Why so hostile to kids? [Archive]

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:35 PM

Because in addition to 1) a poorly behaved child (which all of us were, even once!) being a PITA, and 2) Parents who go ballistic/defensive if anyone implies their kid needs correction, 3) Some parents don't seem to provide that in a way that's effective because they think their kid is quite the gift to all.

I understand that we all want to think our kids, horses, and parenting styles are all tippy-top. Perhaps it also comes from parents taking other peoples' disapproval of their kids really personally as if it's an indictment of their quality as people.

Really, kids aren't perfect at all times. Parents aren't perfect at all times. So if someone else disciplines your kid in a way you don't like, cut them some slack. They aren't perfect either. If you do rock as a parent, your kid will have the solid psychological base from which to recover.

On the horse side of things. I teach my horses "the rules" and to be letter perfect for other people precisely so that they don't have to be corrected by someone else who might not do it the way I want. I don't want others training my horse, just as perhaps some parents don't want other people training their kids. So I explain to other people: "This horse will do what you want. If he doesn't, let me know and I'll fix it." If parents to that with other people, perhaps those guys will be relieved of their frustration and the pressure to rein in the kid because they think the parent cannot or will not. All anyone wants is to know that they can get their needs met if and when they ask. If you have a kid, don't make that hard for the other guy.

Lady Counselor

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:35 PM

When the kid (or yearling) isn't yours, it's hard to discipline them without getting chewed out for it.

Having your de-stress time ruined by someone's rank, unhandled child with no manners tends to produce a bit of hostility.

:lol:
"rank, unhandled child"
Classic!

harveyhorses

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:38 PM

Part of my gripe is that as a female, I am EXPECTED to want to deal with (look out for, take care of etc.) other peoples offspring. Hey could you change juinors diaper??
I have a step-daughter, was married when she was 5, she is 29 now and we are very very close. My DH passed away 10 years ago. She still maintains I have the maternal instinct of a gnat. She is right, but I love children as individuals not 'children'.

BuddyRoo

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:39 PM

I'm not "hostile" about it...but I will say that when it comes to horses, I have very low tolerance for kids who cannot/will not follow rules, do not respect authority and have parents who consider a barn a day care.

To me it's kind of like going to a fancy restaurant for dinner only to be seated next to a 2 YO monster who is throwing food and tantrums. It kind of ruins the experience that I'm paying for.

Horse time is MY time. I work very hard to have the $$ to have horses. The horse stuff is my only real hobby because it's all I have time for. When I'm on MY time I don't want to be babysitting or constantly worried that some kid is going to get hurt because he/she is not being appropriately monitored by his/her PARENT.

I totally sympathize with the women I know who have kids and not a lot of daycare options--yet want to ride. But I've boarded places where there were young kids who knew the rules and they were fine--FUN to be around and involve in the activities. It's just the yucky ones I don't like.

To me, it's a tremendous liability. Even though I have very well behaved horses, I'd prefer not to feel like I have to keep one eye on a loose kid at all times. As the oldest of several kids, I cannot HELP but be on constant lookout for the kids around me. Even if they aren't mine. It's distracting and I don't like it.

Lori B

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:43 PM

So in many of these posts, the hostility, when present, is to a great extent directed at the parents of the 'unhandled, rank' children.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:48 PM

I think there are also allot of horse women (and men) who have never had children. Either through their own choice or because of other circumstances. They don't understand that you can't control children!

You surely can control children. My parents would have beat the crap out of me if I behaved in ANY way improperly in public. There is no excuse for bad manners, regardless of if its a kid, dog, or horse.

Arizona DQ

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:52 PM

So in many of these posts, the hostility, when present, is to a great extent directed at the parents of the 'unhandled, rank' children.

and I think this is a place to vent our frustrations over those unruly kids.

I do not have anything against kids (heck, I was one once :eek: ), but as others have said, we all value our horse time and do not want it spoiled by someone's unwanted, untrained, unsocialized brats!:mad:

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:52 PM

Nes

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:53 PM

Yeah my son is 13 months & into EVERYTHING right now. I can't control him because he doesn't have the capacity to understand NO yet (although every now and again it does get through). This is also why I NEVER bring him to the barn unless I have extra hands to hold him down!

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:57 PM

You surely can control children. My parents would have beat the crap out of me if I behaved in ANY way improperly in public. There is no excuse for bad manners, regardless of if its a kid, dog, or horse.

Amen, Pirateer!

My father likes to tell a story about when we were all small. My parents had six children, five of which were boys. Talk about a handful!

We were out at an adult, sit down restaurant. My father was on one end of the table, my mother on the other. That was so if one of us forgot our manners, there was always a parent close at hand to "remind" us. ;)

We'd finished our meal and were getting ready to go, when a couple approached my father. The husband said, "That was quite impressive! I've never seen a group of such well behaved children. Ours have to be left home when we come out to eat."

My father looked him in the eye and said, "Mister, they weren't born well behaved. If your kids are brats, it's your own fault." :lol:

I love my parents dearly because they were parents, and not trying to be our "friends".

Invested1

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:58 PM

I have a step-daughter, was married when she was 5, she is 29 now

:lol:
I had to read that sentence about 3 times before I got it.

At first, I read it that your step-daughter was married when she was 5! :eek:
:lol:

findeight

Jun. 11, 2009, 12:59 PM

Unfortunately, it is we, the adult boarders and clients in the barns and exhibitors at the shows who are expected to be "firm and fair" with other peoples children who are in our way, leave their crap all over for the tack fairy to clean, screaming their heads off or fighting in packs when we try to enjoy our barn/show time.

Don't think anybody blames the kids but we who deal with them just to survive get to resent the time spent trying to just enjoy that time with the horse.

Kids that behave well cause no problems, we usually vent about problems on the board and offer solutions. There are plenty of good kids but there is no reason to start threads about them and they do not require a solution.

Now...as far as kids who post, don't see much hostility except to textspeak and spelling/grammer so bad we cannot figure out what they are asking about. And, of course, arguing with an offered opinion...but adults do that too.

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:01 PM

Trixie

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:04 PM

Because unsupervised children are an enormous, ENORMOUS liability.

Because many parents seem to have entitlement issues about their children, and don't realize that horses are dangerous.

Because I don't want anyone to get hurt, and I don't want my liability insurance to go up.

Because it is my time, my hobby, my horse, and MY FINANCES - all of these things are threatened when people are unruly.

I’ve had parents bring their children to my (private) farm and demand that I let their spawn run around the grounds and barns and that I should let them ride. I’ve had them approach me at shows and ask the same thing. I’ve never seen such entitlement anywhere before, but it’s becoming more and more prevalent. And in the case of the one that showed up on my farm, they refused to leave, insisting “it would be so good for the children.”

I don’t mind a well-behaved child. I don’t even mind sharing my animals with them if they’re respectful. But many are not, and it’s not my responsibility.

trubandloki

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:05 PM

My father looked him in the eye and said, "Mister, they weren't born well behaved. If your kids are brats, it's your own fault." :lol:

I love my parents dearly because they were parents, and not trying to be our "friends".

I love it.

Go Arabhorse's dad!

I was raised the same way, out in public I better behave - or else! Whatever or else was I was never sure but I was sure that I did not want to know.

At horse functions the biggest issue with ill behaved kids is safety. I really do not want to get sued because some parent was not willing to supervise their kid well enough and it walked under my horse as my horse kicked at a fly.

eventchic33

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:06 PM

You surely can control children. My parents would have beat the crap out of me if I behaved in ANY way improperly in public. There is no excuse for bad manners, regardless of if its a kid, dog, or horse.

Absolutely true and that goes for my kids dog and horse today.

This is coming from a parent of a very hard to handle/semi uncontrollable ADD/ADHD bi-polar child. With me or in public he is fine, at school where the teachers literally can't punish anymore than sending him to the office he is a holy terror and one of those kids you would love to beat. He gets in plenty of trouble for every transgression, BUT it doesn't do me much good when it can't be backed up by the teachers(instant and immediate punishment).

Please note that I in no way,shape or form excuse his bad behavior in school simply that he has learned from todays society that he can get away with it, because NO ONE but the parent will do anything about it.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:07 PM

And by the way. Of course children can be controlled... to the same extent that horses can. If you think your kids get some kind of "get out of jail free" card for being mentally more complicated than horses, you probably don't train horses very well either.

You know, it isn't that at all.

It's the assumption that a kid who misbehaves is deserving of a beating (or verbal abuse). If you were leading your horse and he steps ahead of you, does that automatically warrant a beating? Or do you start mild and go from there?

Ask anyone who has good kids- sometimes they misbehave. The difference between the good kids and the bad kids is how they react when they get the mild reminder- but you'll never know that if you start right off yelling and swearing.

With your horse, you would remind him with a gentle tug or verbal reprimand, and if he responds to that you have no need to escalate. Kids are the same way.

equineartworks

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:08 PM

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:08 PM

Please explain the difference to me. If my horse bites, pushes at me, crowds my space, or does other unacceptable behavior, I am expected - for safety reasons, if nothing else! because I am at a boarding barn - to discipline my horse appropriately. So, if a child is behaving inappropriately - why isn't it acceptable to assume the child should be appropriately disciplined? If the child is old enough to wander off on their own, they're old enough to know the meaning of the word "NO." And if they are unable to comprehend that - fine - but then, don't bring that child to places where such behavior is unacceptable.

Chester's Mom

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:08 PM

I think there are also allot of horse women (and men) who have never had children. Either through their own choice or because of other circumstances. They don't understand that you can't control children!

Nope, not it. Heck I have GRANDCHILDREN... You can control them by leaving them home (as you note later in the thread that you do). Others should do the same. Just this past weekend I was spoken to harshly by someone whose children were not only endangering our animals, they were endangering THEMSELVES. Yet somehow it is NOT ok that they be corrected by anyone. Cuz the adult with them certainly wasn't doing it.... :mad:

JollyBadger

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:09 PM

It's not so much about kids. . .in the same way that I don't blame dogs for their bad behavior, but rather the people who are responsible for teaching them what is and isn't acceptable behavior. In this case. . .the parents.

I know I'll probably get reamed for even making that comparison. . .but, it will probably be by the same types of parents who expect the rest of the barn to look out for their unruly child while they go riding, and then become irate when it's suggested that their child is anything but angelic and no longer welcome at the barn.

Perhaps some on this board are fortunate enough to board their horses and attend shows where children are well-mannered and/or well-supervised by a responsible adult at all times. Lucky you.

Those of us who are not so fortunate as to board in such a perfect harmony of horses, children, rainbows and butterflies. . .we tend to be less tolerant when we are trying to groom or work with a horse, and some random child skids through the barn on their sneaker-skates, wants to play "monkey-vines" on the cross ties, climbs and swings on the hitching rail as though it's a jungle gym, or jumps off the mounting block over and over and over and over while their mom is out riding in the arena or on trail or just chatting with other boarders in another aisle.

Trixie

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:11 PM

If you can't control your children, then GO AWAY.

Seriously, go home. Take your child home until you can control it.

It's not everyone else's problem.

And yes, for the record, you CAN control them.

Because I simply would not allow it to happen...period. As a parent we have the responsibility to make sure that our kids not only behave as they should but also to LEAVE with them when they don't.

:yes:

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:12 PM

Naw, Jolly. Just as long as you don't suggest SSS for unruly children, the way we do for vicious, uncontrollable dogs. ;)

Jasmine

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:18 PM

I actually got complimented at a restaurant last week. My 2 year old human child was throwing a fit. So he and I went to the car while Daddy ate. Then Daddy watched him at the car while I ate.

A grandmotherly type came and sat with me while I finished my (now cold) dinner. She said more people should be aware that their evening might not be perfect if their kid doesn't behave, and that they should remove the monster before he ruins other diners' evenings.

(FWIW, by dessert, the kidlet had calmed down enough to rejoin polite society. The three of us enjoyed our chocolate cake together, and he was quite well-behaved for the rest of the night.)

AnotherRound

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:19 PM

My vitriol (which I think is what you meant rather than virulent) is for the parents of the unruly children. I have raised mine, and they did not act out in public - or they did not get to be in public, and I stuck to that. My time at the barn with horses is my adult time, and no matter where I am, I do not have to have my boundaries violated by inept and disrespectful ADULT parents! Nor do I have to accept "your" or another adult's poor parenting, shaming manner, inability to parent, or lack of respect for my space and time and safety of myself and my animals. that's what pisses me off about badly behaved kids. If the parents are neglecting to control them, they don't belong in public, the parents nor the kids.

Come Shine

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:20 PM

I think people have such strong reactions to kids because they know how quickly things can turn south around a horse. At some basic level, people (even if they don't like kids) don't want a child to get hurt.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:22 PM

And if they are unable to comprehend that - fine - but then, don't bring that child to places where such behavior is unacceptable.

You can't teach them to behave in different environments if you never take them there and teach them what is and isn't acceptible.

You don't expect a puppy to know everything a trained adult dog will know. You don't expect a foal to be perfectly trained. Kids are the same way.

You take them out, teach them what is and isn't appropriate, but in the meantime sometimes maybe a too loud word will pop out in the nice restaurant, or a few steps of running will occur at the barn. Like with horses, repetition is key. You find after a while that they figure out how to use quiet voices at the restaurant, and walk at the barn.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:23 PM

At the barn, I'm continually complimented for my child. He works his ass off; he comes with me early to feed, he hauls jumps and helps set courses, he saddles ponies for beginners, he hauls water out to the troughs, he turns in/out, he offers advice when asked to riders on new horses, and he plays with the kids who aren't riding so parents can watch their students. He's polite, clever, and a delight to be around. The gushing compliments are craaaaazy.

And then he goes to school, mouths off to his teachers, gets detention, sometimes gets sent home from school, refuses to do his homework, and fails his classes. ('Course, he aces his tests and qualifies for advanced classes. Heh.)

Kids are a little more complex than horses. Believe me. :lol: If one of you can provide some magic solutions, please PM me. I'm very interested. ;)

BlueEyedSorrel

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:24 PM

I am very lucky that my barn has fairly strict rules for the barn kids, enforced by the trainer and the BO. Consequently, I personally have few problems with unsupervised kids and find most of the barn kiddies fun to have around.

To me, it's an issue of responsibility. I choose to have horses, and therefore it is my responsibility to make sure my mares are fed, healthy, get enough exercise that they're not pinging off the barn walls, are socialized not to act like rank mustangs and are trained to do a job. If I have a behavior problem I can't handle myself, I need to pay a professional trainer to fix it and take lessons so I know how to keep it from happening again, not expect everyone else in the barn to tolerate the disruption my horse causes. If I have my horse out in public and she behaves in a way that makes her a danger to others in the area, it's my job to say to "OK, her brain is fried, that's enough for today" and leave. It's also my job to not put my horse in situations she doesn't have the skills to handle and to recognize the "distant early warnings" of impending meltdown and then act to keep things from escalating. And, I certainly can't excuse my horse's wild behavior by saying, "well, she's just being a horse."

Similarly, if someone chooses to have children, they are responsible for the physical well-being, socialization, education and behavior of the kid. They are responsible for not putting the kid in a situation he isn't ready to handle (ie unsupervised toddler at a barn). They are responsible for removing the kid if he has a tantrum or is behaving obnoxiously. It is inappropriate to expect others to supervise the kid or tolerate the kid "just being a child."

I am at the barn for my own enjoyment and stress relief, and like most of us on COTH, I pay a good deal of $$$ for my recreation. If the barn has a rank horse, as a boarder I am not responsible for teaching the beast manners. Likewise, I am not responsible for supervising ill-behaved children at the barn.

BES

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:24 PM

I think there are also allot of horse women (and men) who have never had children. Either through their own choice or because of other circumstances. They don't understand that you can't control children!

Are you saying children cannot be controlled? Maybe I should give you my parents' number and you can get their story - father with a career, mother as half housewife/half medical secretary, and they were able to control and raise three respect, functioning kids; one who's entering med school, one who is in health management (me), and one who is entering his first year of college.

Trust me, y'all, it can be done.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:26 PM

The funny thing about anecdotal evidence - including my own - is that it means exactly dick in the real world.

Every kid is different, just like every horse. Perhaps you can beat one into submission, perhaps you can trick one into doing what you want. Sometimes, you find one you have to compromise with, or you find one you have to coerce. With kids, add another five layers of cerebral bullcrap that you don't have with horses.

All these anecdotes are interesting, but do little more than prove how different these situations are. :)

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:27 PM

Are you saying children cannot be controlled? Maybe I should give you my parents' number and you can get their story - father with a career, mother as half housewife/half medical secretary, and they were able to control and raise three respect, functioning kids; one who's entering med school, one who is in health management (me), and one who is entering his first year of college.

Trust me, y'all, it can be done.

Yet, you already admitted to killing a tree and ending up in the principal's office ;)

Teaching a child to be respectful and well-behaved isn't controlling, it's teaching. The kid will make mistakes along the way.

