long lining on circle - some advice needed

[staceyk]

Hi,

I'm working on long lining my 3 year old with the intent of improving his steering and accepting a bit of contact. He's doing great around the perimeter of the ring and he's turning well at the walk and trot. Here are our issues...

--On a circle (as if we're lungeing) he seems to want to stay close, on a 15 meter circle. I try to use the outside rein to direct him out, which works but also tends to slow or stop the forward motion. I also use a lunge whip at his shoulder to help direct him but I have to admit it's tough to manage everything with two hands, and I tend to drop contact.
-- On the circle, he is simply not as forward as he is in "driving mode." I'm constantly clucking/cracking.

Thanks for any advice!

[mvp]

You will get all kinds of replies to your question, and probably wish you could have someone "live" at hand to help you work through this with your young horse.

But if you want advice from the random internetter, here goes--

First, you and I may disagree on what long-lining a young 'un is for. For a three-year-old who probably is unbacked or just about, all I want is steering, stopping and going forward. In that order. I don't worry about how he's using his body, and certainly not contact.

To answer your question, I'd say get forward first and that means moving away from a line waved at his but. In fact, I start out with babies asking them to turn by imposing contact on, say, the new outside rein, and letting them find a way to "make it go away" by turning.

Second, I do everything very, very slowly, and in pieces. With your horse, I'd be walking and get: 1)turning away from me, perhaps toward a wall that helps him finish the turn: 2) turning away from me with the wall in order to get "whoa" from rein pressure; and 3) turning toward me as in making first U-turn and then a smaller circle; 4) Get "whoa" here while you are holding the inside rein by picking up the outside and letting him walk into it.

From cruising around, you get forward. You also get forward with a (slight) squat from the hind end by asking your horse to go forward for the second half of a turn (away from you and toward a wall at first).

Finally(!) all that means that forward from your horse might come from the work you already do having him turn toward a wall. Here you wave the new outside line at him as he's facing the wall, compressing him between the wall and the scary line. If you have timed all this right, he'll rock back to avoid bumping his nose and finish the turn moving forward. In this case, you have taught him that the loose, waving outside line can mean go forward.

I don't hold a whip when I long-line. It's too much for my head and my hands! But I do teach horses that bit pressure means "follow it" and a waving line might bump them in the butt and means "get away from it."

Hope this helps. If not, I'll come over to your house and just show you.

[Equibrit]

Go buy "Long Reining" by Philipe Karl.

[Renae]

Your whip is your legs when you are long lining or driving. If your horse has no respect for it cracking you need to actually use it on him. In a circle in long lines you need your horse to be working up to the outside rein and bending off the inside rein. If he is not moving forward use your body language in a more rear area of his body with your voice and whip and if the whip means nothing to the horse use the whip either on the top of his rump or the back of his hocks. If you don't think you can handle your horse suddenly going forward in long lines introduce "Better Respect for the Whip 101" on a lunge line. Once your horse is moving forward and to the outside rein you can use the inside rein to get proper bend on the circle, aided by whip at the barrel at the same place you would use your leg if needed. Horses should learn to move from your whip in long lines in the same manner that they move from yout legs and whip in the saddle, they should not be scared of the whip and it should not be used violently, but it should also not be a useless thing in your hand. A pop on the haunches, a sweep against the hocks or a pop i the barrel should definatly mean something, and from that using your body language with the whip will come to mean something.

Never use your reins as a substitue for a whip when long lining because you are too clumsy to hold a whip. That is just sloppy, and the reins are hooked to his mouth. Anything you do to the reins will transmit to his mouth. I would never use a "loose, waving line" to scare or slap a horse forward, all of that will transmit through the line to the bit, and that is just :eek:

Long lining well and in a productive manner is a "deep" thing and is something you should definatly find an instructor to help you with.

[staceyk]

Hi,

He is "lightly" under saddle (5 rides) and a very easy-going guy. Video of his progress is at behindthebitblog.com (kind of like the Truman Show for this horse).

I got the Jennie Loriston-Clarke book and wish it had the kind of detail you all are providing. Thanks for the book and training suggestions.

He's not the least frightened of the reins or whip, and I do sometimes touch him with the whip -- don't worry too much about a big reaction/spook. It's just a lot to manage and react appropriately when he does go forward. He works fairly well off voice commands, about 85%, but saying "trot" doesn't get a super forward trot.

Again, my goals are pretty modest.

[Roan]

Go buy "Long Reining" by Philipe Karl.

I second this.

Eileen

[staceyk]

Used, on amazon.com, for $13. Thanks!

[Renae]

If yo have not done a lot of long lining it can be very helpful to long line a long lining "schoolmaster" horse. If you know anyone who has an old Arab, Half-Arab, Saddlebred, Hackney or Morgan show horse they usually know how to long line very well. It will give you more of a chance to learn how to use your aids when long lining correctly then trying to learn to long line while teaching a youngster :)

[bort84]

The problem with long lining is that it takes lots and lots of practice to be good at it. It can be hard for non trainers to get that kind of exposure. I know that sucks, but you will get better at having a whip and two long lines to manage as you go, it just takes time. Also, you generally don't have the same feel of contact that you do while on a horse's back. The weight of the long lines takes up a bit of that feel, so don't expect to always have the exact same feel/contact you have when riding.

Do you have a round pen? A little bit of work in the round pen can help your horse get the idea while you're learning. It's a little bit of a cheat, but the walls help you out when you're a little too slow. Obviously you don't want to drill too hard on small circles at this point, but a little bit won't hurt.

Also, for yourself, when you're in an open space, just practice guiding, stopping, turning. It'll be good for him, and if you keep it slow, you won't confuse him as much while you're getting better with your timing.

Perhaps spend some time practicing with a longe whip until you're quite good with it? I used to go out and aim for things - a coffee can on a fence post, blades of grass, etc. Get to where you can actually hit what you aim, that will help a LOT. It will also help strengthen your arms so they don't get so tired when you're holding it.

This really is a case of practice practice practice, sadly. If you can find someone in your area who could give you a couple long lining lessons and maybe has a more experienced horse, you will likely get a lot of benefit from it.

Long lining is NOT easy. And just because you can ride well doesn't mean you're going to be good at long lining, so don't feel too bad. I rarely see people long lining that are doing it well (even quite a few trainers, haha).

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I'm very interested in these replies, as every bit of knowledge I can soak up on this is so helpful!

But I have a question for Renae - while the whip is a necessary aid (for that "between the aids/slinky" effect), can't you also use the reins as an invitation forward? So when we long rein, I try and offer up one or the other rein if I am asking him to step into that rein. Also, and maybe I am not explaining this well, but you establish where you want the bit to be and ask the horse to meet that contact?

Sometimes, too, we ripple the reins forward to ask for more forward?

So - aren't the reins part of the asking for forward?

[buck22]

Sometimes, too, we ripple the reins forward to ask for more forward?

having dabbled in driving and lucking out with an exceptional teacher, whip and voice were the go buttons, never a ripple or wave or crack of the rein as the rein is attached to the bit and sends an annoying meaningless signal. but long lining maven I am not, :winkgrin: so I'd love to hear more about this too.

I gotta say though, all this long lining talk has got me stoked to do it again... pity the poor pony, mwahaha!

[staceyk]

Even with these little issues, I was completely surprised at how much fun this is for me, and what great exercise it is. I love having a light exercise option that isn't the constant circling that lungeing is. My horse seems to enjoy it AND he shows a solid acceptance of the bit and gets a swing through his back that I don't see on a circle when lungeing.

I would definitely do a clinic if one was offered in my area.

[bort84]

I'm very interested in these replies, as every bit of knowledge I can soak up on this is so helpful!

But I have a question for Renae - while the whip is a necessary aid (for that "between the aids/slinky" effect), can't you also use the reins as an invitation forward? So when we long rein, I try and offer up one or the other rein if I am asking him to step into that rein. Also, and maybe I am not explaining this well, but you establish where you want the bit to be and ask the horse to meet that contact?

Sometimes, too, we ripple the reins forward to ask for more forward?

So - aren't the reins part of the asking for forward?

You need to allow the horse to go forward into the lines certainly, but, in general, you should not be using them as the signal to go forward. Use your voice, body language, or a flick of the whip to ask for forward. If you start trying to actually use the lines as forward encouragement or as a forward cue (rippling or trying to lightly smack the haunches with the lines) , it's going to read through to the bit and send a conflicting message (go, stop, what?).

Again, you need to allow the forward movement into your hands just like you would while riding, but you also have to ask for it through voice, body, or the whip - you have to produce some energy, then your hands can "catch" it. That's why it's really important that you have enough control over the whip to use it without affecting your contact with is mouth. Practicing using a whip is fairly easy to do without a horse, so then it's easier to add to the lines without feeling like you have quite so much new stuff to manage.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

bort84 - thank you! You explained exactly what I was fumbling to clarify.

[keana]

I love the Long Reining by Philipe Karl book!

What I do is I ripple the rein and use a voice cue and look at the horse's shoulders in a "driving way" to drive them out away from me not forward, This is first done on the lunge as is getting a shape forward responce with the whip.

Dirving away and out to keep space between you and the horse and the horse going forward are two diffrent things you teach a horse on the lines.


if I have to use a whip I do that also but my horses learn my cue and have been drove out to repect my space from when they where on the lunge.

The horse should be able to be drown out and asked to come in on the lunge before moving on to long reining.



The force of the ripple I use depends on the horses reaction I always start out light, may go crazy if they try to run me over.

But most horses find the ripple unpleasent so a very light ripple will be a cue if you horse don't feed him self out when you offer more line which should be what he does.

This is what Philipe Karl says about this in his book

as he calls the ripples down the line " making sharp undulations on the inside rein.

I'll type out what Philipe Karl says about this in his book below ....


"The trainers first care must be to impress on his horse respect for the distance that separates horse from the trainer.

to send the horse on to the end of his rein one must begin with walk on the straight.

The trainer takes up his position level with the quarters, to keep the horse in front of him and guarantee forward movement....

He moves parallel to the track.

the trainer will keep the horse away from him by making sharp undulations on the inside rein every time this is necessary.

Thus right from the first lessons the horse will go staight down the track and right into the corners always at the end of taut reins."

So with that I would have to say that yes it does send a annoying but not meaningless signal in my book, well Karl's book if you take his word for it.

if you used is correctly and I don't think it's in bad taste to use in training I have found it usedful I also agree with who ever said


" Your whip is your legs when you are long lining or driving. If your horse has no respect for it cracking you need to actually use it on him."

I dislike carrying a whip at all times so for me my voice is my whip and I get my horses to respect my voice cue.

The ripple is to drive the horse away from you, not make it go forward.

Edit to add that

[imapepper]

Could someone post some video links for more advanced long lining? I have really only used it to introduce basic steering/contact and the ever important whoa. I would love to improve my long lining skills or lack therof and would love to see good video examples :)

[bort84]

Hmm, I think it must just be a terminology thing because I'm not really familiar with this technique being referred to as a "ripple." When you "ripple" are you using the inside rein to push the horse out, as a correction? Ripple just sounded to me like flapping the line a bit to get the horse out (like, flapping their butt with it), so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

If I'm working a horse that doesn't generally need much whip encouragement, you can also put it in your hand so it just trails behind you - then it's there if you need it and it's a much less tiring hand hold, just for those that find carrying it a bit too tiring and clumsy and don't always need it.

If you get your horse responding well to your voice, you won't need it that often.

[buck22]

I love the Long Reining by Philipe Karl book!

What I do is I ripple the rein and use a voice cue and look at the horse's shoulders in a "driving way" to drive them out away from me not forward, This is first done on the lunge as is getting a shape forward responce with the whip.

Dirving away and out to keep space between you and the horse and the horse going forward are two diffrent things you teach a horse on the lines.

The ripple is to drive the horse away from you, not make it go forward.

THAT makes a good deal of sense, as a corrective to keep the horse from slinking in too closely. I too am thinking about this rippling rein as bort, a la "giddy-up"

Oh I wish it wasn't raining, I want to go play :)

[twofatponies]

Don't know if this is standard, or helpful, but it was for me:

(And this is from a long-lining the driving horse perspective, not a dressage/in-hand type perspective.)

When you put the horse on a circle you aim yourself behind them. Say you are standing on a clock face. As the horse is walking across "2 o'clock" you are facing noon. This is perhaps a bit exaggerated to counteract two faults - one is the tendency to "follow the horse around the circle" and the other is the tendency to get in front of the driving line and face the shoulder. By being more conscious of staying behind the driving line you don't shut down the forward momentum. It can help to stare at the inside hind foot - again, helps prevent you staring at the horse's head or shoulder, which puts your energy in front of the forwardness instead of behind it.

Does that make sense?

And also, let the horse walk into the contact and follow him, rather than trying to set a contact with your hands, which will block his forward motion. But you probably know that. I find that long-lining I have to be much more aware of "float" in my arms and upper body than when I am riding.

If you are using a lunge whip change it out for a shorter, lighter driving whip, too. A heavy whip will kill your poor arm.

[keana]

Hmm, I think it must just be a terminology thing because I'm not really familiar with this technique being referred to as a "ripple." When you "ripple" are you using the inside rein to push the horse out, as a correction? Ripple just sounded to me like flapping the line a bit to get the horse out (like, flapping their butt with it), so perhaps that's where the confusion is.

If I'm working a horse that doesn't generally need much whip encouragement, you can also put it in your hand so it just trails behind you - then it's there if you need it and it's a much less tiring hand hold, just for those that find carrying it a bit too tiring and clumsy and don't always need it.

If you get your horse responding well to your voice, you won't need it that often.


I call it a Ripple, Karl calls it a "making sharp undulations on the inside rein"

Yes, you have it! your using the inside rein to push the horse out, as a correction. or a way or letting him understand he it not to get too close to you and keep the reins from floping.

But the line goes from your hand to the horses mouth your not hiting there butt with it! your just making it come alive.




Never flap the horse on the butt with the reins to make it go unless you really have to go NOW for saftey reasons like the horse is going to rear or you need to go past something or your mare is thinking mmmmmm kicking would be fun and giving the horse that went past her the old evil eye and you don't have a whip and it's the only way out.

[keana]

Could someone post some video links for more advanced long lining? I have really only used it to introduce basic steering/contact and the ever important whoa. I would love to improve my long lining skills or lack therof and would love to see good video examples :)







Let me get you some links I have enjoyed.

[keana]

Clay Maier clinic very good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOBSxWFd7SA&feature=channel_page

Clay Maier playing with his horse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5XzIMk7dyE&feature=channel_page

people long lining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDX3Rehw484&feature=channel_page

Should have the irons tied so they don't flap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrXsnVtowvw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrYPb5FQ7vI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_uwrpo9MJo&feature=channel_page

Pros doing it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvAvA50-GhA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_lDuiwmYOs&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50hyHZi_jA&feature=channel_page

Horses learning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM_DlStN5AE&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHJiJICQctg&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHJiJICQctg&feature=channel_page

[bort84]

I call it a Ripple, Karl calls it a "making sharp undulations on the inside rein"

Yes, you have it! your using the inside rein to push the horse out, as a correction. or a way or letting him understand he it not to get too close to you and keep the reins from floping.

But the line goes from your hand to the horses mouth your not hiting there butt with it! your just making it come alive.




Never flap the horse on the butt with the reins to make it go unless you really have to go NOW for saftey reasons like the horse is going to rear or you need to go past something or your mare is thinking mmmmmm kicking would be fun and giving the horse that went past her the old evil eye and you don't have a whip and it's the only way out.

Haha, okay, because I was worried a ripple meant shake your line at the horse to get him to go, and I thought, ooh, that's not good. The movement you actually meant is much more reasonable, haha. Plus, that followed with a slight flick of the whip at the shoulder/midsection can get a slightly "dense" horse to understand what you're meaning - aaah, you want me to scoot over there and not get in your space, I see = )

Also, another thing that is really important while long lining is to follow your horse. Get those feet and arms moving, you've got to be quick and right there with them. Sometimes you may have to step back a bit, slow down, go faster, etc, and your arms have to be flexible. I think that's something many people forget when first starting too. At least I remember back when I first started working in long lines that I was a bit stiff, and if you're stiff, you're not maintaining good contact with your horse.

[imapepper]

Keana - thanks for the links. The one with the Friesian doing the flying changes and such was really cool :)

[ideayoda]

If you want the horse to go to a larger circle, simply change directions a few times (esp in trot) or figure 8, and they will stay out.

[angel]

The longlines should never be allowed to drag the ground. This is a safety issue. Keep the excess line coiled in each hand.