Anyone know this trainer?

[farmgirl88]

Does anyone know of Matt Clark? Believe hes out of suffolk and charleston. Any personal experiences with buying horses or know anything about him? Thanks in advance

[farmgirl88]

maybe this will help. he's an older british guy. PM if you'd like

[QuillcoteFarm]

I dont know him but I talked to him last week re a horse. He seemd VERY straight forward, and all his horses look like they are taken care of very well. What horse are you interested in, he has some nice ones!

[farmgirl88]

Bay Miner. Hes a nice horse, quiet, but almost seemed TOO quiet considering what i have had experiences with on the track and the rest in the barn. You'd expect at least something out of the horse, not just to mosey around...but maybe im wrong. He was very clean legged but VERY skinny : /

He was a very good boy but not sure if his conformation would stand the test of eventing. Just didnt know if anyone else had experiences buying from him.

[farmgirl88]

he had another deputed testimony colt that could've come home with me that day. I have an extra stall :D

He was ADORABLE! but he also had a bone broken in his face when he was little and it calsified into a big lump on the right side of his face, but i didnt care....he was GORGEOUS and had the prettiest head. He didnt tell us he was for sale when he showed us him though. He just wanted to show us his face. I can only imagine the pricetag on that looker:D

[Barnfairy]

I haven't had any dealings with Matthew Clarke * but I can tell you from personal experience that there are some horses which just can't keep weight on at the track, even in the barns of top conditioners.

My Salty girl was this way, and her appetite and attitude have improved greatly since coming home. She was a withdrawn kind of quiet at the track because she wasn't feeling her best. Now that she has good weight on, she has a lot more energy.

It's a lot to ask of a horse: be an athlete in an extremely demanding sport, while growing physically & mentally, in an environment which is lacking in turnout, direct social contact with other horses, and grass. Some horses adapt better than others; good caring trainers recognize this and rehome the ones that can't cope.

[DickHertz]

I agree with Barfairy. A skinny horse does not make a bad trainer. If they are all skinny with dull coats that is a different story. And there are horses who run better skinny (although I think far too many trainers believe this and gip them at cheap tracks).

[DeeThbd]

Ulcers are another possibility....some will drop a fair bit of weight if they have them.
Dee

[QuillcoteFarm]

Hey farmgirl, just curious, did you ever pick up anything at Suffolk? ;) Did you get to meet that trainer??

[farmgirl88]

yes we did go up but went home to sit on a decision with that horse. made an offer and he told us hed call back the next day but never did. we called once more but never got a phone call back. we're going up with CANTER on saturday to look at a bunch and i guess possibly pick from there

The one bad thing about miner was that it was well know that we were pretty serious about the horse but the trainer was going to enter him the following week we loked at him and race him...anyways...even if we made the offer. we looked at it as you're either selling the horse...or your not so i guess we're going to browse for now and see what comes up on saturday :)

[Sing Mia Song]

The one bad thing about miner was that it was well know that we were pretty serious about the horse but the trainer was going to enter him the following week we loked at him and race him...anyways...even if we made the offer. we looked at it as you're either selling the horse...or your not so i guess we're going to browse for now and see what comes up on saturday :)

It's pretty typical for the trainer to keep entering. After all, until you show up with cash in hand and a trailer, he's still in charge.

What a lot of non-racing people don't realize is that:

1. Horses need to make starts in order for the trainer to keep the stall. The track provides the stall free of charge, and in return the trainer is expected to provide a betting interest.

2. You have to enter several days in advance.

3. The track management Really Doesn't Like It when you scratch.

I looked at a nice filly on a Sunday a few years back and the trainer let me know she was in for Thursday. I asked if he'd consider scratching and he said no. Our deal was that ownership would pass to me as soon as she came back from the spit box. She ran seventh, came back and I picked her up Friday morning.

[farmgirl88]

i think you misunderstood what i had said-

even after we made the offer, he said even if we made an offer, he wasn't sending the horse off until he entered him to race on saturday (entries were due-in on the next wednesday) and the horse raced was on saturday. even if we had given him a deposit on that horse that day the horse was still getting entered that weekend, no ifs, ands, or butts about it, which kind of ticked us off.

he was a nice guy with nice horses and all, but even if we gave him money and even after we made the offer, he still told us he was going to race on saturday, even though he wasnt entered yet

[Barnfairy]

farmgirl, that's not unheard of. Keeping entries up --regardless of whether or not the horse actually finishes in the money-- works in the trainer's favor. He may not want to lose that stall.