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:27 PM

Kids, students and horses like me for the same reason. I'm clear and reasonable about what I'd like from them, I try to take into account what they want, and I think of everything as a negotiation.

So the systematic kind of escalation for the pushy yearling I might be leading is the same thing I do for kids, or really anyone of any age. In the end, kids dig me because (they say) I treat them like adults. Of course that comes with the caveat that I don't ask them to do things they can't at their age-- delay gratification too long, see through a too-complicated chain of cause and effect, read my mind and know up front what's going to get me really mad, really fast.

Some of the problem might also have two more sources:

1) The tired, busy mom who wants her time at the barn to be an escape from life's pressures just as much as the kidless peeps want that sanctity, too. Sooner or later, these moms learn that their happier putting in the time to teaching their kids how to behave in the specialized and dangerous environment of a stable. The smart ones who must bring their kids try to find a way to make sure the kid is entertained while she's there. One mom has her kids watch movies on a laptop in the car. She also tries to ride when the BO's kids of similar ages are around and can play.

2) Many people are new to riding and really don't foresee the disasters that begin with a carrot held up to an unfamiliar horse by a little, tender hand. When families were either "in" or "out" of horses for generations and even lived on farms, the skill set needed for staying safe were more obvious to parents. I can't tell you how many times I have stopped to explain to newbies of any age the various options for walking around the back of a horse. I think it's my job as part of the "village" to try to keep people from getting hurt with five minutes of help.

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:29 PM

They don't understand that you can't control children!

Uh..excuse me but OH YES YOU CAN.
I don't like most children although I had two of my own but it's the Parent's fault. I could just slap the Parent when their child is doing something annoying to others and the Parent just looks around smiling to see if everyone is appreciating just how darling their child is.
They should wake up!! Others don't think your little monster is the cute, smart, most perfect child.
I despise people bringing their kids here but if they do and they are doing something they shouldn't and the parents don't stop it I do. If they don't like it then take the little "darlings" home.
With Parent/s watching I have had to get on kids for banging on the coop of a setting hen, chasing horses, offering horse a treat and then jumping in their face hollering BOOO! Kicking barn cat, picking at Amazon Parrot and it just goes on and on. Often the Parent will smile and say "he/she just isn't afraid of ANYTHING."
People find out how many animals we have and first thing I hear is "we need to bring little Bozo, and Suzie and....down to see the animals. They'll love it." I smile and just look at them.
This "ain't" no petting zoo.
Guess there are good kids out there but I haven't come up on any in years...maybe just my luck.

oldenmare

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:29 PM

At my trainer's barn, the kids are horrid brats and the parents are worse. Very competitive amongst the parents which only exacerbates the situation with the kids.

I would gladly love to beat the parents with a rubber hose - repeatedly. Unfortunately, not an option. Trainer HAS spoken to them (individually and as a group) to explain behaviour is unacceptable - unfortuntately, there is a lot she doesn't see, although us regulars and the boarders are speaking up with much greater frequency now....

The two worst offenders would give ANYTHING to ride my horse (beg on a regular basis and NOW the parents are asking, too). I no longer explain that my horse is NOT a children's mount (she's a hot red hunk of pure dynamite) - I just say "No" and give them "the look". Thankfully, I keep her at home so I don't have to worry about unauthorized rides (for which trainer would kill them for as well).

HOWEVER - there are days I'd really like to see the kids get spun off her - just so they and their parents would get over their obnoxious entitled selves..... dumba$$e$ (parents) even asked the trainer to speak to me about letting their brats from he!! ride my mare - trainer told them they were out of line and furthermore, that if the horse didn't kill them, I would. Have I mentioned that I love my trainer!!! ;)

So - I do have hostility towards them - but they have EARNED that hostility (and its a hostility that is equally shared with their parents - but honestly, kids are getting old enough to know better).

And I agree wholeheartedly that this is MY hobby/lifestyle - and because this is where all my money goes, I do wish to be unharassed when over for my lesson, clinic or show. Mothers/children following me to my trailer after I've said "NO" - only create a hostile situation.

Now, the couple of kids at the barn that do behave well - they are treated likewise with respect and consideration. And, no, they are not allowed to ride my mare, either, but they only asked once and accepted "no" as an answer.....

LuvMyTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:31 PM

What about children behaving inappropriately WITH horses, not just around them?

I board at a barn that was, until recently, unofficially an "adults only" barn--one of the reasons I chose it.

In the last few months, the owners have taken in several child/teenage boarders in order to fill stalls.

OMG. They are like HELLIONS on their horses. No arena etiquette to speak of--one of them literally set up a jump in the middle of the 20-meter circle I was riding. Don't call out direction changes when riding in groups. They run the legs off their horses, show off to each other, bring out friends and boyfriends and throw them up on the horses, etc etc.

This is a very, very low-key barn with no in-house trainer and very little supervision--the kids are basically free to do what they want. It makes me crazy. I have complained about dangerous/reckless riding several times already.

Does this make me hate children? NO, but it makes me a little hostile towards this particular group of brats.

Thank god I'm moving at the end of the month.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:32 PM

I don't have children. That is by choice, a very conscious well thought out choice.
I don't have them because I really don't want to deal with them. I like them, my niece (she's 5) is the greatest thing since dirt. I can play with her all day. But when I don't want to, I don't have to. I can make other plans without having to consider her, child care, other child issues etc.
So what makes people think that I want to deal with their children running amok in the barn, at a horse show or whereever else?
Just like a puppy, foal, whatever, desensitize them, teach them their manners, then expect them to behave. Don't go somewhere and turn them loose expecting others to do your job for you so you can get your relax time at the barn. We are there for that too, that's why we don't have any kids of our own or those that do didn't bring theirs. What makes you think we want to deal with yours?

that said, I also cannot stand the way some of these kids talk to their parents or other adults at shows, barns, Walmart etc. If I had ever done that it would have been a cold day before my butt ever saw a saddle again.

Saidapal

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:33 PM

I think many who post their opinions about children (me included) and being hostile here in writing are venting. I would never go after a child in real life. Roll my eyes, swear under my breathe, say thank God it's you and not me, yes. Be rude or ugly to a child directly...never (unless I caught you stealing from me, and I would NOT be abusive to the child, but I would turn you little butt in).

Just like I hate going to the grocery store after work. There is ALWAYS a screaming kid, or two, making God awful noise. But I also understand the kids are tired and want to go home and Mom is trying to squeeze in a chore.

There was a woman who used to board where I did who I absolutely HATED seeing drive up. She brought her two kids and from the time they exited the car until they (or I) left she was constantly screaming at them. You could literally follow them around the barn by her screaming. I used to feel sorry for those two kids, but in my defense, after spending a day at work I went to the barn to wind down and enjoy my horse. I did NOT go to the barn to listen you scream like a banshee. That is MY time, and to be angry at me because I don't want to listen to you scream, or your kids scream, or have to be responsible for them because MOM is nowhere in sight is just plain wrong.

Too many people think just because they love little Johnny, everybody should love little Johnny. WRONG! Little Johnny is your responsibility, not mine. He's the light in your life, not mine. There have been few children I've met who are what I would consider endearing. The ones I DID think were endearing were well behaved little rascals who I LOVED to see coming and enjoyed their antics. There is a big difference between being a child and doing child things, to being a royal, dyed in the wool obnoxious pain the ass.

It has been my experience most parents don't want to see their prodigy as the later. Not MY Little Johnny.....

And what's up with people letting their kids run around restaurants? Do you really think I think it's cute that little Johnny is making the rounds screaming his head off? Even if they just come over and smile I wish they would go away, because then YOU - the PARENT- are putting me in a position where I have to be NICE to the little brat just so I don't hurt his feelings. So you smile at the brat, they smile back, you look away, they dance so they'll get your attention, you smile again - grudgingly which the kid doesn't get, and on and on it goes while MOMMY and DADDY have a nice quiet meal. Or the movies....I paid HOW MUCH to listen to your kid scream throughout the whole, flippin movie?

Jeez, I didn't know I had all that HOSTILITY in me.......(deep breathe) I feel better now.

Ghazzu

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:34 PM

They don't understand that you can't control children!

BS.
If they can't be controlled, they ought not to be allowed out loose.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:35 PM

You take them out, teach them what is and isn't appropriate, but in the meantime sometimes maybe a too loud word will pop out in the nice restaurant, or a few steps of running will occur at the barn. Like with horses, repetition is key. You find after a while that they figure out how to use quiet voices at the restaurant, and walk at the barn.

Yes, but other patrons of barns/restaurants shouldn't be punished while you teach the little sh$ts how to play nice.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:36 PM

Yet, you already admitted to killing a tree and ending up in the principal's office ;)

Teaching a child to be respectful and well-behaved isn't controlling, it's teaching. The kid will make mistakes along the way.

Yeah, and guess what? My parents took the responsibility to lecture me AFTER I was already lectured by the principal, her assistant, AND the recess monitor. They let me know why it was wrong, and why I wasn't getting desert for the next three days.

Trust me, I never broke another tree ever again. Scout's honor.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:39 PM

Yes, but other patrons of barns/restaurants shouldn't be punished while you teach the little sh$ts how to play nice.

See, that's exactly the thing- those little sh$ts are people just like you and have a right to be there, learning how to navigate the world. Nobody ever promised you a child-free world :)

Children are a part of our society, like it or not.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:39 PM

Yeah, and guess what? My parents took the responsibility to lecture me AFTER I was already lectured by the principal, her assistant, AND the recess monitor. They let me know why it was wrong, and why I wasn't getting desert for the next three days.

I think the point is that having a stellar upbringing didn't stop you from screwing up. It kept you from becoming a repeat offender, but you still did it in the first place.

Some people have the unrealistic expectation that if a child is being raised right, whether it's through guilt or the Almighty Paddle, they'll never screw up. That's just unreasonable.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:40 PM

Yeah, and guess what? My parents took the responsibility to lecture me AFTER I was already lectured by the principal, her assistant, AND the recess monitor. They let me know why it was wrong, and why I wasn't getting desert for the next three days.

Trust me, I never broke another tree ever again. Scout's honor.

Of course. But if you listen to people here, the fact that you weren't perfectly behaved from birth means nobody should have let you out of the house.

If your parents had been able to control you, it never would have happened. Instead, they had to let you make mistakes and learn from them. And look how you turned out ;)

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:43 PM

Another cause-- jealousy and bullying?

Let me be clear: I'm of the childless by choice, so these causes could apply to me.

Perhaps the childless are jealous of the enormous veneration women get for being moms. If the mom said "I can't stay late at work because my kid has X event I must attend" people might not dig it and relegate her to the "mommy track." If I said "I can't, my 1,300# son/pro athlete has been in a house the size of a phone both for the past 20 hours and I have to go do something with him," that absolutely cuts no ice. At the end of the day, I'm on something worse than the mommy track.

Or perhaps this is venting and bullying. I agree that the fault and therefore blame lies with the parent. But isn't it easier to rant here or even scare the pants of a kid than to get up in the adult parent's grill? Can you imagine laying out a dad for his poor parenting skills? And since we have discussed the veneration of mothers, can you imagine the names you'd be called for questioning her?

Really, the childless are put in a tough position by other people's kids, especially when *someone* needs to keep them out of harm's way.

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:44 PM

Some people have the unrealistic expectation that if a child is being raised right, whether it's through guilt or the Almighty Paddle, they'll never screw up. That's just unreasonable.

Funny, but you seem to be the only one saying that.

Kids are expected to be kids. However, what I don't have to expect is to deal with untrained, undisciplined hellions. There's a world of difference between the two.

I'm surrounded by children at my trainer's barn. They are ALL well behaved, even the 5 and 6 y/os. Why? Because my trainer doesn't ALLOW misbehaved, bratty children at her barn. If they act up or don't listen, their lesson money is refunded, and the parents are told to keep them at home until they can learn to behave.

Kids playing, screaming, getting into mischief; that's all to be expected. Misbehaving, deliberately putting themselves in harm's way, and generally acting like an untrained Neanderthal should NOT be expected nor allowed.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:45 PM

I think the point is that having a stellar upbringing didn't stop you from screwing up. It kept you from becoming a repeat offender, but you still did it in the first place.

Some people have the unrealistic expectation that if a child is being raised right, whether it's through guilt or the Almighty Paddle, they'll never screw up. That's just unreasonable.

I don't think anyone here has mentioned or said that children can be controlled or delegated to 100% of the time, 24/7, 365 days of year.

To me, 'controlling' does not mean strictly walking by the kid at all hours, telling them what foot to put in front of the other... so I guess my definition resembles Ambrey's. But I still stand that you can absolutely control your kids, especially if you're with them, and even if you're not.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:47 PM

Of course. But if you listen to people here, the fact that you weren't perfectly behaved from birth means nobody should have let you out of the house.

If your parents had been able to control you, it never would have happened. Instead, they had to let you make mistakes and learn from them. And look how you turned out ;)

Yes, if you could point that out where someone said those words... ;)

I think that if you're taking such a literal interpretation of people's opinions on this thread, you need to slow down and think more.

When I read "I don't yell at my kids, I don't spank my kids, I don't abuse my kids..." is my reaction "Oh my goodness, you don't discipline your kids at all. They must be raging, uncivilized monsters!"?

Nah.

springer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:47 PM

trubandloki

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:49 PM

Bogey2

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:49 PM

wow, I am childless by choice...but I don't feel all mean towards kids. I usually reserve that for the parent who has their head up their ass when it comes to keeping the kid from being a pain in the ass.
I also don't allow misbehaving at the barn and because of that I have raised some very wonderful horse kids:winkgrin:
I also don't have child owners and the lesson kids only ride at certain times...the boarders don't have to see the kids when they ride.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:50 PM

Kids playing, screaming, getting into mischief; that's all to be expected. Misbehaving, deliberately putting themselves in harm's way, and generally acting like an untrained Neanderthal should NOT be expected nor allowed.

I was perceiving that the two were being lumped into the same category, that playing and getting into mischief WAS extreme misbehavior and something that no thinking person should have to tolerate. The reality is that kids sometimes misbehave, even with the best of parents. It's part of being little humans.

But I was clearly misunderstanding the point of all these vents. Apparently these are all repeat offenders, and I agree, those situations are unreasonable. I rarely have to deal with those situations at the barn, because I put my foot down on other people's kids, and they steer clear of me. :) Or shape up. Either one.

MSP

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:51 PM

OP, all you did was open up a thread for the child haters to spew their venom some more.

I for one am sick to death of judgmental looks in public and nasty post on the COTH about kids.

Every one knows how to rasie your child better than you do! :rolleyes:

Trixie

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:51 PM

(I was trying to recall one of those "hip" new kids names, but couldn't think of one at the moment as it always seems to be THOSE kids who are the biggest brats)

http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/index.html

Start here.

EqTrainer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:53 PM

Kids can be controlled. The problem is, IMO, that parent's overthink parenting, just as people overthink training their horse. And... lots of kids could use a good spanking. Yes, I said it and yes, I have done it. My son went thru a phase where I found my hand on his rear end repeatedly. He is now 9 and an absolute pleasure to be around. My daughter has never needed the hand on the hinie, she watched her brother get spanked enough times to know she doesn't want that to happen to HER...

Everyone wants the kid that you can just explain things to.. or reason with. Not everyone gets that kid. It sucks and it's hard to face that you have a kid who needs more consistent discipline than others do. I never dreamed I'd be spanking anyone when I was pregnant. But there I was..

I have a friend whose son I cannot stand to be around. He needs some of the back of someone's hand in a major way. He dominates his mother at 3 years old and orders her around and *everything* that comes out of his mouth is in the whining tone. Of course this is her fault and her husband fault... they are always trying to figure out what to do "for him". I think that is the wrong attitude, it's what to do ABOUT him that is in question. Needless to say he is not welcome in my barn.

So yes, even people who have kids see that some truly are obnoxious, some are kept in line, some are genuinely nice little people.. funny, it sounds like adults, no?

But... when people act like they really, truly HATE children.. I wonder about that. Yes, there are individuals that you aren't going to like. But the widespread hatred thing? I don't get that. It's no different, to me, than having prejudice against another race or religion. Hating people because they are children is a bit sick IMO. Or a sign of extreme immaturity. I always wonder if they had a particularly bad childhood themselves.

Now interestingly enough, I have encountered people who really dislike my daughter because she has a pony, is beautiful and sweet and has a great life. I had someone tell me once that I should not tell her she is beautiful because she will "think she's something special". Well damn right I hope she thinks she is something special. When I discussed this with the woman who said it, she actually ended up crying because she realized that she was projecting her shitty childhood, where she herself was told she was NOTHING special and put down constantly, onto my daughter. That she thought that was normal and when she actually saw what she was doing she was horrified. She said that before she realized why she felt that way, just seeing my daughter sometimes made her angry. Therapy, anyone?!!! So maybe all the kid haters just need some therapy to get over whatever happened to them to make them feel the way they do. I dunno, but it's ugly.

