Help me help this horse!

[caryledee]

There is a trainer at my barn who owns a horse he is planning to send back to the track after over 2 years off. The horse has literally been standing in his stall (getting turned out every few days) for months now. He is overweight and out of shape. He also had a knee injury at one point and had surgery on it. This horse is big and heavy; he is 7 years old and still a maiden. The trainer believes he can get this horse back to the races in 2 months time. I know very little about training horses for the track, but I would have a hard time getting him ready for the show ring in 2 months! To me, this whole situation spells a disaster. Unfortunately, I am emotionally attached to this horse. I spent last summer training him to show and sell as a hunter, but his owner is asking an outrageous price for him and I can't find a buyer. The trainer's plan is to race him 3 times, win $15k back and then retire him. I really think this guy is delusional!

My question is: is there anything I can do to stop this? If he races him for a price, can I claim him or do I need a trainer to do that? Does he have to show a certain level of fitness to run or will the track allow him to run if he is not conditioned properly.

I really appreciate any help or advice you could give me; this horse is one of the kindest animals I've ever been around and he doesn't deserve to be used up like this.

[tbracer65]

I guess I'll be the first to respond.....

Unfortunately (for you) this happens more often than you would think. I know you have an emotional attachment to this particular horse, but it all comes down in the end that it's his horse & he can do whatever he pleases. The horse getting turned out every few days sounds like good lay-up to me as I know people that just stick them in the stall & forget about them....

Not that it matters..but did this horse show any promise before he injured himself? He might have just had a chip taken out or a fracture that needed a lot of time. I just had a gelding with a pretty bad cannon bone fracture that actually cracked it being stupid walking in the shedrow with a new groom -- he had to have a year & a 1/2 off. Mine's still a maiden, but ran MSW & consistently hit the board racking up a little over $25,000 in under 10 starts & we'll probably bring him back & take a huge drop to make it easier on him. Granted he's only 5 & 7 is a little later to be brought back -- but again, it HAS happened before.

As for coming back in 2 months -- have also seen that done. Each horse is an individual in how they get in shape. The "norm" seems to be 30 days galloping & then start breezing. I've seen trainers take horses off of a year layoff & breeze them first day on the track 3/8's & then start galloping after that & have them running within a month & 1/2. Every trainer is different. Me, I always put at LEAST 30 days of galloping on the horse before their first work...which is always a slow non-asking breeze alone.

As for the claiming -- you cannot claim the horse yourself. You'll have to have a trainer claim him for you. Different tracks have different rules, so you'll have to check with wherever he'll be running just to make sure. But instead of claiming him -- have you just asked the trainer if you could purchase him?...how much was he asking for him for a hunter?

...last question from you -- I've never seen a track check 'fitness' for a horse.... on this particular horse they'll just require 1 published workout for him to be entered.

......another note that stranger things have happened with 'older' horses: A good friend of mine that had never owned or been around racehorses before was at an auction one day. Thought this one tb (with papers) was cute & bought him for $250. Sent him to a trainer at the track & tried to bring him back. He was 9 years old & hadn't raced since he was 5 (reason I told her I was "full" & wouldn't take him ;)). Horse "trained" decent enough & breezed bullets in the morning -- but never went back to his form from before & ran 4 times before being retired again.

[FalseImpression]

of what happened to our trainer a few years ago. A beautiful black TB was sent to her to learn some manners before he was sent to the track. He was a love and she managed to convince the owners that he was really too young to go to the track. She kept pointing at his knees, at this and at that... whatever would buy time (the owners really had no clue as to what makes a race horse or a horse for that matter... ) and she delayed his real training for a while. She kept offering to train him as a hunter/to show him and they would be able to sell him for a good price... but all they could see/think was that they had a "winner". He broke down during his second race...

She managed to get him back (he leaped on her trailer when she went to get him!), did all the diagnostics and care she could and turned him out. She even told the owners that the farm owner was willing to take him off their payroll. They sold him for peanuts and she bought him right back. She took care of him, but he was showing no improvement and she had to put him down.

She swore she would never take another horse like that... it was too hard for her to send him to the track when she knew he was not meant to be.