The trainer I bought Rasor and Salty from made it clear he intended to keep running them. I told him that was fine with me providing the horses stayed sound, and to let me know when he was ready for me to come pick them up. I did not put a deposit down. It worked out fine for me, but I can completely understand why other buyers wouldn't want to agree to such an arrangement.

Certainly not all trainers will be that way. Generally speaking, cash in hand and trailer in tow means you're serious. Offers...not so much. It's a different world buying off the track, definitely not for the faint hearted.

[farmgirl88]

Offers...not so much. It's a different world buying off the track, definitely not for the faint hearted.


oh i know...ive bought at the track before but when the price is neg. you have the right to make an offer.The horse wasnt for me and personally he wasn't anything to write home about and i think there was something a lot nicer out there, we just need to look harder and browse for awhile.

[smilton]

I "own" two that are still racing. As soon as the guys run twice out of the money I get to go pick them up. Gosh darn it one placed second today. I've also had trainers change their minds after that "one last time" race if the horse does well. This is how they make a living I understand. It is more than just a hobby to them.

[Barnfairy]

The horse wasnt for me and personally he wasn't anything to write home about and i think there was something a lot nicer out there...That's exactly my point. No one is saying you don't have the right to make an offer, but ultimately you don't really want this horse so why on earth would his trainer alter his plans to keep running?

Absolutely it's your prerogative to walk away and keep looking for want you really want at a fair price, but don't hold it against a trainer for keeping a horse running if it seems like you might be wavering.

I know it can be aggravating, but it can be equally so for sellers as well.

Happy horse shopping, and good luck in your search! :)

[farmgirl88]

barnfairy0 i understand that also but we made it very clear that we were serious about the horse. if we wern't serious, we wouldnt have made the trip to go and view the horse, nor would we have called and made an offer. The day we went and looked at the horse the guy said that either way, offer or no offer, he was running the horse, even though the horse wasn't even entered to run that day and the horse had just run the previous week.

idk, just seems kind of ludacris to me to make an offer on the horse and make the trip to go an view it and he doesn't actually want to sell it. It is what she was looking for, just not my cup of tea. His conformation was a bunch of different things piled together but the best thing about him was his temperment. he was very quiet and lovey.

oh well, theres plenty of fish in the sea and i personally think its best to go back and look around and see what else is out there. ill let everyone know if we come home with a deposit on one.

[MintHillFarm]

I "own" two that are still racing. As soon as the guys run twice out of the money I get to go pick them up. Gosh darn it one placed second today. I've also had trainers change their minds after that "one last time" race if the horse does well. This is how they make a living I understand. It is more than just a hobby to them.

And wouldn't you know it, he won the other day, n/w of 2, claiming $4000...
So I continue to wait!

[chism]

Bay Miner. Hes a nice horse, quiet, but almost seemed TOO quiet considering what i have had experiences with on the track and the rest in the barn. You'd expect at least something out of the horse, not just to mosey around...but maybe im wrong. He was very clean legged but VERY skinny : /

He was a very good boy but not sure if his conformation would stand the test of eventing. Just didnt know if anyone else had experiences buying from him.

My 19 year old daughter was at Suffolk with her event trainer looking for prospects (for the trainer, not her!!). She called me begging to buy Bay Miner. She doesn't seem to get that the four OTTB's I already have cost me lots of $$$$$. Go buy him so I can tell her he got a good home. ;)

[Barnfairy]

idk, just seems kind of ludacris to me to make an offer on the horse and make the trip to go an view it and he doesn't actually want to sell it.
There is a disconnect between the racing world and the non-racing horse world. I appreciate that it doesn't make sense to you, and it frustrates me too because I think a lot of what could be really good homes get turned off as a result.

I'm not saying it's right, but in a nutshell, many trainers want to sell on their timetable, when the horse is no longer useful to them (i.e., card-filling stall keeper).

At the same time, many trainers have been burned by people who appear to be serious, who show up, take time out of the trainer's day looking at the horse, make an offer......and then change their mind. To some people (and I'm not saying this is the case with this trainer), serious = cash in hand; everyone else is a tirekicker.

Both sides, racing and non, could benefit from walking in the other's shoes sometimes.