Then again, this is a society where people think if they feel a certain way, that makes it ok. All that BS about how all your feelings are valid? Hmmm. Learning to control your thoughts and your mind rather than it controlling you is an important part of growing up. Some people never learn to do it, some people never even try. Feeling hatred for a group of people should be a red flag but apparently it's not...

it's kind of creepy, actually.. considering that if you are an adult, you once were a child...

sorry for the randomness of this, I'm just typing along as I think about it..:lol:

BuddyRoo

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:53 PM

Okay. So here are my expectations.

1) Teach what you want to practice outside the home. IE: If my horse does not have a good whoa on her in the arena, it would be pretty silly of me to take her out on the trail during a big group ride and expect a whoa. The time to teach whoa is on MY time at MY barn in the arena/fenced in area.

So. If your kids are not respectful/obedient most of the time at home...can't sit at the dinner table without throwing a fit, can't sit still for 2 min while you tie your own shoes, etc...then it is probably just as silly for you to expect them to learn this skill with all the distractions of the barn or restaurant as it would be for me to teach WHOA out on a group ride.

2) Even when you *think* you taught your horse well, sometimes, they get mind blown and for everyone's safety, you have to remove them from the situation.

Similarly, if you get a kid out at a restaurant or at the barn and they start acting up, remove them from the situation so that they can learn that if I behave inappropriately, I am removed. No more fun. My friends did this with their daughter a time or two. She is now quite well behaved at a restaurant.

3) If you're worried about how someone else might correct your horse, dog or child for bad behavior, then please be the one to do it first. If my horse is pawing in the cross ties, it's my job to correct this quickly. If I don't, I should not be surprised if someone else yells at her. If my roommate's dog starts barking, I'll give her 3 barks to correct it the way she wants to...then *I* do it. Because at 5am? I don't want to hear the dog bark. And it's MY house.

So, if your kid is doing something wrong, please don't act oblivious to it. I don't WANT to say anything. Really, I don't. But if your kid is climbing all over the loosely stacked hay that was brought in for the week or is getting dangerously close to the hind end of a known kicker, I'm going to say something if you don't. Why? Because someone has to! I don't want to see a kid get hurt!

I may not have kids. But I don't hate them. I just haven't had the life circumstance where kids were an option. Am I somewhat less tolerant than my "mommy" friends? Yes. Perhaps I am. But I think that's because I'm not worn out by the kids all day like they are. They can tune it out. They're choosing their battles I suppose. I dunno.

Still, I don't hate kids.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:54 PM

Every one knows how to rasie your child better than you do! :rolleyes:

Oh man, I had ALL the answers... before my stepson came to live with us. Everything I ever knew went right out the window.

First thing I did the next time I saw my mom was apologize and give her a hug, babbling about how I was so sorry for everything I ever did wrong because this was so, so awful and I didn't know how to do it. I still don't, and it's been eight years.

Surprising, the things you learn when you least expect it.

JollyBadger

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:55 PM

See, that's exactly the thing- those little sh$ts are people just like you and have a right to be there, learning how to navigate the world. Nobody ever promised you a child-free world :)

Children are a part of our society, like it or not.

There is a difference, though, when the parents take their children out into social situations and actually teach them what is and isn't acceptable. . .and if the child is just having a "bad day" or otherwise isn't interested in learning how to behave properly in that setting, the child is removed from the situation. Maybe the parents will try again another time, but they at least have enough social etiquette and consideration for others not to just sit there while junior's tantrum plays out in the middle of a restaurant, store, movie, concert, etc.

Then there are the "just deal with it" parents who bring their undisciplined, socially incompetent families out into the world. . .and to hell with the rest of the paying customers.

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:57 PM

The final problem-- a litigious society and double standards.

My horse must be so well trained that he takes up the slack for kids who aren't taught how to behave safely around him. So parents, help me out, since we will both be unhappy when your kid has a permanent horseshoe shaped scar on her face. You will be especially unhappy when you see my balance sheet and realize that suing me into the ground won't yield much in the way of a jackpot.

I'll keep my horse trained, fenced it and take responsibility for his actions, if you take responsibility for your kid's safety.

But don't ask me to ask him-- an animal with a brain the size of an orange-- to make up for your mistake in not teaching your kid with that oh-so-large cerebral cortex to use common sense.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:57 PM

Every one knows how to rasie your child better than you do! :rolleyes:

Sadly, it's becoming more common that this is true.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:57 PM

This is an excellent, excellent post.

Okay. So here are my expectations.

1) Teach what you want to practice outside the home. IE: If my horse does not have a good whoa on her in the arena, it would be pretty silly of me to take her out on the trail during a big group ride and expect a whoa. The time to teach whoa is on MY time at MY barn in the arena/fenced in area.

So. If your kids are not respectful/obedient most of the time at home...can't sit at the dinner table without throwing a fit, can't sit still for 2 min while you tie your own shoes, etc...then it is probably just as silly for you to expect them to learn this skill with all the distractions of the barn or restaurant as it would be for me to teach WHOA out on a group ride.

2) Even when you *think* you taught your horse well, sometimes, they get mind blown and for everyone's safety, you have to remove them from the situation.

Similarly, if you get a kid out at a restaurant or at the barn and they start acting up, remove them from the situation so that they can learn that if I behave inappropriately, I am removed. No more fun. My friends did this with their daughter a time or two. She is now quite well behaved at a restaurant.

3) If you're worried about how someone else might correct your horse, dog or child for bad behavior, then please be the one to do it first. If my horse is pawing in the cross ties, it's my job to correct this quickly. If I don't, I should not be surprised if someone else yells at her. If my roommate's dog starts barking, I'll give her 3 barks to correct it the way she wants to...then *I* do it. Because at 5am? I don't want to hear the dog bark. And it's MY house.

So, if your kid is doing something wrong, please don't act oblivious to it. I don't WANT to say anything. Really, I don't. But if your kid is climbing all over the loosely stacked hay that was brought in for the week or is getting dangerously close to the hind end of a known kicker, I'm going to say something if you don't. Why? Because someone has to! I don't want to see a kid get hurt!

I may not have kids. But I don't hate them. I just haven't had the life circumstance where kids were an option. Am I somewhat less tolerant than my "mommy" friends? Yes. Perhaps I am. But I think that's because I'm not worn out by the kids all day like they are. They can tune it out. They're choosing their battles I suppose. I dunno.

Still, I don't hate kids.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:57 PM

You can't teach them to behave in different environments if you never take them there and teach them what is and isn't acceptible.

You don't expect a puppy to know everything a trained adult dog will know. You don't expect a foal to be perfectly trained. Kids are the same way.

You take them out, teach them what is and isn't appropriate, but in the meantime sometimes maybe a too loud word will pop out in the nice restaurant, or a few steps of running will occur at the barn. Like with horses, repetition is key. You find after a while that they figure out how to use quiet voices at the restaurant, and walk at the barn.

And you know what? I wouldn't take a puppy that isn't trained to someone's house and let them piddle all over because they don't know better. I wouldn't take a foal or a greenie to a new place without being very aware of boundaries.

And that's the point - as stated so well by another poster, who, when their child became disruptive to a restaurant, took the child to the car. If a child begins to misbehave when they are in a public place - by that I include the barn, a restaurant, whatever - then the PARENT or GUARDIAN is responsible to remove the child, deliver the appropriate discipline, and help teach the child what is considered acceptable behavior.

It's not the first banshee scream that I object to. Kids will be kids, after all. It's the continued misbehavior, or knowingly repeating misbehavior, that is unacceptable.

If I go to a restaurant to have a nice meal (and I'm not talking about Chuck E Cheese), and your child starts running around and screaming, that is YOUR responsibility. Ditto at the barn - I don't want my horse spooked by your child's antics. I should not have to be subjected to that. By your rationale, it would then be perfectly acceptable to take my non paper trained puppy in the chew-anything stage and let them loose in your house and yard.

And that is also unacceptable behavior. So fair's fair.

Nes

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:58 PM

Would appreciate it if a few people would read the rest of my post...

You can't control children. It can't be done. You can teach them how to behave and discipline them when they are bad but you can not CONTROL them - we all have free will. That is why they need to be supervised. Even the best behaved children can be crouching in a bush to get their ball and scare the bejeezus out of some horse unintentionally.

My family was also very well behaved at all times (there were 4 of us growing up) and my parents frequently got compliments in restaurants. That is because we didn't go out when we were too young to understand why you needed to be quiet are respectful of other people.

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:58 PM

I was perceiving that the two were being lumped into the same category, that playing and getting into mischief WAS extreme misbehavior and something that no thinking person should have to tolerate. The reality is that kids sometimes misbehave, even with the best of parents. It's part of being little humans.

Paragon, I actually like children. I just don't like undisciplined hell spawn, whose parents seem to think it's okay to let them run rampant.

One of my absolute favorite riding buddies is 12 y/o. She's a wonderful girl, and an amazing rider. She has her "spazzy kid" moments of course, but overall she's a joy to be around. As are all the children at my trainer's barn.

If I didn't like kids, or thought that they should be seen and NEVER heard, my trainer's barn would be hell on earth for me.

katarine

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

I do like kids, but I don't understand the latest trend of uber-catering to them. Tired of oblivious parents having long lunches with other oblivious parent and literally ignoring their kids racing around the restaurant, chasing each other around tables, etc. I'm talking 'nicer' lunch spots, not fancy, just work-lunch type places...say 9$ a person, not McDs, know what I mean? I'm there on a lunch break from work, with mostly other office peeps at lunch- and it's like a playroom in the restaurant. I don't understand THOSE parents.

I respect that parenting is tough, I just wish there was a little more collective respect for the other diners, for other adults in the vicinity.

Related to horses, what to make of the little boy, about 5, that joined my all-adults group at a horse show last summer. Crawling on us, insisting in sitting on so and so's lap...a lap he didn't know from Adam. I was molested as a child- the notion that 'anyone at a horse show is safe, good people'-just freaked me out a little. Took a while to find his folks, too. Little man shouldn't be free to get into such dangeous situations, but his folks were pretty cavalier about the whole thing :no:

It's not the kids, it's their folks I don't quite follow...

EqTrainer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

Isn't it weird that it is always the same people insisting the rest of us are required to sit thru whatever they consider proper parenting (or lack there of) with out complaint?

Ambrey, are you really telling us that we (general public = we) have no right to enjoy a night out with out screeching children because heck, you have a right to train your kids no matter how rude it is to those around you?

Like has been said, we were told to behave when we went out or we would be leaving and going home, etc. We believed the adults and behaved appropriately. I am sure, with out a doubt, that my mother would have packed us up on a moments notice had we caused a scene. Oh, and for the record, single mother who was going to school trying to make ends meet after our father left, she had been a stay at home mom. So yeah, even way busy single parents can have rules.

Welllll.... of course there is a point where it becomes unreasonable. However - what do you do when someone has a three year old at a horse show who is screaming his head off missing his herd mates? What about if he breaks away from his handler and runs around and causes a ruckus? What about if he misbehaves in the warm up and you have to stay aware of where he is? What if the person handling him asks you to, just for a moment, to move away or to be still or to do something that will help him calm down?

My guess is most horse people are totally sympathetic to the person w/the young horse at the horse show. I'm not saying that kids should be allowed to run rampant.. but maybe a little more thought towards the fact that they are young animals that have to be trained in public at some point might be helpful :lol:

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

Ghazzu

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

Some people have the unrealistic expectation that if a child is being raised right, whether it's through guilt or the Almighty Paddle, they'll never screw up. That's just unreasonable.

Not at all.
But there's a difference between being seated in a restaurant on the other side of a booth from a kid who stands up and looks over and says "Hi!" (hell, I'm happy to return the greeting), and is told gently by his parents to sit down, and one who jumps up and down through the entire meal, occasionally flinging food over the wall, and is allowed to go merrily on his way without a word from the parental units.

Those I usually just growl to my SO about.

The ones I *will* come down on are the ones running screaming down the aisle of a barn where I'm trying to suture a laceration on a sedated animal.
I'm not going to get killed rather than risk damaging their self-esteem...

findeight

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

See, that's exactly the thing- those little sh$ts are people just like you and have a right to be there, learning how to navigate the world. Nobody ever promised you a child-free world :)

No...but no restaurant patron anywhere should have to watch a 3 year old screaming and jumping up and down on a booth banging plates and glassware for a solid hour. My niece did that and I would just get up and leave since my sis would just sit and shrug and say she couldn't do a thing with her. Yet when I raised the supposedly more rambuctious boys as step kids, they could order off a menu at age 6 and we never went anywhere where they would have to sit still and quiet for longer then I felt they were able to and never a fine dining establishment until they were older.

I can also cite my anniversary dinner that was ruined by brats at the next table wailing and fighting in a romantic, candlelit establishment with nothing under $40 on the menu. Or the fact my favorite casual steakhouse allows kids at the bar. I had already ordered about $50 in wine and filet when they plunked a 3 year old in a doody diaper on the stool next to me who promptly dumped the sippy cup of apple juice on top of my garlic mashed while Mom chatted on the cell phone about her shopping that day and dad chugged beer and watched a game. The restaurant replaced the meal but no apology from these cretins, no diaper change either. No place else to sit.

Don't even get me started about the airplane behavior. Including the one that split it's head open running up and down and caused a diversion. Now suing, of course.

Yeah, not the kids fault but when you add 1200 pounds in steel shoes on a semi intelligent, reactive animal or any other non child safe environment, it gets more serious.

I dunno..there ARE winners and losers and actions have consequences in real life. We do not seem to be teaching our kids that any more. it's all I'm OK. You are OK. No winners, no losers and it's all about feeling good about yourself. No thought for others any more.

OK, I'm done now. Carry on.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 01:59 PM

Would appreciate it if a few people would read the rest of my post...

You can't control children. It can't be done. You can teach them how to behave and discipline them when they are bad but you can not CONTROL them - we all have free will. That is why they need to be supervised.

My family was also very well behaved at all times (there were 4 of us growing up) and my parents frequently got compliments in restaurants. That is because we didn't go out when we were too young to understand why you needed to be quiet are respectful of other people.

Good thing 'control' is subjective and open to various interpretations.

Rhyadawn

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:01 PM

Nes

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:03 PM

Duct tape and a leash= control. :)

:lol: It's been suggested I do that with out 13 month old, honestly I think those child-leashes they had when I was little were a great idea!!

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:03 PM

I appreciate the explanations that clarify my misunderstanding. :) Thanks, guys. I definitely had the wrong idea.

My barn isn't overly strict. We have an active lesson program with dozens and dozens of regular students, some as young as three. The kids who pose a problem are in the significant minority, and of those kids (out of the over-one-hundred I've dealt with), I can count on one hand the situations where the parents were truly unrepentant bastages who shouldn't have their children out of the house, let alone in a horse barn. So to me, these threads were seeming terribly exaggerated.

Again, thanks.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:04 PM

:lol: It's been suggested I do that with out 13 month old, honestly I think those child-leashes they had when I was little were a great idea!!

I wish they made those for adults sometimes :)

Equilibrium

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:04 PM

You surely can control children. My parents would have beat the crap out of me if I behaved in ANY way improperly in public. There is no excuse for bad manners, regardless of if its a kid, dog, or horse.

I'm going to have to agree with this as well. Nowadays all kids have an excuse for bad behavior which we are all suppose to tolerate and forgive.

Look it, I was a holy terror always finding trouble. But I can tell you here and now I knew what to expect if I couldn't behave properly out in public. And more importantly, I knew that misbehaving in any way around horses would mean no more riding. It was viewed as a privilege not a right. Did my parents just beat the crap out of me ? - no. And I remember as an adult laughing about how bratty I use to be and how I would get smacked. My Dad said to me, "I wasn't ' abusive was I?" To which I replied, " Every smack I got I fully deserved" I don't think you were abusive in any way shape or form. I'm really sorry but time outs in my room didn't work. On one such time out, I snuck down to the basement to get some suitcases at 5years old. My mom caught me dragging the up the steps. She asked if I was running away, and I said "no I'm packing your things, you're going, I'm not the problem." That's how I used my time outs!:)

Again, riding and being in the barn was a privilege and I acting accordingly. By the same token my mom never took me to her areobics classes to hang out while she did her thing. She wasn't going to get anything accomplished and more importantly, I was probably going to ruin everyone elses time too!And for the record my parents never got angry with any adult who told me the way I needed to act.

Terri

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:07 PM

See, that's exactly the thing- those little sh$ts are people just like you and have a right to be there, learning how to navigate the world. Nobody ever promised you a child-free world :)

Children are a part of our society, like it or not.
And THAT attitude is why children are growing up with the great sense of entitlment that they are.
Children do need to "navigate the world" but with some one leading them through and teaching how to navigate in a civilized manner.
What?? I THOUGHT you were ready for this but evidently not so I will remove you so you won't annoy others and we'll try later when you actually are ready to act sane.

