What am I doing wrong? This horse forgets everything!

[King's Ransom]

Sometimes I wonder if I am the thick-headed one around here. Some of you may remember Chester, the horse we "rescued" from neglectful neighbors? We have had dear-hearted Chester for about 6 weeks. He is navicular, and he does seem to have what I would call significant pain walking. We are working on it, but the old boy has good days and bad days.

Well, I am not sure that Chester was ever the brightest crayon in the box, but he certainly has been neglected for a long time. He was sad and lonely, depressed and ribby, not to mention lame when we got him. He is a happy boy now, very very loving, grateful for any and all attention, with a shiney coat and sparkley eye. But sometimes ... he seems extremely dull.

You see, they told us that Chester would not go into a barn, would not stay in a stall, etc. Well! We've got him coming into the barn just fine. And yes, I am spoiled that Eli and King are the geniuses of the equine world. (I swear either of them could program computers if they just had opposable thumbs!)

Well, Chester walks into the barn and EVERY. DAY. he turns to the right. He acts like he has never been in the barn before. Every. day. His stall is to the left. I shake the feed bucket. He looks at me like, "what is that?" and ambles over to the hay. I shake the feed bucket again, cluck at him and he walks in the general direction of the stall. Eventually, he sort of stumbles inside.

Going out? We have a set routine. He can't make it from his stall to the paddock without a halter and lead rope. He watches the others, we do the exact same thing every day ... but every day he acts as if he has NO IDEA what he is supposed to do. Tonight, even with a halter and lead rope, he would take a few steps, then stop and look around. And I mean, he seems genuinely puzzled. Not stubborn. Just like he has NO CLUE what is expected of him next.

Am I being too easy on him? Too hard? Too impatient? My goal would be that he would walk into the barn and go into his stall to eat, just like the others. And then, when finished, he would follow everybody outside. It works so nicely with the other two ... and I do remember it was not always so. Perhaps my memory is time-compressed and it took longer to teach the other two than I recall? Life was just so much more efficient before the horse-with-no-clue. ;)

(It's really okay, he's old and loving and I don't really mind explaining to him 5,000 times that it's time to go out. I just wonder if there is a better approach?)

[Ghazzu]

Have you checked his vision?

[sublimequine]

How old is he?

I've noticed with some of the very elderly horses (25+), I swear they get some senile issues. The oldster I care for will occasionally try and go into a stall he hasn't lived in for probably 10 years. When I try and gently coax him away from that stall, he gets quite insistent that no, that's HIS stall.

[AKB]

Be patient. He will eventually get it. He may be focused on watching the activities of the dominant horses and staying out of their way so he is not kicked or bitten. Eventually, he won't worry and will be able to figure out the family routine.

[King's Ransom]

Ghazzu, his vision seems fine and his eyes are clear. But that's a definite thought.

How old is he? Another excellent question. Neighbors said he was 20. Doc thinks closer to 30. Hard to tell.

I feel so bad for this horse. He is such a sweetheart, but I sort of think he is mentally damaged from spending so many years all alone. He was just left out in the field, no horse companions and no people companions. He spends about half of his time with King and Eli, and about half of his time alone. Eli doesn't run him off anymore and they can all hang out together just fine. But sometimes Chester needs his "alone" time, and you can see him way far away from everyone, all by himself.

He is totally bonded to David, and if he even catches a glimpse of his dad he will come a-running (well, a-walking pretty fast... well, sort of fast ... okay, a little faster than standing still).

[sk_pacer]

Yes, do check his vision - I have a horse with nice, bright clear eyes and he is almost as myopic as I am. He looks askance at a new bucket, has trouble finding things that blend into the background and starts at things that appear from nowhere - people, cats, horse eating weeds, moose, almost anything. In and out of the barn can be a real challenge for him some days, particularly if it is really bright out, or at night, if I miss one set of lights.

Give this boy time, and just be consistant. If his vision is defective, it just makes some things harder for him to learn - bucket placement, stall location and that can be really tricky if you have a light on in the stall or there is light in some other location that is a distraction, in short, most things. Once he gets used to things, never move anything, ever, in his stall. At any rate, as he has been ignored for so long, he needs to relearn many things, or at least try to remember them. Strict routine for in, out, feed is essential - not to say it must be done at the same time every day, but in the same way. He WILL eventually figure it out. Six weeks of good treatment and consistancy isn't really all that long in the scheme of things. His pain is probably also somewhat of a distraction at times and I would suspect that on his worst days. he is more gimpy than on his better days.

