Dressage- inclusive or exclusive?

[Ambrey]

There has been a kind of underlying theme to threads the last few days that got me thinking. The theme is that there are unwritten rules in dressage, and that those who do not follow them are not welcome. I'm talking specifically of the waived jackets and top hat threads.

The written rules we all know- but what about the basic premise? Is dressage an exclusive sport, open only those who are willing to embrace the culture? Or is dressage a sport open to those who can do the job, regardless of how they might fit in with the status quo?

By the way, "exclusive" has kind of double meaning here.

By the way, everyone I've met in person, from training level riders to USDF gold medalist trainers, has been extremely inclusive. I've only seen the exclusive argument online.

[slc2]

I think you're putting your own spin on it. No one ever said what your 'undercurrent' says. They whined about clothes, they whined about hats, that isn't the same as actually 'not wanting someone around' or even making them feel unwelcome.

I don't like someone wearing a top hat at first level with a short coat, but I would never, ever make that known at a show or treat anyone any differently because of that.

I seriously doubt anyone who whined about top hats would go up to someone at a show and spit in their oatmeal, or do anything openly upleasant, or even imply something unpleasant or in the least way negative.

The internet is where people come to thump their chests and throw sticks down from their leaf nests, and generally act like animals - they behave better in real life.

[Ambrey]

LOL, that wasn't my point, SLC. I was simply wondering how pervasive the attitude was. Exclusive is not a dirty word.

[slc2]

This is America. Of course it is a dirty word, and I'm sure you meant it to be. I think it's your 'draft-horse-at-the-olympics' thing rearing its ugly head again.

[Carolinadreamin']

Those who worry about such things obviously have too much time on their hands....time which would be better spent riding.

How many shows have you ridden in? Do you honestly feel your score was directly impacted by what you or another rider was wearing or perhaps the saddle pad color? Why do you ride? Enjoy the pursuit of dressage for the challenge it presents to both you and your horse. Everything else should not matter.

[Ambrey]

This is America. Of course it is a dirty word, and I'm sure you meant it to be. I think it's your 'draft-horse-at-the-olympics' thing rearing its ugly head again.

Um, how long have you lived in America, SLC? "Exclusive" is still used as a positive adjective to mean "fashionable, catering to the wealthy."

To me, comments like "one should always wear a jacket" and "top hats are for upper levels" are indications of exclusivity.

I actually hadn't thought of the draft horse issue, as the last draft horse I saw going at a show was ridden by someone wearing an earned top hat ;) I believe he won his classes as well.

And, no, I don't believe the vast majority of judges would be affected by such things, which is another reason I wonder why people find them important.

[Dressage Art]

The theme is that there are unwritten rules in dressage, and that those who do not follow them are not welcome.Kind of cool high school cliques? He-he! Those people should realize that they are Dressage Queens ;) And may be ask themselves how important it was for them to wear a "cool" jeans or "cool" jacket 20 years ago? I don't even remember what I was wearing back then.

[BuddyRoo]

I was always really intimidated by dressage and H/J riders for that matter.

My perception (coming from a Western background) was that if your horse wasn't X breed of the day and your clothes weren't X brand of the day that folks didn't want you around.

Well. There certainly ARE those types. But in my limited experience thus far, I've found that the folks whose horsemanship, riding, etc I admire most are also very welcoming and encouraging. It seems like the ones who are snotty about stuff are maybe acting based on their own insecurities.

That's no different than any other discipline or sport.

[egontoast]

There has been a kind of underlying theme to threads the last few days that got me thinking. The theme is that there are unwritten rules in dressage, and that those who do not follow them are not welcome. I'm talking specifically of the waived jackets and top hat threads.

The written rules we all know- but what about the basic premise? Is dressage an exclusive sport, open only those who are willing to embrace the culture? Or is dressage a sport open to those who can do the job, regardless of how they might fit in with the status quo?




