Will I need to supplement protein? For hay belly...

[jaimebaker]

Scenario:

Fat horses on a diet currently. Do have access to pasture 24/7 but are locked in a small lot every other day (though there is grass to eat on the small lot).

Current feed - 1 cup soaked beet pulp, Ultra Elite Pro From (vitamin/mineral supp) and Quiessence

FUTURE diet

3/4-1lb of ADM Stay Strong Metabolic pellets, Quiessence and maybe a little bit of BP if they won't eat the pellets.

Here's the breakdown of the ADM pellets

Crude Protein, Min........................... 10.00%
Crude Fat, Min.................................. 2.00%
Crude Fiber, Max............................. 20.00%
Calcium (Ca), Min............................. 3.00%
Calcium (Ca), Max............................ 4.00%
Phosphorus (P), Min......................... 2.00%
Salt (NaCl), Min................................ 5.5%
Salt (NaCl), Max............................... 6.5%
Copper (Cu), Min........................... 400 ppm
Selenium (Se), Min........................... 6.5 ppm
Zinc (Zn), Min. .............................1400 ppm
Vitamin A, Min.......................... 63,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D3, Min.......................... 5,500 IU/lb
Vitamin E, Min. ..............................500 IU/lb


My question is, with either of those scenarios (in case they don't like the ADM pellets) should I supplement any protein? And if so, in what form. Again, the horses have access to grass at all time. I don't want to add any extra weight to them, but I've been reading that inadequate protein can cause the 'hay belly' look of which my gelding suffers horribly. Horses are in either no work to light lunging (depends on the mud and heat). Not looking for 'how to get weight off of a horse. Just looking for info about the protein level.

[goeslikestink]

i wouldnt feed any supplements if they on good hay and good grass
sound like your horses have way to much food and not enough work to warrnat the food given
if they obessed then they need a strict controlled diet before they get lamintus or flounder surgest www.safegrass.com
pm katy watts

[jaimebaker]

Yeah, I am very aware of too much food and no work. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how horses get fat:lol: The horses are not rideable. I have fenced off their pasture to where they have very limited access. I'm doing what I can at this time to avoid founder and the other host of problems that come with air ferns. But, with all due respect, 1 cup of soaked beet pulp (AFTER soaked) and vitamins is NOT adding anything to them, I'm pretty sure.

And, Katy is where I got the info on the ADM pellets. I'm doing my homework to try to get the fat problem in check. I've spent tons of time on Katy's site.

Just need to know about the protein issue.

[JB]

Muzzles when on grass.

They likely are not getting enough total quality protein, ie not enough lysine, so it may benefit them to add some either in the form of straight lysine (cheap, Valley Vet carries a few) or Tri-Amino from Uckele.

gls - even air ferns on "just" pasture or hay usually need additional minerals, at least here in the US.

[jaimebaker]

Muzzles when on grass.

They likely are not getting enough total quality protein, ie not enough lysine, so it may benefit them to add some either in the form of straight lysine (cheap, Valley Vet carries a few) or Tri-Amino from Uckele.

gls - even air ferns on "just" pasture or hay usually need additional minerals, at least here in the US.

Grazing muzzles are a no go as nobody lives where they are (I drive up every day and leave by noon). They have been on straight Lysine with no difference noted at all (were on it for 3 months). They also have Natural Balance 12:12 minerals given at free choice of a few ounces a week (they aren't too keen on it).

I have heard good things about the Tri-Amino. However, if no change was noted with Lysine would anything really happen with the Tri-Amino???

[JB]

I'm away from the house for 9+ hours a day to work. I'm inside not looking at the horses for 10-12 hours a day. 2 are muzzled 23 hours a day right now.

Fat ponies on grass who aren't exercised gets muzzles - that's just how it has to be or they won't lose (enough) weight.

You probably just have to deal with the calories first and then look at the rest of the issues.

[BornToRide]

That haybelly look can also be a sign of Cushings in the making - even though you feed adequate protein, it is not utilized effectively, therefore leading to muscle loss. Only stabilizing the condition with pergolide will correct that. No amount of extra protein will help you in such cases.