Having to be led in and out isn't all that bad - maybe, in his former life prior to where you got him. in and out with a halter and rope may have been all he knew, and isnt used to navigation on his own to and from his stall or corral/pasture...it does happen.

[pintopiaffe]

awww.... :sadsmile:

I would suspect both vision and/or senility issues. And he may have long term effects from isolation. Certainly humans do. I don't know of any studies with horses, but there have been enough on humans isolated/solitary confinement etc. :(

You are so kind.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Going from bright light to shadow or shadow to light, can be difficult for horses, because their eyes don't contract and dilate as quickly as ours do.

[Seven-up]

Well, at least you can blame it on his age.

My jr horse had the memory of a goldfish. If she had a fishbowl and a little plastic castle, she would have gone in circles, going, "Ooooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, where'd that castle come from?":lol:

I bought her as a 3 year old, and sold her at 6, and every day was like starting from scratch. I have no idea how we made it as far as we did.

[nightsong]

If he indeed is upset (worried about other horses) or just attracted to the right side of the barn (visible FOOD? Hay?) that could explain it. You've been able to see the horse in other situations and know if this is "normal" for him type of behavior.

[nightsong]

Going from bright light to shadow or shadow to light, can be difficult for horses, because their eyes don't contract and dilate as quickly as ours do.

Maybe he has particularly poor vision in the "dark" and that is why he wouldn't go into barns before. In that case, you've made STELLAR trust progress!!

[Skeezix]

KR

Let me start by saying how much I have enjoyed following your posts about Chester. You are my hero :)

I think horses are like people in that they tend to favor one side/direction over the other, right handed? I'll bet he is trying to please that he just shuffles the wrong way. He may just need to be escorted in and out--probably likes the extra touch too :)

If he was a person he would probably still be pinching himself saying "is this heavenly place and love really real?"

[kookicat]

Aww :sadsmile:

I bet at some point, he's lived in a barn like yours and has gone back to that now he's getting looked after well.

Maybe teach him a left/right cue? Tell him 'Left' every time you take him in. Be worth a try.

Bless you for taking him on. :yes:

[Chief2]

It sounds like Chester simply can't see out of his left eye. If uveitis has been brewing in there, the outer appearance of the eye itself doesn't have to look odd for that to be the issue. He can see out of the right side, so that is where he goes. He doesn't see the things on the left side, so they simply don't exist. Hence, he turns right each and every time he enters the barn. Or he comes out of the stall, somewhat looky each and every time. Or he 'window shops' on the trail, with the head scanning left and right over the width of the trail as he travels along. (Some do this, others don't. Mine didn't, a friend's did.) All perfectly logical. My horse and I lived with this for years, and the outer appearance of his eye never changed. He was very smart, too. Just vision-compromised.

This is an incredible bonus on the trail. No predators ever exist on the left side. No snakes, no spooky rocks, no hikers or cyclists...hell, the deer don't even exist. So the horse just marches right along! You just have to watch for holes and unexpected tree roots, and keep the speed to a dull roar.

Not only would I get a vet to do the vision exam, I would take it a step further and get a veterinary ophthalmologist to check him out. In the interim, I would walk on the side of him that you know has good vision, as they spook away from things, and will take you out if you are walking on the side with compromised vision. Here is the link to the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists. They have a veterinary ophthalmologist locator page on their site. www.acvo.com (http://www.acvo.com)

Good luck with your horse! :)

[King's Ransom]

Chief2 -- that is a very good theory. If it proves true, it would explain a lot of things.

[ESG]

Well, at least you can blame it on his age.

My jr horse had the memory of a goldfish. If she had a fishbowl and a little plastic castle, she would have gone in circles, going, "Ooooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, where'd that castle come from?":lol:

OMGiH - I just irrevocably sprayed my keyboard with coffee! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Chief2]

It's not a theory. I have had 3 apps with eye problems. The first had uveitis in the left eye. His best friend (our app #2) had a detached retina in the right eye. Their solution to grazing in a large field with 60 other horses running around them was to graze together so the compromised eye of each horse was to the inside, and the good eye of each horse was to the outside. Their idea, not mine. They were never bothered by antics in the herd. It was a stroke of genius, in my opinion, so we trailered them that way, too. Load the bombproof horse first, then add the buddy, good eyes to the outside.

I am now on app number three with trauma damage in his left eye that was there when I bought him. His stall is on the right, so that is not a problem, but each time he comes out of the stall, we have to take extra time for him to survey his surroundings until he feels comfortable that there are no predators in the neighborhood, and then he will go out into the pasture. He has joined up with several horses who help to take care of him on his compromised side as well. When leading him in chaotic situations, or on the ground waiting to mount in those situations, stay on the right side of him, or he will travel 4 and a half feet to the left through the air and take you out if he is startled or frightened. Farrier work had to be adjusted so he could stand and see the aisle to his advantage, and that way he remains calm for trims. The vet works on him in his stall.

All apps werevet-prescribed UV flymasks to wear throughout the entire year, and MSM (1 gram per day) daily to lower inflammation within the eye itself.

[Lori B]

SevenUp, that was hysterical.

KR, I think you are getting great input. I had another thought.

You have said that Chester has been a bit neglected in the past few years, and has been pretty much left to stand in his field. I would think that the dearth of interaction and stimulation in his day, combined with age, would easily make him not a quick learner. Don't the gerontologists say (of humans) that if we don't use our mental faculties, we lose 'em, or at least, they atrophy from underuse?

I love to hear of your work with him. He sounds like a love.

So would someone tell me how exactly one assesses equine eyesight? I mean, the obvious thing is to cover one eye and wave your hand around in sight of the other, to see if the eye tracks the motion. But I'm thinking one can do better than that, right?

[Chief2]

OMGiH - I just irrevocably sprayed my keyboard with coffee! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Me, too!

[Chief2]

[quote=Lori B;4158158]

"So would someone tell me how exactly one assesses equine eyesight? I mean, the obvious thing is to cover one eye and wave your hand around in sight of the other, to see if the eye tracks the motion. But I'm thinking one can do better than that, right?"

You get a vet to check inside with both the flashlight and the slit lamp, or you just go on to the ophthalmologist. They can see inside where we cannot.

[monstrpony]

I think you're on to something with the vision issues, but beyond that, in terms of long-term behavior change, you're just in the nanosecond range in terms of time. I have an older fellow, mid- to late-teens probably, don't know for sure, but he clearly has been kept in some--shall we say--unnatural circumstances. It has been slow for him to adapt to and learn new routines; I've had him almost three years now. He's very uncomfortable in large or tight groups of horses, leading me to think he was kept alone or isolated in some way, and his social skills are weak. He is improving, but it is just slow for some things. I would guess that Chester is much worse off than my guy was. It will simply take patience and consistent persistence. And get the vision thing checked out, too.

[Nes]

Is it possible there are some neurologic problems?
(if he has a tumour of some sort that could affect his vision with out there being a problem with his eye or explain the memory loss).

[TBMaggie]

Son't neglect thinking about possible Cushing's on Chester. A tumor on the pituatary gland can make an old horse act senile - - my old guy was 32 when he started acting 'funny.' He'd get the 'dumb look' ie Who are you again??' and he'd walk around sometimes with his head/neck low like he was navigating the world by 'smell' rather than sight. He also had the long hair coat, and had lost most of his muscle mass - looked like a starvation case.

You are very kind to be Chester's friend - I've missed your other posts about him, so hope this hasn't already been checked out.

[Quin]

And if the vision checks out OK, I'd just call it a cross between the isolation and age. Our Old Geezer does pretty well, but it took a good 2 years before he stopped getting "lost" 4 or 5 mornings a week in one corner of the south pasture, instead of following the other horses back to the barn for breakfast.

[Seven-up]

Glad y'all enjoyed my "special" mare story. I have a million of them. (Sorry about your keyboards, though.) She's the same one who liked to fall down for fun. And once, as a 3 year old, she got her head stuck in a tree, and instead of freaking and breaking her neck, she just stood there for about 9 hours, like, "ho hum. Someone will come get me eventually." So the goldfish brain was beneficial plenty of times. She probably had no idea how long she was standing there. I suppose she could have been having conversations with the Keebler Elves, too.


Sorry to derail. The eye thing sounds plausible.

[AnotherRound]

OMG, 7up, that is the funniest story about the not too bright mare. I'd love to hear more some day.

don't have anything to offer about chester, except it ocured to me that people isolated or neglected take some time to trust and feel safe again, and he might not be used to realizeing that something might actually change and be better or different for him

My heart just goes out to him, so happy you are caring for him, now. Lucky, lucky boy.

Chester. Good name.

[LSM1212]

Glad y'all enjoyed my "special" mare story. I have a million of them. (Sorry about your keyboards, though.) She's the same one who liked to fall down for fun. And once, as a 3 year old, she got her head stuck in a tree, and instead of freaking and breaking her neck, she just stood there for about 9 hours, like, "ho hum. Someone will come get me eventually." So the goldfish brain was beneficial plenty of times. She probably had no idea how long she was standing there. I suppose she could have been having conversations with the Keebler Elves, too.


Sorry to derail. The eye thing sounds plausible.

