Performance results from dilute TB or warmblood stallions

[ChelseaR]

Are there any dilute TBs or WBs with real performance results? Or who have offspring with results? Something above lower levels?
I haven't seen any yet and am curious as I like the colours.

[TrueColours]

Well - Guaranteed Gold evented up to the Training Level which was sufficient for achieve his Bronze Premium status with the CSHA. His owners at the time opted to then retire him rather than move up from that level, so no way of knowing what level he "might" have been able to go to from there.

I know that Gwen has had Alchemist inspected and provisionally approved over in Germany and he now has to fulfill the performance portion, so he is on his way to doing so

Mirabeau has shown up to ??? Level Jumpers and pulled in some good ribbons so he has been in the show ring as well

Glitter Please of course was a dressage horse and competed up to Intermediare levels and was schooling PSG and I believe was long listed to the USEF Dressage team

The whole Milkie's Desire, Gold Apollo, Canadian Kid crew had some kids that did very very well in the Hunter ring

Im sure that others can fill in the blanks as well for the rest of the single and double dilute WB stallions which I am not as familiar with and some of the TB ones that perhaps I am missing as well ... :)

[PineTreeFarm]

The whole Milkie's Desire, Gold Apollo, Canadian Kid crew had some kids that did very very well in the Hunter ring

... :)

Which Hunter ring?
If you mean HB then yes, they did well and horses from those families continue to do well in HB.

But in performance classes, not so much. There were some that did well in performance classes in the 80's but not too much recently.
I'm not saying they aren't capable, I am saying that they tend to do better as HB horses then they do as performance horses ( 3'6" and up ). Of course, there can be a lot of reasons for that.

But if you have names of some recent ones please share.

[TrueColours]

There were some that did well in performance classes in the 80's but not too much recently.


Well - yes - but thats because those sires are dead or may as well have been dead with how they were treated / managed / neglected / abandoned in their later years (and I am NOT referring to CK here at all!)

[JB]

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=208288

[PineTreeFarm]

Well - yes - but thats because those sires are dead or may as well have been dead with how they were treated / managed / neglected / abandoned in their later years (and I am NOT referring to CK here at all!)

Ok, so do you mean to say that Milkie's Desire and Gold Apollo were abused or badly managed?

But you have made my point very well.
Are there any CURRENT dilute sires with offspring that are even competing in performance classes ( 3'6" or above )

Originally Posted by TrueColours http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4155734#post4155734)

The whole Milkie's Desire, Gold Apollo, Canadian Kid crew had some kids that did very very well in the Hunter ring"

[Mythology]

Both Bernstein and Chablis (buckskins) are/were doing Grand Prix dressage, I think...

[aurum]

Chablis is definitely doing Grand Prix and ready to go for Int I

Blue Eyed Dream is performing in driving and dressage

Mirabeau is competing in jumping

all of my Warmblood approved stallions have done the stallion performance test which I count very much as a performance of higher quality.

Some of mine are now starting to go for their performance testing, first is The Alchemist in August. Next is Weissgold, then Ellusive Look.

[aurum]

@ PineTreeFarm

Yes Milkie's Desire was very much neglected and abused. I still feel so sorry for that poor stallion that once was a gorgeous horse!

[au_panda]

I have a Canadian Kid gelding who was the West Coast IHF 3 and 4 year old performance champion. He also did well in HB and has been shown lightly in the Pre-Greens and placed very well.

He has shown in the A/A Hunters in No. Cal and was year end champion in '08 for the Sacramento Area HJ association. He has placed well in major shows both over fences and under saddle in the A/As. He is schooling 3'6" and will do the 1st years next year, finances allowing. He has a cute jump and a very big stride and a chicken owner who is still working her way back to the A/O's after not having an A/O hunter for 15 years.

I think there are 2 issues with the dilutes relative to this BB. IMO, 6 is the earliest age for a hunter to step into the 1st years after working their way through the lower divisions so a lot of the current crop of palominos being discussed are not old enough yet to do the rated divisions. Also, I think some posters underestimate just how much money it takes now days to get a horse to the rated hunter divisions at 3'6" and up and not all breeders are putting the money into getting their horses that far.

As far as I'm concerned, my dilute already has a successful show career (he's willingly packed me around for 3 show seasons).

[ChelseaR]

Chablis is definitely doing Grand Prix and ready to go for Int I

.

That't the sort of thing I am looking for. I can find history of such horses but not much that is currently standing at stud.

When I say real performance results from my perspective I mean:

At least fourth level dressage with scores of 65+ or
At least 3'6" hunters with show championships (or reserve) or
At least Intermediate eventing record with at least one finish on the dressage score
At least level 6/7 jumper with high placings in good company (mini-prix/classics/etc)

I know that this takes a lot of time/money and effort on the part of the breeder but there are a large number of warmblood stallions that have a resume better than the above. When it's a choice between that or a pretty color the choice is simple - I want a performance horse. Results on the line mean nothing to me (although I do understand why many people appreciate them)

Now I don't need a Grand Prix horse or a Regular Working Hunter so I expect other people have higher expectations from a sporthorse stallion.

I do think however that the stallion should either have a performance record that is a step higher that what I would like to do or have offspring that have that sort of record. Ideally the mare would too - the problem with the mare is that yes it does take a fair bit of time to get that sort of result and the mares age impacts fertility more than the stallions.

That's not to say there isn't a niche for all the rest of the dilute stallions or that they aren't nice individuals but although I would love the colour - I have different breeding priorites.

So I was just wondering what might be out there that met my requirements and still would give me a cool colour. I have the possibilty of breeding a lovely (chestnut :) ) dutch mare who has competed solidly in the low A/O jumpers (level 5/6) and would love to have a cool coloured foal.

A pinto would be nice too and I know there are some really nice pinto sporthorse stallions with good records - but I do really like the single dilute colours.

Some of the stallions listed in the other thread look potentially promising but are still fairly young and in training and don't have any offspring old enough to have performance records - so I guess those are the ones to watch for the next few years.

[pintopiaffe]

As said above, many are not old enough.

Check out Wolf Run's Limet Hurry.

He was doing very well at 2nd year before last or last--had to for his stallion licensing. He's not old enough yet to be doing FEI, but I expect he will.

As far as pintos, Liz Hall's senior stallions certianly walked the talk. Sempatico was showing until the rider had other commitments (school I think--might be wrong!)

[aurum]

I think it is very much demanded from a breeder to ask for all this performace results as it is already much money to bring along a stallion for approval, training and performance test which gives him lifetime approval. I for one do not have the monies to send my stallions away, to forget about their breeding season and not have them breed and to invest a ton of money that will never come back. So I stay with the stallion performance test as that has given them credibility enough in my eyes and after all its the foals that need to be good as the breeders want good offspring. Nobody is giving me the money to send my stallions to compete, so I find it very demanding to ask for more than what they need and as they have done and proven with their top foals.

[Cartier]

When I say real performance results from my perspective I mean:

At least fourth level dressage with scores of 65+ or
At least 3'6" hunters with show championships (or reserve) or
At least Intermediate eventing record with at least one finish on the dressage score
At least level 6/7 jumper with high placings in good company (mini-prix/classics/etc)

I know that this takes a lot of time/money and effort on the part of the breeder but there are a large number of warmblood stallions that have a resume better than the above. When it's a choice between that or a pretty color the choice is simple - I want a performance horse.
I am curious, who are all these solid WB stallions who have competed to this level? Many stallions never do more than pass their stallion testing as a three year old. That is the laurel they rest on for life. They do not ever compete to the levels you mention above. If you look at number of foals sired in a given year (or cumulatively over a lifetime), Hilltop Farm’s stallions Riverman and Contucci are/ were very popular stallions, yet they did not compete at the level you set forth above. And there widely used stallions that actually have 4th level scores, there are some that even got to GP a decade or so ago, yet if you actually saw them (or video of them) in competition, you’d probably laugh out loud. The group of stallions who actually achieve credible performance careers is much smaller than you think. I suspect that you are judging dilute stallions to a standard very few WB or WB approved stallions ever achieve.

[DownYonder]

I just took a quick look at the Oldenburg (GOV) stallion directory. I only had time to get through the "F" stallions, but there are PLENTY of solid colored WB stallions that have had or are having fairly successful performance careers (i.e., competed to the levels ChelseaR mentioned, or had very respectable stallion tests and are either currently moving up the levels in their performance careers or are retired after coming very close to the levels ChelseaR mentioned).

Alesi (Shine)
All the Gold
Apiro
Art Deco
Autocrat
Benvolio (now deceased)
Bergamon
Bugatti
Cabalito
Cacique
Calimero
Caruso
Cathalido
Coco Cavalli
Coconut Grove
Connecticut
Consul
Contango (deceased)
Contester
Coromino
Dacaprio
Davidor
DiVinci
Donates
Donovan
Donner Bube
Donnerlück
Donnerschlag
Don Principe
Edelweiss be Bonce
Facet
For Play
Freestyle
Futurist

While there are certainly some solid colored stallions that never do much of anything past their performance tests, the fact remains that there are MANY that DO go on to be quite successful competitors.

We have this discussion on this forum time and time again about which stallions are best suited for breeding good riding horses that can be successful competitors - the stallion that only completes a stallion performance test or maybe does well at the Bundeschampionat and is then retired to breeding, or the stallion that gets out there and repeatedly - year after year - proves his own talent, rideability, temperament, trainability, etc. Every mare owner has to make their own judgment call on that one.

As for dilute-colored stallions - yes, there are a few out there with performance credentials, but not very many that have gotten past lower levels. I agree with the person that said that many times a stallion owner underestimates how much time and money is involved in campaigning a stallion - esp. if the SO isn't a talented rider/trainer that can bring the stallion along themselves. One only has to look at the number of threads on this forum over the years that have centered on the topic of COLOR to see that there are a fair number of people whose main concern when breeding is getting a foal that is either a flashy pinto or a dilute. Since many of these people are going to breed to a color-producing stallion whether or not he has a upper level performance career, SOs that stand these types of stallions usually realize fairly early in the game that they can make far more money keeping their stallion home breeding, than sending him off on a performance campaign.

With more and more people breeding for pintos and dilutes, though, I suspect it is just a matter of time before we start seeing a few more of these horses break through to upper levels.

[JB]

While there are certainly some solid colored stallions that never do much of anything past their performance tests, the fact remains that there are MANY that DO go on to be quite successful competitors.
I agree, it seems there are more stallions competing at higher levels than people realize. I think it's probably mostly Jumpers and Dressage, but they are out there in Hunter land as well.

The real question shouldn't be about actual numbers. The real question should be about percentages. Obviously a population (of dilute/pinto/colored stallions) that is a small subset of the bigger population (of all stallions) is *not* going to have the same numbers. But one might expect them to have the same % in a given area, or close. Given that the colored stallions are a very, very small % of the non-colored, by default you're already looking a very small % of them out there competing.

With more and more people breeding for pintos and dilutes, though, I suspect it is just a matter of time before we start seeing a few more of these horses break through to upper levels.
Yep! It was mentioned in the other thread, I think, several times, that when you start breeding for color, sometimes you have to start with the color and the quality may not be quite there. Over time, as quickly as possible, you improve the quality. I think it was slow to start, but is quickly gaining steam in that regard. That helps greatly increase the chances of getting the colored stallions up to the same % as the solids in terms of performance.

[RiverOaksFarm]

At least fourth level dressage with scores of 65+ or
At least 3'6" hunters with show championships (or reserve) or
At least Intermediate eventing record with at least one finish on the dressage score
At least level 6/7 jumper with high placings in good company (mini-prix/classics/etc)

Blue Eyed Dream GF is not quite at the level you're looking for (Fourth Level), but at 7 years old he's competing at Third Level (and has scored above 70%.) He also competes at the Intermediate level in Driving CDE's quite successfully. His foals have had good inspection results, although it will be a little while until they're old enough to start having competition results.

[Cartier]

Alesi (Shine)
All the Gold
Apiro
Art Deco
Autocrat
Benvolio (now deceased)
Bergamon
Bugatti
Cabalito
Cacique
Calimero
Caruso
Cathalido
Coco Cavalli
Coconut Grove
Connecticut
Consul
Contango (deceased)
Contester
Coromino
Dacaprio
Davidor
DiVinci
Donates
Donovan
Donner Bube
Donnerlück
Donnerschlag
Don Principe
Edelweiss be Bonce
Facet
For Play
Freestyle
Futurist



Interesting list… some of those stallions have indeed had credible performance careers, but others, not so much. Frankly, if YouTube had been around 5-10 years ago, and we could actually see some of the popular stallions used today, they would not even be in consideration for anything other than providing viable semen that reliably gets mares in foal. Struggling to finally achieve minimal qualifying scores and then immediately disappearing from competition is not really a “performance career.” Many of us have seen these stallions in person and in competition. To be PC, there is a distinction between obtaining minimum qualifying scores and actually being competitive.

But my point is really this, if you look at the number of mares a stallion gets (which reflects the public’s perception of the value of a stallion), there are stallions (who really do not have what the poster defined as a credible performance career), who have gotten many more breedings in one year than some of these stallions have gotten in a life time.

Everyone is breeding with different goals. For breeders who are breeding to sell a foal, they are going to use the hot new stallion of the year (e.g., His Highness, Florencio, Quateback, Hotline, Diarado etc, long before the stallion has a performance career (and the market doesn’t seem to care). And stallion test results (which many popular stallions rely upon), do not have parity with a credible performance career.

[TrueColours]

But my point is really this, if you look at the number of mares a stallion gets (which reflects the public’s perception of the value of a stallion), there are stallions (who really do not have what the poster defined as a credible performance career), who have gotten many more breedings in one year than some of these stallions have gotten in a life time.


Amen ... ;)

And to be perfectly honest, I am equally as proud of the AQHA, Anglo Arabian and APHA youngsters that clients own that excel in those breed registry shows as I am if they excel as an "A" level hunter at the +3'6" levels

Believe it or not, there is a whole 'nuther world out there that doesnt revolve around the hunter, jumper, eventing, dressage disciplines that we are so familiar with ... ;) ... and those Mare Owners are looking for nice dilute stallions to breed to as well ... :)

[Cartier]

Amen ... ;)

And to be perfectly honest, I am equally as proud of the AQHA, Anglo Arabian and APHA youngsters that clients own that excel in those breed registry shows as I am if they excel as an "A" level hunter at the +3'6" levels

Believe it or not, there is a whole 'nuther world out there that doesnt revolve around the hunter, jumper, eventing, dressage disciplines that we are so familiar with ... ;) ... and those Mare Owners are looking for nice dilute stallions to breed to as well ... :)
I agree. While it’s wonderful to have a horse you’ve bred in a situation with an owner who can take the horse as far in competition as the horse can go, for us what is even more wonderful still are the owners who have made a long-term commitment to the horse.

We see all sorts of posts where breeders or former owners are trying to reconnect with an animal they bred and lost contact with. That is my worst nightmare and those kinds of posts break my heart. I cherish the owners who keep in contact with us… for example Vicky and Thom have made a huge commitment to Faberge (our 2003 Feinbrand daughter). She is perfectly suited to Thom. He was not looking for FEI potential with Faberge (and they may indeed have that with their Cossino son Caleb). For Faberge, the term “sporthorse” means a well-built, athletic, sound horse with the mental aptitude and physical ability to do a bit of everything, even if the horse never comes within a hundred yards of FEI competition. With Faberge, they have an athletic, steady, reliable trusting companion, who learns easily and is fun to work with. I love visiting with Thom and Vicky and seeing the relationship they have developed with Fabs. It’s a great feeling.

[DownYonder]

Believe it or not, there is a whole 'nuther world out there that doesnt revolve around the hunter, jumper, eventing, dressage disciplines that we are so familiar with ... ;) ... and those Mare Owners are looking for nice dilute stallions to breed to as well ... :)

Ah, yes. But this is the Sporthorse Breeding Forum, which is why we are discussing dilute stallions suitable for siring sporthorses. :D

[DownYonder]

And, as I said earlier – every mare owner has to make her own judgment call on which type of stallion she prefers for her breeding program. Some mare owners will place more value on a stallion that manages to make it up through medium or upper levels of competition even if he doesn’t have the flashiest gaits or get top scores, while others place more value on the flamboyant, glamour boy stallion that has not been seen outside of stallion exhibitions since his young horse career or stallion performance test. I suspect that people breeding for the amateur market or for a keeper riding horse for themselves tend to be more attracted to the first type of stallion, while those that are hoping to sell to BNTs are attracted to the second type of stallion.

And I do agree somewhat with JB about percentages. There are a very small number of dilute WB stallions out there, for the simple reason that these have not traditionally been popular colors in Europe. Hanover and Holstein do not allow “off-colors” in their registries, and even chestnut-colored horses are looked upon with disdain in some circles in Oldenburg, so it has been a hard sell convincing European breeders, riders, and trainers to accept dilutes. OTOH, many American breeders well remember Roy Rogers and Trigger and Dale Evans and Buttermilk, so we tend to be much more accepting of palominos, etc. I guess you could say that dilute colored horses are part of our cultural heritage here in North America, which may help explain the great interest in them here compared to our friends across the Atlantic.

[TrueColours]

Hanover and Holstein do not allow “off-colors” in their registries,

Thats interesting and has anyone actually TRIED to get a dilute approved???

The lady I spoke with in the AHS absolutely totally disagrees that this is a policy or a bias within the Registry and I guess we will find out when my buckskin TB mare is presented in August

According to her, if the mare is a quality mare and has the movement and is of the type they are looking for, they will approve her the same as they would a plain bay TB mare ...

I guess we will wait and see what happens :)

[RiddleMeThis]

Ah, yes. But this is the Sporthorse Breeding Forum, which is why we are discussing dilute stallions suitable for siring sporthorses. :DAmazingly, there ARE hunters, and jumpers, and even some dressage classes at breed shows....I know its incredible isnt it?

[PineTreeFarm]

Amazingly, there ARE hunters, and jumpers, and even some dressage classes at breed shows....I know its incredible isnt it?

Wouldn't know. I do USEF recognized shows/divisions. Tell us what type of Hunter classes are held and at what height? How about jumpers? What level or height? What types of courses or technical difficulty?

But the requirements that ChelseaR posted should have made it clear that that poster was not referring to Breed Shows.

Apples and Oranges.

[RiddleMeThis]

But the requirements that ChelseaR posted should have made it clear that that poster was not referring to Breed Shows.

I wasn't responding to ChelseaR. ;)

[Delkredere]

Maxamillion http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/1GVFMaxamillion.html is currently showing locally in the 4' jumpers and eventing locally as well. There are not many shows at higher heights local to where we are, but now that my health has improved, we hope to start making the longer hauls to get to the bigger shows.

He has competed Training level eventing, schooled over prelim and advanced level cross country courses, and his highest jump under saddle being 5'3". I will let the photos on his website speak for themselves.

Sadly, He is not approvable with any European WB registries because of his ASB blood. His foals are registerable with the American WB registries. His foal are just now being put under saddle and showing MUCH promise for Eventing and Jumpers.

Like others said, there are not many out there for what you are looking for. If I think of any others than ones suggested, I will post again. Good luck :)

[Galileo1998]

Thats interesting and has anyone actually TRIED to get a dilute approved???



Yes, there was a buckskin mare presented to the AHS at the Windswept Farms inspection a year or two ago. She was inspected but wasn't approved.

[ChelseaR]

I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with the dilute stallions owned by breeders on this list - I think some of them look very nice. I am not trying to judge anyones programs either.

These are just my personal criteria not something I think every one should follow - it's just what I look for.

Because the percentage of dilute stallions is very low so far I was just wondering if there were any dilute stallions that I could consider without giving up my performance requirements as I like the colours but not at the expense of ability or temperment :).

I am just hoping for something a little different - so thank you those who provided potential candidates to check out :)


Since it came up however:

I must strongly disagree however that competition results have less to do with offspring performance than stallion test or in-hand results.

For me I don't see why would consider breed to a stallion (or offspring) that have not proven to do anything equivalent to what I am looking for in a baby (well I do specify a level up from where I would most likely get to but I figure that's a decent ball park) - I can find mares with these results.

Whatever happened to breed the best to the best and hope for the best?

I breed one mare at a time and not very often at that and plan to keep the baby for myself - I really am not a good enough judge to take a risk on a trendy but unproven sire. So I look for a proven stallion who complements the mare.

Having show results shows that the stallion has the temperment to handle the stress and usually crowded environment and also can maintain soundness at a higher level of work.

Now I would also consider a stallion that didnt have the show results but that could perform to that level at home if everthing else was a really good match - i.e cleanly get around a solid 4'3+ course - not just clear a single 4' jump free jumping.

Free jumping alone doesn't tell you much in my opinion- I have a gelding who can easily free jump 4'6" plus and look great doing - but he doesnt really have the scope to handle more that a level 3 jumper class at full height and width (plus he's a bit of a wuss - but I love him anyhow).

And yes I know that not every stallion owner can afford to or wants to have their stallion competing - however to say that there are not very many solid stallion who meet my requirements is ridiculous.

There are literally 1000s who meet them and 100s who well exceed them (There are four that fit my criteria I can think of in my local area - (2 of which are owned by good friends and I have ridden). On the USAE list of leading sires there are over 600 stallions listed with offspring who have points at least the low A/O level (level 5) which is not quite there but certainly worth a look :).

Honestly I think my list is pretty minimal really. I am not looking for a grand prix horse (not even close). I want a baby with at least solid 4'0"/4'3" potential (or level 5/6) and able to do some lower level dressage - and while it is still a crapshoot - the only way I know to improve the odds is by using proven stock. I look at eventing and dressage stallions too because many have also sired successful show jumpers.

However to make a point - here is a fairly randon list:

Of the 77 horse who competed in 2004 olympics in show jumping - 26 were stallions. In the 2008 olympics 24 of 60 entries were stallions.

