Colored Sporthorses

[spotsinabox]

Hi -- I'm new to this site and my head has just been spinning trying to take it all in. We have a small APHA/PtHA breeding program and just added a young homozygous stallion. I'm rather frustrated with the way they have the western horses moving, so I was starting to look at the Sporthorses . . .

Our stallion is TOTO and chestnut, 16 hands with marketable APHA bloodlines with TB on his dam side. Is there a serious market for the colored sporthorses? Can a horse that isn't shown in those arenas attract respectable mares? Can the foals be registered in other registries besides APHA (tb mares) or PtHA (anything but draft)?

As I said, I am new to this and just trying to get a feel for what it would take to get started . . .:)

[JB]

First be warned that a moderator might see this as advertising and delete ;) But, since you don't list a website and didn't name names, hopefully it can stay :)

Second - welcome! You will find LOTS of interest in color here :) Just search the first 2 pages here - you'll see what I mean LOL

Third - in that search, if you do a more in-depth one, you will find several people, including me, would LOVE to find a nice Hunter-type ToTo stallion who also produces Hunter-type foals (USEF Hunters, not AQHA).

Yes, the market is there. Small but growing IMO :yes:

[Oakstable]

What is TOTO?

[JB]

ToTo is homozygous for Tobiano

[spotsinabox]

Thanks!! Yes, I was trying to be careful to not advertise, but wanted to give you an idea of what we were working with . . .

I want to do it right. To breed good horses and not just colored horses. That was one reason I am thrilled with this site . . .

My knowledge of sporthorses is nil . . . you see alot of people advertise horses with color, but I didn't know how the 'pros' really felt about them.

So I was wondering what they look for . . . some people had told me that no one likes the chestnut tovero/tobianos?

[camohn]

Hi -- I'm new to this site and my head has just been spinning trying to take it all in. We have a small APHA/PtHA breeding program and just added a young homozygous stallion. I'm rather frustrated with the way they have the western horses moving, so I was starting to look at the Sporthorses . . .

Our stallion is TOTO and chestnut, 16 hands with marketable APHA bloodlines with TB on his dam side. Is there a serious market for the colored sporthorses? Can a horse that isn't shown in those arenas attract respectable mares? Can the foals be registered in other registries besides APHA (tb mares) or PtHA (anything but draft)?

As I said, I am new to this and just trying to get a feel for what it would take to get started . . .:)

What you would need being unshown as a sporthorse is to have a good web presence, advertise, have good confo photos and a good video of him moving. He will need to be able to freejump and have that on the video. It will then be off to a slow start.......but it can be done. I had a pinto full TB stallion.By the age of 5 when he had foals on the ground for folks to see, he had been shown in hand by that point as was going under saddle for folks to see I started getting good interest in him....and then he passed away in a tragic farm accident at only 5 just as he was starting to do really well u/s. Just be prepared to invest several years into the project.........

[Zlotych]

Colored forum necessary???

Maybe COTH can create a forum for color genetics and questions. While related to sporthorses and their breeding, I would bet most breeding for sporthorses have color pretty low on the list of consideration.

Maybe it would cut down on the fighting about who has the first, the best the ony, etc. too. :dead:

[JB]

I want to do it right. To breed good horses and not just colored horses.
That's the goal of a good breeder who is looking to fill a smaller niche - no one should fault you for that as long as the color is secondary, even if it's REALLY important :)


My knowledge of sporthorses is nil . . . you see alot of people advertise horses with color, but I didn't know how the 'pros' really felt about them.

Well, this will be hard then, because most people looking to breed sporthorses want to see that the stallion himself, or at least his offspring, have done well in the ring of their choice (ie for me, Hunters). This means the stallion and/or his kids need to be promoted and shown there, at some decent level. If your knowledge of the sporthorse disciplines isn't where you feel it should be, then you may want to partner with someone who DOES have that knowledge and help you campaign your stallion. Otherwise you're further limiting your audience to those who are willing to breed to an unknown, unproven stallion based on his looks and movement and hope they get what they think they will.

