Super Girthiness and causes?

[acoustic]

Over the past few months my horse has developed an extreme aversion to the girth. Before it is even tightened, he'll start to get upset and dance around a bit. He'll even get up on his tip toes and has broken two halters in his slightly panicked state. His whole abdomen tenses up. I have always taken things slowly when it comes to the girth and even more so now. He is like this with ANY saddle; english, western, or treeless. Doesn't matter. Different girth and cinch types as well.

I am currently treating him for ulcers, although I didn't have him scoped (treatment was less expensive than the scoping), but he hasn't really improved. He is also on SmartGut and on a preventative diet for the ulcers. He started this before the ulcer treatment and digestive supplement.

I had him chiro'd recently and have spent A LOT of time searching for a muscular or skeletal reason for his girthiness and he is just not sore anywhere.

I'm beginning to think that it may be more of a mental thing. Perhaps the reason for his pain is now gone (such as the ulcers), but he still expects it and reacts accordingly.

What other reasons could cause this type of reaction? Kidney, perhaps? Some other internal problem? He's always been a very good boy and I want him to be happy and comfortable again. Before I call the vet though and spend even more money, I'd love to get some input.

Thanks!

[Montanas_Girl]

Some possible causes:
1.) Sore back
2.) Pain in the front hooves
3.) Ulcers
4.) Pain somewhere else in the body during riding that he associates with being tacked up


Or, more likely (but I'd rule out pain first):
5.) Spoiled brat syndrome! Time for a serious "discussion" about how he is expected to behave during saddling. I knew one horse who was allowed to escalate with this nonsense - over the course of several years - to the point that it took two people and 45 minutes to get him fully girthed up and ready to ride. It was ridiculous and, at times, dangerous.

[acoustic]

I don't think that it is him just being a spoiled brat. He's not at all aggressive. He doesn't even pin his ears. No bite, no kick, no outright dangerous business. Just a tense apprehension. It may be in his head like I mentioned, but I don't think he's just being this way because he can get away with it.

He LOVES to be ridden and has no problem if I put the saddle on his back. It is only when he feels the girth wrap around his belly does the nervous behavior start. As soon as I take him off the tie and walk him around and complete the tightening process, he's fine. While he is stoic, I can read him well enough to pin point pain under saddle and this is the ONLY behavior problem he's ever had.

He's already being treated for ulcers (we have another week left of treatment), but he hasn't shown improvement in this department.

As for his hooves, he's always had solid, strong feet. He isn't showing any other outward signs of being sore on his hooves and is left barefoot and always has been. I could certainly take a little time to test them though, just to be sure.

I'm narrowing it down to internal pain, or him being concerned because it USED to hurt.

If he doesn't improve over the next couple weeks, I'll be calling the chiro again and probably the vet. It just isn't like him. =(

[JB]

[quote=acoustic;4186640]
I had him chiro'd recently and have spent A LOT of time searching for a muscular or skeletal reason for his girthiness and he is just not sore anywhere. [/quote[
Did the chiro check ribs under his girth area?

What happens if you try to put a surcingle on?

What if you toss a rope around him and tighten it a bit?

[Gunnar]

What are you using to treat him for Ulcers? Maybe it isn't working. I beleive that only Olemparzole (sp?) will cure existing ulcers. My ulcery horse is very girthy! But he hates to be groomed or touched in that area! It does get better after a round of GG!

[Montanas_Girl]

The horse I was talking about had NO physical issues (had been gone over with a fine tooth comb by multiple vets), no issues under saddle related to the girth (you could tighten it easily once you were able to safely get on his back), and was also fine for placing the saddle, but the minute you attached the girth to one side of the saddle, he would start twitching. Once both sides were attached, even if they weren't touching him, he would explode. It was really not fun. I have never been so happy to see a horse leave the barn.

You know your horse, and if you think something physical is going on, you're probably right. However, I just wanted to share my story so that you would be aware of it. Horses can learn to act out like that even after the pain is gone, and then everybody loses.

[caffeinated]

I have a similar horse, and we never really *truly* figured it out.

He did have pedal osteitis, though I'm not sure how that would relate to super-expolosiveness with being tacked up. He started out fine with being tacked up as a baby and his first big explosion was when he was 4, and involved a lunging surcingle, not a saddle. I was putting it on and he just flipped out, bucking and running and just had a total panic attack. Once he ran it out he was fine, and I caught him and was able to tighten it all up just fine.

I was just super careful about saddling for years, and the true explosions were few and far between, until he started getting SUPER anxious about being tacked up a little over a year ago. Hump in the back, and just a big old mess. I started tacking him up in his stall just to contain it, but then one day he had an explosion after I'd mounted which was pretty impressive.

My thought has always been that it was rooted in a physical experience, but we weren't totally able to pin it down. When talking to a vet he suggested cracked ribs or sternum as a potential part of the problem.

Upon a full body scan, there were some spots that lit up in the front of the withers- well in front of where the saddle went. Theory was that there was inflammation or something there, and when the saddle tightened on his back, it pulled the dorsal ligaments and irritated that spot. I'm not sure I buy that and still think it's something under the girth area. He is very sensitive through the elbow groove area, which is I think where the problem is (and from watching his explosions, it's almost like it's a pinched nerve, and he has to work it "out"- once he does, he's TOTALLY fine, you can finish tacking, hop on, ride, do anything, etc).

He's getting better, and now I think whatever started it is over, and it's just a behavioral thing now. I do have a procedure for tacking that involves lots of walking in between tightening the girth (it's not hugely long or involved, just takes an extra couple minutes now). He does still get very anxious when it first goes on, but has learned to contain his response and hasn't really freaked out in a long time. I also spent much of the winter riding bareback, and still ride bareback periodically so the tension of tacking up isn't part of every ride.

He's a very friendly horse who loves to work and go for rides, which is why we really think it's a physical thing (at least to start with).

Sorry for the novel with no real answers or advice, just wanted to tell you to hang in there and there are other folks out there with a similar problem.

[ShotenStar]

From my experience with my mare, I would say check for EPM. She became aggressively girthy (trying to strike with her front feet). We did the scoping and treating for ulcers. We did the chiro / stretching / discipline / etc stuff. It wasn't until she came in with radial nerve paralysis and was finally diagnosed and treated for EPM that the girthiness went away. Since her primary neuro involvement was in the shoulders, we believe the nerve pain / tingling through the entire shoulder / withers area was aggravated by the saddle / girth.

*star*

[hollyhorse2000]

Sorry to hear about your problems. And too bad the ulcer treatments aren't working.

My mare had gotten progressively more girthy (and nippy) and I went ahead and treated her with Ulcergard (one tube a day more or less for three/four weeks) followed by daily SmartGut. Not only is the nippiness gone and girthiness almost completely gone, but she turned into a complete snuggler who now wants kisses on her nose. (Never, ever could I have done this before!)

[acoustic]

I am treating him with UlcerStop, which is Omeprazole (I didn't spell that right, sorry) and he has been getting the SmartGut supplement split into his two feedings. He is showing improvement in his energy. He does get MSM though, and I've heard that MSM can irritate ulcers, and I'm wondering if it may have something to do with it as well.

He behaves the same way with a surcingle. Just something touching and closing in on him is enough. I am going to call up the chiro and have her come out specifically for that problem. She does massage and acupuncture as well so hopefully we can pinpoint in before calling out the big [expensive] guns.

I had a full examine done on him in Feburary and the vet said he was in great shape. Had to get his hocks injected because of all the tight turns in barrel racing. Recently had a benign mole removed last month as well and the vet was very complimentary on how healthy and well behaved he was. I'm really REALLY hoping it isn't EPM! I'm going to do a little research on it in a minute.

I just feel that it has to be pain related. The look he gives me is so sad. I had been riding bareback for a while now but had to saddle up for a trail ride and to trial a new saddle and his opinion hasn't changed. Once he's saddled up, not a problem at all. He stands patiently when I mount and is well behaved the entire ride. Until I figure out the problem, I'm sticking to bareback; I hate to cause him pain.

It only started in late April of this year. I never had a problem with him before. I will say that if he isn't tied up, he is much better. Maybe he panics when he feels trapped?

This is a mystery for sure! Thanks so far for all the responses, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one going through this.

[Lieslot]

Just wished to share my story :
Been throug the exact same for years, a month ago got it fixed and I've been insanely upset with myself for not finding out the reason why earlier .....
If you search on my name you can find a thread I recently started about it too, vets, chiros, fitters etc etc, decleared him fine. (added http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=205997&highlight=girthy-ness)

Anyway had a great saddlefitter out last month, saddle been cleared by other fitters as a good fit.
This fitter said, the muscles along the wither region are a wheeny bit enlarged. You are much better off with a saddle slightly narrow-er in the tree. With too wide a saddle or in his case even seemingly correct width by many, he feels trapped like a cat picks up a kitten in submission.

My horse was very violent about girthing up, but it would be numbed once you were in the saddle and after riding you could untack & tack him back up and girth him up violently, no reaction.

Well, narrower gullet (sadly saddle doesn't fit at the back anymore now... bleh, fix one problem cause another, so search is back on) and tada, years of girthiness vanished in front of my eyes.
Makes me feel like the most cruel owner in the world, for not having figured that figured out much sooner.
Oh yeah and the more padding the worse, the less padding the better.
My horse is big bodied and it's easy to assume wide saddle needed. He also needs to come up a bit more in the muscle, so again fitters easily suggest a tad on the wider side with pad to allow muscle to improve. Well, this most likely was the cause of his girthiness.
I don't know whether in the long run the narrower gullet in front will mean we cannot get the muscle to come up behind his shoulders, but at least he's clearly happy now. Couldn't care less about me girthing up.

Success with your horse. It's frustrating sometimes when you try everything possible and still not get there.

[Austin Rider]

Have you tried different girths? Sometimes the configuration of a girth causes discomfort. For instance, if your horses' conformation is such that the girth tends to settle kinda forward close to front legs, the horse could be knocking his leg against the buckle or side of the girth. Or, I guess it could be pinching. Worth a shot to experiment with others.

[acoustic]

I've tried quite a few different saddles and girths. Since this started, he has been ridden in the Bob Marshall treeless saddle, two barrel racing saddles (one full QH, one regular QH bars), a Bates saddle, and a Circuit saddle. The griths I've used are wool felt, neoprene, sheepskin, leather, and an alpaca cinch. Straight and roper style on the western cinches.

I am starting to think that I may have been overtightening the cinch on the treeless saddles when I rode in them. His girthiness started when I got my own treeless saddle (been borrowing a friend's for a year or so). They have a tendancy to seem loose even when tightened and it is easier to over tighten them, especially the newer ones like the one I had bought. Even though I have always been slow and forgiving when it comes to actually tightening the girth, I'm suspecting that without thinking too much of it, I overtightened it and caused him to be so claustraphobic.

I figured it was ulcers causing it at first, as he had other symptoms, but when the ulcer treatment wasn't solving the problem, I was getting really worried. I'm still going to have the chiro out, but I'll take things slowly and try and get this worked out. Poor boy. =(

Thanks for sharing your stories, it encourages me that we'll get this problem solved.

[Austin Rider]

If it started with the new treeless, I'd suspect discomfort from the saddle. Maybe it's putting pressure on his spine/withers when you tighten. And yes, it would cause him to be apprehensive about girthing for a while, even if saddle fits. Also, if you've gotten used to him being girthy and tense up/expect it, he picks up on it. It's a vicious circle.

I guess what I'd do is pick one of the alternate saddles (not treeless) that you know fits him and use whatever girth you think is kindest, then stick with it for a while to see if he gets better. You'll need to do some retraining. Try to relax yourself and take it slow for a while, girthing up one hole at a time. Reward him when he stands still for each tightening...carrot treat or whatever. Assuming the tack is comfortable, he should improve.

Keep a careful eye out for any rub marks from the girth.