Some more examples:

Here are the WBFSH stallion rankings for 2008:
Dressage

rank stallion points
1 Jazz 12397
2 Donnerhall 10294
3 Weltmeyer 8827
4 Rubinstein I 5146
5 Ferro 4897
6 Flemmingh 4660
7 Master 4638
8 Rohdiamant 4086
9 Ehrentusch 3895
10 Gribaldi 3746
11 Lauries Crusador xx 3707
12 Florestan I 3234
13 Warkant 3202
14 Contango 3172
15 Wanderer 2835
16 Jetset D 2835
17 Schwadroneur 2805
18 Quattro B 2792
19 Goodwill 2469
20 Welt Hit II 2336
21 Donnerschlag 2302
22 Continue 2280
23 Salieri 2234
24 Gardez 2218
25 Carpaccio 2214
26 Wolkenstein II 2128
27 Sao Paulo 2115
28 Espri 2114
29 Singular Joter 2014
30 Herzruf 1919

Show Jumping

rank stallion points
1 Darco 8411,73
2 Quidam de Revel 6913,43
3 Argentinus 4854,72
4 Concorde 4447,00
5 Nabab de Reve 4359,33
6 Caretino 4177,43
7 Burggraaf 3924,95
8 Libero H 3781,95
9 Indoctro 3547,22
10 Papillon Rouge 3463
11 Cassini I 3281,67
12 Voltaire 3164,00
13 Calido 3120,45
14 Indorado 3054,5
15 Polydor 3038,5
16 Guidam 2992,88
17 Carthago 2551,5
18 Contender 2538,5
19 Corrado I 2522,5
20 Calvados 2439,5
21 Emilion 2418
22 Le Tot de Semilly 2402
23 Heartbreaker 2356
24 Apache d'Adriers 2247,5
25 Hamlet 2230,45
26 Diamant de Semilly
27 Mr. Blue 2138
28 Corland 2089,5
29 Acord II 2027
30 Silvio I 1902,5

Eventing

rank stallion points
1 Cavalier Royale 1097
2 Heraldik xx 725
3 Cruising 559
4 Master MP 556
4 Highland King 513
6 Jumbo 406
7 Irish Enough 400
8 Brilliant Invador 359
9 Rock King 353
10 Pallas Digion 335
11 Jensens Man 327
12 Stan the Man xx 325
13 Hand in Glove 308
14 Amerigo Vespucci xx 301
15 Miners Lamp 280
16 Uri du Longbost 280
17 Fleetwater Opposition 268
18 Condrieu xx 251
19 Fines 240
20 Parkmore Night 239
21 Koyuna Majestic Supreme 236
22 Puissance 232
23 Rustic Amber 225
24 Pintado Desperado 224
25 Eighty Eight Keys xx 222
26 Faram 222
27 Stanford 221
28 Voltaire 214
29 Veloce de Favi 213


Another example

International show jumpers by Lauriston:

Promise me Ian Millar
Lauriston Peter Wild/ Sheila Burke
Lausanna Luis Jesus Escobar Jimenez
Laceful Z Oleg Krasyuk
Liberty Life II Carsten Otto Nagel
Laurienta Niels Nanning
Lassandro
Nairobi Ben Schroder
Catapult Billy Twomey/ Michael Whitaker
Annabel Rob Ehrens
Largus Geoff Billington
Agrovorm’s Paddington- Jos Lansink
Volvo’s Santiago - Henri Stegeman
Nicholson - Axel Verlooy
Mumbo - Cindy Perdaen

[belambi]

Chico D'Oro was a top showjumper for Australia. He was palomino. He is listed in the Australian stud book..But is NON THOROUGHBRED (ie he is there for sprint racing.). There was also Peaches and Cream (pally) who competed dressage at Stockholm WEG for Australia.

There are a number of offspring who of other dilute stallions (mainly TB) who are out of hanoverian and holsteiner mares who would be eligible for inclusion if they were a different colour.

Hannoverian is a weird one.. since originally they were cream of some sort werent they??

[ChelseaR]

And to be fair there are some things that are not on my list that are very important to others:

I am not looking for a stallion prospect - A filly or a soon to be gelding are equally good.
I don't care if it looks really fugly until it is three and not suitable for showing in-hand
I am not picky about height - 15'2" and up is fine.
I prefer horse on the hotter side (although good temperment is important)
I am not looking for anything trendy to sell.
Movement type and amount of action is not important as the as it covers the ground well.

While I would prefer a baby who could be registered of course - the breed association is not important - would probably just go with RPSI since they come locally every year.

I don't care about a pretty head.
Hair is not important ;)

Colour is not critical either - I just think it would be cool to have something a little different!


.

[Cartier]

- however to say that there are not very many solid stallion who meet my requirements is ridiculous.

I think you misunderstood. You’re approaching this topic from the perspective of what you think breeders “should do” and I am approaching the topic from the perspective of what they “actually do to break even in business.” In the context of the discussion on this forum and the people who actually post here (who are often trumpeting that their stallion of choice is superior to these dilute stallions), the objective truth is that their stallion of choice’s only claim to fame is his Stallion Test Scores (which do not meet your criteria and frankly, aren’t a whole lot more than what some of these dilute stallions have). I am not saying they are sufficient for evaluating a stallion as the right breeding partner for a given mare. Rather, I think you are holding the dilute stallions to a standard that barns full of widely used solid colored stallions can not meet.

But we need to back up to why breeders make the choices they make and what breeders need to do to make money (or simply break even). First and foremost, the breeder needs to sell the foal as early as possible. To do so they need some accolade to advertise, e.g., “high scoring foal, site champion, unique in the world”; they need a pretty photo; they need some hype behind the pedigree, and often that hype is no more than a registry spokesperson pushing a given stallion’s progeny in a given year. More likely still, the hype is based upon one moment captured on film or at an approval, that hints of the stallion’s future brilliance, a moment that captivates breeders world wide.

His Highness reportedly got 500 mares his first year breeding, which was long before he had any performance credentials. Diarado got god-only knows how many mares last year, some say it was as high as 2000, based upon what? Clearly, if you look at the numbers, breeders are breeding to make a profit in their specific market place (not to produce some upper level competition horse). To even hope to break even, most breeders need to sell their foals, so they use the Hot New Stallion of The Moment, because that is what the market wants. Very few breeders have the desire, resources or ability to take the foals they produce all the way through to a competition career. My point is that you are critical that they do not select for something that, frankly, is not in their financial best interest to select for.

As for your list, we have all seen it and dissected it. Go talk to Tom of Morningside Farm about what the list means in the context of the data itself. You may be surprised. But for the purposes of this discussion, get a hold of the Breeders Guides of the large registries for the past 10-15 years and look at the numbers of foals produced by a given stallion. Overwhelmingly you will see that the most widely used stallions are essentially resting on criteria that you (and I) would consider insufficient. For one registry in particular, the numbers reflect who the registry spokespeople are pushing in a given year, and that is seldom based on a credible performance career.

We bred to Contango in 2003 (to produce Commander, who is now in England with John Whittaker). For years we tracked how many breeders used Contango. Given that for years there was a LFG with Contango, and given his superior credentials for producing versatile and athletic foals, it was abysmal how few breeders actually used him. In the year Commander was born, he was one of 4 Contango foals presented to one of the largest WB registries in this country. There were years where no Contango foals were presented. I think you would be absolutely shocked at the credentials of stallions who got 50 – 100 or more mares per year, while Contango was getting less than 5, sometimes none at all. To get an idea, scan this forum for thread titles about stallions... you will not see one that says, "Tell Me About Your Contango Foal." (This of course excludes the NWAPN, where Contango must have always gotten his best numbers, but still nothing rivaling the top stallions used in the big registries.)

I have no clue why more breeders did not fall all over themselves using Contango, I would guess that the fact that some supposedly knowledgeable people were privately recommending breeders go elsewhere may have had an impact, but it also reflects a simple truth that breeders are actually “voting with their pocket books” based on what is marketable, and that turns out to be a choice that places performance low on the list. I am not saying I agree with it, I am merely saying that we have observed it over the years. And in that regard, dilute stallions are no different than the widely used WB stallions; breeders who use them are selecting based on criteria that does not rely heavily upon credible performance results.

[PineTreeFarm]

I wasn't responding to ChelseaR. ;)

Ok, but how about you answer the question?

Tell me about all this high level competition that takes place at breed shows in performance classes.

[PineTreeFarm]

Maxamillion http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/1GVFMaxamillion.html is currently showing locally in the 4' jumpers and eventing locally as well. There are not many shows at higher heights local to where we are, but now that my health has improved, we hope to start making the longer hauls to get to the bigger shows.

He has competed Training level eventing, schooled over prelim and advanced level cross country courses, and his highest jump under saddle being 5'3". I will let the photos on his website speak for themselves.

:)

I'm always interested in performance records.
Can't find your horse recorded with USEF. Can you tell me which shows he has been competing at? :D Or did you mean that he is competing at unrated shows?
I did find his record on USEA.
Yes, he was 5th in a training diviison with 9 entries.
But he was also eliminated in a Novice division
The only other result is another Novice division where he was 8th of 12.

Not sure exactly where you are but I'm surprised that you can't find any shows with higher fences?

[Cartier]

I'm always interested in performance records.
Can't find your horse recorded with USEF. Can you tell me which shows he has been competing at? :D Or did you mean that he is competing at unrated shows?
I did find his record on USEA.
Yes, he was 5th in a training diviison with 9 entries.
But he was also eliminated in a Novice division
The only other result is another Novice division where he was 8th of 12.

Not sure exactly where you are but I'm surprised that you can't find any shows with higher fences?
Why pick on such an easy target? Why not post the performance records for the top 20 most widely used stallions (of any color) of the top three WB Sporthorse registries in this country for the past ten years.

[Delkredere]

I'm always interested in performance records.
Can't find your horse recorded with USEF. Can you tell me which shows he has been competing at? :D Or did you mean that he is competing at unrated shows?
I did find his record on USEA.
Yes, he was 5th in a training diviison with 9 entries.
But he was also eliminated in a Novice division
The only other result is another Novice division where he was 8th of 12.

Not sure exactly where you are but I'm surprised that you can't find any shows with higher fences?

As I stated, he has been showing locally. Shows this year so far have been MSA, SHMA, BEST, at PGEC in MD.

The novice shows he was in was under another rider. The one he got eliminated in was because of the water obstical which he had never been presented with. the next time out, he was fine (next novice) and then we moved him right up to trianing. At that point his rider moved, and another rider rode him in local jumpers the rest of that season (when I had to fire her to due temper issues towards others at my barn). All of this was 2 years ago when he just started getting out there. I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer and everything stopped for a while with him because of my treatments and money. Because of my medical bills, I have not been able to promote him as I/ would have like and I am now just getting to the point financially to put money toward getting him out there again. His current rider is now wonderful and schools him over 4'-4'6" courses as a standard.

I am in southern, MD. Because of my illness, travelling far has been the issue, as well as having the money for the big shows because of medical bills.

Also, It's not like I only have one photo of him free jumping, or over large fences. There are MANY to prove is capabilities. It actually has been my unfortuant circumstances in life holding him back. I feel like a failure to him. You just pointed the failure out even moreso to me. I see your point.....What you see is what the world sees of him.... not what I see and know he can do. That is the problem with those types of results and also, the problem with people who do not take the time to research further into a stallion by going to see him in person, or finding out why there may not be more performace results as listed. Perhaps the owner had cancer and huge bills to get him where he desrves to be, as in my case. It is the hand I am dealt, and my stallion suffers from my lack of good health and deep pockets. I suppose, I love him too much and am too greedy to pass him onto someone better off. The past few years he has been the inspiration I need to fight a horrible disease and that is worth more than seeing him in any top performance rankings.

Hope this explanation helps justify the lack of results recorded for him.
Hope everyone has a wonderful day. :)

[SilverSpringFarm]

Wouldn't know. I do USEF recognized shows/divisions. Tell us what type of Hunter classes are held and at what height? How about jumpers? What level or height? What types of courses or technical difficulty?

The height range for APHA and AQHA jumper classes is 3.6 to 4 feet. As for the "types" of courses I'm not sure, but I wager that information is in the online rulebooks. The Hunter specs would be there as well.

There's a video of my favorite APHA jumper here. You can see him going through one of the courses at an APHA World Show right around 1:25.

http://www.whiteharvestfarms.com/sacredindian.htm

[TrueColours]

I guess what I have the biggest problem with is the "tone" of the questions being directed towards those that show in "Only Breed Shows" :confused:

Ya know something?

The money from THOSE Mare Owners (the last time I checked anyhow ...) is equally as good as the money from Mare Owners who show on the exalted "A" circuit

The money that good youngsters / horses go for within the AQHA, APHA, Arabian, etc circuits would at times blow the socks off what "we" get for "A" circuit prospects or hunters

Their accomplishments within their breed registry shows and circuit are as highly regarded and exalted as "ours" are within the USEF circuit and shows

I will always remember about 10-15 years ago, our top hunter rider from up here in Canada was asked to ride a hunter in the AQHA World Show in the fall (equal to our Royal Winter Fair, or Harrisburg or Washington, etc) and they went down there thinking they were going to be against a bunch of ya woo's from Bowhonkville, Nowhere and if the horse didnt knock down all the rails, it would win the class

They were gobsmacked to put it mildly at the QUALITY of the horses in those classes and when they returned, pronounced that they could go to any American or Canadian top "A" show anywhere and be competitive

Just because "these people" CHOOSE to show in breed registry shows instead of "A" level USEF shows, does not point to a lack of quality and ability in the animal being shown. FAR from it ... ;)

So - to insinuate that THEIR horses that show in hunter and jumper classes away from the USEF sanctioned shows are of lesser quality and lower ability and dont warrant the time and effort to discuss them in a "Sport Horse" forum for some strange reason, is just so damned wrong, narrow minded and elitist

In my ever so humble opinion, as always, anyhow ... ;)

And LOVED your post BTW cartier - so much of it makes SO much sense ... :)

[sniplover]

Also, It's not like I only have one photo of him free jumping, or over large fences. There are MANY to prove is capabilities. It actually has been my unfortuant circumstances in life holding him back.

That is one of my absolute favorite things about your website. As a 'for-fun' photographer, I watch and capture courses fence by fence and it is amazing how poorly some horses will make it around fences of any size, then have one beautiful fence. It's my "job" to capture that fence, and it is, of course, the one they want and then display. It always makes me a little leery to see only a handful of pictures of a stallion performing o/f, particularly hunters and particularly those lower level jumps. It's so easy to 'fake it' well enough to get good ones for a website - almost every seller does it. Yet a friend of mine just bred to a very nice GOV-approved stallion who shows dressage but looks to be throwing hunters... he has one honestly TERRIBLE picture of him over fences traveling away from the camera. Poor marketing, even if we can 'see' through that waste-of-space picture. The video they have isn't anything to write home about either... lots of cuts make me think there's things like bad fences, refusals, general poor behavior the owner doesn't want me to see.

So to me, seeing hundreds of pictures of Max jumping, going out fox hunting, etc, in very good form is truly impressive. You just can't fake it that many times, and it lends confidence. Also, I like the video of him u/s over the 5' jump chute - I like that it doesn't cut a lot, and I can see how nicely he settles afterwards instead of being a great flipping idiot like some can be. If I had a great mare (does any stallion deserve less?) and was breeding for myself, I think Max could be a very serious contender for my $$... and I am not a 'color' person. Most of my horses are sand and dirt colored when I see them anyway ;) :lol:

[JB]

Agree TCF!!!

Not to mention, I don't BLAME those folks for choosing the *gasp* breed shows over USEF A shows - have you SEEN some of the prizes those folks can win? :eek:

[SilverSpringFarm]

The money that good youngsters / horses go for within the AQHA, APHA, Arabian, etc circuits would at times blow the socks off what "we" get for "A" circuit prospects or hunters.

I can attest to that. I would kill to find a quality Sacred Indian daughter in my price range.

[TrueColours]

Not to mention, I don't BLAME those folks for choosing the *gasp* breed shows over USEF A shows - have you SEEN some of the prizes those folks can win?


Oh ya! :D

Trailers and trucks and fully outfitted tack rooms with custom racks and travelling bags. Saddles, bridles, etc

A TON more money than we could ever dream of in "Hunterland"! :)

Some of the top barrel racers will pull in over $100,000 a year in prize money alone PLUS win a truck and/or trailer as well!

Hmmmm ... wonder if GG wants to go and learn how to run around 3 barrels very very fast instead?! :lol:

I can attest to that. I would kill to find a quality Sacred Indian daughter in my price range.

Out of curiosity, from that stallion (who is ackowledged as being of the top WP and HUS and Hunter stallions to use) what are his nice weanlings, yearlings and backed 2 and 3 year olds going for?

[Blonde Filly]

You know it is quite interesting that so many go on and on about "color does not matter, don't like color and always putting down "color breeding" but we now have about 10 threads going on and on and asking about the "color" horses and in particular "dilute" and not pinto. Just because we are breeding for color does not mean there is NOT quality too. There are many quality horses out there, but the cost of showing them first and then selling them is so costly the offspring would have to start at 50k to make up your cost. Anyone who has shown a mare and then breeds the mare it would take the mares entire life time to produce and sell enough foals to "maybe" break even if they showed at the highest levels utnil say they were 10 years old and then retired to breeding..I highly doubt you could ever sell enough foals for competitive prices to move them to make up for the showing, boarding and ect in fees to show the mare. It is very hard to breed and show at the same time and make it "profitable"..unless you live on a trust fund with unlimited money..but most of us must make the numbers work.

I know ie a mare that showed and did put in all the money to do all the showing, down the road someone will not pay more for the foal that was out of a "shown" mare verses an unshown mare...that are the same quality is not going to pay more for the foal out of the "shown" mare. I find people are looking for the best quality of the foal they are buying..not what the mare or stallion did or did not do and cost is a big factor too.

[Hi Jump]

Maybe there is reverse discrimination, maybe if you had a coloured stallion you would be getting recognition that a plain bay would not;

Cartier : "I am curious, who are all these solid WB stallions who have competed to this level? Many stallions never do more than pass their stallion testing as a three year old. That is the laurel they rest on for life. They do not ever compete to the levels you mention above."

Given my stallion Raffaello had a impairing injury in Europe , he rests on having done the 100 day test and has no upper level performance, yet has won consistantly in hunter , jumper and dressage every year concurrently with being utilized heavily for on demand breeding. Therefore he might fall into your perception of an unproven stallion that only did the hundred day test .

Our Holstein stallion Cotopaxi however ... has shown A rated level 7 Grand Prix showjumping for the last two years and achieved a 71% premium foals in his breed registry (out of outside mares) breeding throughout his show season. Despite the plain brown wrapper , he has achieved his lifetime approved status in sport.

Lisa , Synergy Sporthorses
Home to Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[AnotherRound]

Are there any dilute TBs or WBs with real performance results? Or who have offspring with results? Something above lower levels?
I haven't seen any yet and am curious as I like the colours.

Wow, now I see why they call you folks Krazy! Here is the OP with a simple question - performance in a stallion, show me, This OP wanted to know if there were any color stallions with performance records. One KKB is all over the place about why you don't need performance records. Another wants to justify their lack of performance based on how she has been so sick, but push her stallion because she says he can do it all, and has photos to prove it, only he just iddn't like the water obstacle but he did it the next time around. Not a rated show, but it could have been!!! Another KKB thinks in hand breed records should count for something.

The OP is breeding for performance, states clearly she wants a performance stallion first and a Kolor second, and the KKBs are just wetting themselves over their poor performers trying to boost them up against performance scruitiny.

I am still waiting to see someone present a horse who is performing and being shown at the higher levels. Is anyone actually doing that with their Color Stallion?

[avadog]

Hannoverian is a weird one.. since originally they were cream of some sort werent they??
I don't Hanoverian originally were cream.

[Cartier]

Cartier : "I am curious, who are all these solid WB stallions who have competed to this level? Many stallions never do more than pass their stallion testing as a three year old. That is the laurel they rest on for life. They do not ever compete to the levels you mention above."

Given my stallion Raffaello had a impairing injury in Europe , he rests on having done the 100 day test and has no upper level performance, yet has won consistantly in hunter , jumper and dressage every year concurrently with being utilized heavily for on demand breeding. Therefore he might fall into your perception of an unproven stallion that only did the hundred day test .

Home to Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

I am not exactly sure what your point is. I never used the term "unproven stallion."

If you read my posts #33 and #35 on this thread, you might get a better idea of my points, and you may agree that we are not in disagreement on any point I can identify. I am not saying that it is a bad thing that breeders rely upon Stallion Test scores. Rather, I am saying that as a fact, they do, for a wide variety of reasons, some of which I mentioned. And, stallion test scores do not meet the OP's criteria for a performance record. Many of the most widely used stallions in the big three registries finished in the middle of the pack at their stallion testing, and then had no performance career to speak of, yet they get more mares in a single year than stallions like Contango get in a lifetime (with the big three WB registries). And though I'm sure you know this, some readers here may not, so, to make this easy for everyone, Contango won both the jumping and the dressage portions of his stallion testing, he was for years the highest scoring stallion ever imported to the USA, he has offspring competing at GP in jumpers and dressage, he had a GP dressage career, and pretty much is the GOLD Standard for what sport horse breeders should be using as a bench mark.


Btw, we still have have video from Doug, from years and years ago, before the all the stuff hit the fan, I think with your stallion Cotopaxi on it.

[SilverSpringFarm]

Out of curiosity, from that stallion (who is ackowledged as being of the top WP and HUS and Hunter stallions to use) what are his nice weanlings, yearlings and backed 2 and 3 year olds going for?

Sadly, he passed away in 2006... :cry:

He no longer has frozen semen available either.

Right now on Dreamhorse there are 4 horses by him for sale. They range in age from 6 to 15. $25K, $17K, $9.5K and $8.5K.

Truth be told, his "best" get never come up for sale. People won't let them go!

[Mythology]

Wow, now I see why they call you folks Krazy! Here is the OP with a simple question - performance in a stallion, show me, This OP wanted to know if there were any color stallions with performance records. One KKB is all over the place about why you don't need performance records. Another wants to justify their lack of performance based on how she has been so sick, but push her stallion because she says he can do it all, and has photos to prove it, only he just iddn't like the water obstacle but he did it the next time around. Not a rated show, but it could have been!!! Another KKB thinks in hand breed records should count for something.

The OP is breeding for performance, states clearly she wants a performance stallion first and a Kolor second, and the KKBs are just wetting themselves over their poor performers trying to boost them up against performance scruitiny.

I am still waiting to see someone present a horse who is performing and being shown at the higher levels. Is anyone actually doing that with their Color Stallion?

Chablis and Brenstein and Glitter Please is or were doing Grand Prix Dressage.

[SilverSpringFarm]

I don't Hanoverian originally were cream.

I think she's referring to the "Royal Hanoverian Creams."

If I remember correctly, they are considered a separate breed from the Hanoverians we know today. They supposedly went extinct.

http://www.newdilutions.com/RHC/index.htm

[ChelseaR]

Don't forget that my question comes from someone who only wants to breed one mare in the next few years. I only (hopefully) have to pay one stud fee and of course all the other associated costs so I can afford to be picky. I am also in no way looking to make money - horses eat money.

I don't care how many breedings the stallion gets in a year as long as the offspring that are old enough are showing they can perform (or that the stallion himself has). I don't care if the stallion owner is making a lot of money or not (I imagine it is hard to even manage to break even).

With my one mare I don't want to breed to a stallion without proven results and although I have a couple youngsters (actually bought one and for a variety of reasons was given a pregnant mare as part of the package) I have only bred one of my mares a couple times and the last one was almost eight years ago (damn didn't realize it was that long - I'm getting old!).

There is nothing wrong with breeding for other markets of course and coloured stallions seen to have a nice niche anyhow and are in high demand.

Breed shows are a lot of fun - I consider buying a nice quarter horse one day to show in the hunter classes.

I know nothing about dilute stallions except for the few that have been posted here. I just have always wanted a palomino jumper basically for sentimental reasons - knew one as a kid that was really cool and have wanted one ever since (buckskin is cool too).

I see that there are a few stallions posted here that might work for next spring. I plan on investigating them more and watching the videos.

It was an honest question - not trying to pick on anyone.

[Delkredere]

Another wants to justify their lack of performance based on how she has been so sick, but push her stallion because she says he can do it all, and has photos to prove it, only he just iddn't like the water obstacle but he did it the next time around. Not a rated show, but it could have been!!!

I am not justifying, just stating my unfortuant, realistic facts of why he hasn't gotten to where I hoped and feel he could be. If cancer is not a justifiable "excuse", then I suppose there would never be a reason justifiable enough for you.

I never said he could "do it all"...I don't know of a horse who can. I DO have photos to back up what I say he has done- moreso than MOST, so why attack me? As for the water, I was explaining the reasoning for elimination, as should be allowed. It is not an excuse, it is the truth, and I am not embarrased, or ashamed of his level of training at the time. He was green and new at cross country. Don't all horses have to start somewhere?

I don't understand what you mean about a "rated show but could have been" comment so I cannot comment other than, I stated LOCAL shows. I am not fluffing, or buffing what he has done.

I know I have held him back, and it is my fault. It doesn't mean he is not a nice horse.

And the insult about KKB is simply immature. If you don't like them, walk away. It's not nice to put down something others might like. To each their own.

[Cartier]

The OP is breeding for performance, states clearly she wants a performance stallion first and a Kolor second, and the KKBs are just wetting themselves over their poor performers trying to boost them up against performance scruitiny.

I am still waiting to see someone present a horse who is performing and being shown at the higher levels. Is anyone actually doing that with their Color Stallion?

Incendiary hyperbole aside, a pinto is generally considered a colored stallion, so “yes”, Utah van Erpekom has had, by the OP’s definition a credible performance career… and “yes” there are some dilute TB stallion that have done well in sport too. If the op is making the comparison between solid and dilute WB stallions, many of the widely used solid stallions used in sporthorse breeding would fall short of her mark too.

[Mythology]

and “no” there is no dilute TB stallion that has gone as far in sport.

Glitter Please- TB Grand Prix Dressage Palomino stallion

[Mythology]

oops sorry just saw you changed it... :)

[Cartier]

Glitter Please- TB Grand Prix Dressage Palomino stallion Thank you. :) I immediately realized that I had made a mistake and edited my post, but I did so so fast that it does not show the post was edited.

and now you've seen my post and posted again :lol: I can't keep up... but I think we both can agree, Glitter Please was a beautiful stallion.

[Mythology]

I am not justifying, just stating my unfortuant, realistic facts of why he hasn't gotten to where I hoped and feel he could be. If cancer is not a justifiable "excuse", then I suppose there would never be a reason justifiable enough for you.

I never said he could "do it all"...I don't know of a horse who can. I DO have photos to back up what I say he has done- moreso than MOST, so why attack me? As for the water, I was explaining the reasoning for elimination, as should be allowed. It is not an excuse, it is the truth, and I am not embarrased, or ashamed of his level of training at the time. He was green and new at cross country. Don't all horses have to start somewhere?

I don't understand what you mean about a "rated show but could have been" comment so I cannot comment other than, I stated LOCAL shows. I am not fluffing, or buffing what he has done.

I know I have held him back, and it is my fault. It doesn't mean he is not a nice horse.

And the insult about KKB is simply immature. If you don't like them, walk away. It's not nice to put down something others might like. To each their own.

I undersatnd and I'm sorry about your diagnosis- I hope you now have a clean billl of health.
I had a "problem" horse come to us that had issues. His first year of showing was him refusing out of tons of 2'6 jumper classes- Now he is competing in the national standard grand prix- so hang in there. I know one water refusal doesn't make a bad horse...

[Mythology]

:lol:

Thank you. :) I immediately realized that I had made a mistake and edited my post, but I did so so fast that it does not show the post was edited.

and now you've seen my post and posted again :lol: I can't keep up... but I think we both can agree, Glitter Please was a beautiful stallion.


Agreed ;)

[foxhavenfarm]

Another wants to justify their lack of performance based on how she has been so sick, but push her stallion because she says he can do it all, and has photos to prove it, only he just iddn't like the water obstacle but he did it the next time around. Not a rated show, but it could have been!!!


Are you KIDDING me? Honestly, I was going to keep my mouth shut on this subject completely, but to bash someone like this because she has been sick!?!? Talk about a TOTAL lack of class.

BTW Delkredere, I love your stallion! He looks really nice and if we bred other than Thoroughbreds I would consider him in a heartbeat. :)

[SilverSpringFarm]

Are you KIDDING me? Honestly, I was going to keep my mouth shut on this subject completely, but to bash someone like this because she has been sick!?!? Talk about a TOTAL lack of class.

I concur. Obviously AnotherRound lives in some sort of fantasy world where health problems don't exist and money grows on trees. She must be very well acquainted with how easily, cheaply and QUICKLY horse can be brought to the top levels in sport. :rolleyes:

I do hope she posts pictures for us of her own licensed stallions, PSG level dressage horses and GP jumpers. Then she can give us "Krazy Kolor Breeders" helpful tips on how she easily afforded to get them there on a middle class salary.

[Mythology]

I concur. Obviously AnotherRound lives in some sort of fantasy world where health problems don't exist and money grows on trees. She must be very well acquainted with how easily, cheaply and QUICKLY horse can be brought to the top levels in sport. :rolleyes:

I do hope she posts pictures for us of her own licensed stallions, PSG level dressage horses and GP jumpers. Then she can give us "Krazy Kolor Breeders" helpful tips on how she easily afforded to get them there on a middle class salary.

I'm sure if she wans't so busy giving lunge line/yoga lessons she would have tons of GP Stallions competing internationally. I mean give the woman a break! It's not like she's going on a color horse thread and insulting all breeders of colored horses while at the same time sarcastically insulting a woman with advanced breast cancer just trying to do her best by her stallion... oh wait...

[SilverSpringFarm]

I'm sure if she wans't so busy giving lunge line/yoga lessons she would have tons of GP Stallions competing internationally. I mean give the woman a break! It's not like she's going on a color horse thread and insulting all breeders of colored horses while at the same time sarcastically insulting a woman with advanced breast cancer just trying to do her best by her stallion... oh wait...

:lol:

The funniest (and most accurate) post I've read in a long time!

[PineTreeFarm]

The height range for APHA and AQHA jumper classes is 3.6 to 4 feet. As for the "types" of courses I'm not sure, but I wager that information is in the online rulebooks. The Hunter specs would be there as well.

There's a video of my favorite APHA jumper here. You can see him going through one of the courses at an APHA World Show right around 1:25.

http://www.whiteharvestfarms.com/sacredindian.htm

Really?

AQHA rules book says 3'6" max. Usually lower around 3'3". LOL

Competiton at a breed show can not be compared to H/J competition at a USEF rated show. No course standards, judges can be variable, fence heights are lower and the competition is restricted as opposed to open competition. Often course design isn't up to the same standards as rated shows nor are the jump materials.

Attempting to justify a dilute horses performance record by using results ( mostly unverifiable ) from breed or unrated is an apples and orange approach. It's a very weak argument.

I have nothing against odd colors. But the main goal is a horse that can do the job. And using this type of 'show record' to try and claim they are just as good as a solid horse is not making a good case.

[SilverSpringFarm]

Really?

AQHA rules book says 3'6" max. Usually lower around 3'3". LOL

Competiton at a breed show can not be compared to H/J competition at a USEF rated show. No course standards, judges can be variable, fence heights are lower and the competition is restricted as opposed to open competition. Often course design isn't up to the same standards as rated shows nor are the jump materials.

The book actually states "usually lower"?

I got the heights out of the APHA rulebook. I assumed AQHA was the same as most of the classes parallel each other. So sue me. YOU asked a simple question. I answered it. Don't focus your biased rhetoric on me now.

LOL.

Attempting to justify a dilute horses performance record by using results ( mostly unverifiable ) from breed or unrated is an apples and orange approach. It's a very weak argument.

I don't show in breed shows, I doubt I ever will... But this is the most asinine statement I have ever read. In addition, every single point an AQHA or APHA horse earns is absolutely (and easily) verifiable.

[RiddleMeThis]

Competiton at a breed show can not be compared to H/J competition at a USEF rated show. No course standards, judges can be variable, fence heights are lower and the competition is restricted as opposed to open competition. The point was not to compare them for the OP. The point was that there is a whole nother area that exists OUTSIDE of A shows. The point was that the horses going to breed shows are JUST as imporatant to a SO as a horse competing at the "A's" and someitmes more because they can bring in much more money. NOT for the OP to chose a stallion based on breed show perforamance.

Attempting to justify a dilute horses performance record by using results ( mostly unverifiable ) from breed or unrated is an apples and orange approach. It's a very weak argument.And again, that was not the point

[DownYonder]

I think there were several factors affecting the number of mares Contango attracted.

1) He was EVA positive, and a lot of mare owners just are not interested in having to vaccinate/quarantine their mares.

2) He wasn’t known as a foal-maker, so people looking for quick sales of their foals looked to other stallions.

3) There was also a promotion issue – although Iron Spring would run ads in the major publications, many of these ads did not specify that he was approved by registries other than KWPN. He was also usually described in those ads as a Dutch WB (he was actually an Oldenburg), so non-Dutch WB breeders may have just sort of automatically overlooked him.

As far as performance careers of the top N.A. based warmblood stallions (in terms of number of breedings), I think it might be interesting to discuss this on another thread and not take this thread about dilute stallions further off topic.

[Hi Jump]

Cartier, I am not trying to make this a personal saga but I was thinking of my own as typical standing WB stallions , one has competed well and consistantly with versatility but not high level , but for good reason, my own decision not to push him when I know he is challenged by a circumstance and physical injury prior to his importation. The other stallion I stand actually does compete at a level that meets those standards you were refering to.

Cartier : "I am curious, who are all these solid WB stallions who have competed to this level? Many stallions never do more than pass their stallion testing as a three year old. That is the laurel they rest on for life. They do not ever compete to the levels you mention above."

So I point out that there are WB stallions that do compete exceeding these levels , they simply are not recognized much, whereas if they were pinto or palomino, well I imagine they would have been recognized time and again on this forum . Hence my comment on reverse discrimination which is not meant to be taken seriously by anyone.


Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net
Fun with Cotopaxi 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KROMhzUfm4s

(2009 Coto went in his first class ever a few weeks back with young rider Niko Goyette and was fifth in the Pepiniere Grand Prix )

[Nojacketrequired]

That is one of my absolute favorite things about your website. As a 'for-fun' photographer, I watch and capture courses fence by fence and it is amazing how poorly some horses will make it around fences of any size, then have one beautiful fence. It's my "job" to capture that fence, and it is, of course, the one they want and then display. It always makes me a little leery to see only a handful of pictures of a stallion performing o/f, particularly hunters and particularly those lower level jumps. It's so easy to 'fake it' well enough to get good ones for a website - almost every seller does it.

And so does this one. Have a look at the "piaffe" photo under "Older Pics". No WAY that's not Photoshopped, and if it ISN"T I'll eat my helmet.

Makes one wonder about the other pics on the site.

Gorgeous stallion, but stuff like that makes one wonder....especially if you WERE considering him for a dressage crossing.

NJR

Editted to note that the owner has taken down the photoshopped pic which was originally on the site and points out that it was just a joke to make her stallion look like he was showing piaffe under dressage tack. She didn't mean to misrepresent him or mislead anyone into thinking he was really showing dressage at that level.

[SilverSpringFarm]

And so does this one. Have a look at the "piaffe" photo under "Older Pics". No WAY that's not Photoshopped, and if it ISN"T I'll eat my helmet.

Makes one wonder about the other pics on the site.

Gorgeous stallion, but stuff like that makes one wonder....especially if you WERE considering him for a dressage crossing.

NJR

What do you think was photoshopped? I see what was originally a very dark indoor arena photo that had the brightness adjusted waaaay up in order to show the horse better. As a result the background got VERY bright. When the brightness and contrast are adjusted to such an extent it makes the image look somewhat cartoon-like.

I'm a graphic designer and I work part-time as a freelance photographer. I've worked with film and digital images for almost 15 years. I don't see any funny business in that photo.

[3Dogs]

good god, the colored breeding posts have gotten out of control -

how about just posts about good horses, some of whom may have color.
Now if that is all you breed for, ie color, great, post away - and announce yourselves as breeders of color - no matter what!

[Nojacketrequired]

http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/2008/MaxUnedit.jpg

I swear that shot used to sport a double bridle, and a dressage coat on the rider to make it appear to be a piaffe on purpose, rather than a little silliness during a jumper round. I saw it a few months ago when I was looking.

Perhaps that's why now the picture sports the file name of "Maxunedit"? Maybe she's already been called on it and corrected it so it wasn't so...misleading.

NJR
Editted:
Again, owner has removed the photoshopped image that made her stallion look like he was showing piaffe under dressage tack. Apparently I wasn't the only one who noticed it, as she mentions that people on some other board gave her a hard time about it and she explained it was just a joke.

[Mythology]

good god, the colored breeding posts have gotten out of control -

how about just posts about good horses, some of whom may have color.
Now if that is all you breed for, ie color, great, post away - and announce yourselves as breeders of color - no matter what!

I don't understand the problem your having with this thread?
What about this thread makes you feel that opinions of color breeders are different than non color breeders?

Yes, some color breeders will accept some not registerable breeds, but so do some non colored breeders.
Yes, colored breeders are sensitive to percieved slights about their program, but so are every other horse breeder and rider out there.
I can link to numerous threads all over the board that get into heated discussions about differing opinions. Isn't that what this board is for- Discussion, exchange of ideas? Do you think hundreds of people are going to discuss their horse related opinions and not get into a debate?

I personally breed non color and some color because I like it. ALL my horses are Registered with European registries and have excellent, well known bloodlines. 90% of my foals made premuim. My husband is a Grand prix Jumper and I am a Regular Working Hunter. We've competed on the circuit for 20 years and even won a few big classes.
What is wrong with that?
And yes I consider myself a color breeder.

[3Dogs]

Right - so why are there so many threads lately that are headed as "colored, dilute, spotted" - you breed HORSES - you breed sport horses - that some are of color, no never mind. Why must the color be the issue instead of the performance aspect - you answered my question by your post. You breed for the best sporthorses - that some have "color" is not what makes your horses good or unique.





I don't understand the problem your having with this thread?
What about this thread makes you feel that opinions of color breeders are different than non color breeders?

Yes, some color breeders will accept some not registerable breeds, but so do some non colored breeders.
Yes, colored breeders are sensitive to percieved slights about their program, but so are every other horse breeder and rider out there.
I can link to numerous threads all over the board that get into heated discussions about differing opinions. Isn't that what this board is for- Discussion, exchange of ideas? Do you think hundreds of people are going to discuss their horse related opinions and not get into a debate?

I personally breed non color and some color because I like it. ALL my horses are Registered with European registries and have excellent, well known bloodlines. 90% of my foals made premuim. My husband is a Grand prix Jumper and I am a Regular Working Hunter. We've competed on the circuit for 20 years and even won a few big classes.
What is wrong with that?
And yes I consider myself a color breeder.

[Mythology]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your previous post.
Yes most of us breed with color in mind, but not specifically for color, though some breed for color first and that's their personal choice. I think the reason for so many color related posts is that there are so few of us and the number of quality horses with color is going up so quickly it's just a place to exchange information and chat about our one true love, genetics. And since we're all Genetics junkies it gives us an oppertunity to point out new studies and new crosses with different bloodlines as well as discuss the preformance and breeding carreers of the current studs offering color. At least thats why I'm here posting all day while I'm home sick. :D

[DuffyAgain]

I have to admit it. I don't get it.

A correct horse is a correct horse, no matter what it's color. I almost bought a 2 yr old pinto filly. Yes, her color was cool, but it was her movement and conformation (based on pics and videos) that got me to the middle of the country to look at her.

While I surely don't mind a bit of color, they have to actually be BETTER than their more conservative counter-parts to excel, (at least in the hunter world). Kind of hard to hide a loud one in an u/s class! You better move like a dream or forgetaboutit! ;)

Some of the white/cremello/albino/whatever stallions are NOT my cup of tea. Personally, I don't like the look of the pink/yellowish eyes, etc. IF they produce correct and athletic individuals, fine. But, if all they're producing is color - NOT good. And for those looking only to produce color - NOT good either.

I'm not saying their get has to be world-beaters in whatever field they aspire to, but please let them be correct, sound and of good mind.

[sniplover]

NJR - I'd be shocked and eat *my* helmet if the piaffe picture IS edited, other than adjusted for brightness/contrast. Most people can't fake a simple reflection, let alone one distorted like the mirror behind her - especially make it match perfectly.

Likewise, I'm doubtful of the "Unedit" picture - I think it's named exactly for that - it's unedited.

[Nojacketrequired]

WHatever, SNip...I KNOW I saw that same pic as the link I posted, (NOT the mirro one), done in full dressage gear and obviously 'Shopped, not 6 months ago. I just glanced again when the site was mentioned and ASSumed it was the same photoshopped pic, without bothering to look closely to see that it was the original. I KNOW I saw it 'Shopped, because I remember thinking WTF? WHY would someone do such a stupid thing and chance wrecking their credibily?

Anyhow, the editted one is obviously removed, so no harm no foul, I suppose.

NJR

Aha! You can never erase anything from the Web!
(Link of Photoshopped pic, apparently showing stallion doing piaffe under dressage tack which was, removed) Owner explains that this photo was just a joke and wasn't meant to misrepresent her stallion to potential clients.

[Delkredere]

WHatever, SNip...I KNOW I saw that same pic as the link I posted, (NOT the mirro one), done in full dressage gear and obviously 'Shopped, not 6 months ago. I just glanced again when the site was mentioned and ASSumed it was the same photoshopped pic, without bothering to look closely to see that it was the original. I KNOW I saw it 'Shopped, because I remember thinking WTF? WHY would someone do such a stupid thing and chance wrecking their credibily?

Anyhow, the editted one is obviously removed, so no harm no foul, I suppose.

NJR

Aha! You can never erase anything from the Web!
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a15/beautifulbrowbands/Maxjdressage1a.jpg

NJR.. this subject was exhausted over on TMP where you saw and/or were engaged in the discussion (this was never discussed on COTH), and where I willingly and openly came forward to explain, as it was also captioned for said "edited" photo directly on my website, about the "joke" of the photo. It was placed there originally because of the cliché' all stallion photos are "edited" and since I did not have an "edited" one on my site... we just "HAD" to put one "OVERLY edited" photo somewhere on the site as a joke. I have/had already *immediately*, *willingly*, *honestly*, agreed, as stated, the photo was an edited one.

As NJR is displaying, some people use any little thing they can to make a person look dishonest, even when they explain the reasoning behind the photo on the site it lived on. This response here is yet another continued attempt to make me look dishonest (from a 6+ month old dead discussion on another forum to boot.) even after I explained our "joke" immediately and came forth to openly discuss the photo. When the edited photo was placed there, along with joke statement, I supposed I was not thinking of the possible people who would not "get it", see just the photo, not read the statement, and think I was dishonest. It was a bad decision on my part in attempts to be lighthearted about a clichéd topic of over editing.

You bring up another subject with your comment, - copyright infringement. Perhaps you missed where it clearly states "Sorry, no photo use permitted" on my site- this includes linking. Can you please explain why you think you can just do what you want with people’s photos, bash an honest person, try and take a thread and spiral it downwards? What purpose do you get out of this?

I, personally, do not wish to engage in argumentative discussions with anyone, such as your loaded comments are an example of. I do not wish to disrespect others or resort to such backyard attempts in degrading someone, and I will not have someone do it to me. This type of behavior is what starts wars on BB’s, gives them bad reps, and I wish no part of such games. I admit to falling prey many times to these attempts, when I was naive to this type of internet "play". Been there, done that, then I grew up!

This is not a game to me, it is a business, and I want to represent myself and horse honestly. No more jokes, or even 1 edited photo ever again. All I can do is simply offer forth as many unedited photos as possible for people to be able to make their breeding decision off of. It all comes down to what people like and what they are seeking to compliment their mare. He is what he is, as all the unedited photos show. :)

[M. O'Connor]

I am curious, who are all these solid WB stallions who have competed to this level? Many stallions never do more than pass their stallion testing as a three year old. That is the laurel they rest on for life. They do not ever compete to the levels you mention above. If you look at number of foals sired in a given year (or cumulatively over a lifetime), Hilltop Farm’s stallions Riverman and Contucci are/ were very popular stallions, yet they did not compete at the level you set forth above. And there widely used stallions that actually have 4th level scores, there are some that even got to GP a decade or so ago, yet if you actually saw them (or video of them) in competition, you’d probably laugh out loud. The group of stallions who actually achieve credible performance careers is much smaller than you think. I suspect that you are judging dilute stallions to a standard very few WB or WB approved stallions ever achieve.

It may be a small number, but at least they have done it:

Off the top of my head, I can come up with nearly a dozen names just in GPx showjumping, all standing currently and all available as a primary sire (not a son of, etc).

Judgement, Hickstead, Baloubet, Darco, Quiddam, Salut, Carlow Clover, Freedom Z, As di Villagana, Conejo, and I'm not even trying....there are many more.

None of them are 'of color.'

[JB]

Right - so why are there so many threads lately that are headed as "colored, dilute, spotted" - you breed HORSES - you breed sport horses - that some are of color, no never mind. Why must the color be the issue instead of the performance aspect - you answered my question by your post. You breed for the best sporthorses - that some have "color" is not what makes your horses good or unique.

It's breeding season. This comes up Every. Single. Breeding season here ;)

*I* love color! I also want a sporthorse. I am looking at stallions who are firstly a sporthorse sire, but they *also* need to have color and preferably be guaranteed to pass that along. If I can't find one, I may not even breed. Or I may "settle" for a nice stallion who is only 50/50 going to pass color *because* he's still a nice.

Other people (most people probably) don't care about color - take it or leave it - and another set don't even want color, not spots, not dilutes, not anything more than "normal" white markings and even then they don't want leg white too high.

Some people want a short-backed horse. Some want a long back. Some want this or that. SOME of us want color.

[JB]

I have to admit it. I don't get it.
That's ok, I don't get the love affair some have with the "plain" chestnut ;)

A correct horse is a correct horse, no matter what it's color.
No one states otherwise :)

Some of the white/cremello/albino/whatever stallions are NOT my cup of tea. Personally, I don't like the look of the pink/yellowish eyes, etc. IF they produce correct and athletic individuals, fine. But, if all they're producing is color - NOT good. And for those looking only to produce color - NOT good either.
Again, no one here disagrees :) Lots of people really are creeped out by the double dilutes. I can totally understand that. I think they're cool, but then again I like the hairless cat :cool: I think even some of their owners aren't terribly fond of the double dilute color either, but they like the horse for what he is beyond his color and they LOVE him/her for breeding purposes because of the guaranteed dilute offspring. So, they deal with the "icky" double dilute.

I'm not saying their get has to be world-beaters in whatever field they aspire to, but please let them be correct, sound and of good mind.
Yep, nobody here disagrees!

[TrueColours]

Personally, I don't like the look of the pink/yellowish eyes, etc.

I know when Guaranteed Gold was owned by the Dekkers, Mrs Dekker said GG's eyes gave her the creeps. She couldnt even look at them - they really bothered her ...

We've had friends come over to see the horses and when they see the eyes on the DD's, they go "WHHHOOOOOAAAAA!!!!! :eek: That is freaky! :eek: Is that like a defect or something? :eek: Are they albino's??? :eek: Freak me out man ... :lol: "

It's breeding season. This comes up Every. Single. Breeding season here

Yup. Sure does. Sure as death and taxes it comes up. Every. Single. Year. If not more often ... ;)

Heck - thats why I am now trying for more smoky blacks in my breeding program. To appeal to those who want a dilute but dont necessarily want it to be an in-your-face-dilute like a palomino or buckskin can be

Nothing surprises me anymore. People want what they want for very specific and personal reasons and its pointless to try and judge and/or guess why they attach so much important to certain attributes that might not matter all that much to anyone else ... :)

[SilverSpringFarm]

Right - so why are there so many threads lately that are headed as "colored, dilute, spotted" - you breed HORSES - you breed sport horses - that some are of color, no never mind. Why must the color be the issue instead of the performance aspect - you answered my question by your post. You breed for the best sporthorses - that some have "color" is not what makes your horses good or unique.

The OP stated that she was interested in both performance results AND color. Where do you get off thinking that performance isn't a primary focus?

I really don't understand your qualm with people that have a preference for color.

When you buy a new car you pick the color.

When you build a house you pick the colors that go inside and out.

When you purchase an article of clothing you pick the color.

Some people like black labs, other people like chocolate labs. Some people like brindle mastiffs, other people like fawn mastiffs. Some people like siamese cats, other people like calicos. Need I go on?

Why is having a color preference for a horse any different?

The OP obviously has a preference for a particular color of horse. The color happens to be quite rare so she asks for suggestions in order to get some help in making the best choice for her mare. What's so strange about that?

[RiddleMeThis]

Right - so why are there so many threads lately that are headed as "colored, dilute, spotted" - you breed HORSES - you breed sport horses - that some are of color, no never mind. Why must the color be the issue instead of the performance aspect - you answered my question by your post.

None of them are 'of color.'
Im going to reanswer your question.

Horses of color come up because they ARENT the norm. The majority are not competing at Olympic level, and thus they arent easy for the public to find.

These threads are NEEDED to help MO find stallions that meet their requirements.


I don't see the difference between having multiple threads about which stallions of color are the best and why , and multiple threads about stallions that shorten backs and which of them are the best.

Both are just things that MOs want in there offspring.

Both are about

[Nojacketrequired]

This is not a game to me, it is a business, and I want to represent myself and horse honestly. No more jokes, or even 1 edited photo ever again. All I can do is simply offer forth as many unedited photos as possible for people to be able to make their breeding decision off of.

THat's really all we, as potential customers, can ask, isn't it? When I saw that photo originally, while looking at your stallion, I saw no note at all that it was a joke of any kind. I, and perhaps others as you seem to state, saw it recognized it as 'shopped and were turned off.

Glad you won't do that anymore, as it really isn't in your best interests.

I'll take the link down, if you'd like, but the fact remains that you DID 'shop a pic on your site that misrepresented your horse. No need to get mad at me. You put it up there and it sounds like you only took it down when others gave you a hard time?

NJR

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;4160222]

Because the percentage of dilute stallions is very low so far I was just wondering if there were any dilute stallions that I could consider without giving up my performance requirements as I like the colours but not at the expense of ability or temperment :).


Keep in mind just because a horse is not approved by a WB registry because of that group's rules, or if a stallion hasn't competed at a high level of sport does NOT mean you would be giving up "ability or temperment" if you bred to that stallion.

What it means is that you are giving up a stallion owner who did not always have the $$$ to campaign their stallion to that degree.

It has always been my opinion that the ability of the average horse far exceeds the ability of the average rider/owner, so most horses are capable of going farther than their riders/owners.

I own a dilute stallion of an "off" breed (Akhal Teke), a breed that has a history of success in "sport horse" disciplines, but isn't generally accepted into WB registries. I know of only one Teke stallion that is approved by a WB registry.

I do not have the resources to send him out to train, and I am unable to show/train him myself. Luckily, so far mare owners have been recognizing his basic athletic ability when he moves & free jumps. His foals were proving his disposition, but after a rather rocky start between he & I (I do all his handling) because he was so spoiled his first 2 years, he has proven to ME that his temperament is very good for his breed.

While it's nice to see the stallion himself can do it, performance doesn't mean the stallion will be a good producer. More important is to look at the performance of the foals.

[Delkredere]

Editted to note that the owner has taken down the photoshopped pic which was originally on the site and points out that it was just a joke to make her stallion look like he was showing piaffe under dressage tack. She didn't mean to misrepresent him or mislead anyone into thinking he was really showing dressage at that level.

You are way out of line with this comment. The photo had a statement clarifying it. You are twisting words in attempts to make me look like a liar. I did not misrepresent anyone, or mislead anyone. I never said anywhere he ever showed at that level. There is nothing on my site misleading his level of current showing or training. I have no reasons, or interests to “pad” up his accomplishments. I am proud enough of him an what he has done, in spite of me holding him back.


That’s really all we, as potential customers, can ask, isn't it? When I saw that photo originally, while looking at your stallion, I saw no note at all that it was a joke of any kind. I, and perhaps others as you seem to state, saw it recognized it as 'shopped and were turned off.

The note was there TO ensure no confusion over it. All I can suggest is perhaps next time you should read through the page to get all info and captions on a stallion. There might be info there to clarify photos such as this. Some of the world does try to have a sense of humor in this mostly cruel world. I get turned off as well when people do not read through and ask about something that is posted on my site.

So, I suppose being turned off works both ways. Your copyright infringement turned me off. At least with my actions, I came forward, and explained myself and apologized for any misunderstanding. You one the other hand, simply avoid my direct questioning on the subject. This is very disrespectful, and not appreciated.

Glad you won't do that anymore, as it really isn't in your best interests.
LOL, this amused me. This was corrected long ago. Do you feel better having a hand in "policing" me? LOL

I'll take the link down, if you'd like, but the fact remains that you DID 'shop a pic on your site that misrepresented your horse. No need to get mad at me. You put it up there and it sounds like you only took it down when others gave you a hard time?

Taking the link down is not because I would "like" it taken down. Please don't try to redirect things away from the fact that YOU used a photo without permission.

The fact also remains there was a statement about the photo accompanying it as well. Just a point you choose to leave out in attempts to make things look misleading, when I clarified things at the time the photo was placed on my website from the get go.

I am not mad at you at all, but I refuse to let you twist the truth for defamatory reasons. I am not going to allow such behavior from anyone.

No one gave me a hard time about the photo. The problems arose on a "bash" board where people twist and contort things to make others look bad. People said I could not produce the photo in the original form, which I did, and had no problem in doing.

As for his "piaffe" training- Yes, he does school piaffe at home. Some people may be "shocked" a horse like him could be schooling such movements. Outside of a photo for proof, I can only offer to come see him in person anytime.

[SilverSpringFarm]

THat's really all we, as potential customers, can ask, isn't it? When I saw that photo originally, while looking at your stallion, I saw no note at all that it was a joke of any kind. I, and perhaps others as you seem to state, saw it recognized it as 'shopped and were turned off.

Glad you won't do that anymore, as it really isn't in your best interests.

I'll take the link down, if you'd like, but the fact remains that you DID 'shop a pic on your site that misrepresented your horse. No need to get mad at me. You put it up there and it sounds like you only took it down when others gave you a hard time?

NJR

Wow, I just wanted to let you know that you are coming off as a HUGE troll with your silly attempts at muckraking. If you don't care for Golden Venture or her stallion then don't do business with her. Don't go dragging up a JOKE photo that isn't even on her website anymore. You just come off as someone that is really desperate to drum up some drama.

If you have something personal against Golden Venture then you should send her a PM about it. That way you don't make yourself look like a petty fool on a public website.

[foxhavenfarm]

Wow, I just wanted to let you know that you are coming off as a HUGE troll with your silly attempts at muckraking.

Unfortunately, there are far too many trolls on this board. It's quite disgusting actually. Unless an OPINION is being asked for, people should really refer to the old addage "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

[Nojacketrequired]

As you can see from all my other posts, I'm just a HUGE troll all the time!

Go crazy folks.

I actually like the stallion, and I'm glad she took it down as I'm sure I wasn't the only one that thought it was suspect at the time.

As for copyright? I didn't get it from your site, and have no intention of argueing with you about it, as people put pics of stallions up here all the time.

Perhaps I'll start a thread that asks..."If you saw an obviously photo-shopped pic on a stallions website, how would that effect your decision?"

Nah...I just don't care that much.

NJR

[grayarabpony]

Then why don't you shut up and/or go away? :) AR too.

[DuffyAgain]

I guess what I was kind of trying to say earlier is that some of the "off" colored stallions I've seen would NOT be intact if they were a "normal" color. They are kept stallions because of their color - not because of their quality.

But, I guess if there continue to be buyers, then go on with it! :winkgrin:

[3Dogs]

Huzzah Duffy two:

There are posts on breeding that talk/pose all kinds of questions re stallions, offspring etc. But then, there are the particular questions from what I presume are color enthusiasts, and breeders, that puts the "color" issue in the title of every thread. For example: titles of "dilute x, or "colored perfomers y" or " first cremello z" - thus, it appears that COLOR is the dominant issue -

Then we get the rebuttals that it isn't "about color". Well then why put "color" in the title of each and every thread? If breeders want credibilty in the PERFORMANCE category, then color is moot.

Face it, there are breeders, and huzzah to them, who have found a niche, and that niche is that there are buyers who want nothing but the COLOR. Great - I endorse enterprise.

Where it all gets a bit squirmy is that those who breed exclusively for color, which may be lucrative, then protest they are breeding for perfomance sporthorses. Well - some may be doing that - but I don't find the stats to support. The only one I find is HTF - great - but the color of him is not the reason he is successful.

So either you breed for color because there are buyers who love "color" or you breed great prospective sporthorses, and some of them may, or all of them may, be "colored".

[RiddleMeThis]

Then we get the rebuttals that it isn't "about color". Well then why put "color" in the title of each and every thread?
Because that IS the odd thing about them. You cant tell me that if a cremello horse went to the Olympics NO ONE would be saying a word about its color.

Just because a breeder who happens to breed for color as well as everything is EXCITED when a certain color comes out does not mean that they are breeding just for color.

And personally it IS notable when there is a first ANYTHING. Whether its the first stallion to win X, X, and X or its the first horse to be born with X color or X pattern.

[grayarabpony]

About 10 years ago I remember seeing a pinto showjumper at the Duke Children's Classic, in the Grand Prix class. He would have been a beautiful horse even if he hadn't been pinto, but he was really a standout with the color.

[JB]

I guess what I was kind of trying to say earlier is that some of the "off" colored stallions I've seen would NOT be intact if they were a "normal" color. They are kept stallions because of their color - not because of their quality.

But, I guess if there continue to be buyers, then go on with it! :winkgrin:

And there are horses out there breeding purely based on having a famous sire/dam/grandsire/granddam when their conformation and/or temperament should have dictated that they be de-fuzzy plum'd.

There are horses who are black and homozygous black who are breeding stock for that reason alone. Same with homozgyous Tobis and cremellos and even single dilutes. But there are plenty of normal colored horses who are also breeding for really bad reasons.

[MistyBlue]

Double post...woops

[MistyBlue]

True, many horses are left intact for the purpose of passing along a certain color or because there's a "famous" name in the pedigree.

However, it doesn't excuse one type of breeder over another from doing the same thing.

There also seems to be some with unpapered, unproven badly conformed mares doing the same. Used as broodmares simply because they're cremello and will make colored foals.

But then as someone said, if there's a market for them....:winkgrin:

I like buckskins...always enjoyed the looks of that color. Ever try to find a good one? Next to impossible. Even young stock...tons to find. Haven't found many yet that had proven parents or conformation decent enough to take a chance on.

[vineyridge]

If it were me, and I were looking for a buckskin, I'd head straight to Connemara World and look there. The color is so common that it's not a factor in breeding that I know of.

At least, unless the Connemara color is actually dun and not buckskin. But to tell the honest truth, I can't tell them apart half the time.

[MistyBlue]

That's not a bad idea viney if I ever shop color. Dun or buckskin, dorsal stripe or not, both are attractive. And Connemaras are cool horses/ponies.
Not my first choice of breed but I wouldn't ever turn down a nice one. And does fit my criteria of not tall, agile/speedy and athletic. :D

[Mythology]

There are A LOT of horses that shouldn't be bred. Though this is an issue with dilute stallions, however I think it's more of an issue with mares of every color.
It's almost like every owner of a mare seems to think that because she has a uterus she should be bred because babies are so cute. I can't tell you how many fugly quarter/draft/tb/twh crosses there are floating out there because some lady got a free, crazy, tb mare off the track that is too insane to be ridden- So what do they do but BREED HER???!!! Why because she can be bred and there's a very nice irish draft type stallion the neighbor owns and since he's not able to be registered she'll get the breeding for cheap and she can just throw the mare in with him for a couple months and 11 months later a baby pops out in the field somewhere. Then the foal gets called an American Warmblood, has no handling and/or poor handling untill it's three and time to be started by same owner who hasen't ridden in 25 years but is just sure she can start this colt, who hasen't been gelded because he's just so perfect and if he could just be registered then he would be a world class international eventer. Oh except he has crooked front legs that his sire had too but is's not genetic just a freak of nature and at one point when she has the money she'll get them fixed but not untill she has a few test breedings with him to her mares and the mares down the street just perpetuating the horrible cycle. BTW All this happens after she gets out of the hospital from being thrown into a tractor by said colt and breaking almost every bone in her body, but it's not his fault cause after he threw her he stood over the top of her crumpled body and looked so sorry...
NO JOKE I actually know this person by the way... :no:

[SilverBalls]

I will always have a soft spot in my heart for a palomino.... what can I say. I used to think Gold Apollo was the ultimate and wished for a horse just like him... I like a buckskin too. I guess I watched Brokeback Mountain too much.:lol:

Bottom line, if someone wants a horse of a different color ( or not ) pick a stallion. Personally, I would love a 17 hand version of Gold Tycoon. Unfortunately I am "full figured" and his 15.3 frame is too small. I guess I sold Zarrbuck too soon... he's 16.2 and still growing. I didn't have faith! :winkgrin: As Duffy said... if they are correct, move good, jump good... that's great! For me a palomino or buckskin is just icing on the cake.

Breeders are breeders... no matter what their programs are. Those who breed horses of a different color are easy pickin's because the threads get as colorful as the horses.

What better way to pass a summer's day.... :winkgrin:

[Nojacketrequired]

Then why don't you shut up and/or go away?:) AR too.

Nice placement of a smiley face!

I won't shut up or go away, as you so happily requested, as I am a mare owner and have an interest in this thread.

NJR

[Mythology]

Breeders are breeders... no matter what their programs are. Those who breed horses of a different color are easy pickin's because the threads get as colorful as the horses.

What better way to pass a summer's day.... :winkgrin:

I know I love coming on COTH when I'm sick at home, or injured (as those who know me can attest to my having two left feet).
You can always find a thread or 2 on COTH with everyone getting all up in arms over something!!!
Usually an opinion- and you know opinions are like a**holes-everyone's got one, or more than one is some cases!!! :lol:
:lol::lol:

[Mythology]

I love the people who go on every thread and post rude/outlandish things just to get everyone going- then dissappear *poof*! They really make life interesting :D
What fun!

[Nootka]

I guess what I was kind of trying to say earlier is that some of the "off" colored stallions I've seen would NOT be intact if they were a "normal" color. They are kept stallions because of their color - not because of their quality.

But, I guess if there continue to be buyers, then go on with it! :winkgrin:

I have seen many normal (bay, black, chestnut...)stallions left intact also. What is the point? There are a lot of stallions that should be cut and arn't. Not just colored ones.

[TrueColours]

I think in the end, unless someone has oodles of money to support their horsey habit and they truly dont require certain revenues to keep the whole operation rolling, they will opt to keep a colt entire to a) breed to their mare and/or b) stand to outside mares if:

a) they think its a pretty colour and others will too
b) they think its markings are cool and others will too
c) they think their bloodlines are fabulous and others will too
d) they feel they are attractive movers/jumpers/etc and others will too
e) they feel they are rare and desirable and others will too
f) they feel there is nothing else out there like them and others will too

and on and on it goes ...

At some point in time, the bubble has to burst, the SO has to run out of money and dreams (unless they are independantly well off) and they have to face reality that no one has the remotest interest in Fluffy the stallion at all

No - its not limited to dilutes or spotted TB's. Not at all. Plain bays and chestnuts, WB's and TB's, have the same false dreams attached to them if they are by some fabulous stallion and the SO feels that is enough to have people marching to their door in droves wanting to breed to him

[Nootka]

100% agreed TC:yes:

[grayarabpony]

Nice placement of a smiley face!

I won't shut up or go away, as you so happily requested, as I am a mare owner and have an interest in this thread.

NJR

No you don't, you're just a troll having withdrawl from the now-defunct Litter Box.

[JWB]

Thats interesting and has anyone actually TRIED to get a dilute approved???

The lady I spoke with in the AHS absolutely totally disagrees that this is a policy or a bias within the Registry and I guess we will find out when my buckskin TB mare is presented in August

According to her, if the mare is a quality mare and has the movement and is of the type they are looking for, they will approve her the same as they would a plain bay TB mare ...

I guess we will wait and see what happens :)

If you read the AHHA rule book, it specifically excludes dilutes and horses with pinto (a spot larger than a dinner plate) or appaloosa markings.

[Kinsella]

Did Chamois get approved AHS? Or is she doing the later approval in October?

[RiddleMeThis]

Did Chamois get approved AHS? Or is she doing the later approval in October?
Shes going to the October approval.

[RiddleMeThis]

If you read the AHHA rule book, it specifically excludes dilutes and horses with pinto (a spot larger than a dinner plate) or appaloosa markings.
I'm looking at the AHHA rulebook, and the only thing I can find that could possibly relate to not accepting dilutes is this "The AHHA Breeding and Registration Committee will determine acceptance in cases of questionable coloring and/or markings." It doesn't say anything specifically about dilutes anywhere, unless this http://www.holsteiner.com/BreedingRules/2009%20Breeders%20Rules.pdf doesn't use the words Cream, Dilute, Palomino or Buckskin, to describe not accepting dilutes, and has it in a different place than when talking about preferred colors, and unacceptable markings.