Ever hear the expression, 'not seeing the forest for the trees?'

I think you are focussing on the wrong things. What to wear? How to be accepted in the in crowd? Shopping ? Chip on the shoulder about the draft cross? Chip on the shoulder about being overweight? Chip on the shoulder....you can fill in the blanks.

All just excuses and distractions from the process of learning to ride well and train well.

Those who ride well are rewarded by the fact that they rode well even if no one else notices except the horse.

[kdow]

I think you're putting your own spin on it. No one ever said what your 'undercurrent' says. They whined about clothes, they whined about hats, that isn't the same as actually 'not wanting someone around' or even making them feel unwelcome.

I don't like someone wearing a top hat at first level with a short coat, but I would never, ever make that known at a show or treat anyone any differently because of that.

I seriously doubt anyone who whined about top hats would go up to someone at a show and spit in their oatmeal, or do anything openly upleasant, or even imply something unpleasant or in the least way negative.


This. I might think it looks strange (because it's not what I expect to see) but if I said anything at all it'd just be on the basis of I think most people should be wearing helmets anyway, 'cause I'm a helmet every ride kind of person.

I mean, I'm sure there are places where having the right brand of whatever is the most important thing - because some people LIKE that kind of environment. But there's plenty of other places where how you ride is more important than the breed of horse you're riding or what you're wearing while you ride (provided it's safe attire, of course.)

It's unfortunate that some people are going to run into one of those 'right brand' places as their first introduction to a new sport, and think that's what it's about, but at the same time, it's not like you can really say to the 'right brand' people that THEY don't deserve to ride - that's being just as exclusive as the other way around.

[slc2]

There's just as much reverse snobbism around, well, actually, I think there is more.

Warmbloods stink, are insensitive, stupid, not 'real' dressage horses, <whatever breed I have> is far better, warmbloods are incapable of loving their owners, nice riding clothing stinks and is a waste of money, no horse is worth paying more than 2000 dollars for, people who win at shows can't ride, they just cheated, judges suck and don't know 'real dressage', people who have money don't love their horses as much as people who don't, people who show more don't love their horses as much as people who don't show a lot, people who work with more well known trainers are just cougars or fawning toadies, blah blah blah...and all things I have been told with the utmost sincerity.

Honestly I believe there is more of that than the other 'snobbism'. And actually I think it's far, far more annoying, because people so blindly accept that THAT sort of junk is ok, and the other is so, so different from what they are wallowing in.

[FriesianX]

And may be ask themselves how important it was for them to wear a "cool" jeans or "cool" jacket 20 years ago? I don't even remember what I was wearing back then.

Dittos pants - remember them? And bell bottoms? And remember Chemin De Fer sailor pants? I saved my babysitting money for months to buy a pair:lol:

[asb_own_me]

To me, comments like "one should always wear a jacket" and "top hats are for upper levels" are indications of exclusivity.


I consider a top hat an earned part of your dress ... similar to earning your colors on the hunt field. It signifies (or SHOULD signify) a certain level of achievement. And respect.

If earning something by achievement in sport is "exclusive", then damn skippy I think dressage and about any other sport should be a little more exclusive.

[JRG]

Just because you weigh in on a topic doesn't make you anysort of DQ, or would exclude anyone.

When people post things they are asking your opinion. If I were at a horse show and someone asked me something, I would give them my honest although softened answer if I felt that the answer was not going to be to their likeing but it would be a direct answer.

That being said....not once have I ever looked around a dressage show ground and worried one fig about what anyone else was doing or wearing for that matter and know what ever asked me what I felt about anything.


As far as changing anything, I have my little things I would like to adjust (remember the coat thread) but I want to play so I mold to what is the norm and pick my battles on the things I can have fun with.

I have done a lot of discipines and everyone of them has that "unwritten rule book". Dressage does not have exclusivity.

[Sacred_Petra]

I think socially, dressage tends to be a more exclusive sport. In the show ring, the judging is as fair as any sport, and no one would say anything to another person if they didn't follow an unwritten rule, but outside of the show ring it seems more exclusive than other disciplines. In english riding, I've noticed people seem more brand exclusive, where product A from brand X is obviously better than the same product from brand Y, and because some BNT supports brand x, those of us who have brand X are better than those of us with brand Y. I will say though, most of my experience in this regard comes from riding at expensive show barns that catered to the very wealthy, so that may have been a contributing factor.

I do have to agree with BuddyRoo though, and say that the people who are more secure with themselves, are often very inclusive and welcoming. IME, this is how most of life is (it was this way when I danced, and the music world is the same way too), but dressage attracts more perfectionists who are more likely to be insecure. :shrugs: JMO.

[TheHorseProblem]

Dittos pants - remember them? And bell bottoms? And remember Chemin De Fer sailor pants? I saved my babysitting money for months to buy a pair:lol:

Well, you know what they say--if you're old enough to have worn them once, and they come back in style, you can't wear them again! ;)

I'm just waiting for this whole low rise thing to go away.

[Carolinadreamin']

Petra, what do you mean when you say "english riding"? Do you mean hunters, jumpers, dressage, or eventing? A world of difference between them. I have never notice the pressure of wearing a particular brand or the "right" helmet in eventing or dressage. Never. Have seen it in hunters, however. My last horse came from a very nice A-circuit barn. Almost every saddle in their tack room was a Devoucoux. The pressure to conform to a certain brand or wear the latest helmet seems more prevalent in the hunter world. Doesn't make them bad or good, it is the way it is.

I found your comment about dressage attracting perfectionists quite humorous. Insecurity abounds in the horse world, be that western, english, endurance riding, living on online horse BBs, driving, etc.

[TheHorseProblem]

I have never notice the pressure of wearing a particular brand or the "right" helmet in eventing or dressage. Never.

I have seen it in dressage, but I don't think the riding discipline is the problem. I think the tone is set by the head trainer. I read in the saddle threads quite often that "everyone in my barn rides in a County (or whatever brand)." I was briefly in a BNT's barn 9 years ago, and everyone there rode in a La Bella or some such brand. Later I rode with a trainer who always had two or three clients at the shows on their Arabians or TB's competing against big expensive horses, and having a great time. Everything in her tack room was brand X. They thought I was a snob because I had a saddle cover for my Passier, and Cavallo boots (purchased in Germany when the dollar was strong) that I wiped off after every ride and kept in a boot bag.

I have to take care of my stuff. I can't afford to replace it.

[Dressage Art]

if you're old enough to have worn them once, and they come back in style, you can't wear them again! ;):lol:Well, my hubby is patiently waiting for the parashoot pants to come back, so he can stuff his pockets with even more stuff!!!

[TheHorseProblem]

My other favorite thing to say is that just because they make it in my size does not mean I should wear it.

I watched Baby Boom the other day and thought I'd revisit the 80's trend of buttoning the shirt all the way up to my neck and wearing a brooch. I could not button the top button.

I still tuck my shirt in to my breeches though!

[Ambrey]

Dittos pants - remember them? And bell bottoms? And remember Chemin De Fer sailor pants? I saved my babysitting money for months to buy a pair:lol:

Yay Dittos! And Chemin de Fer!

What was the one with the tagline "we derriere you?"

[Sacred_Petra]

Petra, what do you mean when you say "english riding"? Do you mean hunters, jumpers, dressage, or eventing? A world of difference between them. I have never notice the pressure of wearing a particular brand or the "right" helmet in eventing or dressage. Never. Have seen it in hunters, however. My last horse came from a very nice A-circuit barn. Almost every saddle in their tack room was a Devoucoux. The pressure to conform to a certain brand or wear the latest helmet seems more prevalent in the hunter world. Doesn't make them bad or good, it is the way it is.

I found your comment about dressage attracting perfectionists quite humorous. Insecurity abounds in the horse world, be that western, english, endurance riding, living on online horse BBs, driving, etc.

I did see it way more in hunters than in dressage, but it came up sometimes in dressage when talking about brands of tack. I won't disagree about there being insecurity in all disciplines, but I notice it making people less inclusive more often in dressage.

[Pony Fixer]

I'm not sure about exclusive in either sense...

I will say, if you can "bring it" you can do whatever you want. If you can ride the hair off the test, you can wear a top hat at 2nd, no jacket, off breed, whatever and everyone will only notice that you rode an excellent test.

If you are, ahem, not so gifted (bad riding)? Everyone will notice that you are a bad rider AND they will notice you wore a top hat at 2nd, no coat, and ride an off breed. :)

[Arizona DQ]

There has been a kind of underlying theme to threads the last few days that got me thinking. The theme is that there are unwritten rules in dressage, and that those who do not follow them are not welcome. I'm talking specifically of the waived jackets and top hat threads.

The written rules we all know- but what about the basic premise? Is dressage an exclusive sport, open only those who are willing to embrace the culture? Or is dressage a sport open to those who can do the job, regardless of how they might fit in with the status quo?
.

Oh good grief!:no:

Who gives a flying "flower" what other people think??? Are you in this for the approval of others or for the love of the ART of dressage? Are you trying to find a clique to join or are you trying to learn and do the best by your horse and abide by the basic tenants of dressage?

Give it a break! :no:

I am way beyond measuring the worth of a person by their clothes (or anything else!). Do you want approval??? Then show your ability to ride and be the best you can be for your horse!!!

Why are you even asking this? :mad:

[Ambrey]

Why are you even asking this? :mad:

Curious what others think? Like to hear other people's opinions? You choose :) I notice that you were one of the ones who disliked the idea of lower level riders wearing top hats, so it's kind of interesting that this particular question offends you so!

When hunters are asked, it seems like the majority agree that it's pretty exclusive, and that the appearance is a major part of the game. I was wondering whether there were many people who would be willing to voice a desire to keep dressage the same way :)

So far, not so much- seems like most people responding here believe that the fashion culture is not a core component in dressage :)

[Arizona DQ]

So far, not so much- seems like most people responding here believe that the fashion culture is not a core component in dressage :)

WOW!!!! I always thought the core component of dressage was the Training Pyramid...Kind regards and hope you have a great time in your Top hat and Tails....:lol:

[quietann]

I think it can be either, but the "exclusivity" goes up as one goes up the levels, works with a BNT, boards at a fancier barn, etc. One just needs to find the setting that works! There will be snobby people, but there are also a lot of nice ones.

Oh yeah, I remember Dittos, too. They were the big thing when I was in 8th grade, and girls would compete to see who could get the most pairs, in the most unusual colors and fabrics, etc. One of my friends had over 100 pairs and she got every single one custom-altered to fit her perfectly! Yet she was still my friend, even though I had maybe 3 or 4 pairs. I do have to say, Dittos were fabulous pants for those of us with "junk in the trunk."

[merrygoround]

To get back to the OP. I think dressage should be inclusive, and it mostly is. I've long noticed an improvement in stadium scores by eventing horses whose riders have improved their dressage. And certainly a field hunter does better with gates and other hunting requirements by understanding the use of the leg, which really isn't a dressage concept but a good riding concept.

Of course, now and the we all get stuck in spelling it with a capital D, instead of thinking of it as it is, and was meant to be "training".

[Carolinadreamin']

You can find snobbery and exclusivity anywhere in life if you look hard enough. In your pursuit of dressage, how in the world should that matter at all? Your horse doesn't give a rat's rear end about what upper level rider A is wearing or what rider B thinks of you. The proof is in the riding. All else is simply excuses. You've got a good looking horse, ambrey. Ride him, enjoy him and don't worry about anything else. It shouldn't matter.