Okay, I was trying to pull myself together after your first post (laughing so hard I was crying)... and then you posted this. It's all over for me... I'll be worth nothing the rest of the day. :lol:

Only because my horse can be the same way sometimes... no matter how many times he sees the same thing in the ring, he still has to give it the googly eye. And even after you pass it 5-6 times... he still has to "look" at it. ;) He's pretty smart actually but I do call him "special" on occasion. :winkgrin:

KR: You are the best... I think it's old age for sure. And all the things that go with that (possible vision loss, senility, etc.)

[Mtn trails]

Well, at least you can blame it on his age.

My jr horse had the memory of a goldfish. If she had a fishbowl and a little plastic castle, she would have gone in circles, going, "Ooooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, hey, look, a castle....oooh, where'd that castle come from?":lol:



ding ding ding! We have a winner! Holy crap, that is about the funniest thing I've read on this bulletin board yet!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Seven-up]

You know what the weirdest thing was? She never spooked at anything. A calmer 3 year old I have never met. I think she was so calm because the brain was running on half capacity. There wasn't enough brain power to be scared of things; it was all she could remember to think, "one foot in front of the other..." She just couldn't remember anything from one day to the next. We could school 3rd level movements one day, and the next day, it was, "What's a leg yield? What do you mean, turn left?"

And just because y'all are enjoying these stories so much, here's another one.:winkgrin:

She never grew a tail. It was about hock length when I bought her, and in 3 years it only got to about chestnut area. So back when my trainer hadn't built a barn yet, and they were all on 24 hour turnout, she would stand next to the other horses and use their tails to keep the flies off. Smart, right? Well, remember who we're talking about. She would stand with her head under another horse's tail so they'd get the flies off her head. Well, the other horse would of course stomp their back feet occasionally, and clunk my horse in the head. Did she move? Nope. We'd stand there and watch her, head hanging down, ears flopping, eyelids at half-mast, and every few minutes, "BONK!" and her head would kind of bounce from the impact, "BONK!" head would wobble again. Sometimes she'd put her head between their back legs, so her head would bounce off one leg and then ricochet into the other. It looked like when you take a balloon and punch it with the string wrapped around your hand; you know how it bounces off your fist and then gets yanked back and hits your fist again a few times? She never moved her head out of the way. Ever. Thank god we finally got stalls. 500 concussions after the fact.:rolleyes: Maybe that's what was wrong with her. Brain damage?:lol:

[SLW]

Seven UP STOP.IT.NOW!! Your killing me with your descriptive stories!! :)

[Alagirl]

I think she was so calm because the brain was running on half capacity. There wasn't enough brain power to be scared of things; it was all she could remember to think, "one foot in front of the other..."

"breathe in...breathe out..."

[Seven-up]

"breathe in...breathe out..."


Well, she used to pass out and fall down on the cross ties so I'm not so sure she was concentrating on this thought. (Although technically I think that's narcolepsy, but I wouldn't put it past her to forget to breathe.) :rolleyes: :lol: Oh, and falling down while standing still was totally different from her habit of falling down for fun. That was at liberty and under saddle, and at high speed. My trainer called me one day and said, "Guess what your horse did today..." So many of her phone calls started that way.

Seems trainer was watching her out in the pasture, and saw her gallop, then turn real fast and fall, with her feet sliding right out from under her. Trainer started running out to check on her, and didn't get far before my horse got up, and repeated the act. Run, slip, crash. Again and again and again. She said it went on for at least 30 minutes before she went in the house. Probably to keep from peeing in her pants laughing.

Whenever it rained, I had to hold her up around the corners of the ring. Her head would come up, her ears would flick, and she'd pick up pace. "Oh, boy, oh boy, here comes a corner, look at all that mud!!! Get ready, WHEEEEE!!!" Like a baseball player sliding in to home plate, or a hippie in the mudpit at Woodstock. I got so used to her going down that I could step right off her and stay on my feet.


Ok, I swear, that's the last time I'll do that-- no more hijacking.:)

[horse-loverz]

Seven up I am dying you should just start you're own thread " retarded things my horse has done" LOL

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Seven up I am dying you should just start you're own thread " retarded things my horse has done" LOLThis horse sounds like a candidate for HSA, horse-loverz... :lol:

[Seven-up]

This horse sounds like a candidate for HSA, horse-loverz... :lol:



Oh, I soooo need some stick art of my idiot savant horse! I could put it in my signature line.

This is her...http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e287/hunterjumper77/ReneeMisty93-ish.jpg
Notice the head up, the ears and tail flicking...it was muddy, and I was heading for a corner.:winkgrin: