Spin-off: Difficult Horse, WWYD?

[HotIITrot]

I’d love to hear some COTH wisdom!

At the beginning of the year a friend of mine purchased an extremely talented 6 yr. old OTTB who had showed successfully at Training level with her prior professional owner. Tried the horse out twice (everything went well) & had a very clean vet check.

Since the horse has been purchased the owner (experienced; has ridden through Intermediate) has had problems with said horse that have progressively gotten worse over time.

My friend noticed within the first couple of weeks that the horse ‘doesn’t like’ to stand still/halt. When the horse is standing/halted for too long she’ll start backing up. Once the horse starts backing up it’s hard to get her to stop/move forward again.

However, a few weeks later & since then it is learned that the horse does this backing up over numerous other random ‘issues’ (ie dogs barking, randomly in the middle of a dressage test, crossing water, going down a certain path, etc…)

At first the horse was ‘backing up’ once or twice a week, but has now progressed to 4+ times a week & I believe has even reared at one point recently.

When the horse backs up, at times she’ll ‘run’ backwards. Most of the time she’ll stop, refuse to move forward & back up again & repeat this cycle. She’s seemly VERY stubborn & angry when this is all happening.

My friend has tried numerous ‘tricks’, but seems to be having some trouble. There have been different approaches such as:

-Being assertive, yet patient (a couple of good whacks with the whip & time for the horse to think about it/process it) – Didn’t work

-Being mild (No use of crop, gently talk to calm horse down) – Didn’t work

-Try having someone lead the horse forward (people have gotten hurt during this process when she pulls back hard) – Didn’t work

-Try turning the horse & circle (forward) out of it. – Best results, but not a ‘cure’ by any means

-Being aggressive (get angry, flip whip & whack the horse a good 4 times) – Only tried a couple of times. Made the horse angrier & she did it worse/harder. Seemly very counterproductive.

-Tried different bits (rollers, leverage, happy mouths, and much more) – No change. The horse is now regularly ridden in a KK Ultra Double Jointed Snaffle in all 3 phases.

-Try following another horse – Helped at times, and other times it didn’t really work. Plus, most of the time there isn’t another horse around/being ridden when this horse is working.

Since the original vet check the horse has been looked at by another vet and chiropractor with no findings or changes.

What would you do/recommend in this situation?

[shawneeAcres]

I would get a good "cowboy" type rider that will ride her thru it. She NEEDS to udnerstand forward means FORWARD, not tomorrow but NOW. I had a horse here with similar tendency for me to market, ownertold me about it. At first she didn't try it but then after a few weeks began doing it worse and worse. Sent her to an Aussie trainer/cowboy and he put HONKING spurs on (did not hurt her but made her UNDERSTAND) and basically he made her go FOWARD. He would "lope" her around and around, if she tried to stop she got loped some more. When she came home after one week, she was a different horse. It worked and she was sold internationally as a show jumper prospect.

[twofatponies]

Some horses can pick up a bad habit faster than you can blink. This horse has gotten away with the backing up dozens of times now. If the circling worked best, do that every time, and be quicker to do it. Don't wait til the horse is going backwards, do it as soon as the forwardness starts to die. Be sure the rider is not hanging on the mouth, inadvertently pulling the horse backwards.

A cowboy might fix it, but if the current rider can't do the same technique as the cowboy, the horse will find that "hole" in the rider's technique again, or some other hole, and go back to the bad habit again eventually.

So I'd go to a good trainer for help, but make sure they train the rider as well as the horse. And do it now, before it turns into rearing and flipping over! Don't wait til the horse has figured out it can do that, too!!

[hb]

When I was younger and braver I rode a horse like this for a few months. She was trying to get out of work and had her owner's number, which was why I got to ride her. One ride she ran backwards so fast she tripped and fell over. I got up, put her on the lunge and worked her pants off. At first she was having fun running and bucking on the lunge. Then she was done playing and wanted to stop. I snapped the lunge whip and made her keep going until she was dripping with sweat. When I let her walk she seemed relieved. Then I turned her around and lunged the other way. Then I got back on and walked, trotted and cantered in both directions, then cooled her out and put her away.
The next day I came out, tacked up, walked, trotted, cantered in each direction, about a 10 minute ride. She was an angel. I stopped and put her away.
She never ran backwards on me again. Occasionally when she was really, really good at the beginning of a ride I'd cut it short and put her away, back in the stall to eat her hay. Not every time she was good, just once in a while, to reinforce that if she was good she might get a free pass.
This particular horse was smart, opinionated, alpha and a little lazy. I didn't plan this method ahead of time, it just seemed what to do at the time, give the horse an awful lot of what she was trying to avoid in response to her bad behaviour. Not sure if this will help with your friend's mare but it might.

[Ajierene]

If she is backing up over specific issues, my only other suggestion would be to ask her to back up even after she is done backing up for her own reasons. We did this with a few naughty school horses and it did fix them, but it is not an end all. Worth a shot.

