My boy was in PH confo clinic! [Archive]

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turningpointequine

Jun. 24, 2009, 09:49 PM

My horse was in the July issue of Practical Horsemans conformation clinic. He got a good review but she said she thought he was ewe necked. This is the picture I sent in

http://img81.imageshack.us/i/elbaderconformationphot.jpg/

I was wondering if his neck was not built up properly due to just conformation or am I maybe a contributer to that? When I ride him I do let him nose poke a lot (bad, I know) and when we jump he gets head high (definite jumper, not so much hunter). I was just curious as his neck was not one of his faults that I thought would be mentioned. Barn blindness . . . (big sigh) LOL

lb2005

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:18 PM

I saw your stallion in PH today as I was perusing that issue. Hey, I placed the imaginary class the same way as Julie did. The Conformation Clinic column has always been one of my favorite features of that particular periodical, and I really missed it when it didn't run for a while. I am so happy to see it's back.

I am interested to see what others say about your specific question. I have an opinion, but I am not a conformation expert. Enthusiast, yes; expert, no.

And this is off the point, but for those that enjoy Dr. Deb Bennett's conformation analyses, she is going to begin again in EQUUS (she's done at least two series of conformation articles over the decades). And she's accepting photographic submissions. See this month's issue for submission guidelines.

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:39 PM

Who did the critique? He does not have a ewe neck.

I don't know him or his breeding, but he has a typical TB dip in front of the wither. That does not equate to a ewe neck, which is where the whole neck - top and bottom - it set on too low.

Your boy would lose much of that dip with the proper muscling.

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:40 PM

Ok, checked out your site, your stallion, and see he's a full TB - not surprising with the wither dip :D

showjumpers66

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:42 PM

It may just be the picture, but he is a really cute type and his neck distracts from that a bit. Because his head is turned, it shortens and thickens the appearance of his neck. He does appear to have more muscling on the underside of his neck thus the ewe neck comment. Because his neck ties in so low to his withers, it may be tougher for you to build the muscles in his neck correctly.

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:45 PM

Yep, having his head turned so much makes his neck look thicker than it is.

But I don't agree that he's tied in so low on top. It's really pretty mild as far as the "TB dip" goes :)

He looks, to me, like he's mildly over-developed underneath, and just not developed at all on top. I think several months of really correct, engaged, forward work would change that a LOT, and a year would REALLY change things.

Still, he's *not* ewe necked at all. That is a conformation fault, how his bones are put together. It is not a muscling issue, though a neck that is upside-down enough (which his is not) combined with a low tie-in on top, can lead to the look.

That's why I was wondering who did the PH critique.

showjumpers66

Jun. 24, 2009, 10:49 PM

lb2005

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:03 PM

Julie Winkel offers up the critiques for the column in PH.

turningpointequine

Jun. 25, 2009, 07:17 AM

Thanks so much for the comments and opinions. If it was my riding causing the neck thing then I certainly want to be made aware of that so I can work harder on my riding. I was expecting "set low" or something like that but ewe neck surprised me. I can also see how his head turned causes it to look short and thick too.

This is why I love getting others opinions. A second set of eyes from people who don't see the horse everyday is extremely helpful.

TrueColours

Jun. 25, 2009, 07:31 AM

I got my PH issue yesterday and thumbed through it and I LOVE the Conformation Clinic as well!

I picked your guy up to, but had the mares below him in reverse order ... :)

I agree about "losing" this picture. It doesnt do him any favors at all.

You have hit him mid barrel with the photo as you should do - it gives his front end equal balance to his hind end, but the placement of his front legs is wrong - he is almost "tipping" forward in the picture instead of standing square, with that right fore too far underneath his body. Add to that his neck being shortened - visually - by him turning and twisting towards the camera and his whole front end is wrong in the picture

Getting terrific "money" pictures is hard and you can take 50 pictures and only get one that you really really like - where the expression and stance and angles are all perfect. I think his front end is far better than what this picture shows and if he was mine, I'd get a friend to hold a mare or something of interest to him in behind the handler, so he could focus "forward" and not off to the side. It would then change his whole expression and how he held himself and I think you'd get some really fabulous pictures of him if you did so

Good luck - he's a very attractive guy with a lot of nice things going for him ... :)

DeucesWild11

Jun. 25, 2009, 07:42 AM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news/downer, but I do see an ewe neck in there, and its not just the "tb dip" (which is really just an uneven topline) The curve for the ewe neck starts about halfway through the neck. Unfortunately, an ewe neck is skeletal, but with proper muscling you can fix it. :) He looks like a cutie though!

Jun. 25, 2009, 08:28 AM

Just read JB's post that he is a stallion. I would lose that photo ASAP. :winkgrin: And, if I might offer some advise, I would also take off all of the photos except the racing photo and the last jumping photo. You have to be so careful with photos of stallions as often times that is how people develop first impressions. I bet you can get a more flattering conformation photo of him.
Yeah, agree as well ;)

I agree, JB, that I wouldn't call him ewe neck, but do understand where the comment came from.Sure, I can understand why someone would make the comment - I see and hear it all the time. But it bugs the SNOT out of me. Someone giving a conformation critique in a publication as widely read by as many young/beginner/naive people as PH is, REALLY needs to discuss the differences between muscle appearances and skeletal conformation issues.

It's no different from calling a horse sickle-hocked when he's just really got his legs pulled under him.

I didn't know who Julie is, so looked her up. If she's of Maplewood Stables, then obviously she's got the riding and training experience as well as apparently being qualified enough to judge high level stuff. If she really DOES know conformation, but is dumbing it down for PH, she shouldn't. If she cannot tell the difference between a muscle "ewe neck" and a conformational ewe neck, that's a problem.

JMHO, but sorry, it really, really bothers me.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news/downer, but I do see an ewe neck in there, and its not just the "tb dip" (which is really just an uneven topline) The curve for the ewe neck starts about halfway through the neck. Unfortunately, an ewe neck is skeletal, but with proper muscling you can fix it. :) He looks like a cutie though!
No, it's *not* a conformational (ie skeletal) ewe neck. A ewe neck IS skeletal, which means you cannot fix it. A muscular "ewe neck" is due to improper muscle development, or even lack of sufficient weight (ie a BSC 1-2 would look pretty ewe-necked) and those *can and should* be fixed.

It's just SO often wrongly called that when it's the muscling creating the upside-down picture, that people start to believe it.

The horse in this picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mangalarga_Paulista.jpg) is even called ewe-necked (by Wikipedia :rolleyes) with the WRONG definition of "The fault may be caused by a horse who holds his neck high (stargazing). Stargazing makes it difficult for a rider to control the horse, who then braces on the bit and is hard-mouthed."

I went looking for a good picture of a conformational ewe neck. It's HARD!! 95% of what I'm seeing talks about it in terms of the upside down muscling and/or the horse holding his head high. Wrong wrong wrong.

So far, the best I can find is this exerpt from this book (http://books.google.com/books?id=krD1bAEqypcC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=%22ewe+neck%22+horse&source=bl&ots=k0MDanX9Uw&sig=QbsPjAI2f9UYgmoPwQcW0niZErw&hl=en&ei=8mhDSvvMFZ6Ntgfj2tSyAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2):
This term indicates that both the upper and lower sides of the neck arch downwardBut even the pictures they have are misleading :(

The Horse describes it as having the neck attached upside down - that's a great description.

An excerpt from Cherry Hill's confo book says "Ewe necked horses often have necks that have a undesirable long, deep lower curve and attach low to the chest."

If one goes by the "depression in front of the withers" as a defining structure of a ewe neck, then more than half the TB population would be considered ewe-necked! And many of them only have the dip because they have higher than average withers.

Ok, here is, so far, the closest I can find to a conformational ewe neck. Yes, the horse is undermuscled, and yes, he's got some over-developed under muscles, but his WHOLE neck is set low - low on top (hence the dip that is not really attributable to high withers) *and* quite low on the bottom
http://board.horsechannel.com/Topic284135-9-1.aspx#bm284554

Mythology

Jun. 25, 2009, 08:51 AM

I completely agree with JB- The horse isn't ewe necked, just short necked probably with a thick throatlatch and dip before the wither (yes quite a few TB's have this). He's also tied in a bit low. Correct muscling will help, start some dressage work with a quality trainer. All in all I wouldn't think of PH's clinic as gospel as it's geared tword the younger/ammy rider. Find a trainer/horseman you trust and respect and ask them instead. :yes: He's got a great face btw and a sweet eye. He looks like a good guy, a real sweetie.:D

PSI've got a great pic of an ewe neck, but I can't post pics. If someone want's me to email it to them I can-just pm me and let me know.

Jun. 25, 2009, 08:57 AM

oh pretty please email it to me!!

Or, load it to shutterfly or flickr, both of which are free, and then you can post a link to it :D If you e-mail it to me, that's all I'll do anyway :lol:

Waterwitch

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:36 AM

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:40 AM

I frequently don't agree with parts of conformation assessments in these articles. Also I've noticed she tends to overlook issues in the horses she ranks as number one and will draw attention to borderline faults in the horses she ranks lower.

I was afraid of that :no:

I stopped subscribing to PH many years ago when it started aiming at the lower ranks of riders. That's NOT necessarily a bad thing, but I didn't want to keep paying to learn how to bridle a horse :no: Every so often I think about taking a look at it again, but then things like this come up where the info provided is not entirely accurate and realize once again there's no point :(

Waterwitch

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:47 AM

I was afraid of that :no:

I stopped subscribing to PH many years ago when it started aiming at the lower ranks of riders. That's NOT necessarily a bad thing, but I didn't want to keep paying to learn how to bridle a horse :no: Every so often I think about taking a look at it again, but then things like this come up where the info provided is not entirely accurate and realize once again there's no point :(

The only reason I get PH is because it came free as part of a promotion on equine.com when I placed a sales ad. I thought it would be worth it to read the Jimmy Wofford articles. Turns out that is the only thing in the magazine I read anymore, so good thing it's free.

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:49 AM

LOL, good thing. I'd love to read the JW articles, but ain't payin' just for that ;)

Paddys Mom

Jun. 25, 2009, 09:54 AM

The only reason I get PH is because it came free as part of a promotion on equine.com when I placed a sales ad.

So THAT'S why I have been getting this magazine! :confused: :lol:

Mythology

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:01 AM

OK so I posted the ewe neck pic on flickr- I hope this is the correct link- Let me know :D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39821551@N07/?saved=1

TrueColours

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:26 AM

Oh. My. God.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Thats all I have to say about that picture Mythology ...

Nes

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:31 AM

Yes myth, that is an ewe neck :O

I really missed the conformation clinics, in fact I stopped buying the magazine :) Great to hear Deb is doing Equus, I must get a subscription in.

OP he just needs some ring muscle work - great pdf:
http://www.equinestudies.org/ring_revisited_2008/ring_of_muscles_2008_pdf.pdf

Home Again Farm

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:34 AM

I am 100% with JB on this. That stallion is not ewe necked.

I also went and found some more examples of the PH confo clinic judged by JW and am distinctly unimpressed.

I also find it hilariously funny that the forum judge stands a stallion and has no confo shots of him on his website. Pot, kettle, black?

Mythology

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:34 AM

I know- looks like a giraffe huh? :D
This was on an ad on the internet and the sellers looked at this neck as a selling point "Arab with EXTREME NECK for sale" :lol:

I try to keep photos like this- with textbook poor conformation- just to have available.

Mythology

Jun. 25, 2009, 10:40 AM

This has bugged me for years- JW has a stallion that is a Silver Dapple, but she calls him a choclate palomino. Yet he has no dilute parent and has never thrown a dilute foal, though he has thrown silver dapple foals. The stallion is nice, I just wish she would be more accurate in the coloring descriptions. JMHO

EqTrainer

Jun. 25, 2009, 11:53 AM

I agree that this horse is not ewe necked. What he is tho' - or at least I think he is based on just this pic, I did not look at any others - is fairly *straight* in the neck. This seems to happen when you have a decent neck set (he does seem to have a near vertical chest front and height where his neck is put on) but the bottom line and the top line of the neck are close to being the same. Ideally the top line of the neck is longer than the bottom line. In an truly ewe necked horse the bottom line of the neck is longer than the top line. An oversimplification maybe but it's easy to "see".