Nes

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:07 PM

I wish they made those for adults sometimes :)

:lol: I think there are some *adult* stores that may cater to your wishes on that one... ;)

Rhyadawn

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:08 PM

Amen, Pirateer!

My father likes to tell a story about when we were all small. My parents had six children, five of which were boys. Talk about a handful!

We were out at an adult, sit down restaurant. My father was on one end of the table, my mother on the other. That was so if one of us forgot our manners, there was always a parent close at hand to "remind" us. ;)

We'd finished our meal and were getting ready to go, when a couple approached my father. The husband said, "That was quite impressive! I've never seen a group of such well behaved children. Ours have to be left home when we come out to eat."

My father looked him in the eye and said, "Mister, they weren't born well behaved. If your kids are brats, it's your own fault." :lol:

I love my parents dearly because they were parents, and not trying to be our "friends".

I work with a youth organization, ages 12 to 18. We (6 staff) frequently take out up to 50 of these little darlings on trips 5 days or more. This includes eating at restaurants, going to museams, being out in the public. We get complements on them all the time. Teenagers do not have to be the spawn of satan that they are treated like.

Kids aren't born knowing how to behave. They need to be taught. And it doesn't happen overnight either. My goddaughter who spends a lot of time with me knows how to behave in public whether at the barn or out shopping. If she (when she was younger) had a meltdown in a store because she wanted a toy or candy or something, she got a swat on the a$$ and we went home. When she calmed down we would talk about why that was not apropriate behavior.

She is now a well behaved, calm, early teen. Her siblings are the spawn of satan. They scream, yell, pull your hair and just throw tantrums if they don't get what they want.
Children will be children. They play, sometimes rough, they don't always fully understand the full consequences of things, but if their parents drop the ball how are they suposed to know what they should and shouldn't be doing.

I don't blame the kids, I blame the parents.

cloudyandcallie

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:21 PM

I read on another thread where someone, forget whom, responded that this board has a majority of posters who "hate kids."
I've been at lots of barns with kids and I've worked with a lot of kids from the projects, and I've found that most kids are well-behaved when they are treated as humans and when people take the time to explain why they should or should not do something.
Yes my Aussies are more well behaved in public than most children, but then the Aussies are little rascals at home.
I've been at 2 barns with autistic kids who were very nice and understood how to act around horses, and at a big commercial barn with after school day care for kids, and I loved it. Children can be so funny and honest and helpful. Like the 4 yr old who hand fed hay to Cloudy and Callie, one stem at a time. Kids have groomed my horses, brought them in from paddocks, and given me tips on how to do things.
The only bad situation I've every had with kids was one barn with the BO and her best friend's grandchildren ran, literally rampant, out of control, weren't disciplined, and one grandchild was on psychotropic drugs because he was already diagnosed at 6 or 7 yoa as being a potential serial killer.:eek: My wb hid behind my tb mare every time that kid came into the paddock to get our jolly ball.
When I was a child I was treated like an adult and like I had a brain.
However, people who dislike children, even saying they "hate" them, need to be at barns where children are banned. There are people on this board who board with BOs who have children or grandchildren and who complain about those kids. Since they have no use for children, they need to move and quit the gripes.

what I don't like are the ones who sat crosslegged under the stomach of my hot tb mare while looking at her hoof, the ones who grabbed and hugged my wb around his rear, and the ones who rode their biting/kicking horses right up beside me.................oh wait, those were all drunk adults in their 30s and 40s at different barns.

Dispatcher

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:25 PM

It's not a matter of being hostile to kids. It's a matter of being intolerant of ill behaved children. Bad behaviour is not always due to some medical condition. Continuous bad behaviour and bad social skills are due to not being taught. And teaching these things is the job of parents. Apparently, a lot of parents aren't very good teachers!

Mozart

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:26 PM

Honestly, where are you people finding all these out of control, horribly behaved kids?

Sure, I come across some but I must live in a bubble since I see more parents trying to do the right thing than not. I think the minority are giving the majority a bad reputation.

Next time you see a child that is supposedly "out of control", have a good look at what is actually going on. I was in a check out the other day and a baby was wailing his head off at another till. People around me started grumbling. The mother was in the process of paying and packing up her stuff, what was she supposed to do, halt everything and pick up the baby and delay everyone?

I have seen children (my own included) have a melt down when they aren't allowed to get the at child eye level at the check out. What is the parent supposed to do? Give in? Of course not you stand your ground and ignore the child. That is how they learn that throwing a temper tantrum does not get them anywhere.

Do you walk away, leaving your groceries for some poor clerk to put away, what has your child learned? That they get a reaction. That is not the lesson that needs to be learned.

Whenever I am in the store and a parent is looking uncomfortable because their child is throwing a hissy fit I always give them a smile and say "don't worry, we've all been there".

Of course I'm not talking about oblivious parents who make no attempt to control their children or children that are risking harm to themselves or others, but I truthfully say, they are the exception rather than the rule.

And until we can reproduce by cloning or cell division or something....children are going to an inescapable fact of life so some of you may have to take a deep breath and go to your happy place....

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:29 PM

AnotherRound

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:32 PM

Christ, there's a faction here who just do't seem to get it. Its not that it isn't hard to train the kids, its not that they will get it with the right training, its not that the parents aren't doing it right, its that THE PARENTS DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO SAY NO.

No, this behaviour is unacceptable, so we go home, so we sit in the car and wait there, so you can't come to the restaurant with us, so we have to leave the store with your presents unbought,

Its not rocket science. Its the parents who can't say no, who can't remove their child, who belive THEY are entitled to impose their unruly child on the rest of society. Its a choice, people. Its not correct to choose to keep your badly behaved child in public. In fact, removing him from public is a direct consequence, and consequences for one's bad behaviours are important lessons for children.

For adults, too. Usually I find that adults who can't impose consequences on their children for their behaviour are unable to take responsibility for their own, either. Like the decision to keep an acting out child in public when they shoujld make the hard choice and end the outing.

YOu may not be able to control your child, but you can control yourself and how you respond to it. Quit trying to sound intellectual about it, Quit getting in a huff, pull up your big girl panties and be a parent.

Rhyadawn

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:33 PM

Children are a part of our society, like it or not.

No one is denying this, but that doesn't mean that children need to be holy terrors either.

Have you looked around at society today?! When half a classroom is "special needs" students, and more kids are on ritalin or type drug, and there are as many kids coming from broken homes. It's pathetic. I feel for these kids, it's part of the reason I work with youth organizations; we are there to give them some stability, even if its just a few hours a couple times a week.

Kids act out because they don't know how to act. Kids thrive on structure (not necessarily the school type. They WANT to know what is expected of them, even if they don't always want to follow it.

Parents need to be parents.

Now, to make this horse related, when it comes to the barn, its dangerous for kids to be running underfoot with horses when they aren't being supervised properly. If they are yelling and spooking horses, its dangerous. If we wouldn't do it ourselves, it shouldn't be allowable for children. It doesn't mean its never going to happen (they are kids, they make mistakes) but if it does, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

twofatponies

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:33 PM

I know each generation always wails about "kids these days" being so much worse etc etc. I doubt they are. There were some nasty kids in ancient Rome, too, if you read the history books! And surely you all remember the rude and obnoxious kids you went to summer camp or school with?

I think part of the venting that happens here is because there's not much place to vent in real life.

I think part of it might be that today kids are included in more places and events that used to be for adults only and it's less common for women to stay home and be mothers exclusively. Though I know in my own family of past generations stay-at-home moms were not necessarily good moms!

Kids don't know anything they haven't been taught. I think some families tend to the "be friends with the kids" attitude and don't teach boundaries and manners. It is astonishing to watch my nieces and nephews who HAVE been taught say "Pweez would you like to play pwinzess wif me?" versus the nieces and nephews who have NOT been taught who grab, hit, and jump on you and don't even say "nice to see you" or any other politeness. But I can see the teaching happening (or not). The little monster ones don't get the prompting that teaches them: "Johnny, say hello to your auntie." "Johnny, give Uncle Bob a hug." "Use your fork, dear." etc.

I think it's a shame, but having attempted once to discuss the problem with one kid's mom (after receiving yet another physical injury from an out of control kid), I realize it is not really discussable. She was deeply offended that I criticized the kid's behavior and her parenting technique, and didn't speak to me for months. This was a relative, not a stranger. Sigh.

ETA: To make *this* horse related, it's no different than a person with a well-mannered horse vs. one who never sets any rules, and has a horse that drags you around, runs you over, nips, etc. I have heard some horse (and dog) owners say they don't want to "kill their spirit" by having any structure or discipline. I think that's part of the same attitude that leads to ill-mannered kids.

Chester's Mom

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:33 PM

Of course I'm not talking about oblivious parents who make no attempt to control their children or children that are risking harm to themselves or others, but I truthfully say, they are the exception rather than the rule.

You are not, but we are.... I have no complaints (here or elsewhere) about kids having meltdowns as you describe. It happens. Its part of growing up. I have no complaints either about kids who are with their parents, get CAUGHT by their parents and then disciplined by their parents... pretty much regardless of what they did. I have been known to try to stand up for the kid myself if their parents are disciplining them on behalf of me or my animals if I think the parents are being too strict.

Unfortunately, badly behaved kids with worse behaved parents are becoming more and more the norm in the public world. :no:

It probably catches our eyes more in the horsey world since the kids put themselves at as great a risk or moreso than they do us or our animals.

findeight

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:36 PM

Oh, I find some autistic and ADD types are much better behaved then so called normals simply because they are usually more carefully supervised by somebody they respect.

I am not talking about normal kid stuff. I am talking those few that do have issues due to divorce, sibling rivalry and whatever else goes on at home and come with lack of supervision or any type of concern for others-it is all about them. Like my niece who terrorized any restaurant, now grown, unemployed but she did recently get out of out of rehab...again.

You know, the ones who say "you can't tell me what to do" if you make any attempt at supervision in self defense and whose parents are too concerned with not damaging their self esteem. And, frankly, are usually slefish and too wrapped up in their own persuits to pay any attention to the kid...clueless without the child care professional to the point of not even changing a bad diaper.

My BO/BM does not tolerate too much of that but we do have the tack cleaning fairy problem from the tweeners...and some teens. That is not that big a deal.

Sdhaurmsmom

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:36 PM

Kids, students and horses like me for the same reason. I'm clear and reasonable about what I'd like from them, I try to take into account what they want, and I think of everything as a negotiation.

So the systematic kind of escalation for the pushy yearling I might be leading is the same thing I do for kids, or really anyone of any age. In the end, kids dig me because (they say) I treat them like adults. Of course that comes with the caveat that I don't ask them to do things they can't at their age-- delay gratification too long, see through a too-complicated chain of cause and effect, read my mind and know up front what's going to get me really mad, really fast.

See, I'm in this camp. Systematic escalation, not starting out by calling names or being antagonistic. Not going to the 'nuclear option' immediately.
And also, going to the source (the parents) and asking them to do the correcting.

I know some kids have the misfortune to be born to irresponsible, feckless people. It's because we don't have to get a license, or pass any kind of fitness exam, to become parents. More's the pity.

The more interactions those poor luckless kids have with people who are firm and fair (and not vitriolic), the more likely they will survive their childhood and do better than their parents did.

"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible". -Dalai Lama

Seal Harbor

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:37 PM

See, that's exactly the thing- those little sh$ts are people just like you and have a right to be there, learning how to navigate the world. Nobody ever promised you a child-free world :)

Children are a part of our society, like it or not.

Then TEACH them to be part of society before they leave the house/get out of the car/go to the movies. Not during, not after. As in these are the rules for this place, violate them in anyway, shape or form and we go home and you get punished. Baby crying in theater REMOVE IT and yourself. Babies cry, everyone gets that, little kids get bored, we get that too what we DON'T get is the idiot parent trying to reason with a 5 year old. You can't reason with someone who doesn't have the capacity at that age. You REMOVE them from the situation. Or worse the ones who do NOTHING. It is not my problem to have to deal with your child's ruining my time in a theater, a restaurant or the barn, it is the parent's responsibility to REMOVE them from the situation and have their little chat later.

If we misbehaved AFTER we were given the lecture PRIOR to going some where we were REMOVED. That included the time dinner was on the way to the table in the restaurant and my father took us home after he paid for the food we didn't get to eat. It happened exactly one time, we never did it again, we were perfectly well behaved out in public restaurants after that. He was not going to allow us to behave that way without immediate consequences, one we understood would happen if we could not control ourselves and he was not going to let us ruin other people's evening out.

And please tell me why parents insist on bringing kids to places where the kid is bored out of their mind, when they are tired and cranky (hint to go home and let them have a nap or feed them!) so the rest of the world can be as miserable as the kid is? Parents need to realize that sometimes their day is going to suck and the parent is not going to get to do what they want because their children are tired, nagging, bored, grumpy but they do not have to inflict this on the rest of the world. Take the kid home.

Ghazzu

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

I have nothing but sympathy for the parents with screaming child in grocery cart.
That's not at all the same scenario as screaming child running loose in nice restaurant, or down aisle of barn.

tmo0hul

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:44 PM

Isn't it weird that it is always the same people insisting the rest of us are required to sit thru whatever they consider proper parenting (or lack there of) with out complaint?

Exactly. Reading through all the posts I really realize that I like kids - I just hate the badly behaved ones (and their parents).

A recent example - DH and I were on a weekend getaway, the first in many years. I had gotten us a nice room at a hotel so we could enjoy the pool and hot tub and just relax. We checked in around 4 and saw a gaggle of screaming kids in the pool. OK - we'll wait. Went back down at 5:30 to have a swim before dinner. Gaggle still there.

Turns out parents had decided to host a birthday pool party there. Parents asked the kids not to yell - kids ignored them. I said something to the parents, they responded that management said it was OK for them to use the pool. They really thought it was acceptable for no one else in the entire hotel to be able to enjoy the pool because they wanted to be there.

I could not take it. The noise was deafening. I spoke with the desk clerk who, although apologetic, was unwilling to say anything to the parents. I could go to another hotel across the road and swim, though, if I wanted. Stop-right-there. I have the right to alter my plans, to not use a service that I paid for? Wow. Thanks.

tmo0hul

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:47 PM

Christ, there's a faction here who just do't seem to get it. Its not that it isn't hard to train the kids, its not that they will get it with the right training, its not that the parents aren't doing it right, its that THE PARENTS DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO SAY NO.

You may not be able to control your child, but you can control yourself and how you respond to it. Quit trying to sound intellectual about it, Quit getting in a huff, pull up your big girl panties and be a parent.

Game. Set. Match.

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:49 PM

I spoke with the desk clerk who, although apologetic, was unwilling to say anything to the parents.

Wow. Sounds like they were unwilling to do their job, period. I hope you complained to management! What a joke.

Rhyadawn

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:49 PM

honestly I think those child-leashes they had when I was little were a great idea!!

They were! Children were safe. They weren't free to run 30 feet in front of you, run into stores without you, go run up to random people. They were safely attatched to you. But now that's abuse.

findeight

Jun. 11, 2009, 02:58 PM

See, I'm in this camp. Systematic escalation, not starting out by calling names or being antagonistic... going to the source (the parents) and asking them to do the correcting.

On what planet?

Ummm, tried bringing out of control bad behavior to the attention of the parents lately?

If you don't get told to butt out, you get the "I know, I'm a bad mother but I just can't deal with it today" Or "it's my scum bag ex hubby's fault, he won't discipline him" or "I can't do a thing with him".

I recently attended an awards banquet totally turned into a shambles by about 6 of the 40 or so kids ranging from 6 to about 12. Besides the upscale hotel manager repeatedly coming into the banquet to plead for somebody to stop them careening around screaming and playing in the elevators, the brats called 911 to claim they were being ABUSED in a hotel room. The arrival of several squad cars does put a damper on most parties, this was no exception. Flock of cops descending on the hotel lobby did not please anybody either. They even duped one poor tag along kid into waiting by the phone to see what happened...that one learned the hard way about hanging around with the wrong crowd:no:. At least he will never be a problem after that. Of course that one really got it from his parents as well.

True story.

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:00 PM

Exactly. Reading through all the posts I really realize that I like kids - I just hate the badly behaved ones (and their parents).

A recent example - DH and I were on a weekend getaway, the first in many years. I had gotten us a nice room at a hotel so we could enjoy the pool and hot tub and just relax. We checked in around 4 and saw a gaggle of screaming kids in the pool. OK - we'll wait. Went back down at 5:30 to have a swim before dinner. Gaggle still there.

Turns out parents had decided to host a birthday pool party there. Parents asked the kids not to yell - kids ignored them. I said something to the parents, they responded that management said it was OK for them to use the pool. They really thought it was acceptable for no one else in the entire hotel to be able to enjoy the pool because they wanted to be there.

