Rules question- liverpools?

[reallyroo@yahoo.com]

When/at what levels are liverpools allowed in stadium? I noticed Waredaca had one for Prelim at the last event, but they took it out for the BN course. Anyway, I'm moving up to Novice and my horse is stupid about them, so I was wondering when I'll have to face this problem. Thanks!

[FlightCheck]

Training and up

[Janet]

As far as I can tell, there is nothing explicit in the rules about which levels are permitted to have a liverpool. But (at least around here) it usually has an option at the lower levels.

[FLeckenAwesome]

Poplar had a liver pool at Training but it did have an option to avoid it. There was no option at Prelim and no liver pool at BN or novice. (Area 3)

[SparklePlenty]

MCTA had it Training and Up - they pulled it for us at the Novice level.

[HER]

I had a Liverpool at novice at waredaca two years ago with no option that I remember.

[sch1star]

Have you tried creating one with a blue tarp and some poles? Very easy to do and might cure your worries about whether it'll be on the course!

[deltawave]

Never seen one at Novice and I think that would be an awfully unfair question for that level. I have seen "trays" under Novice fences painted bright colors, though--"fake" liverpools if you will. Have seen them at Prelim more than once, rarely at Training and always IME with an option and only at bigger events.

Blue tarps are your friend for so many, many reasons. This is one of them. :yes:

[idunno]

I don't know of any rule preventing the course designer from putting liverpools at novice or BN. Perhaps an instructor could help you and your horse with liverpool issues? It shouldn't be too hard to teach a horse that can jump everything else at novice to make it over a tarp...

[wildlifer]

I have seen them at Novice schooling trials. They are not hard to train for and it is invaluable for your horse. Buy a cheap blue tarp and train away.

[Shortstroke]

I remember one w/o water in it at BN at Riber Glen about 4 years ago.

[JAM]

Not hard to train for corners or skinnies either, but that doesn't mean they should be on lower level courses.

I don't know of any rule preventing the course designer from putting liverpools at novice or BN. Perhaps an instructor could help you and your horse with liverpool issues? It shouldn't be too hard to teach a horse that can jump everything else at novice to make it over a tarp...

I have seen them at Novice schooling trials. They are not hard to train for and it is invaluable for your horse. Buy a cheap blue tarp and train away.

[goobs]

If they aren't hard to train for then why not put them on lower lever courses? Small corners, liverpools, skinnies but why not? It would make for a great confidence builder for horse and rider and the jump between levels wouldn't be so great. I never understood why we don't see those things on lower level courses. We train for those things at home all the time - green young horses and with beginner riders as well.

[wildlifer]

I have mixed feelings about it, JAM. We first encountered a liverpool in a 2'6" jumper class. My horse said NO FREAKING WAY and left me on top of the jump. First time I'd come off him in 3 years and it freaked him out and left us with some confidence rebuilding to do. We went home, did our tarp training, and now we can deal with them.

I sure don't love them and am always nervous about seeing them on course as a result of our encounter. I definitely don't think they are a fair question for BN course at all. I have to say I was surprised to see them in the Novice course where I did, but at the same time, most horses I watched did just fine with it. I do think it is a good test of bravery and partnership and also of whether you've really done your homework on training. But I do agree that it should be something where there should be a specific rule, say, you can't use them below Training, or Novice, or whatever, so people know because it certainly can be a major deal (at least my horse thinks so).

[JAM]

Because they don't encourage forward riding (actually they encourage backward riding), particularly with lower level riders who are pretty much 90-95% of the competing population at the lower levels. I don't mean this in a snide way, but many lower level riders and horses, even ones that are decently prepared at home, have trouble getting around without having to deal with the added complexity of technical fences that are seen -- and often not handled all that well by even ULRs -- at P and above.

Encouraging bold, forward riding by horse and rider is THE goal for the lower levels -- see the rulebook. John Williams had a great article about this in the USEA magazine several years ago, stating that the goal is to get the horses/riders around at the lower levels and build up both the height AND the technicality as one progresses up the levels. Unfortunately, course designers seem to have missed the message and instead seem hell-bent on designing mini-Badmintons. We've seen what has happened at the upper levels; import that philosophy into the lower levels with less experienced, less knowledgeable, less talented riders (and horses), and...........

If they aren't hard to train for then why not put them on lower lever courses? Small corners, liverpools, skinnies but why not? It would make for a great confidence builder for horse and rider and the jump between levels wouldn't be so great. I never understood why we don't see those things on lower level courses. We train for those things at home all the time - green young horses and with beginner riders as well.

[wildlifer]

Wanted to add, the liverpool I witnessed DID have an option so you weren't forced to jump it.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Because they don't encourage forward riding (actually they encourage backward riding),.


Why do you say that? I don't ride a liverpool any different than any other fence. It is just a blue thing under a jump that you jump over.

Everyone that I know (both jumpers and eventers) start schooling over them very early in a horse's training....and I would expect a horse showing at novice to be able to jump them just fine. Hell...if they have to jump a ditch and into water on xc (as novice event horses do)...they should have been schooled how to jump over a little liverpool in the ring (we usually do that first). There will always be a few who have issues jumping them...but they are not something that "encourages" backward riding in my book. If anything...you can often come more forward to them since they will hold most horses.

The ones that I've seen on courses...I don't see them causing many issues. But I do agree....at the lower levels...I don't mind seeing them on courses but they should have a nice option.

[Bobthehorse]

If they are going to put in questions like corners and skinnies at the LLs, they will only need to keep making lower levels to accommodate the people who cant tackle those questions. A corner is no simple task. And it can cause some dangerous mistakes.

[JAM]

I was speaking more of corners and skinnies (of other questions that call for accuracy) -- those are the ones that induce riders to micromanage rather than to ride forwardly and boldly. Sorry for any confusion.

Depending on how they're constructed and what they look like, and if there's an option, I have less of an issue with liverpools. Custom Made may have a different opinion :).

Why do you say that? I don't ride a liverpool any different than any other fence. It is just a blue thing under a jump that you jump over. ...

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I was speaking more of corners and skinnies (of other questions that call for accuracy) -- those are the ones that induce riders to micromanage rather than to ride forwardly and boldly. Sorry for any confusion.

Depending on how they're constructed and what they look like, and if there's an option, I have less of an issue with liverpools. Custom Made may have a different opinion :).


LOL that makes more sense.

Yeah...when they have an issue with liverpools...they can sometimes REALLY have an issue ;) Von Csadek is the one who comes to mind for me!