[AnotherRound]

You can find snobbery and exclusivity anywhere in life if you look hard enough. In your pursuit of dressage, how in the world should that matter at all? Your horse doesn't give a rat's rear end about what upper level rider A is wearing or what rider B thinks of you. The proof is in the riding. All else is simply excuses. You've got a good looking horse, ambrey. Ride him, enjoy him and don't worry about anything else. It shouldn't matter.

Well, I was going to say that, but CD said it first. Why look around and detect "undercurrents" in bulletin board posts? I went to my first A level dressage show yesterday with people from all over, (not to ride, but to groom and learn about how the classes work, about how the tests are run, about the details of performance and the details of presenting the work a rider has accomplished) and detected nothing but hard work going on, and friendliness from all quarters. There were some wonderful, high caliber horses and riders there, hard working trainers, riders, owners and support persons, like me. The variety of levels and what people wore was way low on the list of priorities. You try to look your best, clean off your boots before entering the ring, and the judge watches you run your test. Extremely high caliber judging, extremely good, kind and helpful responses from the judges. Isn't that what you show for?

I detect an "undercurrent" in your posts, Ambrey, of social fear and concern about being 'in', fashion and buying things. That isn't what dressage is about, and even though its what concerns you, its not what concerns other people. Its about the work and about self-improvement. Hopefully you'll let go of the unimportant concerns which make you start these threads about exclusivity and start posting about the work you and your horse are doing!

[TheHorseProblem]

Why are you even asking this? :mad:


"The food here is so bad."

"Yes, and such small portions."

~Woody Allen

[mp]

There has been a kind of underlying theme to threads the last few days that got me thinking. The theme is that there are unwritten rules in dressage, and that those who do not follow them are not welcome.

There are unwritten rules in every one of life's endeavors, equine and otherwise. As for being "unwelcome" if you don't adhere to them, that depends on the individual. If you're disrespectful, nasty, boring or in any respect a chore to be around, you won't be welcome whether you go by the rules or not.

I did a story for a magazine years ago on why people get fired. The #1 reason was not performance-related -- incompetence, tardiness and lack of experience were way down the list. Far and away the most common reason was the person's inability to fit in with co-workers and get along with the manager. Lee Iacocca is probably the best example. He was the most successful man in the automotive industry in 1978. But he got fired anyway. When asked why, Henry Ford II said: "I never liked the son-of-a-bitch."

True of the business world. True in dressage. If people like you, it won't matter if you break a few unwritten rules. If you're a pain in the ass, it will.

[rugbygirl]

You can find snobbery and exclusivity anywhere in life if you look hard enough.

Yup.

I went to what most consider an "elite" Dressage barn with a Wintec AP saddle and a plow-horse for lessons. Every horse there was a brilliant Dressage prospect (or already a performer) and I believe all the riders had custom-fitted saddles. Getting the picture? I got some of the best instruction of my life and nothing but positivity from everyone there.

I also brought same plow-horse to some schooling shows, and had some good tests and bad. Lots of smiles and great comments from judges. I got a little too bold and brought her to a rated show too...that's where the frowns, whispers and nasty comments came in. But you know what? Neither of us was ready for that show, and it showed. If we'd showed up the way we did and put in a SUPER test, no one would have been whispering and snarking.

I think a lot of the "undercurrents" you read are due to the fact that Dressage riders tend to be extremely focused perfectionists. Like all true perfectionists, they expect everyone around them to strive for the same level of perfection, with the same level of intensity. They truly view it as an insult to slap some black tack on your field Hunter and put in a sloppy Training Level. And in a lot of ways that IS an insult. Your sloppy test took another 5 minutes out of the show day, and made everyone's wait a little longer.

Now, I am firmly in the camp that the only way for a lot of Adult Amateurs to improve is to get out and show, perfect or not...but pick the right venue if you're not sure your pony will be okay with staying in the ring. That venue is not a rated show, generally.

[Sandy M]

Yup.

Now, I am firmly in the camp that the only way for a lot of Adult Amateurs to improve is to get out and show, perfect or not...but pick the right venue if you're not sure your pony will be okay with staying in the ring. That venue is not a rated show, generally.

Glad you added the "generally" qualifier. In some areas, schooling shows are few and far between. You want to show, you show rated. I've shown my greenie five times this year, so far. Four rated shows, one schooling show. There have been maybe three schooling shows within a reasonable distance, and one of them was MORE expensive than a rated show would have been, so I opted for the rated show. Sometimes you just don't have the choice.

[AnotherRound]

Glad you added the "generally" qualifier. In some areas, schooling shows are few and far between. You want to show, you show rated. I've shown my greenie five times this year, so far. Four rated shows, one schooling show. There have been maybe three schooling shows within a reasonable distance, and one of them was MORE expensive than a rated show would have been, so I opted for the rated show. Sometimes you just don't have the choice.

Yes, but her point was be prepared, and work hard - don't go to any show and put in a sloppy test, or complain about how you were judged unfairly or the judge was prejudicial, a sloppy test, and lack of work shows, when you are among company who are working hard to put in a good test. You don't have to be high level to put in a clean, well practiced test at whatever level you show, at whatever type of show you attend. Just my opinion.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

I think the exclusivity in dressage, or any horse sport, exists on a barn-to-barn basis, and could be better termed “conformity.” There is a great deal of “my way or the highway” attitude about horses, training, and horsekeeping, that comes up mostly in the inner workings of particular barns.

Personal Story:

My TB Fancy hated to be blanketed and had, for 12 years, wintered mostly outside (with shelter/access to a stall) with his natural winter coat. I moved to him a barn at age 13 for a few months where EVERYONE blanketed and when I said I don’t blanket, they looked at me as if I was insane. So, anyways, we hit a 40 degree day (I live in MI) and sure enough, every other horse is all trussed up in their $$$ winter blankets. Fancy, in his growing wooly coat, really stuck out.

To make a long story short, the barn manager blanketed my horse with her blanket, simply to keep up appearances (he wasn’t acting cold). When I got to the barn, the barn manager said I could use her blanket until I “could afford one.” Um, since when did I say I couldn’t afford one?

Point of the story is, conformity is the name of the game in horses. Had I put a blanket on my horse at my old “non-blanketing” barn, I probably would have had to deal with the same stuff.

A lot of times a riding instructor/barn manager insists on micromanaging everyone’s horse, so that everyone is riding in the same bits, saddles, and doing the same things with feed/turnout, boots, shoes,etc. I love taking lessons, but I do get tired of being told 23049824398920 different things about how to manage my horse, depending on who my instructor is at the time.

[rugbygirl]

but I do get tired of being told 23049824398920 different things about how to manage my horse, depending on who my instructor is at the time.

YES YES YES.

Sometimes I want to scream. Go to a different barn and now all of a sudden the knot that your previous instructor INSISTED was the only lead tie knot that wouldn't kill your horse is now the exact knot that will surely cripple him for life. And no, you don't grain by volume, it's by WEIGHT (or vice versa) and it isn't a DANDY brush it's a long-bristled BODY brush (or whatever).

It's like a lot of these people don't know that there is sometimes more one right answer, and that for people who switch barns or have worked/volunteered at a variety, some of the stuff they absolutely LOSE THEIR POO about is a flavour-of-the-day thing that other barn managers insist goes the exact opposite way. :lol:

One thing that is consistent with all those neurotic manager types is that they are always happy to assume that you're of sub-normal intelligence, so you can avoid conflict by acting dumb :o

[Ibex]

Sadly exclusive. As in, students of the local BNT receiving inflated marks and placing over other riders despite multiple and obvious mistakes.