AHHA for Thoroughbred mares?

[JCIbarra]

I'm interested in hearing about experiences with this registry for TB's. What type do they prefer? Are hunter type mares well received for breeding approvals? If you have a TB mare who is approved with them - I'd love to see a photo so I can get an idea of what they prefer to see.

[TKR]

I don't think the AHHA really wants Thoroughbred mares. They have talked about it at length -- they wish to keep their damline "pure" in some sense with the pure Holsteiners (which I think really limits their gene pool, which is already fairly small). However, they do approve Thoroughbred mares -- my guess would be they like the very jumper or very dressage type more than hunter, but I can't say that for sure. I know they got in a snit because some Thoroughbred mares outscored some Holsteiner mares a few years back at their inspections. However, you have to judge the quality of the mare, regardless, so those "old style" mares apparently weren't cutting it with the judges. They are an interesting group, but seem very divided and divisive about their registry -- IMO.
PennyG

[raffey1]

I am glad you asked the question-- I am currently working on an article for the association on this topic but it is not done, so here is a chance to discuss it a little in a more timely fashion. The recent rule changes have made the ability for the TB mares who come with a performance history to be accepted with actually lower bonit scores than previously, with the understanding that a mare with a performance history may have a lot of wear and tear on her body fairly earned, and that should allow her to demonstrate that while her gaits and body don't look the way they might have earlier, she had earned her stripes. The mares with no performance history will have to score higher than previously. The scores are determined by totalling the points from seven categories: type, topline ,front legs, hind legs, walk, trot, and canter. My TB mare that I retired off the track as a four year old was just accepted last year and got higher gait scores than some of my Holsteiner mares have-- Tbs often have a lovely swing in their walk, and their canter can be their best gait (my mare got an 8 for canter). The elegance and femininity of a good TB mare is desired. The same gait problems that plague any horse group -- short choppy trots, dinky walks, etc, will not score well. The most common problem it seems of TB mares in the conformation area are the connection of the neck to the shoulder (frequently set on very low) and the neck/wither connection (big spikey withers with a dip in front of them), as are some leg issues (over at the knee, etc.) The issue of type is not "type" as in dressage type or hunter type so much, but type as in is this a sport horse breeding type of animal-- does she show gender expression, elegance, presence, and look like she would be a great mom for a Holsteiner! One of the highest scoring horses we have had is a TB mare my friend owns, and her picture was even featured in the Holsteiner magazine that is published in Germany-- she has gaits to die for and is drop dead gorgeous. So I am hoping all those with their terrific TB mares will know how much we are looking forward to having the chance to admire them too at inspections for AHHA.

[grayfox]

I took 2 TB mares to a AHHA inspection. It was a large inspection near me and the mares scored very well, higher then a lot of the Holsteiner mares. After that inspection I decided to never go to another AHHA inspection.

[selah]

I took 2 TB mares to a AHHA inspection. It was a large inspection near me and the mares scored very well, higher then a lot of the Holsteiner mares. After that inspection I decided to never go to another AHHA inspection.

:confused:

[JenRose]

I took 2 TB mares to a AHHA inspection. It was a large inspection near me and the mares scored very well, higher then a lot of the Holsteiner mares. After that inspection I decided to never go to another AHHA inspection.


Would you mind elaborating?

I was planning to take a TB mare (older but fancy although has no performance record) to an AHHA inspection this fall. The nearest site is 4+ hours away and I hate to make a wasted trip.

FWIW I am also taking her to an Old NA/ISR inspection about 2 hours away in early fall.

[Zlotych]

Based on previous history, the AHHA , or rather many of its members (not all) have not exactly welcomed TB and A/Q stamm mares with open arms.

[Fred]

My experience dates back a number of years, so I can't speak to how things are now with the AHHA.

I took one of my homebred TB mares to an inspection, and she was the only TB mare there.
They were very complimentary and she scored very high, MMB, and was named Reserve Champion of the inspection (her score was tied with the Holsteiner mare who was awarded Champion)

A few years later I took a sister to this mare, equally high quality, but heavily in foal. It was a different panel of judges ( I understand there had been a shift in the organization in the intervening years) and I overheard them commenting quite loudly (and dismissively) "we don't want HUNTERS".....
This mare did not score very well, and I thought the comments were quite ridiculous.

Interestingly, I took this same mare to another WB inspection very soon after, and she scored a 10 for type.
At yet another WB inspection she was the highest scoring mare of the year, scoring 9's in all categories....

