Why do clients always want their kids to "work " off lessons etc. Rant [Archive]

SEP

Jun. 22, 2009, 10:56 AM

Why is it that alot of people in want their kids to work at the barn to work off their riding? I have just had the sixth person this week ask that question. Most of these people would require more time being supervised and taught to do the job than it would take me to do it. So then I am teaching them horsemanship skills and paying them to learn:eek:and babysitting at the same time. I am not talking about a valuble working student that can actually make life easier. I am talking about 10 year old kids whose parents want them to learn the value of things. (yes I can appreciate trying to teach a work ethic, but maybe fire your house keeper and or gardener and pay te kid to do the job, so they can pay for their lessons. Yes this is an affuent area). Oh and these parents when told they can help out and learn but won't be credited for their lessons, they probably will get extra riding time are up set they think that their darlings should be credited at $10.00/hr. Which is a lot more that I make right now after the feed, water, staff ( the one stall cleaner, parents don't want the kids doing that, and I want it done right), mortgage on the place and general up keep.

One parent was actually shocked when I asked if they thought I should go to the mortgage company and ask to do filing or whatever to help work off my mortgage, because I didn't have the cash flow from the business because I gave every one that asked me a break.

One father keeps pushing for his kid to work it off, the next time if the oppurtunity comes up I would like to ask if he has his son work off the car mechanic bills when he wrecks the car, or if he just pays the bills. Or if they do land scping down at their country club for membership benefits?( I don't know whether I am brave enough to gamble loosing aclient to ask these people these questios but it is fun to think about:yes::winkgrin::winkgrin:) Why is it always the barn that gets asked for breaks in price?

Maybe when my hay bill comes I can whine about how expensive it is and offer to drive the baler for an hour at my convience for a price break?:D

Thanks for reading my rant, it was a long weekend.

poltroon

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:04 AM

I would suggest you look at this in a different way.

Here you have parents who want their kids to do more work at the barn, who are interested in riding, etc. A snarky reply is not called for. They don't know 6 other parents asked you.

Instead, try something more like this:
"I appreciate that Suzie would like to help and work around the barn, and some day, when she has more skills, I would be open to working out an arrangement where she could work off her lessons. For now, she still has a lot to learn." Then suggest a path where you would be happy with her learning those things - maybe it's a few more years of lessons, maybe you have a minimum age, maybe you're happy to have her come and hang out and watch, maybe you'd want her to go to your horse care summer camp, whatever. But don't shut them down: suggest a positive way to go about what they propose. Either they'll follow through or they'll stop bothering you.

ESG

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:07 AM

RedTahoe

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:09 AM

I don't see a problem with a student willing to work off some of the costs of their lessons as long as it was a responsible student, that is. A lot of parents ask about their children working off lessons to teach them responsibility/meaning of hard work and teaching their children to appreciate things they have to work for.

If I had a lesson barn, I would work on a case-by-case basis (children or young adults who truly want to learn how to ride, willing to learn to do tasks/jobs suitable to their age/size but whose parents couldn't afford lessons.)

I am confused by the ads, however, for ten and eleven year old children whose parents are looking for lessons where the children can work them off by "mucking stalls, feeding, walking, etc." I'm curious many stalls your avergae ten year old can muck on their own? (and properly?) Knowing how much work goes into upkeep of a barn, etc. I can honestly say that even me, as a horse-crazy kid, wouldn't be able to "work off my lessons" at 10/11 years of age.

If the constant asking bothers you, then come up with a canned response that you can offer on a whim (as previous poster said). You can also say something about legal working age and your insurance/liability.

twofatponies

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:11 AM

arabhorse2

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:14 AM

Just tell them, "That's not something I do here. I don't barter lessons for barn services."

Why does it have to be so hard?

People are going to ask. If you give each and every one of them the same answer, the requests will stop.

The reason people ask is because non-horse folks think of horses as a recreational pursuit, and not a real business. God only knows why.

caffeinated

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:24 AM

The reason people ask is because non-horse folks think of horses as a recreational pursuit, and not a real business. God only knows why.

Or sometimes because someone is truly passionate about it and is willing to do anything.

If I had been unable to work some of my costs down as a kid, I wouldn't have been able to ride, period (despite living in an affluent area, we were nowhere near affluent ourselves). Yep, it's a business, and it probably gets annoying being asked all the time. Having a standard system set up for that probably helps (the barn where I started working down my costs had a program set up, and you had to already have proven your commitment by doing more than the standard lesson program- leasing/showing with the barn, or helping with summer camp, and that sort of thing).

hey101

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:24 AM

Why is it that alot of people in want their kids to work at the barn to work off their riding? ....
...trying to teach a work ethic

You answered your own question already. You even said it's an affluent area... so perhaps some of these parents, instead of doing the spoiled rich kid thing and just buying the kid everything it wants, are in fact trying to teach the kid to appreciate what they have by working hard for it and getting dirty.

I think there have been a million threads whining about spoiled rich kids, this might be the first one complaining about kids who actually want to work for something! Gasp- the horrors.

Either offer the opportunity or don't and if you don't, have a stock response that politely declines the offer to work for lessons.

SEP

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:26 AM

caffeinated

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:28 AM

I also don't mind helping the kid that really needs help with this and actually wants to learn. But crediting these kids at $10.00/hr is nuts.

$10/hr? OK so that does make me giggle a little bit.

The only time I came close to that was when I got $1/stall, because I could clean stalls really fast (of course, there were only 12 to be done....)

dainty do

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:33 AM

SEP

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:34 AM

It is not the kids that want to work it is the parents that don't want to pay.

The parents seem to think it is my hobby not my business and I just want to hang out with their kids all day. The few times in the past when I have done this I spent more time finding the kids, and making sure they did it, than It would take me to do it myself.

I think the main problem is that the parents don't see this as business not just a recreational activity, for us the owners. Thank you whoever said this in a prior post.

hey101

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:34 AM

I have given the canned repsponse and the samepeople still keep trying. That is why it is seems difficult.

If you thoroghly read the post you will see that I wanted to say those snarky things. I didn't say them.

I think what gets me the most is that if someone where to barter for their services they would be extremely shocked, and have been, when asked. Like legal services for riding lessons? It was ok when the attorney was asking to barter 10 year old child labor, but when when I suggested that some legal work could be done instead, it was turned down.

I also don't mind helping the kid that really needs help with this and actually wants to learn. But crediting these kids at $10.00/hr is nuts.

ALso I said at thte beginning it was a rant.

Haha, OK I get it a little more. That is annoying. Like the idea to barter for the PARENT'S skills too! Smart thinking. Although they must not be too quick on the uptake if they keep asking again and again... I guess just stick to your guns- sure your kid can work off lessons, if the bartered skill is YOUR legal skill an even hour-for-hour exchange. :D

magnolia73

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:42 AM

As a boarder, I pay board and expect the people caring for my horse to be competent and trained. I do not want some 10 year old feeding my horse or in her stall mucking or holding her for the farrier. I don't want them grooming and tacking up for a trainer ride. When my horse kicks the 10 year old who is out feeding... I don't want to pay the medical bills.

I'd just say I hire trained and professional staff as my boarders expect that and would not be comfortable with 10 year olds handling their horses.

JoZ

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:43 AM

I think there have been a million threads whining about spoiled rich kids, this might be the first one complaining about kids who actually want to work for something! Gasp- the horrors.

I think there is a big difference between a horse-crazy kid who would do anything for horse experience, and a kid whose PARENTS want him/her to earn the lessons "to learn the value of money" or gain a work ethic or whatever. I know from experience that there's a big difference in the amount of work and assistance and independence, too!

It was ok when the attorney was asking to barter 10 year old child labor, but when when I suggested that some legal work could be done instead, it was turned down.

Again, the PARENTS want the KIDS to get these values, for whatever it's worth. I would imagine that a lot of them blissfully provide for the child and enjoy doing so until the day when some blatant behavior makes them sit back and say "holy cow she/he is a brat with entitlement issues!" And then whatever the kid wants next is going to be EARNED!

Lilykoi

Jun. 22, 2009, 11:44 AM

Have you considered offering (and charging for) a "day-camp"?
I suspect some parents would enjoy dropping the kids off in the morning and having their day free while the kids are at the barn taking lessons and learning about horse care, grooming, tack, ect. ect. It just seems more appropriate for this age group.
If another parent inquires about dropping off Suzie and expecting you to provide child-care, it might be fun to explain to them about the "day camp" option.

This way, everybody wins. The kids get to spend time at the barn learning about horses, the parents have day care, and you should get paid.

This is what I do. I found that the parents just want the kids to have an opportunity to learn more than the usual half hour lesson offers. I only have a few kids but they are actually quite willing to do whatever they can. Yes, they have to be supervised and helped. But we all had the same chances to learn more horsemanship when we were kids. We just "hung around" and learned what we could.
With a couple hour day camp, at least you get paid for your babysitting service. And I have to say, I kind of enjoy it. :winkgrin:

Sarabeth

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:03 PM

arabhorse2

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:04 PM

If I had been unable to work some of my costs down as a kid, I wouldn't have been able to ride, period (despite living in an affluent area, we were nowhere near affluent ourselves)

Caffeinated, am I wrong in assuming that you're the one who approached the barn owner to work off lessons?

Because what I'm seeing in the OP's post is something different. The parents are trying to barter for lessons, not the kids. If the kids aren't that horse crazy and willing to do anything to ride, they're not going to be good workers. All they'll be is a millstone around the OP's neck.

My trainer has one tween girl who works at the barn to get a reduced rate for her lessons. However, this youngster is absolutely passionate about riding and horses, and her parents are fully aware if she doesn't keep up with her barn duties the lessons go back to full price.

She's also the only child with this agreement, because my trainer's in this business to make money, not provide free day care or pony rides.

RockinHorse

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:08 PM

equest

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:18 PM

Caffeinated, am I wrong in assuming that you're the one who approached the barn owner to work off lessons?

Because what I'm seeing in the OP's post is something different. The parents are trying to barter for lessons, not the kids. If the kids aren't that horse crazy and willing to do anything to ride, they're not going to be good workers. All they'll be is a millstone around the OP's neck.

Exactly - it sounds to me like these parents are trying to receive reduced lessons AND child supervision services. Especially now that it's summer, parents are looking for a way to get their kids out of the house, like a free day care. The BO at the barn where I ride was just complaining about this, parents dropping kids off at the barn during the day in summer just to get them out of parents' hair. These kids don't have a lesson scheduled or anything, they are just hanging out.

It's another thing if the kid involved is actually an experienced young horse person, knows how to turn out, wrap, muck etc and can be of service.