[LMH]

i wouldnt feed any supplements if they on good hay and good grass
sound like your horses have way to much food and not enough work to warrnat the food given
if they obessed then they need a strict controlled diet before they get lamintus or flounder surgest www.safegrass.com
pm katy watts

I don't understand your advice? In one sentence you say no supplements and in the next you refer them to Katy-if I recall (and she may pipe in)-even Katy talks about adding supplements to reach the minimum NRC requirements.

What if grass and hay leave the horse with less than adequate minerals?

[jaimebaker]

I don't understand your advice? In one sentence you say no supplements and in the next you refer them to Katy-if I recall (and she may pipe in)-even Katy talks about adding supplements to reach the minimum NRC requirements.

What if grass and hay leave the horse with less than adequate minerals?

Yep. And Katy feeds Quiessence and ADM Metabolic pellets. The ADM will supply the vitamins and minerals, but at 10% protein at only 1lb a day, I'm wondering if the protein is adequate. The last ration balancer I fed at the rate of 1lb a day was 30% protein. When you break it down, the 10% sure doesn't sound like a lot. But I could be way wrong.

[jaimebaker]

I'm away from the house for 9+ hours a day to work. I'm inside not looking at the horses for 10-12 hours a day. 2 are muzzled 23 hours a day right now.

Fat ponies on grass who aren't exercised gets muzzles - that's just how it has to be or they won't lose (enough) weight.

You probably just have to deal with the calories first and then look at the rest of the issues.

Well, either you aren't as paranoid as I am or you don't have horses as accident prone as mine. There will be no grazing muzzles. If I lived there or anyone lived there, it'd be different.

[JB]

Then you have to figure out a dry lot situation with soaked hay. Something has to give. Fewer calories, or more exercise, or both.

Really ;)

My gelding is quite accident-prone. Breakaway halters are wonderful.

[jaimebaker]

No dry lot. But a very small lot with limited forage. And I'm trying to exercise them. Believe me. It's either been mud or heat index of 110. There's been no give. But I'm doing everything I can. Exercise when weather permits, small lot, cut their pasture access from 6 acres down to 2. Really, I know all too well how to get weight off of a horse. All of these changes have been implemented in the last 3 weeks (pasture wise, been exercising them every chance I get). This is how I got a ton of weight off of them last year. I know how to get weight off of them. I promise. That's not what I asked (no disrespect). I asked about the protein. That's it:)

[goeslikestink]

I don't understand your advice? In one sentence you say no supplements and in the next you refer them to Katy-if I recall (and she may pipe in)-even Katy talks about adding supplements to reach the minimum NRC requirements.

What if grass and hay leave the horse with less than adequate minerals?

simple lmh-- here i wouldnt be giving a horse supplements as good quality hay and good grassing has them in them already and we also have l haylage available aswell
being low grade or higher grade for horses and ponies

i would reduce the intake of grass and put on a hay diet only if fat and work the horse little and often if a pasture pet or retired and fat for what ever reason i would still restrict the grass intake
here our grass is always of decent quality and our hay is always good

whereby you lot often say your grass is different to ours and the hay is different to ours
and not enough nutrition etc etc

so thats why i added katy watts

the point being try one which or the other method either way the horses if fat have to go on a diet but a diet should be done with exercise plus type and weight of the horse

[trubandloki]

I am missing why a horse can not wear a grazing muzzle when not supervised every minute of the day?

If you do not trust the break away feature of the muzzles that are already part of a halter then buy the style that you mount on your own halter and purchase leather halters.

And there is no horse more able to injure itself for no obvious reason than mine (he pulled a ligament by trying to get up while standing on the opposing legs bell boot, now that is talent, hu?) and I feel totally safe leaving him home with a grazing muzzle on. It is for his own long term good.

[jaimebaker]

I am missing why a horse can not wear a grazing muzzle when not supervised every minute of the day?


You are also missing the original question. Which is about the protein level.

Sorry gang, but I'm getting frustrated that folks are missing the whole point of the post. Sigh.

[trubandloki]

I do not think Protein is some miracle weight control/loss product that will make a horse that is eating too much loose weight and make it OK for them to consume too much.

[jaimebaker]

I do not think Protein is some miracle weight control/loss product that will make a horse that is eating too much loose weight and make it OK for them to consume too much.