I could not take it. The noise was deafening. I spoke with the desk clerk who, although apologetic, was unwilling to say anything to the parents. I could go to another hotel across the road and swim, though, if I wanted. Stop-right-there. I have the right to alter my plans, to not use a service that I paid for? Wow. Thanks.

If you were at an adult only resort or hotel, yeah I could see this as a problem- however if it's a family place and the parents had permission... tough cookies for you- seriously. No sympathy from me on that one.

Beverley

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:05 PM

Gee. I see as many (maybe more?) rude and inconsiderate grownups in my travels as kids. Maybe the difference is that rude kids are an easier target for venting, people don't have the guts to confront a boorish adult?

I'll say this- when I have, now and then over the years, taught riding lessons, the kids have been MUCH more pleasant to work with than the 'I can't do that' adults.

As regards behavior around barns/horses: 90% of today's parents are indeed totally clueless as to animals in general, so it stands to reason they aren't going to be a source of knowledge for kids. At a parade last Saturday I let probably 300 kids pet my horse- all with parents in tow, many standing right beside the horse's hind feet, in flip flops, I must have had to say oh, 150 times, y'all come on up here in front of the horse where he can see your feet, so he doesn't accidentally step on you. All of the urban kids got that, first time. Some parents didn't.:)

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:05 PM

tmo0hul

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:09 PM

If you were at an adult only resort or hotel, yeah I could see this as a problem- however if it's a family place and the parents had permission... tough cookies for you- seriously. No sympathy from me on that one.

If I could find an "adult only" hotel in Louisville - darn skippy I'd have been there. I paid quite a bit of money for the room - a fairly upscale hotel. I would not say, in any way, it was a "family" hotel. And somehow I'm certain that management did not tell him - yes, you may monopolize our pool for 4 hours (they were just leaving when we left for dinner at 8 pm) and make it impossible for any other guest to use the facilities. Unfortunately, that manager was not there - just the very meek desk gal.

Chief2

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:13 PM

And people wonder why my horse and I tip-toe off into hiding when the truly obnoxious come screaming around the barn!

We groom and tack in the stall. We go off riding on trails that are too long and difficult for these kids to be riding on, and thus peaceful as heaven above. We have no intention at all of going with them to a three-day show, much less camping there with them. We don't even work in the arena when they are ramming around in it.

My horse loves peace and quiet. So do I. We pay to be in a place at a time when we can enjoy it together, and so I am very careful to time my visits that way, or keep my horse out of the mainstream if chaos reigns. When my tactics of evasion cannot keep the truly obnoxious and even dangerous at bay, I make sure that my actions were not the ones causing the problem, finish up with my horse, and I then file a complaint against the family with the BO on my way out. I don't care if it's a child problem, or a parenting problem. They all traveled together to get to the barn, and so they take the hit as a unit. The BO's are being paid to keep things under some kind of control, so I let them have the opportunity to do it. The offenders will take it far better from them than they ever will from anyone else.

That's it. I really have no feelings of hatred or love for anyone else's kid. I couldn't care less if you can parent or not. I don't even care if anybody likes you OR your kid. I just want to be left alone to enjoy my horse. Whether I choose to do this in an adult barn, or one with a lesson program that caters to both children and adults is none of anyone else's business. There's plenty to keep each person busy with their horse when they get to the barn. I'm staying in my space and doing my job with my own horse. Can't you stay in yours and do the same?

Secretariat1194

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:15 PM

I'm fifteen and people are rude to some of my posts. I don't know why people have to act so mean when they don't know me or my lifestyle.

Chief2

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:18 PM

Preface your posts with your age status. There are a lot of jaded, cranky adults here, and if you write well enough you could easily be mistaken for one of us. :lol::lol:

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:18 PM

I'm fifteen and people are rude to some of my posts. I don't know why people have to act so mean when they don't know me or my lifestyle.

Because some people are just plain rude :( but it's best to ignore them.

findeight

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:20 PM

I'm fifteen and people are rude to some of my posts. I don't know why people have to act so mean when they don't know me or my lifestyle.

Well, if you would share more of you and your lifestyle, it would help.

We only have what you say to go on to form an opinion. Fact the point of coming on here for an opinion is you are unknown so all you get is an unbiased opinion.

If you have some unique circumstance in your life that makes you different and would mean a different opinion, you need to share that.

You spell well and your grammer is good from this short post so I would not even have known your age and we do have some nasty types that like to be rude just because nobody knows who they are. No way around that.

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:24 PM

Secretariat, I believe this is a quote from you about certain people:

Bluegrass day usually consists of idiot partiers and drinkers. Lots of drunks.

So it's okay for you to insult others, but it's not okay for others to tell you things you don't want to hear? Typical teenage, "everyone's so mean to me" angst.

The good thing is you'll outgrow it. Probably.

I know I did, and there wasn't anyone who was more of a Teenage Drama Queen than me!

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:25 PM

The good thing is you'll outgrow it. Probably.

One only hopes :)

onelanerode

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:32 PM

I'm really sorry but time outs in my room didn't work. On one such time out, I snuck down to the basement to get some suitcases at 5years old. My mom caught me dragging the up the steps. She asked if I was running away, and I said "no I'm packing your things, you're going, I'm not the problem." That's how I used my time outs!:)

OMFG that is outstanding! :lol:

I do not hate children. I am annoyed by poorly behaved children, and I am even more annoyed by the parents of those poorly behaved children who are oblivious to their behavior. I like well-behaved children in small doses, and that is more because I do not know how to talk to children and I get uncomfortable. But I always assumed that was my fault, not the kid's.

I'm OK with kids having bad days, acting out, etc., and the parents dealing with it appropriately. It's not unlike having the rowdy screaming 3-year-old at his first show. But much as you'd expect the rowdy 3-year-old's owner to do her best to deal with his behavior, I also expect the parent to deal with the acting-out child appropriately, whether that's telling the kid firmly to sit down, popping kid on the behind or removing the kid until he's ready to listen.

You have to have that first outing to a nice restaurant sometime. But before you do that, you practice at home and you go to Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald's. And you realize that despite all your preparation, you may have to hang it up halfway through the meal if your kid is just having one of those days.

I expect kids to act like kids. I also expect parents to act like parents, which means they recognize when their kids aren't behaving appropriately and they DO something about it. Not only is that good parenting, that's showing consideration for everyone else who's being subjected to your kid's bad behavior.

Go Fish

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:34 PM

I managed to trap and lock a little banshee in a stall yesterday. It took "Mom" a full 15 minutes to come looking for the little monster.

twobays

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:38 PM

I managed to trap and lock a little banshee in a stall yesterday. It took "Mom" a full 15 minutes to come looking for the little monster.

Not a great idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment

Trevelyan96

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:50 PM

Truth of the matter is, many of today's kids are being raised in a 'child-centric' environment that encourages them to think the world revolves around them. The result is a whole generation of obnoxious, whiny, spoiled, undisciplined annoying little brats with no understanding of boundaries, personal responsibility, or sef-control.

A parent should be held responsible for providing leadership, guidance, boundaries, and support for their kids. Yes, you should absolutely support them in their activities and efforts. But they should also be made aware that they are part of a society to which they also have some responsibilities of their own. And until they are old enough to understand those concepts on their own, its our job to give them those boundaries as a guidline. Just like a horse who gets his security from a strong alpha that they respect, kids feel more secure when they have solid, reasonable, rules and consequences that they understand and can live within. They are smarter than we give them credit for, and they know deep down that they don't really know enough to always be the ones in charge.

twofatponies

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:52 PM

I managed to trap and lock a little banshee in a stall yesterday. It took "Mom" a full 15 minutes to come looking for the little monster.

LOL - I accidentally locked the BM in a stall once - didn't see her behind the horse, and thought "oh no, someone left the door ajar!" She had to yell for a while before someone heard and let her out. Doh!

Sargentmajor

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:53 PM

Yes, but other patrons of barns/restaurants shouldn't be punished while you teach the little sh$ts how to play nice.

I totally concur! And while it's perfectly normal for a child to have a louder word here and there or a faster step here and there, what is completely bothersome is when Mommy and/or Daddy do NOTHING to correct it, or worse, grin like an idiot and say "oh, isn't that cute, Poopsie is spreading her/his wings". Not appropraite in the barn, at a restaurant (unless it's a McDonalds) or anywhere in public. Kids will be kids...parents should be parents.

charismaryllis

Jun. 11, 2009, 03:56 PM

They were! Children were safe. They weren't free to run 30 feet in front of you, run into stores without you, go run up to random people.

--or run out into traffic. i have actually headed off (other people's) little kids tearing down the sidewalk before they hit the curb against the light.

fortunately most of the kids were i ride act like civilized creatures, and the few times there have been toddlers and wobblers around, they've been pretty well herded by the adults. the adults seem to get the whole "small child does not mix well with back end of large horse" thing.

the working students are great. can't say enough good things about them, but then, i think any 12 yo that goes to a barn to essentially volunteer to shovel horse poop is not your average child anyway.

but yes, what i object to is being subjected to other people's children. if the kid is melting down, and the parent is genuinely trying to do something about it, i'm fine with that--whether the parent succeeds or not. it's the ones who remain happily oblivious to their screechlings that piss me off.

and don't get me started about kids/parents on planes.

Ghazzu

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:00 PM

and don't get me started about kids/parents on planes.

I was on a flight once where there were a couple with 5 youngish children.
All were well behaved--slight meltdown by the youngest, but within reasonable limits.

At the end of the flight, there must have been at least a half dozen of us complimenting the parents on their lovely children as they disembarked...

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:04 PM

Preface your posts with your age status. There are a lot of jaded, cranky adults here, and if you write well enough you could easily be mistaken for one of us. :lol::lol:

But then...you could also write incoherently and be mistaken for one of us cranky and bitter adults. So really, you're in a tough spot.

Chief2

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:06 PM

Yes, she has a point...;)

SGray

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:11 PM

I managed to trap and lock a little banshee in a stall yesterday. It took "Mom" a full 15 minutes to come looking for the little monster.

just keeping it out of harms way - right Go Fish? ;)

Huntertwo

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:14 PM

You surely can control children. My parents would have beat the crap out of me if I behaved in ANY way improperly in public. There is no excuse for bad manners, regardless of if its a kid, dog, or horse.

You bet your behind you can control kids if you want. Like another poster said, everyone wants to be their kids best friend. Be a parent dammit!

We are probably from the same era. Any back talk, mumbling, kicking each other under the dinner table and it was "WHACK"! :yes:

My dad would take off his belt and lay it over the kitchen chair as a reminder that supper time was supper time. No T.V., no fooling around...
etc.

And none of us 3 siblings turned out to be psychopaths either. ;)

Go Fish

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:14 PM

Not a great idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_imprisonment

Oh, please. I'm a lawyer...:lol:

twobays

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:20 PM

Oh, please. I'm a lawyer...:lol:

Just sayin...;)

twobays

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:21 PM

My dad would take off his belt and lay it over the kitchen chair as a reminder that supper time was supper time. No T.V., no fooling around...
etc.

Threatening to hit your kids with a belt is great parenting! :confused:

Go Fish

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:22 PM

just keeping it out of harms way - right Go Fish? ;)

Er....right! :lol:

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:27 PM

It's called corporal punishment.

Unfortunately, in this PC, touchy-feely, can't bruise our little darlings' self esteem world that we currently live in, it's considered abuse to adminster corporal punishment. More's the pity.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is in the Bible, so I guess they had recalcitrant children back then too! :lol:

Trust me, smart children only need ONE whack with a belt to get the lesson. I learned quickly. My brothers however, were either hard headed or brain damaged. Maybe both. ;)

I don't advocate beating children, but a swat on the rear end with something that actually hurts gets the message across far better than a "time out", or a "now let's talk about why your actions are hurtful" speech.

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:28 PM

I was on a flight once where there were a couple with 5 youngish children.
All were well behaved--slight meltdown by the youngest, but within reasonable limits.

At the end of the flight, there must have been at least a half dozen of us complimenting the parents on their lovely children as they disembarked...

I was at a show helping a trainer friend a few years ago. His kids were there, too -- about 6 and 8 at the time -- and they were so polite and so good. I complimented him on their behavior. He said thanks and observed that it takes a lot of work to raise kids other people enjoy being around. ;)

The kids at my barn are mostly in the lesson program, but they know what they can and cannot do, for which I credit the barn manager and instructors. They do an excellent job with them. I give the kids treats for their lesson horses, help them if no one else is around, tell them they look good riding, etc. A few are brats, but they're in the minority, thank heavens.

I also try to be nice to non-horsey kids at shows if I'm not too busy. And if I'm getting ready for a class, I tell them when they can come back. They are thrilled to pet my pretty little mare and love it when I show them how to ask her to bow.

I didn't get a horse until I was 40+ years old, so I can identify with being horse crazy, I guess. I feel privileged to have horses now and it's fun to share.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:38 PM

I'm sorry but you know what? I cannot ever think of a single time in my child's life where her behavior would have disrupted or interfered with another person or their ability to enjoy themselves.

Why?

Because I simply would not allow it to happen...period. As a parent we have the responsibility to make sure that our kids not only behave as they should but also to LEAVE with them when they don't. :lol:

This bears repeating:

"As a parent we have the responsibility to make sure that our kids not only behave as they should but also to LEAVE with them when they don't. :lol:"

This should be printed, laminated, and passed out to everyone leaving the hospital with a new baby. The world would be a much more pleasant place, I think. :yes:

Bravo, equineartworks. :yes:

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:39 PM

Yes, if you could point that out where someone said those words... ;)

Sure!

Yes, but other patrons of barns/restaurants shouldn't be punished while you teach the little sh$ts how to play nice.

That after I said that occasionally, while learning to behave, a child will misbehave.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:39 PM

Threatening to hit your kids with a belt is great parenting! :confused:

Damned sight more effective than this "time out" crap I keep hearing about. :rolleyes:

vacation1

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:40 PM

I think there are two reasons for the hostility toward kids

1) The new lack of both places to escape children - parents now take their kids everywhere and refuse to leave when the child's behavior becomes intrusive - and places to vent, since parents react to even implied criticism by going into hyper-defensive nasty mode.

2) The never-gonna-grow-up mentality of people, both the childless and parents, who persist in behaving like 14-year-olds all their lives. This group naturally dislikes children, who are also loud, inconsiderate and immature - but who have an unassailable excuse in that they're 8.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:41 PM

Damned sight more effective than this "time out" crap I keep hearing about. :rolleyes:

LOL, effective for what?

What is your goal in parenting- obedient children or successful adults?

Why not do a little research on physical punishment, children, achievement, etc and get back to me on that. We're not interested in producing children that don't "annoy" you, we're interested in producing children who grow into adults that will be happy and successful in life.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:44 PM

Why not do a little research on physical punishment, children, achievement, etc and get back to me on that. We're not interested in producing children that don't "annoy" you, we're interested in producing children who grow into adults that will be happy and successful in life.

That nobody else can stand to be around.

arabhorse2

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:51 PM

What is your goal in parenting- obedient children or successful adults?

Both. Obviously your method only includes one and is thus flawed from the outset, since it doesn't produce what you're trying to accomplish.

Unfortunately, disobedient, willful, entitlement oriented children grow up into annoying, obnoxious, entitlement oriented adults. Hardly a recipe for a "successful" adult and a useful, contributing member of society.

When it's all about ME, there's no room for anyone else in their world.

What are they going to do when a boss yells at, or otherwise reprimands them? Pout, cry, scream, and call Mommy about the big, bad, meanie boss who won't let them do what they want?

Life is hard, and children need all the help they can get in maneuvering through it. Coddling them does nothing but give them the idea that everything is theirs for the taking, regardless of whether or not they've actually earned it.

cloudyandcallie

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:51 PM

Oh, please. I'm a lawyer...:lol:

And it is false imprisonment in my state, GA, as well as child abuse if the parent wants to call the cops. And I'm a retired prosecutor (over 28 yrs as prosecutor, federal law clerk, Reggie, and tried many cases, but no false imprisonments, altho a lot of kidnappings.)
But anyway, why lock up a child? You're either at a barn where the BO allows complete chaos, or at a barn where the BO controls all children.
I've been at both. I like martial law to an extent.
Most children can be very helpful at barns, they want attention, and they can seek attention by being nice, or by acting up. I always ask them to help me, and talk to them, not talk down to them. And I've been lucky to have horses who are very careful around kids, and one 16.2 wb who did leadline at one barn because he loves children.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:54 PM

Then TEACH them to be part of society before they leave the house/get out of the car/go to the movies. Not during, not after. As in these are the rules for this place, violate them in anyway, shape or form and we go home and you get punished.

And this is where complete lack of understanding of child development comes in. If YOU had kids with perfect impulse control, I think you got lucky. 99% of the parents do not.

I am not going to punish my child because you don't want to hear a peep out of him at a restaurant. I don't really want to feel your glaring nasty eyes on me as you disapprove of my parenting either, but I'm not telling you to stay home.

