Rules Question

[regeventer]

OK, some of you have already read/heard my story, but here goes - and I have a question if I had done something differently could I have salvaged my XC ride:

Go out on XC at N level. Jump # 2 I go over the Training jump and continue to jump # 3. Finally get flagged down and thrown off course # 4.

Would it be legal for me to have cirlced at jump # 2 and gone over the N, and gone on to finish the course???? I know I would've had to make up time, but no more than if I'd had a refusal at jump #2???

I may have been able to salvage my run if I'd known this at advance.

Thanks any rules gurus out there!!!

[SevenDogs]

If you realized your mistake BEFORE jumping Novice Jump #3, then yes, you could circle back and jump Novice Jump #2 and continue on your way. You were still competing right up until the moment that you jumped Novice Fence #3. The moment you jumped Novice Fence #3, you were eliminated, not because you jumped Training Jump #2 but because you DID NOT jump Novice Jump #2. You were considered off course because you "skipped" Novice Fence #2.

So yes, if you realize that you have jumped the wrong jump before going to the next fence, you can correct the error with nothing but time penalties, if applicable. I know this rule from personal experience. :lol:

[tarheelmd07]

I think there are 2 things contributing to getting Eliminated in this case - jumping Novice 3 before Novice 2, and the fact that a jump you jumped that was not on your course was a level above what you were competing. What sevendogs says above about circling back and jumping Novice 2 before Novice 3 is correct - ie: if you missed a fence, realized you missed it, and went back to jump it before jumping the next fence, you're ok and just accrue time penalties.

When it comes to jumping things not on your course, I thought the rule was that you can jump flagged obstacles not on your course as long as they're below the level you're riding at. So, if you were riding Novice, jumped a flagged BN fence on the way to one of your fences (or jumped the BN fence, then circled around and jumped the novice fence) that's fine. However, I don't think you're allowed to jump a flagged obstacle above the level you're riding. So, in your case, there were 2 reasons for elimination - jumping Novice 3 before Novice 2...and jumping a flagged obstacle above the level you were competing at.

[SevenDogs]

When it comes to jumping things not on your course, I thought the rule was that you can jump flagged obstacles not on your course as long as they're below the level you're riding at. So, if you were riding Novice, jumped a flagged BN fence on the way to one of your fences (or jumped the BN fence, then circled around and jumped the novice fence) that's fine. However, I don't think you're allowed to jump a flagged obstacle above the level you're riding. So, in your case, there were 2 reasons for elimination - jumping Novice 3 before Novice 2...and jumping a flagged obstacle above the level you were competing at.

Nope. You can jump obstacles above your level without penalty (straight from the very knowledeable TD's mouth when I accidentally jumped the Training cabin instead of Novice) as long as you also jump all of your own jumps. There was also a semi-recent thread on this part of the rule book and why the rule has historically been in place.

There have been recent cases where a rider was assessed Dangerous Riding penalties for jumping a jump several levels above that which she was riding in an unsafe manner, but that is a completely different issue.

[subk]

Nope. You can jump obstacles above your level without penalty (straight from the very knowledgeable TD's mouth when I accidentally jumped the Training cabin instead of Novice) as long as you also jump all of your own jumps.
This is correct. However, when jumping a fence above your level you do open yourself up for a Dangerous Riding penalty. It would entirely be at the discretion of the the TD.

[Fergs]

Nope. You can jump obstacles above your level without penalty as long as you also jump all of your own jumps.

I thought this was only true if the jump above your level was directly in your path. An example would be a Training jump into the water, with both Novice and Training sharing an up bank out. It's my understanding Novice riders could jump the Training jump in without penalty, but going out of your way to jump an obstacle on the Training course would result in elimination.

[SevenDogs]

I thought this was only true if the jump above your level was directly in your path. An example would be a Training jump into the water, with both Novice and Training sharing an up bank out. It's my understanding Novice riders could jump the Training jump in without penalty, but going out of your way to jump an obstacle on the Training course would result in elimination.

Nope. But SubK is correct that jumping jumps above your level opens you up to Dangerous Riding Penalties, particularly these days.

If I were a betting person, I would guess that this rule will be changed soon in one of those "let's make rules so it seems like we are making things safer" sessions, so I would check with the TD of any show I was planning on jumping something not on my course (unless, of course, you do it by mistake like me and the OP!).

