Showing a horse in too many classes - any articles on the subject?

[Daventry]

There are educational articles on nutrition, saddle fit, training, equitation...basically, everything under the sun that involves the use of an equine. But, I am looking for any articles on horse welfare at a show. Basically, an article on the appropriate number of classes to enter at a show (I know, it's a grey area!).

We talk all about preparing for a show, checklists, etc. but does NO ONE care or ever talk about what is appropriate in regards to entering classes at a show? Last year at a local show, a three year old, THREE YEAR OLD horse was entered in 18 performance classes. They did all 18 classes. :cry: Of course, the Show Committee didn't say a word because they want the entry money. The trainer didn't say a word...because the trainer does the same thing! When did we all stop educating our riders on this subject? :(:no:

Kudos to the prize list I just got in the mail that limits the number of classes you can go in. Good for them for thinking about the welfare of the horse first over making a fast buck. Their response was that some riders,...and trainers just don't know any better, so they felt it was their job to help educate them and make sure the horses are safe.

So, I have searched all over the internet and come up with nothing. Not one article on what is appropriate for the number of classes at a show! For me personally, 5-8 classes, meaning flat classes in one day is A LOT. To someone else though, maybe 12 is appropriate, or maybe 4. Maybe it's a grey area, but I'm thinking the majority of people out there would agree that 18 flat classes in one day for a three year old is TOO MUCH!

I would love to print an article on the subject in our next issue of the Welsh In Canada magazine so need some help out there. If an article is not available, I guess I will have to write one myself. If no articles exist out there on the subject, my only question is why not? :confused::no:

[Woodland]

Hello! The show committee does not own nor mange the horse JUST the show.

For pete's sake! You want the show committee to micro manage the participants are you SERIOUS? :no:

[Daventry]

No, absolutely not. It's not what I am saying at all...I was simply asking for an article on the subject!

But, now that you mention it, when a show puts out it's prize list and is holding 60 performance classes all on one day with very few restrictions on what you can enter (most are open classes, or for example, a variety of 20+ english flat classes to go in - overkill in my opinion), it opens up a can of worms and allows the uneducated riders to be able to go in 20+ classes on that day. While I'm not saying a Show Committee should be policing the issue, they certainly could manage the show schedule better and at least place a few more restrictions on their classes, ie. not offering so many open classes or dividing up the disciplines better all on one day. Crumb, most dressage shows restrict the number of classes you can do in one day, I've seen the same thing at hunter shows, as far as divisions go...and really, at most discipline specific shows. Nothing stopiing the open shows from restricting a horse to 12 classes maximum per day...but, then you get into the argument of what is appropriate for THAT horse, as compared to the next one? You honestly cannot tell me that 18 flat classes in one day for a three year old horse is OK.

[BuddyRoo]

Can't people tell when their horse is tired and then scratch if needed? Or not?

I used to do some open and AQHA/APHA shows. I would be in a halter class, showmanship, english pleasure, equitation (pattern class), western pleasure, western riding, horsemanship and trail. Sometimes I'd do a WT class with my young one English and Western before the pleasure classes. So that was 6-8 riding classes.

Total ride time? Probably less than an hour. Sometimes maybe an hour and a half. Maybe a lot of classes, but certainly wasn't overworking her for the day compared to what we did at home.

If the horse is worn out, sure. But I guess I haven't seen too many being run into the ground IF they're kept fit to begin with.

[goodhors]

Can't people tell when their horse is tired and then scratch if needed? Or not?

I used to do some open and AQHA/APHA shows. I would be in a halter class, showmanship, english pleasure, equitation (pattern class), western pleasure, western riding, horsemanship and trail. Sometimes I'd do a WT class with my young one English and Western before the pleasure classes. So that was 6-8 riding classes.

Total ride time? Probably less than an hour. Sometimes maybe an hour and a half. Maybe a lot of classes, but certainly wasn't overworking her for the day compared to what we did at home.

If the horse is worn out, sure. But I guess I haven't seen too many being run into the ground IF they're kept fit to begin with.

Pretty much what I did with my horse, back when I was showing for points. Plus we added in the Speed classes for cash and any extra points we could get towards High Point. Did sometimes make for a large number of classes, but not really as much riding time as going out Trail riding for a day. I laugh when folks tell me "how hard" they worked old Spot today, got in an HOUR AND A HALF riding on him!

My horse was fit and prepared to do her work. Usually did five MILES DOWN THE ROAD daily, WTC and gallop for wind. Then came back home to polish any item we had a problem with at the previous weekend of showing in the ring. So at least 2hours a day riding or being worked.

I showed both Saturday and Sunday, full list of classes because each days show was at a new location. We all did it back then. Horse was over 6yrs when she went into the Speed and Jumping sections, adding onto her Pleasure stuff in both Western and English catagories. She got Mondays off and so did I. At the time, I LIVED to horse show, had a terrific time doing it, LOVED winning those ribbons and trophies, because they represented my improving skills with the work horse and I put in training. When I started showing, I never even placed. Horse knew nothing when I got her as a foal. Lots of time and effort in there.

