Do you believe this business about horse shoes making a horse's foot numb?

[Gayla]

I hope you are popping your popcorn and getting a beer...but I really want to know what you think.:D:D

[JLR1]

Oh boy, have you opened a can of worms...:)

[Gayla]

Oh boy, have you opened a can of worms...:)

Hehehe. :winkgrin: tonight I was watching my mare walk. She is less lame but she looks like she can't feel her feet. I don't really believe the numb thing. I think she is still walking on her toes. But it is an interesting idea. I can't really work out the mechanics in my mind about how it would make them numb. But I see it over and over on barefoot "sites".

[MistyBlue]

I have only ever heard that bit of nonsense once before.
On this BB.
I laughed.
A lot. :lol:


Just watched the video...she doesn't look numb to me. She looks lame/sore. :(

[LMH]

Actually I don't. I DO think shoes 'stabilize' to much flexion in an unhealthy foot-so the hoof won't feel as much pain as bare.

I have owned horses that I had shod and believe me-they still felt rocks.


I also don't think (not sure but don't think) there is a 'numbing effect'-I think it has more to do with keeping hooves without healthy connection (think flares) from over 'flexing' ( for lack of a better word).

But as many times as I ask, no horse has spoken to me on the topic...so I may never know for sure.

[EqTrainer]

I don't believe it. And I'm a trimmer :D

[Daydream Believer]

Actually I don't. I DO think shoes 'stabilize' to much flexion in an unhealthy foot-so the hoof won't feel as much pain as bare.



Same here.

[bhebert19]

Wow... I guess I never heard this one before... This will be a interesting thread... I am with everyone else thus far with a def no... If they made a hoof numb how would a horse go lame from a absess. :)

[Guilherme]

Do you believe this business about horse shoes making a horse's foot numb?

I hope you are popping your popcorn and getting a beer...but I really want to know what you think.:D:D

No.

But I do like popcorn.

G.

[deltawave]

Impossible to say. Tempting to speculate. My feet feel different bare vs. wearing shoes. Not necessarily "better" or "worse", but different. Sometimes I need 'em, sometimes I don't. Why there is all the frothing at the mouth over what really seems like a simple thing is beyond me. But it's highly entertaining. :D

[Gayla]

Impossible to say. Tempting to speculate. My feet feel different bare vs. wearing shoes. Not necessarily "better" or "worse", but different. Sometimes I need 'em, sometimes I don't. Why there is all the frothing at the mouth over what really seems like a simple thing is beyond me. But it's highly entertaining. :D
What I find so interesting is that on "sites" that proclaim this, they are so sure. I mean how could they know for sure? And they state it like it is a scientific fact. Funny.

[MistyBlue]

Many of those types of sites think it's a scientific proven fact if they thought it up, then watched 2 or 3 horses with a preconceived notion in their head and then talked to 1 or 2 horse owners who agreed with them.
In other words...when there's no proof you can then pretend that anecdotes are world-wide all encompassing facts. :winkgrin:
Gayla, what is your mare lame from? When was she last shod?

[decorum]

I'm a trimmer, was a shoer, and I don't think they make feet go numb. Silly, extreme notion.

Ann Szolas

[Gayla]

Many of those types of sites think it's a scientific proven fact if they thought it up, then watched 2 or 3 horses with a preconceived notion in their head and then talked to 1 or 2 horse owners who agreed with them.
In other words...when there's no proof you can then pretend that anecdotes are world-wide all encompassing facts. :winkgrin:
Gayla, what is your mare lame from? When was she last shod?
Navicular pain. She was shod last week. Those videos were last week before the farrier visit. She was 4.5 weeks out. She is better with the adjustments we made this time and she has had 4 days of aspirin which has really helped her. But she is still toe landing on the RF. Our next step is to add a pad and I guess some frog support. After that...who knows. I am open to suggestions as always.

[MistyBlue]

Aw, poor girl.