[the lady of shalott]

I would get a good "cowboy" type rider that will ride her thru it. She NEEDS to udnerstand forward means FORWARD, not tomorrow but NOW. I had a horse here with similar tendency for me to market, ownertold me about it. At first she didn't try it but then after a few weeks began doing it worse and worse. Sent her to an Aussie trainer/cowboy and he put HONKING spurs on (did not hurt her but made her UNDERSTAND) and basically he made her go FOWARD. He would "lope" her around and around, if she tried to stop she got loped some more. When she came home after one week, she was a different horse. It worked and she was sold internationally as a show jumper prospect.

I had a friend who had the same exact problem... Of course we are in Montana.. and the girl was riding Western.. so the dads solution was to back the horse into an electric fence. (ouchhh) The horse never backed to avoid moving forward again.. Not that I would ever try this with a horse, but the cowboy methods do work. But still ouchhhhh. lol

[Carol Ames]

Have vet/ chiro check the back; then try shawnee Acres suggestion with extreme caution; be sure someone is trhereewith a phone in hand in case horse goes over:eek: backwards:(

[mademoiselle]

I have 2 right now that I'm riding for some friends that do that.

One is a young very talented mare. She did that last year when we got her going under saddle . She would stop by the gate and just shut down. I fixed it and then we gave her the winter off. I started her back a couple of weeks ago and she was picture perfect. Well, the other day while I was cantering in the indoor, she slammed on the brakes, bucked and started running backward. It was so random that she got me off.
Well, after that she decided that she didn't want to be a riding horse anymore and just wanted to go back in her pasture and have fun with her buddies.
I'm currently riding her in the round pen. It's much harder to back up in a round pen for horses and she is learning the true meaning of forward : FORWARD IS NEVER, NEVER, NEVER QUESTIONABLE.
When that concept is clear, the problem will be solved.
Tell you friend to be ready for huge tantrums.


The other horse was a very spooky stallion. He got gelded and I really try to keep him busy all the time. I ask him something every stride (inside bend, outside bend, shoulder-in, Leg yeld, medium trot, halt, trot, canter, trot, circle, cross rail. I don't give him a break. I ride him 25 minutes or 30 mn straight and he is done.
If I don't keep him very, very busy that's the end of my ride. He stops, spins, rears (straight up, not a little hop).

It's not an easy issue to fix, but it's doable.

[vali]

Has anyone tried Regumate yet? Worked quite nicely for my highly opinionated Connemara/TB cross mare who would decide she's rather run backwards/sideways whenever her hormones weren't quite right and she was feeling cranky.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It sounds like the horse is objecting to how it is currently being ridden. Maybe your friend is a whole lot more in the horse's mouth than the previous rider. When a horse is going well with one type of rider, but with another it progresses downhill, that tells me the horse is really trying to tell you something.

I would seek help from the previous rider, or her trainer if at all possible.

[harveyhorses]

I half leased my QH for a couple of years, and he discovered if he started backing, he got to go back to the barn. It was only when he was alone. I asked what they had done to correct him and they said circled. So I got on and sure enough he started backing I did not circle, I put his nose on my knee and kept him spinning for a good while after he was tired of it. He tried once more, spun him the other way. NOT and easy circle, and they can trip if they are throwing a nasty tantrum.
Sounds like this mare has just got your friends #. ( I hope it is nothing else)
Just my 1.5 worth. More coffee is needed before it's the whole .2

[RiverBendPol]

I'd agree with the spinning solution. Rider must be quick to catch the horse before the backing actually starts and spin that thing till she thinks it will fall over then spin some more. Not aggressively, just firmly. Take the shortened rein over and hook the hand holding it behind the thigh and sit still. (horse nose at rider knee) When the cow tries to stop, urge her to continue with heel pokes or whacks with the dressage whip. As long as she's spinning she can't be rearing, which pleases ME immensley when I am in this predicament! When she really feels like tipping over, change direction. Forcing the back-up beyond her choice is another good method but be careful, you can also force the rear.
When the thing is actually working in the ring, practise getting her in front of the leg. I had a wonderful lesson in this yesterday on my lazy-bone-behind-the-leg-may-as-well-stop-and-go-backwards-TB. Canter around the arena in 1/2 seat, pushing forward into a really forward canter-mine was faster and bigger than I really ever want to do in the ring with coach shouting 'COME ONNNNNNN! LEG!!! GO GO GO!!!" (YIKERS:eek:) So then, after going around like that a few times, she had me come into a 20 m circle, keeping the blasting canter. As my beast started to change the pace a bit, she had me spiral into a 10 m circle, smaller, smaller, with outside leg alone, nothing else changing. At this point, the circle controls the speed, the canter becomes quite lovely and round and bouncy! Then back out to 20 m, and on to blast around the full ring again. We did that a few times, both directions, and guess what. What a lovely, forward moving, fancy little horse I had. I'm going out now to see how he's feeling about going backwards today:winkgrin:
As long as you are confident the horse isn't dealing with some health issues, then you will just have to work through the misery. You've checked for Lyme, EPSM and ulcers, I presume?