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 04:55 PM

Both. Obviously your method only includes one and thus is flawed from the outset, since it doesn't produce what you're trying to accomplish.

Except neither of my children are any of these things. They are both respectful, polite, sweet, high achievers. Who may occasionally make a loud noise or (gasp) make a quick movement.

SGray

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:00 PM

.......I am not going to punish my child because you don't want to hear a peep out of him at a restaurant. I don't really want to feel your glaring nasty eyes on me as you disapprove of my parenting either, but I'm not telling you to stay home.

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

ding ding ding - I believe we have a winner

Mozart

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:01 PM

Look, I am perfectly capable of removing my child from the situation when that will actually teach something. There was one rather memorable occasion at a Dairy Queen when Young Master Mozart would NOT heed his mother's admonition to sit down and behave. This resulted in YMM being picked up and carried, kicking and screaming back to the family van whereupon he was firmly buckled into his child seat, the van doors were locked and this mother stood outside the van for several minutes taking deep cleansing breaths. We then drove home, ice cream left behind on the table. I have since only occasionally had to say "If you do X again, we are going home." He knows I will stick to what I say.

However, there are times when you just have to stay where you are and grind it out. Those times do not include the nice restaurant (hey, I go to nice restaurants to escape children too), the theatre, the horse show or the barn. Any parent that leaves their five year old unattended at a boarding barn is taking ridiculous risks, they are not being indulgent, they are being stupid.

I have to agree with the OP that there is an anti-child bias here, hence I usually don't even look at these threads anymore (and in future I will just steer clear) and I also agree with Beverley that I see WAY more rude and badly behaved adults than children ;)

Moesha

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:04 PM

[QUOTE=Beverley;4159111]Gee. I see as many (maybe more?) rude and inconsiderate grownups in my travels as kids. Maybe the difference is that rude kids are an easier target for venting, people don't have the guts to confront a boorish adult?

I'll say this- when I have, now and then over the years, taught riding lessons, the kids have been MUCH more pleasant to work with than the 'I can't do that' adults.
QUOTE]

As much as both sides can have extremes and valid points...this is an excellent point.

As a kid and at horse shows, I remember being around some horrible adults, I was lucky my two grandmothers and parents were always there...but the bad sportsmanship/vindictive behavior these so called adults displayed on vulnerable children was appalling....and the lies, even a kid could see them put on these kids, to bascaiily take their furstrations out on them was horrible.

Children are going to be children, and in cases where their behavior crosses the line....something needs to be done, their parent or guardian needs to take responsibility...people do not need to put up with brats running wild, bullying other children, stealing, making other peoples lives miserable, endangering animals....and on the other hand people need to lighten up too, at least when kids act up most times it is out of youth and growing up and not the mean spirited bitter hatefulness that many adults have in their behavior.

Ghazzu

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:07 PM

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

Do you let them run into the street? If not, you should be capable of keeping them from running screaming around a restaurant. I would imagine that you are capable of that, so you should know it's not all that hard if you try.

What gets the rest of us are the 'rents who don't even try. They'll keep Precious out of traffic, because Precious might get killed, but they won't keep Precious in her seat at the table, because they assume Precious won't be hurt running around the dining room. They don't care that the behavior disrupts other peoples' dinners.

Again, I don't think it's occasional outbursts that people here are objecting to, but the idea that there seem to be no limits set unless it is directly impacting the parent.

A colleague once asked a client's children several times to stop hanging off the cord of the wall mounted ophthalmoscope in her exam room. The children ignored her, and so did their mother.
Finally, Dr. M. looked directly at Mom and informed her that "if they break it, there will be a $1500 charge added to the bill to replace it".

The children were immediately seated.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:07 PM

Children are going to be children, and in cases where their behavior crosses the line....something needs to be done, their parent or guardian needs to take responsibility...people do not need to put up with brats running wild, bullying other children, stealing, making other peoples lives miserable, endangering animals....and on the other hand people need to lighten up too, at least when kids act up most times it is out of youth and growing up and not the mean spirited bitter hatefulness that many adults have in their behavior.

*standing ovation*

And this is funny because I just went to pick up my son (3rd grade) at school and he said "the nicest kid in class blackmailed [best friend] today." Yep, nicest girl ever, heard a secret and tried to eke some extra swing time out of it.

My mom always told me "life is a hard teacher- it gives the tests first and the lessons later."

RubyLink

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:10 PM

My dad can not stand unruly children and really dislikes the parents of these children. He would never subject people to my tantrums(or my brother's) as a child when we were out in public. If I started having a fit in public I had one chance to behave before he would simply remove me from that situation and I was punished. I either got spanked or grounded or both(usually both).

When my dad got a new job in a different state, he moved up there first and the rest of the family followed when he found a house. Before taking my mom to the new house when we moved up there, we all went to a restaurant to eat. I guess I was tired from traveling all day(I was 3 at the time) and threw a HUGE fit. I wouldn't listen to his warning to behave and he picked me up and left. The only problem is he left my mom in an unfamiliar place without the address. Oops. She eventually figured out where we lived, but the moral of the story is he had no problem disciplining his kids and neither did my mother regardless of where we were.

I wish more people were like my parents. Maybe I just lucked out and they are the exception and not the rule.

SGray

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:13 PM

ding ding ding - I believe we have a winner

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrey http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4159380#post4159380)
.......I am not going to punish my child because you don't want to hear a peep out of him at a restaurant. I don't really want to feel your glaring nasty eyes on me as you disapprove of my parenting either, but I'm not telling you to stay home.

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

winner of the "It's all about me attitude"

and back to locking the child in the stall -- that IS for the child's safety - a small child unattended in a barn full of horses is soon to be a dead/maimed child

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:14 PM

LOL, effective for what?

Making a point. And getting attention. :yes:

What is your goal in parenting- obedient children or successful adults?

I have no "goals in parenting", as I don't have kids. And I don't want to help to raise yours when they act like Tasmanian devils in public. :cool:

Why not do a little research on physical punishment, children, achievement, etc and get back to me on that.

Because I make it a point not to waste time or energy on things that don't interest me. :p

We're not interested in producing children that don't "annoy" you, we're interested in producing children who grow into adults that will be happy and successful in life.

As long as they don't annoy me in the process of their "becoming", I don't care what you do with your spawn. But I have and will correct little darlings whose parents think apelike antics in public places are cute.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:16 PM

Do you let them run into the street? If not, you should be capable of keeping them from running screaming around a restaurant. I would imagine that you are capable of that, so you should know it's not all that hard if you try.

LOL, my kids wouldn't dare run screaming around a restaurant. I said I don't hit them or yell at them, I didn't say I didn't have an evil mom-eye that set fear in their hearts.

Jumphigh83

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:21 PM

And there, in a nutshell, you have WHY these kids are dastardly brats...because the PARENTS LET THEM BE!!!!!!!!!...wouldn't want to damage their little self esteems! AND if you can't control your little demons why don't YOU STAY HOME?
Jeesh. You can't blame a squirrel for acting like a squirrel. They are as they are taught to be. Sad for the kids because the day will come that they will realize that they are NOT the sun around whom the planets revolve!:yes:

Queen Latisha

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:24 PM

I managed to trap and lock a little banshee in a stall yesterday. It took "Mom" a full 15 minutes to come looking for the little monster.

Priceless! :D

SGray

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:25 PM

......However, there are times when you just have to stay where you are and grind it out. Those times do not include the nice restaurant (hey, I go to nice restaurants to escape children too), the theatre, the horse show or the barn. Any parent that leaves their five year old unattended at a boarding barn is taking ridiculous risks, they are not being indulgent, they are being stupid.

I have to agree with the OP that there is an anti-child bias here, hence I usually don't even look at these threads anymore (and in future I will just steer clear) and I also agree with Beverley that I see WAY more rude and badly behaved adults than children ;)

it's not an anti-child bias -- it's an anti-brat bias

and "rude and badly behaved adults" grow from "rude and badly behaved" children

Jumphigh83

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:27 PM

^^^^^5 SGray!!!!!!!!!

Huntertwo

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:27 PM

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrey http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4159380#post4159380)
.......I am not going to punish my child because you don't want to hear a peep out of him at a restaurant. I don't really want to feel your glaring nasty eyes on me as you disapprove of my parenting either, but I'm not telling you to stay home.

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

winner of the "It's all about me attitude"

Yep, first the parent has the "All about me attitude" and guess who has it next? Yep, the kid. And we wonder why this world is going to pot.

I don't consider myself a "cranky adult" because I don't want to hear your precious creating extra noise when I'm out to dinner, a movie, church etc.

Gnalli

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:28 PM

I have no problems disciplining other people's kids. I'll tell the kid what's what, smile at their parents, and sometimes get a "thank you". Sometimes I even hear "See? Now other people are telling you!" as I walk away. :lol: I have never been told off for stating what should be obvious.

Should I have to? Probably not. But now that my own thirteen-year-old has turned into a little Jeckyll-and-Hyde, I know full well that some kids will do exactly as they please when parents aren't looking over their shoulders.

And very rarely do I have a kid NOT listen, at least for a few moments. :lol: Maybe I'm just magically good with children? Dunno.

Me neither. I have no problem telling someone else's kid to square it away pronto. I do it nicely, but I do it, and if it is a case where one will get hurt if I don't step in, I dare someone to say something about it. I'd rather have a ticked off parent than a hurt kid. Mine have their moments when they are not any where near the way I want them to be. If they get that way and I am not there, and some adult tells them to straighten up and fly right, I am not going to say a word to that adult and my kids know it. Can you tell I am not PC at all? Last week, I would have gladly put mine in a round pen and worked the stuffings out of them just like a young horse if there had been one around where I was. Kids learn when they are taught, and sometimes, someone besides Mama has to be the one to say something for it to stick out in their minds.

There is no need to be hostile or hateful if you don't like them there. Do your thing and if it bothers you that much, tell the parent-don't gripe and complain to others and don't take it out on the kid. There is not 10 cents worth of difference in a kid that misbehaves at a barn or is rowdy and a yearling colt doing the same thing, and 8 cents of that is mouth.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:29 PM

and "rude and badly behaved adults" grow from "rude and badly behaved" children

Interesting, because so many of them seem to pop on these threads talking about what great disciplinarians their parents were, while at the same time calling other people's children rude names.

So maybe there is something to be learned from that?

enjoytheride

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:34 PM

I'm wondering if children who never have a parent tell them that every thread isn't about them grow up into adults that think every thread is about them.

Some children are illbehaved brats, if yours are not don't worry about it. If yours are then listen to this thread and teach your children. Nobody on this thread hates children, they just hate undisciplined children raised by poor parents.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:34 PM

Interesting, because so many of them seem to pop on these threads talking about what great disciplinarians their parents were, while at the same time calling other people's children rude names.

So maybe there is something to be learned from that?

Perhaps, Ambrey, because no one knows your kids, yet you're taking this so personally.

Paranoid, much? :p

Gnalli

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:35 PM

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:35 PM

LOL, my kids wouldn't dare run screaming around a restaurant. I said I don't hit them or yell at them, I didn't say I didn't have an evil mom-eye that set fear in their hearts.

See, IMHO, evil mom eye (which is effective) IS only effective if there is something behind it.

charismaryllis

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:36 PM

What are they going to do when a boss yells at, or otherwise reprimands them? Pout, cry, scream,

-shudder- i used to have to work for one of these. yes to the pouting and screaming, and literally following the boss around the office yelling at him because he hadn't been promoted.

oh, this was a 35 yo, by the way.... who was eventually fired.

Mozart

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:37 PM

it's not an anti-child bias -- it's an anti-brat bias

and "rude and badly behaved adults" grow from "rude and badly behaved" children

And yet those grown ups grew up during a time when corporal punishment was the norm kids got strapped at school and society was not so "child-centric"...hmmmmm.....

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:39 PM

And yet those grown ups grew up during a time when corporal punishment was the norm kids got strapped at school and society was not so "child-centric"...hmmmmm.....

It's called "accountability", and is a rapidly disappearing phenomenon in this country.

Mozart

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:41 PM

It's called "accountability", and is a rapidly disappearing phenomenon in this country.

I agree that accountability is rapidly disappearing. But we will have to agree to disagree on the reasons why....

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:42 PM

See, IMHO, evil mom eye (which is effective) IS only effective if there is something behind it.

Except that sometimes, all they need to know is that their behavior isn't meeting expectations.

lalahartma1

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:42 PM

Not a fan!

Rhyadawn

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:44 PM

It's called "accountability", and is a rapidly disappearing phenomenon in this country.

AMEN!

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:44 PM

Perhaps, Ambrey, because no one knows your kids, yet you're taking this so personally.

LOL, actually I highly suspect that even Pirateer would like my kids.

But you know I don't actually have to take something personally to enjoy arguing about it ;)

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:45 PM

Accountability.

Some parents don't want to be accountable to others for their kids' behavior, hence the "kids will be kids" attitude explains/excuses all.

But they also don't want to be accountable to their kids who might not like them for a while.

You can't have it both ways. I think parents can risk a little kid wrath while a fair punishment is being meted out.

All that comes with the "If/Then" statement. Everything in my family worked this way and it was fine. If you wanted life to be easy, you knew how to do that. If you decided your mamma had really stepped over the line and needed to be put in her damned place via your tantrum,you also knew what the consequences would be. As kid, you picked one. But the mom carried out what she promised. The ball was always in the kid's court. Now that's accountability.

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:45 PM

LOL, actually I highly suspect that even Pirateer would like my kids.

But you know I don't actually have to take something personally to enjoy arguing about it ;)

Hey, I LOVE well behaved children.

Go Fish

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:46 PM

it's not an anti-child bias -- it's an anti-brat bias

and "rude and badly behaved adults" grow from "rude and badly behaved" children

Best post on this thread...

Gnalli

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:49 PM

Duct tape and a leash= control. :)

or an 8 foot bridle rein. Daddy always had a bridle over his shoulder....took me years to understand that one. I had enlightenment when I mouthed off one time too many as a teen and that rein came slinging thru the air, down the back of the saddle and caught me on the rear the thigh, and never never touched the horse. I didn't make him repeat that trick. I was controlled. Thrououghly. Daddy was no dummy, and I was not the first kid he had raised...

SGray

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:51 PM

why thank you GoFish

now go let the toddlers out of that stall since the horses are all safely put to bed

Sporthorse Shop

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:52 PM

If you don't like it, you can stay home.

And this is the kind of attitude that has produced the current crop of young adults who feel they are entitled to everything. They never heard no and they were taught that other people's lives don't matter, only their own. They were also taught that the world owes them their happiness.

There is one reason I am happy about this recession we are in. It is going to be a huge wake up call for millions of people who think the world centers around them. The government is too broke to save the self-absorbed from themselves and for once they are getting or going to get the discipline their childhoods were lacking.

I propose that there should be "leash laws" for children. If my dog has to be well-behaved in public and on a leash so that society can go on its merry way without being aggravated, then I should be offered the same courtesy. Maybe if these parents were being fined for ill-behaved children that are being public nuisances, they would actually train the child. My parents used paddles and belts for discipline and it made a strong impression on us kids. They were able to take us to restaurants without any problems, because we knew there would be hell to pay if we acted up. We all achieved academic greatness, financial stability and are socially sound productive citizens. Just more proof that spanking and strict discipline are great parental tools.

To make this HR related - when I started horseback lessons, my parents quickly discovered that they could use the act of taking away my lessons as an extremely effective discipline method. Discipline does evolve as the child matures and can grasp more advanced concepts. Reasoning with a 5 year old is beyond silly, whereas reasoning with a teen MAY be possible.

Chief2

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:53 PM

Except that sometimes, all they need to know is that their behavior isn't meeting expectations.

Sorry. Having taught for over 30 years, and seen all sorts of parenting styles come and go, I've got to agree with Pirateer on this statement. If there's no previous negative experience tied to the parental evil look, it has no real effect on the child. And most evil looks have a good heavy dose of unwanted negative consequences tied to them to make them work VERY effectively.

Try again.

tabula rashah

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:57 PM

fooler

Jun. 11, 2009, 05:58 PM

So in many of these posts, the hostility, when present, is to a great extent directed at the parents of the 'unhandled, rank' children.

Agree - I understand that children are not perfect and should not be expected to be perfect. I do get annoyed with the parents who seem to turn a blind eye to their kids. I am also very sorry for those kids because their parents do not appear to LOVE them enough to care whether the kid is learning to behave properly or not.