She was the horse, and a good horse was expected to be capable of doing this kind of work for you. You took care in keeping her tuned up and really fit, so she was not tired easily with that kind of work load. She was not sat on all day around the ring making her back sore. Horses DID work then for a living, she was also capable of going out and rounding up cows all day or down the trail for a 20 mile day ride with no problems after.

I do think a 3yr old is too young for that many classes, but the show committee is not set up to micro-manage how a horse is presented. Many folks do think numerous classes are not too many. It is their horse. No one complains that the Show even HAS riding classes for 2-3 yr olds! I think horses should be older when ridden, but that is me. Would be LOTS of complaints if I ran the show, didn't let young horses enter riding classes.

Telling people what they can or can't do with their horse is an exercise in futility. No harder headed bunch convinced that they are RIGHT! My old horse lived until age 35, kept on doing many horse jobs, competed until age 29, then the little kid just rode her around the fields. Stayed usable until that last year.

So I would be hard to convince that a horse could be in "too many" classes a day, if conditioned correctly.

[fordtraktor]

Any articles couldn't be accurate. There is a lot of difference in what constitutes a "class." One upper-level jumper class a day is all that I would consider appropriate; most fit horses probably wouldn't even break a sweat after 10 walk-trots.

Before I switched to jumpers, I used to do the all-around stuff with AQHA -- halter, showmanship, hunter hack, working hunter, HUS, HSE, trail, WP, Horsemanship, and Western Riding. There was usually one show Saturday and one show Sunday. We tied our horses to the trailer overnight in between.

My horse was never tired from that, as total performance time was probably 45 minutes to an hour -- an hour and a half by the time we warmed up/practiced the patterns a few times. IME, it was far less taxing than one class a day tended to be on my junior jumper at the A shows, and he always lived in a stall and a half on ten bags of shavings.

[kellyb]

What kind of classes are we talking about here?

18 over fences classes, or 18 typical open show classes? Huge difference here.

At a typical open show I am assuming you do a halter class or two. Then perhaps like most show it's english & western, so you maybe do a couple w/t english classes, then some w/t/c, then you swap to western and do the same, then maybe a trail class and sit a buck for fun.

If you subtract 2 classes (say they're halter so they don't really count) you're left with sixteen. Average class is maybe 5 minutes, so that is 80 minutes of riding. Let's call it 2 hours, since you probably spend some time warming up.

What about the lesson barn that takes a solid old schoolie and lets 2-3 kids show it in walk trot all day?

I fail to see the big deal, unless we're talking about entering every division at an A rated hunter show, which I somehow doubt we are.

Perhaps the fact that the horse is only 3 means they are over doing it. 18 classes does seem a bit on the extreme side, but I would not chastise someone for it. What do you think tries a horse more, a day of showing? A grueling cross country event? Running balls out in the KY Derby? A 25 mile endurance race? Suddenly the 18 flat classes aren't looking so bad any more :)

I don't think it's fair to put a cap on classes, because every situation is going to be different depending on the horse's condition.

[Woodland]

My barn does a lot of open shows. Last weekends show had 43 classes from halter to gaming. We had 8 horses there and we had horses in nearly every class. No 3 yr olds but a 4 yr old that was in everything his rider wanted to take him into.

Between classes the horses were rested in the shade had hay, water, electrolytes, fly spray, saddles off or loosened, hand walking/grazing as needed and they were hosed off, rubbed down and hooves packed before they were loaded to go home.

If there was a limit to the classes we would have passed. I know my job, I know my horses and my riders. We know when to say when.

I am sure there were many people who wished we had been limited to X amount of classes - it would have allowed someone else's barn/horses to win - but it was our day and we SEIZED it!

BTW they were off all day Monday they are all just fine and headed out Saturday for another all day show! :yes:

[trubandloki]

You will not find an article that says what you want because I think you have some expectations that are unrealistic.

As all the others have said, it does depend on what type of classes were are talking about here. But 18 classes is probably no big deal physically for any horse that is in any type of shape. Yeah, they may get bored of going around by the end of the day, but it certainly is not over working them.

Heck, one trail ride at the park probably uses more energy than 18 classes at the average open show.

[asb2517]

Holy crap!! 18 classes a day!! WOW! And we were just complaining a few weeks ago that all 3 ASB hunt classes were on the same day! :lol: I guess we need to toughen up!! LOL

[LockeMeadows]

This thread just reminded me to call the VHSA office.

Last year at our county fair, we had a Hunter show. One kid went in 21 classes from Halter/Showmanship (no big deal) to 5 Hunter Divisions (2 jumping/1 hack class). Her poor pony was dead on its hooves by the end of the show. She wanted High-point of the day and instead of winning a few classes, she placed in the middle in a bunch of classes. This was a 4-Her that was also earning 4-H points. The kid did not end up getting high-point and her mother was a little more than up-set. According to the rules, she was allowed to enter all these classes. I felt bad for the pony, but there was nothing I could do because she wasn't "breaking" any rules per se.

This year, I'm going to put a cap on the number of classes, but need to make sure the VHSA is OK with that.

[trubandloki]

I do not think I have ever been at a show where I qualify for 21 classes. :eek:

[Nes]

At my old barn the BO had a rule at her schooling shows that you couldn't show your horse in more then 4 classes (unless you begged and had a good excuse). These were dressage shows.

I think it was an appropriate and good rule and unfortunatly necessary when you're dealing with school horses coming in with 2 or 3 kids to ride them.

[Hunter Mom]

I believe a lot depends on the horse and what they're doing. There is a big difference between a horse doing 3' + courses and one doing 18" crossrails. Some horses are also just "more sound" than others. My girl can do multiple classes/lessons/courses in a day and be none the worse for wear. Another horse in our barn can't do more than 2 or 3 classes total in a day without being sore.

Footing also has a lot to do with it. Showing at a hunter show with good footing is quite different than some of the shows where it isn't quite so nice. However, doing a WP class is much less strenuous than doing an upper level jumper course. It is quite normal for breed horses to do many classes in a day – but then you figure no more than 10 or 15 minutes of ring time for each class. I’d hope most horses could be able to do at least an hour of good flat work.
I think we have to evaluate our situations individually and see what we can reasonably do.

[Ajierene]

I was at the Cecil County Fair one year and this little girl was in the first classes of the day on her fancy Welsh Pony - with her trainer. This show is mostly populated by backyard kids and 4H kids on borrowed or backyard ponies, so this girl stood out.

She started the day in all the green/short stirrup classes. She was in the entire division of each. Then she went on to the long stirrup, pleasure, open equitation, green hunter, open hunter, etc. She was in every division and she had a very well trained pony and was a decent rider.

She stopped pinning in the afternoon, at first, when she moved up in divisions. Her mom got upset and had a 'sit down' with the judge during lunch about how her kid was pinning first in all the earlier classes, why wasn't she pinning in these and before this, the mom was being very vocal on the sidelines. She had a one-way conversation with me about how her kid and pony should pin first in everything.

She started pinning first again. I was rather upset by this, but had no real dog in the fight since I was not showing and was just there supporting my barn. But come on -first of all, most of these kids, it is the only show they get to all year and besides, how can you say your horse is green and an open hunter? This pony was obviously not in her first year of showing. I just thought that was so unfair.

[theoldgreymare]

I was at the Cecil County Fair one year and this little girl was in the first classes of the day on her fancy Welsh Pony - with her trainer. This show is mostly populated by backyard kids and 4H kids on borrowed or backyard ponies, so this girl stood out.

She started the day in all the green/short stirrup classes. She was in the entire division of each. Then she went on to the long stirrup, pleasure, open equitation, green hunter, open hunter, etc. She was in every division and she had a very well trained pony and was a decent rider.

She stopped pinning in the afternoon, at first, when she moved up in divisions. Her mom got upset and had a 'sit down' with the judge during lunch about how her kid was pinning first in all the earlier classes, why wasn't she pinning in these and before this, the mom was being very vocal on the sidelines. She had a one-way conversation with me about how her kid and pony should pin first in everything.

She started pinning first again. I was rather upset by this, but had no real dog in the fight since I was not showing and was just there supporting my barn. But come on -first of all, most of these kids, it is the only show they get to all year and besides, how can you say your horse is green and an open hunter? This pony was obviously not in her first year of showing. I just thought that was so unfair.

Unless the prizelists clarifies what "green" constitutes she was within her rights if there were no restrictions on cross entering.. Not saying it is right but I know where you are coming from. Had a very beginner kid in a beginner EQ division one year and one trainer kept sticking her green ponies with very good riders in that division for ring time. The prizelist did not state what constituted "beginner" and the rule book did not cover it as it is an unrecognized division so she could technically get away with it. Ethically, she should know better.

Do they not have stewards at County Fair shows? Mom should never have been able to sit down and have a chat with the judge.

As to showing in too many classes........I get a chuckle out of the trainers that have the same pony in five divisions a show and then scratch their head and wonder why the pony starts stopping or exhibiting some other sour behavior.

[trubandloki]

She started the day in all the green/short stirrup classes. She was in the entire division of each. Then she went on to the long stirrup, pleasure, open equitation, green hunter, open hunter, etc. She was in every division and she had a very well trained pony and was a decent rider.



See, I do not get this. Most shows have rules where if you do the certain classes you can not do other classes, etc.