[twofatponies]

From my experience the head-around/spin strategy can work very well, but make sure there is a reward, not just punishment. Ask for forward in a normal way, if horse goes back, go in the tiny circle/head-around. Then offer they can go forward nicely walk trot whatever. If they go nicely, then let them go nicely and do whatever normal work you planned on until they offer to do the naughty backing up. There has to be the reward of "soft and easy" when they are doing the right thing, or they'll just get resentful and sour about work.

[Catalina]

:lol: Anyone notice it is mainly mares that do this?

I had a mare that did the same thing along with rears, bucks, sunfishes, etc thrown in for fun. I tolerated that for all of one ride before I sent her bottom off to a cowboy. When she returned, she was perfect :).

[TB Fan]

I know a mare that does this too. She starts it when she is getting tacked up. It's bad too. She'll back up so fast she'll end up sitting on her ass like a donkey. We've had her checked up one side and down another. Nothing physical that we can find. It's not all the time either. One thing I will add is that it tends to happen when her owner/rider is a bit tensed up. It's almost like she is picking up on that feeling. On days when her owner is relaxed and pre-occupied with other things, the mare is fine.

[harveyhorses]

From my experience the head-around/spin strategy can work very well, but make sure there is a reward, not just punishment. Ask for forward in a normal way, if horse goes back, go in the tiny circle/head-around. Then offer they can go forward nicely walk trot whatever. If they go nicely, then let them go nicely and do whatever normal work you planned on until they offer to do the naughty backing up. There has to be the reward of "soft and easy" when they are doing the right thing, or they'll just get resentful and sour about work.

I guess I forgot to mention that part:o
Mine is a gelding, but he is a redhead.

[HotIITrot]

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice & experiences.

We haven’t thought of sending her to a cowboy, but at this point it’s starting to look pretty attractive to me. Does anybody know of any good ones???

Other suggestions were good ones, but many of them were tried with no avail. :no:

While the turning strategy gave the owner the ‘best’ results I don’t think it’s the answer in this case right now. It only works ½ the time. The other ½ the horse just plants her feet & WILL NOT MOVE even if she’s being kicked, spurred & smacked with the crop. She’ll go backwards, plant, backwards, plant. If you try turning her many times she’ll just turn her head around & WILL NOT MOVE.

She really is so random too. Many times she’ll be fine & something stupid will spook her, she leaps forward & then is tense & before you know it she’s stopping & going backwards. :(

[shawneeAcres]

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice & experiences.

We haven’t thought of sending her to a cowboy, but at this point it’s starting to look pretty attractive to me. Does anybody know of any good ones???

Other suggestions were good ones, but many of them were tried with no avail. :no:

While the turning strategy gave the owner the ‘best’ results I don’t think it’s the answer in this case right now. It only works ½ the time. The other ½ the horse just plants her feet & WILL NOT MOVE even if she’s being kicked, spurred & smacked with the crop. She’ll go backwards, plant, backwards, plant. If you try turning her many times she’ll just turn her head around & WILL NOT MOVE.

She really is so random too. Many times she’ll be fine & something stupid will spook her, she leaps forward & then is tense & before you know it she’s stopping & going backwards. :(

Yes, since you are in NC you should send your mare to Bruce Egglesfield, I believe he is still in NC near Greenville. PM me for contact info. He is who rode the mare I mentioned and haas ridden MANY MANY difficult horses, some for VERY well known dressage horse trainer/breeders. I highly recommend him

[Jaegermonster]

It sounds like the horse is objecting to how it is currently being ridden. Maybe your friend is a whole lot more in the horse's mouth than the previous rider. When a horse is going well with one type of rider, but with another it progresses downhill, that tells me the horse is really trying to tell you something.

I would seek help from the previous rider, or her trainer if at all possible.

i agree. And in addition to checking the back I would check the saddle fit. If she just bought the horse she's probably riding it in a different saddle than the old owner

[Carol Ames]

The backing until' shes' tired of it sounds:lol: interesting; my concern comes because an older tbmare who, had been toa NH to fix bucking, went backwards with me, started bucking, "sunsfishing "and finally threw herself pn the ground THis was all at at the end of a working session;these techniques sound very interesting but, my iown experience ity a horse backing up ,landed me in a hospital:eek: with a moderately severe concussion,fractured ribs and collarbone; try backing her on long lines first:yes:

[fordtraktor]

I had a friend who had the same exact problem... Of course we are in Montana.. and the girl was riding Western.. so the dads solution was to back the horse into an electric fence. (ouchhh) The horse never backed to avoid moving forward again.. Not that I would ever try this with a horse, but the cowboy methods do work. But still ouchhhhh. lol

I rode a horse once with a similar backing issue that backed itself into an electric fence. Certainly not intended, but the thing wouldn't stop backing. Not my fault! I can't say it helped much.

Agree that this is a forward issue. The only fix is to teach horse that forward is a command, not an option. You don't have to be a cowboy to require horse to go forward. Leg reinforced with whip is the classic solution. I'm not surprised horse objected when the rider got after it before -- it usually gets worse before it gets better. But IME, if you stick with it, at some point a switch will click and suddenly the problem is gone.