[Laurierace]

Gosh I wish it did make their feet numb. Imagine that, you have an old navicular horse, just slap some shoes on and he is good to go on forever. Abcess, same thing, slap shoes on and ride off into the sunset. Or in my case, club footed race horse. I battle everyday to keep that foot in good working order. If only....

[Androcles]

Hehehe. :winkgrin: tonight I was watching my mare walk. She is less lame but she looks like she can't feel her feet. I don't really believe the numb thing. I think she is still walking on her toes. But it is an interesting idea. I can't really work out the mechanics in my mind about how it would make them numb. But I see it over and over on barefoot "sites".
Video of her walking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGMNGmItiDg)

Well what makes you think she looks like she can't feel her feet? It sounds like you really believe it but are ridiculing it to be in with the crowd.

[Gayla]

Well what makes you think she looks like she can't feel her feet? It sounds like you really believe it but are ridiculing it to be in with the crowd.
Excuse me? :confused: She shuffles and jams her toes into the ground as she shuffles along. Looks like a horse that can't feel her feet. But I think she can, too much. I like the post above about how great it would be if she couldn't feel her feet. HAHA! That would be great! Since I say in my fist post that i don't think it is true...I guess I am the leader of "the crowd" yeah me! :D

[Androcles]

Excuse me? :confused: She shuffles and jams her toes into the ground as she shuffles along. Looks like a horse that can't feel her feet. But I think she can, too much. I like the post above about how great it would be if she couldn't feel her feet. HAHA! That would be great! Since I say in my fist post that i don't think it is true...I guess I am the leader of "the crowd" yeah me! :D

You say she looks like she can't feel her feet the way she walks, but you don't think shoes make feet numb. :confused: Which is it?

[Gayla]

You say she looks like she can't feel her feet the way she walks, but you don't think shoes make feet numb. :confused: Which is it?

Do you think horse's feet get numb from shoes?

[BornToRide]

Navicular pain. She was shod last week. Those videos were last week before the farrier visit. She was 4.5 weeks out. She is better with the adjustments we made this time and she has had 4 days of aspirin which has really helped her. But she is still toe landing on the RF. Our next step is to add a pad and I guess some frog support. After that...who knows. I am open to suggestions as always.Depends on why she toe loads:

Incorrect trim or other unrecognized heel pain?

I do not believe that shoes necessarily "numb" the hooves, but they do have an effect on the extroceptive sensors that are located in the hoof . Other sensory system are also possible affected.

Ask yourself, if a hoof lame horse improves when a shoe (or boot) is put on, is it simply because the hoof is lifted more off the ground or because the sensory system(s) are affected in some way, or both?

We know from that compression relieves pain (ever pressed your temples or forehead when having a headache?). How much compression can a shoe or boot create to possibly affect pain sensors?

Interesting video to watch - shod horse later going bare. Despite relatively good hoof form the horse toe loads the fronts with shoes on. Horse heel lands with bare hooves.....http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/06/hoof-rehab-angel-hooves.html

Also.... One of the most compelling examples of the underlying un-soundness of all shod horses is the crippling lameness that quickly follows the loss of a shoe. This becomes a serious problem when miles from home and nails or appropriately sized boots are unavailable. If shod horses suffer no ill effects from their shoes, as many professionals contend, why are they so lame within minutes when walking a short distance without them? Again, the earlier proposed definition of a truly sound horse comes to mind.http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/unfettered.aspx

[LarkspurCO]

Yes, shoes numb the feet, just like saddles numb the entire hind end (it's a wonder a saddled horse can even defecate) and the bridle numbs the teeth. Helmets numb your brain and tight underwear numb your privates. Belts numb you from the waist down -- be very careful! Neckties? Don't even go there. No wonder Corporate America is in such dire straights!:sigh:



Interesting video to watch - shod horse later going bare. Despite relatively good hoof form the horse toe loads the fronts with shoes on. Horse heel lands with bare hooves.....http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/06/hoof-rehab-angel-hooves.html


How do you know it is "relatively good" hoof form? You can't even see the hoof clearly, let alone judge its conformation. There don't appear to be any obvious toe flares, but that's about all you can tell in the videos.

I didn't see any toe-first landing. It looks like a flat landing to me in all cases. So what? One can show differences in hoof landing simply by walking the horse more slowly or quickly, but you can't really tell how fast the horse is walking since the videos are all in slow-motion, and the horse is never shown on a level surface -- always going up or down an incline. Walk a horse downhill and you'll get more heel landing.

Furthermore, in the shod video the horse is actually is taking bigger steps, and has better overstride going uphill than in the barefoot videos.

[chaos theory]

Gosh I wish it did make their feet numb. Imagine that, you have an old navicular horse, just slap some shoes on and he is good to go on forever. Abcess, same thing, slap shoes on and ride off into the sunset. Or in my case, club footed race horse. I battle everyday to keep that foot in good working order. If only....

Agreed, If shoes really did "numb" the feet, then why do we even still have hoof lameness??

[nicbarker]

Larkspur CO, I have to hold my hand up and admit that the horse in the slow-mo video is one of our rehab horses - I had no idea it was being discussed on here :eek: There is no attempt to show anything in the clips but the landing - we are using it as part of a research project with University of Liverpool and I just thought it might interest people.... I apologise for our lack of level land - we live on Exmoor, and only the barn (which is dark) has a level floor!

Incidentally, you can see here one of the reasons the bay had problems - its from earlier than the video http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-hooves-one-month-in.html

I know this is a bit off topic, so hope the OP doesn't mind, but to clarify, both horses in the video were referred here by a vet with "navicular" - (actually suspected deep digital flexor tendonitis but he wasn't able to MRI) and had been lame for some months. If its the bay horse you are looking at, he was still on bute, we believe, when he arrived (long story, but the owner had buted him to travel him and not told us) and did have a longer stride when shod. He had been lame for 4 months though and could only be ridden on 2 bute a day.

The grey horse also had a longer stride, but as usual with rehabs was landing toe first. The footage is to chart not stride length but how long it takes to get a toe first landing. Typically when shoes come off the horses will short stride on that rippled concrete - we don't ask them to spend any more time than the time we film them on that surface, and make sure they can be on a more supportive surface till they have grown better hooves.

Both horses are now in work 5-6 times per week and will be going home soon - not back to full hoof health, but able to resume work and they should improve again over a 6 month period.

FWIW, I don't think shoes numb the feet, but I do think that the restriction of expansion and contraction, coupled with the reduced stimulus to the frog and digital cushion, can reduce blood flow, particularly in a horse which isn't landing heel first. Also, given that there are proprioceptive nerves in the frog and heel, a toe first landing is going to reduce neural feedback for the horse about the surfaces it is working on. I think its more about the toe first landing than the shoes, usually.

Sorry to ramble :confused:
Nic

[Dune]

Agreed, If shoes really did "numb" the feet, then why do we even still have hoof lameness??

Good point! ;):lol:

[Tom Bloomer]

We know from that compression relieves pain (ever pressed your temples or forehead when having a headache?). How much compression can a shoe or boot create to possibly affect pain sensors?By your logic, a tire creates compression on an axle. :eek:

Since a properly applied shoe is only compressed against the weight bearing surface of the wall, and since the wall has no nerve supply, how does a shoe or a boot for that matter create "compression" that is capable of being sensed by sensors inside the foot?

Mechanically, a horse standing on a shoe is exactly the same as a horse standing on a flat surface. Same amount of weight on the bearing surface of the wall with or without a shoe.

With or without a tire, an axle bears the same amount of weight when a wheel is loaded. :yes:

[LMH]

Tom, however mild it may be, because the shoe is attached to the hoof, won't a shod hoof have some level of pressure at all times?

As opposed to lifting a foot and placing it-pressure, release from pressure.

[twofatponies]

Tom, however mild it may be, because the shoe is attached to the hoof, won't a shod hoof have some level of pressure at all times?

As opposed to lifting a foot and placing it-pressure, release from pressure.

Not a farrier or trimmer. But even if the shoe "contains" or "compresses" the expansion of the foot when weight is placed on the foot (and I don't know if this is true), wouldn't it then "release" when the foot is lifted? After all, the shoe is fitted to the hoof when it is lifted off the ground, it it's "released" state.

[trubandloki]

Gosh I wish it did make their feet numb. Imagine that, you have an old navicular horse, just slap some shoes on and he is good to go on forever. Abcess, same thing, slap shoes on and ride off into the sunset.

Exactly! I know my boy wishes shoes would numb his feet at times. It sure would make the average abscess hurt less. Dreamy thought.

[deltawave]

BTR wrote: (sic)

We know from that compression relieves pain

Hmmm. Next time you have a fracture or a really bad bruise, press really hard on where it hurts and see if it relieves the pain.

[Kristiesunny]

Ah Gayla,

The follow up question as evidenced by reading some of the barefoot sites is also... Do shoes inhibit expansion and contraction of the hoof capsule?

I say no but lets see what BTBR has to say? :D

[Posting Trot]

There seems to be arguing on both sides, however. If shoes don't relieve (or somehow palliate) pain, then why would people use them at all for horses with some kind of hoof pathology?

FWIW I don't think shoes make the hoof numb, but I think (and I'm not a hoof pro by any means) that they do change the horse's ability to feel; DW posted something similar above by making the analogy to people wearing shoes. Shoes don't make the human foot numb, but they do alter how our feet feel.

So far no one on the thread has advocated a strong position that shoes make the hooves numb, but there seems to be some determined attempts to fan some embers into a fire.

[Androcles]

BTR wrote: (sic)



Hmmm. Next time you have a fracture or a really bad bruise, press really hard on where it hurts and see if it relieves the pain.

Yes actually compression does relieve pain to some degree.

[Nes]

When you put your running shoes on do your feet go numb?

Try loosening the laces, how about now?

:rolleyes:

[matryoshka]

There's a difference between making something numb and relieving pain. I always suspect the source when people make wild claims such as "a shoe makes a horse's foot numb." Like a nerve block numb? Yeah, right.

However, in cases where the hoof hurts because there is too much flexion somewhere (such as sheared heels, or weak lateral cartileges), the shoe doesn't quite immobilize the areas that are in pain, but it does support them. Much like we splint an arm or leg that has been hurt and needs support. So yes, it lessens pain, which is not the same thing as numbing pain.

I know that Bowker's research is not widely accepted, but he made an interesting point at a clinic I attended. Actually, it was Pete Ramey speaking while Bowker was in the back of the room. He talked about the lateral cartileges and how Bowker thinks they need to flex (as in, one heel is pushed upwards during loading compared to the other) in order to build up to their ultimate thickness determined by genetics. It takes four years for them to develop completely, and a heel first landing is necessary to their development. They believe that the heels flexing in relation to each other is what builds the thickness in the LC's.

The theory presented was that shoes retard the heel flexion necessary for optimal LC development, and shoes applied before the hoof reaches maturity retards LC thickness (so does toe-first landing, even if barefoot). When shoes are then pulled and the hoof goes back to freer flexing, the LC's resume getting thicker, but it still takes years. And by now the horse has his adult weight and is expected to work as well as before. This can lead to heel pain, which is one reason Ramey and Bowker advocate boot use. In some cases, for years.

If such a horse continues to have heel pain because his LC's are underdevelped, then the rider is likely to put him back in shoes, and the support makes him instantly more comfortable. The horse now needs shoes to do his job.

[deltawave]

compression does relieve pain to some degree.

Sometimes, in some circumstances, it may. Which is not really that helpful in making generalizations about how we can interpret what a horse may or may not feel when it is or is not wearing shoes. :)

[Gayla]

Larkspur CO, I have to hold my hand up and admit that the horse in the slow-mo video is one of our rehab horses - I had no idea it was being discussed on here :eek: There is no attempt to show anything in the clips but the landing - we are using it as part of a research project with University of Liverpool and I just thought it might interest people.... I apologise for our lack of level land - we live on Exmoor, and only the barn (which is dark) has a level floor!

Incidentally, you can see here one of the reasons the bay had problems - its from earlier than the video http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-hooves-one-month-in.html

I know this is a bit off topic, so hope the OP doesn't mind, but to clarify, both horses in the video were referred here by a vet with "navicular" - (actually suspected deep digital flexor tendonitis but he wasn't able to MRI) and had been lame for some months. If its the bay horse you are looking at, he was still on bute, we believe, when he arrived (long story, but the owner had buted him to travel him and not told us) and did have a longer stride when shod. He had been lame for 4 months though and could only be ridden on 2 bute a day.

The grey horse also had a longer stride, but as usual with rehabs was landing toe first. The footage is to chart not stride length but how long it takes to get a toe first landing. Typically when shoes come off the horses will short stride on that rippled concrete - we don't ask them to spend any more time than the time we film them on that surface, and make sure they can be on a more supportive surface till they have grown better hooves.

Both horses are now in work 5-6 times per week and will be going home soon - not back to full hoof health, but able to resume work and they should improve again over a 6 month period.

FWIW, I don't think shoes numb the feet, but I do think that the restriction of expansion and contraction, coupled with the reduced stimulus to the frog and digital cushion, can reduce blood flow, particularly in a horse which isn't landing heel first. Also, given that there are proprioceptive nerves in the frog and heel, a toe first landing is going to reduce neural feedback for the horse about the surfaces it is working on. I think its more about the toe first landing than the shoes, usually.

Sorry to ramble :confused:
Nic
I really enjoyed the videos of your horses as they changed the landing of their foot. Really educational. I am intrigued by the deep flexor tendinitis. Wondering if this is why my mare is so unresponsive to hoof testers on her bad foot. I am going to take a similar video of her walking. Veeeeerryyy interesting. :)

[BornToRide]

I really enjoyed the videos of your horses as they changed the landing of their foot. Really educational. I am intrigued by the deep flexor tendinitis. Wondering if this is why my mare is so unresponsive to hoof testers on her bad foot. I am going to take a similar video of her walking. Veeeeerryyy interesting. :)I am comvinced that the pain in navicular horses is located around the navicular bone from the constant soft tissue irritation in that area. It may refer into the hoof to some degree, but that is where the pain originates.

We know from MRI research that true navicular syndrome starts as soft tissue irritation and inflammation around the navicular bone, before the navicular bones is actually damaged from the constant inflammation.

To me true navicular is probably very similar to carpal tunnel syndrome in humans, chronic irrritation that is created bt incorrect bio mechanics. In horses it is generally created thanks to consistent toe loading for wahtever reason (bad hoof form, frog infections, other heel pain). That creates undue stresses on the internal structures as it completely bypasses the shock absorbtion structures in the back of the hoof that are designed to protect the internal structures from such damage.

If a horse does react to hoof testers, then perhaps it is not truly navicular but something else that is causing the pain within the hoof. :)

Nicbarker thanks for the additional info - the videos were VERY educational, especially since it showed that even horses with relatively normal looking hooves can still toes load and develop the condition. I often thought the hooves needed to be more deformed/contracted to increase the risk of navicular syndrome.

Nice work!

[Daydream Believer]

There's a difference between making something numb and relieving pain. I always suspect the source when people make wild claims such as "a shoe makes a horse's foot numb." Like a nerve block numb? Yeah, right.

However, in cases where the hoof hurts because there is too much flexion somewhere (such as sheared heels, or weak lateral cartileges), the shoe doesn't quite immobilize the areas that are in pain, but it does support them. Much like we splint an arm or leg that has been hurt and needs support. So yes, it lessens pain, which is not the same thing as numbing pain.

