do you have to earn it???

[Quest52]

Today I went to a show and I saw a lot of something that I don't remember seeing years ago, and once again, I'm asking an overall opinion.

Top hats: do you have to earn it?? I was always taught that you had to ride at least through 4th level to get your top hat, and then after that you could wear it if you so desired.

This weekend I've seen plenty of people that I know have not competed at that level donning their top hats at training level.

Whats the feeling about this?? I see it as almost a karate belt.

[narcisco]

No, you can just buy it.

[Quest52]

well... of course you can just BUY it... just like I can buy a black belt. I'm asking about the feelings of people riding in them without riding an upper level.

Has the top hat just become a fashion choice vs. a velvet cap?

[swgarasu]

Whats the feeling about this?? I see it as almost a karate belt.


You can just buy and wear those too.

But I know what you mean.

As far as I know the shadbellies are still only allowed at FEI, but the hats are fair game.

[Beasmom]

If you've got a top hat and you look good in it and enjoy wearing it and don't feel an overwhelming need to wear a helmet, go for it.

[Alagirl]

LOL, Black Belt and top hat.... :lol:


I take a top hat over a bowler/Derby anyday :yes:

[kdow]

You can just buy and wear those too.

But I know what you mean.

As far as I know the shadbellies are still only allowed at FEI, but the hats are fair game.

I thought the fashion "rule" was that top hats go with shadbellies, period. Hunt caps/helmets go with the normal jacket, and technically CAN be worn all the way up the levels, while shadbellies are reserved.

So wearing a normal dressage coat and a top hat, fashion-wise, is like wearing one brown shoe and one black shoe. Sure both feet are covered, but the pair doesn't really go together.

Obviously, as a fashion rule, it's about as meaningful as a wet noodle, but if you're trying to present yourself properly and follow the traditions of the sport, then wearing a top hat with anything other than a shadbelly is not the way to go about it.

[FancyFree]

This weekend I've seen plenty of people that I know have not competed at that level donning their top hats at training level.

At training level? That's just silly. I can't wait to wear a top hat. I hope to wear one, one day, but I surely won't be wearing one at Training level.

[Bats79]

Australia put a stop to that - by making crash hats compulsory. They even forced the FEI riders to wear crash hats with their tails for almost a season before they lost that fight.

Certainly don't see any top hats below PSG here anymore. :)

[slc2]

Things have changed. It used to be that if you showed up to compete wearing a short coat and top hat...well...no one would do such a thing, because it would just be the wierdest thing in the world to do....like showing up with Olympic medals bought in a garage sale.

The top hat thing, I believe changed the most when the USEF (then AHSA) made a rule change on clothing - that anyone could wear whatever hat they wanted to wear, ostensibly because this would save people money and they didn't have to buy a lot of different hats, especially to switch from Hunt Seat to dressage.

The other thing of course is that those little squishy top hats came over from Europe, and despite the fact that they make most people look like a sort of demented fishmonger, everyone went nuts over them.

The other driving factor of course is that over here, we didn't really have the tradition of wearing a bowler at the lower levels, where as in Europe it always used to be quite the done thing, and older pictures show riders at anything below the FEI in a bowler.

And here, most people seem to regard wearing a bowler as tatamount to being a 90 year old wearing a spandex gary glitter costume at a funeral. So what are people going to wear if they want to look cool? A tophat.

To allow the top hat at lower levels, when 99% of people are at the lower levels and can show in a hunt cap in dressage, the rule change made absolutely no sense at least per its justification, and I think the pressure came from people who wanted to wear top hats at lower levels, which I think stinks, but nobody asked me.

[Maude]

IMHO (and it is just my opinion) top hats look inappropriate on someone whose riding does not do them justice whether it is Training Level or 4th Level. If you're going to wear a top hat, you should be good. I actually saw someone with a top hat on in a schooling show. Roll Eyes! Again, just my opinion.

[JRG]

Add me to the group of people that think you need to earn it.

I will say I know people that show multiple horses and different levels and they don't change their topper, just their coats. Which falls into the above mentioned catagory of people that have earned it.

You will not see me wearing mine until PSG...even then I might still wear my helmet, now that I have the option.

[Roan]

I agree that you should have to earn it and I feel that anyone who is wearing one that hasn't made the levels just looks silly.

Fake. Poser. Impostor. Artificial. Bogus. Counterfeit. False. Faux. Fraud. Imitation. Imitative. Misrepresent. Phoney. Pretender. Sham.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A little thesaurus fun :D

Eileen

[slc2]

Oh I don't feel that strongly about it, especially because it is so widespread right now and a lot of people have no idea of the tradition behind it.

[coloredhorse]

Waaalll, my personal opinion is that a top hat with a short coat is the fashion equivalent of a tiara with a business suit. Mixing full-on black-tie formal with less formal is just silly. But no-one ever asks my opinion on these terribly important matters, so I guess we'll just have folks going around dressage shows looking silly.

[Coreene]

I think people that get into a wad re what hat someone wears - and frighteningly, you do see it too often - must have an otherwise worry-free life. I mean, they'd have to, wouldn't they? To worry about something as trivial and random as what hat someone else wears, a hat which has eff all to do with their own life? Sweet bejayzus, it's a hat. It's not world peace.

[hoopoe]

when I show I focus on my own fun.

I wore a top hat for what I knew was going to be my last ride. It was important to me

[atr]

I agree with Coreene. I mean really, who give a flying one about what someone else is wearing? You all sound like a bunch of stuffy old colonels in an English gentleman's club. I thought the USA was supposed to be more relaxed about stuff like that.

[Beasmom]

Hooray for Coreene, atr and hoopoe. It's allowed by USEF rules, I think I look very sharp in my topper (OR my derby) so pftftftft to the Fashion Nazis!

Those of you who fret over what someone else wears, eats, thinks or does -- get a life!

[Ambrey]

Someone needs to print the unwritten etiquette rules so others don't accidentally offend the fashion police. No top hats until 4th, wear your jacket even if it means heat stroke, etc.

I suspect many people don't find helmets flattering and like the look of the top hat better, and had no idea that there was an invisible rulebook that only those "in the know" had access to.

[Dressage Art]

Sweet bejayzus, it's a hat. It's not world peace.
Ditto. I don't care if one wears his shadbelly or jacket or riders with out jacket or wears his hat or helmet or has a brand name label uniform or the bottom of the line or got it used from Ebay...

I care about quiet hands, gentle whips and spurs, and riding our dancers (dressage horses) when they are sound and happy.

[ThatScaryChick]

I think people that get into a wad re what hat someone wears - and frighteningly, you do see it too often - must have an otherwise worry-free life. I mean, they'd have to, wouldn't they? To worry about something as trivial and random as what hat someone else wears, a hat which has eff all to do with their own life? Sweet bejayzus, it's a hat. It's not world peace.

I agree. People should focus on themselves and not worry about what someone else is wearing.

[ESG]

I agree with Coreene. I mean really, who give a flying one about what someone else is wearing? You all sound like a bunch of stuffy old colonels in an English gentleman's club. I thought the USA was supposed to be more relaxed about stuff like that.

Actually, IIRC, the then-AHSA frowned upon top hats at lower levels to the point that one would get eliminated for wearing one, inappropriately. Of course, this was back before the earth's crust cooled, as far as American dressage goes, so there you go.

Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for an obvious Training level rider to wear a top hat; I'm old-fashioned enough to think the right to wear one needs to be earned, along with the shadbelly. I wear a hunt cap, derby or my Tipperary when showing, depending on the docility of the horse I'm riding. But if someone just can't bear the thought of not wearing a top hat at Intro, I say go ahead - life's too short. But I reserve the right to snigger. :cool:

[Tiligsmom]

You "earn" scores. You don't "earn" the hat!

From an aesthetic perspective, I think the top hat with short coat is nicer looking than the helmet or bowler. I don't have any issues with which fashion statement folks want to make.

However, I'm a helmet fanatic, so I'll be wearing my brain bucket every ride, regardless of level or location :).

[Ambrey]

However, I'm a helmet fanatic, so I'll be wearing my brain bucket every ride, regardless of level or location :).

Ditto, on the off chance that I ever scramble my way to 4th, the helmet will remain :)

[Sakura]

I'm a rebel (without a cause)... I wear a derby :p... perfectly acceptable for lower levels on up... not as pretentious as a top hat and not as geeky as a brain bucket (albeit not as safe either).

[JRG]

For me it is not about being some fashion diva..it is about tradition. I believe in it as a foundation. It is just one aspect of the journey that is special, a milestone if you will.

[thatmoody]

I am honestly not sure whether to be embarrassed or not - I did that this weekend. I loved the way the hat looked, and my trainer said I could wear it if I wanted to, so I did. :D I try not to worry about what anyone says, and it's not like we're not doing well at our shows (he was absolutely fantastic this weekend).