Lots of horses go through a similar stage when they reach the point of training where they start to reassert themselves. It is unfortunate that the horse has been allowed to get away with it for so long -- it makes the process of getting over it much harder the longer it is allowed to continue.

ETA: agree also that this can be dangerous if your friend is not good at reading the horse's body language. You want to be forceful, but if you ignore the signs it is easy to escalate to rearing. Whoever does this should be very experienced with young horses, which is why so many send to cowboys. I've never had a problem with rearing, but I have worked with a lot of young horses and know how far to push them. If they are getting near the edge, I just sit quiet for a sec and let horse think/relax a bit before resuming my demand for forward. Otherwise horse will feel trapped, panic, and be more likely to go up and over.

You also need to be very calm. If the rider is tense, horse will pick up on it.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The only fix is to teach horse that forward is a command, not an option. You don't have to be a cowboy to require horse to go forward. Leg reinforced with whip is the classic solution. I'm not surprised horse objected when the rider got after it before -- it usually gets worse before it gets better. But IME, if you stick with it, at some point a switch will click and suddenly the problem is gone.

Yes, but make absolutely sure in this stage that the "front door" is WIDE open. BOTH hands forward, loops in the reins. You have to clearly show them where they CAN go, so UP is not their next choice.

[Jealoushe]

A cowboy? Why...are there no riders who can ride a difficult horse anymore?

It's a Thoroughbred, who probably did too much too soon after the track. She needs someone calm, and patient.

I say get off the horse and go to the lunge, or round pen. It's a great way to re-teach going forward without danger to the rider. I would say the horse is in fear of something, not sure what maybe getting jabbed in the mouth, a sore back, too strong aids, it could be anything.

Some people just don't get Thoroughbreds.

[fordtraktor]

Yes, but make absolutely sure in this stage that the "front door" is WIDE open. BOTH hands forward, loops in the reins. You have to clearly show them where they CAN go, so UP is not their next choice.

Agree, sorry I was not clear on that point but thought it went without saying given that the cue for "back" is hand+leg (i.e. closing the front door as you call it). If rider is not capable of staying out of horse's mouth, she doesn't need to be on the horse because animal would just be doing what she told it to do.

I don't care much for loops in the reins b/c some horses will resort to going sideways instead of forward and you need to be ready for that. But no contact and soft hands are a must.

You still have to be careful about reading the horse. In this situation the horse's brain is often shutting the front door, and even loops in the reins are not sufficient to erase that. The whole point of the exercise is to make the horse realize that the front door IS open and that he should go through it, to beat the metaphor to death.

[Fairview Horse Center]

In this situation the horse's brain is often shutting the front door, and even loops in the reins are not sufficient to erase that.

Yes, in this situation, I have had good luck going a bit farther. I take both reins and kind of flip them forward a bit - kind of like trying to make a rope hit the ground just a bit farther away.

I call it shaking the reins at them, but it really is more like making forward waves in them. Often that will help them to open their brain, see the way forward. It is also kind of a peace offering, especially if it started by someone grabbing at their face, and they became resentful. It says, "oops, I'm sorry, here ya go. You can have your head back." It also totally changes the rider's posture to a forward thinking one.

[shawneeAcres]

A lot of people get the wrong idea when you say "cowboy" The "cowboy" I recommended to the OP is an Aussie who now happens to ride and own cutting horses BUT he grew up doing pony club, eventing, jumping and drivng harness racers! So yes, he rides in a western hat, blue jeans, cowboy hat (big one!) but some of the top trainers and breeders of sport horses on the east coast have sent young horses to be started or problem horses to him with fabulous results. Not all "cowboys" are created equal and this one knows his stuff.

[oldhorsegirl]

Really, really check that your/her saddle is not pinching somewhere. Is the sweat mark even when the saddle comes off, or is there maybe a dry triangle in the hollow behind the withers/shoulder? MANY horses simply can't put up with a saddle that doesn't fit really well.

[fordtraktor]

Shawnee Acres, I didn't mean to imply at all that the guy you recommended doesn't know his stuff or that being a cowboy is a bad thing. I just meant to say that there is nothing majikal about what the "cowboys" do with horses, and you don't need to be a cowboy to deal with the OP's issue.

Some of the best horsemen I know are "cowboys." A horse is a horse, regardless of breed, and some of these guys are second to none in understanding horses.

[Sku]

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice & experiences.

We haven’t thought of sending her to a cowboy, but at this point it’s starting to look pretty attractive to me. Does anybody know of any good ones???

Other suggestions were good ones, but many of them were tried with no avail. :no:

While the turning strategy gave the owner the ‘best’ results I don’t think it’s the answer in this case right now. It only works ½ the time. The other ½ the horse just plants her feet & WILL NOT MOVE even if she’s being kicked, spurred & smacked with the crop. She’ll go backwards, plant, backwards, plant. If you try turning her many times she’ll just turn her head around & WILL NOT MOVE.