So good luck to you and this horse. Maybe the trainer will realize he can't run him and will sell him to you (make sure he knows you are willing to take him...)

[lovemyhusband]

Not sure what track the horse will be racing at,but not sure of any that write races for maidens over the age of 5.

[eventchic33]

I believe Mountaineer(sp?) does. I know a trainer who sent a 6 yo maiden up there to run.

[Calamber]

There are quite a few that run races for 5 year old maidens, all they have to do at most is break from the gate properly and get their gatecard. No one checks for condition soundness, but, there is, of course, a published work that is supposed to at least prove the horse can work at race speed and not suffer a breakdown.

Find a trainer and claim the horse if you can. This person sounds like one of those delusional folks who think that a horse is a machine. Even machines won't do what you want just becuz you want. This is the only way to prevent them from breaking this horse down or making it totally unuseable or salvageable. Does not sound like it is worth the time to reason with this person as it does sound as though they think the horse is worth $15,000, likely that is what he has invested in the horse and does not want to give up.

Perhaps the best that can be hoped is that the horse is not competitive enough to hurt itself or the horse gods will protect him and you can snag him first time out.

[Laurierace]

My guess is the horse will let him know if he is up to the task or not by either performing or not performing. Hopefully if he is stinking up the track in the morning the trainer will be smart enough to put an end to the experiment. Or he may show a renewed zest for the sport and do ok, who knows?

[Thomas_1]

My question is: is there anything I can do to stop this? Use influence and persuasion to get the message home that he's totally and utterly wasting his time money and effort ...... or.....

Make him an offer for the horse and save him the time trouble and effort.

If he races him for a price, can I claim him or do I need a trainer to do that? If it's a claiming race he'll not be winning from what you've described so he'll not be claimed! If you've under stated or under estimated his condition and he wins then to be honest I'm not sure precisely how it works over there, but most likely you'll need a trainer to help you fight off the competition for this talented horse.

Does he have to show a certain level of fitness to run or will the track allow him to run if he is not conditioned properly. Again not too sure how it happens there but there is a degree of welfare that happens. Here there's veterinary inspection and a horse can be pulled. There it's going to be pretty obvious if the horse comes out looking like a fat retired lame horse. It will be the one at the back! That will be just before it's pulled up.

I really appreciate any help or advice you could give me; this horse is one of the kindest animals I've ever been around and he doesn't deserve to be used up like this. It happens sadly with all too many owners who haven't got a clue. You don't have to have a race horse to be an idiot.

Look at all the postings often seen here about folks wanting to trail ride or exercise their lame horse before it's ready and recouperated. Heck they even bute them to ride them!!!

[caryledee]

Thanks for all your help so far!! A little more information: from what this guy tells me, the horse DID show promise as a racehorse. When I asked him why he never won a race, he told me it was "bad luck." One of the reasons I am concerned is because this man has several of his retired mares at the farm. All of them have pretty serious injuries (big knees, severe bows, etc.); the last time he ran a horse, it broke a hind leg. The trainer always has someone else to blame...the track, the rider, etc. He can't see the big picture. I believe his conditioning program to bring this horse back would mostly be lunging the horse at the farm. The guy is too cheap to go out and hire a rider and condition him properly for 30 days.

The horse is the type that will try his heart out. He is not the type who will stay at the back of the pack and follow the others home. If he gets out there and his adrenaline kicks in, I just don't think the outcome will be good.

I have talked to the trainer about buying the horse from him; the trainer wants $15,000 which is more than he is worth (and way more than I have) at this point. This horse could be an A show hunter with more training, but the guy doesn't want to put any money into him; he just wants the $15k now. I have had more conversations than I can count about getting this horse, but the guy is just so stubborn and won't listen. This horse is about the fanciest I have ever ridden; he is 17.2, bright chestnut with tons of chrome. He has the attitude and movement to be a great amateur or junior hunter but I simply don't have that kind of money. I have told him point blank that he is going to break the horse down, but he doesn't believe me.

I believe he plans to run the horse in Indiana or at Mountaineer...I think he can run a 7 year old maiden there.