I do not understand the english world yet - remember that I come from a cowboy background, but I do understand that there are certainly some things one does not do (that would be like wearing a vest at a roping, I suppose), but I do wish that someone would write all this stuff down!!!!

Edit - just for clarification - this post was tongue in cheek - if I gave a hoot what anyone thought (besides my trainer and the judge, of course) I suppose I would really BE embarrassed!

[theroanypony]

For me it is not about being some fashion diva..it is about tradition. I believe in it as a foundation. It is just one aspect of the journey that is special, a milestone if you will.

I don't show dressage. But, I love that idea. It seems like it would make you work that much harder to reach that milestone and get that respect (edit, the respect from working for something, not just being able to wear the hat). It does seem like it would make it that much more special.

[Quest52]

So... this is an extreme example, but maybe it will help to show a bit of where I'm coming from.

Would you wear a purple heart around to a parade if you weren't awarded it??? This is how I feel about the top hat (in perspective people... don't fight the hypo)

How many people answering have actually ridden FEI and "earned" the hat and shadbelly are chiming in??? Not to point you out as "ohhh you haven't gotten one!!" but... for me... theres something about getting there. There's something about the achievement and I believe wearing the top hat then at a lower level is like your cubs scout badges. And maybe to really get a strong grasp on it you have to experience it.

I wouldn't walk around with badges I didn't earn... and I feel the top hat is a badge.

[Dressage Art]

How many people answering have actually ridden FEI and "earned" the hat and shadbelly are chiming in???I rode JR/YR FEI and was wearing top hat and shadbelly from 14/15 years old. Yet, as I said before, I don't care if people are wearing top hat or riding with out a shadbelly in hot weather.

But, I can tell you that I had to really "earn" my reins and my spurs and my double bridle. Back in Eastern Europe I was in a riding school were we had to pass the exam/test to earn those and our military style instructors were not "easy" either.

Again, it goes back to what can make a difference to the HORSE!!! Not to DQs!!!

[Ambrey]

Would you wear a purple heart around to a parade if you weren't awarded it??? This is how I feel about the top hat (in perspective people... don't fight the hypo)

Alright, that's just a dumb analogy, sorry. The top hat is no longer associated with any rule. Nobody has a ceremony granting people who make FEI a top hat, and there's NO RULE THAT IT CAN'T BE WORN!

It may have once been a badge of honor, but it's not anymore. It's merely a piece of clothing.

Personally, I'd like to see it lose its significance and be replaced by helmets at all levels.

p.s. I do not mean to imply that people who make it to FEI haven't earned something, or that I have any less respect for people riding at those levels. I just don't like to see the badges of glory as being things that are hazardous to health, like wearing a jacket when it's 107 or a hat instead of a helmet! Can't you come up with a symbol of accomplishment that isn't going to make you sick?

[ThatScaryChick]

You really can't compare a hat to a receiving a purple heart. I get what you are saying, but really, it's not even close to being on the same level. If someone wants to wait to wear the hat until they feel like they've earned it, then they should. If someone wants to wear it whenever they want, then they're going to probably wear it whenever they want. The only way you are going to put a stop to it is if you get the rules changed.

[Twisting]

I agree the hat/medal analogy is not so hot. Specially since it's a federal offense to wear medals you didn't earn. Not so much with the hat.

Showing in 4th and above should be honor enough, not the piece of clothing.

[Roan]

Heh.

To clarify -- just because I feel strongly that wearing a hat when you haven't "earned" it is a no-no, it doesn't mean I'm getting my panties in a bunch.

Geez, Louise.

You wanna wear a hat? Wear a hat. I might shake my head but I'm not going to go all to pieces if you do.

Like DA my trainer is old school -- you EARN your spurs and your double bridle, but she's also a jumper and in her book you also have to earn your bling as well. I know her well enough that hat = bling and you have to earn it.

It's my horse. If I told her I wanted to wear a hat she'd just ask if it was allowed and say nothing. It's the "nothing" that says everything with her and I respect her enough that I wouldn't do it even if I wanted to.

Just my 2 cents -- go ahead and wear a hat. It's your head.

Eileen

[blackhorsegirl]

I've seen a low level rider wear one in training level at a schooling show just because she likes them. I've also seen a pro wear one at a schooling show at 1st level. It looked like this was a way of saying "Look at me. This class is much lower than I normally ride." It was a means of showing off. I've read a survey of top judges and their opinion is that they don't care. They would really just like you to ride well.

[Ajierene]

I agree the hat/medal analogy is not so hot. Specially since it's a federal offense to wear medals you didn't earn. Not so much with the hat.

Showing in 4th and above should be honor enough, not the piece of clothing.

It cracks me up when people make these analogies. It was the same with the hunt top boot debate. Would you impersonate a police officer? Well, gee, first off we are not talking about impersonating anyone and secondly, is it a federal offense to wear a top hat at all, ever.

Secondly, in reference to this particular analogy, hmm....all Purple Heart recipients were gravely injured - this is how you get the purple heart. About 35% died because of their wounds, another 35% ended up disabled (lost arms, legs, went blind, etc.).

In order to get a purple heart, you have to have been injured badly enough by enemy action (direct or indirect) to require immediate medical attention. About 70% are not able to do all the things they did before getting the purple heart, after receiving it.

In order (by tradition) wear the top hat (add in shadbelly if you want), you compete at X level in dressage. No one has not been able to do all the things they did before 'earning' the top hat, after they did. As a matter of fact, most of them have gone on to ride other horses to that level and have increased their skill set.

A more appropriate analogy would be maybe wearing an Olympic medal, but then that does not necessarily mean someone earned it. It may have been given to them by someone and they wear it in memory or honor of them. They may wear it as style also - but it is not against any rules, so they can do what they want with it. Of course you still have the difference between a top hat and an Olympic medal or purple heart being you cannot go down to your local store or shop internet stores and get one (discounting some crazy eBay person selling it - talking companies only).

Sometimes I just think there is way to much being stuck in some antiquated traditions - such as fashion - in the horse world. Other sports evolve - football has different uniforms, as does basketball and tennis....no one seems up in arms about that. Nope, just the crazy horse people (and this is not just the English disciplines).

[oldenmare]

ESG summed it up nicely for me:

"Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for an obvious Training level rider to wear a top hat; I'm old-fashioned enough to think the right to wear one needs to be earned, along with the shadbelly. I wear a hunt cap, derby or my Tipperary when showing, depending on the docility of the horse I'm riding. But if someone just can't bear the thought of not wearing a top hat at Intro, I say go ahead - life's too short. But I reserve the right to snigger. :cool:"

Of course, I reserve the right to snigger about many things....;)

[2ndyrgal]

You can buy them, but everyone knows they aren't real. And while nobody will point and snicker, they will talk about you in the ladies room.
And on the COTH bb.

[thatmoody]

You can buy them, but everyone knows they aren't real. And while nobody will point and snicker, they will talk about you in the ladies room.
And on the COTH bb.

Yes, and I suppose that's instructive, in its way - I certainly learned my lesson :winkgrin:. It's been years since someone I felt like someone was whispering about me, so I suppose I was due.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I think I would probably look even more dorky in a top hat than I already do in a helmet...

[Quest52]

please don't get your jodhpurs in a twist... I said don't fight the hypo for a reason. Forget the stupid purple heart... chalk it up to boyscout badges.

And no.. I would never walk up to someone at a show and rip their hat off, or say something to them about it... but what I'm asking... and what I thought I was conveying that I was asking before... is how do you all FEEL about this happening... not can it happen. And then, at what level are you making this observation from? Have you not competed at FEI? Maybe people who haven't done it doesn't care (majorly) and those who have, do (majorly).... or maybe not.

I don't need "I can buy one off ebay" ... I want to know if anyone else out there would like to hang onto some of the sacred nature of the tradition of the sport.

[Arizona DQ]

I want to know if anyone else out there would like to hang onto some of the sacred nature of the tradition of the sport.

Call me "Old Fashioned: ;) but I DO hold on to tradition and think we, as a culture, as too fast to throw everything out and spit on tradition - heck "If It feels good, do it".... Sure go ahead and wear the top hat and ride "like a monkey on a football", but do not expect any thread of respect from the rest of us!!! And if you ride well, too bad that you have no respect for those who came before you! :confused:

This generation knows it all and does everything better that those before them....:no: Why not wear those pants falling off your butt too??? :mad:

[Coreene]

I did "earn" it long, long ago (oh to be that young and thin). Thought "earning" it was hooey then, still think it's hooey now. Good lord, it's a hat. Life's short, and you only live once. Who cares, it's no big deal if someone wants to ride what-the-f%$k ever level in one. Earning your hunt colors? Absolutely. "Earning" the "right" to wear an item of apparel? Not so much.

[Quest52]

so then.. coreene... if it were a matter of a different colored collar that one would wear if they successfully competed at FEI... and then whomever just started wearing that same red collar... isn't that just the same thing as the hunter colors that are earned that you hold at a standard? (im not familiar with hunters)

[Coreene]

Hunt colors you earn when riding with your hunt, and to me it's a totally different thing. Some countries you can only wear the topper when you are in a specific level of class or above. Have no problem with that either, it's a written, actual rule. But this unwritten "rule" bollocks? Not.

[Coreene]

And who decides what constitutes "sucessfully" competing at FEI, if we're following that line of thought?

[ewells]

I personally believe you have to earn it. I would love to wear the Top Hat but I will wait to wear it untill I have earned it. The top hat will not be something I buy but something I have worked hard to acheive and that I can proudly show that I have reached a goal set for my self by wearing it. There are way too many people in Dressage that think they can Buy their way up the levels just spend more money and the skill, talent, hard work that it truly takes to advance up the levels will just be aquired like so many other items available for purchase these days.

[Coreene]

Ultimately, it's like singing "You say poTAYto and I say poTAHto," and never the twain shall meet. As long as the rulebook allows it, people who think it's just a hat will wear them. Others won't. Either way, have fun! :yes:

[BarbB]

This weekend I've seen plenty of people that I know have not competed at that level donning their top hats at training level.


At Training Level I would expect the judge to be laughing so hard that I couldn't get a fair score. 'course that could be a good thing! :lol:

[Quest52]

Ultimately, it's like singing "You say poTAYto and I say poTAHto," and never the twain shall meet. As long as the rulebook allows it, people who think it's just a hat will wear them. Others won't. Either way, have fun! :yes:

But again, this is not the question.

[monstrpony]

So, there I was, sitting in my Reading Room this morning, thumbing throught the latest Dover effort to kill the most trees, and I stumble across the page of kiddie clothing. There's a pic of shadbellies for small ones, with choice of pastel paisley lining, dontchaknow, and the munchkin modeling the coat was wearing braids, coming out of her GPA, with bright blue plaid ribbons on the ends.

Made me wonder if shadbellies are now required for leadline at Devon.

Me, I gave up worrying about who earns what in equestrian clothing a good while ago.

[Coreene]

But again, this is not the question.

The question has already been addressed.

[Sandy M]

[QUOTE=Coreene;4179385]I think people that get into a wad re what hat someone wears - and frighteningly, you do see it too often - must have an otherwise worry-free life. I mean, they'd have to, wouldn't they? To worry about something as trivial and random as what hat someone else wears, a hat which has eff all to do with their own life? Sweet bejayzus, it's a hat. It's not world peace/ [QUOTE]

Bless you, Coreene. Geesh. "Earn it." Guess we should all subscribe to Mr. Kierkgaard's (not Soren) little COTH opinion piece and regarding showing as a "privilege," too. Ummm...not. If they put on a show and I pay the entry fee, I have the right to show. If I want to make a fool of myself by showing at an inappropriate level, or...horrors!!!!...wearing a top hat at 2nd level, that's my problem, not anyone else's. As it is, when I had my "Old Reliable" I did show in a "bowler." Top hats tend to be more flattering in appearance than helmets or bowlers. Had I had the spare cash to buy one, I probably would have, and while I doubt I would have worn it below second level, that would be my choice and not one I would to impose on anyone else.On my newbie....I don't get on him without a helmet and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.

[class]

i don't care what other people wear. but if someone is going to wear something that screams "look at me, i'm awesome" then i will definitely pay attention and more carefully scrutinize their ride with higher expectations, since that is obviously what they want me to do. this goes for top hats, blinding browbands, colored pads and jackets, etc. if anyone is trying that hard to stand out, then stand out they will, for good or for bad.

[rugbygirl]

Isn't the line getting sort of blurred between what constitutes a "top hat" and what constitutes a derby-type? Admittedly a beginner (who will cling to my helmet regardless of level), I see a lot of HATS at low levels, but I am not sure that I would call them TOP hats. Some with rolled brims, some with rounded off tops, some that look a lot like the quintessential Magician's hat...my coach wears a flattish hat that has a kind of netting decoration around the brim from Training all the way to PSG (she usually rides a lot of horses in a show for clients).

When you say "Top Hat" could someone be more specific about the distinction? I am curious.

[Knothead]

Although for me personally, I wouldn't do a top hat until I was riding at the higher levels (which is just not going to happen)....I have to admit that when someone is dressed/fitted really well and the cherry on top is a top hat....it looks really sharp. But, honestly, I always thought of it as a 4th level or higher thing...probably formed that opinion because that's what someone told me early on...I, too, have seen them at schooling shows...why? why? why?

[Beasmom]

Why not? Aint' nobody's business but the hat wearer's.

I think the folks who wear top hats at lower levels probably feel pretty confident about their abilities and their horse and the hats do look nice. Confident enough to not give a damn about Other People's Opinions.

Really, people. Tend to your own knitting. it's allowed by the rules and hurts no one.

[TBDQ0328]

SO my question is how do you know that someone has "earned" it? What if someone has brought a horse up to 4th/PSG and is starting over with a younger horse in the lower levels? Or if someone new moved into your region and starts showing there? You don't know their riding background. Just because their riding at the lower levels doesn't mean that they haven't earned it.....and same for the opposite....just because they have a top hat doesn't mean that they have earned it. And I know that you can sometimes tell the difference by their riding, but not always. Are you condemning anyone who uses one at the lower levels at all? If not, how do you decide from watching who has earned it and who hasn't?

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I would wear a top hat with a peep emblem...that would fix the issue: didn't earn it, but letting you all know I didn't!

[Quest52]

I find it interesting (and beyond that... nothing else) that people are freely wielding in on the first portion of the question, but not if they themselves have ever ridden an FEI test?

There were two, other than myself, that I believe did???
I"m trying to figure if there is a consensus or not

[SillyHorse]

... I want to know if anyone else out there would like to hang onto some of the sacred nature of the tradition of the sport.
Sacred? I think that's a bit on the silly side.

And if it's so important to the discussion, yes I've ridden FEI many times. Bear in mind though, that one can say just about anything one wants to about oneself on a BB... and plenty do! :lol:

[Beasmom]

Who cares about consensus besides you? And why? If the "consensus" here condemns the wearing of toppers by members of the unwashed dressage masses, I'd still wear my topper if I so chose. Not prohibited, and don't give a rip concerning your opinion of my clothing.

If I'm riding badly and irritating my horse or riding well and making my horse a happy worker, THAT's more important than the hat I'm wearing!

[Beasmom]

Oh, I get it now. Dressage is a religion for Quest52!

Worshippers must wear what Pope Quest dictates or risk excommunication. Only Bishops of the High Church of Dressage may wear the sacred Top Hat.

[Coreene]

I find it interesting (and beyond that... nothing else) that people are freely wielding in on the first portion of the question, but not if they themselves have ever ridden an FEI test? Actually, I did answer that.

[grayarabpony]

People wearing top hats at training level? :lol::lol::lol:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think people look silly in top hats at all levels of riding.

[Beasmom]

Oh, I look Super in MY top hat! I wear it to the grocery store.

:winkgrin:

[ThatScaryChick]

Oh, I look Super in MY top hat! I wear it to the grocery store.

:winkgrin:

I wear my to bed! :lol:

[SillyHorse]

Oh, I look Super in MY top hat! I wear it to the grocery store.

:winkgrin:
Well, you earned it, so you need to be sure the folks at the Piggly Wiggly know it.
I wear my to bed! :lol:
While you say your sacred prayers, right?

[atr]

No I have not ridden FEI dressage yet, nor do I wear a top hat at the level I do ride at, though I would say I am now in the minority in my area, and really, I don't give a toot what other people's clothing choices are in the arena.

When you start coming out with ridiculous and insulting Purple Heart analogies and using the word "sacred" in relation to a dressage competition, I find it quite hard to take your view seriously.

[SisterToSoreFoot]

I agree with Coreene. I mean really, who give a flying one about what someone else is wearing? You all sound like a bunch of stuffy old colonels in an English gentleman's club. I thought the USA was supposed to be more relaxed about stuff like that.


HAHAHA!

I think tophats/bowlers are nonsense on top of a horse. I would be all for mandatory helmets at all levels, and even if I personally rode Grand Prix, I'd still wear one. Every time, every ride. And I am speaking as someone who is not a fearful rider (former eventer here), and as someone whose riding instructor was paralyzed in a riding accident. Wear the right safety gear for the sport--do it so you can remain able bodied for your horses, if nothing else. Sorry to get on the highhorse about this (and of course I'm helmeted on that high horse)...but I am all about safety, fashion be damned.

