Weight Issues? New photos, Post 10

[appychik]

Had farrier out yesterday to do the horses. I've very anal about everything (especially now since I have almost total control of their diets) and she mentioned that Gus was looking skinny. Wish I had taken a photo... so no new photos to show.

I'm curious if just adding Lysine (an amino acid) may make the difference. Gus is right around 1095lbs (according to the weight tape when I dewormed him last... previous weight was 1150-ish) and is a big 16 (and a half, not quite 16.1 ;)) hand horse who has always been on the heavier side. Last few years he's had issues (now we know it's due to being insulin resistant) maintaining his weight.

He's currently eating:

1lb Triple Crown Lite
~ 18lbs of a mixed grass hay (no alfalfa)

And his supps include:

Magnesium 5000
SmartMSM (10,000mg)
Flex Force HA
Fenugreek
Grapeseed Extract

I've not tested his hay, yet. I do have the information from Dairy One to do so, just too busy and not enough $$ to test the batch(es) of hay. He's been on a multi-vit in the past, but since the diagnoses of IR and the switch to the new grain, he's not been on anything. He was also on Lysine for many months... I stopped that a few months back when I ran out the last time.

Basically, he's got no topline (though mainly from lack of work due to injuries a year ago) and parts of his spine are starting to poke up again. He does have fat pads (though minimal) behind his shoulders and on his rump. Not fat on tail head/withers/etc.

Not sure if I should bump up the TC Lite either (to say 1 1/2lbs). He's in light work... 2-3x a week, mainly walking with some trot sets and a couple canter sets thrown in. He's out 24/7 in a pasture so he does graze a lot. But it's been horribly hot and buggy lately (has a run-in that he LOVES).

Just need some direction.

FWIW, he's just starting a stricter deworming program. Was previously (since I've owned him... so 9 years) dewormed every other month with ivermectin... now on a rotation. Just did 1 1/2 dosage of Anthelcide a little over a week ago. He also recently moved, as of May 1st, to the new boarding barn. So the TC Lite is a recent addition since then. Was previously on a HIGH NSC grain (ADM's Patriot Feed Easy 12%, I think) and high NSC hay. Yuck!

[BornToRide]

IR can make it difficult for nutrition to get into the tissues. If I had an IR horse I would only feed good quality forage as much as possible and soaked if necessary. I would not feed anything processed no matter what the manufacturer says and use simply hay pellets as a carrier for supplements if I needed to. I would also avoid any products that contain soy.

Perhaps he's actually in good weight right now, but people are not used to him looking skinnier - happens more than I care to see! :)

None of the highlighted ingredients I would want to feed to my IR prone mini for example - this is the TC Lite ingredients list! Flex force also contains Yucca and molasses and perhaps some other undesirable stuff. Label is not very clear.


Wheat Middlings, Soybean Hulls, Alfalfa Meal, Distillers Dried Grains, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Limestone, Cane Molasses, Salt, Flaxseed, Dried Yeast Fermentation Solubles, Brewers Dried Yeast, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Kelp Meal, Yeast Culture, Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate, Anethole, Fenugreek Seed, Lecithin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Proteinate, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Soybean Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Selenium Yeast, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Choline Chloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Folic Acid, L-Lysine, (Propionic Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate (Preservatives)).


Are you already a member of the Equine Cushings group? If so check out items to avoid with IR & Cushings horses.

[pattnic]

My first thought would be that it is likely that Gus has seen an overall reduction in the number of calories he consumes in a day, which would likely account for his weight loss.

[tcnhorsefeed]

appychik,

Hello there, I think we have talked before...for your 1000+lb horse he should be getting 2 lbs. of TC lite a day to have his vit/min needs met..at only 1 lb a day..he is being shortchanged. Remember lite is low fat, low calorie, LOW NSC and is for easy keeper horses..I think we talked before and chose this feed because he was overweight and either diagnosed or thought to be IR. Now that you told us he is, this is a very safe feed/supplement for him..he's getting his nutrition met and is on low fat, low calories and No grains. Remember that lite is 9.3% NSC which is very low. Don't get caught up in seeing molasses, alfalfa or wheat middlings in the ingredient list, a little molasses is added for palatability and wheat middlings have the vast majority of the starchs removed leaving a very digestable, palatable ingredient without all the starch. These ingredients are in there for a reason.

*My thought is you should get that hay tested to see what you have for NSC content, that way you know what you have there and can work with his diet if needed, if it's too high you can soak the hay, do you do that already? Perhaps limiting his time out on pasture would be a good idea too since pasture can contain a high starch/sugar content. or if you want to keep this guy out longer, find a muzzle. Is he really "skinny" or just looking lean and well. We'd like to see these horses on the thinner side, not saying ribs and bones, but a BCS between 4 or 5. Since you mentioned no topline, good, continued exercise should help with that. Monitor that he doesn't have ribs and for further backbone showing..if that is the case, adding in a little oil may help him out..additional calories with no starches/sugars. You say he still has fat pads showing.

