'll HAVE to make sure is trimmed with short toes. Not "omg short", but they cannot be allowed to run forward. She may mature to a point where she comes "over" her front end more - just a guess as I don't have that type of experience either.

[Montanas_Girl]

It is fun to note that many of the lines in her pedigree were used to cross on Welsh and Halflingers to create the modern German (also Danish, etc.) Riding Ponies.

Don't think that I haven't wondered what kind of hunter pony babies she might make if crossed with the right Welsh stallion! I think we have a few years before I even begin to seriously consider that, though!

[Montanas_Girl]

Thanks, JB! I'll be sure to keep everyone updated on how her feet and legs change (or not) as she grows up. Perhaps that will be educational for us all!


Just a fun note: This is a COTH first for me. I've never before posted a topic that was growing so fast I couldn't keep up with the replies! :winkgrin:

[JB]

Thanks, JB! I'll be sure to keep everyone updated on how her feet and legs change (or not) as she grows up. Perhaps that will be educational for us all!
That would be SO awesome!! I don't know whether you should keep updating this thread (which would be great), or if it would be easier to make a new one every 6 months or so. Taking a good confo shot and just lining them all up, adding the new ones each time all on one page, would be so helpful. I'm really, really interested in seeing what her feet do. My boarder's horse has a foot out in front of him and I've always wondered what his baby feet looked like.

Just a fun note: This is a COTH first for me. I've never before posted a topic that was growing so fast I couldn't keep up with the replies! :winkgrin:
:D

[BookendFarm]

A line that was missed in the "lined up" pic is from the point of the shoulder to the point of the elbow :) the wither-shoulder-elbow correlation is one to look at both in terms of angles relative to each other, and of length relative to each other.

Is there any correlation to the angles of the wither-shoulder-elbow to the angles in the hip-point of butt-stifle triangle in the back? What would that tell you?

[Nes]

I believe I've got my angles a little better now, we'll see :)

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/knitness/MarchPose-1.jpg

I included the POS to E because JB is right, it should be in there for comparison.

All angles in your horse should, ideally, match up. However on the front end you want to look at a steep shoulder angle (depending on discipline) and use you the POS to Elbow as a comparison. It's on the back end that you're looking for an equilateral triangle POCroup - POButtock - Groin

(Rocky's owner, start a new thread - he is a perfect comparison to this mare!)

[BookendFarm]

Thanks, Nes! I started another thread. :)

[Waterwitch]

What's interesting is that the triangle of the hindquarters may be different for different disciplines.

I've read that successful dressage horses tend to have what would be conisdered an acute isosceles triangle: ie. shorter pelvis, but longer line from point of buttock to stifle, and from the stifle to the point of the hip, while successful jumpers tend to have closer to an equilateral triangle between these points.

[Montanas_Girl]

That is really interesting, Waterwitch.

[JB]

What's interesting is that the triangle of the hindquarters may be different for different disciplines.

I've read that successful dressage horses tend to have what would be conisdered an acute isosceles triangle: ie. shorter pelvis, but longer line from point of buttock to stifle, and from the stifle to the point of the hip, while successful jumpers tend to have closer to an equilateral triangle between these points.

Yep, because there's a physical difference between squatting and supporting behind and propelling forward, and squatting and propelling upward - comes down to physics and levers and whatnot. That's not to say the Dressage-built horse can't be a great Jumper, and vice-versa, but you know what I mean :)

[JB]

I may put my Dad (PhD Physics) to the test this weekend. I'll ask him to design 2 triangles. One to support and hold and thrust forward, and one to support and thrust upward, and see what he comes up with :D:cool: