Getting the bell -- now what?

[normandy_shores]

*puts on flamesuit*

There's a chance I'll get the bell this weekend. I have adjusted my tests, show management knew I had a horse a bit off and that I have a vet's certificate should I need to scratch. We have been under a vet's care, and he says to continue working him (obviously not too hard).

I am scheduled to show, and going anyhow (flamesuit). We'll ride our tests (assuming he's having a "good" day) and do a short/easy warmup. If we get rung out, we're there to support our barnmates that are going and enjoy the camping trip and social aspect. (Note: horsey is doing well, but in the last week sometimes later in the ride starts to take the occassional uneven step -- no head bobbing or unwillingness).

So if/when I get the bell, dismount and walk out? In the case of a multiday show... do you give it a try the next day or just scratch the whole thing?

[class]

So if/when I get the bell, dismount and walk out? In the case of a multiday show... do you give it a try the next day or just scratch the whole thing?

it just says you will be eliminated, it doesn't say you must immediately dismount.

if you are not too embarassed to show the first day and get eliminated, why would you scratch the second day?

[Paint Pony]

If the bell rings and you are requested to leave the ring, then walk out under saddle.
If it is a multi-day show, try again the next day--assuming it is too late for refund of fees.
You may want to have a chat with the TD at the show grounds, and say the horse has vet approval etc. I would talk with the TD before approaching the show manager, but that's just 'cus I have yet to meet a show manager--at any size show--who is not a barking bunch of nerves on show day.
I admire your attitude about the comaraderie: keep this firm.

[Ibex]

Sorry he isn't doing better!!!

I'd just take it one day/ride at a time. There's nothing saying you can't warm-up and then decide to scratch. Have you ridden at MREC before? I'll warn you that the footing can be a bit tough on them depending on the nature of the injury...

[equusaround]

If your horse has an "owie" that is not life threatening, why not have your vet give you something that is LEGAL to use - aspirin, bute...all of these have legal doses that don't hurt the horse and can smooth out the hurts of old age, over use or strain. You have to declare them and you need to be cognizant of the legal doses and the administration time, but the your horse has a chance to look sound and feel better and you can avoid the bell. The rules for drugs are in the USEF rule book. Generally, in a 1,000 lb. horse you can give a gram of bute 12 hours before you ride (I think). So after your first day's rides, you can bute again that night for the next day. I think you can also piggy back bute and aspirin too for more bang for your buck! But when you get to the show grounds, you need to find either show management or the TD and declare the drugs, fill out a form (and keep a copy just in case you get drug tested).

Since national level dressage horses can use mild anti-inflamatories and show, you should keep your horse feeling good and sound. Of course, you can't do anything in an FEI class.

If it is muscle soreness, you might also try giving your horse a homeopathic remedy like Arnica Montana. That is even legal for FEI 3-day eventing because I checked with the TD and FEI veterinarian at Galway International 3-day Event last fall if I could give some to the horses after x-country and she said it was legal. I'd declare it anyway at a dressaeg show to be on the safe side.

[normandy_shores]

Thanks for the responses and support guys!

As for dismounting, this suggestion came from a judge while scribing. It so happens this judge will be at the show (though not judging me).

As for bute/aspirin, I've looked up the legal amount, but you can only use ONE non-steroidal anti-inflammatory.

Frankly, bute has had little effect. Some days he's better and some days he's a bit worse, and it has no correlation to the bute so far. He felt REALLY good the other day when the TB switch went off and he spent 20 minutes galloping around and romping and bucking, haha. He's happy to go forward and whatnot, though after 3 weeks off the work ethic isn't quite there.

He IS sounder on the concrete than on the hogsfuel, so maybe MREC's harder footing will help me out?

One ride at a time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! Thanks!

[Ibex]

Normany Shores is in Canada - last time I checked it wasn't legal to show on Bute here, despite a push to allow it at the lower levels so new riders can have a chance to show on the old guys who might need an asprin to be happy in their jobs.

[normandy_shores]

Normany Shores is in Canada - last time I checked it wasn't legal to show on Bute here, despite a push to allow it at the lower levels so new riders can have a chance to show on the old guys who might need an asprin to be happy in their jobs.


something like 15 micrometers per millilitre is legal. No idea what that equates to! I've been reading the rule books lately... (though Jules is off bute now).

[Donkey]

Sorry he isn't doing better!!!

I'd just take it one day/ride at a time. There's nothing saying you can't warm-up and then decide to scratch. Have you ridden at MREC before? I'll warn you that the footing can be a bit tough on them depending on the nature of the injury...

A show at MREC this weekend *sigh* that explains why the weather has taken a turn for the worse! LOL! It always seems to rain there. I think the footing in the rings is great there rain or shine, though my least favourite is the small warm up ring by the barns - sometimes I find it a bit deep in spots, but they do take excellent care of all of the rings and cross country course.

Good luck and have fun! You won't be the first or the last to be in this predicament. I say keep trying the next day and if you do get rung out go for a relaxing hack on the field - if your horse is unsound doing corners/circles and such it doesn't mean a light hack won't help.

[Ibex]

A show at MREC this weekend *sigh* that explains why the weather has taken a turn for the worse! LOL! It always seems to rain there. I think the footing in the rings is great there rain or shine, though my least favourite is the small warm up ring by the barns - sometimes I find it a bit deep in spots, but they do take excellent care of all of the rings and cross country course.

Good luck and have fun! You won't be the first or the last to be in this predicament. I say keep trying the next day and if you do get rung out go for a relaxing hack on the field.

It's Maple Ridge. Of COURSE it's going to pour. Either that or be 40C... (hey, at least you can always jump in the river!)

[atlatl]

The bell can get rung for other reasons. I wouldn't dismount and leave immediately. Stop and then walk over to the judge to hear what they have to say; you may have made a wrong turn...

If you feel that the horse is off, you probably should scratch. As mentioned above, there's nothing wrong with waiting until you've warmed up to decide.

[egontoast]

I don't understand why you would wait for the bell to tell you your horse is off. You will know if the horse is off in the warmup, won't you? If your horse is off in the warm up why would you not just scratch?

[merrygoround]

Working him does not equate to showing him in a competition that prizes evenness.

You paid your money, you insisted on your money's worth. Now smile:)and take your lumps.

PS I would have scratched. :yes:

[narcisco]

I would carefully consider my goals for showing and would probably not show until the odds of being rung out are much less. Showing well can be hard work on a horse, and I'm just not seeing the motivation to put yourself or your horse through that, but you might convince me there's a good reason to show.

[Ibex]

Just before y'all eat the poor OP alive... this isn't the kind of show where you would wreck your reputation by bringing an iffy horse and playing it by ear. It's a benefit show, lots of people just starting out on a wide range of horses. I haven't ridden in it, but have heard it's a ton of fun! That facility is as much about camping and hanging out and going for an amble through the XC course as it is about serious showing. I'm sure she'll scratch if he feels off at the time...

[Fixerupper]

Just before y'all eat the poor OP alive... this isn't the kind of show where you would wreck your reputation by bringing an iffy horse and playing it by ear. ...

OK here's me - ranting every chance I get - that the drug testing (FEI level) is over the top because not every rider out there is trying to show unsound horses, mostly they are just trying to support equine athletes in a fair and reasonable manner...don't let's make the competitors the bad guys..blah...blah...blah..
And here we have an ammy (no pressure to compete other than 'fun' and 'support barn mates') that is taking a known lame horse to a show...and shouldn't feel bad about getting eliminated...try again next week...

Apparently...I am sooo wrong :no:

Yup with the flamesuit!!!...but of course it's all about wrecking your reputation...

[Arathita]

To each his own, but I agree with FixerUpper. I believe that the veterinarian's certificate is useful should the OP attempt to get show money back, it is not a "pass" to show.

I would not put an "iffy" horse through the stress of trailering and staying in show grounds stall so I could have fun. Ibex, no one is eating the OP alive but she did post this on a public board and so should expect diverse opinions. Especially on this type of topic.

[slc2]

Agree with FixerUpper.

[Coreene]

Count me in FixerUpper's corner, too.

[citydog]

Yep.

[Ibex]

Okaaaay... you've all completly missed the point. Maybe reread the original post?

The horse is not continuously lame. He's older, and is having some uneven moments but is happy and forward in his job. OP was asking about the way to deal with it if he comes up off in a test.

[Fixerupper]

There's a chance I'll get the bell this weekend. I have adjusted my tests, show management knew I had a horse a bit off and that I have a vet's certificate should I need to scratch. We have been under a vet's care, and he says to continue working him (obviously not too hard).

I am scheduled to show, and going anyhow (flamesuit). We'll ride our tests (assuming he's having a "good" day) and do a short/easy warmup. If we get rung out, we're there to support our barnmates that are going and enjoy the camping trip and social aspect. (Note: horsey is doing well, but in the last week sometimes later in the ride starts to take the occassional uneven step -- no head bobbing or unwillingness).

ummm not so much

[atr]

You've got to be pretty damned off to get rung out. The odd irregular step isn't going to do it. If my horse was bad enough that I was worried about it, I'd probably leave him home rather than put him through the whole thing and embarass myself in public. It's a bunch of work, (bathing, braiding, packing, trailering, stressing,)to go through for naught, as well. If it's that bad, get your refund, and use it to buy the beer when you go to support your buddies anyway.

It's a shame, I know. I've been there with a horse that went through an intermittent on/off stage one year. Terribly frustrating and expensive. We just canned it for the season in the end.

[dilligaff2]

something like 15 micrometers per millilitre is legal. No idea what that equates to! I've been reading the rule books lately... (though Jules is off bute now).


That is in the General Regulations and only the Bronze level horses are allowed by prescription.

Silver and Gold Dressage rules do not allow ANY.

[Jealoushe]

Showing a known lame horse = stoopid...annoying

why why why?????:confused:

an off step here and there? That is NOT sound.

Let me know when you have a sore knee or back but only every few steps. We can go work out together and maybe you will understand how your horse feels.

[2ndyrgal]

And put him in the stall, you will forfeit your entry fee regardless of a vet cert. If he's lame enough to need a "scratch" excuse, then leave him home and go groom for somebody, fetch waters and cheer the others on. You do not take an iffy horse to a show, a big show, a little show, or the dammed Olympics. It's like making your boyfriend with the broken leg from a car wreck take you to the prom, just cause you bought a party dress, with out regarding his feelings. If he's not sound, and you know he's not sound, then be a good example and leave him home.
I'm the sort of person that walks over to you in the warm up arena and says in a loud voice "you DO know your horse is OFF don't you???" Because if you don't, you'll dismount and thank me, and if you do, perhaps you'll get off and go home where you belong.
This isn't about whether or not I think the FEI drug rules are fair or not for an older horse that might be more confortable in his job with an aspirin, this is about a horse that is off enough you are going to risk going and getting DQ'd just so you can go play in the sandbox.
How very selfish. Because there isn't one good reason why you should go show this horse.

[normandy_shores]

Holy dramatics and high horses batman!


You're all welcome to your opinions, but I asked for WHAT TO DO *IF* that's the scenario that plays out.

I don't go to shows and drill drill drill. I do my 6 minute test, and that's it. Warmup? Rarely for more than 5 minutes. I suppose hacking around at training level on an older horse who gets the "breakfast of champions" (a bute 3x a week, per my vet) is going to land me in hell a lot quicker than people doing injections and legend and adequan and extensive therapies to keep their more advanced horses going? I guess "showing" and "riding" and "dressage" have different meanings to different people. I don't show to campaign, to earn scores, etc, I show to go ride

If the horse is *lame* no doubt I'll scratch. We're amateurs in every sense of the word -- he's 19 and content to pack his fat short hunchbacked rider around a few days a week. I'm not completely retarded or heartless, just that as my horse ages I've yet to be in this potential situation.

Thanks anyhow

[enjoytheride]

You are missing the point. Even if you don't show to "show" you shouldn't just "ride" a lame horse that a judge will notice and ring you for. If he's going sound at home then take him to the show, if he comes up lame in the warmup don't go anywhere near the dressage arena. Get off him and take him home.

Horses on legend and injections do not limp their way through dressage tests because those injections allow them to be pain free. Horses will continue on through lamness and pain because they are obedient, not because they love you. If your horse is in pain fumbling through a dresage test is abusive. Working on getting him sound at HOME following a vet's careful program is not. Perhaps you should consider injections to make him more comfortable doing his job.

If you do decide to show and your horse comes up lame and you get rung then I would attempt to block out the people pointing at you as the rider who rode the poor lame horse because she wanted to go to a horse show. A low key show isn't an excuse to ride an unsound horse.

[2ndyrgal]

that's what you should have said in your original post. What you said was, "I want to go show, but I'm at risk for getting the bell because my horse is lame". You already have a vet slip saying he's too lame to show so you know he's off. I don't care if he's 19 or 9, I don't care what he eats for breakfast. Your post said essentially, when I get the bell, do I dismount or just ride out??? So don't act like we pissed in your cornflakes. If you "only show to ride" well hell, you can do that at home. Sometimes, horses we love that teach us a lot, that can be medicated enough to be useful at home, won't be sound enough so that we can show, even though the horse may be willing in his work. He probably is, and he's probably fine with "light work" and at home, where the second he takes a iffy step, you can put him away. Look at the flak Debbie McDonald got for Brentina's last performance, and you can bet your paycheck that horse had the best of everything. She should have stayed home, and hindsight being 20/20, probably would. And as good as Debbie is, people talked nasty about it. I can only imagine what someone would say about a mere mortal ammie with a lame horse, at a show. I've seen lame racehorses finish as fast as they could go on three legs (hell, I watched Amy Tryon at Rolex) so I have no doubt that some horses can play through the pain. But if we know in our hearts or question that we shouldn't do something, then you have your answer there.

[normandy_shores]

You already have a vet slip saying he's too lame to show so you know he's off.



My vet slip does NOT say he's too lame to show -- it's an indiscriminate slip just says he's been under vet care. You're making assumptions. The vet was optimistic about showing.

[analise]

It's like making your boyfriend with the broken leg from a car wreck take you to the prom, just cause you bought a party dress, with out regarding his feelings.

OT, but this made me giggle a bit. When I was in high school, the guy I was going to prom with hurt his ankle right before prom and still insisted on going, crutches and all. Of course, that was not me insisting he take me, but him insisting we still go, but you did make me think of that. :)

In regards to the OP, I don't have a lot (er, any) experience with dressage shows but I guess I'd say if your horse seems lame, he shouldn't end up in the ring at all, but you know that and I'm sure you won't take him in there if he seems off. As far as what happens if you got rung...I guess I, unless told to do something otherwise, would ride to the gate and dismount there.

[esdressage]

Sheesh, I don't know what to tell you about the bell, but this post is getting out of hand. She's riding a 19-year-old horse who probably is much happier being groomed, ridden and taken out than he would be in his stall.

Now, before I throw my entire support to the OP, I'd love to know what the issues are that the horse is having. I didn't see what your horse's problem is. Sorry if I missed it, but if your vet is giving you the green light to go than I'm highly doubting it's horse abuse. If it's just some arthritis he'll likely warm up out of it, so a longer, slower warmup would actually help him more than the short one you mention.

My mare's 15 and going strong. I hope people don't flame me and tell me to stay home if she gets a little arthritis in a few years but is otherwise sound and eager to go strut her stuff!

[kkj]

Confused on this one. What is wrong with the horse? Is he just arthritic? Have you had him injected? Is he on Adequan and Legend? Oral supplements? If he is arthritic and you haven't done all of these things, please take the $$$ you have for showing and get the horse as comfortable as he can be. If you have already done all this stuff and he is still off enough that you worry he will get whistled out, perhaps you should retire him.

From my experience a horse has to be pretty bad to get whislted out by most judges. Most judges let horses with what you call "uneveness" complete the test and just ding them on the gaits or whatever. A lot of horses I do not consider sound compete for years.

Also what someone considers lame someone else does not. It is all a matter of degree and the quality of the eyes viewing the issue.

Personally I would not compete a horse that I deemed was irregular, uneven, off, lame or whatever, not just because I don't ride a horse like that let alone show one, but because it is a pretty bad reflection on the rider of either ignorance or indifference or both.

[Donkey]

In any case, as it sounds like the OP is, you should only be listening to and acting on the advice of your vet, instructor, horse and yourself. All other opinions are nothing but noise.

Anytime the bell is rung (making sure it's your bell, not the ring next door) stop and wait for the judge to tell you why they rung the bell. If the judge says "OMG! your horse is three legged lame!!" get off your horse before leaving the ring otherwise ride out at a walk and do not ride any more tests that day or that weekend if nothing changes.

A story on a related note - A friend of mine was once riding a test and her horse kicked himself behind and took several very lame steps but then righted himself. She was waiting for the bell but kept going when it didn't happen. The judged mentioned it on her way out of the ring and mentioned it on the test comments but the test was not stopped because the lame steps were not repeated.

[Dressage Art]

Judge will not consider your vet's opinion. It's up to judge to form her/his own opinion about lameness and judge's decision is final and can not be overturned or questioned.

some horses do have floating lameness and do tend to come up lame before or after the show (for example from over schooling) In that case, warm him up for about 20 minutes to get his juices flowing on both sides and ask your trainer how he looks. If your horse doesn't look lame, proceed to the test arena. If your horse looks lame, scratch and not go to the test arena.

Give your horse some legal dose of Bute: no more than 2 grams per 24 hours starting 5 days before the show (see more details here: http://www.usef.org/contentpage2.aspx?id=dm and http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/2007/2007DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf )

That said, if your horse doesn't positively respond to Bute, that shows a more serious lameness than a mild floating lameness that some older horses have and you should consider retiring him from show circuit - it can be quite painful for him to show and he doesn't deserve to work in pain.

If as you say you warm him up only for 5 minutes and then go to the show ring, you are actually doing him a disservice by taking a horse with "cold muscles" and asking him to do gymnastic exercisers. Give him a favor and walk him for 15 minutes and trot on both sides and canter on both sides for 5 minutes to warm his muscles up.

And the last thing, legend and adequan can make horses suppler, but it has absolutely nothing to do with lameness and will not help with lameness. It only helps with stiffness. It's legal as well. If I had enough $ my mare would be on both of them monthly.

[dotneko]

No DA, they are only eliminated for that test according
to DR 124. The exceptions that require elimination from
the entire competition are : misrepresentation of
entry, tying tongue down, and cruelty.
(That is, unless they have amended the rule book again
recently)
That being said, it would take a lot of nerve to present
the horse in front of the same judge that excused you.

I think the bute rule is 2 gm 24 hours before, but only 1
gram 12 hours prior - I also have not looked at that rule
in a long time.

Dot

[2ndyrgal]

you are the one that mentioned you had a vet slip in case you had to scratch, so it's either a scratch excuse or not, you can't have it both ways. You don't go hand the judge or the organizer or the office secretary a vet slip that says "dobbin is off, so if the judge dissmisses us, it's for lameness, and I want a refund, but if she/he doesn't then that's ok". Do I think you are abusing your horse? No, I've got a 27 year old TB that was a former show hunter. Can I ride him, yes. Would he still jump around because he has the biggest heart on the planet, yes again. Does he get pissed as hell when the trailer leaves for the show without him, oh hell yes. Would I even dream of taking his stiff hocks and shoulders into a competitive arena, with questionable footing and who knows what stall flooring? No. Will it hurt your horse in the long run, an old champainer, been there done that with nothing to prove? Nope. Do you care about your reputation and the example you set for others who might not know any better? I can't answer that question, though you've gone a way toward answering it for many of us by your posts. Just because you can do something that at the end of the day, may not bring any more harm, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The fact that you had to ask tells you, or should tell you that.
It's not for points, it's not for ribbons. No one else's team score will be affected if you don't compete.
Just your ego. Sorry if that stings, but if you can give me one good reason, that benefits your horse (who at 19 probably isn't showing for the experience) I'm certainly willing to listen.

[enjoytheride]

There is a difference between an older horse who needs a special warmup to work out of his stiffness and a horse that is head bobbing lame and stays that way.

My horse retired at 19. He seemed to enjoy showing but he developed a lamness he did not work out of. He'd go to a show today and truck around. My scores would suffer but he'd do it. It isn't about the score, or having fun, or just riding, or a low key show, it's about what's best for my horse. The fact that he "isn't happy at home" or that he would truck around doesn't matter. He's a horse and he's a mostly obedient animal. I'm the human, I'm the one that feeds him, takes care of him, loves him, and doesn't ask him to do things he isn't capable of but would do anyway.

[2ndyrgal]

and that was my point exactly.
Because it's supposed to be about the horse.

[egontoast]

:confused: I still don't get it.

If the horse is off in the warm up, you'd scratch. Right? Before you go in. You don't wait to see what the judge thinks. It's not going to change that much between the warmup anfd the test.

A slip from your vet is supposed to change all this how?

[kkj]

Adequan and Legend can help with lameness if that lameness is caused by Arthritis and not something else. They can make a horse that is in my opinion off behind from hock issues appear much better and be much more comfortable if they are used in the right dose and frequency. Perhaps not as significant as hock injections but they can help alot. This is especially true if you actually start treating your horse when he starts to become stiff and do not ignore it for a long time like most people do. And also if you spring for the whole treatment and don't do it sporatically. I see a ton of people with old arthritic horses who don't want to shell out the cash or say they can't afford it but they can find the money for a bunch of shows or training. It's all about priorities. I would be mighty embarrassed to take an arthritic horse to a show when I hadn't at least done what I could to make him more comfortable and sound and competitive actually before showing up.

[dilligaff2]

Judge will not consider your vet's opinion. It's up to judge to form her/his own opinion about lameness and judge's decision is final and can not be overturned or questioned.

some horses do have floating lameness and do tend to come up lame before or after the show (for example from over schooling) In that case, warm him up for about 20 minutes to get his juices flowing on both sides and ask your trainer how he looks. If your horse doesn't look lame, proceed to the test arena. If your horse looks lame, scratch and not go to the test arena.

Give your horse some legal dose of Bute: no more than 2 grams per 24 hours starting 5 days before the show (see more details here: http://www.usef.org/contentpage2.aspx?id=dm and http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/2007/2007DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf )




DA--Horse is in Canada. USDF rules do not apply. If this is a multi-day Show, it is most likely at the Gold or Silver Level where no amount is allowed.

For me Lame horse = stay home (as it is for us this weekend :( ).

[SisterToSoreFoot]

The problem is the definition of "lame" is so nebulous.

Our OP could actually have a slightly stiff older horse who is sound as a bell after a long, slow warmup and she is just a little paranoid/overthinking this.

OR, this horse could be straight-up lame and our OP could be looking for some way--any way--to patch the horse together so she can shine up her show boots and go with her friends.

We really don't know what the deal is without seeing the horse, the vet reports, trainer's opinion, etc. Lame is not a universal description.

[Dressage Art]

Our OP could actually have a slightly stiff older horse who is sound as a bell after a long, slow warmup and she is just a little paranoid/overthinking this.Lets hope so and in this case the often enough doses of Adequan can actually make a difference, but it can cost about $100 per month for 2 monthly doses. My vet thinks that 1 monthly dose will make a difference only in a small % of horses, most need Adequan more often as outlined on the box itself or you can try a loading dose right before the show. Adequan benefits lasts only for several days anyway. Manufacturer doesn't even recommend doing Adequan in "monthly" doses, but much more often.

Legend is less helpful than Adequan - per my vet.

Natural MSM will make a difference in the older horse as well.

[SPLAT]

I understand this because I too ride older stiff horses. Sometimes they warm a little slowly and look lame, sometimes they warm up out of it, every once in a while they don't. They get a day off or a I call the vet, or....

I maintain them and I keep them fit. I give them bute after a hard workout. They are old and they are happy. I am old and I take asprin after a hard workout. Sometimes I don't want to run the next day, but I do and I warm up and feel better afterward.

To the op - Take your horse, ride your horse, if you get rung out ask the judge what you should do. I find them helpful, friendly and for the most part, they want your experience to be a good one.

[esdressage]

I understand this because I too ride older stiff horses. Sometimes they warm a little slowly and look lame, sometimes they warm up out of it, every once in a while they don't. They get a day off or a I call the vet, or....

I maintain them and I keep them fit. I give them bute after a hard workout. They are old and they are happy. I am old and I take asprin after a hard workout. Sometimes I don't want to run the next day, but I do and I warm up and feel better afterward.

This is where I was going with my comment as well. Well said.

[Ibex]

Jules is an old guy, and it sounds like just an old-guy intermittent thing. I also suspect the OP is being understandably paranoid... having ridden an older, stiffer horse I totally understand (personally I now see lameness EVERYWHERE)! Her game plan has always been to warm up, and if she feels something isn't right, to scratch. The original question was etiquette in case she doesn't catch it in time and the judge rings her out.

OP - if you're still reading this thread, I'm stopping by the show this weekend to put up some posters - I'll try and say high on my way through!

Good luck!

[mbm]

erm... wasn't the original question ; "what do i do if i get rung out"?

it sounds to me like the OP has no intention of showing a lame horse - but as she has an older guy who can "have a bad step now and then" she wants to be prepared if he happens to have a bad step in the show ring and gets run out.

i believe the question was one of protocol: ie what is the correct protocol for leaving the ring if you have been rung out? do you salute the judge? dismount and leave? what?

:confused:

[Dressage Art]

i believe the question was one of protocol: ie what is the correct protocol for leaving the ring if you have been rung out? do you salute the judge? dismount and leave? what?

:confused:You reassess your horse's well being first and truly look deep in your heart and honestly answer the question why you showed a lame horse? Why you didn't stop in the middle of the tests and ask yourself as soon as you felt lame steps? How did you fail to see/feel that you are riding a lame horse in pain? How will you prevent yourself putting your horse in pain in the future? That's really the important questions, how NOT to ride your lame horse in pain. Not how you will look at the show affront of the judge or others...

[mbm]

oh.... you mean like leslie morse in the world cup? ;)

[slc2]

You saying that makes it right?

She didn't do her career any good that day.

"Clearly should have felt it"

and has, for years.

[mbm]

:no::no:

i nowhere said riding a known lame horse is okay.

i was trying to point out that the OP was asking what to do if she gets rung out.

it doesnt sound to me like she is going to knowingly ride a lame horse. but if her horse has a bad step and she gets rung out - she wanted to know what to do - protocol wise.

i guess i am not getting why this is so hard to understand about that?

my comment re: LM was just to point out that shit happens! sometimes horses go lame at the wrong moment!

[enjoytheride]

If you think that your horse is going to be lame enough to get rung out why would you even let your horse suffer by taking him in the first place?

If you have to ask your horse is too lame to show.

That's a lot different then taking a sound horse to a show and having him turn up lame. It would be nice to know if it ever suddenly happened to you, but as a "in case" situation and not you think your horse might get rung out.

If that suddenly happened to me I would stop and leave the ring, I might even dismount. I wouldn't wait for the bell. Then I would take my horse home and call the vet. But I wouldn't take a horse to a show if I thought I'd get the bell.

[Dressage Art]

oh.... you mean like leslie morse in the world cup? ;)Oh yes, that deeply concerned me and I do worry that now some riders might think that it's "OK" to get a bell for lameness = if that happens even with the very seasoned Olympic riders, right? They'll just brush it off and move on!

I remember the times when even a thought of getting a bell for lameness was a horrific, shameful thought and riders would do anything NOT to get it... now... we get posts what to do if OP gets a bell for lameness.... I'm sorry, but I think that is a sad, sad world our horses live in, they work so hard for us, they deserve better than being ridden at shows in pain from lameness.

[mbm]

yeah, i agree.... what concerned me the most was that he was clearly off for long enough that she should of felt it - and stopped the ride herself.

it is the first time i have seen a BNR get rung out and i was so thankful that they did that. 3 cheers to the judge from (mexico? not sure) - i know she was a stand in judge- i wonder if the guy that didn't show up would of rung her out ?

[mbm]

but DA - it is a good question! how many of us know what to do if we ever (god forbid) get rung out for lameness? hopefully none of us. but it is conceivable that a horse could step wrong in a test and come up lame.

or using the OPs situation - her older horse could be fine during the warm up and then during the test he may have a bad step or two - i dont know why it is so horrible to want to know the right protocol for this situation?

[Dressage Art]

If you do get rang out for any reason, ride up to the judge and ask her/him the reason for the elimination. Judge will try to discreetly tell you the reason, answer your questions, and then you are free to leave the arena.

The right protocol is your heart = what do you do when you realize that your horse is in pain from lameness? Dismount to ease the pain? Leave on the walk?

Yes, any horse can pick up a stone in his shoe and become "lame" in the show ring. Still, I hope it'll not happen to any of us.

[kkj]

I understand this because I too ride older stiff horses. Sometimes they warm a little slowly and look lame, sometimes they warm up out of it, every once in a while they don't. They get a day off or a I call the vet, or....

I maintain them and I keep them fit. I give them bute after a hard workout. They are old and they are happy. I am old and I take asprin after a hard workout. Sometimes I don't want to run the next day, but I do and I warm up and feel better afterward.

To the op - Take your horse, ride your horse, if you get rung out ask the judge what you should do. I find them helpful, friendly and for the most part, they want your experience to be a good one.

I think this is exactly the kind of thing I am not OK with. I suppose it is much better that your older horses have a home are taken care of and not sent down the road, but why would you subject an older horse that is stiff and sometimes does not work out of it to "hard workout"s? Why would you ride them so hard they need bute afterwards? That to me is cruel. If you want to take Celebrex everyday to get out of bed and play golf or need asprin to run, go for it. You take that risk for yourself and live your life. But bute is pretty caustic stuff and not something that I think is OK to keep an older horse rideable. Sure for an acute injury and for a short duration but not over and over again so you can squeeze more riding out of an old horse. Bute is a factor in gastro-intestinal ulcers, kidney damage, formation of blood clots, even liver damage and some studies have shown that long term it has a detrimental effect on joints. It is just masking the pain that the horse can't tell you about but is showing you by not working out of his "stiffness".

Why is it that people don't consider arthritic stiffness lameness? The horse is in pain and it results in the horse moving in a way that is not sound. It is a matter of semantics in my opinion. The problem is that it is so well accepted by vets, trainers, the judges who in my opinion are very reluctant to whistle out the arthritic hitchy horse, etc.

I am not saying that an older arthritic horse should never be ridden but I don't think it should be ridden to the point that it needs bute after the ride. Likewise I think if you need to ride an older arthritic horse for whatever reason fine, but find the $$$ to afford the joint injections, supplements, Adequan in the correct dose etc. When those things don't work anymore, suck it up and retire the poor thing. Bute may be a cheaper remedy but it is not the right one!

Another huge problem I see is that the average person who is riding these older not sound horses is that they really don't have a good eye for lameness or a good feel for it (especially when it is in the hind) The trainer (if they have a good eye) usually turns a cheek and collects the lesson money. The vet is reluctant to make a firm recommendation and the judge lets a lot of not sound horses slide especially if the horse is just sort of gimpy and stiff on both hind legs or something and not a 3 out of 5 on one front limb. The horse scores badly on its gaits but there is no mention of lameness.

[nhwr]

Hey what is the problem? The US team did the same thing with Brentina at last summers Olympics, right?
This is a major objection I had with sending Brentina to Hong Kong. It makes the average guy think it is OK as long as the horse is having a "good day".

Seriously, when you compete it is your job to present a horse that is prepared and competent for the work. A horse that is "off and on" does not meet that criteria. So if you take your horse and are excused, you should hang your head in shame as you exit the arena, IMO

PS Another reason to skip it is - it sounds like you might have a mild issue with a high suspensory (better on harder ground and a poor response to anti-inflammatories are classic signs). If that is the case, working the horse is NOT a good idea as it could result in a more serious problem.

Go support your pals but leave the horse home :yes:

[egontoast]

Looking at the subject line of this thread and the 'flame suit on' comment. it's obvious the OP knows what she is all about. She knows her horse is not really sound and she's clearly expecting to get rung out

but WAHHHH I wanna go to the show.

sux.

If the OP just wanted to ask- what do you do if you are wrung out for unsoundness she could have asked that. By providing the extra information she was asking for input I think on the rest of it.


As others have pointed out, there are other reasons why the bell might be rung so why would you assume lameness and wonder if you should jump off unless you already know your horse is lame. Hmmm?

[Ambrey]

People I know with arthritic pain are happier and healthier, long term, if they remain active... including sometimes pushing through the pain.

I think the basic moral dilemma here is whether a horse enjoys his job or not. If you go in with the assumption that the horse thinks this is all fun stuff, it seems perfectly reasonable to allow him to push himself a bit and then give him some bute (I do that to myself all the time). Any rider over 50 does the same thing sometimes, I bet ;)

If you go in with the basic assumption that the horse does not enjoy the work, so that you're piling the pain on top of an already unpleasant activity, like having to go to the dentist when you have a migraine, then yeah it could seem cruel.

[woodcat]

It seems the only way to know what's right is to ask the horse.
I'm stiff but I still do the stuff I enjoy.

[Dressage Art]

Hey what is the problem? The US team did the same thing with Brentina at last summers Olympics, right?
This is a major objection I had with sending Brentina to Hong Kong. It makes the average guy think it is OK as long as the horse is having a "good day".Yes, and look how that turned out! They got 60%+ at O level dressage! Who knows, may be NQR Brentina was the reason that LM felt it is OK to continue to ride the test on NQR Kingston? Both cases are very, very saddening to me and they are our very highest levels. I just hope that it is a coincident that US had those cases one after another... I do not want to see a third one...

PS: When horse is arthritic, it's quite equally distributed in his body and he is not lame. He can get a 6 or even a 5 for his gaits, but that doesn't mean that he is uneven, unlevel, limping dancer. Lame horse can get an 8 for the gaits one day and be rang off for lameness the next day. Arthritic pain can vary as well. As I was taught by my vets and trainers horses start to get arthritic pain from 8 years old!!! But the arthritic pain of an 8 year old horse can be quite different from the arthritic pain of 20 year old horse. It should be personal management of each horse, not a sweeping generalization.

[nhwr]

The problem is the horse can't talk, though.
Hey I had a full knee reconstruction and I can't take NSAIDs. I am allergic to all of them. So I am like the walking example of no foreign substances (well, no NSAIDs, anyway ... chardonnay is another story). I ride, run, swim, do yoga and pilates several times a week. And most of the time, I am pain-free and not lame at all, lol. The difference is; I make the decision for myself when enough is enough, quit and find an ice pack. And on the rare occasions that I limp, I do so because it hurts :(

Horses don't get to make that decision for themselves. They depend on us to make the right call. The very fact that the OP is asking "what if I get the bell?" is an admission that she isn't willing to make the call herself, she is leaving it to the judge. Sorry, I think that is a breach of the trust our horses place in us.

I am not saying don't work the horse ever. If he is arthritic, appropriate work is beneficial. But showing isn't appropriate, IMO :no:

[Vesper Sparrow]

I retired my 25 year old from showing a couple of weeks ago. She wasn't at all lame (we got 6's on gaits in our last test) but, all of a sudden, I felt like she was having a harder time with what I was asking, particularly when the footing was not as soft as it could be. I hard the chiro out to look at her and he thought she had injured her back. In addition, at her last show, uncharacteristically, she wasn't interested in eating her hay so I scratched her from her second test. I think showing takes a lot out of the old folks. I talked with my coach and she agreed that the mare looked tired so I decided to retire her from competition for good.

Instead, I am hacking her and doing some limited ringwork and we have been having fun out on the trails. Of course, today, I rode her in the ring and she had lots and lots of gas and was back to her old self. Didn't want to stop cantering, wanted to go forward, forward, forward and I had no problem getting her on the bit. But I'm sticking with my decision.

[Trevelyan96]

This is so ironic. OP is an amatuer saying the horsie is under vet care, is off and on, (who isn't at that age) so she's planning to take him, see how he does, and wants to know the proper etiquette IF he suddenly takes that off step and she gets rung out, and people are freaking, and calling it abuse.

Yet a few months ago some of the same people were arguing that it was ok for a judge to overlook a head bobbing dead lame horse just because it was only a 'schooling' show. And I think I read a lot of arguements about 'rein lameness, old schoolmasters who do better if they're kept working, how valuable they are, etc., etc., etc.

Sheesh, people. Which way do you want it. Apparently people just like to beat up on OPs, regardless of which side of the fence they're on.

To the OP... if your horse seems fine day of show, take him, have fun. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here that OP knows her horse well enough and cares enough about him to not push him through a test if he seems to be hurting.

[Dressage Art]

Yet a few months ago some of the same people were arguing that it was ok for a judge to overlook a head bobbing dead lame horse just because it was only a 'schooling' show. And I think I read a lot of arguements about 'rein lameness, old schoolmasters who do better if they're kept working, how valuable they are, etc., etc., etc.I remember that thread and it was also sad to read it, but I wasn't the one who was supporting showing a lame horse at a schooling show either: I don’t like to watch lame dancers (aka dressage horses)

[slc2]

I have definitely seen people take this business of keeping 'the older arthritic horse active', way, way too far.

It's a nice idea in principle, but I don't think it goes very far when 'keeping the horse active' means the extremely self-benefitting issue of showing.

Unlike most of those saying the older horse who shows unlevel strides 'now and again' due to arthritic changes can go to shows, I say no, even though I have one of those horses. If the horse shows signs of being unlevel intermittently, he should not be shown in a dressage show - recognized, schooling or otherwise.

And no. None of the elite horses who came up lame were 'oh golly he stepped on a stone today' or 'oh golly this never happened before' or 'stuff happens'. Don't kid yourself about that...or others.

Excuses, justification and rationalizations for 'what I want to do because it benefits me'. Not in the interest of the horse.

Appropriate consistent exercise(no, the horse doesn't 'get sore one day', because he does the same exercise all the time, and if he gets sore from getting cast or running in the pasture, he is exercised lightly and treated until he is not sore), consistent medication (giving them 'a bute pill after they are sore' makes absolutely no sense - their work level should not vary, bute takes days to take do anything and is a maintenance medication that slows the arthritic process, not an 'aspirin' one takes once), and no showing.

If the horse is lame enough to be rung out on any given day, he does not belong at a horse show - any horse show...and a decent horseman would be too ashamed of even the thought of it, to even ask the question the OP asks. What really is the matter with people today that anyone would even ask such a question, 'My horse is lame now and again, what do I do if the judge notices?' ?

[kkj]

PS: When horse is arthritic, it's quite equally distributed in his body and he is not lame. He can get a 6 or even a 5 for his gaits, but that doesn't mean that he is uneven, unlevel, limping dancer. Lame horse can get an 8 for the gaits one day and be rang off for lameness the next day. Arthritic pain can vary as well. As I was taught by my vets and trainers horses start to get arthritic pain from 8 years old!!! But the arthritic pain of an 8 year old horse can be quite different from the arthritic pain of 20 year old horse. It should be personal management of each horse, not a sweeping generalization.

I don't agree with this. A horse can be arthritic in say just one hock and be very lame on that. Someone can think a horse just moves like crap behind but if you do a workup and block each leg, xrays etc it turns out both of the hind legs are very sore and just look even because they hurt the same. A horse may hurt all over from arthritic issues or he may just have arthritis in one area and be sore in more than that from compensating ie a horse with arthritic hocks which becomes quite back sore. And a horse can get arthritic long before 8 years old. This is one of the reasons I put my horses on Adequan when I start them. And I get Adequan for $38 and change a dose so it is not $100 for two doses a month. Just have to shop around.

I agree that exercise is good for arthritic horses and people etc but if you have to bute them after you ride them, that is tooo much exercise. Bute is so much more damaging than asprin.

[normandy_shores]

Well, thanks to everyone who is assuming I'm showing a lame horse. Or that I'd ride a lame horse into the ring and hope not to get rung, or do ill by him with any intent.

*sheesh*

Without any sarcasm, thank you to the people who gave me the benefit of the doubt and answered my ACTUAL QUESTION.

FYI, horsey was fine. He's barefoot and has one flat foot (oh go ahead, roast me for not shoeing him too. He was previously shod and had gel pads and all kinds of corrective shoeing but he stopped growing hoof, barefoot has been his healthiest option) and so when I saw the footing I was pretty concerned. The footing was really hard sand -- a lot of the horses looked tippy toey. Some rings were better than others - one ring was even a bit rocky (a concern of mine -- maybe he'd be ok in one and not the other?). While the show and organization was awesome (the people couldn't have been any nicer, and it was well organized), I don't think I'll be headed to that facility again any time soon.

Anyways, did great Friday and Saturday, though he was a firebreathing TB so our tests were pretty hairy (ok, VERY hairy). A good time was had by all. Our verbal recount of our tests had the steward laughing :) New movement: Bust out a circle somewhere over there, bomb down the long side a couple of metres off the rail, skip the corners entirely, and hope we screech to a halt in time. Yea, it was rough!

I scratched Sunday since our rides were first thing, and he'd been stalled all night and it was cold/windy overnight (he gets backsore when it's cold, have at me again, it's JUNE and didn't have a sheet... but he's also anhydrotic so living in the heat isn't ideal either). Of course, by the time we got home in the afternoon, he was strutting his stuff.

The vet and chiro are coming out this week, as is his farrier. I HAVE retired the horse previously (when his feet stopped growing, but voila! pulled the shoes and he was a happy camper) and won't hesitate to do so again when the time comes. Until then, I don't take any of this for granted.

Next time I need medical or ethical advice regarding my horse or horsemanship, I'll be sure to come here. People on the intarwebz read my short backstory and question, and surely they can diagnose my horse as lame and me as an abuser. The vet certificate was written without any details on the cert as an "in case", just saying the owner could use it at their discretion (though I was aware I couldn't use it once at the show). Vet was optimistic all along (moreso than me, clearly). I'm a paranoid horse owner and was concerned about the "what ifs" -- he's my baby and I've spent years making him as comfortable as possible (acupuncture/electrostim, massage, chiro, corrective shoeing, etc).


Thought I'd pipe in, since I'm clearly on trial here.

[Jealoushe]

Thought I'd pipe in, since I'm clearly on trial here.

I don't understand what you expected, you asked for CoTH's opinion and you got it.

You don't have to listen.

[SPLAT]

Good for you! I am glad you went - glad you had a good experience and hears to many more! - Here's to the old ones and all they teach us!

[Ibex]

I don't understand what you expected, you asked for CoTH's opinion and you got it.

You don't have to listen.

Actually, she didn't. She asked what to do if she got rung out.

NS - glad you had a great time on the weekend - it's what it's all about! You're right about the footing - it's always a bit hard and best to play it by ear. Jules looked like he was thoroughly enjoying being there when I saw him on Saturday!

[esdressage]

Glad you had a good time!!!

[Dressage Art]

And a horse can get arthritic long before 8 years old. This is one of the reasons I put my horses on Adequan when I start them.
Really? I assume that you start your horses at about 4 years old? And that's the age that you start giving them Adequan? What do you do: "monthly shots" or "loading doses" several times per year?

The reason why I'm asking, several vets from equine hospital told me that they would always recommend Adequan since it's proven to make a difference, but not in monthly shots. It's proven to make a difference in so called "loading doses" and it's actually stays in the horse's system only for 96 hours peaking at 42 hours. It wears out in 96 hours, not in 30 days! So basically, you either have to do Adequan every 4 days ... and this is extremely expensive... or a loading doses of 4 shots every 4 days before the show for it to work. If it's given only 1 per month = I was told by several good vets that it's throwing $ away.

There is no proof that 1 time per month works and Adequan doesn't give such recommendation either.

I do know many, many, many people who do give monthly Adequan shots, but it seems that it’s quite pointless?

PS: I use to give monthly Legend/Adequan previously, but not anymore. Honestly, I didn’t see any difference when I started to give Legend/Adequan or when I stopped.

[ToN Farm]

DA, I agree with you about the Adequan and the monthly shots being worthless. I have to wonder exactly what benefit the 28 day 7 vial loading dose has. You could do the loading dose every month for $360 or less. It depends on what price you get it for. While that sounds like a lot of money, it's a drop in the bucket compared to what some people pay for monthly training, clinics, and/or board. I would do it IF I found it to work and IF I only had one horse.

Same goes for Legend. A lot of people give a shot monthly. Pointless, imo and in that of many vets.

I guess we choose to believe our sources or judge from our own personal use, but imo and that of my vet, Legend is my shot of choice before a competition. I have not seen any improvement on any horse with Adequan, although possibly it prevents problems.
I think maybe Legend isn't as popular becase many people don't know how to do IV shots.

[Dressage Art]

Actually, I hear a better feedback about Adequan than Legend. Also Legend is more expensive than Adequan. I use to pay $325.00 for 7 vials of Adequan including tax, shipping and neddles. That's $54 per shot. I think this is the cheepest that you can get it: (http://www.allivet.com/Adequan-Equine-p/10041-7.htm)

"Adequan Equine is recommended for traumatic joint dysfunction. The recommended dose is 500 mg intramuscularly every four days for 28 days. Studies have shown that two hours after the first Adequan® i.m. injection, beneficial levels are reached in the joint and therapeutic levels are present for up to 96 hours. To achieve maximum benefit of blocking cartilage destruction and stimulating joint repair processes, make sure your horse receives the entire seven doses recommended by your veterinarian"

Legent is $75.00 per shot http://www.allivet.com/Legend-p/10049.htm


Yes TON, I know people who do weekly Legends and 4 day Adequan during the Championships. When the difference between awards is less than 0.5% = might as well use everything that can help! (+ chiro, masseuse, acupuncture etc.) And it is still pennies compare to the price that they paid for their horses! But that’s a completely different play ground :lol:

It’s the same as my hubby took his car engine apart and shipped it to AZ to the special racing guy who cleans performance engines, he paid thousands of $ for that. He improved his racing score the whole 6%. For him it was HUGE!!!! Now his racing result card is proudly displayed in a frame on the top of our piano. But how many people really that dedicated to racing their cars as a hobby? Most of my horse buddies look at this paper and ask me why it's in the frame and what is that? then roll their ayers... I think Adequan and Legend is in the same category.

[AnotherRound]

*puts on flamesuit*

There's a chance I'll get the bell this weekend. I have adjusted my tests, show management knew I had a horse a bit off and that I have a vet's certificate should I need to scratch. We have been under a vet's care, and he says to continue working him (obviously not too hard).

I am scheduled to show, and going anyhow (flamesuit). We'll ride our tests (assuming he's having a "good" day) and do a short/easy warmup. If we get rung out, we're there to support our barnmates that are going and enjoy the camping trip and social aspect. (Note: horsey is doing well, but in the last week sometimes later in the ride starts to take the occassional uneven step -- no head bobbing or unwillingness).

So if/when I get the bell, dismount and walk out? In the case of a multiday show... do you give it a try the next day or just scratch the whole thing?

So, to get back to the original post, the OP wants to know if she rides a lame horse in the show and gets rung out, should she dismount or hobble out on the limping horse. I say hobble out on the limping horse, because that's the only reason she would get rung out. If the horse wasn't limping, she wouldn't have to worry about the judge seing the lameness. So, Miss Flamesuit plans on riding a lame horse, that's not the issue, the issue is, if the judge objects, should she dismount or hobble. Flamesuit donned, give me the social cues here.

So, OP, you put on your flamesuit. As you anticipated, nobody thought you were very bright, nobody thinks you were doing the right thing, you knew that might happen, you wore your asbestos, and now you're all rightous and indignant about the people who think you aren't a responsible horse owner? On COTH? Where close to 30,000 subscribers from all over the world will read your thread and you are insulted with the majority of opinions that you aren't very bright? You said you were riding a horse who was lame and might get rung out. You said you would ride him. A horse doesn't get rung out for lameness unless he is lame, so you intended to ride a lame horse. What do you want, cheers? Accolades? Congratulations that the judge didn't see any limping? Oh, you want us to breathe a great big sigh of relief along with you that the horse wasn't limping on that particular day?

Whew! Wow. Congratulations. You are real special.

[ec412]

Well, thanks to everyone who is assuming I'm showing a lame horse. Or that I'd ride a lame horse into the ring and hope not to get rung, or do ill by him with any intent.

*sheesh*

Without any sarcasm, thank you to the people who gave me the benefit of the doubt and answered my ACTUAL QUESTION.

FYI, horsey was fine. He's barefoot and has one flat foot (oh go ahead, roast me for not shoeing him too. He was previously shod and had gel pads and all kinds of corrective shoeing but he stopped growing hoof, barefoot has been his healthiest option) and so when I saw the footing I was pretty concerned. The footing was really hard sand -- a lot of the horses looked tippy toey. Some rings were better than others - one ring was even a bit rocky (a concern of mine -- maybe he'd be ok in one and not the other?). While the show and organization was awesome (the people couldn't have been any nicer, and it was well organized), I don't think I'll be headed to that facility again any time soon.

Anyways, did great Friday and Saturday, though he was a firebreathing TB so our tests were pretty hairy (ok, VERY hairy). A good time was had by all. Our verbal recount of our tests had the steward laughing :) New movement: Bust out a circle somewhere over there, bomb down the long side a couple of metres off the rail, skip the corners entirely, and hope we screech to a halt in time. Yea, it was rough!

I scratched Sunday since our rides were first thing, and he'd been stalled all night and it was cold/windy overnight (he gets backsore when it's cold, have at me again, it's JUNE and didn't have a sheet... but he's also anhydrotic so living in the heat isn't ideal either). Of course, by the time we got home in the afternoon, he was strutting his stuff.

The vet and chiro are coming out this week, as is his farrier. I HAVE retired the horse previously (when his feet stopped growing, but voila! pulled the shoes and he was a happy camper) and won't hesitate to do so again when the time comes. Until then, I don't take any of this for granted.

Next time I need medical or ethical advice regarding my horse or horsemanship, I'll be sure to come here. People on the intarwebz read my short backstory and question, and surely they can diagnose my horse as lame and me as an abuser. The vet certificate was written without any details on the cert as an "in case", just saying the owner could use it at their discretion (though I was aware I couldn't use it once at the show). Vet was optimistic all along (moreso than me, clearly). I'm a paranoid horse owner and was concerned about the "what ifs" -- he's my baby and I've spent years making him as comfortable as possible (acupuncture/electrostim, massage, chiro, corrective shoeing, etc).


Thought I'd pipe in, since I'm clearly on trial here.

Not on Trial here.

Thanks for the update! Glad you had a good time, and from your post, sounds like your horse did as well! You also gave me some very good insight, and that is NEVER ask for advice on this forum...it sounds like you had good advice from the PROFESSIONALS (like your vet) on what was appropriate for your horse in his condition.

Some days I am pretty gimpy as well- once I start moving around, especially riding, I start to loosen up and feel pretty good!

[Fixerupper]

I did make a comment (negative) on this on page one - and thought - all said and done - that I should clarify my position...

I love school masters (sound or not), I have no problem with 'unsound' horses being ridden with whatever help they need...providing they are are not suffering (and I agree..subjective viewpoint).

I do not have an issue with showing questionably sound horses at schooling or 'unrecognized' shows for fun or experience - because there is no drug testing...use your bute, navicular meds or whatever... The competition level is within reason....have fun, that is what it's for.

However, when there is sooo much condemnation at the upper and highest levels of competition about any medication use, whatsoever, because the perception is that any rider would willingly jeopardize their horses well-being in order to compete. Well... how can we argue against that and condone it at the same time?

Yeah great that you 'got away with it'....too bad Brentina didn't????

[meupatdoes]

So, to get back to the original post, the OP wants to know if she rides a lame horse in the show and gets rung out, should she dismount or hobble out on the limping horse. I say hobble out on the limping horse, because that's the only reason she would get rung out. If the horse wasn't limping, she wouldn't have to worry about the judge seing the lameness. So, Miss Flamesuit plans on riding a lame horse, that's not the issue, the issue is, if the judge objects, should she dismount or hobble. Flamesuit donned, give me the social cues here.

So, OP, you put on your flamesuit. As you anticipated, nobody thought you were very bright, nobody thinks you were doing the right thing, you knew that might happen, you wore your asbestos, and now you're all rightous and indignant about the people who think you aren't a responsible horse owner? On COTH? Where close to 30,000 subscribers from all over the world will read your thread and you are insulted with the majority of opinions that you aren't very bright? You said you were riding a horse who was lame and might get rung out. You said you would ride him. A horse doesn't get rung out for lameness unless he is lame, so you intended to ride a lame horse. What do you want, cheers? Accolades? Congratulations that the judge didn't see any limping? Oh, you want us to breathe a great big sigh of relief along with you that the horse wasn't limping on that particular day?

Whew! Wow. Congratulations. You are real special.

Evidently you failed to read the part where she scratched.

[Jealoushe]

Evidently you failed to read the part where she scratched.

After she showed the day before...and the horse was bad. Maybe he was in pain?

[HenryisBlaisin']

Another perspective from personal experience. I have an old knee injury, and it is truly an on-again, off-again thing. When it hurts, I gimp around like I'm 80. When it doesn't, It's completely pain free. In my case, it's an OCD issue. I don't know what the issue is with the horse, but I can tell you it's possible to be lame one day and pain-free on another. Perhaps on the days where the horse goes well, he's not in pain. Maybe he's just in less pain, but there is the possibility that he's not lame because he's not hurting.

Older horses have good and bad days-with my oldie, I always looked at several cues-was he bouncy to go for a ride when I got on, ears pricked and energetic, or was he sour and pokey? On the sour pokey days, we would go on a gentle trail ride, and by the end he usually felt pretty good. If he didn't feel better after a few minutes I'd get off and lead him home. On the good days, we would work in the arena or go for a longer ride. He didn't have lameness issues, and I was very careful to go on my vet's advice, but it seemed that he was always happier after working as the stiffness worked out-as many people with arthitis will tell you! Bottom line, you have to be able to read your horse. If you can't, or if you ignore it, shame on you! But if you listen to your vet and your horse, you are likely to be doing your horse a service. My oldie loved to show, and was showing against, and routinely beating, much younger horses. He won his last pleasure championship at 25. On the other hand, he didn't like to be left standing in the pasture all day. So on the advice of vet and trainer, we found a routine that suited him.

I'm not saying the OP was right or wrong, because I don't have the benefit of seeing her work with her horse. I'm just saying that it's possible that the horse is happy and willing and not dead lame, as many have portrayed him to be.

[Vesper Sparrow]

Older horses have good and bad days-with my oldie, I always looked at several cues-was he bouncy to go for a ride when I got on, ears pricked and energetic, or was he sour and pokey? On the sour pokey days, we would go on a gentle trail ride, and by the end he usually felt pretty good. If he didn't feel better after a few minutes I'd get off and lead him home. On the good days, we would work in the arena or go for a longer ride. He didn't have lameness issues, and I was very careful to go on my vet's advice, but it seemed that he was always happier after working as the stiffness worked out-as many people with arthitis will tell you! Bottom line, you have to be able to read your horse. If you can't, or if you ignore it, shame on you! But if you listen to your vet and your horse, you are likely to be doing your horse a service. My oldie loved to show, and was showing against, and routinely beating, much younger horses.

This is very much my experience. My 25 year old is always eager to get out of her stall or turnout and get tacked up, so on a particular day, it's up to me to figure out how she's feeling and adjust the ride accordingly. I have to say that in the process I've learned a lot about warming up and other things that maybe I wouldn't have figured out from just riding horses in the prime of their lives. At her last show, for example, the warmup footing had rocks mixed in with the sand, which I knew would bother her. For her warmup, I walked her around for maybe 20 minutes, did a little trotting and then got up in two point and cantered just a little. People in the warmup were giving me funny looks. Well, we did very respectably in our test and placed ahead of many younger and fancier horses.

I have to say I am very glad I retired her. She is the overachiever type and I think the show atmosphere was just too much for her. We are forming a new, much more relaxed partnership on the trails.

[normandy_shores]

After she showed the day before...and the horse was bad. Maybe he was in pain?

Oh for chrissakes. He wasn't BAD, he was THOROUGHBRED. It was windy and cool and he was full of himself. It's not like he ran around trying to buck me off or was being disobedient, he was UP.

Our test was... "eventer-like".

Maybe I ought to post a video from Thursday when he was showing off on his own (he was acting like a TB then, too. Or was he just being "bad"?).

*eyeroll* you guys are extracting things that weren't said. For a group of people who think I ought to be so concerned for my reputation, you don't take much care in protecting your own.

[AnotherRound]

Oh for chrissakes. He wasn't BAD, he was THOROUGHBRED. It was windy and cool and he was full of himself. It's not like he ran around trying to buck me off or was being disobedient, he was UP.

Our test was... "eventer-like".

Maybe I ought to post a video from Thursday when he was showing off on his own (he was acting like a TB then, too. Or was he just being "bad"?).

*eyeroll* you guys are extracting things that weren't said. For a group of people who think I ought to be so concerned for my reputation, you don't take much care in protecting your own.

You just don't get it. Whether your horse was lame or not was not what you asked about. Its not whether the horse was lame or not. It was that you had every intention of riding in a SHOW what you fully expected would be a lame horse, and if you were rung out, should you limp out on board or dismount and walk out, but also, should you then keep going back for the rest of you classes?Can you not see that this kind of asshatted idea prompted even you to don a flame suit in aniticipation of the responses? Its not about riding a horse with arthritis. Its good for them to be ridden. Its about showing a horse which you believed would be lame for the class, and what would be the social protocol for being called out by the judge for SHOWING the horse, which you intended to do. Instead of saying "I've got to give this show a miss and use my vet letter and get my partial refund", you thought you'd try to get away with it on the off chance he was miraculously better by show day, but if he wasn't, how could you avoid embarrassment? And you obviously knew that the responses might not all be supportive, otherwise, why the repeated mention of donning a flamesuit? This is what else killed me: you're all worried about getting rung out for lameness (so the lameness must be more than a slight restriction of the gaits) But, "Hey, if I get rung out, should I give it a try the next day"? Sure, in front of the same judge, she might not remember you at all for riding a lame horse the day before. Go on ahead.

YOu asked for social cues. You got them. You sneer and deride those who were aghasted that you even asked. Social cues are obviously not your forte, either to figure out for yourself or take advise on from other, when you don't konw.

So now you want to unring that bell!! I didn't ride a lame horse! It isn't a lame horse! I can show you a movie of it not being lame!! Well, you're one lucky girl. He WAS miraculously better on show day!! Now you want to say "never mind" I wasn't going to show a lame horse after all? Too late. You already zipped up your flame suit and confessed that was your intention. Not a whole lot of support for your plans, and, the only social cues anyone had to give you were no, don't go into the ring with a lame horse to being with, to hell with the protocol about dismounting once you were rung out. And sure as hell don't try to go back before the judge again, if you are rung out.

You don't like that? Why did you ask? I don't care what happened at the show. I think you're a dimbulb for intending to show a lame horse and asking how best to save face while doing it.

[normandy_shores]

You just don't get it. Whether your horse was lame or not was not what you asked about. Its not whether the horse was lame or not. It was that you had every intention of riding in a SHOW what you fully expected would be a lame horse, and if you were rung out, should you limp out on board or dismount and walk out, but also, should you then keep going back for the rest of you classes?Can you not see that this kind of asshatted idea prompted even you to don a flame suit in aniticipation of the responses? Its not about riding a horse with arthritis. Its good for them to be ridden. Its about showing a horse which you believed would be lame for the class, and what would be the social protocol for being called out by the judge for SHOWING the horse, which you intended to do. Instead of saying "I've got to give this show a miss and use my vet letter and get my partial refund", you thought you'd try to get away with it on the off chance he was miraculously better by show day, but if he wasn't, how could you avoid embarrassment? And you obviously knew that the responses might not all be supportive, otherwise, why the repeated mention of donning a flamesuit? This is what else killed me: you're all worried about getting rung out for lameness (so the lameness must be more than a slight restriction of the gaits) But, "Hey, if I get rung out, should I give it a try the next day"? Sure, in front of the same judge, she might not remember you at all for riding a lame horse the day before. Go on ahead.

YOu asked for social cues. You got them. You sneer and deride those who were aghasted that you even asked. Social cues are obviously not your forte, either to figure out for yourself or take advise on from other, when you don't konw.

So now you want to unring that bell!! I didn't ride a lame horse! It isn't a lame horse! I can show you a movie of it not being lame!! Well, you're one lucky girl. He WAS miraculously better on show day!! Now you want to say "never mind" I wasn't going to show a lame horse after all? Too late. You already zipped up your flame suit and confessed that was your intention. Not a whole lot of support for your plans, and, the only social cues anyone had to give you were no, don't go into the ring with a lame horse to being with, to hell with the protocol about dismounting once you were rung out. And sure as hell don't try to go back before the judge again, if you are rung out.

You don't like that? Why did you ask? I don't care what happened at the show. I think you're a dimbulb for intending to show a lame horse and asking how best to save face while doing it.


Have you seen my horse?

Did you see me take my "lame horse" from the warmup into the ring?

Did you see him the day prior to the show, or prior to that?

You guys can flame me all you want, though I think you're misinformed and I obviously wasn't clear from the get-go. I will, however, take offense when I say we had thoroughbred-like test and somebody extracts that my horse "bad".


I never had any intention of taking A LAME HORSE into the competition ring and hope I wouldn't get rung out. It's a scenario I've never faced before, and because of the recent history and lack of knowledge of the show grounds/footing I was concerned about a situation I haven't faced.

[AnotherRound]

I am scheduled to show, and going anyhow (flamesuit). We'll ride our tests (assuming he's having a "good" day) and do a short/easy warmup. If we get rung out, we're there to support our barnmates that are going and enjoy the camping trip and social aspect. (Note: horsey is doing well, but in the last week sometimes later in the ride starts to take the occassional uneven step -- no head bobbing or unwillingness).

So if/when I get the bell, dismount and walk out? In the case of a multiday show... do you give it a try the next day or just scratch the whole thing?

You're right. No intention there. "I am scheduled to show and going anyhow. We'll ride our tests....if/WHEN I get the bell..."

Your words. Not mine. You can't take them back. You intended to show until the bell rung. Re-write it all you want, you said it not me. In fact, you had several days to rewrite it and didn't. I am unimpressed, and even less impressed that you can't own up to your intentions.

[MrWinston]

I just read this whole thread and found one thing sorely missing. A DIAGNOSIS! The OP described the horse as sometimes taking uneven steps behind. It's clear that an ASSumption that it is some low grade arthritic issue since the horse is older. I think that an ASSumption is a mistake and as someone mentioned, it could also be a suspensory or something else that needs rest and treatment. The horse may very well just be showing his age but I would need a real answer before deciding to keep on riding him, let alone showing him.

I'm not flaming, but the part about not having a show sheet for the horse (a horse that you know gets back sore) blew me away. It may be June but weather varies and it's important to be prepared for the sake of the horse. This whole thing rings wrong on many levels for me.

[amastrike]

Normandy, these people know your horse better than you do. I know, I know--they've never met your horse and know nothing about him. But some COTHers are just that good. They know everything about every horse, even ones they've never met, and certainly know better than the horse's loving, dedicated owner. Don't bother trying to explain, they're right and you're wrong, end of story.

[Ambrey]

OP also mentioned that her vet had told her to keep riding, so whether or not the diagnosis was correct, the vet thought she was doing the right thing.

I just love how the stories go though. From scratching because he was a bit high and spooky to him being BAD because he was in PAIN. :rolleyes::dead:

[lorilu]

AnotherRound, THis is what YOU missed:
We'll ride our tests ""(assuming he's having a "good" day) ""

"Assuming he's having a good day" means if he is having a bad/off day she would not ride... THAT was the intention..... and we all know that a horse can come up off for a few steps in the middle of the test, after a bad step, or a hole in the footing, or a stone, or a bobble by the rider.... especially if he is sometimes off....

CoTH lives up to its reputation. I always think three times and read the post three times before posting here.

Glad you went, and had fun. Glad he had a good day.

L

[MrWinston]

But knowing alot about horses after 40 years as a HJ professional and 40 years of horse ownership. I also know that there are vets who will not bother to work up a transitiory lameness because it's hard to do, takes lots of time and can be vague. Some vets are just not good with lameness of this type. I would personally want a specific diagnosis or at the least a really good, educated guess after serious evaluation. Just seeing the horse move won't tell you where the lameness is, especially in the rear. Maybe it would have been a good idea for the OP to be more clear about what kind of veterinary evaluations have been done with the horse.

From what the OP posted about how her test went, it sure sounded "bad" to me. I guess one person's "feeling too good to be in control" is another's "bad."

[Jealoushe]

Oh for chrissakes. He wasn't BAD, he was THOROUGHBRED. It was windy and cool and he was full of himself. It's not like he ran around trying to buck me off or was being disobedient, he was UP.

Our test was... "eventer-like".

Maybe I ought to post a video from Thursday when he was showing off on his own (he was acting like a TB then, too. Or was he just being "bad"?).

*eyeroll* you guys are extracting things that weren't said. For a group of people who think I ought to be so concerned for my reputation, you don't take much care in protecting your own.

My horse is a Thoroughbred through and through, and an eventer. So, your comments aren't falling that well with me.

What exactly is "eventer-like"...like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meuY-tnq32c

So, your test was "hairy" because he is a Thoroughbred?...come on.

[Ibex]

Normandy, these people know your horse better than you do. I know, I know--they've never met your horse and know nothing about him. But some COTHers are just that good. They know everything about every horse, even ones they've never met, and certainly know better than the horse's loving, dedicated owner. Don't bother trying to explain, they're right and you're wrong, end of story.

:lol::lol:

OP - if it makes you feel better, I know at least one other person whose good-girl WB was behaving like a high-as-a-kite TB on Saturday at that show as well...

Re: the show sheet: it had been HOT all weekend and we had a sudden and unexpected drop in temp overnight. All our horses were outside without sheets as well.

[Ambrey]

Normandy, these people know your horse better than you do. I know, I know--they've never met your horse and know nothing about him. But some COTHers are just that good. They know everything about every horse, even ones they've never met, and certainly know better than the horse's loving, dedicated owner. Don't bother trying to explain, they're right and you're wrong, end of story.

And the vet's opinion means nothing, because vets are wrong all the time. Especially when the disagree with the posters described above ;)

[Ibex]

My horse is a Thoroughbred through and through, and an eventer. So, your comments aren't falling that well with me.

What exactly is "eventer-like"...like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meuY-tnq32c

So, your test was "hairy" because he is a Thoroughbred?...come on.

OMG... friends at Rolex said they saw some of the most hideous dressage ever. And these are eventers. Get over yourself.

[meupatdoes]

I am scheduled to show, and going anyhow (flamesuit). We'll ride our tests (assuming he's having a "good" day) and do a short/easy warmup. If we get rung out, we're there to support our barnmates that are going and enjoy the camping trip and social aspect. (Note: horsey is doing well, but in the last week sometimes later in the ride starts to take the occassional uneven step -- no head bobbing or unwillingness).

So if/when I get the bell, dismount and walk out? In the case of a multiday show... do you give it a try the next day or just scratch the whole thing?

You're right. No intention there. "I am scheduled to show and going anyhow. We'll ride our tests....if/WHEN I get the bell..."

Your words. Not mine. You can't take them back. You intended to show until the bell rung. Re-write it all you want, you said it not me. In fact, you had several days to rewrite it and didn't. I am unimpressed, and even less impressed that you can't own up to your intentions.

I love how you strategically hilight in red only the parts that you want.

Allow me to help:

"We'll ride our tests (ASSUMING HE'S HAVING A "GOOD" DAY) and do a short/easy warmup..."

Which appears to be exactly what she did.

The first two days, he was having a good day, and they showed.
The third day, when she didn't think he was having a good day, she scratched.

You seem to view this situation as an opportunity to be the biggest @$$ to someone you can possibly be, and wow are you seizing the moment.

[MrWinston]

:lol::lol:

OP - if it makes you feel better, I know at least one other person whose good-girl WB was behaving like a high-as-a-kite TB on Saturday at that show as well...

Re: the show sheet: it had been HOT all weekend and we had a sudden and unexpected drop in temp overnight. All our horses were outside without sheets as well.

I never took horses to a show even in summer without at least a show sheet, just in case the temp dropped. Usually kept a sheet or blanket on the show horses if weather permitted just to keep them clean.

Not interested in argueing terminology, like the difference between "hairy" and "bad."

[meupatdoes]

I never took horses to a show even in summer without at least a show sheet, just in case

Oh for Christ's sake.

Would you like a medal or a chest to pin it on?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Ibex]

I never took horses to a show even in summer without at least a show sheet, just in case the temp dropped. Usually kept a sheet or blanket on the show horses if weather permitted just to keep them clean.


Well aren't you perfect?

I'll be sure to remind my trainer that next time the temp drops abruptly at 2am she's supposed to go outside and put blankets on all the horses. :rolleyes:

[meupatdoes]

Well aren't you perfect?

I'll be sure to remind my trainer that next time the temp drops abruptly at 2am she's supposed to go outside and put blankets on all the horses. :rolleyes:

I think you should call MrWinston to do it.

[Ibex]

I think you should call MrWinston to do it.

*snork*

[normandy_shores]

My horse is a Thoroughbred through and through, and an eventer. So, your comments aren't falling that well with me.

What exactly is "eventer-like"...like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meuY-tnq32c

So, your test was "hairy" because he is a Thoroughbred?...come on.

I was making a reference to him being high as a kite -- commonly seen in thoroughbreds and eventers.

Right, and I'm supposed to give YOU all the consideration in the world after a sweeping generalization regarding TBs or eventers in the dressage phase offended you, after you've diagnosed my horse and told me my intentions?

I'm not making a knock against thoroughbreds, I own and love one dearly. He just happened to be stereotypically thoroughbred and on high alert that day. It's a cliche, a stereotype. Stereotypes are formed partly because they tend to be largely true, obviously not universally applied. The way I described my test was exagerrated and in humor. It couldn't have been THAT bad, especially after reviewing the video and a couple of 7s.



What is it you want? *I* wanted protocol on an "in case" or "what if" scenario. You want me to say you're right and I'm wrong? I hear you loud and clear, but the way you've interpretted my scenario isn't as it was, so it's not really applicable.

I'm not missing social cues, I was missing the protocol for the scenario and a full background history on the situation. What I DO know was that anytime you post on CoTH you should have a flamesuit on. What most people here are missing is the full story, my intentions and the ACTUAL scenario. Since I was looking for advice on what to do if this particular situation presented itself and not looking for advice on the horse's well-being/"lameness" etc, I didn't elaborate on it. Clearly a mistake on my part, though I refuse to take responsibility for some people's vengeance and rudeness on here, particularly after an explanation has been offered.

[Jealoushe]

OMG... friends at Rolex said they saw some of the most hideous dressage ever. And these are eventers. Get over yourself.

a few rides?...not sure I wasn't there. I'm more than certain there are a few rides at EVERY show that are just plain hideous. Events, dressage, hunter.

Get over myself? Because I wouldn't take a horse to a show where there was a good change I might get rung out for him being lame?

No thanks I like being under myself where my horse comes first and showing second.

[Nojacketrequired]

NS - glad you had a great time on the weekend - it's what it's all about!

I'm trying to restrain myself over that comment.

Having had TB's for a long time, I also know that one that is "off" at home can magically turn into a sound, raging lunatic when put into a new and exciting situation...only to be even more off the next day.

Case in point, my mare had her shoes removed and is a little short in front. Didn't even want to jog in hand for 30 seconds to see how off she is. I put her in her field, where a new horse has just been added, and they all joyfully ran around like idiots, no sign of any lameness.

Today however, will be a different story...

I just wouldn't have taken the chance.

NJR

[Moderator 1]

There's been ample opportunity for posters to state and restate their opinions regarding this and related situations and the utility in having the thread continue is limited.

Thanks,
Mod 1