Spinoff from another thread - Breeding

[Kristiesunny]

Okay this may be an unpopular opinion but who thinks....

1. That you should have to pass a test to be qualified to be a breeder.
a. Test should prove you are well educated, understand the consequences of your action.
b. Test your mental health, find out why you feel the need to add to the population of any particular species.

2. Pay a breeders fee for every newborn.

3. Have to provide charity work to Rescue organizations, whether that is monetary or in person.

4. Be responsible for any offspring that becomes unwanted.

Oh and this includes breeding humans too :)

So what do you think and I'm serious. Everyone rants about slaughter Pro/Cons when in reality it is the breeding that is a problem.

I like well bred animals. My dogs are purebreeds and I paid lots of money for them. 2 of my horses are wellbred and cost money, one was a rescue and turns out to be the most expensive of all :D

I have no children, nor do I intend to ever have them. People have begged me to breed my dogs, to pass on the lines but I have refused time and again. Why, of course I want puppies, but I don't want to think about where the puppies will end up, nor what happens if people breed the puppies I produce. Eeeeek.

[edit] Moderator what did you edit?

[grayarabs]

Sometimes I think about how warmbloods have to be approved for breeding.
But I guess that doesn't mean that people with warmbloods won't breed their stallions/mares without the approval? I don't know.
There are obviously less warmbloods in this country and they are more expensive than the "average" horse.
I wonder about having other breeds requiring inspections and approvals for breeding.
Yeah - like that would work. Would be nice though in many ways.

[Daydream Believer]

So what do you think and I'm serious. Everyone rants about slaughter Pro/Cons when in reality it is the breeding that is a problem.



No, not really...and this is the flaw in your thinking. Slaughter of horses exists because people somewhere else like to eat the meat of horses...no other reason than that. Even if we reduced the numbers of horses in the US by 50%, they would still slaughter them because slaughter is not driven by how many "excess" horses there are available but rather by how many people want to eat horsemeat. If there were less horses, prices would be higher...no doubt there...but horses would still die for meat as long as people want to eat them or until it's fully outlawed...which is unlikely. :no:

I think you are going to find it very hard to pass such laws where people pay fees to breed foals when major registries like AQHA and AHA endorse slaughter versus responsible breeding...but then it is their profit margins in question. ;)

I am a small breeder and I do breed responsibly... I do take back any horse I bred if needed (so far it has not been) and will be responsible for life for that horse. I don't see why breeders should be held to a higher cost for rescues though as most of those discarded horses needing rescues were not discarded by breeders but by end users...people who buy the horses to ride, show and enjoy them.

I would rather see humane laws enforced for ALL animals and people held accountable for their actions rather than the joke it is now where horrible neglect and abuse is punished with a small fine or a handslap. Until we reach that point, I don't see it getting any better.

[jetsmom]

Ditto Daydream Believer as to why there is slaughter. If there was no demand for horsemeat overseas, slaughter would end, regardless of how many horses there were here.

In the late 80's we slaughtered over 340,000 horses (Demand for horse meat was up due to Mad Cow disease overseas). There were less than 6 million horses in the US at that time. Up until 2 years ago we were slaughtering about 60,000. Yet there were over 9 million horses here. There is no correlation between the number of horses in the US and how many are slaughtered.

[Dazednconfused]

Those are all nice ideas, and I agree with them in principle, but who exactly is in charge of these theoretical though serious proposals?

Who decides what qualifies as someone being well educated or understanding the consequences of their actions, or 'mental health'? #4 is black and white but the rest, not so much. As we all know horse people have quite a large variation on opinions - what's the saying - one horse, two people, three opinions? Who decides what's good enough? Warmblood inspections are a nice model, but you're pretty deluded if you think that it's not "political" just like anything else that is so subjective.

Racehorses, jumpers, barrel racing, etc at least take the subjectivity out of things which is nice.

[Equilibrium]

Why isn't this on the Breeding section? You might find more answers over there.

Terri

[mvp]

I do think some of the original preference for WBs within the US market came from the (real or perceived) superiority of breeds whose standards had been formally controlled by European state-run programs rather than the free market.

There is absolutely something to be said for scrupulous, knowledgeable, long-term-thinking breeders. I'm sure everyone tries their best but some people are better at it and more responsible than others.

I bred one whom I will keep forever. I also gelded him, and have no intention of breeding another. Picking two parents (primarily by phenotype), then inferring genotype from that, then hoping that you get precisely the genes and characteristics you want in the next generation is very, very difficult for any breeder. I think it's best left to dedicated pros who have lots of time and money with which to study and make mistakes. That having been said, those "living mistakes", culls, will still need to be fed for 35 years. Everyone should take this into account before breeding.

With respect to the strong claim that slaughter and production of excess horses is driven by demand, I just don't see it. I don't think there is there is really the equivalent of veal farms for horses in the US. I do think that, all things being equal, the less well-bred horse is more likely to be seen as not worth his keep. The less valuable horse is often the one destined for slaughter, in the worst case scenario, because his owner doesn't want to spring for euthanasia.

These are strong, perhaps offensive opinions, but I don't think there's room for sentiment or politeness when horses get loaded onto slaughter trucks because people can't say it like it is.

[luvmywalkers]

Okay this may be an unpopular opinion but who thinks....

1. That you should have to pass a test to be qualified to be a breeder.
a. Test should prove you are well educated, understand the consequences of your action.
b. Test your mental health, find out why you feel the need to add to the population of any particular species.

2. Pay a breeders fee for every newborn.

3. Have to provide charity work to Rescue organizations, whether that is monetary or in person.

4. Be responsible for any offspring that becomes unwanted.

Oh and this includes breeding humans too :)

So what do you think and I'm serious. Everyone rants about slaughter Pro/Cons when in reality it is the breeding that is a problem.

I like well bred animals. My dogs are purebreeds and I paid lots of money for them. 2 of my horses are wellbred and cost money, one was a rescue and turns out to be the most expensive of all :D

I have no children, nor do I intend to ever have them. People have begged me to breed my dogs, to pass on the lines but I have refused time and again. Why, of course I want puppies, but I don't want to think about where the puppies will end up, nor what happens if people breed the puppies I produce. Eeeeek.

[edit]

1.a. The end product is proof of education (or lack thereof). Any breeder understands that breeding could result in offspring, i.e. the consequence of breeding.
1.b.1. Test mental health, have the results stored in an international database...have fun with that one!
1.b.2. Most breeders of any species, including human, know exactly why they breed, so perhaps the real question should be: Why do YOU want to know?

2. All breeders already pay a breeders fee: Horse breeders call it "mare care".

3. Why exactly should anyone be made to pay upfront for the lack of responsibility of someone else?

4. Responsibility ends when offspring is sold at which point the new owner becomes the responsible party. Humans become responsible upon reaching legal maturity.

People do not eat horse meat just because it's available: There are many people who actually prefer it over beef.

You have the freedom to choose whether to breed yourself, your puppies, your horses, or not. Remove that freedom and you could find yourself on the other side of that coin: Someday you could be forced to breed - to breeding stock selected for you.

[siegi b.]

Kristiesunny - I think it's pretty funny that after this whole diatribe of yours you tell us that you have two well-bred dogs that you paid lots of money for...... In other words, you're perpetuating the very thing you're ranting about. :-) If nobody bought expensive puppies, breeders wouldn't have a need to produce them.

[pinecone]

Doesn't it seem like the popularity of horse meat would be reduced if it became exorbitantly expensive?

Horse prices are highly influenced by horse quality. If the overall quality of horses being produced improved, then it seems horse prices would go up also, and surely there is a point where it is no longer profitable to slaughter horses for food?

After all, I don't think the meat men shop at warmblood auctions...;)

No matter how much someone may like to eat horse meat, surely they'd cut back if the price of horse meat went up x10, x50, x100?

better quality horses = higher prices = horse meat prices increase = less people eat horses

[Daydream Believer]

Doesn't it seem like the popularity of horse meat would be reduced if it became exorbitantly expensive?

better quality horses = higher prices = horse meat prices increase = less people eat horses

I'm not so sure this is the way it works. It's like saying since Prime Rib costs more than a T-Bone, people will give it up. I, for one, love a good prime rib! Many people (quite wrongly especially from N. American horses) consider horsemeat more healthful than beef...less chance of Mad Cow disease, "free range" mustang (that is how it is marketed in Switzerland where a friend of mine lives) and it is generally thought of as an expensive meat rather than a staple already. Not in all cases but mostly so.

So what is a "better quality" horse to the average American? The average American trail rides and rides western...he/she does not do dressage or jump nor does he or she want a very tall horse. Warmbloods and sport horses in this nation occupy a very special niche and are not perfection in the eyes of many people. I "see" this market well as with my breed...probably more than most breeders on this forum... This market is looking for good sane sensible trail horses or working family/ranch type horses and it is HUGE. Lately there has been a big increase in the gaited breeds for pleasure riding. Granted there is no money in it now compared to specialized disciplines like sport horses, reiners, etc.... but a it is the largest market and where most of the "unwanted" horses are coming from as well as mass breeding operations like ranches where hundreds of foals a year are bred and culls are sent to the meat market like calves in the Fall. Don't forget the PMU ops also...they pump out a lot of foals a year as a by product and they compete with this pleasure horse market also as they are marketed as "rescues" and people get them out of a sense of pity.

So truly, this discussion on this forum with highly specialized sport horse and hunter breeders is probably pretty moot. Most of us here already breed for high quality and are reponsible and market our horses well. Most of us do take very good care of our horses and pay a lot of money to produce healthy high quality foals. :yes:

[classicsporthorses]

To tell you the truth, if we can't get humans to breed responsibly there is no way we can "legislate" and monitor humans breeding horses responsibly.

[RedMare01]

This is not really the right forum (COTH) for this question...I think the majority of the breeders here ARE the responsible breeders you're talking about. If more breeders were like the ones here, the horse industry would be in much better shape. The people with Craigslist ads are not the ones here asking questions about embryo transfer, etc.