I know that Bowker's research is not widely accepted, but he made an interesting point at a clinic I attended. Actually, it was Pete Ramey speaking while Bowker was in the back of the room. He talked about the lateral cartileges and how Bowker thinks they need to flex (as in, one heel is pushed upwards during loading compared to the other) in order to build up to their ultimate thickness determined by genetics. It takes four years for them to develop completely, and a heel first landing is necessary to their development. They believe that the heels flexing in relation to each other is what builds the thickness in the LC's.

The theory presented was that shoes retard the heel flexion necessary for optimal LC development, and shoes applied before the hoof reaches maturity retards LC thickness (so does toe-first landing, even if barefoot). When shoes are then pulled and the hoof goes back to freer flexing, the LC's resume getting thicker, but it still takes years. And by now the horse has his adult weight and is expected to work as well as before. This can lead to heel pain, which is one reason Ramey and Bowker advocate boot use. In some cases, for years.

If such a horse continues to have heel pain because his LC's are underdevelped, then the rider is likely to put him back in shoes, and the support makes him instantly more comfortable. The horse now needs shoes to do his job.

Very well written and well said.

[nicbarker]

the pain in navicular horses is located around the navicular bone from the constant soft tissue irritation in that area

Thats what has shown up on the rehabs here which have been MRI-ed - inflammation of the deep digital flexor proximal to its insertion on the pedal bone.

Sadly, because of the expense (insurance companies of course have no interest in MRI-ing sound horses!) we have only had one horse which was MRI-ed post rehab, and that showed a healed DDFT lesion. That particular horse successfully went back to compete in affiliated dressage and SJ.

BorntoRide - glad you liked the video clips :) I'm not a vet, but I would agree with you - if a horse is reacting to hoof testers its more likely to have sole sensitivity, laminitis or an abscess, surely, than deep flexor tendonitis.

even horses with relatively normal looking hooves

I used to worry when horses like that were referred here lame, because I thought it couldn't really be a hoof problem - till I saw the hooves they grew in over the next 4-6 months :cool:

Nic

[Androcles]

When you put your running shoes on do your feet go numb?

Try loosening the laces, how about now?

:rolleyes:

not running shoes but my feet have gone numb from other shoes.
however i miss your point because running shoes are not analogous to horse 'shoes', make your running shoes out of iron, nail them to your feet and get back to us.

[Androcles]

Sometimes, in some circumstances, it may. Which is not really that helpful in making generalizations about how we can interpret what a horse may or may not feel when it is or is not wearing shoes. :)

actually it's not as random as you are trying to make out, once the swellling of a bad bruise or fracture has occurred compression will be more painful than not, but if you use compression before that point you will prevent pain from being felt. as everyone who instinctively presses on their elbow having slammed it on a door or other object, knows.

[Androcles]

I am comvinced that the pain in navicular horses is located around the navicular bone from the constant soft tissue irritation in that area. It may refer into the hoof to some degree, but that is where the pain originates.

We know from MRI research that true navicular syndrome starts as soft tissue irritation and inflammation around the navicular bone, before the navicular bones is actually damaged from the constant inflammation.



this overlooks the fact that the navicular bone is completely encased in a bursa.

[deltawave]

I don't mean to intimate that a pressure/pain response is RANDOM, but neither is it binary or black/white, wherein it WILL hurt in this scenario and will NOT hurt in others. Some individuals are exquisitely tender in some parts of their bodies, some are not. Sometimes rubbing a fresh owie feels better, other times it does not. In any case, a blanket statement that "pressure relieves pain" just begs for disclaimers. :)

[BornToRide]

this overlooks the fact that the navicular bone is completely encased in a bursa.Yes, and your point would be? Also the bursa is located behind the navicular bone - it does not completely encase it.

[nicbarker]

this overlooks the fact that the navicular bone is completely encased in a bursa

There's no contradiction, really - the DDFT runs past the navicular bone (and therefore is in contact with the navicular bursa). Inflammation of the DDFT over time tends to also cause navicular bursa inflammation - you can see this frequently on dissection, with horses having both lesions in the DDFT as well as bursa inflammation.

Sue Dyson at the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket was the person who first (I believe) showed that this soft tissue damage preceded bony changes.

Nic

[Tom Bloomer]

Tom, however mild it may be, because the shoe is attached to the hoof, won't a shod hoof have some level of pressure at all times?Pressure confined between the ground surface of the wall and the shoe, yes.

Are you suggesting that somehow the dead horn is conducting a neurological signal due to this pressure? Wouldn't that be like your computer getting email without an Internet connection?

As opposed to lifting a foot and placing it-pressure, release from pressure.I don't know how the dead horn transmits neurological signals.

I know for sure that the signals are not transmitted through the "Ether." Ethernet, OSI layer 2, requires a physical transmission medium - OSI layer 1. Hoof horn has not been submitted to the CCITT for standardization and approval as layer 1 transmission medium.

[matryoshka]

Dead horn can't transmit neurological signals, but it can have stimulii pass through it to the sensitive tissue. For example, even in hiking boots, I know when I've stepped on a rock. The shoe isn't feeling it, and it is muting whatever sensation I'd feel if I stepped on the rock with my bare skin, but my foot can feel it anyway. And what tells me it was a rock, as opposed to a stick if I'm not looking? Well, there are other signals that let me know, even through a shoe. Horse's feet would have to be the same way, where they can discern between types of signals, even if muted from what it would be with more sensitive tissue touching the ground.

Forgive me if this isn't what others are talking about.

As far as pressure causing numbness...constant pressure to that extent is likely to cause tissue damage. I don't know about the rest of you, but before any kind of pressure causes numbness, it first hurts. A lot. I've never had my feet go numb from shoes without there first being a lot of pain. Those satin bridesmaid's shoes come to mind. They hurt badly before all the pain stops. If a horseshoe causes that kind of numbness, then the horse is likely to show pain first. And IME, that just doesn't happen.

And, if shoes cause numbness, how does one explain lameness from accidental sole pressure or a hot nail? Come on, guys. Think about it. Far from causing numbness, constant pressure on the sole brings about progressive lameness.

[LarkspurCO]

I know for sure that the signals are not transmitted through the "Ether." Ethernet, OSI layer 2, requires a physical transmission medium - OSI layer 1. Hoof horn has not been submitted to the CCITT for standardization and approval as layer 1 transmission medium.

I believe the W3C is writing standards for the new HHTP protocol (Hoof Horn Transfer Protocol)

[Kristiesunny]

I believe the W3C is writing standards for the new HHTP protocol (Hoof Horn Transfer Protocol)

bahahahahahahahahahaaa :D :D :D

[Tom Bloomer]

I believe the W3C is writing standards for the new HHTP protocol (Hoof Horn Transfer Protocol)
Dagnabbit! Yet another bandwidth hog. I hate filtering frames at the Application layer. It increases the CPU and memory overhead on my firewall. :mad:

[Rick Burten]

Do you believe this business about horse shoes making a horse's foot numb?

Only if you also believe in the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and that th IRS is your friend. Or, only if you have fully bought into the dogma of the BUA cult, errrrrr, movement.

[JMurray]

I think I would have to walk on my own toe nails with and without shoes for awhile to see if this is true.

I'll let ya know how that goes.

[matryoshka]

Well, how is your experiment going?

BTW, I trim a few Nakotas in PA. Cool horses.

[rcloisonne]

If a horse does react to hoof testers, then perhaps it is not truly navicular but something else that is causing the pain within the hoof. :)
Only if you limit the use of testers to the sole. Try them over the center of the frog. ;)

[caballus]

Taking a break from putting in fence posts ...

With regard to hoof loading and lateral cartilages and Bowker/Ramey stuff, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=sPipjsRep9U

pretty neat, eh?

As for the shuffling, toe first behavior -- have you considered that perhaps your horse has soreness in the shoulders from where the movement originates? The first part of the anatomy to 'move' when moving forward is the belly that then causes the back muscle to work which then causes the shoulders to lift thus lifting the leg and flexing the hoof. If the shoulders are sore then the horse is not going to be so readily willing to 'lift up'. Just a thought ...

[deltawave]

Since when is YouTube the modern-day answer to scholarly articles? When is the last time someone cited a book or a peer-reviewed publication on one of these threads?

[foggybok]

Only if you limit the use of testers to the sole. Try them over the center of the frog. ;)

Or from the frog in the middle third to opposite side wall, or across the heels ..... :) Yup testing the sole is not the best way to pick up heel pain...navicular or otherwise....

[foggybok]

Taking a break from putting in fence posts ...

With regard to hoof loading and lateral cartilages and Bowker/Ramey stuff, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=sPipjsRep9U

pretty neat, eh?

As for the shuffling, toe first behavior -- have you considered that perhaps your horse has soreness in the shoulders from where the movement originates? The first part of the anatomy to 'move' when moving forward is the belly that then causes the back muscle to work which then causes the shoulders to lift thus lifting the leg and flexing the hoof. If the shoulders are sore then the horse is not going to be so readily willing to 'lift up'. Just a thought ...

Since I bought my own high speed camera, I've been looking at a lot of these videos on youtube for comparison...I am seeing the same type of things on both the shod and unshod hooves. What one person claims as shock going up the leg in a shod horse can clearly be seen in some of the barefoot videos. One that has a comparison of both, you can't really tell what's happening in the bare horse because the lighting is poor on that horse.

I love the expansion above the coronary band as the horse lands (in both shod and unshod hooves), cool to watch!

Interesting videos though, I'm hoping to get some good ones... They really can highlight some issues for you.

[caballus]

Since when is YouTube the modern-day answer to scholarly articles? When is the last time someone cited a book or a peer-reviewed publication on one of these threads?Well, I guess one nevers knows ... the video might be doctored up somehow, eh? (pardon the 'doctored up', Delta! *grin*)

[JMurray]

Well, how is your experiment going?

BTW, I trim a few Nakotas in PA. Cool horses.


Hi Matryoshka,

Well my experiment proved that in humans the toe does not go numb if you walk on your toenails with shoes on like a horse does. However there is a lot of pain in doing the experiment such as pitching face first into the flat screen TV.


Nokotas rock! and they have great feet don't they!

[cloudyandcallie]

Oh, "toe" ballet hurt even with those little bunny inserts.

The argument about shoeing and barefoot makes me go numb.

Some horses need shoes, some don't.

[deltawave]

he video might be doctored up somehow,My comment was more about the lack of intellectual rigor being brought to discussions than about the merit of a particular "find" on YouTube or Google. This type of discovery is what passes for researching facts nowadays, I guess. :sigh: Call me a curmudgeon--I like to know my sources are legitimate. And I like to hear from people whose learning has come from books, not the internet.

Show me a video of someone reading a chapter from a scholarly book on whatever topic. The subject matter may still be highly relevant and worth hearing, but I wouldn't think much of the student who used it as a footnote on a research paper. :lol:

[foggybok]

My comment was more about the lack of intellectual rigor being brought to discussions than about the merit of a particular "find" on YouTube or Google. This type of discovery is what passes for researching facts nowadays, I guess. :sigh: Call me a curmudgeon--I like to know my sources are legitimate. And I like to hear from people whose learning has come from books, not the internet.

Show me a video of someone reading a chapter from a scholarly book on whatever topic. The subject matter may still be highly relevant and worth hearing, but I wouldn't think much of the student who used it as a footnote on a research paper. :lol:

Oh, I can find plenty of books that are full of crap too! :)

But, yes, I'm often horrified when I hear the phrase "I read this on the internet..." I'm thrilled that knowledge that used to be limited to folks actively involved in the study of a subject is now freely available on the internet, but they have to wade through so much crap to get there...