Dr. Deb Bennet's article : True Collection

[AZ Native]

I'm sure many of you have seen this. I had not and found it very interesting and thought provoking. I thought maybe those of you that had not seen it might enjoy reading it. Dr. Bennet discusses the biomecahanics of collection and touches on contact, and jaw relaxation as well .

http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

[mickeydoodle]

Unfortunately, the pictures of her "in collection" are not collection. There is no recycling of the engergy, just a slowing. I don't agree with her discussion nor methods.

[AZ Native]

Mickey, could you be more specific regarding her '' methods and discussion '', please ? I've been in the process of trying to learn more about collection , contact and how they relate to one another. Since she is an expert on biomechanics, I thought the things she wrote in the article made sense from that perspective.Thanks in advance !

[angel]

Which picture(s) shows her in collection? If you are speaking about the very first photo, I'd say that one is more like "bit acceptance," and it would be for what I look in a Training Level horse. You have the relaxation of the jaw needed from which to develop collection...but no collection yet there. If her position was where it should be, I think you would see the horse fall even more on the forehand. But, the words in the article are good. Perhaps, the problem is that many of us articulate better with words than we do with the saddle!:lol:

[medical mike]

but for those of you interested in science and what they say about contact forces and their effect on the horse, get to a library with full access to pubmed and read:
Kinetics and kinematics of the horse comparing left and right rising trot.
Roepstorff L, Egenvall A, Rhodin M, Byström A, Johnston C, van Weeren PR, Weishaupt M.
Equine Vet J. 2009 Mar;41(3):292-6.

Equine Vet J. 2009 Mar;41(3):280-4.Links
Basic kinematics of the saddle and rider in high-level dressage horses trotting on a treadmill.
Byström A, Rhodin M, von Peinen K, Weishaupt MA, Roepstorff L.

The effect of different head and neck positions on the caudal back and hindlimb kinematics in the elite dressage horse at trot.
Rhodin M, Gómez Alvarez CB, Byström A, Johnston C, van Weeren PR, Roepstorff L, Weishaupt MA.
Equine Vet J. 2009 Mar;41(3):274-9

Makes one think about the "why"...........

REgards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.fitfocusedforward.us

[nhwr]

To twirl the head is to cause the skull to swivel as illustrated around an imaginary longitudinal axis. Externally, this makes it appear that the horse’s inside jowl is tucking under its throat. Baucher, in the nineteenth century called this maneuver a ”jaw flexion”. But it is not itself a movement of the jaw, but of the skull at the joint that connect the skull to the neck. The purpose of twirling the head is NOT to show how far around your horse can swivel its head, and NOT to stretch the muscles in the neck. Rather, we twirl the head in order to provoke or obtain release – the turning “off” – of unnecessary contractions or bracing of the muscles of the neck. When the neck stops bracing, very often the muscles of adjoining body zones, such as the back and jaw, also “turn loose”. The horse must release the muscles all along the topline, from the jaw joints to the soles of the hind feet, before it will be easy for him to achieve or maintain collection.Sounds like Bennet has been schooling with Sjef.

[slc2]

Not even.

This is going to be a 'classic 100 mile slicky rant'.

'The horse has to release his muscles (from nose to toe)'

Just how this really happens is not discussed, LOL.

Which means, I write until the buzzer on my dryer buzzes.

This is similar to Bennett's approach to everything; obsessing on one tree (one concept, one detail) and missing the forest. As if I said, 'To get an advanced degree physics, you need to buy pants. Then just get a belt and you will have learned physics'.

Bennett completely misses the concept of collection; she invents her own version of dressage and of collection. She has no experience in it, and no training in it, and ulike most mortal human beings, has never accepted any instruction, feedback or criticism from anyone WITH experience or knowledge, so can't come up with anything related to actual collection.

She's another one of the 'Xenobunnies', I call them, and the sword they righteously bear is Mr. Xenophon's bookie wook.

Xenophonia - a neurosis characterized by the avoidance of dressage instruction.

Xenophon, conveniently dead, won't tell them when they're wrong, so is the ideal Guy To Quote. Additionally, quite a few question the ancientness of the Xenophon text; some accuse it of being a modern invention. Whether or not, it's quite doubtful that Xenophon really rode like Steinbrecht or any of the other great masters of the last 400 years that we are closer to. Dressage has gradually evolved, and the schooling of Xenophon's, as well as that of a few hundred years ago, as well as the riding, would probably have turned our stomachs.

Collection, however, isn't a complex concept and there is no need to beat one's chest about 'true collection' - it is not brain surgery and it is not a difficult thing to understand or to spot.

Bennett's website is fascinating for the degree to which she shuts down all dialogue except that which agrees with her.

And she needn't be on an Olympic team to figure this out, but fact is, she hasn't figured it out. And the criticism against her wasn't that not being on an Olympic team she had no right to know this,, the criticism in fact was that she didn't know it.

1. Levels are traps. You don't need levels.

Wrong.

1a. Except for some 'very broad guidelines' (which are never spelled out) there is no real order in which you have to train a horse.

Yes, and I have some ocean front property in Iowa to sell you, but so does Bennett.

2. You don't need a trainer.

Wrong. Whenever you don't want to know what you're doing wrong or want to feel you know it all (like Bennett), you don't need a trainer.

News: everyone has problems learning and improving in dressage, and the more they work alone (or 'with their girlfriends who love them' and ALSO have no training, no experience and no knowledge) the more entrenched those problems get. The creepiest thing about dressage (and especially about say, straightening your horse...ahem....) is that what feels comfortable and right is - it's wrong. It's familiar, but it's wrong.

Our bodies, just like our horse's bodies, love what is familiar and comfortable. We who work without trainers want to delude ourselves into thinking that's what's right....it isn't.

3. "My horse is collected"

Nope. Once again, the Legendary Painty, the Horse that is not only used to model perfect conformation, but also perfect dressage. Her 'slow relaxed canter' is what's called 'patting the ground on the forehand' and is not collection. There are certain prerequisites to collection - contact, straightness, etc.

4. Collection is the arched neck, shortening of the body

Collection is first and foremost about a change in the shape of the stride, at the very lowest levels, (which it is my guess what she is trying to achieve) before any change in the body or neck is shown. Going for the change in the body and neck first is what causes the false collection. Going for the 'slow' gait is what leads to contraction of the body, rather than the athleticism and full range of motion of the hip, shoulder, back.

Collection is a holistic activity in which all parts of the horse and rider contribute, and its foundation is the thrusting power developed in the earliest levels. THe horse, in a round, active posture, goes freely forward, learning the basics of rudimentary half halts and having a supple, active, strong body. The back rounds not because the head is turned from side to side, but because of dozens of things the rider does in concert, which have a cummulative effect. The horse's topline muscles develop strength, and his hind legs can thrust equally because he is straightened, otherwise the energy does not meet the bit evenly, and no 'circle of the aids' is possible.

As the half halts are developed over time, along with the suppleness and activity, the horse gradually learns to translate that 'thrusting power' into carrying power. His back and hind quarters, the largest, strongest muscles in his body, gradually are increasingly strengthened and suppled, so that the circle of the aids meets no resistance, and flows forward to the bit, and is recycled by half halts, back to the hind quarters, causing the hind quarters to 'engage' and 'carry'.

It is this gradual strengtheing of the hind quarters and back via the circle of the aids that both balances and straightens the horse, that free up the base of the neck to rise between the shoulder blades, because the forehand is unburdened...and it is something that can both be felt and seen.

At first, there is no shortening of the spine, tucking of the haunches, or lifting of the neck. The first collection is a result of the very slight change in the balance of the horse, which is virtually invisible, and produces a change in the shape of the stride - the knees and hocks are the most obvious markers to look for. They will bend and lift slightly more. It is only far further down the road, when the outline of the horse seems different, at the top levels, and even there, it is only the slightest raising of the neck beyond the 'natural comfortable' position of the horse, so the nose is level with the hips or there abouts.

And the top levels will be achieved, NOT by tricks and standing on drums or by twising the horse's head or raising the hands of the rider at all, but by a gradual improvement of the simplest basics that are the true basis of collection - straightness, throughness, suppleness, acceptance of the bit.

5. Collection equals moving fluidly while carrying weight on his back.

Collection is first and foremost about a change in the shape of the stride from the working gaits. It starts with infinitesimal deviations from the working gaits. To create it, one needs to first have some sort of working gait.

Collection is not 'moving fluidly while carrying weight on his back' - that is not even a working gait, but it sure is not a collected gait. To be a working gait, contact and activity is needed - that's not shown.

A horse cannot be collected until it is ridden straight, forward. The degree to which it needs to be straight, the degree to which it needs to be forward, is what most people miss - I'm not at all sure why she has always evinced such a determined blindness, with all the knowledge of centuries of horsemen like Steinbrecht, and all the effort of great skilled trainers like Podhajsky at the Spanish Riding School, chucked out - you don't need to be straight. You don't need to sit well, you don't need to train your horse up through the levels, you don't even need to establish the basics of the training scale, and you SURE don't need anyone telling you that you're not straight or not sitting in the middle of the saddle, just shuffle along, bend that horse's neck this way and that - voila. Collection. TRUE collection.[/I]

Without actually, straightening the horse, so his hind legs are capable of carrying or even first, thrusting forward.

Balderdash. Dr. Bennett has always had an incredible blind spot where dressage is concerned. It's a blind spot many people have, and it comes from not getting instruction, not having an open mind, and not getting out there in the world and getting an understanding of it.

6. Relaxation of the topline allows collection.

Many horses have a great deal of 'relaxation of the topline' without ever afterwards, developing any collection. There are many other prerequisites, relaxation of the topline', well not really the kind of relaxation she's talking about, but a very active relaxation that goes along with a great deal of suppleness and strength and activity - the slack shuffling she declares is relaxation isn't the relaxation the great masters intended.

But that's all you need! Because Bennett believes you don't need any trainer Except of course, her, and your 'girlfriends who love you' (what's that island off the coast of Greece?)

7. Collection is complete when the horse raises the base of his neck

Yeah, but what is happening, is that people are trying to lift the head, or praising the Lord when the horse happens to chuck it up in the air, out of annoyance over this training method, or due to a fly on his ear, LOL.

8. (Baucher jaw flexion) 'I prefer the term 'head twirling'

So do I! It sounds so - 'twirly'!

This method is certainly likely to get the head of any experienced dressage trainer 'twirling'! LOL!

9. Diagrams of muscles.

Beware, my dears, any time someone tells you that relaxing the back automatically raises the base of the neck, without anything else happening. My horse's back is relaxed when he's eating grass in the field, and he ain't raising the base of his neck.

If it were this easy, everyone would be doin' it, and they ain't.

10. Muscles in the neck raise the base of the neck.

In fact, their role is miniscule. It is the even action of both hind legs and the circle of the aids that raises the base of the neck.

It is as if she were saying, 'to do ballet, get a tutu'.

She is talking about doing only ONE of the 10 things that is part of the most very basic dressage at intro and training level, and saying, 'then just twirl that head, and voila, collection'.

Bullhocky.

There is a wee bit more to it.

As Atticus Finch said, 'It is a lie'.

Collection is NOT 'complete' when a horse with a relaxed topline raises 'the base of his neck' (note that telling the difference between 'raising the head' and 'rasing the base of the neck' is conveniently eleded).

I like the part where she excoriates the dressage rider for having 'grotesque muscles on the horse's neck' and then carefully outlines the 'muscle' which is actually a pad of fat on a mature horse.

I also wonder if the riders she singled out for damning realize they're being accused of destroying their horses with draw reins, or if they actually used draw reins - ever.