Your ideas are interesting, but too big, overwhelming, and frankly scary if put into the wrong hands. The real issue should be registries promoting responsible breeding...which unfortunately I don't think many of the US breeds are good at, or want to be good at ($$$). I think it would be interesting if the AQHA started holding inspections like WB's...very interesting indeed.

Caitlin

[Kristiesunny]

Kristiesunny - I think it's pretty funny that after this whole diatribe of yours you tell us that you have two well-bred dogs that you paid lots of money for...... In other words, you're perpetuating the very thing you're ranting about. :-) If nobody bought expensive puppies, breeders wouldn't have a need to produce them.

I put that in exactly because I'm not against intelligent breeding and was trying prove that point!

Of course this is all a pipe dream and will never happen, but one can wish can't they. I started this thread due to another poster in another forum talking about breeding a Stallion just because she got one.

I find it irresponsible and wanted to talk about it.

Also I didn't put it in this forum because this is not a diatribe against responsible breeders but about people who ARE not. Whether they are breeding humans, dogs, cats, horses, etc....

And I still think it would help with the slaughter problem. Let the countries who eat horse meat breed their own livestock.

If there were less horses here, there would be no surplus to pass overseas.

As for passing a test, I can't imagine it would be that hard to come up with some guidelines. And since horse people are so polarized the test should be done by outside parties.

Really though if we just laws that you have to pass tests to have kids, those kids will probably grow up to be intelligent responsible human beings (for the most part ;)) So lots of backyard breeders and novices wouldn't breed irresponsibly.

Simple really.

But people have to justify what they do so there will be all kinds of excuses as to why this is wrong and won't work.

[Kristiesunny]

2. All breeders already pay a breeders fee: Horse breeders call it "mare care".

ALL BREEDERS, really do you care to revisit your statement? Go to http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ and tell me how many of these folks are paying "mare care" I think everyone who drops a foal on the ground should pay a foal tax of 25.00. That money can be used to fund the ASPCA or other pre approved charities to help those in need.


3. Why exactly should anyone be made to pay upfront for the lack of responsibility of someone else?

Maybe it will make people care enough to get more involved to stop all the poor breeders out there. If there is some bad apples in the classroom everyone has to pay, I learned that in elementary school.


4. Responsibility ends when offspring is sold at which point the new owner becomes the responsible party. Humans become responsible upon reaching legal maturity.

Well this is part of the problem isn't it.


People do not eat horse meat just because it's available: There are many people who actually prefer it over beef.

Yes but not in this country. I don't want to hear that as an excuse. Doesn't fly.


Remove that freedom and you could find yourself on the other side of that coin: Someday you could be forced to breed - to breeding stock selected for you.

And that has what to do with this? I'm not talking about your rights, I'm talking about what happens to unwanted animals, be that human, dog, cat or horse.

Okay forcing me to have sex with someone else is relevant to this conversation how?

[Kristiesunny]

To tell you the truth, if we can't get humans to breed responsibly there is no way we can "legislate" and monitor humans breeding horses responsibly.

I know but it is a nice dream isn't it :)

I would love it if people were forced to pass a test to spew out children. You have to prove you are mentally capable. You are monetarily capable (of course things happen but still if you don't have a job and never plan on getting one having kids makes no sense)

I mean OctoMom - do we really need her breeding?

Ah but I could go off on that tangent for ever. :)

[saratoga]

thought that horse slaughter just existed because of the excess of horses- but unlike dogs and cats that get euthanized at the pound, a little bit of money is able to be made on the horses and their bodies get used.

I've never bred an animal and I'm sure I never will. I have a nice Arab mare but anytime I kinda sorta thought about breeding her, I thought about the fact that there are so many cheap young unwanted horses I could get instead.

Dog breeders bug me more than horse breeders. I cant comprehend how they can keep bringing more dogs into the world knowing how many great ones are killed every day because there are no homes. Having volunteered at our high-kill shelter, I'd never purchase a dog and I try hard not to get angry at people who do, not to mention the morons that wont spay and neuter.

[luvmywalkers]

Quote:

2. All breeders already pay a breeders fee: Horse breeders call it "mare care".

ALL BREEDERS, really do you care to revisit your statement? Go to http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ and tell me how many of these folks are paying "mare care" I think everyone who drops a foal on the ground should pay a foal tax of 25.00. That money can be used to fund the ASPCA or other pre approved charities to help those in need.

You seem to confuse breeding with ownership. Foals don't just "drop". The mare that carries the foal has to be cared for. Oftentimes, the mare owner also has to pay for the semen. In other cases the mare owner is also the stud owner - and has to care for the stud. Neither mare nor stud live on air.

Quote:
3. Why exactly should anyone be made to pay upfront for the lack of responsibility of someone else?

Maybe it will make people care enough to get more involved to stop all the poor breeders out there. If there is some bad apples in the classroom everyone has to pay, I learned that in elementary school.

Could you please give your definition of "poor breeder"?
You seem to prefer collective, pre-empt punishment. When I attended elementary school, the bad apples were punished, and sometimes removed. Those were also the days when highschool graduates didn't need assistance filling out job applications.

Quote:
4. Responsibility ends when offspring is sold at which point the new owner becomes the responsible party. Humans become responsible upon reaching legal maturity.

Well this is part of the problem isn't it.

I do not see a problem with that, but you obviously do. So please tell, if you are mature, why would you like for your parents to still be responsible for your choices?

Quote:
People do not eat horse meat just because it's available: There are many people who actually prefer it over beef.

Yes but not in this country. I don't want to hear that as an excuse. Doesn't fly.

Even in this country. Not an excuse, but a fact. Don't post on BBs if you don't want to 'hear' opposing opinions.

Quote:
Remove that freedom and you could find yourself on the other side of that coin: Someday you could be forced to breed - to breeding stock selected for you.

And that has what to do with this? I'm not talking about your rights, I'm talking about what happens to unwanted animals, be that human, dog, cat or horse.

Okay forcing me to have sex with someone else is relevant to this conversation how?

I wasn't talking about my rights either; I was talking about the freedom of choice. You included human breeding. Relevance: Without choice, SOMEONE is in control. That SOMEONE could decide one day that what this world needs is more people with blond hair and blue eyes and less people with dark hair hair and brown eyes. Where oh where have I heard this before?

[ASBJumper]

Kristiesunny -

I understand where you're coming from, and god knows when I read news stories about white trash parents (example) beating or molesting their children I make snide comments about people needing a license/permit to reproduce.... BUT:

You need to read the book "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley.
You will never have such thoughts ever again.

You think it's just mental and financial state that people would "assess" to determine if you're "fit to produce children"? If so, then you're naive. Imagine a world where your entire medical history and that of your family is known, and you are forbidden to have children because of some genetic disorder or predisposition in your family, or because there's a history of depression or you have multiple family members who are bipolar.

In the book I mentioned above, humans are artifically created in petri dishes, and depending on their genetic make-up they are divided into "groups" (alphas, betas, etc..), and educated and treated differently. Only alphas are allowed to reproduce.

Can you truly imagine what kind of world we would live in if things like the right to bear children were taken away from us?

It's a slippery slope, my dear. Be careful what you wish for.

I agree with DB who said that there simply needs to be stricter laws to protect animals and children and punish those who neglect or abuse them.

[stoicfish]

Kristie,
I think your heart is in the right place. But there are some serious issues with testing people on their competence, for example driving is a knowledge based skill, whereas breeding is more of an ethics issue. I can see you follow Fugly and like I said I think you (and her) are passionate and your opinions are out of genuine concern. But some people are really Ok with horses being used for meat and some see horses as livestock. I am in Canada, where they still have horse slaughter, I live 15 minutes from a plant and my town has a large auction. I agree that there will be a market for meat in Europe regardless, but I disagree that horse prices will not affect the meat market in Canada. Slaughter horses are always fairly cheap and most people that breed a pasture horse to another and not train it – are surprisingly unaware that there horse will go for meat. Yup, most people still think their “Flame” who is 7 and un-broke will find a good home. 80% of Canadian horses are slaughtered. I think the best thing you can do is make people aware of the facts, with less emotion and personal opinion tied to it. I assume you eat no meat what so ever, because at the end of the day, the value of the life of a horse, cow ect is very subjective. Hell even being a vegetarian is still participating in a society that uses up animal habitat. It is not a simple moral statement, it is complex. I wouln't eat my horse, but do I have the right to tell others not to because of how I feel?

Oh now for my own emotional response (that is scientifically based), Mad cow is not spread to humans (unless you eat raw brain or spinal cord), it is caused by a prion and is very non-contagious between animals unless you feed them raw brain…The whole issue with Mad Cow is more political then anything, JFYI.
Signed -Still Pissed Alberta Cattle Breeder.

[Zlotych]

ALL BREEDERS, really do you care to revisit your statement? Go to http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ and tell me how many of these folks are paying "mare care" I think everyone who drops a foal on the ground should pay a foal tax of 25.00. That money can be used to fund the ASPCA or other pre approved charities to help those in need.


So, breeders that are already spending $ on stud fees, veterinary expenses, farrier expenses, mare care, farm maintenance, foal registrations, futurities, websites, advertising etc. (the list could go on and on...) should pay MORE for the privilege of having a live, healthy foal?

Good one. :lol:

[YankeeLawyer]

So, breeders that are already spending $ on stud fees, veterinary expenses, farrier expenses, mare care, farm maintenance, foal registrations, futurities, websites, advertising etc. (the list could go on and on...) should pay MORE for the privilege of having a live, healthy foal?

Good one. :lol:

Seriously. I could have a very fancy new car instead of my breeding expenses for the past 12 months alone (actually, that is probably proof positive of mental instability ; )).

[YankeeLawyer]

If there is some bad apples in the classroom everyone has to pay, I learned that in elementary school.

I think that ithe above illustrates why your proposal is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion. Legislation should not be driven by the lowest common denominator - that approach makes for bad policy. I also personally do not agree with the view that government should save people from themselves.