As you said, there are plenty more out there. Best wishes to your friend.

[QuillcoteFarm]

Ok so basically if I show up tomorrow with some cash and my trailer, even if the horse is entered in a race next week, I can walk out with the horse :confused: Maybe its also because if you buy like that there is no time for a vet check?

I have been in there years ago, I think it was before CANTER was born and that in fact was the case cash + trailer = horse. I dont remember anything much mentioned about "one more race" back then.

[Barnfairy]

Ok so basically if I show up tomorrow with some cash and my trailer, even if the horse is entered in a race next week, I can walk out with the horseWith some trainers, yes, quite possibly. For others, no.

Maybe its also because if you buy like that there is no time for a vet check?Again, not all trainers will be unreasonable. Please don't jump to conclusions. I am not advocating cash + carry sales.

I have been in there years ago, I think it was before CANTER was born and that in fact was the case cash + trailer = horse. I dont remember anything much mentioned about "one more race" back then.User mileage will vary. Maybe you just didn't hear about it, or perhaps at that time entries were plentiful.

The topic was raised, and I'm only trying to help you understand why some trainers hold that stance.

[Las Olas]

As Barnfairy explained, this situation isn't unusual. If races aren't filling, then racing secretaries put a lot of pressure on trainers to fill the cards. If stalls are at a premium, then the tracks want horses in the stalls that are running. If they don't then the trainers will lose the stalls and they'll go to someone else. Also, the trainer may have verbally committed to entering that horse (as long as it's sound) so the racing secretary can hang a particular race (maybe an alternate) to have it fill. It's not like trainers just walk up and enter their horses on a whim if they like a race. A lot goes into it and there are discussions with the racing staff before a race is even open for entries. Is this making sense?

I don't think the trainer was trying to be difficult, so much as you probably didn't know the whole story behind why he needed to run the horse.

For the small amount of money that these horses are probably selling for ($5k or less) I wouldn't even bother with a vet check, unless there is a blemish that looks suspicious (like a big ankle).

[QuillcoteFarm]

Believe me I understand, as I have been on the selling end as well, and it does suck at times! I was just wondering if anything had really changed since I had been there last. :winkgrin:

Farmgirl, what didnt you like about Bay Miners conf., I think he looks pretty good in the pic???? Just curious because you saw him in person??

[Jessi P]

I hope I can shed a little light on the subject here. Bear with me as I ramble while trying to explain myself.

The horse in question might have been in training with the trainer on a "deal" - a very common way of training cheaper claimers that aren't worth paying $1200+/mo to have in training but who can still jump up and hit the board. In this scenario, the trainer assumes all of the day to day expenses and sometimes a % of the vet bill (all detailed ahead of time in a lease agreement) in exchange for a % of what the horse earns. The owner assumes a back seat role in what happens with the horse's race career, after discussing goals and a strategy ahead of time.

For example. Owner A sends "Ol' Dobbin to Trainer B on a 70/30 deal. Owner A has no expenses and gets 30% of Dobbins earnings. He doesn't have to pay to have the enjoyment of having a racehorse in training. He doesn't call the shots about what the trainer does with the horse either, because the trainer earns that right by assuming the horse's expense. Trainer subsidizes Owner A's "fun and enjoyment," putting minimum $25-30/day out of trainer's pocket into Owner A's horse, not to mention vet work which might also be trainer's responsibility. Owner A has no say over when or where trainer enters horse in a race. Trainer B pays the bills and is in charge of the horse - he is considered the lessor. His is entitled to have the horse on a "race to race" lease. He is entitled to have the horse from race to race in order to recoup his investment in the horse, and all decisions on selling the horse will revolve around that fact. In other words, the horse might be actively for sale but the trainer has the right to keep the horse until it's next race in order to recoup his investment. It is like this... you are selling your horse but you have pre-entered into a horse show or plan to do X with horse Y on such and such a date. That means yes, the horse is actively for sale, but you cannot purchase it until after its next engagement.