*Remember TC lite has a concentrated nutrient profile and good levels of magnesium and chromium and lysine. It is still not a bad idea to supplement with additional magnesium and chromium for IR horses, so I'd continue with your magnesium supplement.

If you can post a picture so we can see this horse that may help.

[appychik]

My first thought would be that it is likely that Gus has seen an overall reduction in the number of calories he consumes in a day, which would likely account for his weight loss.

That's what I kinda thought. He went from 2 lbs of the Patriot feed to gradually 1 lb of TC Lite (which he LOVES). Among other things, I think his daily calorie intake has also decreased (which I didn't want to happen). Guss I need to rethink things, again. Aggh.

[appychik]

appychik,

Hello there, I think we have talked before...for your 1000+lb horse he should be getting 2 lbs. of TC lite a day to have his vit/min needs met..at only 1 lb a day..he is being shortchanged. Remember lite is low fat, low calorie, LOW NSC and is for easy keeper horses..I think we talked before and chose this feed because he was overweight and either diagnosed or thought to be IR. Now that you told us he is, this is a very safe feed/supplement for him..he's getting his nutrition met and is on low fat, low calories and No grains. Remember that lite is 9.3% NSC which is very low. Don't get caught up in seeing molasses, alfalfa or wheat middlings in the ingredient list, a little molasses is added for palatability and wheat middlings have the vast majority of the starchs removed leaving a very digestable, palatable ingredient without all the starch. These ingredients are in there for a reason.

*My thought is you should get that hay tested to see what you have for NSC content, that way you know what you have there and can work with his diet if needed, if it's too high you can soak the hay, do you do that already? Perhaps limiting his time out on pasture would be a good idea too since pasture can contain a high starch/sugar content. or if you want to keep this guy out longer, find a muzzle. Is he really "skinny" or just looking lean and well. We'd like to see these horses on the thinner side, not saying ribs and bones, but a BCS between 4 or 5. Since you mentioned no topline, good, continued exercise should help with that. Monitor that he doesn't have ribs and for further backbone showing..if that is the case, adding in a little oil may help him out..additional calories with no starches/sugars. You say he still has fat pads showing.

*Remember TC lite has a concentrated nutrient profile and good levels of magnesium and chromium and lysine. It is still not a bad idea to supplement with additional magnesium and chromium for IR horses, so I'd continue with your magnesium supplement.

If you can post a picture so we can see this horse that may help.


Here's some photos from almost 2 months ago, just after he moved to the new barn. I'll try to get new ones this weekend when I'm out.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wmZnhT33M54/Sf5Ro4bd1dI/AAAAAAAABFk/N4kxzu1_iG4/s1600-h/IMG_5348.JPG He's grazing... doesn't usually look so bony thru the withers ;)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wmZnhT33M54/Sf5RpJJfgFI/AAAAAAAABFs/Zsf0hRMxnTs/s1600-h/IMG_5354.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wmZnhT33M54/Sf5SvWNY1UI/AAAAAAAABGE/PFNqQC5m1ro/s1600-h/IMG_5333.JPG Front view

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wmZnhT33M54/Sf5SvIrWcSI/AAAAAAAABF8/OacPObPOP0I/s1600-h/IMG_5313.JPG Back view

FWIW, we did do a muzzle for the first couple days. He's not had ANY issues (knock on wood) with the pasture, so we pulled the muzzle. No issues with his hooves either, as farrier has been out twice since he moved and nothing has been noted.

I do remember talking to you (TC rep :)) about Gus before. I opted to do a lower dosage of grain though because he I didn't think he needed all 2 lbs to maintain his weight. I was wrong. I'd say he's a strong 5 on the BCS. He looks great to me... shows slight ribs when moving, but not when standing. Shiny and health coat, finally.

Anyways, I'll try to get those new photos this weekend and update then. For comparison, he's his pasture mate, Gringo. He's also on 1lb of TC Lite along with the same supps (just no Flex Force).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wmZnhT33M54/SjWgog1GkfI/AAAAAAAABNg/8QFg9SEO0hU/s1600-h/IMG00126.jpg This photo was taken just a couple weeks ago.

I think Gringo needs to drop some weight... but just a bit. He looks better just under 1000lbs... he's just over that weight right now.

FYI, photo files are HUGE. They are on my blog... so I just copied the links. Sorry they aren't smaller, but you can see big detail.

ETA: Definitely will be testing the hay, as soon as I have an extra $100 lying around to test all the hay. Just don't have that at the moment, but it's on my "to do" list.

[appychik]

IR can make it difficult for nutrition to get into the tissues. If I had an IR horse I would only feed good quality forage as much as possible and soaked if necessary. I would not feed anything processed no matter what the manufacturer says and use simply hay pellets as a carrier for supplements if I needed to. I would also avoid any products that contain soy.

Perhaps he's actually in good weight right now, but people are not used to him looking skinnier - happens more than I care to see! :)

None of the highlighted ingredients I would want to feed to my IR prone mini for example - this is the TC Lite ingredients list! Flex force also contains Yucca and molasses and perhaps some other undesirable stuff. Label is not very clear.

Are you already a member of the Equine Cushings group? If so check out items to avoid with IR & Cushings horses.

Ideally, I'd love to do that... feed soaked beet pulp and hay pellets. Unfortunately, until I have my own place, it just isn't possible to do. So I make do with what I've got. I know that ideally the grain isn't good for IR horses but I'm keeping tabs with how Gus is doing and I haven't seen any issues yet. In fact, many things are improving! :yes:

I do think that he's at his ideal weight... which most people would think is skinny, since most horses are overweight anyways. But, I think he's borderline too skinny perhaps. I'll try to get new photos this weekend, so please do check back and let me know what you think.

I know that the Flex Force isn't probably ideal for Gus, but you know what? It's made him 90% sound. Only a slight hitch at the trot. And, well, I'm going to keep him on the product for the time being. We'll see what the next bloodwork looks like... as this most recent recheck was botched due to vet error :no:.

And, yep I'm a member of the Yahoo group, Equine Cushings... but they tend to go kinda "Nazi" on people if they don't follow the guidelines 100%. It's very hard to do so, unless you've got your own barn. I tend to post questions about bloodwork and what not there.

[tcnhorsefeed]

appychik,

I honestly think your guy looks very good..sure, he appeared a little ribby in the first two photos, but looks wonderful in the last two.. the other horse looks good too..

I can only recommend and you must chose what you want for your horse. I really think both horses should be at the 2 lbs. of lite per day to get their vit/min needs met (then no additional vit/min supplements are needed, save money and mixing), if he needed more weight you can add in more hay, some oil or a bit of beet pulp. Best of luck to you.

[appychik]

appychik,

I honestly think your guy looks very good..sure, he appeared a little ribby in the first two photos, but looks wonderful in the last two.. the other horse looks good too..

I can only recommend and you must chose what you want for your horse. I really think both horses should be at the 2 lbs. of lite per day to get their vit/min needs met (then no additional vit/min supplements are needed, save money and mixing), if he needed more weight you can add in more hay, some oil or a bit of beet pulp. Best of luck to you.

Thanks... but like I mentioned those photos of Gus were taken before the completely transitioned onto the TC Lite (and almost two months ago)... he was still eating the old grain (which was very high in NSC). I will update hopefully tomorrow with new photos... he's a bit skinnier now, I think.

I know you can only recommend... and that I should feed 2lbs, but Gringo (the leopard spotted one) is a VERY easy keeper, but does need to get his supps. Hence the reason why he's only on a little bit, though I suppose his vit/min needs aren't met either. I will work on getting the hay tested... really need to do that!

[appychik]

Here's the photos I took today... this link should get you to all of the photos.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DAEImagery/GusConfoShots?feat=directlink

Looking at the photos, I can tell he's lost weight since the ones taken in May. But, mostly it looks like he lacks a topline, or the muscle anyways.

So, suggestions? I'm uping the TC Lite to 1 1/2 lbs for a couple weeks, then we'll up it to the full 2lbs. I'm also planning on adding in some BP when I'm out there (and I'm out 3-5 times a week) but unsure how much BP to add (see new thread I started).

[jaimebaker]

I sure as hell wish my horses looked that good. I think his weight is fine. If he's steadily dropping, you could increase but he looks at a very HEALTHY weight for an IR horse. The other horse looks great too. I think we get so used to seeing fat horses, we panic if they get a little bit leaner. Seriously, I'm battling fatties right now. I wish I could get them down to a good weight like you have yours at. We're getting there, slowly but surely. Your horses look fantastic. In my opinion anyway.

[Hony]

Your horse is in good weight but could stand to have an improved topline. Add more protein to his diet. I find the easiest way to do this is feed Buckeye Grow N Win. It's 32% protein, you only have to feed 2lbs per day and it's suitable for horses that are IR. Easy peasy.

[Gayla]

The grass at your place is gorgeous! No wonder we never have grass founder around here. Our grass is too crappy! haha. I think your horse looks in good weight. If you are riding him a lot I think he looks fine. If he is standing around doing nothing and is that "slim" I would think he might not be getting enough to eat. Does that make any sense? :) Your horses are pretty!