Threebars

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:21 PM

When I was a youngling, (well, 15) I DID work for part of my lessons at a small private barn. I cleaned stalls, hay'd, water buckets, brushed and picked. After I was done the BO would do a walk through and that was that.

It was part and parcel of my riding privileges - I had to earn them...

Paragon

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:34 PM

My son is one of these "barn workers". He's thirteen and has great work ethic, when he doesn't get distracted by the notion of playing with the other kids. ;) There are many tasks around the barn that he's very good at - he brings out jump standards for instructors, clears the ring for dragging, hauls water buckets, totes pre-measured grain from stall to stall, leads lesson ponies in and out from the waaaaay back field, saddles ponies for the littlest and newest riders, stuff like that. Would he ever handle show horses or boarder horses? No way. That's not his place. But kids his age with a proper level of discipline are great helpers.

Does that mean all barns should have barter programs for them? No way. But I do think that barns should endeavor to have a place for kids like this, even if they cannot be "paid". Kids need a place to work and a place to be. Keeping them engaged in horses - at your barn - is not only good for them, but if you're a public lesson barn, it's good for business.

(The barn where we ride has far more lesson animals than privately-owned animals. Tons of lessons, tons of camps, tons of kids. Volunteer staff makes the world go 'round at places like this.)

magnolia73

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:37 PM

15 years old with experience is different from 10 and shows up for weekly lessons. We have 15 year olds at the the barn. One is very competent and rides my horse. Of course she can muck and feed unsupervised.

But the 10 year olds still need supervision with the lesson horses. I can't imagine them doing many useful chores with competence enough to do them to a level of satisfaction for paying boarders. And often times, if they don't do the job right, you need to go do it again.... so you are out the time and revenue anyway.

I used to teach for a woman and young kids could "earn" the right to do barn chores. The most basic was scooping poop from paddocks up to earning the right to brush horses. The parents were required to stay and the kid wasn't paid or reimbursed. Let the parent reimburse the kid.

80s rider

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:37 PM

As a parent paying for $65/hr lessons-the price adds up pretty quickly. When your kid looks forward all week to her riding lesson and it's over in an hour, it's sometimes sad for a parent. We all want our kids to be happy and work hard for what they want. Spending an hour a week at a barn is hard-if your a horse crazy girl and dream of spending hours and hours with horses. I suppose that parents are more wanting their kids to have more "barn time", but want to make sure they are busy and learning something. Asking if "they can work off some lessons". Is like saying "my kid dreams of being here all day". As a parent you don't want to just drop your kid off at the barn without some sort of "job to do" and some sort of supervision. By asking if they can work- gives the parents a feeling that the kid is at least staying out of trouble, making themselves useful and also learn some sense of responsibly. Most of these kids take lessons because they LOVE horses. They want to be at the barn as much as possiable.

LuvMyNSH

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:41 PM

I also don't mind helping the kid that really needs help with this and actually wants to learn. But crediting these kids at $10.00/hr is nuts.

I wonder if these people are far enough removed from reality that they think that's beginner level pay and not what, in many places, you can expect to earn after several years on the job and making manager.

magnolia73

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:44 PM

By asking if they can work- gives the parents a feeling that the kid is at least staying out of trouble, making themselves useful and also learn some sense of responsibly. Most of these kids take lessons because they LOVE horses.

But here's the deal- as an adult, I work hard to enjoy the barn. If I get out there and your 15 year old kid is safely turning out horses, carefully feeding, and has mucked the stalls to high standards, great- love her!

If your 10 year old is aimlessly pushing a broom, just fed my horse the pony's ration and is being noisy while the farrier is looking at my horse's hinds.... your kid is irritating a paying customer. If my horse's pee spot was missed, I'm going to demand the BM muck the stall. I don't want my lesson interuptted so the trainer can go run over and stop your kid from putting the pony in the mare paddock.

They might love horses, but sorry- its hard to see most 10 year olds as being particularly useful with limited supervision. If you want to be there helping them muck and sweep and turn out, maybe, but I don't want to hear you yelling at them. I don't want to hear your kid whining.

Think about it- you save up and for your anniversary you go to Chez Expensive Restaurant. The waiter is 11, but loves fine dining- spills wine on you. The chef's son is doing apps- so you'll forgive the raw chicken on your salad, right? And hey- the hostess is 10 and crying because she is thristy- but that's OK. They love food and are learning responsibility.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:48 PM

Maybe it's because some parents are actually trying to parent and teach their children to work for things instead of having everything handed to them? then they don't turn into the spoiled children we see at shows that can't even tack up their own horse?

if it were not for the generosity of a barn owner when I was a child i would not have been able to ride, and would probably not be riding today. And yes it was a very busy lesson, training and show barn.
I painted jumps, fixed fences, mowed, groomed and bathed horses, cleaned the horse trailer after shows, packed it for shows you name it I did it.
But I was also of an age where I did not need constant supervision.
I got to ride, and my trainer got slave labor LOL
The education I got was invaluable.

If you don't want to do it, don't but then don't complain about taking kids to shows that don't know how to do anything.

gloriginger

Jun. 22, 2009, 12:57 PM

. Or if they do land scping down at their country club for membership benefits.

Now, that is funny.

I think the only way to handle this is to give a firm, no. Don't explain, do give excuses, just a simple, No.

Ibex

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:02 PM

Geez, working off lessons is the ONLY way I got to ride as a kid. I was 13, scrawny, and worked my butt off for someone who I still thank every day for teaching me what good barn management looks like.

ReSomething

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:12 PM

If I were the parent trying to pay out less I might be perfectly fine with trading my services on behalf of the kid. I'm not a lawyer or a doctor but I can handle sending out the monthly invoices or some light bookeeping or simple time consuming task.

I kinda think that these might be parents trying to make their kids learn the value of a dollar by working at the barn or trying to get their kids to appreciate the animals more, learn horsemanship and responsiblity. It's a great idea from the parent's standpoint but they are kind of shirking their parental duties when they expect you to deal with it. Maybe when the kid is 13 or older, but at 10 they would be better off having the kid wash the dog at home.

You're sure entitled to your vent though.

Posting Trot

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:17 PM

There's a lot going on in this situation, which is why (probably) it's been so hard for the OP to think of exactly what to do.

The parents undoubtedly do want to teach their children the value of a dollar, and that's laudable. But, as the OP points out, they probably wouldn't ask the orthodontist if the kid could work as a dental tech to work off the cost of the braces.

So, it's also true that the parents seem to think that barn work is truly unskilled--i.e. anyone (including 10 year olds) could do the work without supervision and training.

You could suggest that the *parents* work off the lesson costs by mucking out (ok, sorry, that was meant to be snarky); or that the parents pay the cost of training the child (say 3 "horsemanship" lessons that involve no riding, just mucking out, leading horses correctly, general grooming, nutrition, etc.), and then allow the best students to work off some of their riding lessons.

In fact, you could turn it into a competitive thing--all under 12 year old riders have to take the 3 horsemanship classes as part of a package of classes. The top three students in the class will be allowed to work off part of their lessons.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that maybe you should try to channel the positive aspects of the parents' requests for their children to work into a program that works for you as well.

Good luck.

jn4jenny

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:21 PM

It's not just you. I live in a pretty affluent area and I've never seen so many people who want to barter, trade, or just have stuff for free! My husband jokes that's how they get so rich!

Sorry, but my plumber doesn't take barter, nor does the electric company, the post office, the bank, the electrician, the vet, etc. etc. So when I do work for you I just want a nice handful of cash or check thank you very much! Trying to make a living here!!

Actually, there ARE many plumbers, electricians, vets, etc. who would barter services. You probably have never bothered to ask and never bothered to seek them out. I do not personally barter very often, but I've done it now and then.

That said, SEP is absolutely in her rights to say no. It's her barn and she can run it how she likes. SEP, I suggest you come up with a standard answer and give it to everyone. Like, "Sorry, but liability issues would prevent me from doing so."

To be fair, when I was 10 and 11 years old, I *did* work in a barn on Tuesday afternoons and received 50% off my weekly lesson fee in exchange. I groomed and saddled 6 to 8 horses per hour, climbed the stacked hay in the hay barn to throw down 8 bales and loaded them into the back of a truck for distribution, mucked stalls, swept aisle ways, lugged the trash cans up a hill to the dumpster, etc. But in retrospect, I see that this was a liability nightmare AND was probably only feasible because the barn had a massive lesson horse program of 20+ horses and a full-time barn manager.

Nes

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:31 PM

When I was a young rider we were expected to take care of our lesson horses and tack. That mean you showed up in your lesson with you tack and horse cleaned, you cleaned your tack and horse before you put them away and you skept the stall or helped out in the barn when needed; and we certainly weren't given money off for being responsible!

I think you should start offering horsemanship lessons, this will teach the kids more about caring for horses which seems to be partly what these parents are interested in. If the parents are honestly concerned about the price of lessons, maybe you should suggest they come by and help?

Hubby is an electrician and I can say I frequently barter away his time (poor boy! :lol:) in return for payback on board, however he's a professional. It's very common for people in the construction industry to barter their services, we've already got a carpenter and plumber in debt to us when we finally build out house :) It's the same with me - I've traded board for barn-work, but that what I do to make a living.

mroades

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:39 PM

The parents are trying to get out of their job of parenting.

It is their job to teach a child the value of a dollar, a work ethic, and responsibility. They are trying to get you to do it for them.

Tell them you'd be glad to help their kids learn these values, but your hourly rate as a life skills coach is three times your riding lesson rate :lol:

Ding, ding we have a winner! This is what I see most often..and I do have two amazing working students...but no your 7 yr old cannot help clean stalls in exchange for board!! Aaggh

vacation1

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:41 PM

I also am from a somewhat affluent area, and I see two things going on here:

1) Unabashed cheapness. The more money people have/make, the more breaks they want and even expect. Some people just have limitless chutzpah; you joke that they don't try to make deals with their mechanic or their country club, but many of them probably do try. And when they succeed, it makes them feel great. Of course they'll try with you; they'd try with anyone. You can't shut them down, they think you'll break if they harass you long enough.

2) Recognition of the very special child. Middle-class and upper-middle-class parents have come to expect that their children come first all the time in any situation, without question. Go to any suburban restaurant and the waiting area will be completely filled with healthy, restless, loud children occupying all the seats while adults, even elderly people, stand. The children got there first, didn't they? What, you think the children should stand? Shane just got back from lacrosse camp, Emily's been at swim meets all weekend. These children work harder than you, they deserve some rest and recreation. I swear that these parents aren't looking for a cash break or a babysitter. They're just automatically trying to enforce the code of "The world owes my child a teachable moment approximately every sixty seconds."