She really is so random too. Many times she’ll be fine & something stupid will spook her, she leaps forward & then is tense & before you know it she’s stopping & going backwards. :(

If she plants herself, have you tried out waiting her? It really depends on the horse, but I've heard some people got results from it. It goes against the idea of forward is forward now, so I'm a little hesitant to recommend it, but in some cases it has worked. So if she stops, keep her stopped. 20 minutes later, 30 minutes later, an hour later, she's probably going to want to move. Don't let her until she is so sick of standing still that she will easily listen to your aids.

[HotIITrot]

... Leg reinforced with whip is the classic solution. I'm not surprised horse objected when the rider got after it before -- it usually gets worse before it gets better. But IME, if you stick with it, at some point a switch will click and suddenly the problem is gone. ...

That’s good to know/nice to hear. The horse was definitely worse when my friend got after her, but maybe my friend just needs to be more persistent & stick with it (while reading the horse etc…) :confused:

... In this situation the horse's brain is often shutting the front door, and even loops in the reins are not sufficient to erase that. ...

I’ve watched this pair go many times & when the mare does ‘her thing’ this is exactly what happens. She just shuts down, gets stubborn & angry and there is no ‘reasoning’ with her so to speak.

The thing is, the horse doesn’t do this all of the time & they’ve had plenty of ‘good’ rides where the horse didn’t ‘shut down’ & misbehave. However, when it does happen, this mare throws a tantrum!!!!! The main focus my friend has been having with this horse is doing everything she can to prevent the problem, but she is learning rather quickly that no matter what you do to try to prevent it, it will happen at one point or another (ie The mare decides she doesn’t want to walk past a big white rock, and there she goes again!!!!) She’s unpredictable!!!! They’ll have a week or two where things are going well, and my friend thinks they’re making progress. Then she’ll be blasted with a week where you’re thinking to yourself ‘What Happened?’. :(

... But no contact and soft hands are a must.

I totally agree with everyone’s point about the rider being effective & correct. This rider is quite good & has gotten numerous compliments on her quiet/soft hands from judges, spectators, etc… on many horses, including this one.

Such a frustrating situation!!!!

[D_BaldStockings]

Holding a TB that has planted itself i.e. with the hands is an invitation to rearing and flipping IMO. Rearers that flip can kill you.

Out-waiting the stop with an open door and alternately using a whip/crop rhythmically and repeatedly (and annoyingly) so long as the horse is going in reverse or planted -still with the open door until the horse takes that one step forward -hallelujah! end the whip cueing and leave the door open.
But I would start that on the longe without a rider.

I know of one horse made far worse about rearing by a series of many failed longlining sessions, and one that flipped and killed herself during same. Not that you want to put a rider on a horse that may flip, but longlining needs a very practised touch with this kind of response.

The horse definitely needs to be taught forward and to be consistent in it's response and then get the rider back on and confirm.
I have no way of knowing whether the rider also needs work on seat, legs and hands, but it doesn't hurt any of us to have an experienced eye on the ground give suggestions, we can all improve.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

has your friend tried Regumate....it sounds like she is having tantrums in cycles....and kind of like people, I have found that some mares get "pms" like attitudes that the Regumate can help smooth out. Will not cure it entirely...but it helps.

[frugalannie]

Just curious: has your friend asked the pro from whom she bought the horse about this little problem?

[mademoiselle]

I agree that it always gets worse before it improves and yes, be prepared for a big tantrum.

And remember the longer it has been going on, the more violent/angry the horse is going to be.

It seems that the rider has questioned herself a lot and has tried different technics to try to fix it but didn't really stick to one. The fact that the mare was not objecting as much when circled is because it's the sofest approach.
When you start to really get after them, they always get mad. Then they start to understand that when the go forward it is better. She needs to get to that stage.

If you don't have forward, then it's game over. Riding is not possible if the horse is not forward.
Bucking strap, big girl panties, a round pen or a big field, a whip and get the job done.

I also a agree about checking her cycles, one of the mares I had in training in the past would always question forward and bending to the right when she was in heat. Never to the point where she would run backward, but once or twice she reared and a she gave me some ugly rides. Hormonal supplements are your friend.

[Equilibrium]

I'm just not the greatest fan of the whip in this situation and it seems I'm the only one, and I'm not an anti whip person, but some TB fillies will get worse and stay worse. But at the same time she is now in the habit of getting out of work with her little game.

If we have something that decides forward isn't an option and they'd rather be done, I insert hubby to the mix. And while he isn't a cowboy (no irish cowboys) he is unconcerned with how he looks, has a wicked strong leg, splits his reins, and uses leg and reins in front of the saddle too. Add in a few growls and before you know it we have forgotten all about going backwards and are now going forwards because they are trying to figure out what the heck has just gotten on their backs. I have yet to see any previously bad backer do anything but go forwards with him in the saddle and no whip is needed. He never goes to the whip on a filly or mare, that is for geldings and colts. And we are sent some real dandyies! And maybe mostly the reason people have problems with fillies and mares is because they are less likely to forgive you when confronted. But at the same time, they usually have more to give in the end.

I agree with other poster who said, once you give them that all important, we are going forward day, to give them an easy "this can be fun and simple" for their next day.