[pinecone]

This is not really the right forum (COTH) for this question...I think the majority of the breeders here ARE the responsible breeders you're talking about. If more breeders were like the ones here, the horse industry would be in much better shape. The people with Craigslist ads are not the ones here asking questions about embryo transfer, etc.

I agree. The people who need most to hear the message about responsible breeding, for the most part aren't on this forum (with just a few exceptions.)

The real issue should be registries promoting responsible breeding...which unfortunately I don't think many of the US breeds are good at, or want to be good at ($$$)

This bears repeating. Some registries need to drop the mentality of quantity over quality.

It's like saying since Prime Rib costs more than a T-Bone, people will give it up. I, for one, love a good prime rib!

But if the price of Prime Rib jumped from $20 up to $75, or $100, or $200, would you eat as much of it?

2. All breeders already pay a breeders fee: Horse breeders call it "mare care".
ALL BREEDERS, really do you care to revisit your statement? Go to http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/ and tell me how many of these folks are paying "mare care"

I agree with the OP on this. The definition of "mare care" varies greatly. To most of the people on this forum it means good feed, hay, turn out, vaccinations, supplements, ultrasounds, insemination expenses, and a stud fee. To the irresponsible breeders, mare care may mean "oops, my mare looks fat and has milk, do you think she's pregnant?" or it may mean scrawny neglected mares who've never seen a blacksmith and are kept in sand paddocks behind a strand of barb wire and are being live covered by the neighbors stallion (or her own ungelded colt from an earlier year!)

Maybe it will make people care enough to get more involved to stop all the poor breeders out there.

There are people who care. A LOT. And some are taking steps to fix things, but it is a slow process. Education and awareness will make a huge impact. However, punishing the good breeders for the actions of the poor breeders doesn't seem fair either.

OP, like others have said, your heart is in the right place, but this is a huge issue and it will take time. Educate people, make them aware, send them to the Fugly blog if they need a wake up call. Those are things you CAN do.

[Equilibrium]

To understand the full extent of Newbie's reason for this thread you need to visit the Endurance section of the board and check out the closed thread Aventura had on her new horse who is an Arabian stallion.

I thought it belonged on the Breeding section because maybe she would see where most of the Breeders on this board come from. Even those who are breeding for a nice quiet lifetime horse who they can do anything on know the costs are large. I wanted her to know that none of us take it lightly and try very hard to put the best product we can out there for future generations. So therefore this is the flip side of the coin. If a debate need take place on slaughter well then go to Off Course.

She states herself she spent loads of money on pedigree dogs and that's great. She got what she wanted because a reputable breeder had what she wanted and the quality she wanted. Horse people have the same choices. But while she wanted a certain breed doesnt mean everyone wanted that same breed or looked for the same qualities in a dog that she did.

To knock every horse breeder who doesn't breed for Olympic Sport or the very highest level just grates on my nerves. Quoting Fugly every time someone decides to breed a mare gets on my nerves. Yes, I love the passion involved but no one on this board enters lightly into breeding a mare. Look at all the tradgedy threads and tell me we take this lightly or are unconcerned with all that can happen during a breeding season.

And then there is breeding for stallion prospects, breeding for sport, breeding for broodmares of the future, and breeding for a good all around horse who can be what all the of the above maybe can't. Look at all the threads on Ammy friendly horses versus top level competition horses and the performance versus pedigree threads. We all are told over and over again to breed for temparment and rideability yet look at the horses in the top level of sport. Basically they can't even be a part of the prize giving ceremony as they loose their tops. And people flock to the stallions these good horses are by and talk about rideability and temparment. OK you can use the mare is rock solid so I know my foal will be just fine excuse, but really you don't know it will be fine. I've also seen TB mares and some very good warmblood mares I think are just awful, but then they show they can out produce themselves every time with a variety of stallions. And I mean out produce in conformation and in the field of sport and racing. And I've also seen the most beautiful of mares under produce themselves time and time again.

And finally to SO's. Having read much on this board about what SO's go through and I can't say too many do this so they can get rich. And those who did indeed have that as a plan aren't around anymore. The costs of getting your stallion graded or even just to a decent competition level are extraordinary. Which brings us full circle to the original post which brought up this topic of how having an Arab stallion could be a disaster as it might produce more Arab babies nobody wants. And I guess the whole point is why do we get to decide who should have what.

Terri

[luvmywalkers]

I agree. The people who need most to hear the message about responsible breeding, for the most part aren't on this forum (with just a few exceptions.)



This bears repeating. Some registries need to drop the mentality of quantity over quality.



But if the price of Prime Rib jumped from $20 up to $75, or $100, or $200, would you eat as much of it?



I agree with the OP on this. The definition of "mare care" varies greatly. To most of the people on this forum it means good feed, hay, turn out, vaccinations, supplements, ultrasounds, insemination expenses, and a stud fee. To the irresponsible breeders, mare care may mean "oops, my mare looks fat and has milk, do you think she's pregnant?" or it may mean scrawny neglected mares who've never seen a blacksmith and are kept in sand paddocks behind a strand of barb wire and are being live covered by the neighbors stallion (or her own ungelded colt from an earlier year!)



There are people who care. A LOT. And some are taking steps to fix things, but it is a slow process. Education and awareness will make a huge impact. However, punishing the good breeders for the actions of the poor breeders doesn't seem fair either.

OP, like others have said, your heart is in the right place, but this is a huge issue and it will take time. Educate people, make them aware, send them to the Fugly blog if they need a wake up call. Those are things you CAN do.

Did I say "mare care"? Poor breeders generally don't care.

I can think of lots of people who probably have their heart in the right place. But, more importantly, do they walk the talk? OP didn't when paying good money for her well-bred dogs and thereby contributing to what she sees as a problem. We already have way too many dogs. Why didn't she go to the pound and adopt a couple? Hopefully her dogs will never have the unintended experience of breeding, since they're obviously not fixed.

[luvmywalkers]

Seriously. I could have a very fancy new car instead of my breeding expenses for the past 12 months alone (actually, that is probably proof positive of mental instability ; )).

Not neccessarily, it has greatly contributed to my mental stability :lol:

[pinecone]

I don't agree with the OP about her dogs (or some of her other ideas either, for that matter), but it doesn't change the fact that she does have some valid concerns. We do have a problem with irresponsible horse breeding in this country. (Just not so much on this board!) However, just because people on this board aren't so much part of the PROBLEM, we can certainly help raise awareness and help educate others to try to FIX the problem.

As for the Arabian thing? Oy. I can't even go there now.

[Kristiesunny]

Seriously. I could have a very fancy new car instead of my breeding expenses for the past 12 months alone (actually, that is probably proof positive of mental instability ; )).

Exactly :D :D

[Kristiesunny]

I agree. The people who need most to hear the message about responsible breeding, for the most part aren't on this forum (with just a few exceptions.)



This bears repeating. Some registries need to drop the mentality of quantity over quality.



But if the price of Prime Rib jumped from $20 up to $75, or $100, or $200, would you eat as much of it?



I agree with the OP on this. The definition of "mare care" varies greatly. To most of the people on this forum it means good feed, hay, turn out, vaccinations, supplements, ultrasounds, insemination expenses, and a stud fee. To the irresponsible breeders, mare care may mean "oops, my mare looks fat and has milk, do you think she's pregnant?" or it may mean scrawny neglected mares who've never seen a blacksmith and are kept in sand paddocks behind a strand of barb wire and are being live covered by the neighbors stallion (or her own ungelded colt from an earlier year!)



There are people who care. A LOT. And some are taking steps to fix things, but it is a slow process. Education and awareness will make a huge impact. However, punishing the good breeders for the actions of the poor breeders doesn't seem fair either.

OP, like others have said, your heart is in the right place, but this is a huge issue and it will take time. Educate people, make them aware, send them to the Fugly blog if they need a wake up call. Those are things you CAN do.

Thank you pinecone, for a well thought out post. I surely don't have the answers and was just throwing out some insane ideas. I think it is an overwhelming issue and it's so much easier to not deal with it for many.

I did not say anyone here is a poor breeder, as a matter of fact I've never even come into this forum before. The Mod's moved this here and it was not started as an Pro/Con slaughter conversation either.

I know it is expensive to breed right, but it should be even more expensive so that only the most privileged and knowledgeable get to do it.

In my dogs I looked for gait, looks, and mental health. Luckily in one I got the whole package in the other, not so lucky. The not so lucky one, was bred by a man who churns out dogs for 5000k - 10K each these days (I didn't pay nowhere near that much ;))

He has written several books on his breed and was a respected judge. But he doesn't care about the well being of his dogs, just the bottom line. But his line is known everywhere. It was my first time purchasing a dog instead of going to the pound. I was naive.

Second dog I had more experience and researched the breeder as much as her care and her lines. It paid off in spades!

Both spend money on their females, both provide housing, medical care, etc to their dogs. But each treats their animals in a completely different manner.

So many levels to this breeding rules.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Kristiesunny]

And I guess the whole point is why do we get to decide who should have what.

Terri

Terri:

Thanks for explaining the reason for the post :) But answer to your last statement. We should care and decide because we are talking about a living FEELING, being. We should care what happens to them all. Therefore it means we should determine who is qualified to care for them.

[Kristiesunny]

I can think of lots of people who probably have their heart in the right place. But, more importantly, do they walk the talk? OP didn't when paying good money for her well-bred dogs and thereby contributing to what she sees as a problem. We already have way too many dogs. Why didn't she go to the pound and adopt a couple? Hopefully her dogs will never have the unintended experience of breeding, since they're obviously not fixed.

Uhhhh I've already explained 3x I'm not against breeding, just indiscriminate, willy nilly breeding. I have adopted dogs from the pound since I was a baby, it is what my parents taught me to do.

As I got older I didn't want someone else's problems, I wanted dogs that were puppies so I could raise them myself..

And where did I say my dogs are not spayed and neutered?? You ASSumed based on my saying people wanted to breed to them....