[Beasmom]

Oh, no! A Nannyist Safety Nazi!

I agree that helmets are the safest headgear for riding, and never (well, OK, SELDOM) get on a horse without one -- but at shows, occasionally I make an exception. Oh, and at the grocery store.

[FancyFree]

Oh, I look Super in MY top hat! I wear it to the grocery store.

:winkgrin:


So you're that lady wearing breeches, stiletoes and a top hat at the market? I've heard about you! :lol:

[Arizona DQ]

Personally, I wish we could get rid of the white breeches!!!:no:

[ESG]

You can, right now. Rules specify light or white breeches, not white. Even at upper levels. :yes:

[Arizona DQ]

You can, right now. Rules specify light or white breeches, not white. Even at upper levels. :yes:

I was really hoping for dark to hide some conformation faults (mine not the horse's)...;)

[ESG]

I feel your pain. The days when I could comfortably wear a size 26 breech are long gone. And since the seam in the fullseats/Euro seats make me look like I have the ass that ate Tokyo, those options are limited, too. :sigh:

[Quest52]

Cor: thats why I said that there were two... I was referring to your post.

whomever wrote about the Pope thing... made me snort in my very quiet office,I'm sure that was appreciated by all here. That was a good one.


And I have SEEEENNNN stilettos and white breeches!!! Oh yes... thats another snort inducer.

and on the purple heart thing... again.. I'm sorry for the drastic analogy, it is why I included the boyscout badge reference, but that was not the one that people wanted to run with. It was just an analogy, be it a poor one, made late at night.

[Arizona DQ]

I feel your pain. The days when I could comfortably wear a size 26 breech are long gone. And since the seam in the fullseats/Euro seats make me look like I have the ass that ate Tokyo, those options are limited, too. :sigh:

Pfffttttt. there goes my computer screen!!! :lol:

[slc2]

Anyone seen Big Man Japan?

[yventer]

HAHAHA!

I think tophats/bowlers are nonsense on top of a horse. I would be all for mandatory helmets at all levels, and even if I personally rode Grand Prix, I'd still wear one. Every time, every ride. And I am speaking as someone who is not a fearful rider (former eventer here), and as someone whose riding instructor was paralyzed in a riding accident. Wear the right safety gear for the sport--do it so you can remain able bodied for your horses, if nothing else. Sorry to get on the highhorse about this (and of course I'm helmeted on that high horse)...but I am all about safety, fashion be damned.

And I've been praised for wearing my ASTM helmet in warmup with my shadbelly, and told I should wear it for my test. By a big name official. I didn't that time - I was too conformist. But I really think the judges don't care. And so the next time I'm competing at PSG (fates willing), or any test where I'm wearing my shadbelly (CCI** +), I'm going to seriously consider it. I've had too many minor concussions over the years, and with the addition of menopause ;->, risking what few brain cells I have left for fashion seems frivolous.

(I got spun off at the walk just the other day, just out of the blue on a normally reliable horse. Even with my ASTM helmet, and a fairly soft fall, I had a headache afterwards. That helmet has been retired ;->)

[JRG]

For the record, I have not had the opportunity to ride FEI (yet). I don't wear a top hat. But I have the tails and topper sitting in garment bag waiting.

[Dressage_Julie]

The passions in this thread are obvious!

I have to agree with some of the "old school" comments made eariler. I earned my tophat. I bought it and it sat in a box until I made it to 4th level... same with the shadbelly; it sat in a garment bag until I rode my first PSG. Personally I wish this was a written rule- it probably isn't because it would be too hard to track down if someone who is riding training level now, had ever ridden at 4th or above and who has the time to do that! :winkgrin:
I do see this as a badge of honour... Maybe what is wrong is the fact that people think they can buy their way to a certain level, just by purchasing the horse and the "outfit" and then getting a 45% at PSG. It is also interesting to look at USDF awards and how many people have a silver and no bronze, no qualified rider but a gold. When I read this thread, I think it asks for opinions, I think we are all smart enough to realize that no rules will be changed as a result. I am not going to ask someone to remove a tophat if they didn't earn it. But I do think it is sad that the earning it is being forgotten. (for those that hate analogies stop reading now). I see it the same as not keeping score at kids sporting events. Everyone wants to think we are all equal and are winners... truth be told the real world isn't like that... you do not graduate from college and run a company like Microsoft. You have to pay your dues, and work your way up.:eek:

[Beasmom]

How do YOU know someone wearing a top hat has NOT earned it?

Some here do have passions running away with themselves -- and it's so unnecessary.

About Microsoft -- I think Bill Gates was a college dropout.

As for dues paying -- I've "paid dues" for years and years riding difficult second rate horses that weren't working out at my cousin's ranch, OTTB's and other horses that you DQ's with your "earned" top hats wouldn't have touched. I've slogged around at the lower levels with these horses for ages -- and some of them ended up kicking a** at shows.

I finally have a "nice" horse. Maybe, just maybe, we'll get to FEI. Miles to go. I'm gonna wear my top hat and enjoy the journey.

Is your nose out of joint over that? Too bad. MYOB. Shadbellies are restricted to the upper levels, top hats are not. So your shad is your "Badge of honor", not the hat. If I showed up to ride a TR or 1st level test in a shad, that WOULD be ridiculous!

[Quest52]

How do YOU know someone wearing a top hat has NOT earned it?

this was created saying that you know it... you just do. I've lived in this area for long enough to know who has done what and who has not. So, its about perosnal opinion and the FACT that you do KNOW the person has not comepted in FEI. Is that a better clarification??


About Microsoft -- I think Bill Gates was a college dropout.

there we go again, fighting the hypothetical.

As for dues paying -- I've "paid dues" for years and years riding difficult second rate horses that weren't working out at my cousin's ranch, OTTB's and other horses that you DQ's with your "earned" top hats wouldn't have touched. I've slogged around at the lower levels with these horses for ages -- and some of them ended up kicking a** at shows.

Ha. You don't know my background. I'm no million dollar privlidged baby that has had a finished horse handed to me. Please, watch what you choose to insult here. I've owned OTTBs, I've trained the most difficult of animals to do amazing things... so please--- don't think just because I have ridden FEI and accomplished things, that I only did it because it was handed to me.



Is your nose out of joint over that? Too bad. MYOB. Shadbellies are restricted to the upper levels, top hats are not. So your shad is your "Badge of honor", not the hat. If I showed up to ride a TR or 1st level test in a shad, that WOULD be ridiculous!

This is not what this is about. You can only wear the coat if you're riding FEI. This is about riding a lower level donning something that has triditionally just been for those who have reached the upper levels.... while riding at a lower level. Get it???

[Trakehner]

Cue the whine, "But I want it"

Not, I've earned it, worked for it or was awarded it...."I want it"

No scarlett hunt coat and calf tops for a beginner, even if they can buy them in the used riding store...."but I want the pretty red coat, it goes with my leopard britches so nicely".

I earned my yellow points on my coat and topper too! Haven't worn them for years (don't fit...damn McDonalds). I hate seeing the modern attitude of "but I like the look" riders...who hate the idea of actually having to work for what they wear. The modern rider who expects just the right saddle, pad, whip, trainer, boot, britches & bit will make them into an instant rider vs. years of butt in the saddle and hard work. No patience or discipline...they want it now and will look the part of where they wish to go before the actually earn it.

I had a friend who bought herself a shadbelly and topper for when she earned it...she kept it for years and when the day arrived, we were all there to applaud her long trek. She would have been embarrassed to be a poser, pretending she was something she was not. At a show this spring, I saw a 250 pounder slopping about on a poor horse, wearing a shadbelly coat (didn't know they made em' that big) and topper who couldn't trot a straight line to save her soul and was puffing like an engine. She liked the look...how obscene.

[Dressage_Julie]

I am not attacking you Beasmom, I am simply giving my opinion. I started in dressage on a pony, and could beat plenty of the the fancy warmbloods, no where in my post did I say anything about the quality of horse you start with... I do have a problem with those that buy made horses and cannot ride them, so I am not sure who you are fighting with that part of your comment.

My next horse I brought up from a 5 year old to I-1 thus earning my tophat and shadbelly. I think it does look ridiculous riding TR or first level in a tophat that some here admitted they haven't earned. *In my previous post I stated that I think this isn’t a written rule because it would be too hard to police*

My nose is not out of joint in anyway this thread asked for opinions and I gave mine. I am not going to tell anyone to remove, it is your choice. Personally I wouldn't make that choice.

Also you missed my point completely: Bill Gates did not get Microsoft dropped into his hands... he built the company from nothing. He didn't just inherit or buy it- he grew it into what it is today. Dressage is about the training, working your way up.

[Ajierene]

So...if you have to earn it, how do you earn it?