Chall

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:06 PM

For me, with no children, I recognize the symptoms of an indulgent parent. Horse moved to new barn this week. Horse was a bully, going after an elderly horse. Found myself saying "he never does that". And I realized that I sounded just like a lot of Moms. Yes, he is insecure, yes he has been picked on in his prior life. But I did say "OK, I believe you, he misbehaved" - only because I have seen so many people deny that type of behavior with their kids.
On another note, because I am so aware of how things can go south with a horse fast I feel like letting a young (untrained) child loose in a barn is like letting a child play in a mine field, literally. Things can become explosive. Please please care for your kids better than that.

lesyl

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:09 PM

Sorry. Having taught for over 30 years, and seen all sorts of parenting styles come and go, I've got to agree with Pirateer on this statement. If there's no previous negative experience tied to the parental evil look, it has no real effect on the child. And most evil looks have a good heavy dose of unwanted negative consequences tied to them to make them work VERY effectively.

Try again.
Hmm - it depends on the child and the person giving the look. Sort of like the ask, really ask and then now with the horse. I suspect the the evil eye look from Ambrey is quite effictive on her child and would have mine be mortified. Childrend like horses are different.

With that not saying there not many examples of kids not behaving at barns or other public places.

As for Paragon - keep trying! That is a tough one and there is no one right solution from how I have seen it.

fooler

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:14 PM

Threatening to hit your kids with a belt is great parenting! :confused:

My Bro & SIL used the 1-2-3 method with their 2 daughters. You know, if I count to 3 you are really going to "get it". Of course they counted to 3 many times and seldom backed up the 'get it".
When my youngest niece was 2-3 years old she went to bed willingly & only wanted someone to be with her till she fell asleep. So one night she came to the den to tell us she was sleeply & needed someone to be there with her. We kept talking & she came back at least 3 times.
In frustration she came, once again to the door, looked at 4 adults as only a child can and said in a very serious tone - "Thats one!" Yes we did go a sit the child so she could sleep and we never made her wait that long again.

The threat of the belt or one smack across the rear-end will make believers out of most kids. As the 5 kids in my family have all attested - we asked for every whipping we received. Mom or Dad told us we would receive one if we continued our actions. . . we did. . . they did.

Dispatcher

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:21 PM

And this is where complete lack of understanding of child development comes in. If YOU had kids with perfect impulse control, I think you got lucky. 99% of the parents do not.

I am not going to punish my child because you don't want to hear a peep out of him at a restaurant. I don't really want to feel your glaring nasty eyes on me as you disapprove of my parenting either, but I'm not telling you to stay home.

My kids peep. They run. They sometimes mess up. Nope, not making them stay home because some cranky adult doesn't want to be bothered by extra noise. If you don't like it, you can stay home.

We're not talking about "extra noise". We're talking about stealing and sneaking. Since your children don't fit in the stealing & sneaking category, most, if not all of this stuff doesn't apply to you!

Oops! wrong thread!!!!

Sakura

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:24 PM

I have one of those "strong willed" children... You would think he was let to have his own way and that we have never tried to teach him self control... He is a defiant, adventurous, curious, spirited, and always into something... I'd sarcastically say he was raised in a barn... but he really pretty much was. He has more energy than he knows what to do with, but as his mind catches up to his body things are kind of coming around (he just turned four, is the size of a six year old... is intellectually advanced for his age ie. can tell time... counts to 100... but is still emotionally a four year old... and his impulse control could use some work).

MY issue is that I can't find another adult that will put their foot down and back me up. Gone are the days when a child can be admonished by an adult other than his/her parents (not to mention public discipline... I dare you to raise your voice to a child in public, or God forbid threaten a spanking :rolleyes:)... If my son knocks down a flower pot and breaks it I don't want to hear you say "It's alright, he's just being a rambunctious little boy." I want to hear you say to him... "I'm disappointed that you weren't paying attention. Please pick up the mess you made and help me replant my flowers."

My boy knows what time-out is, he also knows what a swift swat on the butt feels like... sure wish more parents today would spend less time trying to be friends to their children and step up and parent them.

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:26 PM

And this is the kind of attitude that has produced the current crop of young adults who feel they are entitled to everything. They never heard no and they were taught that other people's lives don't matter, only their own. They were also taught that the world owes them their happiness.

There is one reason I am happy about this recession we are in. It is going to be a huge wake up call for millions of people who think the world centers around them. The government is too broke to save the self-absorbed from themselves and for once they are getting or going to get the discipline their childhoods were lacking.

Actually- I STRONGLY beg to differ. Most of our current economic hardship is certainly not generated by young adults but rather OLDER adults. Men and woman who have shown no restraint and all the greed over the past few decades. And look at the mess left to these young adults.

We should progress as a society. Corporal punishment is faux pas because, well it's unhealthy and one of the least effective ways of teaching a child. With dog or horse training- you don't beat the shit out of the animal to get the point across.

As to the attitude to stay home that Ambrey mentioned. Absolutely I agree with her. If a singular person cannot mentally handle the outside influences bestowed upon them in public- behaved or unbehave children and or other adults. Then maybe for your mental safety you *should* stay home. "Public" means.... drum roll please... being around other people.

No child is perfectly behaved and sure as heck there are plenty of adults who are not behaved. If you go with the theory that brats grow up to be brats, then we should certainly have many more angelic adults!

Arizona DQ

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:29 PM

There is a difference between a busy mom with not enough hands, and the mom who comes to the barn, rides, while leaving her kid playing barefoot in the arena dirt, who tries to feed all the horses and is COMPLETELY unsupervised at about age 5. Or leaves him in the truck.

That just reminded me of a woman who used to board at my old barn. She had two brats and she was no Rhodes Scholar either. She once left both her kids in her car while she rode... When she got ready to leave her car would not start - her kids had cut every wire under the dashboard of her VW!!!!! :lol:

Mozart

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:31 PM

My Bro & SIL used the 1-2-3 method with their 2 daughters. You know, if I count to 3 you are really going to "get it". Of course they counted to 3 many times and seldom backed up the 'get it".
When my youngest niece was 2-3 years old she went to bed willingly & only wanted someone to be with her till she fell asleep. So one night she came to the den to tell us she was sleeply & needed someone to be there with her. We kept talking & she came back at least 3 times.
In frustration she came, once again to the door, looked at 4 adults as only a child can and said in a very serious tone - "Thats one!" Yes we did go a sit the child so she could sleep and we never made her wait that long again.

The threat of the belt or one smack across the rear-end will make believers out of most kids. As the 5 kids in my family have all attested - we asked for every whipping we received. Mom or Dad told us we would receive one if we continued our actions. . . we did. . . they did.

Back up is the key. I don't agree with corporal punishment but there does need to be a back up. I count to five. At five there is a consequence but it is not physical. But there has to be a consequence.

Little story...dropped YMM off at before school daycare, he dropped his back pack on the ground and took off to play. I asked him to come pick it up and put in locker..no response. I caught his eye, silently mouthing the countdown and holding my fingers up to represent the number I was at. One of the workers, a mature woman and mother herself, watched me. (No pressure :eek:) Son saw finger #3 go up and scuttled over to pick up back pack. Day care worker nodded and said "wow, I've never seen that work so well".

I am sure there are some children for whom adult disapproval is enough to back up the evil eye. Mine is not one of them ;)

ZiggyStardust

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:35 PM

I don't have a comment on hostility against kids on the board, because I haven't noticed much of that, but if a haul-in rider's unsupervised kid (and sometimes he and his buddy) who is old enough to know better is running down the isleway and climbing and standing on the sides of the arena when I am rehabbing my stall-bound horse, putting everyone in danger, they deserve to be yelled at and publicly embarassed. This was a few years ago. There is no accounting for stupid in this world, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with it, I don't care if you're 10 or 40.

fooler

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:40 PM

Back up is the key. I don't agree with corporal punishment but there does need to be a back up. I count to five. At five there is a consequence but it is not physical. But there has to be a consequence.

Little story...dropped YMM off at before school daycare, he dropped his back pack on the ground and took off to play. I asked him to come pick it up and put in locker..no response. I caught his eye, silently mouthing the countdown and holding my fingers up to represent the number I was at. One of the workers, a mature woman and mother herself, watched me. (No pressure :eek:) Son saw finger #3 go up and scuttled over to pick up back pack. Day care worker nodded and said "wow, I've never seen that work so well".

I am sure there are some children for whom adult disapproval is enough to back up the evil eye. Mine is not one of them ;)

You are correct the evil eye will work, provided there has a consequence for the child. We received the evil eye far more than anything. The handful of 'spankings' we received, some more some less, were when all else had failed.
Also spanking tends to work with most up to a certain age, then it is better to reason or remove priviledges. Another of my nieces, there are a total of 11 nieces & nephews and around 16 'great' at last count, blew off spankings. But melted like a puddle when you raised your voice.
There are many roads to Rome.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:41 PM

We should progress as a society. Corporal punishment is faux pas because, well it's unhealthy and one of the least effective ways of teaching a child.

And yet, the societies with the harshest corporal/capital punishment laws, have the least crime, and lowest rate of recidivism. Go figure.

With dog or horse training- you don't beat the shit out of the animal to get the point across.

So far, you're the only one that's mentioned beating the shit out of anything. Freudian slip, perhaps?

As to the attitude to stay home that Ambrey mentioned. Absolutely I agree with her. If a singular person cannot mentally handle the outside influences bestowed upon them in public- behaved or unbehave children and or other adults. Then maybe for your mental safety you *should* stay home. "Public" means.... drum roll please... being around other people.

Yes, being around other people - not ill-behaved hellspawn who haven't yet achieved that status. :p

No child is perfectly behaved and sure as heck there are plenty of adults who are not behaved. If you go with the theory that brats grow up to be brats, then we should certainly have many more angelic adults!

Your analogy is faulty - the children who grow to be angelic adults have to be angelic to begin with. This thread is about the dearth of such children. Read for comprehension, please.

Schune

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:43 PM

Sure!

That after I said that occasionally, while learning to behave, a child will misbehave.

No, sweets, I meant this:

Of course. But if you listen to people here, the fact that you weren't perfectly behaved from birth means nobody should have let you out of the house.

So if you could point out where exactly someone has said that if children make one mistake, they warrant being chained to a bed :)

That's the way you seem to interprete just about everything.

Sporthorse Shop

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:48 PM

Actually- I STRONGLY beg to differ. Most of our current economic hardship is certainly not generated by young adults but rather OLDER adults. Men and woman who have shown no restraint and all the greed over the past few decades. And look at the mess left to these young adults.

We should progress as a society. Corporal punishment is faux pas because, well it's unhealthy and one of the least effective ways of teaching a child. With dog or horse training- you don't beat the shit out of the animal to get the point across.

As to the attitude to stay home that Ambrey mentioned. Absolutely I agree with her. If a singular person cannot mentally handle the outside influences bestowed upon them in public- behaved or unbehave children and or other adults. Then maybe for your mental safety you *should* stay home. "Public" means.... drum roll please... being around other people.

No child is perfectly behaved and sure as heck there are plenty of adults who are not behaved. If you go with the theory that brats grow up to be brats, then we should certainly have many more angelic adults!

Please reread, because I didn't say the young people caused the recession. I said people (which means any age) that are self-absorbed are going to benefit from the lessons this recession will teach. And yes, some who are not self-absorbed are going to get hit by the lessons, however that is life and its not fair. The only reason I mentioned the recession is because if it is continues to hit hard, people are going to have to change their self-entitlement attitudes, young or old. I see it already in hiring stories. The self-absorbed kid coming out of college who thought a high five figure job would be handed to him because his parents kept telling him how great and perfect he was, is unemployed and no one is interested him. That is a hard dose of reality and he will learn to become humble and accept any job that comes his way. I hope that today's parents, who are creating these self-absorbed kids, and are now facing financial woes will wake up and see what the entitlement attitude has done to society. Hopefully they will rethink their child rearing and realize that creating these little princes and princesses hurts their childrens' futures.

Regarding "corporal punishment", it is highly effective in the right circumstances. You better believe I will beat the living daylights out of a horse or dog that bites or goes to bite me. I want to make sure they never do it again. And yes, a young child who has willfully disobeyed a parent will benefit from a spanking. There isn't much else that a young child is going to understand. ETA, there is a huge difference between beating the living daylights out of something and a spanking. The former would only be used in highly potentially dangerous circumstances. Most people have probably never received that kind of beating. Though, I can tell you one story where it was effective. A male friend of mine was a bit willful as an under 10 yr old child when it came to girls. His father warned him he would receive the ultimate beating if he continued. Well he did and he received the ultimate beating which left him with a sore bottom that he couldn't sit on for a few days. Needless to say he never did it again and is an "angelic" adult.

fordtraktor

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:49 PM

http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/index.html

Start here.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Fabulous, thanks for sharing!

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:51 PM

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Fabulous, thanks for sharing!

Wow, I didn't know anyone but me spread that website around. Its HILARIOUS!

Huntertwo

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:52 PM

That just reminded me of a woman who used to board at my old barn. She had two brats and she was no Rhodes Scholar either. She once left both her kids in her car while she rode... When she got ready to leave her car would not start - her kids had cut every wire under the dashboard of her VW!!!!! :lol:

HAAAAAA......That must have been hilarious!

My sister had something similar happen with a bratty kid of hers. Only her daughter punched a bunch of holes in the dash board with a pen...:eek:

Then another time, same daughter took the stuffing out of her winter jacket and stuffed it into the ignition so my sister couldn't get the key in.:cool:

Pirateer

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:53 PM

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:54 PM

Except that sometimes, all they need to know is that their behavior isn't meeting expectations.

Are you sure you actually have kids? Because I can't imagine anyone with child experience making that statement and being serious about it. :lol:

Huntertwo

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:55 PM

And this is the kind of attitude that has produced the current crop of young adults who feel they are entitled to everything. They never heard no and they were taught that other people's lives don't matter, only their own. They were also taught that the world owes them their happiness.

There is one reason I am happy about this recession we are in. It is going to be a huge wake up call for millions of people who think the world centers around them. The government is too broke to save the self-absorbed from themselves and for once they are getting or going to get the discipline their childhoods were lacking.

I propose that there should be "leash laws" for children. If my dog has to be well-behaved in public and on a leash so that society can go on its merry way without being aggravated, then I should be offered the same courtesy. Maybe if these parents were being fined for ill-behaved children that are being public nuisances, they would actually train the child. My parents used paddles and belts for discipline and it made a strong impression on us kids. They were able to take us to restaurants without any problems, because we knew there would be hell to pay if we acted up. We all achieved academic greatness, financial stability and are socially sound productive citizens. Just more proof that spanking and strict discipline are great parental tools.

To make this HR related - when I started horseback lessons, my parents quickly discovered that they could use the act of taking away my lessons as an extremely effective discipline method. Discipline does evolve as the child matures and can grasp more advanced concepts. Reasoning with a 5 year old is beyond silly, whereas reasoning with a teen MAY be possible.

Sooo agree with you. :yes:

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 06:59 PM

And yet, the societies with the harshest corporal/capital punishment laws, have the least crime, and lowest rate of recidivism.

So far, you're the only one that's mentioned beating the shit out of anything. Freudian slip, perhaps?

Yes, being around other people - not ill-behaved hellspawn who haven't yet achieved that status. :p

Your analogy is faulty - the children who grow to be angelic adults have to be angelic to begin with. This thread is about the dearth of such children. Read for comprehension, please.

Hmmm- you sound confused. Maybe try that comprehension thing a little yourself.

Corporal punishment as in punishing children. Not the laws of a country. And such type of punishment for children proven one of the least effective. Do a little internet research- plenty of studies out there to wrap your noggin around.

But alas it is a mute point to discuss to the children haters as like beauty is in the eye of the beholder- so must be behavior.

nuts4cowboybutts

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:01 PM

Some children are absolute delights to be around. Others are absolute brats. Most of the time the parents are the diifference although I have seen some good parents who have one very bad child in the family, - some sort of mental syndome or something?

Some of this child centered parenting has led to raising brats by hovering parents who are non-confrontational with their children and never let them suffer the consequences of their actions. When a child gets in trouble in the neighborhood or at school, those parents will usually deny that it is the child's fault and blame it on others. They are in denial and the children find out early that nothing is going to happen when they act bad.

Those kids are protected from failing or making mistakes by parents who always find a way to blame somebody, something, some organization, some school, some teacher etc. Those kids never have to "face the music."

Those smothering parents protect the child's self esteem by never correcting or saying "no". What a load of manure. Children shouldn't have to feel good all the time. They need to know there will be success and failures in life and you have to learn through life's lesson.

I hate to go out to dinner at a nice restaurant and have a screaming child who screams during the whole meal with a high pitched voice which could shatter crystal. And the parents watch them throw crackers and food on the floor and seem to ignore it all.

On the other hand, sometimes we'll see very well behaved children using good manners and having a nice conversation with their parents at a table. I try to go by that table when I leave and give those children and parents a compliment about their nice manners and behavior.

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:01 PM

Are you sure you actually have kids? Because I can't imagine anyone with child experience making that statement and being serious about it. :lol:

And you wouldn't understand what she meant because you don't have children...

ToiRider

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:24 PM

http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/index.html

Start here.

I checked out the website, and I love it!!! Parents are NOT thinking to clearly when it comes to naming their kids really strange names or really popular names. Don't they realize that these poor kids are going to be teaching people to pronounce their names for the rest of their lives or are going to be looking up every time someone calls out Kaitlin to the 14 Kaitlins in the room?

I am a teacher, and learning the names of the current crop of children is an unbelievably hard task, especially since I have to do it 3 times a year (we are on the trimester schedule). This year I had a Kinesha, Stanisha, and Kebrina all sitting in the same short row (alphabetical last names). I had never heard of any of these names before, and the girls would get MAD if I got their name wrong. I have 12 weeks to learn the names of 120 kids, then its on to the next group. If I can't remember a girl's name, odds are good her name is Kaitlin, Meagan, Madison or Jessica. I am seriously thinking about calling the kids by their last names next year.

I am sure that having people mispronounce their name on a daily basis must wear on a child and impact their behavior. I had one student with the last name of Herbert. He insisted on the French pronunciation, which is much prettier than the American version. I remembered to use the correct pronunciation only after being on the receiving end of a lot of scowls.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:31 PM

Hmmm- you sound confused. Maybe try that comprehension thing a little yourself.

I'm not the one confused.

Corporal punishment as in punishing children. Not the laws of a country.

Many countries employ corporal punishment as ways to enforce laws. Don't you remember the incident of the American kid that got caned down in Singapore? It was nearly an international incident. Kid broke the law ("kid" referring to a young adult - 18) convicted of theft and vandalism. and according to the laws of the country, the punishment was caning. The US government got involved, trying to get the kid off, even though everyone acknowledged he was guilty. The country's government didn't back down, and the kid got caned along with all the other felons who merited the same punishment. I applauded until my hands hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

And such type of punishment for children proven one of the least effective. Do a little internet research- plenty of studies out there to wrap your noggin around.

I don't deal in theory, thanks. I deal in reality, unlike some on this board. And in reality, there's not a kid on this planet that would grow up to be a decent adult if it didn't get a swat on the behind every now and then. You need to get a reality check.

But alas it is a mute point to discuss to the children haters as like beauty is in the eye of the beholder- so must be behavior.

No, it is a moot point to discuss child rearing with child haters. But that's not what's being discussed here, and if you had decent reading comprehension, you'd know that. So it is a moot point for me to waste further typing time on you. Carry on. :cool:

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:39 PM

And in reality, there's not a kid on this planet that would grow up to be a decent adult if it didn't get a swat on the behind every now and then.

I didn't get spanked. Ever.

But I also eat adorable baby puppies and pick my teeth with the bones of babies. So whatever.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:40 PM

So you just gonna talk about your diet, or are you gonna share? :p

Paragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:44 PM

So you just gonna talk about your diet, or are you gonna share? :p

But... but they're so juicy...

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:47 PM

The original question was WHY that anti-kid attitude?

I had some ideas in past posts, here's one more:

I think parents don't do the thorough job some of us might like because they are tired. Now that every man, woman and child has a formal job, I see parents over-looking a lot of bad behavior because they are "picking their battles" and picking fewer of them (so far as we can tell from the outside) because raising the kids is just one of the things on the "to do" list.

Of course raising the perfect, Harvard-bound prodigy is also now expected. So by the time you get home for karate, the tutor and (dammit) ride your own horse, deal with work and maybe your marriage (plus your picture-perfect house), you are just willing to let lots of sh!te slide when you and kiddling finally get to a restaurant at 9 pm for dinner. Good luck with that.

Remember that the adults of the past couple of generations were basked in the glory as well as escalating expectations invited by the amazing economic growth after World War II. In my parents' case, they were disciplined as kids and given a pretty clear set of rules. But they were perhaps coddled, too, protected from anything too harsh by their own Depression-era parents who knew real privation and unfairness, and naturally wanted to protect their own from the same.

ESG

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:55 PM

:winkgrin::cool::winkgrin::cool:But... but they're so juicy...

:cool::winkgrin::cool::winkgrin:

Bluey

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:56 PM

My opinion, for what is worth, is that the parents and the environment the parents provide makes good kids.
Our dog club has some families with kids that participate from the time they are little in all and as soon as they are old enough, have their own dog to train and train right along with the adults.
Those kids also are helping with everything else, setting up chairs or whatever needs to be done, help at shows with small chores and are given larger responsabilities as they get older.
By the time they are almost adults, they are helping and even running some at the shows and doing an excellent job of it, as they know about how everything runs better than most adults.
This year three day agility show secretary was one of our 18 year olds and she did a tremendous job.
She had been assisting for several years, so it was time to do it by herself.
We were very proud of her.:cool:

There is a very clear difference when families and their kids come to watch at our shows and they can't hardly keep their kids under control in all that excitement.

The same with many kids in barns that have serious chores and are kept busy.
I think that when kids are left to fend for and entertain themselves in a place like a barn, they at times will find some to do that makes good sense right then, but was not the best idea, really.

As long as kids have some responsabilities, they will grow up knowing they really have to watch around them, not just be impulsive and do whatever they want, not seeing that some may be bothering others.

Ambrey

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:56 PM

I don't deal in theory, thanks. I deal in reality, unlike some on this board. And in reality, there's not a kid on this planet that would grow up to be a decent adult if it didn't get a swat on the behind every now and then. You need to get a reality check.

Mmmhmmm. Extremely, 100% incorrect. Theory is based on research, and research has proven quite the opposite.

I'll have to let my kids know they are doomed, however, because we do not spank. And next time they are not running around like hooligans in the restaurant, I will have to tell them it's not really happening, because we don't yell at them or spank them ;)

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:58 PM

I don't deal in theory, thanks. I deal in reality, unlike some on this board. And in reality, there's not a kid on this planet that would grow up to be a decent adult if it didn't get a swat on the behind every now and then. You need to get a reality check.

There is a very strong reason why corporal punishment is on the decline in the US and across the globe. But there is plenty to read on the internet.

Many people are forgetting here... children aren't born with an operational manual attached. Parents are human beings that learn from experience as well. So why get wrapped up in angst over a couple misbehaved child.ren If you so feel inclined to chime up to the parents about a particular inicident- by all means. If their life, your life, or an animals life is in jeapordy- well you have a reason to interfere obviously but it's not doomsday for society. Doesn't mean that the parent is deadbeat or an idiot or a push over if they have a child that misbehaves rarely, occasional, or all the time. Have a wee bit of compassion- there could be countless number of reasons- of which you could hardly know just by fleeting observation.

And a bad kid doesn't mean a bad adult for the future.

mkevent

Jun. 11, 2009, 07:58 PM

I will preface this with the one and only time (so far) I've been snarked(is that the word?) on CoTH is when I made the comment that a person's priorities change when that person becomes a parent. I was shocked that someone would take an innocent comment so out of context and call me on the carpet for it, but after a few PMs, I realized that particular person really had a hot button regarding parents/children. Lesson learned.
I think people on this board are going to be a bit more safety conscious because we realize how inherently unsafe life can be and do our best to prevent accidents. Unruly dogs, children and horses are accidents waiting to happen. I don't think CoTH readers hate children any more than they hate clueless horse or dog owners-because that person's stupidity puts others' safety in jeopardy.
I have 2 daughters (now 17 and 20). I did the leash thing on my oldest(she was 3 and her sister was an infant) and I got very disapproving looks and a few barks from strangers when I took my girls to the mall!
We all need to respect each others space and privacy and if you need to remove your children from a situation when they are VERY disruptive to others (restaurant or movies, not so much grocery store) then you do so.
I would never bring my children to a barn and expect others to watch them-that is ridiculous!! If you cannot be sure of your child's safety, do not put them in that situation!
I think the difference is whether or not the parents TRY to teach their children. As a parent, you accept that you will make mistakes and sometimes you won't realize the consequences of your actions until years later. I've made some less than stellar choices but I've always tried to do what I thought was right.
I think most people here would be understanding if the parents looked like they were attempting to impart some values and manners in their children.
We tend to forgive those who try to do the right thing vs those who just don't give a darn.

SuperSTB

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:02 PM

Mmmhmmm. Extremely, 100% incorrect. Theory is based on research, and research has proven quite the opposite.

I'll have to let my kids know they are doomed, however, because we do not spank. And next time they are not running around like hooligans in the restaurant, I will have to tell them it's not really happening, because we don't yell at them or spank them ;)

:winkgrin:I have doomed children too...

Jaegermonster

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:07 PM

Trakehner

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:14 PM

JRG

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:15 PM

I don't have children, and it was by choice. That being said I don't want bratty children around me either.

I am very fortunate that for the most part, at my barn the kids are well behaved and for the most part are respectful of my time like they are their own. I credit the parents we have (which are always involved) and the coaches for setting the tone for the barn.

I did find out recently that my great, great, great, great grandfather was married in england at the age of Thirteen (to an older women). Kind of makes me wonder if we are doing the right thing in regards to developing our youth? I get that it was a different time...but really, we keep reining back responsibility and accountability when does it end? Anyone see that really bad movie named "Idiocracy"?

(p.s. I am not advocating child marriage)

twofatponies

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:18 PM

mvp

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:24 PM

OMG! I hate that!

To the parent who exclaims: "Cherish my spawn because he/she might cure cancer, saving your sorry a$$,"

I say: "Not terribly likely if you think everyone ought to bend over to him/her now. It takes a certain amount of altruism, self-discipline (not to mention opportunity, desire and intelligence) to get so far as to even study cancer."

I think parents are confusing their adoration of their kid with everyone's presumed adoration of same. We all can be pleasant to your kid, and even step in to keep him or her save should that be necessary at a barn or wherever. But we are not obligated to really dig your kid. Conversely, not digging your kid as much as you do doesn't mean we don't dig the kid enough as is appropriate.

Snapdragon

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:25 PM

I like kids....

I hate Yard Apes, Birth Control Failures, Screaming little bastards, Spoiled Brats, Princesses, Mewing Meatloafs, Demanding Princes, Whining Wastes of Skin, Afterbirths Being Raised as if they were People, Parents who refuse to parent, Oblivious Jerks bringing their failures where they don't belong, Parents with entitlement demands who think their brats are special and everyone should put up with them.

As one woman said, "My child may cure cancer" to which I got to reply, "Oh, he's going to be a lab animal?"

As I said, I like kids...just not free range kids where they don't belong....the other adults get to choose whether the kids belong or not, not the self-centred parent.

I don't always agree with you, but that was seriously hilarious!

I like kids a lot, but I do think there is strange hostility on this board sometimes about them. My friend's mom made the funniest comment about raising children: "A little fear goes a long way." I don't know how my parents did it, but I wasn't fearful, or maybe I was; I, and my three older brothers, just knew somehow when to behave. Of course, we also knew when we could get away with stuff--when Mom and Dad weren't around! I think back then, though, other parents weren't so guarded in correcting children who weren't thers.

Also, one of friends who has two kids who are now in college (I've known them since they were two and three) would always say to me: If my kids are bothering you, just say so. I know I think they are adorable, but if you find them annoying, feel free to say so. And she really meant it.

To make this horse-related, I've really liked all the kids at any barn where I boarded. But their parents were always very involved. And when the parents weren't there, the good parenting showed.

Casey09

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:35 PM

Well, just like with adults, I like some kids a lot better than others. I don't hate or even dislike children, but it does bother me when parents allow their kids to pretty much run wild. I don't mind if a child screams or cries in a restaurant; I do mind when the parents continue eating as though nothing is wrong. It isn't that I want them to spank or beat or berate their child - I just want them to remove him or her! Likewise, you really can't come to the barn and ride with young children because you can't manage the horse and a young child that still needs supervision. I don't mind if people bring young kids - it is when they just go about their business and leave the kids to bother others that it is annoying.
Most of the time, I'm not bothered by kids. Sometimes, I absolutely am. I had a couple of acquaintances come over with their 5 year old son. They literally sat down to talk while the kid was running all of the house, spilling is drink and dropping Cheerios crumbs. In my opinion, you just don't do that outside of your own home. If you aren't prepared to actually get UP and watch your child, then you shouldn't be taking him out.

lcw579

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:48 PM

It might not fly here, but when I was in Brazil a few years ago I saw an eye-popper at an upscale shopping mall. A kid-check. I kid you not. You hand over your kid, they slap an ID bracelet on him or her, and the kid is turned loose in a heavily supervised enclosed playland. When you've finished your long and arduous shopping, you show your ID and pick up your kid. :D

They had that at a mall around here ages ago. Unfortunately it was long before I had kids but I do remember "checking in" my sister's daughter for a stay or two before the business folded. ;)

Ikea also has a version. However, I found that they wouldn't keep your kids long enough to make it worth it although mine loved getting the chance to go in and play.

RoyalTRider

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:49 PM

I'm not naturally a child person. I don't like dealing with them. I can, it's just not something I'm passionate about.

However- when I see a badly misbehaving five-year-old, I don't feel any of the anger that a few people hear say they feel towards the kid. The five-year-old doesn't know any better. They know what their parents teach them. They do not know that they upset others with their behaviour. Now, sometimes, parents try to teach their kids and it does not take. That's a separate issue. What I don't understand is anger towards a young child. If you must be angry, be angry with the parents. Personally... I feel sorry for the kids IF the parents do not care to correct them. They will have to learn the longer and harder way about unacceptable behaviour.

slc2

Jun. 11, 2009, 08:51 PM

I think the reason a lot of people here are so nasty about children is that they think parents are spoling children and not disciplining them. We hear 'in my day' a lot and how these days, things are so different and kids don't respect anything.

A misbehaving child is an affront and insult to these folks and they get really up in arms about kids misbehaving in public or doing something undesirable. I can't actually believe sometimes, how mad these folks get about this.

I am concerned that kids misbehave and grow up to be misbehaving adults. But I seriously doubt an onlooker swearing at the child or dragging him around is going to fix the problem.

Once a little girl was riding her bike and got confused as my dad pulled into our drive. She turned one way, got confused as my dad turned and tried to go the other way, turning the wheel too far and nearly falling. She was getting overwhelmed and blocking my dad's pulling in.

My dad leaned out of the window and said in a very calm, level voice, 'sometimes it's hard to know which way to go', and the little girl relaxed and was able to figure out what to do next. It isn't clear to me that getting very loud and screaming at kids teaches them a lot.

One incident that made the rounds was about a regionally well known trainer's little 4 yr old girl carrying some toys who bumped into a lady competitor. She said something fairly nasty, sending the little girl skittering off. To be honest, the lady was extremely high strung and regularly came unglued at shows, as well as at various barns, and the incident was just one more in a long series of outbursts the locals found extremely funny.

I think there are two main groups that do this. One is older single women who aren't around kids, and the other is the parents who have selective memories about how their own kids behaved and how their discipline was.

It seems to me a lot of single older women are extremely nasty about children. Very intolerant and unrealistically angry and resentful. I actually think that as some people age and their perception and hearing changes, they get less and less equipped to deal with kids. The noise grates on their ears and they get very querrelous about it. I also think people who are not around kids just get unused to them.

When I was young, it was not at all unusual for a kid to get a physical punishment, and what is often called abuse today, we were told, was 'decent parents raising their kids right'. Fashions change.

Studies today show that corporal punishment is bad. Studies in the past showed that corporal punishment was good, most likely, LOL. Studies show what people want them to show, and what the society approves of at the time, so I'm not bowled over when Ambrey says studies prove she raises her kids the right way and everyone else who disagrees with her opinion is wrong.

In fact, I believe the child care authors who say that healthy kids are raised both in somewhat permissive, and in somewhat strict environments, and that there is a fair amount of leeway in child rearing styles that turn out well. Something they taught us years ago in psychology courses in college, is that there is a 'normal continuum' and that not all people raise their children the same way, and surprisingly, things work themselves out in general.

Parents choose what matches their beliefs and the temperaments of their kids; rigid beliefs or bad past experiences can and do make parents make extreme choices at times.

parents today ARE actually in many instances, really very inconsiderate of others, and do allow their kids to run into people in public, be very rude and generally be a pain in the backside. I do see cases of that.

I don't think a kid should be going around taking hay and carrots from people at a show. But the mother may not even know it's going on, and she may not be so wealthy as to hire a nanny while she's at a horse show. Perhaps the teenage sister is supposed to be baby sitting, or Dad is not watching him too close.

Does an EIGHT year old know what stealing is? Perhaps, but if he sees mom at a boarding barn where everyone takes hay from the hay room, and other boarders have told him it's fine to take a carrot for his mom's horse, he may not realize it's different at a show.

I think the anger and resentment displayed by some here is way over the top. You are going to tell children how to act polite and hehave themselves by swearing at them or dragging them around by the arm and hurting them? Probably not.

'You are not allowed to take anyone's hay or carrots. Stop doing that.'

And when you see him again, yes, do ask the announcer to announce, 'Will the mother of the eight year old boy in the green and blue striped shirt and jeans, please collect her child. He is taking hay and carrots from competitor's tack stalls' on the PA system.