So I was wondering what they look for . . . some people had told me that no one likes the chestnut tovero/tobianos?
Of course people like the eeToTo horse :) Not everyone does. Some people much prefer a black-based horse, so tend to not look at chestnuts. Others put the Tobi pattern ahead of their color preference, so are more open to the eeToTo horse because of the guaranteed spots. I would prefer a black-based horse, but I am open to looking at the right chestnut homzogyous Tobiano :) Other folks want a guaranteed redhead, so love the chestnut boys.

[spotsinabox]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. Been there myself and it sucks.

Thank you so much everyone for the input!!

I wondered about the warmblood registries . . . but I'm going to show my ignorance, what is PHR??

Yes, we do have a good website -- I still need to get pictures and video of the new boy. And yes, I wondered about seeing if he would jump . . . his previous owner was trying to slow him down for western pleasure -- but he does move so nice.

This is his first year to stand and we didn't get him home until January . . .so we only did a little 'word of mouth' advertisting. We have been breeding him to a nice selection of mares --proven producers, one or two might be consider hunter type mares. So hopefully, we will have some nice babies to show next year.

This stallion is only 5, so we hope he will have a long, bright future -- and one reason I'm wanting to work into the Sporthorse area slowly . . . until I can get a feel for the bloodlines, etc.

As far as advertising, is there media that sporthorse people prefer?? Most of our current business is from the internet . . . but I do adverstise every now and then in different magazines.

Also -- are there incentive programs that people look for?? For example, the APHA Breeders Trust where the owner gets $ for show points accumulated each year?

We're trying to decide if we should send him somewhere to stand, or try and use a local facility. This year we only did hand breeding, but next year we plan on doing shipped semen. I'm just nervous about whether he would attract enough mares to pay for the expenses . . . I've seen too many stallions with glossy magazine ads breeding less than 10 mares a year.

[pinecone]

Check out this thread http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=208288

An APHA registered stallion doesn't have many options with respected warmblood/sporthorse registries, though.

I agree. Paint blood in general is frowned upon by most respected warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as well as being limited (or not allowed at all) by the respected registries.

I've seen too many stallions with glossy magazine ads breeding less than 10 mares a year.

Actually I believe the average is 6. Quality should be more important than quantity anyhow.

Try this: picture your stallion as a solid color. What would he have to add to a warmblood/sporthorse breeding program then, if he were solid? It has to be something more than color, and something equal or better than what's already out there.

To see a successful colored sporthorse program you could visit this website www.silverwoodfarm.com

[paintjumper]

You are going to need an experienced sporthorse breeder/competitor to show you the way. Since you already own him, begin with the stallion. Have this person you have picked to help evaluate him for conformation and movement and stick with where he is talented. What I mean by that is if he is a hunter mover with the flat knee then show him there in the hunter classes and in the hunter fences classes, on the other hand, if he is more of a big dressage or jumper mover and can handle the bigger fences then go that direction with him. In buying your mares, I would stay with TB to begin with that way you can register them with APHA, PtHA, and PHR. This will give you a slightly bigger purchase base with a baby that has papers. Also get help buying the TB mares, from a SPORTHORSE BREEDER. If your stallion is a complete hunter, only buy those type mares, preferably ones that have shown successfully. If he is a jumper/dressage type horse, then only buy those mares, don't mix and match.......you can not re-invent the wheel......you will end up with babies that are not good in either area. Be prepared to keep the babies until they are of age to show, a lot of folks will not want to take a chance on an unproven stallion.
Lastly, show the stallion, he will need an extensive show record. Our APHA stallion is a winner in dressage, hunters, jumpers, and eventing and we did quite well but it was a hard row to hoe and we would never have been successful without our wonderful trainer, Jill Williams. Pick your trainer carefully, they can undo everything you have hoped for if they don't put the best foot forward everytime. Good luck and send pictures, colored babies are super fun to raise and show.

[pinecone]

we would never have been successful with our wonderful trainer,

withOUT? ;)

[paintjumper]

I fixed it.

[JB]

I agree. Paint blood in general is frowned upon by most respected warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as well as being limited (or not allowed at all) by the respected registries.

Agree.

But, Hunter buyers mostly don't care about registries. Obviously, some do. But many don't. So, that's less of an issue for them. By the same token, many of those folks want to buy an already-started u/s and o/f horse because they want to see what they'll get. Because they don't know pedigree they don't know what *should* be expected of the horse, and they rely on what they DO see.

Dressage folks tend to be much more registry/paper-oriented, IME.

Jumper folks tend, again IME, to be sort of between the 2. Those looking for the upper ranks tend to be more paper/registry-oriented if they are buying young stock because they want to know that his pedigree supports what he should be able to do. But lower level folks don't seem to care nearly as much because most horses can do lower level Jumpers to some decent degree.

[spotsinabox]

Again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's advice and patience :winkgrin:

I know we will be a 'work in progress', but I am excited about the potential and possibilities. And, I know the concern for quality over quantity. . . that is a big issue of my own . . . as well as quality before color. One reason we will be taking baby steps . . .

They say this stallion's dam also produced a Canadian Sporthorse Champion -- but that's all I know . . . I don't really know any more details. So I am hoping if crossed on the right kind of mares, he will be an asset.

I am looking forward to expanding our education:) Next question . . . we're in the flatlands of Kansas . . . does anyone know of any events or clubs in our area where I can go to watch and study what's going on??

[pintopiaffe]

Welcome.

You will find a ton of heated opinions on this forum about American breeds period, not just APHA & AQHA.

I love this forum for what I learn, and the amazing generosity of most folks with their knowledge and experience. But always remember, it is a small corner of the SPORTHORSE world, and not necessarily representative. It's more like the cream of the cream of the crop; The demographics are quite a bit higher than say, MY general target buyer. The predjudice toward WB only is comical at times. And the predjudice against colour as well. ;)

Case in point the comment about WB breeders. You asked about Sporthorses. Many here feel that ONLY WB's should be sporthorses. Some of us feel that any horse with the right conformation & movement, showing in the "sport" divisions can be called a sporthorse.

I started out with APHA, then crossed APHA. A couple of my foals have about 1/4 -1/8 APHA in them still. I love the mind and the work ethic, it can also put a lovely strong haunch with ability to sit in there.

I deliberately put my 1/2 Arab (polish/swedish) mare to a very baroque cutting/reining APHA stallion 4 years ago. The resultant colt is wonderful. My vet who breeds Hannoverians thought he was 'pure' WB. He won the bronze at his inspection, a beautiful filly by the WB du jour won gold, my other colt--half brother--won silver. I was heartbroken the plumbing came out external--he is everything I wanted and was aiming for, except a colt. :sadsmile:

As someone with 'off' breed Pinto Sporthorses, I can say the market is there, small, not entirely reliable, but I've sold everything I have for sale. ;) As far as APHA stallions, there are always folks IN the breed looking to improve in the direction you are. You really need to find out which discipline your guy is suited for to market him on the 'open' market. There ARE folks out there who want an APHA stallion... but you really have to get him out in his discipline--get some scores or show results, some good pictures 'dressed up' and showing what he's good at (be that hunters, dressage, eventing, etc. ) There IS buisiness out there, but this isn't the best place to guage that. ;)

[Kyzteke]

Welcome and good luck!

Like others, I suggest you get your boy out there and show him either in-hand or u/s in the hunter (open) shows. If he does well, there is a segment of the population that will breed to him, as QH & the right Paints DO show up in the hunter ring and even dressage. They just have to move in the right manner. Many of them, especially with alot of TB, DO move well enough, especially for hunters.

As far as "selling" him to established WB breeders -- I wouldn't get my hopes up about that. As others have pointed out, there is no WB registry of European origin that will approve a non-WB (excluding Arabs & TBs) as a licensed stallion. Those are just the rules.

Now there are beginning to be afew more ToTo WB stallions who have gone through the testing and everything and so the breeders are going to them for color.

But there are people who have QHs, Paints, Arabs and draft x mares who plan for horses for themselves and that is a market. But you first need to show that your boy can do well in the sporthorse areas.

I agree that the western "hunt seat" just looks like WP with an English saddle, so I applaud you for rejecting that picture. If your stallion has the right movement & right brain, you might do well.

[spotsinabox]

Yep, I figure a person never gets anywhere sitting on the sidelines . . . so we might as well jump in the pond. If nothing else, just to improve our own program with the right kind of TB mares that we can register in the APHA/PtHA.

So many homozygous horses are unfortunately bred to anything and everything, it has really given them a bad repuation. But, a fancy tobiano or tovero, that is bred for a purpose, whether it be Western or English, can really turn a judges head. That's our goal . . . to breed the fancy ones.

This site will be great for learning the difference between the fancy and the mediocre. Thanks again for sharing!!

[belambi]

Tobianos are really in a strange situation.. They dont really fit any 'box'. Basically, as we all know, they dont occur naturally in the TB or AQHA and were introduced into the paint when the association realised that they needed more colour (than cropout,overo,sabino and splash were able to gaurantee)..otherwise 50% of the paints atleast would be solid (statistically).
Whilst there are a few toby paint top halter horses, the majority are more performance bred.
This along with the fact that many toby breeders stick with just tobys, has resulted in SOME of them returning more to the original type. It is very possible to have an APHA registered toby, who has ZERO AQHA in him.
I must admit that I would prefer to have a TOTO stallion who is chestnut based than EE simply because it does allow for some more variety in the possible colour equations.

[spotsinabox]

Ironically neither one of our stallion's parents were homozygous. We just got lucky with that spin of the T's . . . He actually has more AQHA and TB blood than Paint.

[camohn]

As far as advertising, is there media that sporthorse people prefer?? Most of our current business is from the internet . . . but I do adverstise every now and then in different magazines.

Also -- are there incentive programs that people look for?? For example, the APHA Breeders Trust where the owner gets $ for show points accumulated each year?

We're trying to decide if we should send him somewhere to stand, or try and use a local facility. This year we only did hand breeding, but next year we plan on doing shipped semen. I'm just nervous about whether he would attract enough mares to pay for the expenses . . . I've seen too many stallions with glossy magazine ads breeding less than 10 mares a year.

Internet and word of mouth work best
I had zero luck with APHA ads since we did not have a Western/Halter sort
If you do want to breed APHA hunters.........then breeders trust is a MUST. APHA hunter folks pretty much won't breed to him unless he is BT nominated.
Do what ever it takes to send out the best quality shipment. Getting a rep for poor quality semen will sink you fast....you don't want that to be due to cheaping out on the lesser shipper.
FYI: The average stallion breeds 6 mares a year per stats.....so MOST stallions will be breeding less than 10 a year. And we did in fact average that......though interest was just starting to exceed that when out poor boy died. I went into this thinking that I was going to make money standing a stallion. NOT!! Any income will be more than taken up by outgo of advertising etc. BUT I am not at all sorry I did it, even if all we did was break even. He was the coolest horse ever. I would have happily ridden him if he never got a mare. After his death we now have his last (2 YO) son intact and silly me I am doing this again. This time with no illusions of making money! I will once again be happy if I break even and the colt is as good as his sire...as he has some pretty big shoes to fill.

[spotsinabox]

Yep, I agree the Breeders Trust is a must. I waited too long on our senior stallion, but didn't waste anytime in enrolling the new boy.

I never had much luck with the APHA ads . . . for what they cost, I think a person can get more mileage out of an internet ad. This colt has enough western pleasure breeding to be marketable in the NSBA and some of those venues . . . so I really don't know what to expect if we can get our ads out early this year.

As I mentioned, I was tickled with the inquiries we had . . . a few changed their mind later due to the economy (jobs, etc.) and one decided to just wait so she could get an earlier foal to show. We still have a couple old mares to breed, but we should have 7 or 8 foals next year.

I was looking at the Equine Reproduction site in Oklahoma . . . but then I would have to ship the semen home to my own mares, or ship them down there . . . or there is a vet about 1 hour from home that does reproduction work. So, I am still trying to push the pencil, see which one will be the most feasible for my budget.

I've already had my share of taking shots in the dark with the local vets. So we sure want to do it right. And yep . . .the first rule of horses . . . it's not for the money!

Our greatest treasure has been the feedback we get from the owners . . .it does a person's heart good to know your horse made a difference.

[SilverBalls]

Colored forum necessary???

Maybe COTH can create a forum for color genetics and questions. While related to sporthorses and their breeding, I would bet most breeding for sporthorses have color pretty low on the list of consideration.

Maybe it would cut down on the fighting about who has the first, the best the ony, etc. too. :dead:

Well if you were still running this BB I'm sure this may have been attempted... "But you're not Blance, you're not"! :lol::lol::lol:

[florida foxhunter]

Best of luck...........IMO there is aways a market for a big APHA/TB horse. However you will have many frustrations trying to deal with ANY warmblood registries. NONE that I know of will allow a stallion of any (1/16th I think may be acceptable) QH or APHA blood to be in Book 1.
As for people liking pintos...not everyone does....but those who do, really DO love them.

Over the years it has amazed me at the BNT's and R Judges who have come to me privately to confide they've always wanted a pinto......or how much they love them!
However, when you go in the A Show Hunter World you have to be just a little better than the solids to get your accolades........but it can be done!!

However, you do have to "play the game", "be seen", advertise, AND have a very special stallion.........and even with that it's still hard to make that illusive profit!!

WE've always bred for quality first, and color second..........and have had many of our solid foals do very well in hunter breeding/showing. Then, the color is "truly the icing on the cake" , as it should be! <smile>

[Blonde Filly]

Well if you were still running this BB I'm sure this may have been attempted... "But you're not Blance, you're not"! :lol::lol::lol:

It seems I'm not the only one who thought the same thing. Zlotych seems to crawl out of her hole to slap down the breeders and then crawls back in her hole for months at a time before making a new appearance. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[spotsinabox]

Thanks again for the input . . . and I must say, I love Claim to Fame and Counterclaim . . . they were a couple horses that turned my head and got me to thinking 'outside the box'. And I love those colored Tb's at Norsire . . . been drooling over those dark palomino fillies for quite some time!!

To be perfectly honest, I always prefered the 'headlight and chrome wheels' of the sabinos like my senior stallion. But after crawling on my belly looking for 2" of white, I'm looking forward to having that guaranteed color.

And yes, I agree whole heartedly that quality comes first and the color is just the icing on the cake!! And even if we don't make an impact in the sporthorse world, if we can just kick our own program up a notch . . . making the horses more versatile for our APHA/PtHA world will be fine with me.

Form and function . . . strong dam lines . . . and good minds are what we breed for . . . ideally for youth and amatuer riders. I would just like to see the APHA/PtHA judges quit placing those crab crawlers and half lame horses.

So, I figure if I can learn from the best . . . absorb as much information as possible and set our goals high . . . it's a better path to be on.

[TrueColours]

While related to sporthorses and their breeding, I would bet most breeding for sporthorses have color pretty low on the list of consideration.


Actually - no - from what I have found its pretty high up there along with the requisite movement, conformation, temperament, type, athletic ability, etc, etc, etc ... ;)

Welcome to the board and good luck with your guy!

I would have said initially that a tobiano didnt have a snowball's chance in Hell of excelling in the traditionally staid and conservative hunter world, but then along came Claim To Fame and he proved that he had all of the important and necessary attributes in SPADES, he excelled in that conservative hunter world and the judges seemed to "forget" that he was "one of those tobiano's" as he put in such beautiful and flawless trips ... :)

So - while the hunter discipline might not be my FIRST choice to target with a tobiano, CTF has proven that quality overcame any/all colour biases that may have existed before he stepped into the ring ...

Good luck with him! :)

[3Dogs]

TC and others - a good horse that shows nice form over fences and moves well can DO well. Are there some judges who don't like the look of a horse of "color" - maybe, sure, okay. But their are plenty of hunter judges who make decisions all day long that may have bias and those biases don't have ANYTHING to do with color :winkgrin:

We keep getting so "color" centric.

[TrueColours]

TC and others - a good horse that shows nice form over fences and moves well can DO well.

Hey!!! :)

I'm AGREEING with you! :lol:

Thats why my focus IS breeding nice horses that happen to be coloured! ;)

[JB]

Actually - no - from what I have found its pretty high up there along with the requisite movement, conformation, temperament, type, athletic ability, etc, etc, etc ... ;)


Actually, the original comment is pretty accurate in the general sporthorse breeders' world. There are some exception, like some love to breed for gray, some stay far away from gray, some stay away from chestnut, etc. Most of them are "color blind" and purely look at confo, performance, etc. It's the color breeders who have it high up there, as well as the smaller % of the "normal" breeders who want/don't want gray, etc.

[TrueColours]

Actually, the original comment is pretty accurate in the general sporthorse breeders' world. There are some exception, like some love to breed for gray, some stay far away from gray, some stay away from chestnut, etc. Most of them are "color blind" and purely look at confo, performance, etc. It's the color breeders who have it high up there, as well as the smaller % of the "normal" breeders who want/don't want gray, etc.


JB - I guess we need to agree to disagree on this one ... ;)

And steer away from colour being "pinto" or "dilute" for a minute ...

I would say that probably 80% or better of people that have contacted me over the years looking for a prospect (and this was before I got into breeding as well, and dealt with ex race horses off the track) had a very specific idea of what they wanted in their "dream" horse and I was asked - very specifically - to please call them first if I got THAT particular horse in

of course they wanted the right type and to have it move well, but then it got specific. They wanted 4 even stockings and a nice blaze - nothing too wide. Grey was the first colour choice, then black, then bay - chestnut was down at the bottom

Or - they wanted a plain bay but that very rich, deep dark bay that looked almost black. A small star was acceptable, but no more white than that

So ... in buyers specifically asking for a grey first, or a plain bay first as that represents THEIR ideal of what they are looking for in a youngster - how is THAT not seen as a colour bias being important in their list of things that are very important to them, but asking for dilute or pinto colouring is seen as flaky??? or not important??? or irrelevant?

I wouldnt take a grey, but obviously there are tens of thousands of buyers out there that love grey horses! :)

We all have things that are important to us that we want in our wish list for the perfect horse. A smoky black with 4 high whites and a white face and smidges of colour throughout the body is mine ... :)

[paintjumper]

There is something out there for anybody that is looking for it. Our Stallion Windell is a black tobiano. We have had folks come to look that would not have a red tobi, then the next one was looking for (and found) a dun tobi! I have had some looking specifically for one color on the phone and pick out a completely different color when they got here. I even had one lady from Canada, moving to Fla. that had seen Windell in Fla at some shows and wanted his brain ......BUT NOT HIS COLOR, she paid a handsome sum for a solid brown filly, she didn't have a white hair on her!!!! She told me not to be offended when she described her as a "half TB" not a "half paint"! Oh well, like the quote says, if you build it (in this case a good horse) they will come.

[JB]

TCF, the original comment referenced the sporthorse breeders. You are comment on the buyers. Different :)

I totally agree with you on the buyers - people want black, or a nice plain bay with little to no white, or they reeeally want black, or reallyreally do not want chestnut, or do want gray, as well as those who couldn't care less what color the horse is.

Most breeders, outside the color-specific ones (whether that breeders is for black horses or pintos or dilutes), don't care about pattern or color.

[spotsinabox]

I've been browsing the threads and I was excited to see info on Kings Witchdoctor . . . it looked like most people liked him. We have a young tobiano 2 year old filly that we will eventually be breeding to our new boy . . . so maybe we are at least headed in the right direction.

I also noticed See Me Com En . . . our boy's dam came from that program. Matter of fact the Canadian Sporthorse she was suppose to have produced was sired by him.

And, the other APHA producers she had were by Will Spot Ya. He is actually standing in Kansas at the moment.

So, as the saying goes . . . maybe a blind sow can find an acorn once in a while . . . :lol:

[SilverSpringFarm]

Personally, I would LOVE to find a few more really nice "sport type" Paint stallions. There are plenty of Paints that do quite well in sport yet so few good Paint stallions to choose from. I would love to learn more about your boy. (If you feel like PM-ing me some more info go right ahead!)

[camohn]

I've been browsing the threads and I was excited to see info on Kings Witchdoctor . . . it looked like most people liked him. We have a young tobiano 2 year old filly that we will eventually be breeding to our new boy . . . so maybe we are at least headed in the right direction.

I also noticed See Me Com En . . . our boy's dam came from that program. Matter of fact the Canadian Sporthorse she was suppose to have produced was sired by him.

And, the other APHA producers she had were by Will Spot Ya. He is actually standing in Kansas at the moment.

So, as the saying goes . . . maybe a blind sow can find an acorn once in a while . . . :lol:

I tried to buy a lovely KW filly o/o a TB mare but she was already sold
I did like the pedigree on See Me Come En but have not owned any
I did breed a lovely colt o/o my TB mare by Will Spot Ya. He sold to an A circuit hunter trainer (A BNT in TX) as a weaner but he sadly injured his neck in a stall accident as a 3 YO and had to be put down.

[spotsinabox]

I am really tickled with my Kings Witchdoctor filly. She is out of a black overo Clegg Bar mare. She was a late June filly, but is already the size of my other 2 year olds, so I am thinking she will be big girl with plenty of movement. She's got a sweet disposition, pretty head . . . should cross well with the new boy eventually.

I had remembered seeing the APHA ads on Kings Witchdoctor . . . but had kind of left sight of him. I came across this filly and got her thinking she would ad some color and size to my senior stallion. Then when we purchased the new stallion, I was even more pleased to think of the english horse we should get out of them.

The Will Spot Ya colts are really popular. It's a shame the 3 year old had to be put down. I know there are some people in Colorado that have been using Will Spot Ya on their Tb/Aqha Hunter Under Saddle mares and doing quite well at the APHA shows.

As we said, it's hard to find homozygous stallions that can produce the more modern, competitive horses. I hope our new boy will give people a new option. I looked long and hard to find him.

Now. . .the wait is on to see those babies!!

[crosscreeksh]

My 2 cents....Last summer we sold our black/white, 16.2 hand, homozygous stallion in an attempt to cut back on our breeding load. He was a big boned, gorgeous headed, "Sport" type mover. We mostly breed to just our own mares, but got a few outside mares to him. NONE of them were breeding for APHA registration and I found that when advertising, people shied away from the APHA factor!! The sport people think APHA means a 5'x5' bodied horse that can't get his nose out of the dirt or move out of his own way and the APHA people buy primarily on pedigree - not conformation!!! Our stallion was also the product of two parents who were paint and TB and paint and QH....I think those "rare' homozygous horses usually display higher quality than the HZ to HZ horses. The first year we were standing paint stallions I spent a literal fortune on Paint Horse Journal advertising...never got a single booking!! I suggest you target the people looking to breed sport horses over APHA horses. They tend to be worlds apart!! JMO!

[spotsinabox]

Thanks --- yep I can see there is a difference in the two worlds. And I agree with the QH/TB influence producing a much more refined horse than a lot of the old time homozygous horses.

That's one thing I like about this new boy -- he does have the bloodlines to appeal to the APHA crowd, plus that athletic ability needed to produce good babies.

I'm a little worried that the APHA may be going down the same path as the AQHA -- one reason I have started to 'look outside' . . . biggest challenge for me is the fact that I know nothing about this world . . . so I will have to ease into it and study up. I hope everyone will be patient with me as I ask all the dumb questions :winkgrin:

But I do love it . . . checking out some of the links with the show jumping and dressage -- we use to watch show jumping on tv when we lived in England. And now, that I am older, I have come to understand the complexity of dressage.

Anyway, thanks for all the input . . . I'm just a sponge trying to soak it all up!! :)