Of course the overflexed pony in the side reins (at first I thought it was 'Power and Paint' from those legendary 'warmup' pictures, the side reins were so short) is doing something VALUABLE because he's overflexed behind the vertical with a borken neck on short side reins while he's standing on a drum, hallelujia. So THAT'S valuable shortening and cramping of the neck, but the dressage riders and cowboys, whose horse's necks are far LESS shortened, are getting trashed.

And of COURSE...standing on that drum raises the base of the neck!

Only in relation to the hind legs, which are not standing on the drum, and only because the base of the neck is attached to the shoulders. In fact, no actual raising of the base of the neck is shown at all on the horses standing on a drum, I don't think Bennett understands the concept of raising the base of the neck at all.

11. 'Lightness is the decontracting of the vertebral column and topline'.

Ok....it's starting to get funny....I think the idea is to just keep repeating over and over til it is believed.

12. The photo of the cobby horse shows raising of the base fo the neck.

Nope.

13. The base of the neck is raised by raising your hands and pushing the reins toward the horse.

Nope.

14. Use the inside rein to turn in a circle.

Nope. Not by itself, not after the 3rd week the horse is under saddle.

15.

'I am riding Painty in 'relaxed collection''

Doesn't look like collection.

16. Next photo. Collected trot.

Without the hind end of the horse, yeah.

17. The saddleseat horse with its neck crammed into its chest and its hind legs trailing back a mile, is going better than the little app doing a working trot.

Actually the little appy has far, far more correct stuff going on than the saddleseat horse. He's moving into the bit and his rider looks like she's sitting securely and in the middle of the horse. He's much more in balance than the black horse, and much more correct. Perfect? Nope. But I'd bet he and his little rider are just about where they're supposed to be based on their level and experience, and are about 200 times better than the other one.

18. 'One could hardly be any rounder'

In fact no roundness is shown, but the head is down, by George.

I respond at length because of concern that this article will mislead aspiring dressage riders, and take them down an incorrect path.

The training scale despite how it is so often misinterpreted IS necessary, and unless one is not a normal mortal human being, so are some riding lessons, at least from time to time, and so are levels. The worst mistake is to work in isolation, and try to avoid the work on one's position, straightness and forwardness of the horse before working on collection.

First develops thrusting power, then carrying power.

Collection is not a mysterious circus trick developed by having a horse stand on a drum, pulling its neck from side to side, or skipping basics

So get out there, 'Girl friends who love you', and start twirling that horse's head, and you'll have 'true collection'!

Barf bags at the ready.....Go!

[mandalea]

O, just my 2c.

I only briefly looked at photos A,B,C & D, and the text to go with it.

Photo A & B: That 'false crest' could EASILY be a build up of fat, since the horse looks quite small and chunky. My sister horse has NO collection, what so ever, and she has the same thing. It's from glucose. She cant process it properly, and stores it around her body. It's also know as insulin resistance, which leads to founder.

Photo C: She is full of crap. She has obviously never watched an REAL roping, or done roping, because she would know it is quite hard to pull up a horse going flat out so it doesn't squish you steer, and so you can land on it easier.

Photo D: Horses do naturally have short necks. Gees :rolleyes:

The white horse further down, hasn't been worked to get into a frame, and the shire, well, I think his neck is just to fat. I've seen beautiful Clydesdales, with a beautiful frame, except the neck,because it is just to hard for them to bend it like that.

I agree that in HER pictures, that none of her horses are truly collected - they really only have their head down, and their necks are long.

And what's with the picking on reiners? We're supposed to have our horses somewhat 'strung out' - that's how cow horses are ridden. All western disciplines are based on ranch work, where the horse was really only ridden at a plod, walking behind cattle, with the occasional lope or canter to catch a herd of unruly cattle.

I can tell you know, if I know this stuff, than anybody should, because I am not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

ETA: I just remembered, what was that with having RACEHORSES collected? Yeah, lets see how fast we can get out TBs to run around the track with a nice short stride. Seriously ! :rolleyes:

[Foxhound]

Mandalea-
I thought the same thing about the pictures of the cresty-necked horse. I have seen plenty of horses who have never worn draw reins in their lives who have necks like that. It's more a sign of impending founder than it is of gaget use.

Overall, I thought the article had little factual basis, and her thoughts on "twirling" the head could lead people who don't know any better to seriously confuse their horses.

I'll stick with Dr. Hillary Clayton if I want to read about biomechanics.

[Hazelnut]

Mandalea-

I'll stick with Dr. Hillary Clayton if I want to read about biomechanics.

Amen

[merrygoround]

While I don't agree with all her premises, or her interpretations of her photos, I do have to laugh at her introduction. And I will say she has some points.

"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".

[Waterwitch]

I'll stick with Dr. Hillary Clayton if I want to read about biomechanics.

Thank you.

[AZ Native]

I really appreciate ALL of your input, especially SLC's specifics. I've been on the right path so far and will continue with it.
I had some questions in my mind too regarding the pictures she was using. In one photo the hands of the rider look way too high and she does not address that, for just one example .
Great discussion, thanks again !

[ToN Farm]

I think Collection to her equals Balance. I think she does understand that Collection involves a lowering of the haunches and a lifting of the back via the belly muscles. But it ends there, for her. What she doesn't buy into is the 'connection' that is required that ultimately produces the cadence, power, and throughness needed for top dressage. Could she extended Painty's canter and transition it back again? I dunno, but I doubt it.

[Tucked_Away]

What on earth is going on in the picture with the Fresian?

[Foxhound]

It looks like it's being ridden as a saddle seat horse. I think the Friesian breed shows feature saddle seat classes.

[Tucked_Away]

It looks like it's being ridden as a saddle seat horse. I think the Friesian breed shows feature saddle seat classes.

I meant on a more basic level...I can't even tell what gait that's supposed to be?

[mbm]

i agree w/ToN - i think she is talking about the basic concept of the horse lifting its withers and "coiling" its loins... not "collection" in the dressage sense.

so using her definition all horses should be able to "collect" even Western horses as it is just the basic concept of the horse using its properly to be able to carry a rider.

hopefully Karoline will chime in as she has studied with Dr. Bennet I believe and may have some insight.

[Coppers mom]

I think I get what she's trying to say in the first few pages. That's about it though, when she started babbling on about cresty necks coming from side reins, and necks being made physically shorter, I just had to stop.

[nhwr]

If you have ever had the chance to work with someone who really understands the "Sjef method", you will find that that the Bennet quote I referenced is a decent, though quite cursory, outline of what this method is and it works in the right hands. I think Bennet is woefully short on actual practical knowledge about to actually achieve the release and seems to totally skip the element of engagement, though.

My point is;
classical training is in the eye of the beholder - it is not so much about what is done but rather who is doing it that defines whether it is classical or not :eek:

[mbm]

If you have ever had the chance to work with someone who really understands the "Sjef method", you will find that that the Bennet quote I referenced is a decent, though quite cursory, outline of what this method is and it works in the right hands. I think Bennet is woefully short on actual practical knowledge about to actually achieve the release and seems to totally skip the element of engagement, though.

My point is;
classical training is in the eye of the beholder - it is not so much about what is done but rather who is doing it that defines whether it is classical or not :eek:

i dont think you can compare what Dr. Bennett is talking about with what SJ advocates?

in other words: standing flexions are completely different than rollkur. and, as we all know there are many different schools of "classical" dressage . i don't think even SJ would say he is "classical" in fact he says that classical doesn't work.

[twofatponies]

Not even.

This is going to be a 'classic 100 mile slicky rant'.
....!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

That was pretty funny. Now I'll go read the article. :D

[slc2]

"i can't even figure out what gait it is doing"

Once at a breed evaluation, a wild young mare came out and was leaping all over the place in a panic (or excitement, perhaps, at all the stallions around), and at one point the announcer decreed, rather generously, I believe, 'And that is the canter'.

So I shall say, 'And that is the trot'.

Basically you just pick a moment and say, 'that's it, that's a gait'. Actually I see tons of horses making fair immitations of that Friesian, though most of them are Friesians, LOL. It tends to be exactly the position a great many ads for stallions are in when advertising themselves. The only thing that really has happened, is that the Friesian gait has gotten exaggerated all out of compass - neck pulled in and hiked up, forelegs going like mad...'and the generals all trailing behind'.

'it's basically Sjef's method'.

I don't agree with that. Sjef understands dressage and has competed and placed well, and gotten instruction from excellent classical, traditional trainers, he's just adopted some extreme methods and has a different emphasis. He understands the theory and can ride well, but chooses to emphasize specific things to the exclusion of others, something I don't care for, but I do recognize that he, rather than not knowing something, learned it, and then started putting his own spin on it. I can't say that about the other person.

[slc2]

"the hands of the rider are way too high"

In fact, not only does she not criticize that, she says that you need to do that! Get those hands up and in your stomach, people, except when you're lifting your hands and pushing them toward the horse's head, to 'raise the base of the neck'.

While the rest of us fools spend the next 20 years trying to figure out how to straighten our horses, go forward, maintain a trusted, steady connection with our horses, a supple, soft seat and a soft, loose, encouraging leg. It is the activity of the hind quarters, correct half halts, and the basic correctness of the horse and rider that produce collection, raising of the base of the neck...and lightness. The horse's hind legs do not hold him up because you bend the horse's neck from left to right. If it was that easy, there'd be a much longer line at the Olympic trials, LOL.

LOL.

[D_BaldStockings]

slc2,
Thank you for taking the time to succinctly go through and expose the massive errors promulgated in this article. I attempted it once and just gave up after the second page as, well, it just isn't dressage.

Deb Bennett's PhD. is in Vertebrate Paleontology per her bio here.
http://www.equinology.com/info/instructor.asp?insid=13

The rest?

Anyhow, I just came on to give my opinion that the Friesian's rider is attempting a canter depart from the position of her hands and the horse's leg, body and head-neck position....
Appears to be 'running into it' via a trot, so no comment on any dressage aspect there.

[slc2]

The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a 'new message' and a 'new dressage' that you don't need an instructor for. Teach the horse to 'move away from pressure', drop the contact when the horse 'gives', get the horse to put its head down and go slow, voila.

[D_BaldStockings]

The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a 'new message' and a 'new dressage' that you don't need an instructor for...

'common' has never been a scientific basis for correct. The number and fanaticism level of followers may be a gauge of a person's charisma, but not necessarily the soundness of their paradigm.

No instructor? While there is certainly a shortage of good ones, it is almost impossible to progress without outside help. Where would the world be without potty training!

[twofatponies]

The concepts she puts forward are common to many who say they have a 'new message' and a 'new dressage' that you don't need an instructor for. Teach the horse to 'move away from pressure', drop the contact when the horse 'gives', get the horse to put its head down and go slow, voila.

Is she coming at this from a western perspective? My impression (non-scientific!) is that what a western rider means by "collection" is not the same as what a dressage rider means, but western-trained trainers don't always completely get that, when they try to teach across disciplines.

[nhwr]

If you read her article, twofatponies, you will see it is pretty clear she isn't discussing standing flexions. Bennet discusses this release concept with a mounted rider and uses terms like on the bit, energy transference/recycling. She talks about twirling in the riding light and straight portion of the article.

The comparison is absolutely on point :yes:

Oh the horror, the horror ....

[LMH]

slc I would like to tip my hat to you on your laundry post.

That is one the most enjoyable posts I have ever read by you-you were on a ROLL!

[slc2]

"standing flexions totally different from rollkur"

not really.

I think standing flexions are as much a problem as rollkur, actually.

[slc2]

I kept saying to myself, 'I'll quit when the dryer buzzer buzzes'.

Turns out the dryer buzzer is not working...

Beware the premise! Beware the premise!

[Nawda Ponygirl]

I've run across several ladies who follow Deb Bennett religiously. Go to clinics to ride and dissect horses. Love the idea that they are learning something 'more classic than competitive dressage'. Read a lot. Talk about it a lot. But the one thing that seemed strange to me..... they don't ride their horses on any kind of regular basis. They are clinic junkies that follow a whole bunch of strange 'revolutionary' gurus. They are so busy learning stuff they have a good excuse not to ride, and when they do, they won't go out of the arena and are afraid to canter. Deb is a wonderful enabler for this type of rider, because she claims you should do a lot of work at walk to learn dressage.

[slc2]

Popcorn? Wine cooler?

[Tamara in TN]

Wine cooler?


do they make Bartles and James wildberry anymore?? good stuff that....


best

[ToN Farm]

I just read the article this thread is about. I was thinking it was an older article that is on her website. She has others on this same topic.

While I agree with most of the faults you all find with what she wrote and teaches, I still think there is some good in that article; enough that I am going to print it out and study it a bit.

I DO think that the term 'Collection' means something different to the Western folk. Even in my old hunter days, that term was used to mean (get your horse together).

Regarding hands, Dr. Deb recommends they be at the level of the navel. What's wrong with that?

Whether her horse is collected or not, it looks pleasant to ride.

[angel]

The picture of her on her paint showed her hands much higher than her navel!:winkgrin: Either than, or she has an an interesting anatomy!

[ToN Farm]

Angel, the photo on page 12, they are not high. On the earlier photo they are, but they are also incredibly long and loose. Although she is riding English, that is a Western style of rein holding. Whether they are high or low, the fact that there is no contact makes it insignificant, right?

Hey...I don't ride like she does, but all I'm saying is that I see some good in it. Her horse looks balanced and happy and so does she.

I just don't think Dr. Deb deserves to be put in the kookie alternative trainer category. She was taught by some of the top Western ODG's.

[Carol Ames]

:eek:I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol:

[Carol Ames]

While WE'RE AT IT; LET'S THROW DR. Judith SHOEMAKER, dR..Kent VASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; NOW THAT WOULD BE AN IMPLOSION ABOUT TO HAPPEN!:lol:



I wouldlove to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________

[Carol Ames]

While we're at it, let's throw DR.Judith SHOEMAKER, DR..Kent VASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; now that would be an implosion about to happen:winkgrin:



I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________

[Carol Ames]

ZwHILE WE'RE AT IT; LET'S THROW DR.Judith SHOEMAKER, DR..Kent vASKO, AND EMILY BROMILY INTO THE MIX; now that would be an implosion about to happen:winkgrin:



I would like to hear hear a conversation between her and Hilary Clayton! battle of the PHDS; does someone want to suggest this to USDF?:lol: ___________

[Carol Ames]

Does anyone else find this frightening?:eek:anatomy-based horsemanship clinics designed primarily for owners, trainers, therapists, and breeders. [/FONT]

[BaroquePony]

'head twirling'

Dressage meets the Exorcist :yes:

[slc2]

Crossley was a great one for explaining collection, but Niggli's book also has very good diagrams of what a collected stride is.

We have to remember that the most tantalizing, easy, do-it-yourself explanations for 'dressidge' ALWAYS have an emotional, visceral appeal, and always contain 'a granule of dressage'. What we have to be cognizant of is that one appealing element doesn't make it correct.

When someone tells you 'it's easy', 'you only have to do one simple thing', 'you don't need the training scale, or levels, or an instructor', and especially 'all you need is your girlfriends who love you', no matter WHAT, no matter what other tidbits you hear, you should be screaming and running in the opposite direction.

If you are served a soup that has 'just a couple' flies in it, you don't say, 'well, I can spoon around the flies, there ARE, after all, some nice vegetables next to the flies'. The flies being in the soup make a problem for the whole soup!

And flaws in the training affect the entire training. You guys have never been heard to say on this web site, 'Well, yeah, rollkur really is ugly, but the rest of the training is fine...'

It's the equestrian equivalent of the used car salesman's 'Trust Me'.

And TRUST ME, you will ALSO find, that this kind of declaration, always comes with what you find out later, it isn't that you don't need ANY instructor, but that you MUST have THIS instructor, this and only this one forever and ever, because he's the ONLY one that really has the true word, and all the rest of those guys are bupkiss! They are ALL misled, wrong, deluded, corrupt, blah blah blah! And that's the truth of that one. Not only this instructor, but these books, these dvd's and plenty of not-cheap clinic time.

In MOST kinds of riding, a collected gait is a slower gait with the head and neck raised more, without concern to the position of the back or hind legs, but also in most kinds of riding, it is not achieved in the same way as in dressage, and it doesn't produce the same sort of result. We desperately want to think all types of riding are exactly the same, but the fact is, they aren't.

In most kinds of riding, the horse is 'lifted' with the bit into a collected gait. It doesn't much matter if he's straight or if he's lifted his back. The weight is transferred to the hind quarter by lifting the neck with the reins - the horse learns a 'cue', a bump on the mouth off a loose rein, a tug at first one rein and then the other, and it needn't be rough or even obvious.

Not naming disciplines, but in a driving discipline, the way of getting a horse to take a 'fancy' stride with a lift to the knee and hock, was called 'hold 'em and hit 'em' - a tight short rein to lift the head and liberal use of the whip.

The horse would tension the muscles of the topline in response to the lifting of the bit and the constraint he was under. He becomes a sort of 'horse hanging off his back'(muscle tension), instead of a horse whose back is rounded by the hind quarters action, and lifted in front by it.

Do this sometime. Ride a 4th level test or a PSG test on a horse that is not collected enough, or is not straight. Compare how much sweat he has on him after that ride, and then ride him straight and collected enough. Note the difference - the less correct, the more effort the horse has to make (to a point, of course, because the work just is not a breeze, even if totally correct).

Note where the sweat is - on the neck and shoulders, and ask yourself what part of the horse has to make up for it when the horse is crooked or not collected enough - the front end winds up laboring - the shoulder and neck.

The reason we put the horse on the haunches is that his haunches, having huge muscles and huge levers, are far more capable of making that huge mechanical spring, than his front end is. He proves this to us by leveraging his hind quarters when he wants to display himself.

And his hooves and fetlocks don't hang down limp and relaxed when he's working on the forehand - only when he's carrying himself on his haunches, without tensioning the back muscles.

In dressage, we also indeed, create energy and then 'restrain' it, but the difference is that we don't actually lift the neck and head with the reins, we actually spend years creating a great deal of swing, thrusting power, and that it is a very difficult process to provide just barely enough contact and restraint to recycle the energy without inverting the topline. This is the 'circle of the aids', the 'balance of power', and it is a very delicate balancing act, literally, to 'coordinate seat, hand and leg' to the point where we can rather than lifting the head, sit there and watch it happen, without us doing much at all, to actually make it happen.

Instead of lifting the legs through the action of the muscles of neck and shoulder, the 'top muscles', the legs are bent and lifted because the hind quarters have taken over the work - and they can do that only when the animal is straight to an incredible degree, with his hind quarters placed exactly behind his shoulders at every moment - if the hind quarters deviate for only a second, the power is lost to one side, the balance is lost, and the animal must once again 'move by tension, not by power'.

Instead of lifting the head, what is done is to wind a spring of energy up, adn that spring is the gigantic muscles of the hind quarter and back.

In dressage, the horses learns that in response to a half halt, instead of being 'checked', instead of slowing down his stride, instead of lifting his neck and head 'above his back', he is to increase the bending of the joints of his hind legs. All we can do is remind the horse to put his head and neck where the current development of his back and hind quarters allows him to, which is a big judgement call, and another place where a knowledgeable expert comes in handy.

The half halt is the secret to everything in dressage. If the horse merely 'checks' (as a 'rein half halt' might do in other riding sports), if he slows down his hind leg, if he pauses his hind leg, the cycle of the aids is broken right there, and collection without tension becomes less possible, not more.

The fundamental difference in dressage is the half halt. The horse is taught by association to engage his hind leg. In the most rudimentary first schooling he MAY be slowing down, but not because that's the goal, and the key is that he sits on his hind leg, even if only a slight bit more, and he bends it, and is immediately sent forward. He learns to engage his hind leg in response to the half halt. Eventually he learns a half halt isn't about slowing down at all, but about sitting on his hind leg and winding that big spring of energy.

And you can see a half halt. It is not some mysterious, spiritual thing - you can see it, you can see EVERY half halt - that works, that is! If it works you can see it. The hind leg bends - it is that simple.

The difference in the collected vs the working gait is so incredible by the time one gets to GP, that the horse canters along looking perfectly fluid and energetic, yet he gains less ground to the front and has a rounder stride; even though it looks perfectly 'normal', without any exaggerated lifting of the neck and head by the shoulder muscles, without slowing, shuffling, pausing, jerking or bobbing up and down (or, most importantly, 'patting the ground' without energy from the hind legs), there is a big difference in how much ground he covers. It is because of the shape of the stride, and the shape of stride is possible because of a very, very simple classical principle - you put the hind quarters exactly behind the shoulders, do correct half halt, and the horse can 'carry' himself on his haunches.

And often rather suddenly giving him that knowlege and power turns him into a very, very naughty horse. No one should be surprised.

Teaching a horse this is NOT usually the 'quiet ride' or the patter in the park Bennett pretends it should be. The reaction should be that the animal revels in his new found power like a teenager who just got the keys to Dad's Porsche. In plain English, he should actually start acting like a complete ass, and it should take quite some time to cool down that exhuberance, but it should never be entirely extinguished. He should suddenly feel like he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, and he should be ecstatic. Suddenly, he feels just as good under saddle as he does when running around in a field.

The training of the horse is really like a pyramid. The basic fundamentals make up a strong base, and each training 'block' is put on top of that foundation.

We develop all the elements in concert, the activity, the balance, the rider's position, suppleness. And the thing we hear all the time as we learn is 'too much of that', and 'too little of this', we are really like a conductor conducting a big orchestra, come on brass, come on strings, not so much percussion, come on more percussion, and trying to get all the instruments in the orchestra to play in balance, together.

And that, that togetherness that makes dressage so beautiful, is precisely what makes it so hard, and precisely what makes instruction so valuable, because it teaches us to be a better conductor.

Why do we need levels? Because what we did at the previous level is not sufficient. You were straight at training level, didn't you think? You were supple at training level, didn't you think? You could sit and follow the gaits at training level, didn't you think? But when you try the next thing, all of a sudden, it's not enough, and it's like you suddenly realize you're still learning how to ride!

How about it is the same at first level, and second, and third, and on up? We remake ourselves every day, and every day, what we did yesterday isn't good enough. That's dressage, and that's why we need the levels.

If the foundation is weak, you cannot build the next level. But without improving change and growing, you can't build the next level either.

Fun stuff, and why one great old master (Neckermann, I think), when told by his doctor he was too crippled up to ride any more (at 72, I think), he protested, 'but I have so much yet left to learn!'

[merrygoround]

I've run across several ladies who follow Deb Bennett religiously. Go to clinics to ride and dissect horses. Love the idea that they are learning something 'more classic than competitive dressage'. Read a lot. Talk about it a lot. But the one thing that seemed strange to me..... they don't ride their horses on any kind of regular basis. They are clinic junkies that follow a whole bunch of strange 'revolutionary' gurus. They are so busy learning stuff they have a good excuse not to ride, and when they do, they won't go out of the arena and are afraid to canter. Deb is a wonderful enabler for this type of rider, because she claims you should do a lot of work at walk to learn dressage.


Oh Heaven's!, doncha know, they're all over the place, looking down their noses at us old fools who will never know "classical dressage", and actually trailride our horses:eek: Not restricted to the female of the species either. :lol:

[Bats79]

Well, I'm not too certain about her comments on Baucher flexions and the reference to "twirling" but she certainly has misunderstood Fillis' flexions. His involved no "rotation" and definitely required that the jaw "give" at the same time. The flexion required a mobilisation of the tongue and jaw so it was definitely flexion not "twirling".

[Funckyfilly]

I personally think Dr. B is confusing connection with collection.

[slc2]

Can you explain that more?

[Bogie]

Wow, just Wow :eek:.

All these years of riding with trainers and I have completely missed the boat :lol:.

I'm running right out to the circus supply store so that I can get one of them collection-teaching drums so that I can achieve collection in a much more fun and effective way. To hell with the training scale :D.

[CatOnLap]

Note where the sweat is - on the neck and shoulders, and ask yourself what part of the horse has to make up for it when the horse is crooked or not collected enough - the front end winds up laboring - the shoulder and neck

Remind me to always log in before viewing so the nonsense I have on ignore doesn't show up.

Just as an example, when there are flies in the soup, it spoils the whole soup. And when there is misinformation in a post, the whole post might as well be thrown in the cr@pper.

Sweat may or may not indiciate where the horse or athlete is labouring more. Funny thing, when I am walking fast, my head sweats. But when I am thinking, it doesn't . I suppose I must be using my head more when I walk! Or for heaven's sake, my armpits sweat when I am walking too. Those armpit muscles must be getting a work out- right? The place that doesn't sweat much when I am walking are my legs- so I suppose I am not using them correctly. Funny , they get me where I am going...

The horse's neck area is a broad radiator for heat- more surface area than substance compared to other areas of the body, and very well supplied with both sweat glands and circulation. It is one of the most efficient areas for a horse to rid itself of excess heat. It does not indicate that the horse is labouring more in front. What twaddle.

Just like our heads- very well endowed with sweat glands and circulation and the most efficient area to rid ourselves of excessive heat, hence we sweat on our heads even when we're not using them. Your head sweating yet?

[Centuree]

Articles like this infuriate me, because they assume all horses start with the exact same prototype, but due to bad/good riding, this prototype changes to the ideal or unideal horse.

Some horses have short necks, fat necks, built downhill, etc.... and some horses are built for dressage (or collection) not that I agree with her interpretation of collections, whereas others are aimed towards other things, like speed.

[slc2]

I don't always agree with what you write, Catonlap, but don't stoop to such things.

Yes, the neck is a general place for radiating heat.

And sweating should take place based on exertion and heat, or the animal has some health problem.

And a horse that is working harder because it is too long, or crooked (while trying to do work that requires a certain amount of collection or straightness), does, in fact, sweat more on specific places on its body, and differently than it normally does.

Horses sweat. That's true. But I feel that, when it is working more correctly, you will see less sweat and better distributed sweat.

Too, horses even will sweat harder on one side of their neck, you are going to suggest that's because the neck is a general place for radiating heat too? I feel it has to do with what muscles are generating more heat. They will sweat on one side depending on training issues.

I think the pattern of the sweat on an animal can be a very helpful indicator in training. True, each animal has a pattern of sweating that's normal for it, but observing where the animal sweats and when and how that changes, is quite helpful.

You don't think so? That doesn't bother me.

[Bluey]

I admire people like Dr Bennett for her ideas, if not all are quite realistic.
I do quote her articles to many with questions, not because they are the last word and to be learned by heart and obeyed on faith, but because they tend to start people quesioning what they know and looking for more answers.

THAT is what is good in the work that Dr Bennett and others like her do, that don't really work to train, compete and become really knowledgeable in any discipline.
Since such "academic" people do know so much and much more than most of the rest of us in some ways, sometimes they tend to feel that others just don't know much and dismiss the rest of the world off hand.;)

There really is a middle ground there, where much is to be learned from everyone, but the student needs to become more selective, which gets easier the more we learn.
We may find that some teachers insist on are more a theory in search of proof than reality gives credence to.
Some of Dr Bennett's ideas may fall in that category.

I would say that some people, when they interact with horses all day long DOING something, training and riding and competing at something, compared with doing a little here and sitting back and observing and never really working day after day after day with horses as you both are doing something, there tends to be a disconnect with what really works with most horses and what is theory
Just as there is a disconnect with those that may have "trained" horses all their lives to just ride, but didn't learn the technical aspects behind what they and the horses do.

One example, a very good colt starter that can ride the hide off any horse, as they say here, but has never understood what leads are.
Such a person can't do much else than get from point A to B on a horse, although he can probably do that and get there on a rank horse better than most.:yes:

The more we know, the more we know we don't know and also the more we can tell when someone is really knowledgeable about what they are talking about and when they are mostly guessing or outright missing the mark, as we truly know better.

I think that Dr Bennett has her limits and the more technical knowledge dressage, reining or other technical disciplines require is obviously one of those, to anyone familiar with that kind of knowledge in depth.

[slc2]

I think those are very perceptive observations.

[AZ Native]

I think those are very perceptive observations.


Yep.

[Musn'tGrumble]

deleted

[slc2]

She is right, though, there are areas of the body where blood vessels are close to the surface and those areas are in fact, radiators.

But it's also true that specific patterns of sweat, and changes in the pattern of sweat, are significant....and I have seen and continue to see, horses sweating more in the 'wrong' areas when there is a training issue, and less when there is not.

When an animal is sweating almost all over, such as when it's very hot, it's not as easy to see, then it is more what parts start sweating first, and changes in sweat patterns. Reheating and other problems tend to lessen as the animal gets more fit...experienced riders still look for sweat between the hind legs because it still means the muscles of the hind quarters are working.

[Ghazzu]

I can't go with your analogy. Circulation of blood around a human takes about a minute, around a horse it takes about an hour,

Where on *earth* did you get *that* idea?

[Musn'tGrumble]

From a very experienced horse vet

[class]

which makes sense, because the horse is approximately 60 times larger than a human but has the same size heart, so it takes 60x longer to circulate the blood... ??

not to contradict your "very experienced horse vet" but google says that:

Horse of average size has approximately 50 pints of blood (28 liters) which circulate through his system every 40 seconds.

[draftdriver]

It just so happens that I have. She has done extensive work on the anatomy of the horse, and continues her study of the muscle-bone interactions. She brought along quite the selection of bones for us to have a look at. Some of her observations with regard to 'sidedness' of horses were very revealing, as were many of the photos in her presentations.

In the mounted sessions, she had the riders doing exercises identical with those of another BNT dressage guru whom many of you here have lavished praise on, and whose clinics I have both ridden in and audited. Also, she stressed the importance of the release, and of timing of the aids. I saw horses respond to her body language instantly (and she was not being aggressive at all) where they had ignored or plowed through their owners. It was a very interesting three days.

I think that Dr. Bennet has some points which are quite valid. It is up to the reader/participant to filter all inputs and decide which ideas to follow up on and which to discard.

[Ghazzu]

From a very experienced horse vet

Well, it must have lost something in the translation, then.

[mickeydoodle]

From a very experienced horse vet


If your vet saw a horse with that slow circulation time, it must have been a stuffed horse. Blood cannot possibly crawl along vessels that slowly and not clot. Even hibernating amphibians (frogs etc) in the cold mud have quicker circulation than that.

[LarkspurCO]

From a very experienced horse vet

How does this experienced horse vet explain how IV sedation starts working almost immediately?

[AZ Native]

It just so happens that I have. She has done extensive work on the anatomy of the horse, and continues her study of the muscle-bone interactions. She brought along quite the selection of bones for us to have a look at. Some of her observations with regard to 'sidedness' of horses were very revealing, as were many of the photos in her presentations.

In the mounted sessions, she had the riders doing exercises identical with those of another BNT dressage guru whom many of you here have lavished praise on, and whose clinics I have both ridden in and audited. Also, she stressed the importance of the release, and of timing of the aids. I saw horses respond to her body language instantly (and she was not being aggressive at all) where they had ignored or plowed through their owners. It was a very interesting three days.

I think that Dr. Bennet has some points which are quite valid. It is up to the reader/participant to filter all inputs and decide which ideas to follow up on and which to discard.

Interesting ! Especially the second paragraph !Thanks for your input. If you would tell us more about the clinic, how it relates to her article, and how she addresses contact, that would be wonderful !:cool:

[draftdriver]

Interesting ! Especially the second paragraph !Thanks for your input. If you would tell us more about the clinic, how it relates to her article, and how she addresses contact, that would be wonderful !:cool:

Since the article is so large, I'll focus on page 6, "Riding Light and Straight". To me, her discussions of straightness and sidedness were the most interesting part of the presentations. The pictures she used in her presentations, and the ground exercises she had us doing, were very revealing. We all know that almost every horse and person favours one side over the other. We also know that in order to move most efficiently, straightness is desirable. It is, as you know, up there on the pyramid of dressage training, before collection.

Some of this sidedness comes from eye dominance, i.e. right or left eye used more, which causes a slight turn of the head, which in turn affects the horse all the way down the spine, and even down to the shape of the hooves. The pictures for this part were amazing.

The horses that I saw in this workshop were of a variety of conformations and backgrounds -- QH, TB, etc. No big Warmbloods. They were either green or well-broke, but none would have been prepared for a Second Level test. Dr. Bennett worked some of the horses on a loose lunge line, asking the horse to stay out on the circle and to step under with the inside hind leg. She also did some of the "head twirling". It was not a large movement of the head, at least not on these horses who had never been introduced to it previously. It was interesting to see the various horses' reaction to it. Some softened quite remarkably. Others were resistant to the notion, but did soften somewhat after a few minutes. I noted that Dr. Bennett didn't force the issue, but would take a break from the one task, and come back to it after a mintue or two.

For mounted exercises, timing of the aids to ask the inside hind leg to step under the body predominated. Some of the riders had no idea when that inside hind was in the air! For rein contact, Dr. Bennett asked the riders to ask for a slight inside bend, with an immediate release when the horse offered even the slightest response. Again, some of the riders were not confident with their feel of response, and were not as quick to release as would have been optimal. Those who got it, really had some great responses from their horses in terms of improved gait and that always-wanted pushing-power from the hind end.

All of the above are my interpretations and observations. It seems to me that Dr. Bennett is striving to train/ride her horses with straightness, and have them be light and responsive, and in self-carriage. That she is approaching this from a more anatomical perspective than some, is quite interesting, and IMO there is something to be learned from this approach.

[Carol Ames]

But it's also true that specific patterns of sweat, and changes in the pattern of sweat, are significant....and I have seen and continue to see, horses sweating more in the 'wrong' areas when there is a training issue, and less when there is not.

When an animal is sweating almost all over, such as when it's very hot, it's not as easy to see, then it is more what parts start sweating first, and changes in sweat patterns. Reheating and other problems tend to lessen as the animal gets more fit...experienced riders still look for sweat between the hind legs because it still means the muscles of the hind quarters are working.
************

[Carol Ames]

When I last saw. Dr. Bennett, she had appeared at a sally Swift Centered Riding Instructors clinic; since dr.Bennett had never taken a BASIC nCentered Riding clinic, she knew" too much", she was not qualified to either teach or be taught; at that point her "thing " was "doubling " which, I understood to be a technique used by the Spanishhorsemen, in a lindell, aka side pull, It consisted of puling the horses' head around to the riders' leg:eek:, after whichthe horse then carried himself with an arched "telescopingneck"I do actually know of a dressasge instructor who teaches this; she refers to it as "challenging the horse" (:confused:)