Bogie

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:45 PM

I would just look at them with incredulity and say, "Maybe you don't understand. I offer lessons in horsemanship that covers all of what you're talking about and I only charge $$."

You would be teaching them, after all :lol:.

allikat819

Jun. 22, 2009, 01:59 PM

I started at 12 working off my lessons, we had an alotted number of stalls to clean, twice a week for one lesson - most often a group lesson. This was a situation that most of the young riders were in, and there were enough clients and horses boarding that I think it didn't affect income too much. It worked out well for us... it's not an hourly rate we were assigned but total outcome of work... and since we were girls aged 12-16 we would get distracted and chatty... But I think it's a great way to let kids still have the chance to ride. I wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. That said, you don't OWE that to anyone, if it's not feasible.... it's not feasible, and others have already posted ways of declining better than I could...

Pirateer

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:07 PM

When I was a Junior I worked at my barn.

We did not, however, do a credit system for lessons. I thought this was VERY smart and kept trainer from dealing with "working student" crap. We cleaned stalls and everything else, then we got a paycheck every few weeks or so, and then if we used that for lessons, great, if not....whatever.

That said, I'd tell them that Peanut would earn more money at a "normal job".

billiebob

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:10 PM

I have no issues letting kids work off lessons or extra riding time AS LONG AS THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE YOUNG PEOPLE! I don't know any 10 year olds that would fall under this category. 13 year olds, maybe, but it's not my job to babysit them. I have to be comfortable trusting them to do something that's a part of my normal job. We have barn kids, and they're great. We have to spend time supervising them at first and the ones that aren't ready for this are told to come back in a few years. Or never in very few cases.

At my last barn, one of my students was a then 11 y.o. whose parents couldn't afford lessons. I wasn't allowed to let him work at the barn, so he cleaned my tack for me twice a week. I paid him, conveniently just enough to cover the weekly lesson. This was the solid take it apart and scrub and condition it, so it ended up being a good amount of work. It was a good compromise, and the kid is still riding today. And he can clean tack like nobody's business!

arabhorse2

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:12 PM

If parents can afford to give their kids riding lessons, then they pay the price. If they want Precious Penelope to learn "life lessons" and how to be responsible, there are day camps where, yet again, Mumsy and Daddums have to pay for their child to attend.

Training stables are a business, plain and simple. If the owner doesn't want to barter services, she shouldn't be hounded by parents who need to learn to buy a clue. She's a for profit business, not a free daycare.

Horses are expensive, luxury items, just like Daddum's speed boat and Mumsy's Mercedes convertible. Neither of those items are something that you can barter for, so why would anyone think horses would be any different?

For those of you who were taken under a BO's wing, good for you and them! But they didn't have to, and I'll bet your parents weren't the ones trying to barter lessons for you.

trubandloki

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:17 PM

I think a bunch of you are missing what I believe is the point of the OP's vent. I believe the OP is willing to bend over backwards for the hard working teen who is short on cash and really wants to ride, etc but is willing to work themselves silly for the privilege. The people causing the issues are those that think snookums (in this case a very young snookums) should be credited $10/hour just so Mommy and Daddy can have them learn a life lesson.

Huge difference.

NanO

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:31 PM

I just want to say that I am eternally greatful to the trainer who let not only my daughter but ME work off our lessons and part of our board and also thanks to the trainer we have now who is letting her work off part of her board. And, when my daughter was younger we worked together and I surpervised her, made sure she did things correctly, was safe, and didn't bother anybody. I will say that we didn't ask to work off services, they offered it to us and we couldn't have moved my daughter's horse to her college town without their offer and she will work her you know what off to prove to them that she's worth it. We were " the poor folk" who wanted to ride with every fiber of our being and could never have gotten to have horses or take lessons without their help. That being said, our second trainer took advantage of US. No matter how hard we worked, how long we worked, or what we accomplished for them it was never enough, but we took the abuse until they finally raised their fees to the point that even working form them we couldn't afford it.

HenryisBlaisin'

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:48 PM

katarine

Jun. 22, 2009, 02:54 PM

I feel your pain, OP. I want cold hard cash for my hard work. I don't want to supervise Susie halfassedly cleaning a bridle in exchange for giving her 10 dollars in credits toward a lesson.
Now if Susie really wants to work, and wants to show up and help just for the experience, is attentive and eager to please, I am ALL there. Totally. but I don't think Susie can be 10 and do all those things, I just don't. 13, sure. 10, not so much.

I worked my butt off in HS to help pay my horse's way, but I think I earned the equivalent of 10 cents a hour LOL!

OP just say no, I'm not comfortable with a barter system. You could sell horsemanship lessons, to be sure. They cost the same as riding, or even 10$ less ...since you aren't putting wear and tear on a horse. Could be stall cleaning, first aid, tack cleaning, feed instructions, etc...just think on that.

PS Re: bartering. I started a colt in exchange for a full tank of LP gas once :)

analise

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:00 PM

At the barn I used to take lessons at, they have a huge working student program for kids and adults alike. The basic thing is that you work so many hours, you earn a spot in an extra (on top of your regular lesson you pay for) hour-long group lesson. Which was cool, I liked riding twice a week, for certain. That said, I got frustrated when it felt like I was running around helping lead horses for lead line classes, cleaning horse poop in the driveway, filling water tubs, sweeping aisles, cleaning out waterers, etc, and I'd see some of the younger folk (I'm 25) running around and playing instead of getting stuff done.

I was really glad to have the opportunity to do that second lesson because I certainly couldn't have justified the extra expense if I'd just paid for a second lesson but it felt like a lot of people used the barn as a glorified day camp/babysitter thing and that tended to grate.

The barn I'm at now doesn't offer lessons in exchange for work, but for those who volunteer who work a minimum of so many hours a month, you're allowed riding privileges so I still get the extra riding time in which I like. :)

Anyway, where's my point?

It sounds like what you should do is decide exactly what you're willing to provide in exchange for extra "help". Like, all volunteers have to be at least 15 and if they don't have the experience necessary to work without your assistance, they have to go to a training session (paid for by them or their parents). And then they work say....10 hours in exchange for an hour group lesson. Or so many hours a month and you deduct a set price off their board. Or whatever. But it has to be consistent good work or they get "fired". Possibly you could even do a "probationary" period where for the first month they only work and only after that time that they're seen to be able to work well do they get credit for whatever they've earned because they've shown you can trust them to keep their end of the deal.

And if you don't want to deal with too much of this, limit how many people can be involved. Only 5 people total. Or only one volunteer a day and they have a scheduled time to show up. Or whatever works for you.

EDIT: Or if you're not interested in doing it at all, just keep saying, "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in running a working student/volunteer program at this time." with a smile. :)

xeroxchick

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:06 PM

I also am from a somewhat affluent area, and I see two things going on here:

2) Recognition of the very special child. Middle-class and upper-middle-class parents have come to expect that their children come first all the time in any situation, without question. Go to any suburban restaurant and the waiting area will be completely filled with healthy, restless, loud children occupying all the seats while adults, even elderly people, stand. The children got there first, didn't they? What, you think the children should stand? Shane just got back from lacrosse camp, Emily's been at swim meets all weekend. These children work harder than you, they deserve some rest and recreation. I swear that these parents aren't looking for a cash break or a babysitter. They're just automatically trying to enforce the code of "The world owes my child a teachable moment approximately every sixty seconds."

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

AppendixQHLover

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:09 PM

UGH..this is one that drives me batty..

I can completely understand the horse crazy kids working for lessons. I was one of those horse crazy kids. However, I started at the bottom of the pack cleaning stalls for 20c a stall and sweeping. It took me a week to earn money for a lesson. Once I got better I got to evolve to prepping ponies for lessons. Made 40c an hour for that.

compensating the kids 10$ a hour rofl..that is a funny one. McDonald's workers don't even make that.

2foals

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:15 PM

This is an interesting discussion. I don't have younger clients, but often have prospective adult boarders ask about "working off part of their board." I always (internally) roll my eyes--most of the time people are thinking about helping out here and there at their convenience and cherry-picking the most pleasant jobs around the barn. That's just not particularly helpful.

From my perspective barn work and horse care requires a lot of skill and attention. I choose, train and supervise my employees very carefully. They know the horses, the system, the equipment. There are a million little things that need to be done a certain way. Yeah, I find it a little odd that people think they could just step right in and do the job. The reality is that training and supervising new workers (adult or child) is a big time suck (at best).

Also, times have changed. My clients pay me a lot of money and entrust me with their horse's care...this is a big responsibility and I can't just let different people do the job as it is convenient. Also, what about the liability and insurance issues? My employees have proper insurance, I'm not sure what the coverage would be for a boarder working occasional hours, let alone a child.

I really like the idea for some kind of an "horse care apprenticeship", lasting a few hours each day or a few days a week. Kids really need their barn time, and so few kids have have their horses at home nowadays, how are they ever going to learn horsemanship? Yeah, I know some of these parents might turn up their noses--"What, ME pay YOU for my kid to do barn chores?" But truthfully, I just can't think of too many professions where you can learn the profession for free.

fabuleux

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:25 PM

I was one of those kids who worked around the barn for extra riding time, but STILL paid for a lesson once a week. You could offer that if the children are able to ride by themselves. (Of course, make the rules for their abilities- just flat work, just walk/trot, just walk, etc.)

Or, you could say that you are offering the working student to ___ students, and they are welcome to write a small letter explaining why they think they deserve to work off their lessons. That way, you can pick one or 2 students to work off lessons instead of the whole barn,

Jsalem

Jun. 22, 2009, 03:46 PM

I've gotten that myself over the years. The teenagers, I can understand. And from time to time, I've hired a good one. But the 9 and 10 year olds?

I think that the parents have this romanticized idea that their "horse crazy" child will be taken under the wing of the trainer. The gruff, but kindly horsewoman appreciates the passion shown by this special child. Child helps with the foaling, child is the only one who can bridle the new, abused racehorse. Oh, and child wins the Medal Finals. You get my drift.

The parents have no idea of the long hours, the low pay. They don't see it as baby sitting. They probably honestly think that the child can help. And that you'll be happy to have their kid around.

So I just smile and say that we have a full time, professional staff.

twofatponies

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:00 PM

The day camp idea is a good one. I do know as a kid I would have been in heaven to be allowed to "help" all day at a barn! But obviously young, untrained kids aren't very helpful.

I do know several big show barns that had a special free riding school program just for the kids of employees. It helped them spot the most talented and train them to become the next generation of riders and trainers for their own horses.

Similarly when I was a kid the camp I went to every summer hired counselors from the older kids they got to know over the years that they were campers.

A regular riding camp type program could help you spot the kids who might make good employees in the future. Maybe not so useful at a very small barn, but handy at a bigger one.

TheJenners

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:12 PM

When I was a BM, the free babysitting drove me nuts. I was a barn nazi and lesson nazi anyways, so the parents didn't even BOTHER TO ASK. They'd be two hours or more late to pick up Little Johnny and Little Susie from lessons or camp. My older, more mature students I might enlist to catch a horse for me or ride out to the back pastures to help feed...but the others? Nope. "Sit here, call your Mom, ok?" Then Mom or Dad would roll up and ask why Little Johnny or Little Susie was sitting the barn alone, or outside playing fetch with the dogs instead of helping. They usually only ask once, because I'd tell them exactly why: your seven year old is incapable of helping me with what needs to be done (or, your 10 year old who has only taken two lessons), and could possibly be injured; therefore he/she sat here bored waiting for you...speaking of, did you realize you would be two hours late when you dropped him/her off?

With campers I gave leeway, because camp ends at 4 and parents generally work til 5. No problem there, I sent them on bottle-fetching missions and chair-folding missions and bathroom-tidying chores and they generally could help lead out the camp horses.

Haven's Edge

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:29 PM

I worked my butt off as a kid to be able to ride.. my parents had NO interest in me riding at all (umm yeah they did have racing horses.. ironically). I was grateful to get anything to do just for some riding time.. when ever I had any money I would go rent a horse.. I was a great work slave and got to be a good enough rider that soon I did little work but rode tons of horses.

However.. I totally understand the mountainous expense of running a horse business and when Mom rolls in with the Mercedes/Porsche and then wants to have the wonder child do some work.. I am torn.. alot of those kids NEED the experience actually working to get something they want, one the other hane I NEED money to be able to operate... so I compromise.. they pay their regular lesson/training fees and then the wonder child does barn work for extra lessons or part of some show expenses.

Occasionally a kid pops up who is just like I was.. rides well , no money but huge desire/desperation to be around horses any way they can. I am happy to find them, I try to give them work at my barn or at a friends.. they are always happy to be there and usually works their butt off.

Hope I can find one or 2 after I get moved and get the barn set up.

btw First post ! No more lurking and enjoying you all from the outside.

Jsalem

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:31 PM

All of these suggestions for camps, extra programs, etc make me giggle. I think the OP's point is that she just wants to be paid MONEY for her work like every one else. She probably doesn't want to work extra hours.

Buffyblue

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:42 PM

They want free babysitting and a discount on lessons? Just say NO!!

Go Fish

Jun. 22, 2009, 04:59 PM

Boy, times change. When I was a kid, my MOTHER made me work at the barn for FREE. She believed that the "lesson" was the privledge, the barn work was the "price." I wasn't going to get it for free, even from her.

Looking back, my Mother was trying to teach me that something worth having had to be worked for. Sure, she could afford to pay for the lesson...but I think she was testing me to see if I really wanted to ride...if I bugged out, the lessons were over. If I bucked up...she'd foot the bill.

I'm still riding 40 years later...:lol:

Paragon

Jun. 22, 2009, 05:08 PM

Boy, times change. When I was a kid, my MOTHER made me work at the barn for FREE. She believed that the "lesson" was the privledge, the barn work was the "price." I wasn't going to get it for free, even from her.

That's how things started here. Kiddo did a camp, then lost interest. Then did another camp, then lost interest. Finally, more than a year later, he came to me and said he wanted to take lessons. "Oh, no," I said. "You're going to prove it this time. And you're going to work, first." He came to the barn with me three times a week for months, looking after ponies, before I let him take lessons again. Killed two birds with one stone there. :lol: I got a rider who's going to stay with it for a good long time, and a great worker besides!

hey101

Jun. 22, 2009, 05:21 PM

Jsalem

Jun. 22, 2009, 05:28 PM

I understand the whole "they need to work for it" idea. That's great. But when they have no skills, they are actually a liability around the barn. It is an imposition to expect the trainer to spend unpaid time teaching them those skills. Perhaps the parents should have the kids babysit, mow lawns, etc. to earn the $$ to pay for the trainer's time. Dad can supervise while child learns to mow. What an idea!

kpony

Jun. 22, 2009, 05:44 PM

The $10 an hour thing is outrageous! Maybe the learning experience here is, "You have to learn a lot more to earn the privelege of being around horses". I don't think teenaged and adult working students with serious skills get that much, even in credit! And not sure about professional barn staff.

dogchushu

Jun. 22, 2009, 05:57 PM

Just to bring in another perspective here, but, I'm a teacher, and I can tell you what I see more and more lately.

Is it possible that the economic downturn has affected these parents more than they are willing to let on? Perhaps they can no longer afford the lessons, but either don't want to worry the children by telling you that when they ask, or they are ashamed of it themselves and don't want you to know? Perhaps their kids ARE passionate about their riding, and their lessons are very important to them, but their parents don't want them to worry.

I see similar situations a LOT-we have students having a very difficult time financailly, but they or their families never let on that it's going on. We usually find out from others that they are struggling, but their pride keeps them from telling us.

I'm happy to support kids trying to make up for lost or diminished allowances in some areas (yard work) but not in others (no way am I letting a kid up on a ladder to clean my gutters nor am I giving them a key to my house to walk my dogs).

This may not be the situation with any or all of your students' families, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was, at least in some cases.

Is $10/hr WAY too much for them to expect? Yes. For a child with no skills, $5 an hour is a LOT more fair, or better yet pay by the job, like 50 cents per bucket for scrubbing, etc. I'm not saying you should say yes to every request or even any of them, but I was just offering this perspective that I have seen more and more all the time. Things, especially involving money, are not always what they appear. I don't know if there is a way to look into it more, but it is possible that they are really struggling to afford the lessons but don't want to let on.

I tend to agree with you. I've seen people trying to barter, haggle, and negotiate for more of everything these days. Money is tight, and they're trying to do what they can to avoid lowering their standard of living too much.

For example, years ago it was impossible to find kids willing to shovel snow out of my driveway to earn money or do any of the typical work I did as a kid to get spending money. Now they're all coming to my door asking if they can walk my dogs, mow the lawn, clean the gutters (btw: what parent would let their kid up on a high ladder? but that's beside the point), clean and treat the deck. It goes on.

Parents may have heard that sometimes kids can work off lessons or earn extra ride time, so they're trying to see if they can get in on that.

IronwoodFarm

Jun. 22, 2009, 06:00 PM

I have an easy answer for that -- my insurance does not cover employees under age 18.

Chief2

Jun. 22, 2009, 06:01 PM

Interesting thread. I thought everyone was dying for help. I guess not.

I am somewhere between HenryIsBlazin and Analise.

HenryIsBlazin is dead on with the observations.
I see many homes of my students and hear what is going on. There are job losses and concessions going on that they don't even want the neighbors to know about, so unless someone is really honest and above board, you may never hear about the wife who got laid off from the newspaper and now runs a lunch shift at the local restaurant. Or the engineer whom you never see outside anymore because he is too embarassed to let anyone know that he is out of a job and feels like a failure as a provider. You won't hear any of this. They'll just smile, drive the same vehicleto keep up appearances (or because it is almost paid for anyway), and ask for barter or whatever. Being polite in turning them down is a kindness.

Our barn has set rules for kids helping at the barn. The minimum age is 12. The only time they are asked to muck stalls is on the weekends, and they work in teams with older kids. If they are on one of the part time opening or closing shifts, they are allowed to have an adult help them complete their tasks. No child is paid in cash. They receive the amount in a credit that can be applied to their lessons, boarding, or show fees. Work is expected to be completed correctly, and the barn left in good order. There are several parents who have helped their 12 year olds in their chores, and that worked out just fine. The barn is too big for them to do this alone, and we want adult supervision for them for safety.

If you don't want to do this, then in this economy you'll probably find yourself repeating the 'no, thank you' phrase. If you do, I would set real ground rules on who is old enough to help, who is not, and what is expected of them when they do. Just so you understand, I agree that I would not 'hire' a ten year old to muck out stalls or handle horses. They are too young, and the job can get too dangerous.

Laytian

Jun. 22, 2009, 06:02 PM

I have given the canned repsponse and the samepeople still keep trying. That is why it is seems difficult.

[SNIP]

It was ok when the attorney was asking to barter 10 year old child labor, but when when I suggested that some legal work could be done instead, it was turned down.

I also don't mind helping the kid that really needs help with this and actually wants to learn. But crediting these kids at $10.00/hr is nuts.

ALso I said at thte beginning it was a rant.

If you're tired of being ASKED repeatedly, then perhaps you could put up a sign or add a note to the contract page that addresses the issue.

Something like: All lessons must be paid in full, no barn work for lessons arrangements are available.

Or: We do not have any current openings for employees and do not barter barn work for lessons.

Barter for lessons? Will accept professional legal services/licensed electrician's services/(fill in the blank) ONLY in exchange for lessons. Barn assistance not required.

A *humorous* sign, if you can think of appropriate wording, might be the best way to get the point across.

Want to barter your kid's sweat equity for lessons? Sure! But ONLY if your kid is a (fill in the blank) -- legal professional/licensed electrician/ETC. :D

Kid, you want to work off the cost of your lessons? Sure, but come back when you're at least 15 years old, and *fully trained* in basic safety around horses/barns, horse care, mucking out stalls, grooming, cleaning tack, properly tacking and untacking, (add in twenty more skills...), THEN we'll talk. ;)

Very lame, but you get the idea. :cool:

You can always make a case-by-case except for the kids that really *need* AND *deserve* a bit of help, as you noted above -- just don't credit them at $10 an hour! Work out something more appropriate -- maybe a free group lesson for a day's worth of work or whatever.

Chall

Jun. 22, 2009, 06:05 PM

Well, if you have enough chores that are safe for kids to do, and quantitative I could see it working out for you, without impacting the boarders or you.

For example: even little kids can collect rocks out of arena. And you can pay them by the rock, or the weight of the rocks. That would work here in New England where there are endless rocks.
Painting standards/jumps is another job for older ones.

And I would definitely look into bartering, with the parents!. Certified Electricians, plumbers, landscapers, construction workers, can all be useful. Lawyers are useful for back board pay situations or writing up leases.
Be aware though, that bartering is taxable. Many people aren't aware of that.

Sandy M

Jun. 22, 2009, 06:57 PM

When I was 9 or 10, I got my first riding lessons. For me, the big deal was to be allowed to saddle and bridle, or cool out horses. Never expected to be paid or get anything in exchange. Used my allowance to pay for the lesson ($3.50 for group lesson!!), took the bus to the stable (in San Francisco). The result was....I got a little extra riding time for walking the "hots". Once in a while. If they noticed me sitting there when I was done, a teacher whowas schooling a horse might say, "Here, come on and ride Maggie for a few minutes...". That's it. And that was in the '50s, when no one really thought that much about liability beyond not overmounting beginners. "No, you're not ready to ride Freckles yet."

Ride2Dreams

Jun. 22, 2009, 07:36 PM

I have been unable to read the whole thread on this. While now I am an adult, as a child I was one of those who worked off my board. I took riding lessons as a paid customer from the age of 9 to the age of 15. When I turned 15 my family came into financial difficulties and I had to work off my lesson. I personally approached the barn owner and told her of my situation and she knew me, knew my horsemanship and trusted me. I worked for lessons from the age of 15 to the age of 18 and I worked to the bone. I came to the barn Saturday morning at 6am to feed, prepare dinner then get ready for my lesson. After the lesson had a bit of breathing room then went around watering all 46 horses in two barns and various outside stalls where you had to lug the buckets as the hose did not reach. Would then administer any medications, treat thrush cases (we had alot of those due to the climate), soak feet, cold hose legs, sweep barns, rake pathways, turn horses in and out and various other duties which changed depending on the cases. For two months straight it was wrapping a pony's hoof in diapers due to an injury, then was working with a percheron who has shoe boil operation. Then show up on Sunday and mix and repeat without the lesson. The only thing I DIDN'T do was clean stalls. This was for one private lesson a week but it had it's perks. We got to take the ponies who weren't used in a lesson that day down to the field in a halter and lead shank (I fell off those ponies more then the horses). If it was slow we got to school some of the lesson horses who were not used for the day. We learnt to drive the percheron and this teenie little hackney pony. We got to hold a Halloween party complete with a haunted basement. I loved it and was honored to have the opportunity to learn as much as I did and work off my lessons for so long. I believe having young responsable kids work for the lessons to be a crutial part of this business as it is the best hands on learning you can do.

That said I am also of the mind that I earned the right to work off my lessons. I was there for five years before I started to work my board off. I took the time learning to ride and having the owner, trainers and other staff to know me. As someone who was honored with the opportunity to work off my lessons I personally am offended by those who call, have no experience with the barn in question and look for a handout. Working off your lessons is a privilage and shouldn't be taken advantage of. I can understand this barn owner's problem with being asked by so many people. They do not ride at her barn, she does not know them and it is presumptuous to think they can be trusted.

littleum

Jun. 22, 2009, 08:13 PM

I see both sides of the argument. :\

On one hand, I was one of those horse crazy "barn rats" with parents who couldn't afford even a $30 lesson every 2 weeks. I stumbled upon a local woman who opened her barn & home to me. I can't even begin to tell you how much I learned in those years, horse and otherwise. We still see each other at Nationals most years.

On the other hand, I fully sympathize that the OP has real costs. Can't pay taxes with a ham! And I understand that parents these days are probably looking for a way to reduce costs, but it's also pretty telling when one parent won't trade their expertise for hers! With summer here I also bet it has to do with "I don't want the kids sitting around the house all day" too.

HorsesinHaiti

Jun. 22, 2009, 08:56 PM

I was briefly a working student type at the county park's barn, when I was 14. That was AFTER I had completed a three-week, 5 day a week camp in horsekeeping and riding, at the send of a couple years of weekly lessons. County finances were tight and the barn crew knew us well, so they made an exception.

Until of course the park administration found out and reminded them the liability rules outside of day camp said 16 years or older only - so I wasn't allowed to work with the horses after that. Looking back on it now, I really wasn't supervised enough to learn all the little details that came up, because they were short-handed in the first place!

I have to agree with the people saying under 15 is generally too young to be truely useful. Kids with enough experience aren't generally the ones whose parents need to barter for weekly lessons on schoolies.

Casey09

Jun. 22, 2009, 09:11 PM

I can understand what the OP is saying. A lot of barns do have students who work at the barn - and I actually have seen several parents who work with their kids (though not 10 year olds) on weekends.
However, just from an economic standpoint, it is also obvious that if there isn't really any work that needs to be done (and that the child can do), then it doesn't make economic sense to allow the child to work off expenses. If someone is operating a business as a barn owner, we can all understand that they have to watch their expenses - and that means they have to watch what they are paying people - by barter or otherwise - in exchange for services. They may not be able to operate the business profitably if they are paying people to do things that they can't afford to pay people to do.
It is unfortunate that not everyone can afford lessons, but the business is going to fail if too many people are working off their lessons. At some point, we all need cash. If there is a service that you really need and would be paying for anyway, then bartering might make sense - although it can go "bad" in many, many ways. I think that Laytian's idea is a good one - if it's there in the barn rules or paperwork, people will know (or should know) what is acceptable bartering and what you just are not able and or willing to do.
If parents want to teach their kids the value of work, then they can have their kids help them around the house in exchange for their lessons! There is more than one way to teach kids how to earn something.

HardHeadedHanna

Jun. 22, 2009, 09:22 PM

OP, when you say 'affluent', and anyone else on here who has used the word 'affluent', how much would you say the median household income is of these kids' families?

Kate66

Jun. 22, 2009, 09:51 PM

Heck I would barter for anything I could! I was brought up with the mantra of "if you don't ask you don't get!", not "those who ask don't get!". I am perfectly happy to be told no, but I would generally ask to get a discount on anything, anywhere!

baymare

Jun. 22, 2009, 10:10 PM

A few weeks ago I had a parent inquire if his SIX YEAR OLD could come and "work" for an HOUR before her lesson. He was kind enough to say I "wouldn't have to pay her" (!!!!!) but that he wanted her to realize how much work was involved, etc. etc.

I have a very small operation, and am my own barn help most of the time. My few "working students" are kids who have ridden with me for years, taken multiple "horsemanship camps", and are competent, mature young people who know exactly how I want things done. I love them dearly and am constantly putting work and effort into building my next generation as they grow up and go to college or get "real" jobs or whatever. Even so it took me quite a while to calm down enough to write a polite and diplomatic reply to this parent that "supervising and instructing such a young child in stable management skills was every bit as time-consuming and potentially risky as the riding lesson itself" or words to that effect.

So SEP, I definitely hear ya.

Whisper

Jun. 22, 2009, 10:34 PM

I was fortunate to be able to do "will muck for rides" when I was a kid, and a friend of mine currently lets me ride several horses. I do help pick out paddocks, feed, etc. as needed, but it probably comes out to about 20 minutes of work for 2 hours of riding. I *know* I'm very fortunate, though, and I certainly wouldn't *expect* that from anyone.

Linny

Jun. 22, 2009, 10:39 PM

I agree that it is possible that these families have seen a reduction in their income and/or net wealth in the recent poor economy. Mom may still have the Escalade but they can't really afoord the gas but can't sell it because...gas prices are high.
They hate to tell Suzie that she cannot take lessons any more until Dad finds a good job so they barter. The problem is that Susie has no skills you need. Mom ought to offer his bookkeeping or web design skills. It doesn't teach the child "a lesson" but it lkeeps them in the saddle.
People for whom riding is recreation (esp non riding parents) tend to forget (with no malice) that for the BO riding is a business. It's how you feed your family. They don't mean to insult you, they just think of riding as "hobby" and not as "real work."
I guess I'd just try to nicely remind the parents that I have a solid and professional staff. I cannot employ children because of the risks and that unless I get paid in full, in cash for my lessons, I cannot continue to operate a lesson barn. The feedman, power company, farrier and tax collector don't care that my buckets are spotless and aisles are swept. They want cash.

Cita

Jun. 22, 2009, 10:50 PM

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but what about ground lessons? You can say you would be happy to teach Little Poopsie about the work involved in horseback riding - Poopsie can have as many of his/her lessons on ground work and general horse care as he/she wants! Lessons can include learning how to muck, how to bandage, how to groom...

I know it's not the "fun" part, but you would still be teaching valuable skills! If their parents are really in it to "teach them how much work is involved in horses," seems like horsemanship lessons would be a great way to go...

ayrabz

Jun. 23, 2009, 12:10 AM

In the past I'VE been the one, when she was 9-10 yrs old that would work for the BO for her lessons....but that is TOO young for that to be the child's responsibility. She's learned and grown up since, and has, at age appropriate done this as well. I've NEVER understood the mentality of a parent who 'drops the kid off' at the barn and isn't around while that young child is learning to ride....even worse, the ones who would drop them off at a horse show, and dissapear. I vowed if my kid came off, it would be MY face she'd see leaning over her while she was scared and hurt on the ground, or heading to the hospital.
I'd suggest to the parents pushing you for this that you'd be perfectly happy for the PARENT to work off the lessons, and that if they wanted to include their child alongside them to learn about the work, and or the value of it, fine.

feed lady65

Jun. 23, 2009, 01:21 AM

.

I also don't mind helping the kid that really needs help with this and actually wants to learn. But crediting these kids at $10.00/hr is nuts.

.

I'm in my 40s with at least 15 years of off/on experience and I don't even make $10/hr. I don't pay my 14 year old at all for helping me out because I don't think he needs to learn to expect to be paid for everything.

Anybody who wants to pay me $10/hr PM me!:D

PiaffePlease

Jun. 23, 2009, 01:33 AM

They want their kids to work off lessons so they dont have to pay. My parents could afford lessons, but didnt want to pay. I started working off lessons when I was 15, but I cleaned stalls, unloaded hay, scrubbed buckets, and all the dirty work.

I would tell them that their child doesnt have enough horse skills to work at your barn.

jetsmom

Jun. 23, 2009, 01:43 AM

Tell the parents that little 12 yr old Susie can help clean Sheaths, and explain to the Dad, what that entails. Then see how fast he withdraws the offer!

nightsong

Jun. 23, 2009, 04:50 AM

How is a business employing people under 15 (or whatever the applicable labor laws are) even LEGAL???

slc2

Jun. 23, 2009, 07:07 AM

As a friend of mine used to say, 'Clearly they are not terrified enough of you', LOL.

But the point is that if 'everyone' views your business as a casual, 'drop by any time' sort of affair, and you as their very casual, accomodating pal, they will feel very free to get you to take care of their kids for a couple hours. Never mind that the kid probably doesn't do a lick of chores at home for his allowance...LOL...making 'teaching the kid responsibility' someone else's problem is an easy thing to do.

I do believe there is provision in the law for younger folks to work at a family farm for an allowance or the like, but not someone else's farm. I think that as of age 14 or 16, youngsters are allowed to do agricultural work for pay, in some states, but having kids working for you is a legal and litigation nightmare.

Most parents are considerate, and understand the stable is a well run business. But a few are not quite that considerate. I think clients want younger kids to 'work off' lessons for a number of reasons.