[RiverBendPol]

The moral of the story here is: READ THE RULE BOOK BEFORRRRRRRRE YOU COMPETE...:winkgrin:

[flea]

I jumped a training fence instead of a novice on xc, then realized it when the ditch after didn't look familiar. We did a big whoa, and my little QH did a roll back for me and we went for the proper one. Wasn't eliminated, as I did all the Novice jumps in the proper order. The jump wasn't connected to the Novice one but close and they were identical, training just a little higher. That is not an excuse but I was so nervous as it was my first rec event. I realize it could be open to DR penalties although there wasn't much difference between the two. I hope they don't change that rule although I never plan to do that again. I am sure there are those who might jump a jump not on their course for various reasons as have been discussed on this board. However, I have only met people doing that by accident. If it had been a huge jump or one not the same as one on my course surely I would have noticed that!:)

[SevenDogs]

I jumped a training fence instead of a novice on xc, then realized it when the ditch after didn't look familiar. We did a big whoa, and my little QH did a roll back for me and we went for the proper one. Wasn't eliminated, as I did all the Novice jumps in the proper order. The jump wasn't connected to the Novice one but close and they were identical, training just a little higher. That is not an excuse but I was so nervous as it was my first rec event. I realize it could be open to DR penalties although there wasn't much difference between the two. I hope they don't change that rule although I never plan to do that again. I am sure there are those who might jump a jump not on their course for various reasons as have been discussed on this board. However, I have only met people doing that by accident. If it had been a huge jump or one not the same as one on my course surely I would have noticed that!:)

It is a fairly easy mistake to make when there are several of the same type fence, just made bigger as the level increases. There, I feel better now that I was an idiot and did it too! :D

RiverBendPol: I agree about reading the rule book, but I have been doing it for 15 years and still can't find things when I am looking for them. I wish there was better organization or a good index. Combining the confusing structure of the rule book with the with multiple mid-year rule changes of late, and I understand how questions come up on this board. ;)

[canterlope]

This is correct. However, when jumping a fence above your level you do open yourself up for a Dangerous Riding penalty. It would entirely be at the discretion of the the TD.Close, but not quite. It would entirely be at the discretion of the Ground Jury, not the TD.

[subk]

Close, but not quite. It would entirely be at the discretion of the Ground Jury, not the TD.
yeah, technically correct...but it probably wouldn't make it to the GJ without some pretty solid input of the TD.

The time I've considered jumping a fence above my level I spoke with the TD first. She pretty much assured me that yes it was legal but if I screwed up she would personally see that my proverbial rear end was grass! (We were friendly acquaintances so she felt comfortable squinting her eyes at me and threatening dire consequences for the continuation of my life. :wink: ) But yeah it would be the GJ.

[Janet]

When it comes to jumping things not on your course, I thought the rule was that you can jump flagged obstacles not on your course as long as they're below the level you're riding at. So, if you were riding Novice, jumped a flagged BN fence on the way to one of your fences (or jumped the BN fence, then circled around and jumped the novice fence) that's fine. However, I don't think you're allowed to jump a flagged obstacle above the level you're riding.
NOT true under current rules.

[Janet]

Does anyone know of a case of someone getting a DR penalty for jumping a fence (in the correct direction) ONE level above the level they are competing?

The only case I know of was several levels higher, AND jumped backwards.

[SevenDogs]

Does anyone know of a case of someone getting a DR penalty for jumping a fence (in the correct direction) ONE level above the level they are competing?

The only case I know of was several levels higher, AND jumped backwards.

No, in fact, this is the ONLY case I know of. Wow... backwards... didn't know that part -- that'll do it!

IMHO, if you are going to be tagged for DR at a fence one level higher than you are competing, you probably were going to be tagged anyway. I don't see this being a widespread problem, by any means.

[Divine Comedy]

I have been told that you may jump a fence that is either one level higher or one level lower without being eliminated. So if you are riding at Novice and you jump a Training fence, that's okay so long as you circle back and catch the Novice fence. However if you are riding Novice and jump a Prelim or Intermediate jump then you would be eliminated.

I think that if that happened, they would probably get you for DR in that case, but I think you were eliminated in this case regardless in the days before the DR penalty.

[Janet]

I have been told that you may jump a fence that is either one level higher or one level lower without being eliminated. So if you are riding at Novice and you jump a Training fence, that's okay so long as you circle back and catch the Novice fence. However if you are riding Novice and jump a Prelim or Intermediate jump then you would be eliminated.

I think that if that happened, they would probably get you for DR in that case, but I think you were eliminated in this case regardless in the days before the DR penalty.
Told by whom?

[Hilary]

In the "for sake of discussion" this came up at an event recently.

Prelim & Training jump up a bank, and down off the ramp. 60 feet away is a ditch with a very wide face. Both T & P jump the ditch.

But in between, P has a rolltop that is half the width of the ditch and placed not entirely justified right. So T has what is essentially a narrow face to the ditch if we go around the roll top, whereas P has a giant wide face for the ditch after jumping the rolltop.