It seems to be that at what, 4th level or PSG you 'earn' your top hat. So...if I go out tomorrow, buy a Grand Prix schoolmaster, spend the next year going up the ranks and understanding just enough of dressage to make it to 4th level, have I earned the hat just as equally has someone who has a real understanding of dressage, riding, and is overall better than me and worked harder than me?

I think that's where some of us do not quite understand the concept of 'earning the top hat'. It is just a piece of apparel and the fact that you have competed at that level, and have the dressage test sheet, if not the record or ribbon, to prove it, isn't that all you need? And just because you were (the general 'you', not anyone on the board in particular) able to buy that schoolmaster or fancy horse and make it up the levels, are you more deserving than someone who 'bought' what they had through (whether or not they make it to that level) sweat and tears instead of money? I have nothing against people who have the money, just saying that it is easier to make it to the top with money than with sweat.

In hunting it is a bit different - earning your colors would be similar to getting the qualifications for PSG. In both scenarios you have been asked to perform certain tasks and have accomplished them. In both scenarios, money may have been a factor, but the tasks still must be accomplished.



Using the Bill Gates analogy. Yes, you have people like Bill Gates who built an empire.

You have people like my friend's dad who is working on building an empire, and has more education than Bill Gates. He is possibly just as smart, but he started his business later in life and is still in the building stage. He has also had some financial and personal setbacks that prevented him from devoting all his time to his business at some points over the years.

Then you have people like Paris Hilton, who will inherit their empire and possibly do nothing except squander the trust fund.

So -
Bill Gates is to Microsoft as say yventer is to dressage
My friend's dad is to his business as say Beasmom is to dressage
Paris Hilton is to Hilton Hotels as say the daughter of Anky is to dressage (I'm sure she will practice hard, but how many 5 year olds are on Grand Prix schoolmasters?)

So, who is more deserving? The one with the money? The ones that made it? The ones with financial/personal setbacks that prevented them from hitting that goal thus far?

This is why I don't put a lot of stock into what people wear. It means nothing to me - it is how they ride and conduct themselves that I draw my conclusions from.

[Beasmom]

Well said.

[JRG]

"just saying that it is easier to make it to the top with money than with sweat."

This kind of statement I find a little amusing. Not for the poster but because I have know a couple of people that bought GP horses and couldn't ride one side of them.

Just because there are people who can afford to purchase horses with the buttons doesn't mean they can ride it. You still have to sweat, to earn it. The horse doesn't know how much money you spent on him. If anyone things they can just pop on a GP horse and make it go they way they need to go is just absurde if you don't know how to ride it.

[Hazelnut]

"just saying that it is easier to make it to the top with money than with sweat."

This kind of statement I find a little amusing. Not for the poster but because I have know a couple of people that bought GP horses and couldn't ride one side of them.

Just because there are people who can afford to purchase horses with the buttons doesn't mean they can ride it. You still have to sweat, to earn it. The horse doesn't know how much money you spent on him. If anyone things they can just pop on a GP horse and make it go they way they need to go is just absurde if you don't know how to ride it.

True dat.

[Ajierene]

"just saying that it is easier to make it to the top with money than with sweat."

This kind of statement I find a little amusing. Not for the poster but because I have know a couple of people that bought GP horses and couldn't ride one side of them.

Just because there are people who can afford to purchase horses with the buttons doesn't mean they can ride it. You still have to sweat, to earn it. The horse doesn't know how much money you spent on him. If anyone things they can just pop on a GP horse and make it go they way they need to go is just absurde if you don't know how to ride it.

I can see what your saying, but to clarify my point. You work hard and practice and you have the money to buy a GP Schoolmaster after 2 years of riding and getting to say 1st level on your own.

You friend has no money, practiced just as hard as you and got to 1st level on their own....but did not have the money to buy that GP horse and had to get either a horse off the track, out of an auction or an unbroke young horse.

So two years later, your at 4th level and your friend is back at 1st with their new horse. Keep in mind, that money can also bring more opportunities to show, which helps elevate your status more quickly. Yes, some people may dump all their money into a nice horse and not have any left over to show, but they are a tiny minority. That's the difference I am talking about - easier with money.

[Coreene]

So who are the EIC (Earn It Crowd) more upset with, the person showing 1st or 2nd in a topper who didn't make what the EIC considers to be the required journey up the levels before wearing the holy hat, or the person who bought an FEI schoolmaster and didn't make the required slog?

[class]

i am not upset with anyone. but i say when you get to the fei levels, you get your top hat. period. i don't really care how you get to the fei levels or how hard it is for you or how difficult/poorly conformed your horse is.

[Beasmom]

the wearing of your shadbelly is dictated by the rules. That is restricted to the upper levels. As far as the rules are concerned, headwear is a personal choice. Unless YOU can change the rules to "protect" your supposed exclusive "right" to wear a top hat, that's the way it is.

I just may wear my topper this weekend at first level. PFBTBTBTBTB! Just to p*ss y'all off!

:p

[quietann]

HAHAHA!

I think tophats/bowlers are nonsense on top of a horse. I would be all for mandatory helmets at all levels, and even if I personally rode Grand Prix, I'd still wear one. Every time, every ride. And I am speaking as someone who is not a fearful rider (former eventer here), and as someone whose riding instructor was paralyzed in a riding accident. Wear the right safety gear for the sport--do it so you can remain able bodied for your horses, if nothing else. Sorry to get on the highhorse about this (and of course I'm helmeted on that high horse)...but I am all about safety, fashion be damned.

Agree completely; my helmet's saved my head more than a few times... Not on the current horse; she has never tried to throw me and I've never fallen from her, but she does have those occasional Hot Morgan moments and I am not taking any chances.

/rant on

So yeah, I am a helmet nazi. Drives me crazy to see people at shows without them, especially when the show flyer states that ASTM certified helmets are required. Drives me crazy to see BNTs not requiring them in their barns, or wink-winking at certain riders who are "allowed" not to ride in them, or only enforcing a helmets-required policy when outsiders are visiting, "to set a good example."

"Oh, they're so unfashionable and they make my head look so weird!" So what... your head will look a whole lot weirder if your horse tosses you onto it :eek:

"Oh, Horsie is so good, he'll never throw me!" Um, Horsie is a horse and unless he's dead, he just might, and you don't get to choose what part of your body to land on...

/rant off

[Beasmom]

If the show flyer requires ASTM helmets, then anyone breaching that rule should be DQ'ed. I've only seen such requirements at shows with over-fences classes.

Rules is rules. Show management can require whatever safety equipment they like.

Here in Colorado, we do not have helmet laws for bikers. Do I think they are foolish not to wear one? Yes I do, but they are allowed to ride their motorcycles bare-headed if they so choose. For now, it's still a free country...

[Trakehner]

i am not upset with anyone. but i say when you get to the fei levels, you get your top hat. period. i don't really care how you get to the fei levels or how hard it is for you or how difficult/poorly conformed your horse is.

Yep, I don't care if the local DQ bought a top horse or brought it up on their lonesome...it's that they are showing at the level where the coat is appropriate. The horse may know PSG...if the rider's a mouthbreather who just about knows for sure you face the skinny end...they still can't ride it. There are a few very wealthy hunter/jumpers who's mommies bought them very expensive horses and lessons...they still can't win worth diddles.

In England, people buy horses who have already earned their way into the HOYS show...kinda' sad to not do it yourself...some people don't care and have the money to pretend they earned it.

Talent shows through. A poser is just sad...it's worse when they have an attitude not befitting their work and talent (besides either marrying well or having an idiot parent to pay for them).

[Arizona DQ]

I cannot control what anyone wears on their head, topper or not. But that person better have thick skin if they are wearing a top hat and barely making it around the arena in a training level test correctly. I guarantee there will be sniggers. :winkgrin: The person who has "earned it "probably would not wear "it" in a T level test on a newly started horse, but if they did, everyone could certainly see the ability of said rider.

Certainly not worth getting our panties in a wad and I am sure we all are just having fun with this thread....;) (I am having a pretty quiet day at work.... and can't find any other fun threads..)

[Coreene]

...I am wearing a propeller beanie instead. :cool:

[whicker]

Coreene's propeller beanie actually is a solar fan beanie!!!

It blows cool 100 degree air over one's head as one rides! There is an automatic device that increases the fan when the rider is under stress! Detects the amount of sweat and angst!

Comes in all the correct hues and saturations to match the coat. Tin foil cover also available to block out death rays and government control mind rays. Silver and tooling extra in the Parade model!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Ambrey]

You're only allowed a propeller beanie if you wear your jacket even when it's waived. Haven't you read the rules?

[JRG]

You're only allowed a propeller beanie if you wear your jacket even when it's waived. Haven't you read the rules?

And the jacket has to be in the proper section of the colour wheel.

[quietann]

If the show flyer requires ASTM helmets, then anyone breaching that rule should be DQ'ed. I've only seen such requirements at shows with over-fences classes.

Rules is rules. Show management can require whatever safety equipment they like.

Here in Colorado, we do not have helmet laws for bikers. Do I think they are foolish not to wear one? Yes I do, but they are allowed to ride their motorcycles bare-headed if they so choose. For now, it's still a free country...

At least in MA and NH (where I have shown), the helmet requirement is insurance-related. I don't know if it's possible for a show venue/organization or boarding facility to even get insurance if there isn't a helmets-required policy. No one's ever eliminated for not wearing a helmet, AFAIK, unless they are a kid or it's an over-fences class. But the recognized, dressage-only shows also (mostly) require helmets.... it's just not enforced.

There are no helmet laws for motorcyclists in NH, either. Of course, if someone gets a head injury, and needs a lot of care, they'll try to ship them off to MA where the public benefits are greater. (Literally. I know a couple of NH people, family members of folks with severe head injuries, who were told by their social workers that the only way to get anything beyond minimal rehab would be to move the person to MA and wait for them to gain MA residency. OTOH, MA required NH residents who work in MA to pay MA income tax, so maybe it all comes out in the wash...)

[whitewolfe001]

Before the advent of the double bridle at Third Level, I had always thought that the top hat was appropriate for Fourth Level (and beyond, of course.) At least it seemed that way in my neck of the woods, at least. Fourth Level being the last stop before PSG.... 4th level riders could use the double bridle and the top hat seemed to go along with it.

It made sense to me at the time.... you could spot 'em from a mile away.... riders in hunt caps were 3rd level or below, riders with double bridle and top hat were in the transition phase to FEI (fourth level) and anyone in shadbelly was of course FEI.

So, yeah, the only people that owned a top hat were at least 4th level.

I don't love seeing the top hat at lower levels. I personally feel you should 'earn it' if you're going to wear it. Nothing looks more ridiculous than an obviously poor rider, decked out to the nines including her top hat. It just screams "I've got more money than talent or determination."

I especially like it when I see upper level people wearing a hunt cap when doing the lower level tests on their young horses. It strikes me as unpretentious.

[BaroquePony]

Nothing looks more ridiculous than an obviously poor rider, decked out to the nines including her top hat. It just screams "I've got more money than talent or determination."

Hhmmm, no wearing your spurs upside down looks more ridiculous.

[slc2]

Perhaps, but one can see the tophat even when one is drunk.

[Ambrey]

Perhaps, but one can see the tophat even when one is drunk.

This line would have been so much better followed by "(ask me how I know this...)"

[egontoast]

Perhaps, but one can see the tophat even when one is drunk.


That one is getting a little tired, don't you think? Either that or you are in need of an intervention.:no:

[jvanrens]

...I am wearing a propeller beanie instead. :cool:

Just so long as the wearing of the propeller beanie is with your dressage saddle and not your western! :mad: That would be just too tacky!!! :winkgrin::lol:

[JSwan]

I Earning your hunt colors? Absolutely. "Earning" the "right" to wear an item of apparel? Not so much.

Coreene - but not matter how well it was explained to her - Ajereene could not comprehend that the tops of hunt boots ARE earned and a symbol of expertise and accomplishment. Her attitude was screw you. Wonderful display of sportsmanship and respect for the specified attire for another discipline.

What gets me about these discussions is that people are awfully focused on a look - the outward trappings of proficiency or expertise. It's not just an item of apparel - it still signifies a high level of expertise.

To me - they are pretentious poseurs. A rider modestly turned out and who rides well wants us to focus on the horse and the equitation. A rider wearing the geegaws of expertise and then flobs around pretending is absolutely ridiculous. A caricature.

I don't cry myself to sleep at night but I do notice that the quality of the riding does not appear to improve with the donning of the top hat. Seems like a lot of people are awfully interested in looking the part but not interested in the work necessary to BE the part. Just skip over the hard stuff and wear the cool attire and voila - instant expert. :lol:

I think that's what gets me - the attitude. If the person is a kick ass rider they can get away with flouting convention. But the attitude is just really poor sportsmanship and ignorance.

[Coreene]

Just so long as the wearing of the propeller beanie is with your dressage saddle and not your western! :mad: That would be just too tacky!!! :winkgrin::lol:

With my western saddle, I wear a big ol' shit eatin' grin because I just think it's too divine for words. :lol: But never, ever, ever do I wear patent topped boots - JSwan, I promise. On my honor, until I have earned them in the hunt field. Which will be never, of course, but a girl can dream. ;) I could have Walter Lundgrun and ham biscuits.

[Ajierene]

Coreene - but not matter how well it was explained to her - Ajereene could not comprehend that the tops of hunt boots ARE earned and a symbol of expertise and accomplishment. Her attitude was screw you. Wonderful display of sportsmanship and respect for the specified attire for another discipline.

Except they are not a part of earning your colors. In some hunts only the staff wears hunt top boots. In some hunts all men, regardless of whether or not they earned their colors, are required to wear them. In some hunts they are worn by people who have earned their colors and not required of other hunt members, though other hunt members are allowed to wear them.

Hunt top boots are not the same as earning your colors in a hunt.

[JSwan]

Yes they are.

Individual hunts may specify a particular detail that is unique to that hunt (like rust britches, or a green coat, or buttons) - but your post is not accurate.

A woman, for example would NEVER wear them unless she was staff or a Master - and only with white britches. (and what is appropriate in the US may not be considered appropriate in the UK - particularly females wearing scarlet.)

There is no scenario in which tan topped boots are appropriate for a female to wear outside the hunt field - unless it is part of the LIVERY of the barn.

You are going to want to refresh your memory on the past discussions on this sport or go back to the foxhunting forum and ask again.

This is what I mean about people not knowing the tradition, history and what different items represent - and how wearing or not wearing them can demonstrate ignorance or respect. Particularly for people who are starting out.

I do appreciate that on some level, it is just plain silly to argue over a darn hat. Dogged adherence to 'tradition' can appear to be an attempt to be exclusive. That's really not the case. Today's rider is very likely to alter tradition a great deal by simply wearing a safety helmet instead of a hunt cap or bowler. I have not seen anyone swooning over that sight.

Some people still think that part of becoming a good horseman is learning. Not memorizing a test or course, and not focusing on looking the part of an expert or accomplished rider. But becoming one.

The ability to write a check for attire should not be confused with expertise. Proficiency doesn't arrive shrink-wrapped from UPS and placed on your doorstep.

I think riders should still earn their spurs, tails and a top hat. Because those things are supposed to become appropriate when the rider has acquired the knowledge, skills and experience. And I bet if the horses were polled they'd prefer their owners spent money on lessons instead of expensive clothing.

In case you're wondering - I wear neither a top hat nor tan topped boots. And I sure as heck would not co-opt the trappings of expertise from another discipline and use them in my own - and cop an attitude when its participants attempt to educate and inform.



Except they are not a part of earning your colors. In some hunts only the staff wears hunt top boots. In some hunts all men, regardless of whether or not they earned their colors, are required to wear them. In some hunts they are worn by people who have earned their colors and not required of other hunt members, though other hunt members are allowed to wear them.

Hunt top boots are not the same as earning your colors in a hunt.

[Quest52]

JSwan... I hope you don't mind me holding your comment hostage in my signature. I think your way of putting it is PERFECT.

[Dressage Art]

I find it interesting (and beyond that... nothing else) that people are freely wielding in on the first portion of the question, but not if they themselves have ever ridden an FEI test?Actually, I did answer that.
I answered that as well. And from my experience I can tell you that there is a Grand Canyon in riding a schoolmaster on FEI and training your own horse to FEI. The skill difference is huge! If there was some kind of uniform article that can be awarded to trainers who trained their own horses to FEI = I would respect it. If that would be a top hat = I would respect it.

I also give different respect to people who are riding OTTB on Training Level that they trained themselves verses people who are riding FEI schoolmasters on Training Level. That does mean something to me.

Shadbelly you have to earn and there are no arguing about that. Hat is just an article of clothing since there is no rule that it can NOT be worn below FEI. If you want to respect the traditions, respect shadbelly then and ease up on the top hat.

[PennyChrome]

You have to earn it!
I was always taught that it was VERY DISRESPECTFUL to the JUDGE to be improperly turned out for any event. It's not just stuffy and uptight to be traditional, it shows pride and respect for the sport. Yes, if you ride above 4th (I sure don't) level, you can wear your top hat with pride and 'rest on your laurels' so to speak. Now the general rule of thumb is that derby's are optional at 3rd, though most people don't abide by that. Wear a tophat at the lower levels if you are trying to draw attention to the fact that you think you ride better than you actually do, but keep in mind that if you wore a Pink to a foxhunt and you weren't a member of the Hunt Club you wouldn't be allowed to ride at all! Would you were beige breeches and top boots? Would you braid a dressage horses tail? Throw tradition out the window if you want to show off - just remember that you are being judged, and that the judge appreciates proper turnout.