[BornToRide]

Looking at the photos, I can tell he's lost weight since the ones taken in May. But, mostly it looks like he lacks a topline, or the muscle anyways.

).I would say the same - how does he like belly lifts? Has his training/work changed in any way recently? This could also be training/saddle related

[appychik]

Thanks everyone... I guess we are just used to seeing fat horses and Gus just looks skinny. I do think I will bump up his TC Lite though... as he has dropped weight since the move. And add Lysine back in. I don't want to add another type of feed, because I do like the TC Lite.

As far as belly lifts, I've never done them. Is that when you use a couple fingers and press against the midline, getting the horse to sorta roach their back? If that's the case... I still haven't done them but know what you're talking about. Not sure how Gus would react.

Regarding work issues, there has been an increase in his under saddle work since the move, but only slightly. A good week is about 3-4 rides (typically 20-40 minutes in length), mainly walking with some trot sets and if all goes well, a couple canter strides in both directions.

Saddle still seems to fit just as good as ever. I do have to pad it consistently, because the lack of topline doesn't allow it to fit like it did a year ago. No issues saddling though or putting on the girth. He does seem touchy near the flanks... not sure what would be causing that.

[BornToRide]

As far as belly lifts, I've never done them. Is that when you use a couple fingers and press against the midline, getting the horse to sorta roach their back? If that's the case... I still haven't done them but know what you're talking about. Not sure how Gus would react. Yep, try it and see what you get. If it does not easily raise the back and he gets antsy and cranky about it it means he does not want to use his abs properly. This alone can cause the topline to be overworked, as they tend to push the back down instead.


Regarding work issues, there has been an increase in his under saddle work since the move, but only slightly. A good week is about 3-4 rides (typically 20-40 minutes in length), mainly walking with some trot sets and if all goes well, a couple canter strides in both directions.
IF he is not using his abs and back correctly the slight increase in work could be enough to make matters worse.

When you back him up, even on the ground, does he do it nicely , softly and round, or do you get resistance and a tendency of him to become bracy and sticking the head up and out?

[appychik]

Yep, try it and see what you get. If it does not easily raise the back and he gets antsy and cranky about it it means he does not want to use his abs properly. This alone can cause the topline to be overworked, as they tend to push the back down instead.

Again, IF he is not using his abs and back corectly the slight increase in work could be enough to make matter worse.

When you back him up, even on the ground, does he do it nicely , softly and round, or do you get resistance and a tendency of him to become bracy and sticking the head up and out?

I'll definitely try the belly lifts, to see what kind of response I get.

Regarding backing, he's always been resistant... he's not a very cooperative horse with regards to being soft and round. If he's being a good sport (and this is only after a good warm up) we can usually get a nice, good rein back without any issues.

But, due to rehabbing stifle issues, I've not been able to work him like he used to be worked prior to the last injury. He's no longer flexable and supple... it's like riding a board right now :lol: but he's atleast rideable.

[BornToRide]

Regarding backing, he's always been resistant... he's not a very cooperative horse with regards to being soft and round. If he's being a good sport (and this is only after a good warm up) we can usually get a nice, good rein back without any issues.
. That's another symptom - to do it properly, the horse has to engage the abs and use himself properly. Of course being out of shape does not help, but that definitely could be a contributing factor with the topline issue :)

[appychik]

BTR - makes sense. Well, I think I'm going to start working on getting Gus's topline back... hopefully we can get some of that muscle back.

[Androcles]

I agree with the addition of protein to assist with muscle development, otherwise weight is fine.

[rainechyldes]

I don't see a skinny horse per se (keep in mind I'm used to looking at race ready endurance horses all day- so I'm a bit 'skewed' in what I consider fat/skinny I'm sure)

I agree his topline & overall muscle development is a bit on the not there side, if he were mine, I'd be more bothered by that I think then his weight overall. So my vote is definitely with everyone else on addressing that mainly.

[appychik]

Thanks. I think I'm going to see about getting more protein (via Lysine or Tri Amino by Uckele) into him and going from there. Still going to increase the TC Lite though... but glad to know that he looks good for the most part, minus the lack of muscle.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I don't see a skinny horse per se (keep in mind I'm used to looking at race ready endurance horses all day- so I'm a bit 'skewed' in what I consider fat/skinny I'm sure)

I agree his topline & overall muscle development is a bit on the not there side, if he were mine, I'd be more bothered by that I think then his weight overall. So my vote is definitely with everyone else on addressing that mainly.

Pretty much what I was going to say exactly (except I don't ride endurance)--he just lacks topline.