And I'm fully capable of owning intact male and female dogs without any OOPS accidents. It is what well educated people are capable of doing ;)

Luv: I will repeat it just especially for you. I am not against well bred animals. I am against people breeding cuz their horse is ooo so special and they just want a baby out of her. OR in the case of the other thread a person getting a stallion and thinking of breeding. Why - is that stallion so uber special that his genetics need to keep the line going?

I am not attacking you personally or your breeding program. So stop acting like I am.

[Daydream Believer]

I know it is expensive to breed right, but it should be even more expensive so that only the most privileged and knowledgeable get to do it.

.

So if I understand you correctly, you'd like to make breeding and horses so expensive that only a select few people...the most privileged.... will ever be able to afford one of these incredibly expensive beasts? What a snobby attitude!

Look past your own situation and background...look out of sporthorses and to the many many horses owned and loved and exceptionally well cared for by working class people all over this country who own them for pleasure. Lots of cheap horses receive very good care and lack for nothing by people who will eat macaroni and cheese for dinner every day other than allow their horses to lack for good hay. I have a lot of friends who fall into the class and some of my foals belong to them. Just because someone isn't rich doesn't mean they take crappy care of their animals.

I agree that we need to encourage responsible breeding and horse ownership but making them so expensive that only select people can afford them is not the direction to go.

[f4leggin]

"I know it is expensive to breed right, but it should be even more expensive so that only the most privileged and knowledgeable get to do it."

Care to rephrase that? I know you probably didn't intend to - but you have implied that only rich people can be knowledgable.

In terms of your whole subject - I am very against punishing the responsible citzen in attempts to control the irresponsible.

I don't think that money should be used to attempt to instill responsibility.
I don't think I have a right to tell other people how to live based on my personal my values.

In terms of horse slaughter - I raise cattle, chickens, pigs for food - folks wonder how I can do it - feed them everyday, have them trust me, and then butcher them. Until I am willing to be a vegeterian and everyone in my family is - I would rather raise the livestock myself and know the animals are treated well while living. I guess that's how I feel about horse slaughter. There are certainly worse fates than that for a horse. The trip to the slaughter, the care before the slaughter, what they have gone through to get there - all that is a very scarey thought for me.

Jill

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Kristiesunny;4154458]
3. Have to provide charity work to Rescue organizations, whether that is monetary or in person.


charity mandated is no longer charity

[luvmywalkers]

Kristiesunny in grey

Uhhhh I've already explained 3x I'm not against breeding, just indiscriminate, willy nilly breeding. I have adopted dogs from the pound since I was a baby, it is what my parents taught me to do.

And again, you try to achieve this by punishing the good breeders, thereby allowing the bad breeders to take full responsibility. Not only that, you want good breeders to remain fully responsible for their end product, without mentioning owners' reponsibility.

As I got older I didn't want someone else's problems, I wanted dogs that were puppies so I could raise them myself..

Exactly the same reason some horse breeders have and probably the same reason humans breed. And while you have that choice, you want to take that choice away from everybody else.

And where did I say my dogs are not spayed and neutered?? You ASSumed based on my saying people wanted to breed to them....

Now who's doing the ASSuming? Recognize this: "I have refused time and again"...had they been fixed there wouldn't have been something to refuse.

And I'm fully capable of owning intact male and female dogs without any OOPS accidents. It is what well educated people are capable of doing ;)

Good...now if only those educated people find a way to prevent natural disasters for instance. Case in point: Hurricane Ike 'blew' in 2 well-bred, intact Blue Heelers. Guess their previous owner wasn't well educated - insert smiley of your choice.

Luv: I will repeat it just especially for you. I am not against well bred animals. I am against people breeding cuz their horse is ooo so special and they just want a baby out of her. OR in the case of the other thread a person getting a stallion and thinking of breeding. Why - is that stallion so uber special that his genetics need to keep the line going?

Especially for you: The people who breed "because" their horse is so special are more likely to actually care for and about that foal than the 100 of 1000's of foals that are the result of "well-breeding" and produced to fulfill a future promise in racing, hunting, jumping etc.

As for A2's Arabian stallion: Would you be kind enough to tell us your qualifications that made it possible for you to decide that this stallion should not be used for breeding?

I am not attacking you personally or your breeding program. So stop acting like I am.

Was I supposed to feel attacked? Maybe the definition of debate has changed over time. Or are these new rules of the board? You post your opinion and we all agree...Sorry dear, if you can't handle opposing opinions you should argue to a mirror.

[RedMare01]

Terri:

Thanks for explaining the reason for the post :) But answer to your last statement. We should care and decide because we are talking about a living FEELING, being. We should care what happens to them all. Therefore it means we should determine who is qualified to care for them.

But who is WE?

Does WE = You? Or does WE = Me? Because you and I might have a very different idea of what should be bred and what shouldn't. And I might not like you very much, so I guess it doesn't matter what you're breeding because I won't let you breed no matter what.

Is anybody else reminded of Animal Farm? All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others...I knew HS English class was going to come in handy at some point. :lol:

Caitlin

[imapepper]

Luv: I will repeat it just especially for you. I am not against well bred animals. I am against people breeding cuz their horse is ooo so special and they just want a baby out of her. OR in the case of the other thread a person getting a stallion and thinking of breeding. Why - is that stallion so uber special that his genetics need to keep the line going?

Why is this so bad? I have carefully considered breeding my mare because she is special to me. I wouldn't mind coming out with an exact clone of her. I haven't because I am a little concerned with the economy and I also am not sure I want to take risks with my mare. Plus the practical side of me says I can go find an OTTB for less than the stud fee of the stallions I like :) I think that your arguement presumes that the person who breeds one or two is irresponsible and that is not the case. I haven't bothered to check out fugly and I know that there is plenty of breedings that do not need to happen but you are preaching to people who for the most part are plunking down $1000 plus for a stud fee and another $1000 to get the mare pregnant via AI. I certainly wouldn't be putting out that kind of cash for something that I plan to dump at the auction. I think that we have already considered the costs and the risks.

Also, I actually do adopt my dogs. My rescue dog lived to be 18. He came to me with heartworm and was generally unhealthy as a 1 year old. I would love a Westie but I will probably never buy a purebred dog because there are so many that need homes and I don't mind a little baggage from their former owners....they need homes and love. I actually feel the same way for the most part about the horses that I acquire. I usually don't spend much and buy pity cases because I like seeing them blossom into nice horses.

BTW.... I have also had the thought that people should pass tests to have kids.....so you are not alone there but I would hate to have it legislated.

[FriesianX]

But who is WE?

Is anybody else reminded of Animal Farm? All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others...I knew HS English class was going to come in handy at some point. :lol:

Caitlin

Yeah, and it even took me back to HS HISTORY - creation of the master race:eek: With one person deciding what was the master race, i.e. blond hair, blue eyes, proper religion, etc. Whose going to decide who gets to breed, who doesn't? And mental stability - YankeeLaw says it all - anyone who is into horses must be crazy. :confused:

I do sometimes agree, it would be nice if we could ensure all children are born into financially and emotionally stable homes, that all horses were born with international ability and the quietest of minds, and all puppies were purebred performance dogs, and of course, it would only rain at night and be sunny every day. That isn't reality, that is Camelot.

Most sport horse breeders are fairly responsible - if you really want to do something about excessive breeding programs, COTH (or any of the other big horse forums) is probably not the place to start such a social experiment. Someone mentioned Craigslist - that might be a good start. Or, driving through a remote area a few weeks ago, I saw a hand lettered sign that said "All Horses, All Ages, Cheap. Stud service too". That might be a place worth looking at :lol: But those breeders aren't on a forum, researching, networking, etc!

Breeding your mare because you really truly love her, love her mind, love her performance, that isn't such a bad thing! Generally, those are one-time breeders who keep the offspring for life. For better or for worse.

Interesting concept, not realistic:no:

[stoicfish]

The interesting thing about this topic, for me, is that I would not want to regulate the breeders or tell someone they can’t breed. But on the other hand I have seen a lot of really good examples of people breeding for the wrong reason. How do I judge the reason being wrong? They are unaware of the responsibilities of a young horse and training it for a useful purpose. In other words, not only is it poorly bred (health issues, bad conformation, just dam ugly), there is no intent to train the animal or to make sure there is a market for the horse other than meat. I believe education would be way more effective than monetary regulation. Making responsible people pay more to prevent irresponsible peoples behavior, really is not logical. Like assuming gun registry will prevent crime. Those who commit crimes won’t use a registered gun, so back to square one at a huge cost.
I get what Kristie is shooting for, just disagree with the strategy. I think she is suggesting increasing the value of the horse in general so it won’t be in a surplus situation, or it will not be acquired by people without the means to properly care for them. Ironically this is probably not the best audience. I think that value is already associated with most of the horses bred by the people here. However, this is a forum of horse enthusiast, so maybe a discussion about retired horses or horse placement is relevant. How about the breeder with a retired broodie, that is not trained and can no longer breed, looking for someone else to give the mare a home, when they have already made their money off the horse. I don’t think the WB breeding group is completely without issue. I think the racing forum is familiar with many of these issues and have tried to deal with some of them through regulation. I also think that sometime we forget there is a whole other aspects to the horse business, just because it is so far removed from the quality of lives most of our animals get.

[Nootka]

Quote:

2. All breeders already pay a breeders fee: Horse breeders call it "mare care".

I call it registration fees. With WB registries you have to pay inspection fees and registration fees......

Quote:
People do not eat horse meat just because it's available: There are many people who actually prefer it over beef.

Yes but not in this country. I don't want to hear that as an excuse. Doesn't fly

Even in this country. Not an excuse, but a fact. Don't post on BBs if you don't want to 'hear' opposing opinions
Thank you sooooo much for pointing this out. There are people that eat horse here in the states not just overseas. Don't kid yourself.


My comments above in Turquoise:yes:

[pinecone]

I would not want to regulate the breeders or tell someone they can’t breed.

In a way, the reputable warmblood/sporthorse registries help do this already, via breeding approval, inspections, limiting the breeds they'll accept for registration, etc

[Kristiesunny]

The interesting thing about this topic, for me, is that I would not want to regulate the breeders or tell someone they can’t breed. But on the other hand I have seen a lot of really good examples of people breeding for the wrong reason. How do I judge the reason being wrong? They are unaware of the responsibilities of a young horse and training it for a useful purpose. In other words, not only is it poorly bred (health issues, bad conformation, just dam ugly), there is no intent to train the animal or to make sure there is a market for the horse other than meat. I believe education would be way more effective than monetary regulation. Making responsible people pay more to prevent irresponsible peoples behavior, really is not logical. Like assuming gun registry will prevent crime. Those who commit crimes won’t use a registered gun, so back to square one at a huge cost.
I get what Kristie is shooting for, just disagree with the strategy. I think she is suggesting increasing the value of the horse in general so it won’t be in a surplus situation, or it will not be acquired by people without the means to properly care for them. Ironically this is probably not the best audience. I think that value is already associated with most of the horses bred by the people here. However, this is a forum of horse enthusiast, so maybe a discussion about retired horses or horse placement is relevant. How about the breeder with a retired broodie, that is not trained and can no longer breed, looking for someone else to give the mare a home, when they have already made their money off the horse. I don’t think the WB breeding group is completely without issue. I think the racing forum is familiar with many of these issues and have tried to deal with some of them through regulation. I also think that sometime we forget there is a whole other aspects to the horse business, just because it is so far removed from the quality of lives most of our animals get.

Excellent points yet again Stoic. I PM'd you before to compliment you on your first post.

Okay so lets shift the ship in another direction. Since, obviously, there will never be regulation on breeding - humans or animals....

What education would you like passed down to the average animal owning public?

How does this information get disseminated?

How do we prevent indiscriminate breeding by total disreputable people? How do you get people to realize that Pet Stores/Puppy Mills/Fugly Breeders are not the ones to buy from?

[YankeeLawyer]

How do we prevent indiscriminate breeding by total disreputable people? How do you get people to realize that Pet Stores/Puppy Mills/Fugly Breeders are not the ones to buy from?

Re "indiscriminate breeding" - what does that mean, exactly? Who decides what is worth breeding and what is not? For example, we breed with the goal of producing international caliber sporthorses. That is a *very* small market. I don't think you would target my program as indiscriminate, but who is to say that breeding for a niche, elite market is more meritorious / makes more sense than breeding for the lower level amateur - which, btw, is at least 90% of the market? (Of course, I also do not breed anything I would not or could not keep indefinitely, which goes to responsible breeding, but still....)

Re making people "realize" they should not buy from puppy or foal mills - first, what makes you think buyers are so dumb, and second, why would you want to decrease the likelihood that these horses will get loving homes? What is it to you if someone has a backyard pasture pet that could be featured on Fugly provided the horse receive appropriate care?

Finally, regarding neglected horses, there are animal welfare laws already in place to address that problem. Perhaps focus on enforcement of already existing laws rather than propose an unworkable and inequitable regulatory scheme.

[BravAddict]

Okay this may be an unpopular opinion but who thinks....

1. That you should have to pass a test to be qualified to be a breeder.
a. Test should prove you are well educated, understand the consequences of your action.
b. Test your mental health, find out why you feel the need to add to the population of any particular species.

Oh and this includes breeding humans too :)

[edit] Moderator what did you edit?

Surely you jest? Testing people's sanity/intelligence before allowing them to have children is a human rights violation...hence the unpopularity. Defenseless animals, maybe...we humans, with our free will and ahem, humility, are guaranteed the "right to reproduce."

Put another way, anything like this that relates to humans begs the question "Who is to judge?" Personally, I am not "into" church/God, but one of the concepts they help promote is that the power of judgment is denied to humans, as it should be. OP, where would YOU draw the line between fit and unfit?

And yes, the choice of "fit" was intentional, if you catch my drift.

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=luvmywalkers;4156403]Kristiesunny in grey



Especially for you: The people who breed "because" their horse is so special are more likely to actually care for and about that foal than the 100 of 1000's of foals that are the result of "well-breeding" and produced to fulfill a future promise in racing, hunting, jumping etc.

As for A2's Arabian stallion: Would you be kind enough to tell us your qualifications that made it possible for you to decide that this stallion should not be used for breeding?


Well said Walkers on both points!

Terri

[stoicfish]

YankeeLawyer – Just wondering, do you believe there is an issue with horses not having homes/going for meat. This is not a sarcastic question at all, I ask because it is an ethics based subject and maybe horses for meat is fine or you believe them to be livestock or maybe in your experience there is not many horses that end up in slaughter? It would mean the discussion would move from how to fix a problem to there not really being one.
And “Re making people "realize" they should not buy from puppy or foal mills - first, what makes you think buyers are so dumb, and second, why would you want to decrease the likelihood that these horses will get loving homes?”
Well, I respectful disagree with the logic of supporting (a sector of) an industry in order to protect the product. Do you really believe that sustaining an industry like puppy mills to protect the puppies is a good thing? It seems that it is just perpetuating the problem and financially rewarding those who put money before the welfare of an animal. To illustrate, there was a rash of puppy mill stories several years ago in the media, since then I have seen a significant shift in pet store “products”. People started requesting the origins of the animals before they bought. I don’t think they were stupid to start with, just unaware. But it did make a huge difference. In fact I will argue that if more people were aware of the horse market they would be more selective in were they bought there horses. Not saying that everything has to be a WB or cost $5000, it just has to be a responsible scenario. I live in Canada so maybe my experience is unique to my area (but I doubt it), but there are people breeding non-purpose horses for riding and at the same time you can get a broke horse at the market for $200, while many others are going for meat and not the kind that is served in a really good Blue cheese-horseradish sauce with a nice glass of Red. The kind of meat that is so cheap that it creates it’s own market due to it’s low cost. Is that responsible breeding, hell with the cost of hay that isn't even good business!
I agree with you about the scheme being unworkable, but I personally, in my own opinion, am not a big fan of the methods of commercial slaughter/treatment for any animal and it makes me sad when I drive by our local market and see the horses through the corals, knowing that the reason they are there, is that many people are unaware of the true nature of the horse market and if they were aware they would do things differently without being forced, punished or legally regulated. I am not morally against eating meat, but I do believe it should be done with propose and with as much respect for the animal as possible.

[YankeeLawyer]

YankeeLawyer – Just wondering, do you believe there is an issue with horses not having homes/going for meat. This is not a sarcastic question at all, I ask because it is an ethics based subject and maybe horses for meat is fine or you believe them to be livestock or maybe in your experience there is not many horses that end up in slaughter? It would mean the discussion would move from how to fix a problem to there not really being one.
And “Re making people "realize" they should not buy from puppy or foal mills - first, what makes you think buyers are so dumb, and second, why would you want to decrease the likelihood that these horses will get loving homes?”
Well, I respectful disagree with the logic of supporting (a sector of) an industry in order to protect the product. Do you really believe that sustaining an industry like puppy mills to protect the puppies is a good thing? It seems that it is just perpetuating the problem and financially rewarding those who put money before the welfare of an animal. To illustrate, there was a rash of puppy mill stories several years ago in the media, since then I have seen a significant shift in pet store “products”. People started requesting the origins of the animals before they bought. I don’t think they were stupid to start with, just unaware. But it did make a huge difference. In fact I will argue that if more people were aware of the horse market they would be more selective in were they bought there horses. Not saying that everything has to be a WB or cost $5000, it just has to be a responsible scenario. I live in Canada so maybe my experience is unique to my area (but I doubt it), but there are people breeding non-purpose horses for riding and at the same time you can get a broke horse at the market for $200, while many others are going for meat and not the kind that is served in a really good Blue cheese-horseradish sauce with a nice glass of Red. The kind of meat that is so cheap that it creates it’s own market due to it’s low cost. Is that responsible breeding, hell with the cost of hay that isn't even good business!
I agree with you about the scheme being unworkable, but I personally, in my own opinion, am not a big fan of the methods of commercial slaughter/treatment for any animal and it makes me sad when I drive by our local market and see the horses through the corals, knowing that the reason they are there, is that many people are unaware of the true nature of the horse market and if they were aware they would do things differently without being forced, punished or legally regulated. I am not morally against eating meat, but I do believe it should be done with propose and with as much respect for the animal as possible.

First of all, let me just say that I probably have more firsthand experience with both puppymills and horse slaughter than most on this board as I have done countless hours of pro bono work to help humane societies litigate against the former (and, in fact, also handled a case involving horrific conditions at a turkey processing plant) and helped rescue a stolen horse from a meat truck headed to Canada as it reached the border. So give me a break. I am 100% against transporting animals in inhumane conditions and slaughtering them in inhumane ways. The closing of horse slaughter plants in this country, though, only led to a worse fate for many horses who were then instead shipped to Mexico or Canada.

Second, with respect to my comment re buying animals already available that need homes, exactly what do you propose should happen to those animals? How many have to stay in poor conditions or end up in slaughter to prove your point? IF they are being neglected or otherwise poorly treated, as I said, there are animal welfare laws in place to address those types of practices, and people could try to make sure those laws are actually enforced (as I have). But I cannot advocate refusing to home the poor unwanted victims of those operations.

Third, it has not been my experience that there are a rash of foal mills out there, in part because it costs a lot to maintain any kind of horse breeding operations and most would not be in business long if they are selling horses at meat prices, and I do not think the majority of horses going to slaughter are products of those programs in this country.

That said, I think some *sellers* need to do more screening before selling a horse to someone, particularly a youngster. I am very particular about where my horses go and would sooner keep all of them than send them somewhere that I believed to be less than ideal for that individual. All of my breeder friends share the same views, and their horses do go to very good homes. We also work with buyers offering stellar homes to make the purchase possible for them.

[Kristiesunny]

Re making people "realize" they should not buy from puppy or foal mills - first, what makes you think buyers are so dumb, and second, why would you want to decrease the likelihood that these horses will get loving homes? What is it to you if someone has a backyard pasture pet that could be featured on Fugly provided the horse receive appropriate care?


Seriously? That is your case FOR keeping puppy mills/foal mills in business because someone will give them a loving home.

What about the mothers, who are confined to cages til they are used up/die? What about mares giving birth without medical care, hoof care, attention to hereditary diseases.

Uh.. I'd rather they were never born and instead have people go to a breeder like you've described yourself.

Someone who spends lots of money to make sure the mare AND Stallion has a quality life. Make people pay well for what they want to "own". If it costs money, more than likely they will have the money to pay the bills.


Finally, regarding neglected horses, there are animal welfare laws already in place to address that problem. Perhaps focus on enforcement of already existing laws rather than propose an unworkable and inequitable regulatory scheme.

Yeah and that works real well. Have you ever watched Animal Planets Cops shows? That is just a small smattering of what goes on. There is not enough people to enforce the laws that are there.

[luvmywalkers]

stoicfish in grey

In fact I will argue that if more people were aware of the horse market they would be more selective in were they bought there horses. Not saying that everything has to be a WB or cost $5000, it just has to be a responsible scenario.

Surely you are not advocating against acquiring rescue horses...that "market" differs quite a bit from puppy mills.

I live in Canada so maybe my experience is unique to my area (but I doubt it), but there are people breeding non-purpose horses for riding and at the same time you can get a broke horse at the market for $200

Riding (trail) horses have a purpose, and many are bred purposely and very selectively for that reason. It is a "job" - same as jumping, barrel-racing, racing.

while many others are going for meat and not the kind that is served in a really good Blue cheese-horseradish sauce with a nice glass of Red. The kind of meat that is so cheap that it creates it’s own market due to it’s low cost. Is that responsible breeding, hell with the cost of hay that isn't even good business!

In some countries horsemeat is cheaper than beef, in others it is a delicatesse. I know of at least one country where about 15,000 horses per year are actually bred for the meat market.

I agree with you about the scheme being unworkable, but I personally, in my own opinion, am not a big fan of the methods of commercial slaughter/treatment for any animal and it makes me sad when I drive by our local market and see the horses through the corals, knowing that the reason they are there, is that many people are unaware of the true nature of the horse market and if they were aware they would do things differently without being forced, punished or legally regulated. I am not morally against eating meat, but I do believe it should be done with propose and with as much respect for the animal as possible.

What exactly is the "true nature" of the horsemarket?

What seems odd to me is the fact that we selected a few species and labeled them "noble", "companion", etc. and therefor deserve better treatment. Mind you, this selection procedure differs from country to country and within the same country can differ from one generation to the next. The noble horse, now a companion, was after all a utility horse until WWII. An animal that was supposed to work for its living. In those days, getting blue ribbons was not considered work.

We seem to be more concerned with how an animal, mainly a horse, is (transported to be) slaughtered than we are with how it lived up until that point.

[YankeeLawyer]

Seriously? That is your case FOR keeping puppy mills/foal mills in business because someone will give them a loving home.



Please re-read my posts. I am not in favor of puppy mills and the like. I am in favor of finding all horses, pets, etc that are already in existence a GOOD home.



Yeah and that works real well. Have you ever watched Animal Planets Cops shows? That is just a small smattering of what goes on. There is not enough people to enforce the laws that are there.

I don't need to watch animal TV since I have done substantial work in this area. See above.

[luvmywalkers]

...What about mares giving birth without medical care, hoof care, attention to hereditary diseases.

Uh.. I'd rather they were never born and instead have people go to a breeder like you've described yourself.

Someone who spends lots of money to make sure the mare AND Stallion has a quality life. Make people pay well for what they want to "own". If it costs money, more than likely they will have the money to pay the bills.


Yes, what about those mares? You are more concerned with the foals they drop...Those mares should not be rescued if possible, because their owners are not "reputable, respectable, well-educated, financially stable" individuals?

[luvmywalkers]

In a way, the reputable warmblood/sporthorse registries help do this already, via breeding approval, inspections, limiting the breeds they'll accept for registration, etc

Just out of curiousity: What exactly happens to those - including foals - who don't get approved?

[stoicfish]

YankeeLawyer-
I have never met you nor do I know what you do. I simply, on an open forum, asked an opinion. How could I know what your opinions are and your experience unless I ask. I don’t really think I need to give you a break, because I wasn’t in judgment before we started nor am I now! Here to learn, and sometimes throw out things for people to think about. Think of it this way, it was a complement that I that I sought your opinion on the subject.

“Second, with respect to my comment re buying animals already available that need homes, exactly what do you propose should happen to those animals? How many have to stay in poor conditions or end up in slaughter to prove your point?”
Well, I am not sure if I am right, if I was I wouldn’t be discussing things. BUT it seems to me that if people used there purchasing power to encourage good conditions for breeding homes instead of ones that are not conducive, small cages bla bla. Then the market for puppy mills would decrease and it follows, so would the mills. This is what the free market system is about, I get to choice my product. If you want to buy puppy mill dogs, that’s fine, I would rather go to a local breeder of dogs, (not even purebreds necessarily) that is caring for the animals, gives them a good home, and is conscious of the market so they don’t over breed or breed something that nobody wants. Sounds like the thoughtfulness of your own horse breeding program? Same with horses. I am not suggesting (as I stated several times) that we regulate anything, but we all get to make a choice in what we support when we purchase. I have several strays myself, but I personally am not going to buy a dog or horse from someone that isn’t treating them right. The argument for buying a poorly treated animal from a business that perpetuates poor treatment, seems like extortion.
As far as the foal mills experience, glad to hear it. Very recently, we used to have PMU barns, that turned out thousand of foals a year. Not saying the mares were mistreated, but foals became a by-product of another market. That produced a huge surplus and created cheap meat markets. I won’t repeat my post but I see many people breeding in hopes of selling for a domestic horse not realizing that there is a good chance it will go for meat. 50% of our horses. Like I said, if meat is your intent-fine, but I believe most people are unaware when they make the choice. That is was I find sad and unnecessary.

Luv- no I don’t think I stated anywhere not to rescue an animal, nor do I think that a trail horse is not important, my own would be grumpy with me if he heard that. If it has a home-it has a purpose. If it is a healthy two year old supplying a “cheap” protein source to dog food, and the breeder just didn’t understand this when they bred…..That is my point-- not people that are breeding for meat on purpose but the ones who are doing it unintentionally, and in Canada that adds up to thousands of horses a year. Just want to give them the facts. I have met many, many people that casually breed. Have only met one that was breeding for meat. Take from this what you want, dismiss it totally. It was only put out there as food for thought…lol
And if you or others want to eat horse meat – cool. Have traveled and ate lots of different things myself. Eat beef all the time.

[luvmywalkers]

...I am not suggesting (as I stated several times) that we regulate anything, but we all get to make a choice in what we support when we purchase. I have several strays myself, but I personally am not going to buy a dog or horse from someone that isn’t treating them right. The argument for buying a poorly treated animal from a business that perpetuates poor treatment, seems like extortion.
As far as the foal mills experience, glad to hear it. Very recently, we used to have PMU barns, that turned out thousand of foals a year. Not saying the mares were mistreated, but foals became a by-product of another market. That produced a huge surplus and created cheap meat markets. I won’t repeat my post but I see many people breeding in hopes of selling for a domestic horse not realizing that there is a good chance it will go for meat. 50% of our horses. Like I said, if meat is your intent-fine, but I believe most people are unaware when they make the choice. That is was I find sad and unnecessary.

Luv- no I don’t think I stated anywhere not to rescue an animal, nor do I think that a trail horse is not important, my own would be grumpy with me if he heard that. If it has a home-it has a purpose. If it is a healthy two year old supplying a “cheap” protein source to dog food, and the breeder just didn’t understand this when they bred…..That is my point-- not people that are breeding for meat on purpose but the ones who are doing it unintentionally, and in Canada that adds up to thousands of horses a year. Just want to give them the facts. I have met many, many people that casually breed. Have only met one that was breeding for meat. Take from this what you want, dismiss it totally. It was only put out there as food for thought…lol
And if you or others want to eat horse meat – cool. Have traveled and ate lots of different things myself. Eat beef all the time.

True, you didn't state not to rescue an animal. However, you did state that we should be more selective with our purchasing power.

Most of the rescue horses I've seen were not owned by the breeders of those horses. Thus, it's not as if they mistreat/neglect a herd of mares that churn out a bunch of foals, i.e. a "business".

Having said that, there are some people who turn rescueing horses into a business...have met those too.

Personally, I'm not much of a meat-eater of any kind. I do enjoy the occasional slice of bacon, I'll even go for a filet mignon when I feel like splurging ;)

[Auventera Two]

Of course this is all a pipe dream and will never happen, but one can wish can't they. I started this thread due to another poster in another forum talking about breeding a Stallion just because she got one.

Ok listen. You are referring to ME, and my Arabian stallion. I NEVER SAID I HAD ANY PLANS TO BREED THE HORSE. I just got him and he's been a herd sire for years. His babies are very very nice. The stallion was marketed and sold as a breeding stallion prospect as a yearling by a very well known, large Arabian training facility in our state. He's been in a breeding program and when they needed to downsize they sold him. I bought him. He was in thin condition and I said that I did not want to stress him with a castaration until he is back in reasonably good weight. I also said that the decision to geld him - or not - would be made between my husband and I based upon the best for the horse, his athletic ability, his continued good disposition, and so forth. If he started getting back into condition and acting hard to handle or getting too full of himself, then I would geld him, of course. But so far that's not been the case.

I also said that since he's so exceptionally well behaved, I wasn't chawing at the bit to geld the horse NOW. I said that the horse has lovely conformation and disposition and I want to WAIT until he is under saddle and COMPETING in endurance before I decide IF HE IS WORTHY TO BREED OR NOT. **IF** we ever arrived at that point, it would ONLY be to a very small select number of highly bred and talented mares for the purpose of furthering the sport of endurance. Not to make money, or to think its a fun cool new hobby. It would be to produce a small number of endurance prospects. But seriously, that's all speculation at this point and we are a good ways out from making any decision at all on what to do with him.

I've ridden the horse twice, he's done exceptionally well both times. I've hired a trainer to help get us started and by this fall I want him on the trail and working. I won't know a THING about his potential as a breeding stallion until:

1. He is back in good flesh and condition
2. He is working on the trail and either proving or disproving his worth.

At this point, he is a joy to handle and work with and so there's no need to geld him right now. The equine dentist just did his teeth and kept commenting over and over about how lovely he is and how sweet and well mannered, and just great. She said not many stallions are that wonderfully mannered and easy to work with. If the animal were dangerous and stupid and a nervous wreck, you bet he wouldn't be left intact for very long, but that is NOT the case.

Thanks to you, I am now being stalked by freaks who are sending me hate mail to my business email account. I think you need to back off and get a life.

[mp]

Ok listen. You are referring to ME, and my Arabian stallion. I NEVER SAID I HAD ANY PLANS TO BREED THE HORSE. I just got him and he's been a herd sire for years. His babies are very very nice. The stallion was marketed and sold as a breeding stallion prospect as a yearling by a very well known, large Arabian training facility in our state. He's been in a breeding program and when they needed to downsize they sold him. I bought him. He was in thin condition and I said that I did not want to stress him with a castaration until he is back in reasonably good weight. I also said that the decision to geld him - or not - would be made between my husband and I based upon the best for the horse, his athletic ability, his continued good disposition, and so forth. If he started getting back into condition and acting hard to handle or getting too full of himself, then I would geld him, of course. But so far that's not been the case.

I also said that since he's so exceptionally well behaved, I wasn't chawing at the bit to geld the horse NOW. I said that the horse has lovely conformation and disposition and I want to WAIT until he is under saddle and COMPETING in endurance before I decide IF HE IS WORTHY TO BREED OR NOT. **IF** we ever arrived at that point, it would ONLY be to a very small select number of highly bred and talented mares for the purpose of furthering the sport of endurance. Not to make money, or to think its a fun cool new hobby. It would be to produce a small number of endurance prospects. But seriously, that's all speculation at this point and we are a good ways out from making any decision at all on what to do with him.

I've ridden the horse twice, he's done exceptionally well both times. I've hired a trainer to help get us started and by this fall I want him on the trail and working. I won't know a THING about his potential as a breeding stallion until:

1. He is back in good flesh and condition
2. He is working on the trail and either proving or disproving his worth.

At this point, he is a joy to handle and work with and so there's no need to geld him right now. The equine dentist just did his teeth and kept commenting over and over about how lovely he is and how sweet and well mannered, and just great. She said not many stallions are that wonderfully mannered and easy to work with. If the animal were dangerous and stupid and a nervous wreck, you bet he wouldn't be left intact for very long, but that is NOT the case.

Thanks to you, I am now being stalked by freaks who are sending me hate mail to my business email account. I think you need to back off and get a life.

Why do you think this thread is about you? Three pages of replies and neither you nor your breed of choice is mentioned anywhere by anyone.

Take a step back and gain a little perspective. Accusing people of stalking you is a bit much, don't you think?

[luvmywalkers]

Why do you think this thread is about you? Three pages of replies and neither you nor your breed of choice is mentioned anywhere by anyone.

Take a step back and gain a little perspective. Accusing people of stalking you is a bit much, don't you think?

Read page 2 (again?) and you should be able to find out that this topic was most definitely "inspired" by A-2 and her new Arabian stallion. To further make the connection, check the Endurance forum.

[egontoast]

I am now being stalked by freaks who are sending me hate mail to my business email account

Do you really want to open that subject? I don't think it counts as hate mail when you wrote it yourself. Hotmail confirmed that the email address you claimed sent you the bogus email did not exist at the time when you claimed the email was sent. Someone registered the account later to prevent you from covering your arse when you realized your mistake.

You brought this up. Go ahead , press the alert but if you are going to continue with your pathetic email hoax, people are going to set the record straight.

[mp]

Read page 2 (again?) and you should be able to find out that this topic was most definitely "inspired" by A-2 and her new Arabian stallion. To further make the connection, check the Endurance forum.

Well, pardon me for not reading more carefully. But I sure didn't notice the OP mentioning her. Or do you need to give me another reading lesson?

I read Auventera's thread on the Endurance Forum and posted my thoughts there. I was just wondering why the OP was being accused of causing her to be stalked. Weird.

[Auventera Two]

Do you really want to open that subject? I don't think it counts as hate mail when you wrote it yourself. Hotmail confirmed that the email address you claimed sent you the bogus email did not exist at the time when you claimed the email was sent. Someone registered the account later to prevent you from covering your arse when you realized your mistake.

You brought this up. Go ahead , press the alert but if you are going to continue with your pathetic email hoax, people are going to set the record straight.

WRONG. MistyBlue says she contacted MSN and no such account was registered. Try googling "fake mailing" "email spoofing" "email bomber" or "sending an email from a fake account."

There is FREE software that allows you to change the name and the address of the email account that a message is coming from. :eek: Whomever sent the nasty message to my account, obviously did so with the cover of a free download software that allowed them to do it. They didn't even HAVE to have an actual hotmail account to make it look like it came from hotmail. Apparently certain posters are mentally sick. :no:

http://www.pcdownloadworld.com/prgdb/fake-mailer.htm

The person didn't NEED to actually register the hotmail account. All they needed to do was plug in a bogus email address and send it from their own regular email account. The world of technology is pretty advanced, and apparently people can do darned near anything they like.

And yes, the thread WAS directed at me and my horse. Someone emailed me the link and said to check it out - these old bags are talking about you again. Good grief.

[Auventera Two]

Why do you think this thread is about you? Three pages of replies and neither you nor your breed of choice is mentioned anywhere by anyone.

Take a step back and gain a little perspective. Accusing people of stalking you is a bit much, don't you think?

To understand the full extent of Newbie's reason for this thread you need to visit the Endurance section of the board and check out the closed thread Aventura had on her new horse who is an Arabian stallion.
Terri

Then:

Terri:

Thanks for explaining the reason for the post :) But answer to your last statement. We should care and decide because we are talking about a living FEELING, being. We should care what happens to them all. Therefore it means we should determine who is qualified to care for them.

When the type of mentally whacked out **** shows up in my personal email box, that's been showing up there for the last few days, no it's not a bit much. It's creepy is what it is!

[luvmywalkers]

The person didn't NEED to actually register the hotmail account.

Oftentimes you can find this already in the header of an email.
Guess not many people complain to companies about spam. If they had, they'd know that 9 out of 10 come from non-existing email addresses.

[mp]

And yes, the thread WAS directed at me and my horse. Someone emailed me the link and said to check it out - these old bags are talking about you again. Good grief.

Then stop talking to the "old bags" and jumping up to spar with them in bold at every opportunity. Because every time you do, you just give them something else to poke you with. And god knows, you've already posted plenty of things to get people pissed off at you, under this name and various other screen names.

But if the wisdom of keeping your mouth shut hasn't sunk in yet, then rant on.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Apparently certain posters are mentally sick. :no:

Why are you jumping to the conclusion that the email in question was written by someone who posts here? Is this the only internet forum board you post on? If not, are you following some kind of "equal accusation" policy?

And yes, the thread WAS directed at me and my horse. Someone emailed me the link and said to check it out - these old bags are talking about you again. Good grief.

And you could have just taken a deep breath and said, "That's just sad" and gone on with your day. It's an internet forum board full of strangers, 99.999% of whom you will never, ever deal with in real life. Why don't you just walk away from this argument and do what you like with no apologies or explanations to anyone?

[AnotherRound]

There is no bogus email account. You sent the email to yourself, and its now known across the internet. There is nobody but you who would wish ill on another person or their horse. Time to come up with a new usename, if you can. Unless you can prove it from the headers of the original email that it didn't come from you, but I would imagine that the super hacker who hacked into your computers also deleted the email while he was in your computer hacking. But if he did, how did you find the email to read it? I am sure once you got it you immediately set up security so that he couldn't get in again. I mean, since he's a smart hacker. And he deleted all traces of the email from hubs and servers across the globe from whence it came? I assume that's why you are unable to verify the IP addresses it touched upon before it got to you? You know, first rule of "gee where'd this come from".

Hotmail does not delete accounts upon request, so there never was a hotmail account. I mean, if you knew it was a "fake" email address, why did you post it in your original COTH Post? as though it proved where it came from? Why did you retype the original email for your post? Why didn't you cut and paste so it could be verified that it was an email and not a fake? The first rule of reproducing an email that is real is to post the headers and the original email, otherwise, its considered retyped and not a real email. Everywhere. Paraphrased, its unverifiable. Nobody believes you. You have done this before.

Your story doesn't add up technologically. It becomes more elaborate every time you tell it. You're lying, and pathetic.

[Auventera Two]

It's a BIG problem because I have received hate mail in my personal email inbox and my website was crashed and infected with viruses. I had trimming clients calling or emailing to tell me that my website crashed their computer. People who had a good firewall (turned on!) and anti-virus program (with updated definitions) didn't notice a problem. People who had the firewall turned off, or didn't have updated virus definitions, got a bunch of malware downloaded to their machine. My web hosting company spent 2 days identifying and deleting/repairing infected files, and it still isn't fixed completely. They've even suggested that I delete everything and re-upload from backups. That's kind of a problem, don't you think? If people had just kept their nose at COTH, fine, whatever. But when you cross the line and invade my personal website and email box, that's a problem.

I post very infrequently on 2 other boards and did not mention the new horse at either of those locations. Given that the hate mail coincided with the thread here, I'd say it was either a regular poster here, or somebody from the infamous litterbox who was tipped off about the thread.

Look, if you don't like the horse, great. More power to ya. But when it goes THIS far, it's time for people to take serious inventory of their mental condition. It's sad that someone (or multiple someones) don't have any more life than this. :no:

[MistyBlue]

MSN did a search on the account...it hasn't been used ever or rotated. There is no virutal history of it even being used short term. Nothing is ever deleted 100% from the internet according to MSN. That address never flew through the internet highways at all. They'll run a check on it for you if you ask to see if it was used for spamming or anything so you can start with a "clean" account. :)

As for the website being crashed, right after you posted the now erased hate mail post...several people went to your website. It worked fine. Checked malware and anti-virus, it detected nothing being blocked from there.

If someone is going to take serious inventory of their mental condition, I'd suggest looking elsewhere. It seems a tad convenient that this all happened as soon as people were saying non-complimentary things aboout your new horse.

And the inconsistencies continue:
An email account can be deleted after it is created. I assume that whomever opened the account, sent a message, then deleted the account via help support. People also use IP rotators to conceal their identity. Remember what Theo was doing on the Dressage forum??????

I've spent 2 days on the phone with my hosting company getting my account back online. All 3 Index.html pages of all 3 of my sites was infected with Trojan tracking software. I still cannot access my website from the office computer it says - "Blocked for Malicious Content."

All the virus files were uploaded at 3:57 a.m. on June 9, 2009. A total of 49 infected files were found, and Go Daddy repaired and/or deleted the files, and I spent hours recovering these files from backups.

So whomever did this to my website obviously knows damned good and well how to set up an an untraceable email account. They managed to hack into a secure FTP on a secure server for christ sake.

And I'd suggest you not email me again or you might get slapped with a harassment suit. I'd also suggest you get a life and stay the hell out of mine.. Who the hell has time to screw around on the internet like you do is completely beyond me.
Not accessing a website from work for that given reason is pretty common if work has blocked non-work related websites. Your computer was also workng well enough to be posting elsewhere, just not here.
And FWIW, whatever I did look into took all of 10 minutes. I wouldn't have bothered with any more time, it was just basic curiosity about which person was insane enough to email you that message in the first place.
Was surprised to find out who the insane acting person was though. ;)
I have not been using that email address except for twice. Once to test, you know the other time. Blocking it is fine...I hadn't planned on ever using it again. However I was rather surprised that you waited until after getting an email from me to block it...why wasn't it blocked right after you got the "first message" you reported on here? The one supposedly from a master hacker chock full of viruses? I would have blocked it right then and there instead of waiting a few days.
And no need to PM me the same reasons and new googled reasons. It would have made more sense to ask the IT folks you had on the phone for hours for the same information as opposed to googling it.

[grayarabs]

Re: Breeding. Years ago I hauled my horse for lessons with a trainer that worked out of a paint breeding farm - it had a covered arena and nice stalls. Friend boarded there and told me that one of the foals was solid color and for whatever reason was in a stall by herself - without her mom. No color. No value. Breeder did not want "the world" to know their stallion had thrown a solid. Foal not to be registered - in fact it was supposed to disappear. Friend and I bought milk replacement for the foal. No idea what happened but that just made me sick. The breeding just for color - ie a paint foal mill - with seemingly little if any regard to conformation or temperament etc.
OTOH I had a friend that bred TB's to race. Two nice mares - he carefully analyzed pedigrees - and bred to the best TB stallions he could afford that would match with his mares - including conformation - legs etc. ie hauled his mares from Texas to California to get the best stallions for his mares. Racing careers over - he gave the horses to local hunter riders. All this - FWIW.
I think the halter classes have done such a disservice to so many breeds.
I wish there were no more halter classes. Wonder what impact that would have?
I personally don't care who is winning in halter - locally or nationally - whatever - any breed.

[Auventera Two]

Since you are so concerned about my life MistyBlue, maybe you could actually READ some of the fake email informational links and you'd know that you do not need to actually have an account set up to send emails from it. With free downloadable software, you can send messages from your normal email account, but designate that they came from somewhere else - and somewhere else doesn't even have to exist. And just so you know - I had no idea how to block email accounts until I spent time digging around on Yahoo and figured out how to do it. And I did not do that until I got the 2nd email from you from that account. In the 10 or so years I've used Yahoo, I never had any need to block an email account. All I've ever done before was click the little checkbox and click "Spam".

Anyway, enough is enough. All I can say to people, is be careful with your personal data because you never know who can access it.

[MistyBlue]

Actually, not concerned at all. As stated earlier, just wanted to know whihc nutjob sent such a rotten email. More than one person checked it out, nobody wants to take the chance of pissing someone off on Coth if they're going to send you hate mail packed with computer crashing viruses. Plenty of people wanted to know who sentit so as to avoid them in the future. Completely normal IMO.
Also took only about 10 minutes to find out everything I found out.
I know about fake email accounts, MSN knows more about them than I do. As does my carrier Comcast. It's amazing what they'll tell you if only you ask their live support the questions you want answered. Both are more than happy to do a full spam email check for any newly registered accounts. This way if any new email you open has been used for spam or scam purposes they'll let you know so you don't open a new account that's already blocked in a bunch of places for being a previously used short term scam address. They might not tell you who used it, but they can certainly tell if it was used at all for even a 3 minute period.
To block email accounts was easy for yahoo...it's under options right under "Spam"...there's a box asking which address you want blocked. I would have thought you'd have spent those few minutes digging around after you got the virus filled version in the first place? Instead of waiting for a safe email that just says something you didn't want to read. :confused:
As for deleting it ASAP...you certainly were quick to copy and paste it on here before deleting it. You didn't save it to Word or anything else? You certainly didn't report it to MSN Hotmail. Makes sense to report a virus filled email to it's host, doesn't it? Or report it authorities since it was filled with death threats? A saved version on Word would have accomplished that. It does seem odd that it had all the same punctuation (or lack of) that you use online all the time though, some hackers must be really good to mimic that. ;)
I also find it astounding that you received "another" email from that supposedly virus filled computer and website crashing address and opened it and read it....and replied to it...instead of just immediately deleting it or reporting it. It was only one day after you went through hours and hours of IT help and all sorts of problems trying to fix all the crashes the last supposed email from that address...just getting it fixed and yet you go right ahead and open the "second" one from the same address? People would normally assume that meant you never got one from there in the first place. Exactly like MSN has said. :)

[AnotherRound]

See, Auventura, nobody has used the eamil address before Misty tested it that much later, even as a "fake" address. If it was used as a fake address, it might not be immediately apparent who the original sender was (but you could still trace it eventually), but hotmail would still be able to fully document that the email was ever out on the airwaves with their address as a fake. Get it? It never happened! You lied! You can't make stuff up which can't technically happen, which sounds ok to ignorant people on google and then make it just be true. If you spent any time with your service people, you never would have had to google any of that. I accessed your website completely and fine immediately. It was never down for maintenance, either. Any of the problems you experienced are common on work computers, happens all the time, and its IT who blocks your access to the websites because they aren't work related, not because there are viruses. That is the standard message all IT departments put on the notice as to why the website isn't being displayed.

Any viruses you experienced didn't come from the hacker. If you don't have a firewall up which blocks people from coming onto your computer to hack into it, as you claim they did, you don't have the security to prevent a common, frequent, run of the mill virus attack which can come from anywhere. Are you saying your internet server hosting your internet site didn't have any protection from hackers hacking THEIR server? So somebody hacked your work IT department, your home computer, your internet server host, that's alot of computers to hack into and find your little account on and sabotage that one account and give you a virus and nobody else. That's alot of work and alot of passwords and alot of trouble. How'd they do that, all three (or more, probably, to really get all that done) computers? Wow! You are very speshul!

Nobody sent you the email, unless it was yourself. Nobody hates you, nobody on this board is malicous like you described. There is no one like that. Most people think you are a moron, but nobody can wish ill on another person or their animals the way you can.

[accolade]

I don't get into these things much, but I've often wondered if this poster used to have other names that she stopped using after running into other scenarios like this one? IOW's, getting caught in, um, questionable stories?

If so, could someone post or, if that is inappropriate, PM me? I like to keep track of the people who seem trustworthy and the rest.

It may not be this poster, perhaps some other nut job entirely. There seem to be lots of them on this board....maybe it's the heat?

Acco

[AnotherRound]

I don't get into these things much, but I've often wondered if this poster used to have other names that she stopped using after running into other scenarios like this one? IOW's, getting caught in, um, questionable stories?

It may not be this poster, perhaps some other nut job entirely. There seem to be lots of them on this board....

Acco

No, its this one. She created a story about her horses diyin in a fire, I can't remember what all the others were about, but the usernames were notorious as this one.

[accolade]

Uh, yes. I recalled something like that.....

That didn't take long to have verified.

Acco

[Foxtrot's]

As so often happens a new poster posts a post guaranteed to cause a row. Bunch of twaddle if I were to be asked.

[accolade]

As so often happens a new poster posts a post guaranteed to cause a row. Bunch of twaddle if I were to be asked.

If you were speaking to me, you may note that I joined in 2007? Although I may not post often, I do read quite a bit. I was not made aware that a certain post count was required before posting a query?

Acco

[Foxtrot's]

No, not you, actually. The OP. But if the hat fits, wear it :D I didn't go through the entire thread, just got a take on the general direction. No offence to you meant.

[Auventera Two]

No, its this one. She created a story about her horses diyin in a fire, I can't remember what all the others were about, but the usernames were notorious as this one.

Oh good lord. This is way over the top. The owner of that barn is a poster here on COTH. She lost her horses as well. She's the one who originally told me about this forum. You can say what you want, but the barn fire was as real as it gets, unfortunately. I am so sick of the hag crew saying this was a lie. The owner of the barn is a poster here on COTH. She can post here if she wants, but she's an infrequent poster - probably won't even see this thread.

www.hphoofcare.com/herd.html (http://www.hphoofcare.com/herd.html)

How strange that I would bother to add an "In Rememberance" section for those 3 we lost in a fire, hu? You know, if it was just a lie.

You people are unbelievable.