Good grief, did you even READ the post????? I'm not wanting protein for them to lose weight <banging my head against the wall here>. I'm asking about the protein levels based on what they are eating now and if they are switched to ADM in the future. I have ONE horse that gets grass belly. ONE. Out of 6. From researching, I found that there may be correlation to the lack of QUALITY protein and grass belly. It might not have a damn thing to do with why that particular horse of mine has such an issue, but I felt it was worth asking the question. The horse has typical grass belly (skinny neck, skinny butt, no fat pads, just grass belly). On a normal worming schedule (for the love of god, let's not switch gears to that). So, my question was, on a 10% ration balancer feed at the rate of 1lb would I need any supplemental protein. I didn't ask about muzzles, I didn't ask how to get weight off of a horse. I asked what I thought was a simple question:confused:

I give up. And it's LOSE not LOOSE. What is on this board that makes folks misspell that word??!?!?

[BornToRide]

If you really want to know for sure, have the forage tested and take it from there. Most forages have adequate amounts of protein for what a horse needs. Rarely do they need extra.

But as I mentioned before, if the horse is compromised internally in any way, it can potentially also have trouble utilizing the nutrients from the feed effectively.

[buck22]

jaime, I can't help with protein/your original question, but I can tell you that my aged mustang was getting a real hay belly last year about this time of year. His topline sunk, his hips got pointy and his belly huge and hanging. He is lame, other than being ponied, I cannot exercise him, and he is an IR airfern.

what I did to increase his exercise is set up a sort of "paddock paradise". Fortunately the layout of the place is already prone to paddock paradise, but I just enhanced it with where I place hay and water and shelter, etc... so my horses must walk all day long and that loafing really isn't comfortable. :lol:

The other thing I did when I saw his haybelly, and I cannot provide a reason why this worked or defend it in any way, but I added cocosoya oil to his diet. Yes, totally counter intuitive, adding oil to a fat horse's diet, but I did. And it worked. :eek: He doesn't look like a body builder, but the belly got brought back up just enough that he doesn't look his age.

There was a couple of reason why I started adding cocosoya oil to my horses' diets, but I had a strange unfounded hunch about the haybelly, I guess the omegas? I dunno. He is on extremely sparse forage, low nsc grass/teff hay (12lb daily right now, not quite free choice), r/s/r beetpulp, ration balancer (buckeye grow n win), mag ox, omega horseshine, a cox2 inhibitor and 1oz daily of cocosoya.

take it for what its worth, I don't know why teh cocosoya worked. :confused: maybe it was some strange coincidence. :confused:


if only one of your 6 horses, who share the same diet, is getting a haybelly, then I'd wager you don't have a protein problem with that horse as it seems to be sufficient for all the others. I'm going to take a wild guess and suggest that perhaps that horse is more sensitive than the others to sugar content. My own horse is on a high protein rb and still got a haybelly, and he's on a grass that naturally high in lysine. I attribute it (gut instinct, no proof) to the increased sugars from having gone from dry lot to sparse forage (the appearance of the haybelly coincided with the move to a new place), and that the cocosoya somehow helps regulate the glucose... a guess, but it worked.

[rainechyldes]

Can't help you on math (I'm tired and don't feel like it:)

But a non working adult horse needs 8% protein, and working horse 10%

Also having a horse get a bit more protein then they require isn't a big issue, they only use about 75% of the protein in their diet (If all the crude protein they are getting is in their hay - think alfalfa*)and the rest is shoved through as waste, so if you don't get them exactly 8% but 9/10, it's not gonna hurt them.

I don't know about the haybelly thing- so I can't help you there on whether protein aids in controlling that:/

[betsyk]

I totally understand your question. We looked hard at our therapy horses this spring and noticed that a couple of the guys we had considered in the founder risk category last summer had spent the winter on grass hay and low starch feed and just didn't look good this spring - hay bellies, lost muscle tone, etc. We spoke with our vet about it and she recommended adding a flake of alfalfa at bedtime and a half cup of soybeans as a way to add some protein within our feeding and budget constraints. These boys didn't need to lose any weight; they actually needed to gain a bit, but not by simply increasing calories, but by increasing the quality of their feed.

So it's up to you whether you go the supplement route or the feedstuff route, but if it were me, I'd pick up a bag of roasted soybeans and start with 1/2 cup once/day for a couple months and see if you notice a difference. Maybe just for the guy you're concerned about, and not all 6. Another thought is to look into which season of the year your grass is highest in protein. I would imagine there's some regional variation. That might also help you time your intervention - maybe during the highest protein time of year you won't need to add more, and during other seasons you add some for the whole group. In any case, something like soybeans fed in reasonable amounts won't hurt any of them and may give just enough boost to meet their needs without going overboard, and at a very reasonable cost (here in the midwest, at least, where we ride around soybean fields!). They also won't add enough calories to matter in the overall weight loss program.

[goeslikestink]

No dry lot. But a very small lot with limited forage. And I'm trying to exercise them. Believe me. It's either been mud or heat index of 110. There's been no give. But I'm doing everything I can. Exercise when weather permits, small lot, cut their pasture access from 6 acres down to 2. Really, I know all too well how to get weight off of a horse. All of these changes have been implemented in the last 3 weeks (pasture wise, been exercising them every chance I get). This is how I got a ton of weight off of them last year. I know how to get weight off of them. I promise. That's not what I asked (no disrespect). I asked about the protein. That's it:)

needs to be smaller still as in strpe grazzing elecy fence and plastic poles and engegiser and tape of a stripe then you can control the feeding better if not going to muzzle them

[stryder]

Just need to know about the protein issue.

I don't think the question is answerable without knowing the protein level of your grass.

[jaimebaker]

I totally understand your question. We looked hard at our therapy horses this spring and noticed that a couple of the guys we had considered in the founder risk category last summer had spent the winter on grass hay and low starch feed and just didn't look good this spring - hay bellies, lost muscle tone, etc. We spoke with our vet about it and she recommended adding a flake of alfalfa at bedtime and a half cup of soybeans as a way to add some protein within our feeding and budget constraints. These boys didn't need to lose any weight; they actually needed to gain a bit, but not by simply increasing calories, but by increasing the quality of their feed.

So it's up to you whether you go the supplement route or the feedstuff route, but if it were me, I'd pick up a bag of roasted soybeans and start with 1/2 cup once/day for a couple months and see if you notice a difference. Maybe just for the guy you're concerned about, and not all 6. Another thought is to look into which season of the year your grass is highest in protein. I would imagine there's some regional variation. That might also help you time your intervention - maybe during the highest protein time of year you won't need to add more, and during other seasons you add some for the whole group. In any case, something like soybeans fed in reasonable amounts won't hurt any of them and may give just enough boost to meet their needs without going overboard, and at a very reasonable cost (here in the midwest, at least, where we ride around soybean fields!). They also won't add enough calories to matter in the overall weight loss program.

Thanks for the info! I had several horses that developed issues with soy which is why they got switched over to BP. This particular horse did have some sensitivity to it though not as bad as two of my mares, so I would balk at the soybeans. But I'm wondering if even a half cup of alfalfa pellets would do any good. Or if even a half cup of soybeans would bother him at all. When he was having issues with soy, he was only on 1/2 - 3/4 lb. of ration balancer that had soybean meal as the main ingredient. So he wasn't getting a lot.

I may just try the Tri-Amino out and see what I get. Though I did not see any difference in him on the straight Lysine, I DID note difference in one horse. Since all of my horses are on the same diet and their pastures are only separated by fences (same grasses, same weeds) it kind of baffles me that one would respond to lysine so well, and the others would not be deficient.

And I agree, stryker, probably a moot point not knowing the protein level of the pasture.

buck, that's interesting about the cocosoya. The only sensitivity I noted from the soy was sensitive skin on that particular horse. If you were just giving one ounce of it, I don't think that would set him off with sensitive skin again. It's something I could possibly try and if he has issues with it, it will be just as easy to pull him off.


Thanks for the input everyone. :)

[jaimebaker]

Oh, and buck22, I JUST looked into the Paddock Paradise idea last week after seeing a post on here (you may have been the one that posted!). I thought it was FABULOUS. So, I fenced off a section actually just this past Sunday that requires them to go over lots of flat rock terrain and to have to *look* through the weeds to find grass. I have watched them extensively and when they had access to the bigger pasture they would go out, find a patch of good grass, and only move about 10 feet over the course of an hour. The pasture I fenced off is maybe 1 acre and the smaller lot might be about a half acre. Since I fenced the new line on Sunday I have watched them and they really do a lot more walking around looking for good stuff to eat. Definitely more moving than they were. All the while glaring at the new fence of course.

I'd really like to do some pea gravel out there though and make more of a course like the actual Paddock Paradise I found on the web.