I would nip this in the bud quickly. I would find a strong rider, be it cowboy or whatever you want to call them and get her sorted. And when I say strong I don't mean your friend is weak, I'm not on about that. I don't consider myself weak, but hubby has some real good advantages that I just don't waste.

Terri

[Moody Mare]

Thanks everyone for sharing your advice & experiences.

We haven’t thought of sending her to a cowboy, but at this point it’s starting to look pretty attractive to me. Does anybody know of any good ones???(


Kevin Wescott - Kindness Trainer - Nebraska
The best! Yep.
You can google him.

[Carol Ames]

Excellent advice for the rider!:yes: are you certain the saddle fits?



A: agree also that this can be dangerous if your friend is not good at reading the horse's body language. You want to be forceful, but if you ignore the signs it is easy to escalate to rearing. Whoever does this should be very experienced with young horses, which is why so many send to cowboys. I've never had a problem with rearing, but I have worked with a lot of young horses and know how far to push them. If they are getting near the edge, I just sit quiet for a sec and let horse think/relax a bit before resuming my demand for forward. Otherwise horse will feel trapped, panic, and be more likely to go up and over.

You also need to be very calm. If the rider is tense, horse will pick up on it. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4172965)

[HotIITrot]

Horse is on Regumate.

Just curious: has your friend asked the pro from whom she bought the horse about this little problem?

My friend has tried contacting the previous owner with no luck.

In terms of saddle fit: While I don't believe a 'saddler' has been out to check the saddle fit, both saddles seem to be balanced & fit well to us. Also, I know a vet has been out within the past month and has not found anything wrong with her. If the saddle didn't fit; wouldn't her back be sore?

[LKF]

1) keep her on Regumate
2) start from the beginning and get her in a round pen
3) keep it simple in the round pen where you do up and downward transitions at the trot and walk and halt.
4) if you have to, put a light western saddle on her along with a breastplate and while in the round pen get her to understand what it means to move off the rider's leg. Be prepared and ride with a whip, good helmet and a vest
5) keep her going forward and switch directions often - always keeping her thinking
6) this isn't a saddle issue, but rather a personality issue, therefore be ready for her to go up and possibly flip
7) forward from the rider's aids is what needs to be taught over and over again. Stick with it and don't give up and switch techniques because this can be confusing to the horse. Don't forget to reward the good behavior.
8) Have the vet take a Suceed ulcer test : http://www.succeedfbt.com/readingTest.asp
It costs $40 and is worth investigating and you'll have an answer in 5 to 10 minutes of taking the test.
9) get another rider on a sturdy lead-pony type and have them pony you. This is something all track horses are familiar with and do quiet well.

I'm only mentioning this to you because I am breaking and galloping 2 fillies at the moment who have been real buggars to train and have done everything that you've described your friend's mare does. I had to start all over with them and work through the rearing and stopping and flipping and walking backwards, etc.

If there is an experienced trainer in your area, I think it's best to send her off for 30 days. If you're not experienced with horses like this, you're going to get hurt, scared or both.

[twofatponies]

As to "cowboys," I have seen a couple of dressage clinicians deal with horses that decided they wanted to kill the rider halfway through a session. With a great deal of firmness, but excellent timing and sensitivity. It made for some moments of great ugliness (driving a horse sideways who was trying to buck a woman off - and he was trying hard - or sitting through several "caprioles" while insisting on forward and straight). The "cowboy" ability to deal with really sticky horses isn't just found in western riders, obviously.

[retreadeventer]

Just a tiny word of caution.

In reading this thread, I see a lot of advice - most of it physical - things to do when the mare does the backing. I am afraid of this sort of stuff. It can end up very bad. When you don't know the horse and can't see what is happening, taking absolutely blind advice can get someone killed. There, that's my warning for the day....sorry....

Here is what I think, for what it is worth.

I guess bad behavior, in retrospect, is always precipitated by something that is extremely bad to the horse. Horses do not like to back in normal circumstances. They can't see well behind them, so a horse that backs up violently is really throwing caution to the wind, and wants everyone to know how desperate they are to avoid whatever is triggering the emotional outburst. In the wild if a horse backed up into a snake pit or lion den he got eaten, and I think backing violently is very much against the nature of a horse's flight/survival mechanism.

Something began triggering this outburst by this mare. I think I have sort of stated this as a mantra and I'll say it again. Horses don't lie and they don't fake it. It is an owner's responsibility not to just assume that the first, second or even third vet to wander through the barn had or did not have the answer. Often, it takes a good bit of sleuthing to find the problems, or set of problems, that start causing extreme reactions. You will need the eyes and knowledge of a whole group of people, and preferably, people who have a bit of experience in this horse world and can draw on it.

I had a horse that was difficult to mount. He was one hundred percent sound. Four vets had looked at the horse and said, "no problems". The FIFTH vet said lets exray ankles; let's get some different views than what has been done before; LO AND BEHOLD. Chips, chips, in bad places and behind things - conventional work would not have found. I owe it to a very knowledgeable vet who was smart enough to think things through and find a different solution, and this horse had been exrayed THREE times previously on the same joint and all said fine, no problems. I also knew enough about the horse, and how he acted, just walking out of the stall sometimes, to be able to pinpoint at the least the correct limbs for examination.