I think first, they don't really view stables as businesses. It's just a farm, and doesn't require any real skill or knowledge to work there. Secondly, they want people to think that they aren't being 'soft' on the kids and giving them elite stuff for free. Third, most kids would be ecstatic to stay at the stable longer than just a brief riding lesson once a week; the parent doesn't want to sit in the car every day for 30 min longer, or have to drive the kid back and forth for more frequent lessons, so it becomes easier to just drop the kid off and come back much later. Fourth, riding lessons are expensive.

To not have parents asking if they can drop the kid off, the solution is very simple.

Post your barn rules in a prominent place where parents gather. 1. Due to insurance and legal restrictions, minors cannot 'work off' all or part of riding lessons. 2. Due to insurance and legal restrictions, the parent or guardian of a minor must be on the property during the riding lesson.

This will stop the parent who chronically 'runs out for an errand' and comes back four hours after the lesson ended, apologizing profusely. And it may help to reduce some of your liability and problems. Let's say a child has a seizure or asthma attack, or cuts himself, while the parent is gone, and the parent comes back and has a fit at how you handled it.

In today's litigious society, I'd be terrified to have one or more kids 'hanging around' the stable interacting with large farm animals, machinery and my pets. It frankly sounds like a recipe for disaster. I think that if it went to court, and you had a bunch of undersupervised children hanging around, bad for you, and any lawyer could prove they were 'undersupervised' if someone watching them ran to the restroom for a quick pee, believe it.

Another thing I would do, is work hard to impress your customers that you have a very well run professional business. Keep a friendly but professional arrangement with customers, and don't have it be 'a hobby when you want a day off, and a business when you want to get paid', keep a professional looking routine and avoid comments about 'drop by any time' etc.

People who DO work at the stable can wear color t shirts with the stable name and 'Staff' on the t-shirt. Make it clear who works there.

If customers see employees and their relatives and your children 'hanging around' doing nothing, they tend to assume it's a very casual arrangement where the kid can be dumped off.

Too, it's a little bit natural to assume, that if they see OTHER kids cleaning stalls, tacking up horses and working, that it would be fine for their kid to do the same.

Of course the other thing to consider, is what Therapeutic riding stables often do, they have volunteers, and they train them. You might consider suggesting to parents that they send their kid to volunteer at a local Therapeutic riding stable. If the kid can successfully complete a decent orientation for volunteers at a nationally certified and inspected therapeutic riding school, maybe he or she actually could be useful at your barn.

It's not impossible to have a kid volunteer, but I would be EXTREMELY careful about allowing them to 'work off lessons', which sounds like breaking a state law against child labor. Money doesn't have to change hands, exchanges like that that have value are breaking the law still.

And if the kid honestly, really just wants more stable time, volunteering at a therapeutic riding stable may be the best way to handle it long term.

rileyt

Jun. 23, 2009, 09:48 AM

A barn that I taught at for a number of years had a very successful working student program... but for the jr. high/high school set. There was an age minimum (I think it was 12?), but it was a competitive program. The barn had a very large lesson program, and parents would ask, "can my child be a working student?" -- the owner's response was always the same, "our program is very competitive, and we only take 10 students per semester." She had kids fighting to be in the program, and basically they worked for almost free. The kids mucked, fed, watered, groomed, painted jumps, swept etc. In return, they got an assistant barn manager who did mini-lectures and instructed them on various things (wrapping, feed, etc.). The ones who had been there long enough, were mature enough, and good enough learned basic medical care, got to help with babies, occasionally got to ride, and even got mini-lessons on occasion.

Kids who didn't show up, or showed up and wanted to sit around got kicked out very early. The owner would simply say, Ashley is not quite ready for the working student program. She's free to reapply next year. Despite the hard work and little reward, she always had a SLEW of kids who wanted into the program.

I get that it can be annoying getting asked this on a daily basis, but if you don't want working students, just say no. And respectfully, parents ask this of horse people for a good reason -- there is a LOT of work to be done around barns, and a lot of it is neither skilled, nor particularly physically difficult (e.g., cold hosing a leg, sweeping an aisle, filling water buckets). (To be sure, some of it is VERY skilled, or very physically difficult). Lots of barn owners RELY on "barn brats" to run their business. You certainly don't need to, but I think its different than a parent asking their accountant or even their auto mechanic if their child could work for him.

equineartworks

Jun. 23, 2009, 10:12 AM

As a broke parent of a horse crazy child I sympathize a tiny bit with the parents, however, the fact of the matter is that horses are not a cheap adventure. Suck it up and pay up if you want to play the game.

What I suggest is this, and I have proof in the form of several well rounded young people that it works.

Have the kids (provided they are old enough) volunteer with a local equine therapy program for a certain number of hours each month. Then "trade" some of that time for a group lesson session each month. Say they volunteer 10 hours for the month, they get an hour group lesson that month. That translates into one hour of your time for the lesson rather than all the nonsense it takes to try to translate barn help into private lessons.

The message it sends to the parents is that riding and horsemanship is a give and take thing. You have to give to get! The kids learn first hand what it means to give back, they learn very valuable team building and communication skills and they learn good solid horsemanship while helping a stable in need.

What you get is some potentially wonderful working students! It helps you divide the barn brats from the barn stars and you might find an up and coming assistant too. The kids and parents will be less likely to ask for free lessons if they understand what is involved, and since the parents will be involved too (it requires extra time on their part!) they begin to realize that you too have value, that it isn't a little fun thing you do to make you happy...but that it is a business with responsibilities and expenses.

Ghazzu

Jun. 23, 2009, 10:13 AM

A barn that I taught at for a number of years had a very successful working student program...

This sounds like a fantastic setup for those interested. Sort of in the Tom Sawyer's fence whitewashing category...

Jaideux

Jun. 23, 2009, 10:24 AM

If you have the awesome setup to be able to afford to hire enough professional staff, and enough time yourself, to not have any work left to be done, all the power to you. But around here, pretty much every. single. lesson barn. has a "working student" program- and I'm talking around 10 or so lesson barns of varied sizes and grandeur! It keeps the costs down, and creates a personal investment in the barn the person rides at!

If you do have a need for small chores, and do want to let the truly motivated help, consider this:
1- parents have to stay with their kids, for liability sake, at least until an approved time. You'll weed out the "life lessoners" with the "free babysitters".

2- To work with horses, kids will have to do an unpaid internship where they follow around staff to learn the ropes for at least x sessions, or until they are "signed off" on necessary skills. Once you get a few older kids who can do this, you'll have a self-sustaining model that won't take up you or your pro staff time too much, except for the occasional tweak.

3- Kids who aren't big enough, strong enough, smart enough, whatever enough to do things like mucking/tacking/etc can be given small tasks like rock picking, tack cleaning, aisle sweeping, grooming supply cleaning, etc.

My barn has a program like this. There are usually 3 people cleaning stalls (usually the dedicated boarders, or frequent lessoners, as it pays the most), and then one or two helpers. Helpers bring in lesson horses about 30 minutes before each lesson. They groom and tack for the littlest kids, assist with the older/new kids, and only help the oldest ones if they are in a random time pinch. During the down time (there isn't a ton of prep, as each lesson has a max of 5 horses), there is a list of little chores to be done, such as de-cobwebbing, rinsing the wash stall, or some specific little thing that the BO noticed needs to be done. Now, these are all done during the after school hours, which are also lesson hours. This way, the trainer is around in case there is a question or an emergency, and she is also able to conveniently remember a few more chores if there is down time. The barn owner is also on the property, and does the evening feed and rides herself, so she is able to put her 2 cents in if someone isn't up to snuff or missed something. The trainer also does a final check before letting the helpers go for the night. And honestly, no one is given a job that could ruin or damage anything if it goes unnoticed for a night (or even two), unless they are very trustworthy.

But how are and of your kids going to learn and become useful people if none of them have any opportunity?

(BTW, the kids at my barn don't get paid much. I used to clean stalls, and made $15 on an 18-stall barn. I can't imagine anyone is getting paid more than $10-15 for an afternoon's worth of work, and it is only work they have proven themselves to be capable in, and usually only for the lesosn program. Pretty much the only people who touch a boarder horse or it's care is the 1.5 stall cleaners doing boarder stalls (who are usually boarders themselves), the people doing turn in, and the BOs junior rider daughter who feeds at night).

Coreene

Jun. 23, 2009, 10:51 AM

Just. Say. No.

goldponies

Jun. 23, 2009, 01:13 PM

We just tell the parents that our insurance doesn't let us. Simple.

Trixie

Jun. 23, 2009, 02:28 PM

But how are and of your kids going to learn and become useful people if none of them have any opportunity?

Because it's not the OP's job to teach the children to become "useful people."

It's only her job to teach them how to ride.

She can do the rest if she is inclined, but she is not obligated.

fordtraktor

Jun. 23, 2009, 02:49 PM

This sounds like a fantastic setup for those interested. Sort of in the Tom Sawyer's fence whitewashing category...

These kids' labor is generally not worth a penny until they learn something about horses, and the only way to learn about horses is to get experience -- often years of experience. This is no different than the gazillion unpaid internships I see kids of all ages, including college and post-grad, happily signing up for. In fact, it is probably more useful because they are learning something more than how to operate a copy machine.

Ambrey

Jun. 23, 2009, 03:03 PM

.

If you thoroghly read the post you will see that I wanted to say those snarky things. I didn't say them.

No, you said

One parent was actually shocked when I asked if they thought I should go to the mortgage company and ask to do filing or whatever to help work off my mortgage, because I didn't have the cash flow from the business because I gave every one that asked me a break.

Times are hard. People want their kids to have lessons but can't afford them. It seems like "sorry, I don't have any openings for barn help" would be sufficient, even if you have to keep saying it.

EventerAJ

Jun. 23, 2009, 10:59 PM

I agree with Jaideux.

I grew up as a barn rat. I was the 11-year-old dropped off at the barn, hung out all day, absorbing as much as I possibly could. I didn't get paid a dime, but the what I learned was priceless. I tagged along when horses were turned out, fed, watered, etc. I was allowed to bring in or turn out the easy horses. I helped at feeding time, with supervision. I never got into trouble, and I tried very hard to be a help, not a hindrance.

I began working off board when I was 14, after three summers of "unofficial" work/training. I was a full member of the working team, though at very low wages. By then I was confidently leading two horses at a time, feeding, holding for the vet/farrier, and haying by myself. I knew each one of the 60 horses on the farm, memorized what they ate, knew their individual owners, habits, and quirks. To my knowledge, no boarder had a problem with me (at 14-15) taking care of his/her horse... several of them paid me extra to ride or look after "Nappy" when they were out of town.

Fast forward to now. I spent several summers running a working student program; some of it really was organized, underpaid baby-sitting. Some of it really was an excellent opportunity to teach HORSEMANSHIP to those who really, really wanted to learn. Some came with an attitude, and left with a hearty work ethic. Others just left early. :winkgrin:

I have also dealt with some younger students (10-13) who are not "barn rats"... the classic Parent Wants Kid To "Learn/Work," but Kid Has No Clue. The situation where child kinda wants to do the fun things, but EVERYTHING takes you twice as long to explain and finish the task. But if you take the time, after a couple days the (good) kids actually DO learn something, and can be helpful. Tack cleaning, for instance. Yes, it takes an hour to teach them bridle parts, how to take it apart, and clean it, condition it, and put it back together. A task I can do in 5 minutes. But, the next day, I can throw 3 bridles at them, and they will have them done in 15 minutes. (Perfectly spotlessly clean? Maybe not. A small twist in a noseband? Possibly. BUT, three schooling bridles *I* don't have to clean!) They can bring in their own school horses, brush them, tack them, wash them, and turn them out. They can clean water buckets. They can rake straw. All suitable tasks, without life-or-death consequence. In return for my extra effort with them, Parents were happy to compensate me for my time. Barn owner may have tossed a little extra bonus in for the kids' hard work, but Parents rewarded them too.

Want to weed out the kids? Give them the nasty jobs... cleaning out the drain, picking paddocks, picking rocks/weeds-- minor things you may not have time for, that are NOT fun. It *will* teach them hard work (what Parents wanted, right?) or if their heart isn't in it, they'll complain enough to Parents and do the convincing for you. ;)

ESG

Jun. 23, 2009, 11:15 PM

I've got news for you - it's not just the parents who want their kids to work off lessons. I had a beginner adult rider (as in, barely able to tack up on her own, and strictly W/T, with no experience as a child rider) whose husband wanted her to come out and "help you train the horses". When I told him that I needed someone to muck, clean water buckets and groom, his response was, "Oh, she doesn't need to do that. I mean, it's not like we can't afford for her to ride; she doesn't have to shovel shit." Yet, he wanted his totally clueless wife (not that she wasn't a really cool person, just a total beginner) to longe, ride, and "help train" my show horses and greenies.

Um, no.

They didn't last long, after I read him the riot act when he really pushed the issue. :no:

Plumcreek

Jun. 23, 2009, 11:41 PM

Do these affluent parents have a job that they would barter one hour for your one hour lesson? Like a doctor or lawyer, accountant?

nightsong

Jun. 24, 2009, 02:22 AM

Just say "I don't have any job openings now." This gets across that this is a BUSINESS, not mowing the neighbr's lawn.

Jaideux

Jun. 24, 2009, 03:08 AM

Because it's not the OP's job to teach the children to become "useful people."

It's only her job to teach them how to ride.

She can do the rest if she is inclined, but she is not obligated.

You are totally right. The contract she has with these people is to provide riding instruction only. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

But... I think we can all agree that there is a lot more to equestrian life than only being competent in the saddle. What is she going to do with these people if they ever want to buy a horse? Will she say "no, you can't have a horse (and keep it here) because you have no idea how to operate around one out of the saddle"? Will she say, "sure, become a boarder and give me a daily headache as you fumble, probably dangerously, through the things that I take for granted knowing?"

Actually, I really am curious, and maybe should start a new thread: for those of you who don't have a working student/internship/shadowing program in place, how do you cultivate kids to be more than just riders? I doubt I could have done it without my barn chore routine, but then again, I don't know of any other ways, so share! For those of you who rode in places where they didn't offer this kind of... enrichment?... how did you develop the skills necessary to become an autonomous boarder/leasor?

Though I would value someone who is comitted to quality instruction and care, like the OP certainly seems to be, I would not want my kid there for too long, especially if they were serious about wanting to be more than just a rider, as so many kids *think* they are.

And I would be 100% okay with my kid scrubbing tack, sweeping aisles, and picking rocks. Heck, if they're old enough, make 'em clean the bathroom. I don't care. Make 'em groom an extra horse after their lesson is over- perhaps Dobbin wasn't used that day and is a bit muddy from the pasture. If they do a good job grooming, perhaps next week they can organize brushes. Little tasks.

But I guess maybe I'm still assuming that these kids and their parents ARE just like me (and probably you): serious about horses, taking care of them, and wanting to be as informed as I can so I can be as useful as I can- to my horse, to my trainer/BO/vet, and to my wallet! I love saving that $50 day fee because I can actually prep my own horse the day before the show! And I love saving a daily farm call because I can change a dressing and cold-hose and evaluate for (at least mild) lameness in recouperation. And I love that I can actually return all the kindness and generous knowledge my trainers and BOs have shared with me by being capable of helping them in a pinch: I can toss grain, I can bring in, I can muck out a stall. Those were very useful skills one weekend when my BO got hurt loading a horse at a show and everyone was stuck there until they were able to arrange for getting home- I was around and could do the night chores.

All the power to you, OP. If it isn't something you want to do, the liability answer is a fabulous way to go. I suppose, though, if the parents offer to pay the extra premium on your insurance so the kid can work... you'd be crazy not to work something out, hahaha!

... but $10/hr? Seriously? I remember being thrilled that I could get anything at all... getting $15 for sometimes 2-3 hours of work was amazing when I was that age... not like McDonalds was hiring 14 year olds, haha!

mvp

Jun. 24, 2009, 07:51 AM

I suppose the OP had a bad weekend, but I'm surprised by the underlying rancor toward other people and their kids. Everyone, it seems, is trying to get something for nothing and now that includes opportunities to work at a barn.

I do agree that it's a PITA to teach people to clean stalls, scrub buckets, clean tack, but someone taught us, right?

I also think its tough to watch apparently wealthy people *still* want to get more for less. You may be surprised at how cash poor/house-car-toys rich these people are. It's not your problem, but that might explain the rash of them showing up with the propositions right now.

Or they might be having that 4am oh sh!t moment when they realize that they have not installed a decent work ethic in their kid and now they're casting around for a solution.

So pick and choose your slave children. Hand them a pitchfork. Any kid or parent who turns up his/her nose doesn't get the job. I can't imagine that cleaning a stall is such precision work that a kid of 10 or more can't be taught and then left to do some work.

I'm only writing this because it seems to me that we all want skilled, hard-working people in the horse world, but then suddenly want no part of making them. Had people not let me be the hardworking barn rat, I would have been SOL. And momma had *nothing* to do with finding me a job or negotiating its terms.

Jsalem

Jun. 24, 2009, 08:06 AM

I know it seems like a paradox. "Job Training" is one thing- babysitting is another. BO's can't say, "okay, thanks, see you tomorrow," and have the kid leave. Oftentimes, the child is dropped off for hours with no ride home. Let's face it, supervising a 10 year old leaves the BO open to liability.

Years ago, I hired a young neighborhood boy to muck stalls at my farm. The very first day, the very first hour, he "twisted his ankle". Not only did I end up mucking myself, but his daddy presented me with the doctor's bill. Nice.

I'm very, very selective about who I allow to "help." That goes for hiring to do chores as well as allowing to ride extra horses. I don't use the over-scheduled kids that blow in 4 days a week between school functions, social functions, etc. They have an extra 30 minutes and want to ride an extra one. That just doesn't help me. I don't use the real social kids that spend their extra barn time running around giggling with their friends. I do use the quiet, serious kids that spend hours grooming their own horse. I use the kids that are independent from their parents. I use the kids that are at the barn all the time and aren't constantly running off to do something else. Basically, I use the kids that I know I can count on to help me. The kids that will ride anything- and thank me for it. The kids that will take the time to treat scratches, thrush on a school horse. The kids that clean up the wash rack without my asking. The kids who don't have parents that are more ambitious than they are.

When those kids approach me to work- those kids I can use.

MistyBlue

Jun. 24, 2009, 08:06 AM

Times have also changed since many of us were kids.
I started cleaning stalls, grooming and cleaning tack at the age of 9. Dropped off at the barn for the day to get work done. Compensation was at the end of each full day of work; we got to go pick a horse off the trail string and ride for an hour for free. Not that we knew how to ride very well and nobody gave us much of any pointers other than "Try not to fall off and don't get lost." :lol: :eek: :lol:
In this day and age..no way, nuh uh. BOs can't allow that, parents wouldn't condone that, attorneys would be having a field day with that.
Our parents didn't care any more than we did that we were free child labor, by the age of 12 we had to go help with the haying. Ever hay all day in hot weather as a 12 year old? Lets just say we rarely took our free rides those days, too tired and sore and scratched up.
Our parents also didn't have a fit if we came off a horse that we weren't sure how to ride. If we came limping back to the barn leading the horse the BO and the parent said the same thing, "Next time hold on better." If we came back without the horse we were sent back out to find it, LOL!
Now today would I allow a 10 year old to come work around the horses in my barn? No, something tells me that 10 year old gets a splinter and Mom and Dad would own my place pretty darned quick. Not to mention that I would have to keep an eagle eye on the child, kids that age today are rarely allowed to be unsupervised and don't have much self discipline yet. Not to mention my insurance agent would likely drive to my house and smack me in the head. :winkgrin:
I don't see an issue with 15 or older doing barn work in exchange for riding or lessons. Younger than that...nope. Too much liability on the BO, too many possibilities for the child's parents' attorney. Times have changed.
And if the BO cannot use another free barn hand...the BO is not in any way obligated to take one on to help the parents out financially or by teaching a work ethic. The parents can get the kid a job at home or somewhere else. A BO shouldn't have to invent positions that cut into their own pitiful incomes for parents who were too lax in teaching a work ethic and too lazy to find creative ways to teach it now other than having someone else do it for them.

trubandloki

Jun. 24, 2009, 08:08 AM

saultgirl

Jun. 24, 2009, 08:13 AM

I would say something like "I'm sorry, I have everything covered by my staff right now, but if something comes up I'll let you know." That would keep your options open in the event you did NEED some kids to help with a job -- at 10 years old you would be very limited, but a big 11 or 12 year old could be helpful for jobs like picking up rocks in the arena, unloading hay, painting a fence, pulling weeds, sweeping cobwebs.

Jaideux

Jun. 24, 2009, 08:13 AM

The OP did not say anything about not hiring people. It was simply stated that they were not willing to pay a young child $10 to do chores.

There is a HUGE difference.

You're right- but my personal interpretation, given the OPs tone and lack of "no, I won't pay Suzie $10/hr, but I will let her do work for free, or take $20 off your monthly bill if she works an hour each week after her lesson", was that she just wasn't interested in kids or adults working off costs. It sounds like she wants/needs full lesson prices to cover the costs of her barn (which is obviously the responsible thing to do, when you run a place with pro staff already in place to handle all the work so you can pay them).

Artful

Jun. 24, 2009, 09:51 AM

Next time a parent asks, tell them that perhaps you would consder it, but any child under 15 will have to be accompanied by a parent (who will have to supervise their child during the entire "work time").

Oh, and they'll have to pay for a series of horsemanship classes first, to insure that little snookims has an understanding of the work involved, AND the proper (and safe) way of doing it. After all, you do have a contract with your boarders for a certain level of care for their horses.

Explain that, due to the nature of your business, you simply can't properly supervise young children while you are completing other tasks that demand your total attention (lessons, training, etc..). That'll weed out the ones who are looking for free day care.

Susan P

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:10 AM

As a parent of a kid who watch all the kids who didn't own their own horse working off their lessons while I paid and paid for lessons, board, etc. and I would guess my son was probably about the same age and could clean stalls, that I found it a bit unfair to reject his work for their work. They only paid a small amount of money for lessons compared to our bill and I got tired of hearing the once a week lesson parents complain about the bill.

I do like this as a response. Most of those kids who worked off their lessons never had their parents around and I was always around and watched my kid.

Next time a parent asks, tell them that perhaps you would consder it, but any child under 15 will have to be accompanied by a parent (who will have to supervise their child during the entire "work time").

Oh, and they'll have to pay for a series of horsemanship classes first, to insure that little snookims has an understanding of the work involved, AND the proper (and safe) way of doing it. After all, you do have a contract with your boarders for a certain level of care for their horses.

Explain that, due to the nature of your business, you simply can't properly supervise young children while you are completing other tasks that demand your total attention (lessons, training, etc..). That'll weed out the ones who are looking for free day care.

Susan P

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:19 AM

I think this is a very professional way to do this, I like it. I think they might also have an application for to apply to be a working student just to add to the seriousness of it and maybe have the kid write a letter say why they wanted to be a working student so they are clearly interested and it's not just the parents filling out an application. I would also require proof of health insurance and a liability waiver to be filled out.

A barn that I taught at for a number of years had a very successful working student program... but for the jr. high/high school set. There was an age minimum (I think it was 12?), but it was a competitive program. The barn had a very large lesson program, and parents would ask, "can my child be a working student?" -- the owner's response was always the same, "our program is very competitive, and we only take 10 students per semester." She had kids fighting to be in the program, and basically they worked for almost free. The kids mucked, fed, watered, groomed, painted jumps, swept etc. In return, they got an assistant barn manager who did mini-lectures and instructed them on various things (wrapping, feed, etc.). The ones who had been there long enough, were mature enough, and good enough learned basic medical care, got to help with babies, occasionally got to ride, and even got mini-lessons on occasion.

Kids who didn't show up, or showed up and wanted to sit around got kicked out very early. The owner would simply say, Ashley is not quite ready for the working student program. She's free to reapply next year. Despite the hard work and little reward, she always had a SLEW of kids who wanted into the program.

I get that it can be annoying getting asked this on a daily basis, but if you don't want working students, just say no. And respectfully, parents ask this of horse people for a good reason -- there is a LOT of work to be done around barns, and a lot of it is neither skilled, nor particularly physically difficult (e.g., cold hosing a leg, sweeping an aisle, filling water buckets). (To be sure, some of it is VERY skilled, or very physically difficult). Lots of barn owners RELY on "barn brats" to run their business. You certainly don't need to, but I think its different than a parent asking their accountant or even their auto mechanic if their child could work for him.

SEP

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:44 AM

Thanks for all of the responses.

I already have a working student program, that the students can participate in they can help the younger kids tack up the lesson horses, groom extra lesson horses clean tack, clean the bathroom, pick out certain stalls in the afternoon, organize the trailer, clean the jumps. Most of the kids don't want to do the dirty work and then I spend more time and effort getting them to do it than if I did it myself. Time to put DH in the position of barn rat supervisor.

They have to take one lesson a week and they can ride to practice (supervised) for their work. I can not afford to run the barn with out cash flow.

I have actually let some people work off 2 or 1 lesson a month, when they parent was unemployed etc and usually said suzie will have to quit riding because xyz and mean it. These are also the first people to start paying again when they can.:)

I don't mind teaching the horsemanship stuff as part of or after the lesson, if the kid wants to learn it. Usually the parents want to leave right after the lesson sometimes leaving pony in the cross ties even after I have said the pony needs to be taken care of properly. I just don't think I should have to pay to teach this stuff.:eek:

I totally agree with what MIsty Blue and Jsalem said in their above posts. I was also a barn rat when I was a kid I had my own horse and messed with him all day and any other horse people would let me. Those times were a little less litigous I don't think the BO usually had to worry as much about if Suzies dad the attorney suing them if any thing happens to her on the BO property and or horse.

Also when you go in the local tack store and they counter person asks if you have any clients that won't try to talk them down in price. And complain about the price of a helmet to save there kids head.:mad: I guess I should laugh about it but it does get old after a while. Even when I use the liability issue I am asked if they could sign an extra release, as if that would help.

SEP

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:52 AM

I for got to to thank every one for their suggestions. Some were posted as I was typing my previous response.

I am definately going to use the parent supervision and application etc.

SusanP you are welcome at my barn any time. I give boarders that want to and are capable of help school some of my greenies or reschool the schoolies, and they get a extra lesson for doing this. Because I don't want the boarders to feel they are paying forevery thing and others are ablew to ride for free.

Jaideux

Jun. 24, 2009, 04:39 PM

SEP: sounds like you have a cool set up. I hope I didn't offend you with the assumptions I was making, based on the information provided. I'm really glad kids have a chance to learn the ropes of horsemanship with you :)

JohnDeere

Jun. 24, 2009, 05:41 PM

I admit I havent read all 6 pages but try this for varety...

"Of course Susie/Jimmy can work off lessons. There will be a 1 year aprentiship during which they can come 20 hrs per week to learn the job. THen they can work off lessons".

I betcha no one would EVER take you up on it. :lol:

Vandy

Jun. 24, 2009, 07:48 PM

I haven't read this entire thread, but I am a BO/trainer who does a LOT of barter for lessons. Adults get $12/hour trade, kids get $10/hour, but we're talking about 15 yo and up, either boarders or at least experienced folks who've been riding for years, not 10 year olds. I do have one 10 yo (who has her own pony and is fairly competent on the ground) who "works" for me...but she is not paid a dime, works alongside her 16 year old sister, and is only allowed to "work" when there is a babysitter (paid for by her parents) supervising. I have one 15 yo boarder who I don't consider experienced or responsible enough to work unsupervised - she is allowed to "work" when I or another adult have time to supervise her and is unpaid - her parents give me money to "pay" her.

I think most 15+yo horse owners are capable of cleaning stalls and getting paid for it in cash or trade, as long as there is an adult around should any problems arise. I *love* RileyT's description of the working student program, and wish I had enough young students to be this picky about who gets to work! Most of my students take their "jobs" seriously, but really, I have had so many issues with no-shows or kids who tell me the day before that they can't work the next day, and some days I do depend on them to get the stalls done!

Susan P

Jun. 24, 2009, 11:32 PM

SEP, thanks!

I finally bought my own farm, just 11.8 acres and 5 minutes ride to Fair Hill, MD. I take care of my horses myself now, son has grown up and away from horses but I have a collection plus lots of barn cats too. My first horse passed away at age 36 and he's still there sort of. But now the shoe is on the other foot. I've been asked for people to come and meet and or ride my horse and my older horse is the only one I let a kid get on who wasn't seriously taking lessons and qualified to ride them. I've given free leases to my horses and invite people to meet them and have some hands on but I'm not running a real business, I just rent one of my pastures at the moment, doesn't require handling their horses. But I do like activity at a barn, it's good for the horses and people help with feeding too once they learn what to do.

Mine is just a private and small barn so it's very low key. I do notice that the last thing people want to offer you is MONEY, lol.

I for got to to thank every one for their suggestions. Some were posted as I was typing my previous response.

I am definately going to use the parent supervision and application etc.

SusanP you are welcome at my barn any time. I give boarders that want to and are capable of help school some of my greenies or reschool the schoolies, and they get a extra lesson for doing this. Because I don't want the boarders to feel they are paying forevery thing and others are ablew to ride for free.

findeight

Jun. 25, 2009, 11:23 AM

What my barn has done with these requests in the past is simply require the child (or adult) to be at least 14 and first prove they are able to do the work. Then they have to fill out a time card and get a schedual and show up like any other worker.

I think the credit started at $5 an hour and went to $10 after 6 months-lessons were about $50. They also got a monthly schedual in advance they were expected to adhere to. Most of them could do the math and realize it was alot of work plus it was hard for most of them to keep any kind of promise regarding when they were expected to show up. They stopped showing up because Mumsy could not haul them over, they were "let go".

In other words, treat it like it's a job. Most parents who want to do this are clueless and think the kid can just hang around when they are at the barn anyway. Far as the kids, one stall with pitchfork and wheelbarrow and a trip to the muck dump usually convinces them they really have no idea what the work is like and it takes alot of stalls to work off a single lesson.

Barn has since gone to regular, full and part time adult professional help.

So, for OP, you can deal with this mostly by saying the only help you really need is mucking and barn work and can only credit minimum wage plus they would have to put in a minimum of 15 hours a week over at least 3 days or you can't use them. That should do it.

I think parents and some kids have this vague idea they can ride a few extras and get free lessons for it or that you just sort of wave a shovel around a stall and it is considered clean. If they knew what it entailed, they would not be offering up their 9 year old as a barn hand.

arizona101

Jun. 25, 2009, 05:39 PM

I like the idea of saying the parent has to stay with the child while they work , thus ending the desire for free babysitting.

I really try to avoid the students working off lessons for a variety of reasons. First the younger ones require constant supervision and usually are not physically capable of the task at hand. They lose interest after the first stall or two and then wander off to find something more interesting. Second the parents are often late coming to pick up the kids so I am not only giving them a free lesson but stuck waiting at the barn for Mommy to finish her tennis match and come pick up Suzie.

What I have found that works is giving serious students an occasional task , like straightning up the dressing room on the trailer and scooping out the poop in the back and sweeping out the trailer and giving them a credit toward hauling or lessons. That way if they do a good job the opportunity comes along again and if they do a bad job or the parents dont come get them forever I just dont offer again.

I think part of the problem is most parents dont realize the amout of physical work involved in barn chores or the potential dangers. There is also the fact that when I have clients paying for full care they do not want their horse being handled /cared for by a 10 year old.