Since then, despite my love for Holsteiners, and the combination of HolsteinerX TB, and the fact that I continued to breed these mares to Holsteiner stallions, I registered the offspring with other registries.


I am glad to see that the AHHA will be taking into consideration that many if not most of the TB mares being presented will have more 'wear and tear' at the time of their inspection - this was an arguement I presented to them when they last changed their boniting, without success, (or, indeed, any response whatsoever). It seemed to me, at the time, to be an anti-TB bias.

In contrast, the ISR/Old NA recognizes the importance of TB blood and seems to be very encouraging to TB mares. At the inspection in Ontario last year, the highest scoring mare was a full TB mare Always a Romance, and her foal by Contendro was the high score, Premium foal.

[Jesse'sMom]

I don't think the AHHA really wants Thoroughbred mares. They have talked about it at length -- they wish to keep their damline "pure" in some sense with the pure Holsteiners (which I think really limits their gene pool, which is already fairly small). However, they do approve Thoroughbred mares -- my guess would be they like the very jumper or very dressage type more than hunter, but I can't say that for sure. I know they got in a snit because some Thoroughbred mares outscored some Holsteiner mares a few years back at their inspections. However, you have to judge the quality of the mare, regardless, so those "old style" mares apparently weren't cutting it with the judges. They are an interesting group, but seem very divided and divisive about their registry -- IMO.
PennyG

Ditto to all the above..

[Sebastian]

Ah, what a timely thread...

I have a Hol/TB mare that I plan to register in the near future...BUT, was initially thinking that it would be a waste of time to take her to AHHA...(she's by Cicero, out of a lovely TB mare). Very much a jumper type.

Now, I'm wondering if it would be worth taking her... (I have very thick skin and won't care if anyone makes snide comments). I just don't want to bother spending all the money & time if there's not a chance she'll be accepted.

She's almost 8 years old, and has a small performance record in Eventing and Jumpers... Unfortunately, she needs a long layup for a ligament, so we're thinking of breeding her...

Here's a photo of her...
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2250143680102727866vhfMji

Would love any input you guys have...
Thanks,
Seb :)

[LisaO]

Go ahead and take her! Besides...she is half Cicero :-).

AHHA does not stand for 'anti-TB ogres'! AHHA is simply trying to improve quality and performance in the context of the horses we have in the US while at the same time trying to capitalize on the amazing success of the Holsteiner Verband's breeding strategy over many many generations.

Yes there are factions with strong (opposing) opinions who are very vocal and I think that shows more publicly in part because it is a small organization. That has never deterred me from pursuing success within the registry.

[EquusMagnificus]

The one AHHA inspection I have been to actually gave me the impression that they were quite open to TBs... :confused:

[LisaO]

They are very happy to approve high quality TBs! A good performance record can overcome some age-related issues, too.

We saw an older TB mare last year who was obviously a quality mare. She had an injury, though and simply could not demonstrate her gaits well. She was approved with very positive comments based on a combination of what the judges could see (BTW - one of the judges was from the Verband) AND her extensive performance record.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

This was some years ago now but watching one inspection I saw quite a lot of distain for the TB mares- from the American judges. The Germans in the group seemed more open. Go figure.

Saw one of the German judges get into a "discussion" with one of the Americans and some scribbling later, the 7 for trot was upgraded to an 8. (I got to see the score card later)

IMHO, sometimes I don't know that in this country, the best Holsteiner mares were imported, at least at that time, because a good mare is solid gold and they don't usually part with a good stamm line. So, at least then, I think a good TB was equal to or better then some of the Holsteiner mares I was seeing. But that's just an opinion.

Out of that inspection, a almost MMB TB mare later produced a premium colt and a MB TB mare a one-point shy of premium foal.

I guess I'd be looking for the German judges at the inspection, if they still come, because from that experience, I think they are more open to TB mares- BUT, that's just the impression I came away with at the time.

[florida foxhunter]

Unfortunately, I sold C laim to Fame's dam at 17 years old.........and her new owner took her to be approved. She was.......and got an 8 for hind legs......which she was thrilled with. After having five foals for me, she wasn't at her fittest. However, about three years ago, they seemed to still be fair about TB's (even though they only wanted the very best ones).
Ill show a photo below of her at the age of 17......after many foals!

[grayfox]

They are very happy to approve high quality TBs! A good performance record can overcome some age-related issues, too.

We saw an older TB mare last year who was obviously a quality mare. She had an injury, though and simply could not demonstrate her gaits well. She was approved with very positive comments based on a combination of what the judges could see (BTW - one of the judges was from the Verband) AND her extensive performance record.

My TB mares were approved with very good scores. I just didn't like the whole process. I thought the other registeries were easier to work with.

[ljshorses]

My TB mares were approved with very good scores. I just didn't like the whole process. I thought the other registeries were easier to work with.

I had heard many similiar stories. They don't seem to be user friendly. I have an older style Holsteiner mare who's 17yo. I had her approved RPSI last year which her foal this year and next will go, but have toyed with the idea of breeding for a Holsteiner foal and taking the foal to a Holsteiner inspection, but just don't know...may look into having her approved AHS or Dutch. I wasn't happy with the customer service i got over the phone recently, but the KWPN and AHS are always so helpful.

Such a shame though, I love Holsteiners and they almost seem like a dying breed due to their own organization.

[Sebastian]

Thanks for the input everyone. :D
Seb :)

[Maryanne Nicpon]

I don't think anyone mentioned that the breeding rules were changed and are effective this year. Now, any qualified, non-Holsteiner mares who are presented must score 46 points to be entered into the main mare book. Holsteiner mares need only score 43. I suspect that this will weed out all but the very best thoroughbred mares. I would not present a TB mare now unless she were long-legged, built uphill, and had uphill, forward, powerful gaits. Most TBs have good canters, but don't always have super walks or trots. I don't think the daisy cutting trots will be rewarded with good scores.

I have a TB mare who is a full sister of Courageous Comet. I bred her to Formula One this year, buy have my eye on a couple of Holsteiner stallions for the future. So I MAY present her this year. I haven't decided yet. As it is, I have to get five mares with foals, and a single mare to the inspection !

[raffey1]

They do have to score the higher 46 points only if they do not bring a performance record, or do not score high enough in the free jump. I free-jumped my off-the-track mare and she scored high enough to be accepted under the new rules with that. They only need 41 points if they can pass on performance or freejump.

[BC5098]

Your AHHA approved tb mare will be considered a second class citizen - regardless of her quality.. Her foals will not be considered "Real" Holsteiners because they will not have German stamm numbers - and any stallion sons will not even be eligable to be presented - much less approved. The entire line from your tb mare will have the dreaded Q stamm - forever - and all of them will be considered to be inferior based on their pedigree.

[raffey1]

I am saddened if you feel that to be true. That is the opinion of a minority of our members, some of whom have been voicing that opinion loudly enough that it seems to be truth. I have been breeding in this organization for a very long time, and know that our German Verband appreciates a terrific TB mare. The USA is full of terrific TBs, and I am very proud to have them in my breeding program, and have no shame for my Q stamm and the produce of it.

[Jesse'sMom]

If you all notice, the positive comments were for TB's who did well were past years.. they changed their rules & their books & scores & such starting this year 2009 all new rules, all new scoring, all new books,etc.. now there are all sorts of books and all sorts of rules and colored papers etc...
Lets see what TB's do THIS season & in the future, as I too heard they really dont want TB's anymore & will not be scoring them as well & those foals will not get the best papers available.

Even their stallion book, years past were big & thick.. this is the smallest one I have seen so far..

I think AHHA has become less "user friendly" and I know several die hard AHHA people who all changed to other registries and many many who still bred to AHHA reg/approved stallions but opted to register with GOV or OLD NA.

here's there rule book, mares starts with page 3 and you'll notice it's all starting with 2009 new rules, ,etc...
http://www.holsteiner.com/BreedingRules/2009%20Breeders%20Rules.pdf

[BC5098]

Why would you take a tb mare to a AHHA inspection when you know going in - that any colt she produces CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED AS A STALLION. If that does not scream second class to you - what does? What difference does it make what color the papers are, or what book she goes in - her sons are not good enough to be considered as HOL stallions because their mother was a tb.

And it is not just a few members that are talking about getting rid of all of the non HOL mares - it is the majority of the BOD. The German judges may admire some of the NA tb mares as nice horses - but ask them if their offspring are real Holsteiners, or if the colts should be stallions, and the answer is no.

But meanwhile the tb mare owners, and the mare owners that have other warmblood mares, are welcome to be a cash cow for the AHHA stallion owners, just send in the money - which they will happily take. Most of these stallions stand in more than one registry - if you have your heart set on breeding your tb mare to a HOL stallion, why not take the foal to one of the other registries, like GOV or RPSI - one which will think your horses is a first class citizen?