With proper work a straighter neck will become less obvious but it won't ever be the same as a horse who has a natural arch in the neck.

A horse with a natural arch in their neck usually has a more flexible, clean throatlatch to go along w/it and is more comfortable when on the bit than its counterpart, ie: easier to ride correctly.

Jun. 25, 2009, 12:31 PM

OK so I posted the ewe neck pic on flickr- I hope this is the correct link- Let me know :D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39821551@N07/?saved=1
Whoa :eek::eek: Fabulous example. Do you happen to have a pic of him from straight on the side? The ONLY pic I have ever seen on the net anywhere that shows a true, obvious ewe neck, besides this one, was of a fully grayed out horse, and that's the one I keep looking for :(

I agree that this horse is not ewe necked. What he is tho' - or at least I think he is based on just this pic, I did not look at any others - is fairly *straight* in the neck. This seems to happen when you have a decent neck set (he does seem to have a near vertical chest front and height where his neck is put on) but the bottom line and the top line of the neck are close to being the same. Ideally the top line of the neck is longer than the bottom line. In an truly ewe necked horse the bottom line of the neck is longer than the top line. An oversimplification maybe but it's easy to "see".

With proper work a straighter neck will become less obvious but it won't ever be the same as a horse who has a natural arch in the neck.

A horse with a natural arch in their neck usually has a more flexible, clean throatlatch to go along w/it and is more comfortable when on the bit than its counterpart, ie: easier to ride correctly.
Great point and I'd definitely agree. I've never thought about describing the "straight" neck, but you're right, it's VERY different from the neck that is naturally arched over the top.

Regarding the comment on the ewe neck having a longer bottom line - you're right, it IS an over-simplification of it, but it does make a great visual. The problem is that people then see a horse who's carrying his head high and has over-developed under-muscles and they "see" the same thing and call it an ewe neck, and that's where the problem is :( They are not seeing the physical bone structure and are not seeing where the top and bottom of the neck are tying in. It doesn't help that bulging under muscles make the neck look like it's tying in lower than it really is.

A true ewe neck is not all that common, but the over-developed under neck muscles are VERY common, sadly, so that's what people see. Until you've seen a true ewe neck, aka Mythology's picture, you just can't appreciate the difference.

MANY thanks to Myth for that picture!!

Sonichorse

Jun. 25, 2009, 01:41 PM

The ONLY pic I have ever seen on the net anywhere that shows a true, obvious ewe neck, besides this one, was of a fully grayed out horse, and that's the one I keep looking for :(

Was it this one maybe?

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/833/540391.JPG

http://www.localriding.com/image-files/neck-ewe.jpg

Jun. 25, 2009, 02:50 PM

Sonic, nope, 'tweren't him :(

okggo

Jun. 25, 2009, 03:41 PM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29997851@N02/2842130134/ This is the grey I remember - it was a thread about akhal tekes...

Mythology

Jun. 25, 2009, 03:49 PM

Whoa :eek::eek: Fabulous example. Do you happen to have a pic of him from straight on the side? The ONLY pic I have ever seen on the net anywhere that shows a true, obvious ewe neck, besides this one, was of a fully grayed out horse, and that's the one I keep looking for :(

Great point and I'd definitely agree. I've never thought about describing the "straight" neck, but you're right, it's VERY different from the neck that is naturally arched over the top.

Regarding the comment on the ewe neck having a longer bottom line - you're right, it IS an over-simplification of it, but it does make a great visual. The problem is that people then see a horse who's carrying his head high and has over-developed under-muscles and they "see" the same thing and call it an ewe neck, and that's where the problem is :( They are not seeing the physical bone structure and are not seeing where the top and bottom of the neck are tying in. It doesn't help that bulging under muscles make the neck look like it's tying in lower than it really is.

A true ewe neck is not all that common, but the over-developed under neck muscles are VERY common, sadly, so that's what people see. Until you've seen a true ewe neck, aka Mythology's picture, you just can't appreciate the difference.

MANY thanks to Myth for that picture!!
welcome- anytime!
No, I don't have another shot of that neck- I swiped it off of dreamhorse sale ad. They raised the price on the foal because with the "Extreme neck" they would be a valuable addition to any arab breeding program!!! :rolleyes:

lb2005

Jun. 25, 2009, 03:52 PM

Maybe we can do a poll because I am not sure some people want to given an honest answer, considering the horse is owned by a Forum member.

The Arabian, in my opinion, is not a good illustration of a ewe neck because it doesn't represent a typical example. Ewe neck, probably (but the angle of the photograph and the propensity to use Photoshop, especially among enthusiasts of this breed, is too great to overlook). Typical, no. Go see Dr. Deb Bennett's "Principles of Conformation Analysis: Volume II," chapter 2, exercise 3: "Getting to the Root of Ewe Neck." This might help shed some light on the subject. Herein are THREE examples of everyday ewe necks, ones we're likely to see in our own fields, boarding stables, and sometimes even breeding farms.

I believe too, and I think it's supported to a degree in the aforementioned writings, that a dip in front of the withers is indeed characteristic of the fault. In fact, here is Dr. Bennett's description of a horse that she used in the group as a foil, "This "fooler" is actually a straight-necked horse. He lacks the characteristic dip in front of the withers shown by the other three (examples)."

A good way to determine if a horse is ewe-necked is to palpate it as Deb Bennett describes in her writings. Go read her stuff. And then read it again. And again.

For the record, I think many Thoroughbreds are ewe-necked and ill-muscled. While proper training will enhance the appearance of the neck, it doesn't change the placement of the neck vertebrae.

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:22 PM

Ok, I think that JW's judging on PH is usually crap and this month is no exception (can you tell that I am foal watch sleep deprived???:lol:). I did place th OP's horse first, but from there it all goes downhill.

I had the mares switched. IMO, for longterm soundness/usefullness, the longbacked mare with the better croup will be better served than the short backed, hunter bumped horse.

My disagreements with JW this month:
1. OP's horse is NOT ewe necked

2. 9 year old mare's neck is NOT too long (are you kidding me? You list that as her biggest flaw? )

3. 9 year old mare's pasterns look long and dropped??? Try, that's a club foot on the left front and her heel angles don't match her pastern angle...............which brings us to

4. her low heels?? Again, if she is clubby, it is hard to have low heels

5. There is a strange "C" shape to the 9 year old mare's rear legs and her hind ankles are enlarged...........I would take the older mares clean hind legs over this any day

6. The older mare's rear legs are no further back than the younger one, but the older mare is "camped out" and the other one isn't?:no:

I might just be crabby today, but drawing a bunch of lines on a horse doesn't mean much when you miss the big stuff.

BTW - Mythology, that picture will give me nightmares!!!!!!

turningpointequine

Jun. 26, 2009, 01:47 PM

cloudyandcallie

Jun. 26, 2009, 02:03 PM

You were very brave to do that!

I love the conformation clinic and I've been reading it for many years. It's helped me to recognize flaws in horses and to understand what flaws affect what disciplines.

In facr a few months ago, they did a critique of a grey horse that they said was "coarse" but ranked him #1 and said he would be good for dressage. My warmblood looks a lot like that grey in conformation:lol:

So don't worry about the ewe neck, at least it isn't a swan neck.

Donella

Jun. 26, 2009, 02:06 PM

I frequently disagree with parts of conformation assessments in these articles. Also I've noticed she tends to overlook issues in the horses she ranks as number one and will draw attention to borderline faults in the horses she ranks lower. So I personally wouldn't worry too much about her assessment of your boy

Me too. I honestly think the woman is out to lunch. I remember there was one issues where she critiqued yearling dressage prospects and honestly, the woman seriously has no clue and actually very obviously placed the point of the stifle in the wrong place. It scares me that someone like her is evaluating performance horses and judging breed shows.

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 26, 2009, 02:10 PM

Jun. 26, 2009, 02:20 PM

Ditto too - I'm glad my suspicions are being confirmed about the judge. It makes me very leary too of the quality of her show judging :(

Iron Horse Farm

Jun. 26, 2009, 02:51 PM

It is very very unfortunate, because a virtual conformation clinic is just ideal in every way - you can compare your horses without having to haul, you can do it any month of the year, you can compare your horses to ones no longer living etc. BUT, you have to have a qualified COMPARER;)

JW is the one reason that I haven't sent in any photos.

Waterwitch

Jun. 26, 2009, 03:01 PM

I sent that picture in to PH a year or so ago. At the same time I did also post that picture here on COTH because I wanted opinions and I knew it would take forever to hit the magazine. I have to say . . .I'm thankful for COTH. I think you guys made a much more accurate assesment of the horse than the PH confo clinic did. He has some faults that weren't mentioned in PH but the ewe-neck thing was just a surprise for me as I didn't see that as one of his faults. My main concern was if I was causing a muscle problem by incorrect riding. True conformation issue I can't do much about. Muscle caused by proper/improper riding I can try to fix. Lord knows stallions have it hard enough, I don't need to be making it harder on him by building the wrong muscles. Hey, at least I started a good learning discussion on neck structure, right? LOL

Hey turningpoint - one thing I noticed with one of my stallions is that when separated from his mares he would pace the fence with his neck inverted and his head up so he could see over the fence. I think this contributed mightily to overmuscling on the underside of his neck. Now that he has been gelded he doesn't pace and his neck muscling is much more evenly developed. Not suggesting gelding your horse (!), but could that be a contributing factor with your boy? Ie maybe it's not your training but something he's doing in the field?

ETA: I'm also glad to see others share my opinion of JW...it's a bit disturbing that these articles are so widely read by novice horse(wo)men and probably taken as gospel.

turningpointequine

Jun. 26, 2009, 03:47 PM

Hey turningpoint - one thing I noticed with one of my stallions is that when separated from his mares he would pace the fence with his neck inverted and his head up so he could see over the fence. I think this contributed mightily to overmuscling on the underside of his neck. Now that he has been gelded he doesn't pace and his neck muscling is much more evenly developed. Not suggesting gelding your horse (!), but could that be a contributing factor with your boy? Ie maybe it's not your training but something he's doing in the field?

I'd love to think this was part of the problem but my boy is actually turned out with his girl. Since I am an ammy I think I really just need to be overly careful with my riding to make sure I'm doing the best for my horse. His personality makes it easy to play around and I apparently need to be more serious with him. He's on the lazier side and if you don't tell him to round and use himself he won't. He loves to jump but is quite happy playing school pony on the flat. I blame my riding/training (and picture taking skills, wish he had been looking forward instead of at me). At least I came away with one good thing from the PH confo clinic . . .time to step up to the pate and be a true stallion owner. Take it seriously and do it properly or I'm not doing my horse any favors.

SandyUHC

Jun. 26, 2009, 10:43 PM

Just chiming in to say I'm happy to see it isn't just me that disagrees with the PH confo judge. I'm not convinced her perceptions and priorities should be presented as fact.

Mythology

Jun. 26, 2009, 10:51 PM

I wonder if writing an email or letter to PH would help them understand that they're losing readers baised on poor choices. I would think that the mags are mostly run by buisness professionals with hobby horses and they may just not know better. Just my opinion, what does everyone think of that sort of thing?

SandyUHC

Jun. 26, 2009, 10:59 PM

Maybe someone will 'accidentally' link them to this thread. Wofford is the ONLY thing I find informative in that mag (and no, I no longer subscribe, and the local Tractor Supply doesn't offer individual issues so I could buy one if there was Wofford in it.)

Also, in as non-confrontational a manner as I can muster -- Nes, I'm not agreeing with your anatomical landmark placements in your drawings. May I suggest a little less Practical Horseman and a little more Invisible Horse? ; - )

Carol Ames

Jun. 27, 2009, 12:05 AM

I do not consider this a ewe neck; but,the picture should have been taken from opposite his shoulder; that, plus encouraging him to stretch his head and neck forward and down would "improve his neck:lol:It would be interesting to do that, send it in, and see what her comments are what her comments are; This could start an article on how to stand a horse up, and why:yes: