A tale of two stables--a rant about snobbery--what do you think?

[Vesper Sparrow]

Let us say that there are two barns. The first barn, which is eventing based, is a bit off the beaten path; BO/trainer is very competent. Her students are at the top of many of the dressage divisons at the local GMO shows and a few have gone to the national level. She has ridden successfully at the national level as well. First barn isn't fancy but takes good care of its horses.

Second barn is more in the mainstream, geographically and socially, and isprimarily h/j but with a few dressage folks. Although the physical plant looks nicer at first glance than the first barn's, if you take a closer look, there is a back pasture full of very ribby sale horses.

Local GMO has been holding a series of dressage shows for many years. The second barn hosts three, which are well attended by the "in" crowd and local DQs. Although the first barn people do well, they sometimes get treated like hillbillies. For example, kids are pulled aside by steward and given a tongue lashing for wearing buff instead of white breeches; people are made to wait until the very last minute for their ribbons, well after everyone else has gotten them. In addition, the second barn's shows are very poorly organized (for example, ride times are posted late and are incorrect; score sheets are very late in coming; one show starts an hour late). However, they are very well attended by the "in" crowd.

The first barn is asked to host a couple of shows in the series last year and only a few people from outside the barn show up and none of the "in" crowd (who can qualify for the provincials by only attending the shows at the second barn). Ride times are posted well in advance; there are a few glitches, but the show goes off well. Still, the DQs stay away in droves. This year, the same thing happens!

Comments, opinions? Obviously I board at the first barn, so I am biaised. I guess the silver lining in this cloud is that none of these snobby DQs will ever deign to board at my barn, so we don't have to deal with them....

[Sakura]

It's a shame the people from the second barn think their crap doesn't stink... and that they can avoid the well run shows at your barn in exchange for guaranteed success at theirs... but when its all done and said... count your blessings... seems to me at least, you have many more than they do :yes:.

[Equibrit]

I can't imagine why you would post something like that ? Sounds a bit green to me.

[ESG]

Sounds to me like the "in crowd" is only that, in the sense that they have their collective head "in" their rear ends. :D

Life's too short to stress about people like that, as they will always be there and can't be changed. Go on beating them, collect your ribbons, and tell that asshat steward that buff is an appropriate color for breeches in dressage competition at any level. Better yet, boycott their shows and find another place to compete. Stay away in droves from the snob factory, and I'll bet your GMO will get the message. Better yet, tell the local GMO what's going on, and they'll get the message even sooner.

[Vesper Sparrow]

I can't imagine why you would post something like that ? Are you saying that people are snobs and DQs because they don't like to attend a poorly run show ?

Equibrit, I think I've confused you and maybe others... the poorly run show is the one the snobs and DQs come to in droves. They boycott the well -run one.

[DesignerLabel]

I would say consider yourself lucky that these DQ's do not show up. It's their loss, not yours. You don't want to get me started on the DQs. Please keep in mind that I do not equate dressage with DQs. They are two totally different things.

There were a couple of DQs at the barn I boarded at a few years ago. This was a multidiscipline barn, so the DQs were in the minority and tried to make life miserable for everyone else. My favorite thing to do was to ride my NSH park horse in the somewhat small indoor arena while they were attempting to monopolize the use of the arena. I was always respectful of their space (at least I didn't run into anyone on purpose!)

Another favorite memory was a time that a DQ just couldn't master a shoulders-in movement with her very large and expensive warmblood. A good friend of mine was riding her little Arabian gelding, western saddle and boots, ball cap, etc., whose specialty was working cow horse. My friend listened to the DQs complaints about her horse for a minute, then said, "Oh, you mean like this?" She then proceeded to take her little cow horse across the arena in a perfect shoulders-in movement. A kodak moment, for sure.

Be glad you are at the barn you are at. It's all about perceived status with many of these DQs. How many of them have progressed past training level? Not that there's anything wrong with training level, but it seems to me after about 6 or 7 years, you ought to be considering first level, at least!

Liz

[Equibrit]

Maybe you could ask why some folks don't attend your show. They may have totally different and legitimate reasons and you could put your prejudices aside. I think if I could qualify by only riding at my home barn instead of trailering "a bit off the beaten path", I'd do it.

[Vesper Sparrow]

Just a bit of an explanation--the second barn is located more conveniently for most of the DQs, but only a few of them actually board at that barn. It is primarily H/J. They still have to trailer in to the second barn, but it is closer than my barn (let's say 15 minutes for them, instead of 30 minutes). I still believe the issue is more one of the perceived idea of going out to that barn in the sticks, where there are few airs and pretensions...

However, if distance is indeed the problem, I would ask my GMO why did they ask our barn to hold shows in the first place? Why did they stack the deck against our barn? Why not even the playing field by restricting the second barn to 2 instead of 3 shows, so that everyone has to trailer out to at least 1 show?

[Vesper Sparrow]

I can't imagine why you would post something like that ? Sounds a bit green to me.


I don't understand what you mean by green. Please explain.

[Sakura]

I don't understand what you mean by green. Please explain.

Envy?

[Vesper Sparrow]

Envy?

I am green as grass for sure. That I will admit. Only been riding for a few years. Not envious, because when I chose my barn, I wanted a fun, welcoming place like my current one and I'm happy to be there.

Perhaps I am indeed naive. I posted this because it upsets me to see my BO and the show organizers work so hard and then have nobody show up. It's very disappointing to them in particular.

[mvp]

Seems the fair thing to do since we all have never met. I'll do that and ask the OP some questions:

First, let me say that this kind of crap happens in the U S of A all the time. It's not supposed to happen in Canada, too! Please, some of us look up to you people for tutelage on how to be a nice resident of the abundant North American Continent.

Moving on: What do you want? Venting here is just fine. Do you want your shows to be better attended or the other shows to wither?

If you'd like the second, absolutely vote with your feet and your wallet. I'm all old and cranky now, so I'm fussy about the shows I attend. If they aren't done well, I'm a little bummed but I try to bite my tongue. If they aren't done well and management is rude (let alone down right unfair), I'm done.

But if you'd like your shows to be better attended, follow the "build it and they will come" philosophy. So, for all you do right, are crucial things like good footing, adequate warm up, decent access to wash racks, stalls, water missing? It might be that that behind the scenes infrastructure really is lacking at your barn and that's enough to send the well-heeled running. Conversely, no one showing at a barn with spectacular footing needs to care if the sales beasts in the back 40 look bad.

Are you connected to planning the shows at your barn? If so, volunteer to help plan better ones. If you are at all friendly with some of the "other" competitors, casually ask them why they choose the venues they do. In some case, it's just that their trainer picks the shows. In this case, it become important to make the stabling or parking work for a big barn.

Hope this give you some productive place to start in making things better.

[Vesper Sparrow]

Well said, MVP. Their footing is sand, ours is sand and rock dust--so perhaps theirs is a little better. Last time, we were able to warm up in our indoor (which has very good footing), then proceed outside to a grassy area to do final warm up, and then ride our tests in the sand and rock dust outdoor.

In general we have plenty of water, a wash stall, stalls to rent for the day or night, etc. Ours just looks less "fancy" from the outside.

I have no desire to "penalize" the other barn as long as they run their shows well. But I don't want to have to wait for my ribbons longer than anyone else because I'm from "that" barn. Or see our kids in tears from being berated unneccessarily.

In fact, I want my young horse to have the chance to go to shows away from home should we be able to hit "the big time" later on.

Perhaps I should strike up a conversation with some of my counterparts to find out why they don't attend our shows.

[Ambrey]

Perhaps I should strike up a conversation with some of my counterparts to find out why they don't attend our shows.

I think that would be best... and try to avoid mentioning things like the ribby sale horses that just sound like sour grapes.

There could be a multitude of reasons- maybe your BO has had it out with people, or there's a history there that you are unaware of. Maybe people really don't like the facilities at your barn or feel maintenance isn't up to par. Maybe the judge your barn chose was in disfavour.

The one thing that did strike me in your post was the buff breeches comment- if people at your barn have a reputation for not dressing the part, it could make people not want to come. Some people put high value on appearance in dressage (go up to the dressage forum and read the thread about waiving jackets for an example!).

[slc2]

There are always two sides to every story.

There's the way you see it, then there's the way someone on the other side sees it.

So you don't like the other barn. You don't have to. You're at the barn you like. So are the other people.

If the two barns really don't support each other in the community and together build a better horse person's community, that's to their mutual disadvantage. Not to the disadvantage of one barn or the other.

Barn owners that pull together and cooperate build a better horse community. More recognized shows, more top notch clinics, more dressage club educational activities, etc.

Most likely, the 'conflict' is more of a business disagreement between barn owner 1 and barn owner 2 than anything to be blamed on the individuals riding at either barn. To characterize people as being 'snobs' (or even 'not snobs') because of where they pay to board is really unfair.

[millwrightmomma]

I'll bet your horse is much happier at a low keyed barn, and where he gets well fed and cared for.
As for the snob barn.........let them have their airs, their heads are stuffed in an airless place anyway :D

I'll tell you a funny one. a member of our national team was embarrased into coming and seeing a gelding of mine that was born from a rescued mare. A green horse, jumped a 4 1/2 foot rail with a stride and a 1/2, the horse did this himself. this was to get out of the round pen, he had a rider.

The olympian immediately wants the horse, I refused as we had been rudely insulted just moments before, and I didn't think it was in my baby's best interests for him to go to this person. The olympian wants to ride the horse, begs to ride him.

This horse has always been gently treated, but at 4 yrs old is already 17HH. Olympian approaches the horse, cannot get on him, and needs a leg up, fine. But he cannot get him to move forward. he asks for a crop, but I said, "do not hit the horse, just wave it", NOPE, olympian gives him a big crack on the butt, kicks him hard, yells, Horse jumps, takes off around the round pen somewhat panicing. I verbally told the horse to stop which he did, almost unseating the O. Rider.....who cracks him again, and I'm going thru the rails of the roundpen after the rider at this point.
Horse decides on another tactic, he sat down like a dog, and when the rider didn't get off he gentley lay down.

Horse 1: rider 0 he didn't get the horse either.

Just because they have a name, doesn't mean they are any good!! :D

[Chief2]

Frankly, I think all of this envy and angst is ridiculous. Eventers are some of the nicest folks I have ever encountered. Dressage folks are some of the most well-studied and serious riders I have met, wonderfully knowledgeable, and also quite nice. Regardless of clique accusations, they have the luxury of time to devote to studying one discipline and only one discipline, so they tend to be really, really good at what they do, and hang out with other riders of the same persuasion. Eventers do not have that luxury of time.They are busy trying to keep their dressage, jumping and outdoor riding going forwards all at the same time. To the outside riders they appear to be too busy going in too many other directions to have garnered the depth that comes in specializing in only one discipline. A mistaken presumption on many folks part, but there it is, so c'est la vie.

Back east, folks who want to show successfully wear exactly what they are supposed to, right down to eliminating the last spec of dust from their boots and anchoring that last strand of loose hair. I don't know of an eventer or dressage rider who shows in beige breeches. The ones at our barn all wear white even to the local schooling shows, regardless of what level they are at. The attire is immaculate, the horses are clean and braided, and the boots are shining. However, further west, things tend to be a little more laid back in the attire and hair dressing department, and perhaps that attitude has been characteristic of your barn. It sounds as though Barn B has adopted the more rigid attire attitudes known to be automatically in place back east, so if you are going to show there, you will have to step up to the plate.

It really doesn't matter who your trainer has coached or how far. What matters to the locals is that they have a show that is worth their time and money to go to. So if the people you are wishing to attract are looking for a true dressage experience, right down to the breeches and braiding, then require it and match it in your own show riders. Match the fees they are willing to pay elsewhere, provide quality footing, good ammenities and decent judging. Make sure they know you have seriously upped the ante, and then run the daylights out of that show. We have combined training facilities here that have good turnouts at their dressage shows because they have good judges, insist on quality turnout for all and run a good show. If that is what your barn really wants then you will have to drop the hillbilly attitude, class up your act and offer what the locals you wish to attract really want to spend their money on. JMO.

[xQHDQ]

A couple of questions...

1) Is the shows at your barn new? If so, it takes time to draw people to come because they don't know what to expect. If they are good shows, word of mouth will spread
2) Are the facilities equal? Warm-up rings are a huge consideration as is the footing in the show ring.

The distance thing is also a HUGE consideration, as is the fact that your shows don't count towards any qualifiers but the other shows do. If I had to choose 1 show a month, it wouldn't be the one that didn't get me anywhere.

I'm sure a lot more is going on than you see.

[carp]

What do I think? I think that's why I don't show. I'll put up with catty behavior, but only if it comes packaged with four feet, a pettably soft fur coat and a lovely purr. Oh, and if I can kick it out into the rain when it hisses at me. :cool:

[Ghazzu]

Whatever else may be going on, I'd be filing a protest about the TD berating *anyone* for buff breeches, much less a child...

[greysandbays]

When well-run shows with at least adequate facilities don't draw sufficient entries, then either there is a date conflict with other shows in the area drawing from the same exhibitor pool, or people don't know about the shows.

If Barn A is relying upon their GMO to do their promoting, they need to pick up some of that and do it themselves. (The "if you want it done right, do it yourself" theory.)

If you don't have flyers on every (and I mean EVERY) bulletin board for 50 miles in any direction and an e-mail/snail mail mailing list of at least 100 people, your promotion is insufficient. The sport horse folks tend to think they only need to toot their own horn in their own baliwick, but you never know who is going to be passing through and might see your flier or take one and pass it on to someone they think might be interested.**

If the "snobs" aren't going to be coming to your show for whatever reason (don't need to, don't want to, are going someplace else that weekend), then figure out what market is NOT having their needs/wants met or figure out what needs to be changed to make your show competitive in the "snob" market.

** Note: if your shows are limited to your GMO members only, then that's one thing that needs to be changed if it can be. If that is the case, you will always be the little frog in the little puddle. If you gotta be a little frog, you at least want the puddle to be as big as possible.

[rcloisonne]

as is the fact that your shows don't count towards any qualifiers but the other shows do. If I had to choose 1 show a month, it wouldn't be the one that didn't get me anywhere.
My thoughts exactly. Many people are looking for points toward various year end awards. If your shows aren't USEF rated and the "snob" barn's shows are that could be the biggest factor in keeping folks away.

[Jsalem]

You can't underestimate the importance of "curb appeal". While you are attracted to the "low key", plain environment, others might find it too "back yard." You make assumptions about the care, but many times, the kind of management that keeps up a farm is on the ball about the horse care as well. Good management is good management.

Regarding the thin sale horses in the back field- do you know for a fact that those horses have been at the barn for a long time and aren't being cared for properly? That management doesn't care about them? Or are you using "reverse snobbery"- assuming that the DQ's are only interested in outward appearances and don't care for their horses as much as you do?

Sorry, but it just sounds like you're being rather snobby about the other barn just because it's prettier. The rich folk don't care about horsemanship. You've made assumptions about them, just as you're being defensive that they've made assumptions about you.

Can't we all just get along?

[Vesper Sparrow]

Most likely, the 'conflict' is more of a business disagreement between barn owner 1 and barn owner 2 than anything to be blamed on the individuals riding at either barn. To characterize people as being 'snobs' (or even 'not snobs') because of where they pay to board is really unfair.

There is no conflict between the barn owners as far as I can see; they seem to have a good business relationship. And, as I said before, the ones "boycotting" (perhaps too strong a term) do not board at the second barn. In fact, the second barn's horses do come to our show. The "boycotters" board here and there, but in the same community as the second barn.

[Vesper Sparrow]

My thoughts exactly. Many people are looking for points toward various year end awards. If your shows aren't USEF rated and the "snob" barn's shows are that could be the biggest factor in keeping folks away.

Again, all the shows are on equal footing as parts of the series counting towards the year-end awards. Our shows are rated the same as the second barn's shows.

[Vesper Sparrow]

1) Is the shows at your barn new? If so, it takes time to draw people to come because they don't know what to expect. If they are good shows, word of mouth will spread.
They started last year.


2) Are the facilities equal? Warm-up rings are a huge consideration as is the footing in the show ring.
I would say our footing is slightly better because the indoor is used for warm-ups, whereas they are using a sand paddock with a lot of small rocks in it for warm up. Our arena has better drainage.


The distance thing is also a HUGE consideration, as is the fact that your shows don't count towards any qualifiers but the other shows do. If I had to choose 1 show a month, it wouldn't be the one that didn't get me anywhere.
As I said before, all the shows count toward the qualifiers. It's just that the other barn has three shows, so people can choose just to go to those shows.

Distance wise, we're talking 15 minutes versus half an hour. And the people who had to travel the farthest (one hour) have come to all our shows!
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