[wildlifer]

Well, I'm a helmet nazi, so I don't think the hats are appropriate for riding anyway, but I do feel that way about the white breeches/white gloves. If you aren't riding above 4th level, I think white breeches just look pretentious and white gloves just show the judge that your hands are all over the place.

[Ambrey]

Well, I'm a helmet nazi, so I don't think the hats are appropriate for riding anyway, but I do feel that way about the white breeches/white gloves. If you aren't riding above 4th level, I think white breeches just look pretentious and white gloves just show the judge that your hands are all over the place.

White or light color breeches are required at all levels. I've never seen a show in which the vast majority of ll riders were not wearing white breeches!

[Beasmom]

I abide by the rules of USEF. Top hats and derbies are allowed at all levels. So are helmets. Anything else is someone's opinion, and therefore not binding.

Wear whatever you want that isn't specifically prohibited by the rules. Yes, even extra body piercings, if you're wiling to take the risk of injury and look stupid. And yes, that's my OPINION. it isn't law, or a rule. Just an opinion.

So, in my OPINION, it's OK to wear a topper or derby at any level if you like. You are free to be offended by that. Or not.

I have NEVER gotten a negative comment regarding my turnout from any judge. About my riding or my horse; yes, but never the turnout. It's a horse show, not a fashion show!

[bort84]

Well, I'm a helmet nazi, so I don't think the hats are appropriate for riding anyway, but I do feel that way about the white breeches/white gloves. If you aren't riding above 4th level, I think white breeches just look pretentious and white gloves just show the judge that your hands are all over the place.

That's odd... It's considered pretty traditional in dressage to wear white breeches and gloves. I think it looks very un-dressage to show up without white breeches and gloves, and I don't think there's a tradition like there is with top hats. And really, at an outdoor show (like most dressage shows), the white gloves don't show off your hands all that much more than black. Though in a coliseum at night, they do make a noticeable difference.

[PennyChrome]

I agree, definitely white breeches always if you have them. White gloves are very nice turnout, but you have to be confident in your hands! Black are perfectly acceptable if you don't want to draw attention to your hands

[Ambrey]

A good judge is going to be able to see your hands no matter what color your gloves are. Wear what you want ;)

[SillyHorse]

Would you were beige breeches and top boots?
Beige breeches, sure. I have shown in them many times, and most certainly will again.

Would you braid a dressage horses tail? Well, why not? I love the look of a braided tail, and I know how to do it. I just might braid the silly horse's tail at our next show. Take THAT, all you railbirds! :p

[HollysHobbies]

I think braided tails look very pretty, but I was always taught braiding the tail wasn't ALLOWED at recognized dressage shows. So, just check the rulebook on that one! ;)

[Quest52]

its all about the unspoken rules people...

I think its respect for the sport. No reason to trounce all over traditional just to do it your own way. Dressage is a VERY traditional sport.. can we not respect it for what it is and its heritage?

[Ambrey]

its all about the unspoken rules people...

I think its respect for the sport. No reason to trounce all over traditional just to do it your own way. Dressage is a VERY traditional sport.. can we not respect it for what it is and its heritage?

Says who though? There are traditions in dressage, and there is change. Who is to say which traditions stay (light colored breeches, conservative jackets, braiding) and which go by the wayside?

It seems to me that those who are really against the concept of some change are in the minority. Most are more focused on the riding than the tradition, and do not care what others wear.

p.s. The problem about unspoken rules is that if people don't follow them, you have no recourse except to become bitter and resentful- not exactly a positive move for yourself ;)

[Quest52]

p.s. The problem about unspoken rules is that if people don't follow them, you have no recourse except to become bitter and resentful- not exactly a positive move for yourself ;)

believe me.. this doesn't keep me up at night. I've scribed for a few judges, and ridden for numerous and they always speak about proper turnout. It was a question poised a while ago... its nothing that I focus on. The discussion is just that... something to talk about because there is no black and white.

[thatmoody]

Another problem with unspoken rules is that not everyone knows them, or knows the same version of them. I had never heard the white breeches for 4th or above, for instance. I always wear white breeches (well, except for the one time when I spilled coffee all over them and had to change into my light beige spare pair!). They make my butt look awful, though - I wish I could wear something else, but I don't...and then I wonder why I just can't wear my conservative grey breeches...They just seem a tad too dark for me, though.

[Beasmom]

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, we can do away with the butler suits, and tradition be damned. It's sport, we work hard, sweat, and most parts of this country (certainly the part I live in) has higher extremes of temperature than most of Europe.

(Well, maybe not this year!)

Still, when you see people doing the 100 meter dash in business suits, then I'll agree that riding in these silly, outdated outfits is perfectly reasonable.

Quest, unspoken rules don't matter a hill of beans. Written rules do. So, for the time being, I suffer and wear the damned coat and light breeches to ride a barnyard animal in a sandbox.

[Dressage Art]

Still, when you see people doing the 100 meter dash in business suits, then I'll agree that riding in these silly, outdated outfits is perfectly reasonable.Good one! :lol:

[Beasmom]

Quest, I too have scribed for many, many judges. I have heard NO negative comments about turnout, and only one or two remarks on a particularly pretty turnout.

The question was "posed", not poised.

And there IS no black and white -- except in what we're expected to wear.

black & white black & white black & white!

[Dame M. Dimblekins]

In my youth, I was once invited to a hunt weekend with a friend who hadn't ridden before but wanted to look the part. She loved the look of black and brown, remarked it reminded her of a good black and tan. So she had a beautiful pair of topped boots made for the occasion. The outfitter could have warned her. I suspect though he just smiled. The first day out, she was horsed accordingly. Rather messy that was.

Within the confines of the rules, one is free to wear whatever they chose. Spectators are free to form and express their own opinions about one's turnout. If one cares a fig what others think, they will behave in a conservative manner. If not, they won't. It seems disingenuous to flaunt tradition yet be troubled by the consequences.

It is not more complicated than that, is it?

[Dressage_Julie]

In my opinion I think those who have earned the right to wear the top hat are the ones who care about the tradition. I am willing to bet that those that do not care about the tradition are the ones that haven't earned the right (competed at 4th level or above). I earned my tophat, so it does bother me... but as mentioned there is nothing we can do about it besides create awareness on a forum like this.

I will ride in colored wraps at home and leopard saddle pad, however I would NEVER ride in either at a show... In my opinion it is disrespectful. Others can do what they want, but I think people will take note of it.

[Quest52]

its been silent for a while now... all that activity and then a statement like that and silence....

speaks volumes.

[Ajierene]

Within the confines of the rules, one is free to wear whatever they chose. Spectators are free to form and express their own opinions about one's turnout. If one cares a fig what others think, they will behave in a conservative manner. If not, they won't. It seems disingenuous to flaunt tradition yet be troubled by the consequences.

It is not more complicated than that, is it?

There's where the difference is for some people. I don't care what others think about what I wear. What I do, what my skills are, yes. What I wear, no. I don't care about what other people wear. What they do, what their skills are, yes.

I judge people by the content of their character, not the clothes on their back (or head). (adapted from a Martin Luther King Jr quote).

[Coreene]

its been silent for a while now... all that activity and then a statement like that and silence....

speaks volumes.It's a thread that went buh-bye over a month ago until someone had to bump it up to say "me too!" - before that, we were talking about propeller beanies. As in, you know, we were pretty much talked out already. A month ago.

As for me, I did "earn" the damn hat and think that the unwritten rule is a load of old bollocks.

[Ambrey]

As for me, I did "earn" the damn hat and think that the unwritten rule is a load of old bollocks.

A load of old bollocks wearing a propeller beanie?

[slc2]

"and think the unwritten rule is a load of bollocks"

I like tradition. Forms a sort of pleasant, soothing glue in between the chaos in our lives, which otherwise looks something like The Langoliers on graph paper. All the jobs go to China, it's proper to wear a top hat. Every plastics factory and rubber factory in America moves to Mexico, it's still proper to wear a tophat.

Kinda soothingly pleasant.

I don't mind if someone else doesn't like it.

[HollysHobbies]

Wouldn't it rock if USDF awarded you a $400 top hat once you had earned your two "60%" scores at 4th level?! :lol::lol::lol:

Hey, I'm wearing a helmet until told I should do otherwise by my trainer, (I just did my first 2 recognized 2nd level tests, and I'm so proud of finally getting there) I guess I don't have a problem with earning it, personally, but the "holier than thou" tone of some earlier posts is disheartening, somehow. I kind of feel like an underling all of a sudden.

