Open show disappointment

[mishmash]

A couple friends and I decided to participate in a local open show-it was for a therapeutic riding center, and we felt it would be fun and for a good cause. I ended up not riding in it because of a sprained ankle, but did volunteer, as I am a volunteer for the center.
The judge was an APHA judge, and a variety of English, therapeutic, Western, and halter classes were offered. We are all dressage riders at heart, but dabble in other things-jumping, trail riding, cowboy challenges, etc.
What was so disappointing is the way the English classes were judged. The horses that placed were ridden on a loose rein, the gaits were slooowwww, heads were carried low. The few riders that rode their horses in a more upright frame did not place at all. One gal that placed could not get her horse to canter, yet she was one of the low headed ones.
It wasn't that my friends did not get a ribbon-it was that the classes were advertised as English pleasure, but the horses that won were actually Western horses, with Western style gaits in English tack. To me, this is not an "English Pleasure" class. I have a saddleseat Morgan. I could put him in a Western saddle, enter him in a Western pleasure class, but that would not make him a Western pleasure horse!
Is this typical of the local, open shows? We were planning on doing another one this summer, but may not, as it was a little frustrating, knowing that the playing field isn't even.
And what is your definition of an English Pleasure horse??

[Laurierace]

Most two discipline shows are like that unless they have more than one judge. They either have a western judge or an english judge who attempts to muddle through the other discipline. Its good for experience for a young horse or young rider but not a good measure of where you may stack up against your peers. There is one show here in town that is so bad that we just pulled right back out the driveway if we got there and the judge for that day was wearing a cowboy hat.

[cllane1]

IMO, and in my area, "open" show=QH or stock breed show (and I mean nothing disparaging about these breeds). If you're looking to take a green horse for a good experience, they're fine, but if you are looking for true judging on the ideals of whatever class you're in, don't go.

[My Two Cents]

We know exactly what you're talking about. We also live in the midwest and find English classes in open shows to be western horses in English tack. Another challange is to show up with an Arabian.

[Reynard Ridge]

The heart of the issue is that regardless of how the show was advertised, it is a local, fun show being run and judged in the style that the organizers chose - and, one assumes, not run under any national governing body rules.

Your best bet if you are interested in these sorts of local shows is to to audit one before you show. If you appreciate the judging and are happy with how it is run, etc, go to the next one. If not, take a pass.

I can see why you might have certain "expectations," based on prior experience or knowledge, but unless you are participating in something that is being run under specific, set rules (for example, a dressage schooling show put on by a local GMO that is clear that rules are under the umbrella of whichever governing body currently administers national dressage rules), then you need to understand that local, fun stuff can and will be run any which way but loose. :yes:

[MistyBlue]

With open shows here in CT we have to check who's judging to see how it will be judged. Many times it is a stock breed judge and then only stock horses or styles win.
But we do have some schooling shows, fair shows, etc that have open classes with really well rounded judges and I've seen many that had saddleseat, western, english, you name it in classes and the best of each style wins. Now it can't be easy to judge an open pleasure class that has all those disciplines in it and know enough about each type to place the class well overall. Kudos to those judges!

[Cielo Azure]

Having just been show chair, I know the difficulty in finding judges that know a variety of disciplines.

Might I suggest that you contact the show chair and gently, politely share your thoughts on the judge or even what you would like to see in a judge next time. Ask if there is any way that she could get a judge that is qualified using USEF rules and not an AQHA judge next time.

North Carolina State maintains a list of judges that have gone through their program and I know other places must also. Does USEF maintain a judge's list?

Show chair's do appreciate feedback as long as it is constructive and not nasty.

[greysandbays]

USEF is not the be all, end all of judging certifications.

Most of the stock breeds have their own associations, certify their own judges, and have the right to have whatever the hell standards they want for their classes. Many saddle club associations also have their own judge certification programs.

So a lot of these "open" shows aren't just pulling yahoos with cowboy hats off the street to judge.

If you want to pick nits, "English Pleasure" would be nothing more than dressing the horse up in English equipment, donning an English costume, and enjoying your ride. What USEF considers "English Pleasure" would by some association standards be considered "runaway broncs".

Neither standard is inherently right or inherently wrong. If one or the other doesn't suit your fancy, then pick shows that adhere to your preferred standard and either leave the others alone or find whatever schooling/charity support/social aspects you can benefit from and appreciate that opportunity for what it is instead of whining about what it isn't.

[spurgirl]

It makes me smile to read this post, I got to thinking of an open "fun" show I went to about 15 years ago now...The judge was old...I mean, like 90 some years old, had a cane, coke bottle glasses, literally was tottering around. There was this nice young man "helping" him, as show steward. In our division (about 10 horses), he kept pinning first a lovely grey TB type gelding-very green, very young, who kept spooking, breaking gaits, generally being a jerk, etc., who never should have pinned. Plainly a first show experience for him...I'm sure he ended up being a wonderful hunter when he settled down. Funny thing, he belonged to the ring steward's barn;). It got quite a bit worse, though. The young girl who was using my guy for the walk-trot had a class where the first or second place winner pinned was not even IN the class!! Management was a bit embarrassed:o That little girl was from the steward's barn, too:mad: When our classes were over, me and my two "new friends"-a couple of other entrants who were pretty p*ssed, went over and demanded our money back. It was refunded pretty quickly!

[mypaintwattie]

As someone who shows alot at local open shows, I can tell you that you never know what kind of judge you are going to get. That's part of the fun of open shows- competing against other horses of different breeds. I can find myself in a halter or riding class competing against everything from minis to drafts, with the occasional mule thrown in. The show series that I do has halter, riding, and driving classes, and gets mostly driving judges who judge everything for the day because the club focus is more on driving. I chalk it up to a cheap fun experience, and when I earn a blue, it is even nicer!

[mishmash]

Well, I guess I didn't see it as whining! Just a question whether this was the norm. I do plan on giving the center some feedback-she asked for it and there were positive things. I also am considering telling her I would sponsor the cost for an "English" judge. I guess it all depends on what they want to do. Do they want to just attract the people who usually go to open shows-or do they want to try and get some of the ones who have not participated in the past involved? I have done some research on judges in the area, and there are at least two, who hold actual judging certificates in multi disciplines, and are not just one breed judges.
Not trying to condemn the Western riders at all, or their standards. Guess I just saw English riding as being judged by saddleseat/hunt seat/dressage standards. If this is not the case at open shows, fine-different strokes for different folks (and scooby-dooby-dooby...). Will just not participate in the future-I like a level playing field (or as level as you can get riding a Percheron!)

[Renae]

Most of the stock breeds have their own associations, certify their own judges, and have the right to have whatever the hell standards they want for their classes.

And most of these judges know nothing about saddle seat and if shown a national level Arabian or Morgan hunter pleasure horse would still pin it below the local level stock horses in hunt tack.

To the OP learn who in your area knows the local judging pool so you can ask them and only show under judges that have demonstrated a knowledge for a variety of breeds and the ability to be able to place a class of mixed breeds/types fairly. The stock horse judges seem to have the hardest time doing this.

[War Admiral]

Well, the thing is, Mishmash, if it's an APHA judge, then what you saw getting pinned in the Eng. Pleasure actually IS the breed standard.

Some of the western breed associations have a rather unique take on Saddle Seat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnGTPmwAewU) as well.

So, just get to know your judges and which breed association each is affiliated with. That way you know in advance what the standard is going to be, and can either opt to play along - or not.

[mishmash]

Some of the western breed associations have a rather unique take on Saddle Seat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnGTPmwAewU) as well.

Oh My.....:eek::eek::eek:

As a gal who grew up riding American Saddlebreds-this was hard to watch. A nice rider-but that is not the saddleseat I learned!

[greysandbays]

And most of these judges know nothing about saddle seat and if shown a national level Arabian or Morgan hunter pleasure horse would still pin it below the local level stock horses in hunt tack.

Well, that would be the "runaway bronc" factor I mentioned. And don't be too quick to diss some of the "local level stock horses" either. Around here, a lot of them have been to Congress or World at some point in their lives. Some of them have even pinned there.

To the OP learn who in your area knows the local judging pool so you can ask them and only show under judges that have demonstrated a knowledge for a variety of breeds and the ability to be able to place a class of mixed breeds/types fairly. The stock horse judges seem to have the hardest time doing this.

There are dumbass judges in every discipline who bring their ignorance, bias, and just plain stupid to judging disciplines other than their own.

I don't think it's that stock horse judges seem to have the hardest time placing a class of mixed breeds/types fairly. I think it just that there is so much homogenization accross the stock breeds that any deviation from that seems like a big deal. In the pleasure/saddle type breeds, there is so much variety between breeds that a judge's foolishness has more places to hide.

[Burbank]

Wow!!!! That saddleseat class was funny, well trained horse but not saddleseat.

As far as open shows go it can be hit or miss, many open judges are of stock horse background but a nice horse is a nice horse and should do well. It can be hard when you have several breeds and styles of english riding to find which one is most like the breed standard.

I have a half-arab and went to an open show over the weekend, we ended up scratching but not due to the judging, due to me not warming him up properly and him letting me know. But in one of our classes we did place 3rd out of 5 b/c he is cute and flashy but he is very much arab type in how he goes. And this was a very small local saddle club. At the open show before that we were lapping the ring and still placed first and there were quite a few stock horses in there.

Remember the name of the judge and only show under them for schooling, not for really competing. Most show series mix up who they use to judge so they may not use them next time.

And for all the cowboy hat comments, just because they are wearing a cowboy hat doesn't mean they can't judge something other than stock breeds, those hats are very useful for standing all day in the sun.

[Renae]

Well, that would be the "runaway bronc" factor I mentioned.

Well those judges the dismiss the saddle seat horse or light breed hunter pleasure horse as a "runaway bronc" because it is upheaded, show with rein contact and forward (as is proper for their breed divisions) are the ones that are showing themselves to be the blind fools that only know how to cookie cutter judge one type of horse, not access the quality of each animal on an individual basis and place the class accordingly irregarless to personal preferances.

All in all if you don't have a stock horse for the most part don't go to so called "open shows" being judged by stock horses judges. They have no intention of giving you a fair shake, although they are happy to take your entry fees. Find shows that will hire judges knowledgeable in all the breeds and disciplines being shown to them and patronize them :)

[greysandbays]

I know at least one "stock breed judge" (maybe two if one of them is still alive) who also judges open shows that I'd be happy to show my Arabs to any time.

And there's at least a couple of "non-stock breed" judges who judge open shows that I wouldn't even cross the street to show my good horses to. OTOH, the young greenie who might well flatten them in the mud shall have his chance....

I know from personal experience that it the clubs sponsoring the shows aren't ALWAYS the ones to blame for inept judges whith blatant breed bias. If the committee "knows the judge too well", it creates the perception of that club members might be favored for the ribbons. If the committee doesn't know the judge at all, there's a chance of getting a dud. My club strives to get well-rounded judges, but since we try not to use the same judges too many times in too short a time span, we sometimes we get burned giving an unknown a chance.

[Across Sicily]

Hoo boy - try having a Morgan hunter pleasure horse (who has won at the National/World level) and showing him at an Open show. "Shouldn't he be a saddle seat horse?!" "No..." "Why does he pick up his legs so high then! And his neck is so high too!" ....that doesn't make him a saddle seat horse.

My barn (which is a big Morgan training barn very well known for its saddleseat, driving, and hunter horses) does a couple of Open shows every year for the Academy kids and whoever wants to tune up a little bit before entering the ring at the A shows. We had one about a month ago that I took my hunter gelding to. He was a very good boy - a little fast, but was soft in the bridle and smooth in his gaits. He is a very elegant looking MORGAN (key word there) hunter. There were 6 in my class and the judge placed us last. I couldn't figure out why until she came up to me when I was paying my show fees and said "You have a beautiful horse but he is just not ever going to be a hunter. He has far too much leg motion and he's much too hot!" I kind of looked at her and smiled and nodded, and she continued on a bit about how pretty he was but how he just wasn't a hunter, etc etc, until I had had enough and went "Yes... well he was a National Champion and World Reserve Champion last year... so I think he's in the right division." Cue some sputtering and scowling. (Funny thing was - she really liked him in the "Hunter Type In Hand" class and placed him 2nd out of like 15 or 16... so whatever.)

Take it all with a grain of salt and show open for the experience of showing - that's what we did. I rolled my eyes and patted my pony for a job well done, even if we didn't get rewarded for it.

[nightsong]

then you need to understand that local, fun stuff can and will be run any which way but loose. :yes:

Actually, it looks like "loose" is a viable option ;)...

[FlightCheck]

Ah, yes, open shows.

About 10yrs ago I took a Very Green OTTB to 2 Open Shows in my area. Two different venues, two different judges.

He won EVERYTHING - the halter classes where he was spinning like a top, the under saddle classes where he blew leads, the jumping classes where he overjumped by MILES.
It was embarrassing - he was such a beautiful horse that the local, non-affiliated judges kept placing him first, no matter that he didn't deserve it.

I tried to give the ribbons back and show with my number upside down, but both shows had a "you enter, you get judged and ribboned" attitude.

[War Admiral]

Hoo boy - try having a Morgan hunter pleasure horse (who has won at the National/World level) and showing him at an Open show. "Shouldn't he be a saddle seat horse?!" "No..." "Why does he pick up his legs so high then! And his neck is so high too!" ....that doesn't make him a saddle seat horse.

Well, realistically, though, the Morgan/ASB/Arab breed standard for "hunters" looks just as funny to real H/J peeps as the peanut-pushing, jogging "Wenglish Pleasure" Quarter Horses do. I say this as the owner of an ASB "hunter" in training and someone who is never going to use the 2 words in the same sentence without quotes around it. ;) :lol:

[rabicon]

Haven't read others but in my experience at local multi disc. shows they want a western pleasure horse in an english saddle. Good luck if you don't have this because they won't place you. I have a morganxapp. and I use to go to one of these shows for fun. It was cheap and the people were nice and it was experience for my green horse. Well he never placed well againist the western oops I me english pleasure horses. We would pass them :lol: because we actually trotted and cantered not jogged and loped or troped. Anyways my guy does have knee action (we are dressage and c/t riders) and I had one of the good ole boy judges tell me one day my horse would be better in a HUNTER UNDER SADDLE class and would clean up :lol::lol: I don't know what hus class he's been watching but the ones I know don't clean up if they have knees flying high :lol: It really showed me how much the judges at these shows really knew about the english world.

ETA: I have also been told by one of the judges that what they want to see in an English pleasure class is a horse on a loose rein that looks like an easy horse and a pleasure to ride. So hence the western pleasure type. They do look like they would be easy and smooth to ride and thats what they want to see.

[cowgirljenn]

I think it is the norm in a lot of areas. Stock-type 'english pleasure' horses look like western horses in english tack to me, too.

When we lived in MI, we showed at two different open show circuits. The first year was very good experience for my very green little hunter pleasure Arab. He competed against all stock horses. At one circuit, he never placed well (sometimes he didn't deserve to, sometimes he did :)). At the other circuit, he was placed pretty fairly. So the second year, we only showed the one circuit where I liked the judging.

The thing to remember is .... when you are showing, you are paying for ONE person's opinion. If he/she is a stock horse person, they're probably going to like and place stock horses better. NOW, my Arabs at times have placed well with stock-type judges. It depends on the judge. If he's a saddle horse type person, he's probably going to place those types better.

When I was showing, I kept a list of judges I liked and didn't like. I was at one show, showing my WP horse (who had a top 10 at Arab youth nationals to his name and several regional championships as well). He was going well, looking nice and making me proud. The judge actually turned his back and refused to watch us - turns out for whatever reason he hates Arabs (confirmed by a bunch of people). I had some of the stock horse people getting pissed off that we weren't placing. I wasn't happy to spend my money and not get judged - so I put that judge's name at the top of my 'never to show in front of again' list and moved on.

[RacetrackReject]

One time I was the photographer at a local open type show that awarded PAC-10 points. The judge was an AQHA/ APHA judge. During the english classes he said "I don't really have experience judging these classes. Does this look right?" and then he showed me his order of placing. I just looked at him, stunned, then said "move the big bay horse up in front of X horse". He asked why and I said because X horse cantered around on the wrong lead the whole time.

[tmo0hul]

We have one of these every 4 weeks about 5 minutes from my house. I've never showed in it for all the above reasons already mentioned. We went this past weekend to watch some friends show. First class was english halter. A horse who was very crooked (but pretty) won. Half of that class changed halters and went straight back in for the western halter class.... After I saw that I threatened to bring my 17h WB mare to the next show in a western halter. :lol:

Also watched the wester pleasure class. Person who placed 2nd actually trotted most of the time when lope was called. Whatever.

I'm way too competitive to show at that kind of a venue. I'd get to ticked about not placing over horses who are thin, participants showing in english classes with western show shirts and western hats, etc. I'd rather just sit on the sidelines and cheer on my friends who are willing to do it for fun.

[Iron Horse Farm]

DH and I recently went to a local fairgrounds to watch a friend's kid doing motoross. At the same venue was a stock show so we wandered over. DH was SHOCKED. He had never been to anything but H/J shows and dressage shows. He asked questions that made my eyes water.....why are they going soooo slow? Is something wrong with them? Why are their heads sooo low? When the "English" class came out :eek::eek::eek:. There was absolutely NO change in anything anything except tack. Heads were still on the ground, horses were still so slow that they were nearly walking.

[Sandy M]

Oh, that's routine for that type of show - say like a C.S.H.A.- recognized show - here in California. If the judge wears a cowboy hat - beware. Riding correct hunt seat or saddle seat is unlikely to get you any recognitiion. Peanut rollers are the rule, despite AQHA's supposed rule changes in that regard.

However, you can't judge a book by it's cover all the time. I stewarded for my local Appy club's local show (and they usually do hire the aforementioned peanut-roller-loving judges). Judge was middle aged lady, short gray hair, big cowboy hat, tailored western jacket, cowboy boots. I sighed inwardly, but when we started the show, one of the local breed trainers came jogging into the English Pleasure class, big fancy horse, head down at its knees, etc., etc., so sure she was going to kick butt. As she troped by the judge, the judge muttered under her breath, "I HATE that..." and proceeded to place the class correctly by true English Pleasure NON-stock horse standards. The big-time trainer was 5th out of 6 because one other horse had a rodeo moment. Ms. Big Time consistently placed low in her classes, and after about 3 classes, loaded her horse in the trailer and left, breathing fire. Most of the other competitiors were quite happy......

[GrayTbred]

This is so relatable. I showed my first horse, a TB, at small, local open shows in the so-called English Pleasure classes. We'd WTC the "proper" way, alone in a group of WPs in English drag. And I mean drag in every sense of the word: nose in the dirt, four-beat "canter," etc.

It was inevitable: If the judge wore a cowboy hat, we would not place. (If she wore a baseball cap ala HJ folks, we stood a better chance, LOL).

One of the best compliments I ever got was from a stranger who had watched us end up out of the ribbons, saying I was "robbed."

[Tiffany01]

The horses that placed were ridden on a loose rein, the gaits were slooowwww, heads were carried low.

Thats the way shows here are judged and I got 2nd out of 9 in hus for doing that.

[costco_muffins]

Hey, I know exactly what you are talking about. Took Mare to a local open show for the experience. We were beaten in a WTC hunt seat equitation class by a horse wearing a western saddle. Mare was not perfect (had her ears pinned and was making dinosaur faces at the paint horse there) and I am sure that I was not perfect, but at least we were in an appropriate class. In this class the horse in the western tack won, followed by 4-beating 4H kids, followed by lame horses, followed by us. Apparently newly off-the-track TBs are not the thing to bring to that show...

[2DogsFarm]

You need to take any Open/Fun/Schooling Show judging with a HUGE spoonful of salt.

Aaah...the memories:

I remember scribing for a schooling H/J & dressage show judged by a former winner of the Maclay Medals.
This was in the late 80s, well before dressage had become as popular as it is now.
When the dressage tests started, he leaned over and asked me (sotto voce) "What am I supposed to be looking for?"

Just for grins, my DH & I entered an Arab/Half-Arab open show.
We went with a group from the stable we boarded at, mostly WP 4H kids. Our showing background was H/J at this time.
One class was an English Pleasure class - mixed ages from youth to {ahem} us seniors.
The judge called for a hand gallop. Most just did their little WP lope, perhaps a skosh faster, but we honestly asked for & got the Real Deal. Needless to say we were lapping most of the class. Some of the entries looked a bit out of control, but no call for a gait change from the judge, so.....
First lap a kid comes off, class stops, kid remounts, off we go.
Judge asks for hand gallop again.
2nd kid comes off.
Class stops...wash,rinse,repeat
The 3rd time judge called hand gallop, I cantered up next to DH and whispered "Don't do it!"

[BuddyRoo]

I've done Open and "Fun" Shows in IA and TX predominantly and have attended ones here in MI. In my experience, they are typically "stock breed" type shows and use AQHA or APHA judges. They typically use the AQHA rulebook for their organization too.

As such, the English Pleasure class at these levels is more of a WP class with English tack and is judged as such.

I'm sure it varies from area to area some....but that's what I've encountered. To be honest, it makes sense to me because the majority of the people who are going to these shows own stock breeds or crosses. You either do breed shows or you do the open circuits. For H/J and dressage, we have very specific competitions and they are judged accordingly--and if someone shows up with their stock breed to do the test or the course, they're going to be judged by those standards.

The one downside of the open shows to me is that each breed organization has slightly different styles...I guess you'd kind of have to be like a dog show judge and know the breed standard across the board to do a good job judging. Else, you have to pick one set of rules and judge everyone to that standard. I wouldn't want that job!

(and as a sidenote: do your open shows PLACE lead line classes? Eek! How does one judge THAT? Never seen them place kids before I got here to MI)

[greysandbays]

(and as a sidenote: do your open shows PLACE lead line classes? Eek! How does one judge THAT? Never seen them place kids before I got here to MI)

Our club has done leadline both with placings and without. If our overworked show crew thinks of it, we ask the judge if they want to do a "tie for first" (judge usually says yes), or sometimes the judge will ask what we want to do.

We keep some special ribbons we keep laying around that we use as "honorable mention" in little kid classes that have 7 entries and we only give 6 ribbons and these get called into service for leadline when that happens. But sometimes, the day flies by, nobody thinks to mention it, and the judge proceeds to place the leadline class

[smay]

haha. My daughter has been showing in hunters for years now locally, and sure - in all the undersaddle classes, you have to have a stock breed traveling in a western frame, to ribbon. You just do. We acknowledge it! Bleah. Her large pony is a MorganX that jumps the moon and never misses a flying lead change, so we just go in all the jumping classes and clean up. You will NEVER see the stock-type HUS horses jumping over jumps. !!! haha

[Lostboy]

I haven't shown in an open show in a long time..if I were to go to one I would check the association experience of the judge so I would have an idea about what they are likely looking for however I know how I want my own horses to go and I just get what I want done for myself.
I do judge at open shows.. and from what I am reading I guess they are darn lucky to get me..I have shown in 'A" H/J circuit, most of the major breeds,western, reining, saddleseat, driving etc. so pretty much been there done that....what this means at my shows is... I expect YOU to preform to your own standard (for your horse type). If the shakeytail has the best pleasure trip.. its the winner even tho I people are thinking I am more of a H/J/dressage person.. I recognize people riding Wenglish and they better not get behind the bit, peanut roll or jog in my hunter under saddle class. You TB/WB can be the most fab mover but if its head is all over the place or its inconsistant its not winning the HUS either. I can go on but I think you can understand what I am saying..


btw.. smaller show.. sunny day = cowboy hat

bigger show, no hat since they usually have shade

[greysandbays]

I do judge at open shows.. I expect YOU to preform to your own standard (for your horse type).

Our club specifically states to judges in our confirmation letter that we expect horses to perform and be judged to their breed standard. We make it clear that our shows will have a variety of breeds, which gives the judge a chance to bone up on what they are unfamiliar with.

I get impression that some clubs (intentionally or not) give off an "aura of expectation" as to which breeds (or even which exhibitors) they want favored, and the judge (who would like to be asked back because the pay's often pretty good) often obliges.

[Saidapal]

You need to take any Open/Fun/Schooling Show judging with a HUGE spoonful of salt.

Agree absolutely. Open shows are usually put on by local clubs and local barns who hire the best judge they can who is either a member of their club or who they can get for as little money as possible so it doesn't eat into their profits. Now please, I'm not saying these judges are bad, but as a rule they are either inexperienced or only normally judge one breed. I used to enjoy going because me and my horse got to get all dressed up and go out and strut out stuff. For a little amount of money I could have a great deal of fun.

So, what I would do was keep a little mental notebook of the judges who liked my horse and who I thought gave me a fair shot. If they consistently placed my little arab behind all the paints, appaloosas, palominos and other obviously western types we just didn't go back. I was paying for that judges opinion, and in his opinion my horse wasn't as good as the western types.:winkgrin:

Always another little open show going on somewhere we could go to.