Moral: never say never, never say always, keep looking for the physical reason, it's there, and try to determine what is causing this. Spooky, uncomfortable, running backwards - EPM or Lymes....if the trigger is jumping or hard ground work - navicular. I am not so quick to blame the riding or the rider, nor do I think this is a schooling issue quite as much as it is a physical one to start with. I have experienced this sort of thing with horses before and it's always been something physical that started it, mostly with green horses who were sore someplace. It was always pretty easy to find the reason for it, though - so that is why this concerns me. Once again, though, not seeing or knowing this horse, all this is is a guess.

Best of luck and I hope sincerely that no one gets hurt. A horse that is backing like this, and then plants -- extreme measures, like the "forward or else" stuff - will get someone injured. Please be cautious. It is not worth getting hurt over.

[citydog]

Nicely said. :yes:

[Thomas_1]

You need a good assessment from an experienced trainer on the ground and watching precisely what the circumstances are which are causing this.

Systematically you need to work through and eliminate the following:

Tack fit - particularly right bridle and uncomfortable or ill fitting saddle

Back pain and dentition

Rider error - particularly heavy application of the rein to halt and then no release to reward.

You might also want to get this checked out when the horse is not under saddle and ideally when long reining. Don't even go here though unless you have someone who is an experienced trainer who can read horse quickly and with light hands who knows how to long rein PROPERLY and can get out of the way if the horse decides to shoot backwards.

Once all that's eliminated then the horse needs a rider with a secure seat and a quiet and unflappable disposition on board.

It is indeed a technique to make them back but IMO it's not that practical and has limited effect. Too often horses like this try the backing thing when you're in the worst place possible. Though I must confess to doing precisely that when riding a horse myself recently that did just as described and having seemed to have worked through the problem I decided to ride him out alone and he had a lapse of manners and went in reverse when he saw the irrigation system in the potato field! In that case I let him go backwards and then made him go some more and till he dropped his back legs in the ditch and then I gave him such a smack with the whip that he lept back out of it!

So what you actually do need to do is get a secure rider on and sitting straight and with a whip or rope in one hand and just ask nicely with a squeeze (NO rein contact at all! Reins held in the hand that doesn't have the whip. Merely take up the 'washing lines to indicate you're ready to move off. ) Then a nice little encourage with the leg and seat and if there's no response a swift (immediate) hard smack. The loose rein will allow her to go forward and the fact you don't even have both hands on mean there's no restraint at all when you move to smack her.

If she doesn't go forward then repeat till she does and the very second she does praise her. Even if she lunges forward! and keep going when you praise her then relax, ask her to stand and repeat.

Quite simply you need her to learn that a polite ask with the leg does mean forward and the aid must be clear and backed up quickly if the ask is ignored and then praise the moment she's going forward.

[RAyers]

A cowboy? Why...are there no riders who can ride a difficult horse anymore?

Amen!!!!!! What does a cowboy do that a well-rounded horse person can't? cowboys do the same stuff many of us can do, maybe with just a bit more attitude. A cowboy is no magikal fixer. They just take the time to fix problems many are afraid to deal with.

I am with Thomas and others, working with a good trainer as eyes on the ground can do more for the pair than any cowboy. One thing that has not been provided is information on the rider. Sure she has gone intermediate but that means little. You can buy ready made OI horses. Sure she has "good" comments from judges etc. I get the same thing but that does not mean I can ride every horse or fix every problem by myself. Training with COMPETENT eyes on the ground is a MUST.

I have had 2 horses with similar issues. My old AO/GP Jumper would literally run out of the show ring BACKWARDS if I was not careful. My current horse will lock up HARD when confronted with too much commotion. Over the years I worked hard to take my time, figure things out and build up. Each one was different and the solutions changed almost every day. There is no one answer, hence the need for someone to be there to guide the rider, regardless of expertise.

[pixie]

Your friend is the horse's "new" owner. To me the horse is clearly in some kind of discomfort or pain OR has your friend's number Or both!. Your friend cannot "read" the signs early enough because she does not know the horse well enough yet. Some horses are so dominant that it takes very little for them to gain control.
This horse went through many recent changes perhaps she is sporting an ulcer? Do her feet hurt? Perhaps your friend is not using a great farrier. Ditto on the saddle fit ....she's obviously a princess! The horse's pain issues are not taken care of and the horse doesn't trust your friend yet and acts out....trying to tell your friend there's a problem! The horse is certainly a Drama Queen and could most certainly use some tough love on the ground. Perhaps the horse gets away with something very simple like moving while your friend mounts and is NOT corrected. Now this dominant Drama Queen sees your friend's weekness and is testing the boundaries. It is up to your friend to investigate every angle to get to the root and look very hard at herself at the way she interacts with this mare.
Good luck!