It is always a good question to ask when the horse is available to purchase if it is listed on CANTER. Horses careers are usually ended with a certain race - thinking is usually "this horse is going to run 1 more time, or 2 more times" - they don't stay in training just waiting to be sold, the intent is always to race again. If they aren't waiting for a race for a horse trainers usually send the horse-for-sale to the farm to await sale as it is much cheaper to have one at the farm than the track. The ones still at the track for sale will usually be available after their next race, one last chance for the trainer to recoup the investment he has put into the horse and completely fair and non nefarious. The trainer's thinking in this particular instance, I am sure, is that "Ok, now you have seen the horse and can decide if you want it or not." He will call you after it runs, when it becomes available for purchase, and you will have seen it and be able to make a decision. See the recent thread in Hunter Jumpers about my boy Loveable Lo for a similar scenario, where our owner said "I really want a new horse, this one is running 6th, 6th, 6th. Let's put this one up for sale, run him once more and sell him." Several potential buyers were arranged a few days before his last race. Within days of his race last Sunday Lo was sold and arrived at his new home in NJ today. It is responsible and forward thinking to get the horse advertised before it absolutely needs a new address, why can't people understand that? How many non racing people put their horses up for sale on the internet to see what interest there is in that particular animal? How many people inquire about horses that "aren't really looking right now" or "I have to sell my horse first."

OK grammar police, feel free to arrest me for over zealous use of apostrophes!! Cuff me and take me away, PLEASE! :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

[Barnfairy]

Thank you for your insight, Jessi. Your excellent input, and use of the word "nefarious", have earned you a by on the grammatical snarking.

IIRC, during this meet the horse has been running for a trainer/owner team of husband & wife.

[smilton]

And wouldn't you know it, he won the other day, n/w of 2, claiming $4000...
So I continue to wait!

Yep mine too. I had three to pick up a few weeks ago and all three won or placed. One was 57-1 long shot. That's how I ended up with the filly listed on give aways. They put her on my trailer before I left.

[farmgirl88]

huh- very interesting. we stopped by the barn again this weekend with CANTER and he said he didnt forget about us...although a phone call in return would've been nice. He had one more that we're very interested in. maybe we'll take both. both are racing today. The bay still needs to win a check but the other one he said we can go ahead and take. so we'll see after today. after the races today, if bay miner still didnt win a check, we're going to take home the other one as he is better built, just as quiet, and bigger. but theres something about that bay miner horse that my friend just cant get him out of her mind :)

[Barnfairy]

Bay Miner took pretty well to the slop at Suffolk today and ran a game race, gutting it out for second.

He was cool as a cucumber in the paddock beforehand.

[QuillcoteFarm]

Hmmmmm so does that mean he stays and enters another race, or does he have to win????

How often do they run a horse, once a week?????

[Barnfairy]

'Can't answer the first question. As for the second, occasionally a horse will come back in as little as 7 days, but usually the low-level claimers at Suffolk make a start every 10-14 days.

[farmgirl88]

so far miner has race every week for thepast 3 weeks thats i know of. Trainer told us that we could have him once he made a paycheck

[Jessi P]

Totally meaningless but interesting to note that Bay Miner has a half brother Bay of Love 1999 by Not for Love that was a durable stakes placed runner, with 62 starts, 12 wins, 7 seconds, 9 thirds and lifetime earnings of 232,812.

[Laurierace]

As an aside for your entertainment purposes I told my mare that if she won this race she would never have to race again. It was November and she was going to be bred in February and needed go under lights and such. She won by 11 1/4 lengths and then dropped the jock after the wire and refused to let him get back on! She was retired, he could walk back! She was 35-1. It was by far the best race of her life but I kept my promise and it was her last.

[Barnfairy]

Whoa Laurie -- sounds like she was listening! That's a good one.

so far miner has race every week for thepast 3 weeks thats i know of. Trainer told us that we could have him once he made a paycheckYup, he's been workin' for a livin'. In the past month:

5/31, beaten claiming $4000 for non winners of 2 since 11/30/08

1 mile & 70 yards, finished second

6/09, beaten claiming 4000 NW2 since 12/09/08, 1 mile & 70, fourth

6/20, beaten claiming 4000 NW2 since 12/20/08, 1 1/16th miles, fourth

6/29, claiming 5000 NW4 Lifetime, one mile, second

Today's effort brought in a paycheck of $1460. (Fourth at that level gets you about $350.) Part of that check goes to the jock, then deduct what was paid for the pony to the gate, oats in the tub, etc etc etc., and if there's any left over, you've netted a profit.

[unclewiggly]

Is this the same horse Ronnie Brown was trying to sell a while back @ CT?
I just recall this horses name in connection w/ R. Brown and being for sale.

While I do agree w/ alot of everyones reasons behind the sale no sale agena.
Once again if you offer an item be it realestate or livestock and someone offers you your price you are obligated to sell the item unless you upfront make notice on the sale ticket of stipulations. Otherwise remove said object from sale until such time as the transaction can be completed.
Much like some of you who are waiting for a horses career to end. You knew in advance these were the terms of sale. When the trainer finally calls and says it over you can pick up your horse.
But to arrive and look at a horse who is offered for sale, not currently entered in a race, thus no commitment on part of trainer to track and be told he is "going" to be entered. What if the race didn't fill, what if he didn't draw in?? Could you then come back for the horse? When is the sale actually going to be a sale. Not a model home for something to be built in the future?
Something just doesn't sound right, either he is for sale or will be when he's done done. So why not put him up for sale then? Its like bait n switch Oh you see the doll in the window buts it just for dressing, the "other" one is for sale today. The one w/ the bump on the nose???
Fear of losing a stall I understand, but it looks like maybe there isn't another horse to fill the stall w/ so Bay Miner keeps going like the energizer bunny to trickle cash into the coffers.

Not everyone has a farm to send their done horses to. I picked up an 8yr stakes horse @ Pimlico who had no where to go, it happens. And the trainers keep them in some sort of training the owners pay not a full rate since horse isn't being entered or ponied, no vet bills just holding a stall space.

If you are going to sell it, sell it. Otherwise clearly state horse is still actively in training and being entered to race, call for updates when horse will be available.

Its totally a waste of everyones time to make appointments to see a horse you can not pay for and take home.

You are correct it is time consuming for a trainer to hold up a horses program for a potential sale based on "I have to think about it", or wait around for a vetting that might be a day or week away. Cash n carry has always been the best position to be in @ the track. Its not a purchasing plan for the faint of heart or procrastinator.And no I can't spell either......
I hope Bay Miner gets a home and sounds like he's one hard knocking tough cookie who withstood the test of time.:)

[farmgirl88]

yes that is the same horse that was with Mr. Brown. hes only a 4 year old but so far hes withstood the test of being run so much.

Uncle wiggly has what i was trying to say. i understand today's paycheck brought in money but its just so frustrating to chase a trainer around when he knows you want the horse and have the money for the horse. they say right on the CANTER site to not waste the trainers time and dont be a tire kicker. what about not wasting the buyers time? We drove an hour 1/2 to come see a horse that wasnt entered to race, and was listed as FOR SALE, not for sale; after he wins a few.

When we got to the track- that was the first i had ever heard that the horse wasn't entered to race the weekend card yet, but hes going to enter him later in the week and if the horse did well we could have him. horse ran 4th. So then no call then he was entered the following week and ran 2nd. still no call back. oh well. right now i think we're just going to move on and just keep looking. we're not going to just stand and wait around for the horse when who knows when he'll be finished with (prob once hes injured) him. we're just going to keep looking as there were a few others we liked and every week nice ones pop up.

[farmgirl88]

Whoa Laurie -- sounds like she was listening! That's a good one.

Yup, he's been workin' for a livin'. In the past month:

5/31, beaten claiming $4000 for non winners of 2 since 11/30/08

1 mile & 70 yards, finished second

6/09, beaten claiming 4000 NW2 since 12/09/08, 1 mile & 70, fourth

6/20, beaten claiming 4000 NW2 since 12/20/08, 1 1/16th miles, fourth

6/29, claiming 5000 NW4 Lifetime, one mile, second

Today's effort brought in a paycheck of $1460. (Fourth at that level gets you about $350.) Part of that check goes to the jock, then deduct what was paid for the pony to the gate, oats in the tub, etc etc etc., and if there's any left over, you've netted a profit.


and barnfairy-

i really am trying to make sense of the snarky posts. honestly, i understand why the trainer wants to continue running the horse, but dont tell us after the fact that we made the trip to come see the horse, and made it very clear we wanted him after that race that weekend. we were ok with seeing him race that weekend but now we're pretty confident hes never going to call so we're just going to move on and keep shopping i guess. Sometimes i feel like we're getting the run around too. Its works both ways. It wouldve been nice to know before we made the trip to look at the horse that he wasnt giving him up until he won a check.

Buyers from off the track understand that your in this to make a living and we respect that- but its also a turn-off for buyers when the horse is listed for sale with no known underlying conditions and then its essentially like a wasted to trip to and view the horse.

But im still not understanding the snarkiness that seems to have been made very obvious. im not being rude and i respect everyones opinions and thank everyone for their honest opinion and insight. i just think that when buyers who go there respect a trainer and not give him ..or her...the runaround, we'd like to recieve the same in return. we're not all a bunch of wack-job horse people.

[unclewiggly]

Farmgirl, there is a thread over on Hunter Jumper about a CANTER Cutie w/ chrome for Horseshow Peeps...you should go read that.
It involves Loveable Lo a horse JessiP had for sale on CANTER go read all 9 pages and look @ his Ad on CANTER.
It is similiar to your situation but not exact. And that horse did get sold after his last race to a wonderful home in NJ.
You will see there was much bashing about over there and who the players were:yes:

[Barnfairy]

farmgirl, it has not at all been my intent to come across as snarky.

I appreciate and sympathize that you feel like you've been getting the runaround, but when you come to a racing forum, we're going to try to show you the other side of the coin. It is a fact that many trainers will list horses for sale hoping to line up a home when they are done running, which may or may not be immediately. If the trainer is trying to recoup on an investment, he may want to keep the horse running. If the horse starts winning, he may want to keep the horse running. Now you and everyone else who is reading this thread knows that. Again, I'm not at all trying to be mean or contrary. It is what it is.

Have you spoken to the CANTER volunteers about feeling mislead? Perhaps the wording of the listings could be altered. It is in everyone's best interest to have realistic expectations. As I've stated earlier, it frustrates me too when things like this happen because persons who may otherwise offer an excellent home end up walking away.

[unclewiggly]

Barnfairy the problem is when you advertise something for sale, and are offered your price, you should be obligated to sell that item Now we all understand horses aren't stone and do get chipped or broken occassionally while waiting to be sold. But you can not advertise a horse and when a bonified customer applys to purchase change the rules. And if it runs well and has conditions then take it off CANTER until it doesn't. How hard is this
Yes the seller can change their mind but then withdrawl the ad.
This is not a matter of educating someone to the practice of buying and OTTB, it just plan english...either you want to sell the horse or you don't. You can't have both ways all the time. Only occassionally does this make sense. Like a promise of a horse to a certain person AFTER it finishes all of its starts.

If you need to keep racing say so in the ad...

Snags is offered for sale @ $2999. while his race career continues, please call for his current start status...

NOT...Snags is offered for sale, he's slow and needs a new job @ $2999. please call. This leads one to believe if they call show up w/ money and a ride he can be their's then and there not after he runs and runs and runs.

[fivehorses]

I think its very common for a horse to continue to be entered and raced. I certainly did not like it when I was getting my OTTB, but thats the way it is.

also, a very appropo saying" Between the cup and the lip is many a slip".

Meaning there are people who say, oh, here is a deposit and I want that, and then never show. I think it statistically has been proven to happen 30% of the time.

I want to also add, that Canter does a very good job to keep relations with the track people positive. So, for those looking, remember, a lot of work has gone into encouraging track people to work with us. Don't burn bridges for the next person.

[fivehorses]

Farmgirl88, Barnfairy is very involved with the track, and if I can speak for her, she was not being snarky, but just stating the facts.
I know she would never want to come across that way, and really has good insight from her experience.

Hope your friend gets the horse of her dreams and it works out for her. Horse buying, no matter where it is, can be a very frustrating and time consuming experience.
good luck.

[Barnfairy]

Many thanks fivehorses. 'Greatly appreciated.

Unclewiggly, no one is changing rules here. The listed horses are for sale; some are available immediately, some will continue racing but still need a new home by the end of the season. Jessi P said it best: "It is responsible and forward thinking to get the horse advertised before it absolutely needs a new address..."

I absolutely agree with you that if a trainer intends to keep a horse running it would be helpful if the CANTER listing reflected that to avoid this type of confusion in the future. Keep in mind it is not the trainers who write the listing descriptions -- and please don't anyone misconstrue that as a dig at CANTER; thank GOD for CANTER and volunteers.

Trainers are perfectly within their rights to keep running the horses if they so wish while making arrangements for sale at a future date. Horse sales aren't like a supermarket transaction where if you put up the money you get the goods. Even horse sales which have nothing to do with the track are rarely that simple -- sellers aren't obligated to sell just because someone has offered the asking price; there are almost always conditions and terms to be worked out between buyer and seller.