The trainer has never given me the whole story on the knee injury; it was more than a chip, I believe he fractured something. He has a significant bump on it, but he appears sound and appears to have full flexibility.

How would I go about finding a trainer to help me claim him if it comes to that?

[summerly]

Is he the owner also? Or just the trainer? Otherwise maybe you could try speaking to the owner route? Where is the horse located? All tracks have a vet inspection the morning of the race for soundness. They also need to show recorded timed workouts of a certain distance and time at a track or training facility previous to the race in order to race. If the horse can do this and pass the vets then he can run. You normally have to be eligible to claim a horse as an owner, you need to check the rules of the track he will be entered at. Only licensed owners and trainers can claim horses, so if your serious you need to look into that, or have somebody claim them in their name, which could be a risk too. Getting licensed usually means contacting the office filling out a aplication, paying for a fee for the license and fingerprinting normally. There is a lot of leg work.

[DickHertz]

If the knee issue is significant, he'll never get the horse ready in 60 days.

[jengersnap]

Not sure what track the horse will be racing at,but not sure of any that write races for maidens over the age of 5.

Ours does. I'm stabled in a barn with a guy (won't even call him a trainer) with two 6 year old maidens, one with 55 starts under her belt :sigh:

Maybe the horse had a slab fracture? We have a 9 yr old who was on stall rest for two years, he just won two starts out and ran very well in a move up after that. We also have an 8 yr old run 2nd two starts ago after two years off. But these are exceptions to the norm, and both these horses have had multiple wins and are out of conditions. One is a major stakes winner. Taking a 7 year old whose only excuse given was "bad luck" yet comes from a barn of broken bodies and tossing him back into racing for one more shot turns my stomach. But the $15,000 price tag on a maiden 7 yr old already tells me the guy isn't playing with a full deck :rolleyes:

I think Mountaineer's bottoms is $4,000, right? Scrape up coins if you really want him, he'll probably be at that level soon.

[caryledee]

The horse is boarded at a self care general boarding facility here in Lexington; the guy has stalls at the training center that he can use for his workouts though.

I do plan to claim him if he runs for $5k or less; that's all I can afford. I am worried that he will get hurt before I can get him. The guy who trains him owns him as well, so I have no one else to go to but him.

If I get an owners or trainers license in Kentucky, can I claim him at Mountaineer or Indiana? Is there a way to find out what race he is entered in before the day of the race so I can get everything together?
Thanks again!

[jengersnap]

Really not snarking here, but if you have to ask the question, I'm pretty sure you're not going to get a trainer's license anywhere anytime soon ;) You have to pass tests and generally move up the chain of competancy in the racing world, though I do personally think some trainers found their licenses in the proverbial crackerjack box. Best bet would be to network to someone at Mountainer, owner or trainer, who can drop the claim for you and then will transfer the horse over immediately. That does take some level of trust, but you've got at least 2 months to find a trustworthy friend of a friend. I know someone who is/was training at Mountaineer but I'm not sure she'd want to get involved and she's pretty busy between two tracks so it would be a huge favor to ask. I'm hoping someone else here is already at that track and can steer you better. Have shipping ready to go.

As for keeping tabs on the horse, open a free Virtual Stable account and put the horse in your stable so you get email when he works and when he's entered to run.

http://www.equibase.com/virtualntra-nostable.html

[tbracer65]

The horse is boarded at a self care general boarding facility here in Lexington; the guy has stalls at the training center that he can use for his workouts though.

I do plan to claim him if he runs for $5k or less; that's all I can afford. I am worried that he will get hurt before I can get him. The guy who trains him owns him as well, so I have no one else to go to but him.

If I get an owners or trainers license in Kentucky, can I claim him at Mountaineer or Indiana? Is there a way to find out what race he is entered in before the day of the race so I can get everything together?
Thanks again!

Every state is an individual when it comes to racing so you'll have to get a West Virginia license for Mountaineer & an Indiana license for there. Plus don't forget you need a trainer, too. You can add the horse in your stable on equibase & that'll alert you that the horse is entered (they usually give at least 3 days notice....every track is different on entries). + don't forget if you claim the horse for $5,000 you have to pay taxes (for that state), too, so you'll have to put ALL the money in the account....not just the claim. I know you're in a hurry to get the horse & his risk of re-injury might be high...but racehorses change value so much that he can be $15,000 now, but $500 & at the kill pen tomorrow..... I tend to lean on Dicks side on this one as you don't want to 'rush' a horse back to the races coming off a bad injury.....

[caryledee]

Jengersnap--I have been told all you need to do in Kentucky is take a test and the test is very simple. There are 4 "trainers" at my farm and none of them are what I would call good horsemen...it's pretty sad. I am not interested in actually becoming a trainer; if I just have the piece of paper in my hand could I claim the horse?

The equibase site is great, but the horses I have in my virtual stable race in Illinois and I only get notified the day of the race. Could someone send me the name of a horse running at Mountaineer or Hoosier so I can test the site? Thanks!

[rcloisonne]

The virtual stable sends you a notification when and where the horse will run. Doesn't matter what track or which state. I have only one little mare in my "stable" and have been following her for almost two years. From Suffolk Downs, to Tampa Bay, back to Suffolk, to Laurel Park and back to Suffolk again - where she is now. I try to get up to Boston to see her run when I can.

I, too, thought of getting an owner's licence and hiring a trainer to claim her for me but the whole deal just seems too absurd. I keep hoping the owners will give up before she's too used up or breaksdown. She's had a number of long "lay ups" over the years and hasn't done much recently. :no:

Good luck to you and I hope you get "your" boy.

[Laurierace]

I understand its hard to put a price on love but it is financially silly to claim this horse. I think you just need to have faith that if its meant to be, it will be. I am betting you get him for nothing by the end of the summer.

[Laurierace]

Make sure he knows that you are interested in the horse no matter what condition. Remind him of that often.

[caryledee]

Thanks Laurie! In my head, I know you are right; I need to step back from this. I just haven't been able to do that. I am just afraid this guy's ego is going to get in the way. If the horse fails at the track, I really think he would give him to someone else first just to avoid admitting to me he was wrong. I've told him time and again this horse is my dream horse and I would do anything to own him. I may be crazy to try to claim him, but I just have a nagging feeling something is going to go very wrong if he runs.

[nightsong]

If the horse fails at the track, I really think he would give him to someone else first just to avoid admitting to me he was wrong.

You'll have to talk to this guy in another way, then. Or find someone ELSE who can say they'll take the horse in any condition who HASN'T been criticizing the owner. Let them say it reminds them of an old favirite or other sentimental "reason." I think #2 is your only bet...

[summerly]

I KNOW the trainer's test is not easy in ANY state. Maybe a little more easier for somebody that actually works on the track or is in the least bit familiar with the industry! It usually involves three different tests, one is a barn test identifying racetrack equipment on a racehorse, what's the purpose and use of each and how you correctly put it on the horse, including bandages IE< standing, polos, vetrap for racing. Another test is on the rulebook, which includes medicine withdrawl times, eligibility rules and conditions and weight allowances for different ages and sexes of racehorses. Workmen's comp and trainer accountabity for employess, general health and feed and conditioning etc etc etc. THen there can also be an oral exam held by the stewards(the law in racing) on any and everything. So it's not just a matter of "I want to take the test" Most racetracks usually require an individual to have X amount of years of background of the track or involved in racing before you are even allowed to sit the test. Also a referal from several trainers on the track to back up your competency! I would highly doubt you would pass not being involved in the industry whatsoever! Sorry

[TBCollector]

I KNOW the trainer's test is not easy in ANY state. Maybe a little more easier for somebody that actually works on the track or is in the least bit familiar with the industry! It usually involves three different tests, one is a barn test identifying racetrack equipment on a racehorse, what's the purpose and use of each and how you correctly put it on the horse, including bandages IE< standing, polos, vetrap for racing. Another test is on the rulebook, which includes medicine withdrawl times, eligibility rules and conditions and weight allowances for different ages and sexes of racehorses. Workmen's comp and trainer accountabity for employess, general health and feed and conditioning etc etc etc. THen there can also be an oral exam held by the stewards(the law in racing) on any and everything. So it's not just a matter of "I want to take the test" Most racetracks usually require an individual to have X amount of years of background of the track or involved in racing before you are even allowed to sit the test. Also a referal from several trainers on the track to back up your competency! I would highly doubt you would pass not being involved in the industry whatsoever! Sorry


Seeing all the criteria laid out there in black and white makes me wonder how a few of them did pass.

[SleepyFox]

He sounds like a lovely horse, but I'm confused. What happened in the year between you training him as a hunter and now? How did he go from suitable to jump to not suitable to race?

His owner's plan to bring him back sounds optimistic, but not out of line. How do you know he won't give him more time if the horse needs it? I mean, he has given him a lot of time off as it is (exactly what people on this BB are always complaining that racehorse people never do) - why would he shortchange him at this point? The only thing that sounds completely insane in his plan to make $15k in 3 races.

The horse will have to have a published work at a half mile before he can start. Set your Virtual Stable up to send Workout Notifications and you'll see when he works. When you see a work at a half, you'll know he's looking for a race. You can also have VS send Early Entry Notifications which alert you at the time of entry.

I don't know about IN and WV, but in LA a horse that has been off for over 6 months must have a letter from a vet stating the horse is fit to race before he can be entered. If the horse pulled up sore in his last race, he may be on the Vet's List and then that half mile work would be in front of the state vets and they will do a soundness exam on him prior to allowing him to enter.

As far as getting your trainers license... the states I am familiar with require you to demonstrate that you have horses to train. I cannot see the stewards granting you a license for the sole purpose of rescuing a horse through the claim box.

You also cannot obtain an owner's license until you own a horse. In a case where you claim your first horse you would be issued a provisional license and then your owner's license after your claim. Or, you could simply hire a trainer to claim the horse in his/her name with your money. There is some work involved in claiming a horse, so no matter what method you use, don't expect someone to do it for free.

Hope things work out the way you want.

[caryledee]

Thank you for the information on the licensing tests; the way it was explained to me, it made it sound a lot simpler. I guess I'll have to go the route of finding a trainer to help me out.

SleepyFox--Thank you for the information. I will admit, I know very little about conditioning a race horse. But I do know about conditioning a horse for eventing and the hunter jumper world and I certainly don't think I could get this horse to a show in 2 months...not because of soundness issues, but his overall fitness just isn't there yet for any type of serious work. And I think a horse can easily be sound enough for a show hunter, but not sound enough to still be a racehorse. Is it really standard procedure to take a horse that hasn't been sat on in over a year and hasn't been raced in over two years and lunge him for a couple of months before getting a workout or two in and shipping him off to the races? That is what this guy has told me his plan is. Maybe I am overestimating what it takes to get an older horse safely back to the track; I just know when he tried a similar plan on another gelding he had a couple of years ago, that gelding ended up fracturing a leg. I just don't want this guy to meet the same fate.

[SleepyFox]

Is it really standard procedure to take a horse that hasn't been sat on in over a year and hasn't been raced in over two years and lunge him for a couple of months before getting a workout or two in and shipping him off to the races?

No, it's not standard procedure to train off the lunge line, but people do it and win races. And, tight circles is something I'd avoid on a horse with a knee, but each to his own. It is easier to get an older, experienced horse back in condition than it is to get a baby going - just because the know what they are doing. Also with an experienced horse, you can race them into fitness (ie. start the horse running at a half or 5/8ths while you get him into shape). Again, his plan sounds optimistic and probably is not the best method, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility. ;)

Oh - forgot to mention, even if you get your trainer's license, you must also obtain an owner's license to claim one in your own name.

[lolalola]

If you can afford to pay $5000 for this horse, offer to write him a check right now. The worst that can happen is he will say no. $5000 in hand is better than $15000 in a pipe dream.

[caryledee]

If you can afford to pay $5000 for this horse, offer to write him a check right now. The worst that can happen is he will say no. $5000 in hand is better than $15000 in a pipe dream.

Believe me, I have. I also know a h/j trainer willing to spend $7500 on him (the horse is that nice) but he won't sell him. He would rather run him; he is so sure about getting his $15,000 that way. It is frustrating!