[HollysHobbies]

I had a young TB horse that did this and 2 things cured it (although checking saddle fit and vet check sound important as well):
1. when my horse did it (he did it on the ground, NOT undersaddle though), I backed him up. Back, back, back around the ring, field wherever...just kept backing until he was so sick of backing she wants to go forward...then back some more...don't get pissed or "uncalm"--stayed very calm, just was insistent and firm...I kept an eye on him, but I didn't stare him down or anything...dropped my eye and backed him (it wasn't a challenge from me, just a quiet lesson) My vet taught this to me years and years ago. It only took about a week for him to figure out maybe backing wasn't a way to get away--for him, it was about evading something on the ground (he did not do it under saddle) :)
2. Groundwork--like, on the longe line...so she learns when you get behind her, you are pushing her forward...it make take a second person to get behind her to drive her forward if she runs backward as fast as my horse used to!!! At least once a week. I think TBs in particular really respond to groundwork as they are maturing. Good, calm groundwork. If you/the person isn't good at it, it might be time to consult a trainer who can show you some respect type things on the ground...longing or roundpen, moving over when you ask, horse not mowing you over or stepping into your space, ground tying, etc.

[Carol Ames]

Ditto on the saddle fit ....she's obviously a princess! ZThere are some saddles "Name brands" which are constructed in such a way that the points ( think inverted "V" point down into the muscles behind the withers, when horse tries to raise the back/ move a leg' they dig into the muscles discouraging any attempt to move, ie. "go; find your local saddle fitter; they are most likely to be able to identify this; likewise a saddle which "fits but, is too narrow;I can'' tell you how many horses come to clinics with the label "won't go forward" and with a wider , different saddle change; some of these horses would not even stand for mounting because the pressure of an ill fitting saddle caused them to move;:eek: why wait for the weight of the person to press down on the saddle; ? they know what that the person is going to do,:eek: and it hurts!:mad::winkgrin:

[HotIITrot]

Thanks again for everyone's input.

... I had a horse that was difficult to mount. He was one hundred percent sound. Four vets had looked at the horse and said, "no problems". The FIFTH vet said lets exray ankles; let's get some different views than what has been done before; LO AND BEHOLD. Chips, chips, in bad places and behind things - conventional work would not have found. I owe it to a very knowledgeable vet who was smart enough to think things through and find a different solution, and this horse had been exrayed THREE times previously on the same joint and all said fine, no problems. I also knew enough about the horse, and how he acted, just walking out of the stall sometimes, to be able to pinpoint at the least the correct limbs for examination. ...

Wow! Interesting story!

... keep looking for the physical reason, it's there, and try to determine what is causing this. ...

I'm just trying to understand here:

Are you saying that this isn't/couldn't be purely a 'mental' issue? That every time a horse misbehaves consistently he/she is going through pain somewhere.

Do horses have mental imbalances like people do?

[fordtraktor]

Some people believe that every time a horse does something we don't like they must be in pain. IME this is an excuse, not an explanation.

Without question, the first course of action when one runs into an undesirable behavior should always be to try to eliminate pain as a source of misbehavior.

If that doesn't work, then I believe it can be a training issue. Horses are smart. I have known many horses that "misbehaved" because they had very effectively trained their owners to let them stop working when they did something undesirable. For example, if a horse does something bad and gets to stop working, they often will do the bad thing again because they got a reward for it last time. This is how training problems generally escalate into a downward spiral, particularly when the rider is not good enough or is afraid to correct the problem with a firm but fair "no, we don't do that. We do this instead, good boy."

I don't believe in the "pain causes everything" plan because a lot of what we ask horses to do is not natural for them. You don't make a 4* horse simply by creating a pain-free world for a plug. Pain can prohibit a horse from making progress and should always be considered when you run into a problem, but pain relief is not a sufficient replacement for good old horse training.

[Carol Ames]

If the saddle didn't fit; wouldn't her back be sore? not necessarily in the places the vet is checking:no:
************

[Carol Ames]

a secure rider on and sitting straight and with a whip or rope in one
A secure rider is not necessarily a "tight rider", ie., check that the buttocks are relaxed , not tightened, this can block the horses' attempt to raise the back, move a leg; also no squeezing with the knees or calves, holding the horse in a vise grip:eek: type of position is also not :no:conducive to encouraging movement of the horses' body

[Carol Ames]

a secure rider on and sitting straight and with a whip or rope in one
A secure rider is not necessarily a "tight rider", ie., check that the buttocks are relaxed , not tightened, this can block the horses'attempt to raise the thehe horse in a vise grip:eek: type of position is also not :no:conducive to encouraging movement of the horses' body

[mandalea]

My old horse use to be the worst for backing up !

I was told to make her back up as soon as she stopped moving, and put my hands forward, up her neck, and push her forward. If no go, back up again, and give her a spank when I put my hands forward.

Stopped backing up unnecessarily in not time :D

[jackalini]

My mare tried this for a short while - the only thing that worked was to take one rein and turn her head all the way around to my knee. Continuing backing, forcing backing, getting aggressive (whip, legs, whatever) did NOT help. In fact, it made her go faster and/or rear. They aren't as coordinated going backwards, and I was not about to push her and encourage more rearing/reckless backing.

I would suggest that if it is as bad as it sounds, she needs professional help - a trainer who will both ride and coach.