[unclewiggly]

Barnfairy I beg to disagree, you can not put something, anything up for "sale", and when a legitamete offering is made suddenly change the offering because a potential race looms. Forward thinking ads can be construed as bait n switch or misleading.

99% of the time the horses place on CANTER will get sold when you show up w/ the cash. There is always that exception, as case in point Bay Miner whose connections clearly have no intentions of cutting that horse loose anytime soon while he makes a check.

But the broader picture is about advertising something then changing the rules.
It is in the best interest of any horse listed to have it clearly stated, horse is done racing....OR..horse still has condtions and will continue to race while being offered for sale, call for start status. Thats not so hard to understand. But it also may send some buyers down the road who don't want to wait and risk a horse getting hurt. Also it adds statistic numbers to the start record. I have buyers who have a cap on starts they will buy. And it risks that the horse in the photo may not actually end up being the one you go see.

This can be as simple as making a green astric for still actively racing and red to horses who are done. Not every person reads all the details.

And we can argue minutia all day, the only thing possibly accomplished is now some potential buyers have a broader picture.

[farmgirl88]

oh boy-----

im not bad mouthing the trainer at all....i just think that the entire situation was very misleading and it really just didnt sit well with me. I know the majority of the horses we took photos of the other day will continue racing until a buyer comes along. they wanted to get the horses up and listed before it was too late and i respect that but trainers shouldnt tell you that "he just has to race saturday" and then the horse races but after that no phone call and the horse is entered twice more.

it just leaves the buyers hanging out to dry and we're left waiting on word from the trainer for weeks after we could've been out looking at others.

im not bad mouthing anyone else here i respect everyones opinions but sometimes i feel that when a person who isnt directly involved in the racing world voices concern about something or isnt happy about a situation like im currently involved with; they racing folks tend to jump on "us" like we're stupid and dont know anything. i know quite a bit about the racing industry. I respect all of those involved with it, but what trainers expect of the buyers when they come to look, i expect the same form the trainers.

Being dragged around over a horse seems ludacris sometimes. we shouldve just walked away when he was raced again after the race he had just run that the trainer said he was done after that.Trainer seems like a nice guy and he means well and i didnt come here to bad mouth him...at all. Just is frustrating when (at large) trainers dont want buyers to waste their time. Even the CANTER vol. told him that we were very serious about the horse. He brought the horse back out for us and let us walk him around and graze him. We'll wait for the horse for right now but if something comes across our path or the horse is injured; we're going to move on

[Barnfairy]

Would not many real estate listings be considered the same kind of forward thinking advertisement? People put their houses up for sale while still living in them and using them all the time. We don't want to discourage trainers from listing horses with CANTER.

Take issue if you will with the wording of the CANTER listing, but don't accuse the trainer of changing rules based on that; he didn't write it. The trainer was up front in person that he planned to continue running this horse.

Making an offer does not constitute a contract. Let's say you have a horse for sale, and a person you know to be a horse abuser offers you your asking price. Are you obliged to sell to that person? No, because in fleshing out the deal your conditions are that the horse goes to a good home.

The condition in this case is that the horse is available when he is finished racing, not entirely unlike camp horses which are for sale but not available until the end of the summer.

Where there fails to be a meeting of the minds here is exactly how long he plans to keep running him. Buyers have a responsibility to ask specific questions -- especially when a condition such as this arises. Does a "paycheck" mean if the horse hits the board, or only if he comes across the line first? It doesn't sound like that was asked. Did farmgirl's friend ask "can I take this horse home after his race on [whatever date it was the trainer told you he planned to enter him]?", and get the response of "yes"?

farmgirl, no one here is jumping on you. I was excited to see Miner race well this week, hoping your friend had worked out specifics with how many more starts he will make. If your friend is indeed getting yanked around, that's not right and you need to talk to CANTER about it.

[farmgirl88]

Just and FYI to everyone:

When we went up to suffolk with the CANTER volunteers there was another horse there that we were also very interested in. She bought him instead of Bay Miner. This horse was better built and had more bone and wasbigger. trainer said he'd swap the horse fairy and square with Miner when miner won a race if we brought him home and found anything wrong with his legs.

HOORAY for rehoming 2 horses this week who needed homes!

:D:D:D