We (my fellow T amateur rider friends) discussed if it was OK to jump the P rolltop because it was directly in the path to the ditch.

My take was with all the talk about DR penalties and being safe on course (even though us T riders are not having the bad accidents) that we might get in trouble for doing it even though it's legal.

None of us jumped the rollltop but it made the approach to the ditch much more difficult.

My horse spooked terribly at the rolltop end (big gaping black hole that it was). But maybe that was part of the course design.

[Divine Comedy]

Told by whom?

Two separate trainers in two different states. One is a ICP Level III and another is ICP Level IV and is heavily involved in many USEA and USEF committees.

Of course, neither is a rules guru, and it may be that what they told me is a myth that has long been perpetuated and now everyone believes it to be true without actually checking.

You know how that can happen. :D

Like I said, that is only what I have been told. And everything about DR that I mentioned was pure theory on my part.

[canterlope]

I have been told that you may jump a fence that is either one level higher or one level lower without being eliminated. So if you are riding at Novice and you jump a Training fence, that's okay so long as you circle back and catch the Novice fence. However if you are riding Novice and jump a Prelim or Intermediate jump then you would be eliminated.Divine, your two different, heavily involved in USEA/USEF committees, ICP trainers are incorrect. Think about this scenario for a second and you'll understand why.

Two fences sit next to each other, one Novice and one shared by Training and Preliminary. A Novice level competitor jumps the Training/Preliminary fence by mistake, but corrects his error by circling back and jumping the Novice fence. If your ICP trainers were correct, this competitor should be eliminated for jumping a Preliminary fence. But, did he really jump a Preliminary fence? Or, did he actually jump a Training fence? And who should be the one to make this call?

In addition, if your ICP trainers were correct, the only way to make sure that such a rule was evenly and fairly enforced would be to place at least one jump judge at every fence on every course regardless of what level was running. If you didn't, then one competitor could get away with jumping an fence two levels above his own out in the back forty because no one saw him while another competitor would be eliminated for doing the same thing at a fence just because someone happened to be there and witnessed his transgression. Most events barely have enough volunteers to man all of the fences on one course, much less every fence on every course at the same time. Forcing them to have enough volunteers would be a burden many organizers could not bear.

[Divine Comedy]

Divine, your two different, heavily involved in USEA/USEF committees, ICP trainers are incorrect. Think about this scenario for a second and you'll understand why.

All right, I looked through the rule book and you are right.

However, I would have appreciated if you had conveyed this to me without being condescending.

Simply stating "Your sources are incorrect. There is no such rule in the rule book," would have conveyed your message appropriately.

Instead, you not only implied that I am an idiot who believes in the ICP program, but you also implied that I could not think of those two reasons for myself. By the way, neither of those reasons holds water for me.

(For instance, I had run across the case of a T/P jump next to a N jump and was told to make sure to jump the N because if I jumped the T/P it would be up to the TD to decide if elimination was warranted. And you would NOT need jump judges at every fence, simply at the level that was currently being run. A higher level fence would be very unlikely to be jumped unless it was right near the jump that was actually to be jumped. I realize there are exceptions, but in the high majority of cases, nearness and similarities of the jump are the reason such a larger fence would be jumped.)

If you did not mean to be condescending, please realize that you came across that way to me. I simply mentioned what I had heard on the thread because it pertained to the OP question, and when asked my sources, stated that they were experienced trainers. I even admitted they could be wrong. There was no need to respond in the way you did.

Thank you for your correction.

[CookiePony]

One way to learn a lot about XC rules is to fence judge. You will get a full briefing from the TD. So here's a shameless plug for volunteering.

[sch1star]

I for one hope they do not change the rule.

At the lower levels - and by low I mean BN and even pre-BN courses offered at unrec events that run by sanctioned event rules - often we see courses with water/banks/ditches only at higher levels, even though the questions may be basic (e.g., simple pass through water). These are resident questions on N courses and up, but not easy for most people to school at home. It's really nice to have the option to use a xc run to school these questions, safety permitting, with knowledge of possible time incurred, etc.

For example, we walked the KO BN course this spring with an eye toward schooling the water even though water was not on the course. The student stood in 2nd after D and we decided against making an effort at the water because she wanted to preserve her standing if possible, and because the BN xc track was too far off the water crossing track for the water to flow well in the course. But it was still really nice to have the option of using a wonderful property and well built "special question" to school a team getting ready to move up to N.

I agree with the posters who suggest it's never a bad idea to speak with the TD about any planned deviation. They can't promise you won't be eliminated because they don't know ahead of time whether you will ride your plan safely, but it's a nice heads-up at least of your intention, and you'll find out in advance if the officials at any particular event will not receive the deviation favorably for whatever reason - the given "deviation" is in their opinion too complex a question for the level you're competing, etc.