I do think the tophat looks better and more formal/sharper somehow, for those riding third or fourth level tests...

[SillyHorse]

I think braided tails look very pretty, but I was always taught braiding the tail wasn't ALLOWED at recognized dressage shows. So, just check the rulebook on that one! ;)
Unfortunately, you were always taught wrong. Maybe you're the one who should be checking the rulebook. ;)

DR121 Saddlery and Equipment.
7. Blah blah blah... Braiding of the horse’s mane and tail, however, is permitted.

[Dressage Art]

Wouldn't it rock if USDF awarded you a $400 top hat once you had earned your two "60%" scores at 4th level?! :lol::lol::lol: Brilliant! I have four of those scores in 2009 already = can I please get a free hat now!

[slc2]

There is no rule against braiding a horse's tail, Hollyshobby. There never has been one.

Some people don't like to do it as they feel it will negatively affect how the horse carries his tail. I have never seen any horse carry its tail crooked because of braiding. Because Christine Stuckelberger often used to show with her horses' tails braided in international competitions, shows it is not against the rules. It's just a choice.

I think most people are busy enough getting the horse tacked up and the mane braided that tail braiding has sort of petered out. It also is rather difficult, compared to braiding the mane. There is also the tradition of shaving the sides of the horse's tail to show off the hind quarters, and once someone does that, it's pretty hard to braid the tail.

There is in fact, no tradition against it either.

Most of the traditions in dressage in America, have crept over from the world of formal hunt attire, which originally just was, well, attire, and a world some people seem to disdain as overly restrictive in fashion, blah blah blah. Somehow as the economy sputters and things seem to be going to hell in a bucket, whether someone declares a top hat is an article of attire reserved for the more experienced rider, just really does not somehow get me excited about their holier than thou-ness.

And to be perfectly honest, I see no reason why an organization would provide someone with a 400 dollar piece of attire because they got some scores - at any level. The achievement should be reward enough itself, and people should pay for their own hats.

In fact, unless I recall incorrectly, one is perfectly free, according to the rules, to do all the upper level classes, even the FEI CDI's, in a short coat and NOT a top hat.

[HollysHobbies]

SLC and SillyHorse--I was just expressing that I thought braided tails were lovely, but wasn't sure if they were allowed. I've heard of people being excused for wearing a colored shirt, so I just didn't want you to get eliminated.;)

Top hat comment was a joke.

Just because you've earned your tophat doesn't mean you've earned my respect.

So few people have manners or honor. Sure glad I don't have you two at my barn. Talk about unnecessary drama.

[CatOnLap]

(blows dust off the first dressage rulebook she owned) Now, Canadians have not always exactly copied american rules, but they''ve been pretty close.

In the Canadian rulebook from 1987, it was COMPULSORY to wear a tophat or bowler at any FEI level and helmets were not allowed.

It was also against the rules to braid the tail. It stated braiding of manes was allowed, (but not compulsory, roached manes were allowed) but that any other article of saddlery or dress specifically not allowed, was forbidden ( including braided tails, any bling at all, such as rhinestones, ribbons, any colour except black and white at the FEI levels, and at the lower levels white or light tan breeches only and a black or dark coat only with a hunt cap, bowler or tophat).

The 1987 rulebook also stated that above (the equivalent of) second level, double bridles were compulsory.

So tophats and tails have always been allowed at lower levels, and tail braiding has been forbidden in the past.

How rules change over 20 years!

[SillyHorse]

Sure glad I don't have you two at my barn. Talk about unnecessary drama.
And I'm sure glad I'm not at a barn where people are giving incorrect information about the rules.

[slc2]

Unnecessary drama? You said it was against the rules to braid the tail. We said it wasn't. There isn't any drama. You just said something, we said you were wrong.

[egontoast]

As an aside, what headware would be appropriate for rounding up delinquent heifers with your dressage horse?

Follow up question:

Should you braid for that? I can't find anything in the rules. They can't cover every eventuality, I guess.:confused:

[fiona]

Mabel Dimblekins Rules for the Unruly*

Rule 372
When rounding up unruly heifers with your dressage horse a bona fide fedora is mandatory.

Rule 372a appendage 7/sec 8b
Plaiting is considered vulgar when rounding up unruly heifers unless in full ceremonial dress in the presence of the Akond of Swat. A ceremonial headdress must replace the Fedora in this instance.

Do hope that helps, best not mention to Mabs that you didn't actually read the rules, like ever.


(*iban:44448760098: amazon vintage dept $6,000, signed)

[Coreene]

Eggy, when I take my dressage WB sorting in my Pimp My Ride silver show saddle, I wear a Mommy N Me matching Viking Helmet, which has same basketweave tooling and silver as the saddle. I get a long single braid from Sally Beauty Supply to wear on my head, and borrow an official AQHA World Championship tail extension for Oliver. Tiny braids in that with silver ribbons.

[Ambrey]

Well, I have always assumed that when I finally figure out a way to take Smokey to the ranch to play with cows, I will do so in my dressage saddle and black microsuede helmet. Maybe I'll add an "oh $hit" strap ;)

[egontoast]

Coreene, I have it from reliable sources that you aren't kidding about your cattle sorting activities ( I hope it was in an enclosed space!) however I still think a photograph would be helpful at this point.:cool:

And now we shall be chastised [edit], all for the crime of derailing another very serious and highly important subject. :)

[CatOnLap]

well, at least talking horses haven't added their two cents about the gypsy cow. With or without braided tails and fedoras.

[egontoast]

maybe Cow's Mom will post!

[Coreene]

Eggy, because you know it is all about the Pimp My Ride aspect, the photo must wait for the double ear ferrule headstall, which hopefully eBay shall grant me later today. Then, of course, I need matching Pimp Steering reins. Oliver is very firm about these things. After all, big black WB or not, rumor has it that his maternal grandpappy was a World Champion Working Cow Horse of the Paint Persuasion. ;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Wow, Coreene. I was so puffed up today in our maiden ride with the skull and crossbones saddle pad...but nothing compares to the bling you sport.

*sigh* always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

[Ambrey]

DGRH, e-bay is your friend. All the bling a girl could want at bargain prices ;)

Smokey the dressage tacked plow horse and Oliver the cowhorse tacked dressage horse had a discussion about e-bay addicted moms today.

[Coreene]

Ollie told Smokey he had earned his bling, Smokey told Ollie he had earned his pimp-o-rama dressage wardrobe, and both of them laughed hysterically and enjoyed the Aerosmith coming from the wedding up the hill.

[Velvet]

I don't see why everyone wants to wear one at the lower levels. They generally look pretty ugly on most people at the upper levels. Then again, I still think the best thing to wear is an old fashioned thick velvet hunt cap, at the lower levels. I can appreciate a derby at second and third, to mix it up. But even though the rules allow it, I prefer top hats at the upper levels--it looks best with tails.

Then again, that's just me. Since people wanted to wear it at the lower levels and pushed for the rule change, I can only guess it's because they gave up the hope of making it to the upper levels and just wanted the fun of wearing one. It's okay, but as I said before, I don't think they're flattering and wearing one does not make you an upper level rider, so I don't really get it.

JMHO

[Velvet]

I think there is a line we don't want to cross, just because it's a "sport" where we sweat, etc. I honestly can't say I'd want to see dressage performed in body hugging spandex (like the vaulters wear). Nor would I like to see tube tops, etc. in the ring. ;)

If you go back to TRADITION, people can just go back 50-60 years. In those days, black and white was not the rule, neither was the coat cut differently than a regular hunt coat. People wore tweed, etc., at the lower levels all the time, and light or rust colored breeches. Oh how I long for that. It's allowed, but I think everyone is afraid to stand out until the tide turns. We need more individuals in this sport and fewer lemmings!

[Ambrey]

Because everyone tells us- if we stand out, everyone will notice we're not doing it right!

As though everyone else is doing it right ;)

Lemmings, one and all. Lemmings, in SLC's words, "riding livestock around in circles" and thinking we're doing something really important.

[Dressage Art]

We need more individuals in this sport and fewer lemmings!ditto!

[SillyHorse]

I think there is a line we don't want to cross, just because it's a "sport" where we sweat, etc. I honestly can't say I'd want to see dressage performed in body hugging spandex (like the vaulters wear). Nor would I like to see tube tops, etc. in the ring. ;)
But there's a lot of middle ground between a penguin outfit and spandex. I think the jumpers finally got it right. Except for the classics, most of them go into the ring in clothes appropriate for riding: breeches and boots, and a neat polo shirt.

Our schooling show series requires shirts with collars and short or long sleeves. That pretty much eliminates the spandex and tube tops. Everyone who chooses not to dress formally looks sharp.