I have jump judged at a HT that had a trakhener side by side with an open ditch - the ditch flowed through both obstacles. A competitor with a ditchy horse chose to jump the open ditch flagged for N, circle around, and then jump the trakhener on her T course. As the jump judge I was warned that competitor number so and so was going to do this and how to score it properly - thanks to organization by competitors and officials, this worked well.

It would be a shame IMO to see the potential to pursue these kinds of options get "ruled" out. :(

[canterlope]

All right, I looked through the rule book and you are right.

However, I would have appreciated if you had conveyed this to me without being condescending.

Simply stating "Your sources are incorrect. There is no such rule in the rule book," would have conveyed your message appropriately.

Instead, you not only implied that I am an idiot who believes in the ICP program, but you also implied that I could not think of those two reasons for myself. By the way, neither of those reasons holds water for me. First of all, I was not trying to be condescending, I was trying to be somewhat funny. I am truly sorry that you choose to see it as the former instead of the latter. Second, there were already several posts that stated there was no such rule. Yet you posted anyhow that you had been told there was. Since merely stating there was no rule did not appear to alter your beliefs, I posted examples to show why it would not be possible to enforce such a rule, therefore the rule would not be enacted in the first place. There was no negative judgment on my part about your ability to think for yourself. To the contrary, had I had any doubts about your ability to think for yourself, I certainly wouldn't have posted a reply that required you to do just that. And third, when Janet asked who had told you what you had posted, you didn't just state they were experienced trainers, you included a list of credentials as well. I included your list of credentials in my response not to be condescending, but to show that, regardless of the number of committees a person sits on or the credentials held, no one in our sport gets it right every time.(For instance, I had run across the case of a T/P jump next to a N jump and was told to make sure to jump the N because if I jumped the T/P it would be up to the TD to decide if elimination was warranted.I already posted this once, but I think it bears repeating. It is not the TD who makes elimination decisions in cases of Dangerous Riding or any other case for that matter. This discretion is left to the Ground Jury. The only role the TD plays is to gather information and assist the Ground Jury in interpreting the rules.And you would NOT need jump judges at every fence, simply at the level that was currently being run. A higher level fence would be very unlikely to be jumped unless it was right near the jump that was actually to be jumped. I realize there are exceptions, but in the high majority of cases, nearness and similarities of the jump are the reason such a larger fence would be jumped.)I beg to differ. Just about every rule we have that results in a penalty being awarded to a competitor is geared towards the exception. Plus, it is not up to the organizers to pick and choose which rules they think the competitors will not violate and make no provisions for fair and uniform application of those rules. If it was true that a competitor was not allowed to jump obstacles two levels above or below the one currently being contested, the organizer would be bound to make sure that there was no possibility for any of those "illegal" obstacles to be jumped undetected. It would not matter if they were right next to the obstacles currently on course or sitting out in a back field by themselves. If it were possible for the competitors to get to them, they would have to be manned. And, if you truly believe that competitors don't take the opportunity to "school" obstacles two or more levels both above and below their own no matter where they are located, I strongly encourage you to tag along with a TD at an event sometime. Witnessing competitors jumping obstacles not on their course will probably be the least of your worries.If you did not mean to be condescending, please realize that you came across that way to me. I simply mentioned what I had heard on the thread because it pertained to the OP question, and when asked my sources, stated that they were experienced trainers. I even admitted they could be wrong. There was no need to respond in the way you did.Ditto.

[saje]

Ok so here's a question -

If general horse training wisdom has it that one should be safely schooling a level higher than one shows, why should it be considered DR to jump a fence one level higher than one's current competition level? (Assuming of course that the fence was decently ridden & not at mach 5, and the rest of the riding is controlled and thoughtful.)

Anyone?

[canterlope]

Ok so here's a question -

If general horse training wisdom has it that one should be safely schooling a level higher than one shows, why should it be considered DR to jump a fence one level higher than one's current competition level? (Assuming of course that the fence was decently ridden & not at mach 5, and the rest of the riding is controlled and thoughtful.)

Anyone?The actual act of jumping a fence one level higher is not considered dangerous riding. It's the manner in which the jump is negotiated that drives the DR concerns. If the jump is taken as you described, I seriously doubt that any Ground Jury would consider it warrants DR penalties. If, however, the horse is out of control and jumps an obstacle the ride had no intention of negotiating or the obstacle is negotiated in a reckless and unsafe manner, then the Ground Jury may consider it warrants DR penalties.

In a nutshell, it's not the act, but rather the actions during the act that are considered when assessing DR penalties.