Why can't people "get" it?

[SteppinEasy]

Why does it seem that every human being on the planet except me considers animals to be disposable?

As many here know, I'm currently looking for work. Having taught overseas before (China and Pakistan), I have a number of friends involved with organizations that sponsor English teaching programs. When I run into any of these friends, they invariably offer to help me get into their favorite country's teacher pipeline. Offers I invariably appreciate and look into. And offers I have so far turned down because they wouldn't allow me to bring my dog or horses.

I just got off the phone with one of these friends, who felt the need to call and argue with me about the relative importance of animals versus teaching rural children in China how to speak English. Here's a bit of our exchange:

Friend: "Just get rid of the animals; all they do is complicate your life, anyway."

Me (punctuated by a heavy sigh): "The animals are family. I don't want to get rid of them."

Friend: "But you can always get another pet or two once you're there!":no:

I've had some version of this conversation more times than I can count. WHY do people see the world this way???? The dog in question was my now-deceased mother's service dog and saved her life countless times. One of the horses has "rescued" me from serious injury and/or death twice. As much as I love horses and dogs in general, I REALLY love these horses and this dog. And one animal certainly isn't interchangeable with another!

I tried to tell this friend that her suggestion was akin to me saying, "Leave Aunt Ethel behind; you can pick up another old lady when you get there."

For the life of me, I don't understand why people view animals this way. I know and accept that animals are "just" pets and/or working partners for some, but when I say, "They're family," why is that so insanely difficult to comprehend? Or to shake their heads in confusion but just drop it?

Why do so many people feel the need to attach a negative judgement to my position? All I want is for them to stop trying to convince me it's "wrong" to consider my animals family. Heavens, it's not like I'm asking them to start sending my menagerie wedding invitations or birthday cards--though the latter would be much appreciated if money were enclosed!:winkgrin:

[Lori B]

I would buy a billboard to echo your sentiments, but I spent that money on rent differential for the 20 years post-college when I had to have the always more expensive pets-allowed apartment for me and my cats.

I hear you. Amen.

And Fugly does too:

http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/06/definitely-best-of-craigslist.html

[cnvh]

I've never been in a position of having to consider leaving the country, but if it meant giving up my animals, nope-- don't think I could do it. If it was temporary (<6 months), maybe... but permanently? No way.

Actually I probably COULD re-home my horse... a friend of mine adores him and also rides him occasionally; I know he'd be well-cared for. But our dog and cats-- they are definitely our children. If we lost our house and our only choice was a no-pets apartment or living out of our car, I would choose the car and critters in a heartbeat, no hesitation whatsoever.

Unfortunately there are way, WAY too many people out there who don't see animals that way though... look at the rise in abandoned animals with the economic crisis. It's beyond sad... frankly I think it's disgusting. But to a lot of people, they're just property, like a car or a sofa. It is what it is. :(

[Saidapal]

Only an animal lover/horse person will ever really understand. It amazes me how people move to a no pets apartment and just throw their dogs/cats in the pound or abandon them on the side of the road. Unless I could take my pets with me I wouldn't move. Just that simple.

I understand. Others on this board will understand. The ones who find animals disposal will NEVER understand.

[Jaegermonster]

I'm with you. I have made numerous sacrifices over the years to keep my animals, esp after my divorce when I got custody of the two dogs, two cats and of course my horse.
I lived on oatmeal and bologna for a year in order to afford my horse's board and the extra monthly fee on my apt for my animals.
I wish I had a dollar for every person who told me how much easier my life would be and i should get rid of my animals til I got back on my feet. I would not have been able to sleep at night wondering what happened to them.

[katarine]

Look, it's just our way as a society. Throw it away.

Got a call from a former riding lesson client of a 2 years or so ago... Client I TOLD ...Do Not Buy Any Horses for the girls, Period...for at least a year. Let's see if they really ARE into this. Let's do lessons, fun shows, etc, see what they want to do with this, if it's not me, that's fine, if it's jumping I'll find you an english instructor, etc.. but PLEASE- don't go buyin' no horses.

FF a few months; one gaited pony, one retired gimpy hunter pony, one mini, one Appy. they hire a great girl, she rides and care-takes. Girls never ride. They won't ride w/o me there to coach...so riding comes only in fits and starts...

FF to last night...girls don't want 'em, we don't want 'em, we're headed to the beach. Can you help? Maybe, what's your timeline?

Mid July.

:no::no::no::no::no::no:

anywho...

OP, I think you are asking the world to bend to your whims. If you are going to another country, you are willing to put your pet through a lengthy quarantine to do so, with or w/o the host school's support. I'm assuming it's gov sponsored housing? Or why would they even know about your pets? So, while I get your frustration w/ your friends, I don't get the annoyance with the rules of 'the game'.

[SteppinEasy]

OP, I think you are asking the world to bend to your whims. If you are going to another country, you are willing to put your pet through a lengthy quarantine to do so, with or w/o the host school's support. I'm assuming it's gov sponsored housing? Or why would they even know about your pets? So, while I get your frustration w/ your friends, I don't get the annoyance with the rules of 'the game'.


Please reread my post. NEVER did I say I planned on or even wanted to move to another county. Only that because I have done it before, friends are contacting me with offers. Offers that again, I have investigated and turned down because of the restrictions of not being able to take my animals with me (or I suppose I should have explicitly said, I'm NOT willing to put them through the tramua of long quarantines).

Just in case someone still hasn't understood my point, I'm seeking employment here in the US. If anyone knows of any openings for an over-educated college administrator/English professor/theoretical linguist who just happens to have experience teaching ESL overseas AND who insists on bringing her brood of furry fiends along, feel free to PM me!

[greysandbays]

Geez, girls, don't be screwing those halos on quite so tight.

Ya never know when fate might yank it right off.

[katarine]

When I run into any of these friends, they invariably offer to help me get into their favorite country's teacher pipeline. Offers I invariably appreciate and look into. And offers I have so far turned down because they wouldn't allow me to bring my dog or horses.

Colored me confused b/c on the one hand, it's the hideous quarantine....so you aren't interested anyway...but you look into it...because 'they' won't allow it?

so...is it 'them' not allowing it, or the quarantine...or if you are seeking employment IN the US, period, why does a quarantine matter...because you are NOT in any way seeking employment beyond these walls?

That's the loop you caught me in, sister. Carry on!

[Lori B]

greysandbays, it's not a halo, it's a choice. Once I chose to adopt my animals, they weren't expendable for what amounts to whims or convenience. I understand full well that if my life is financially wrecked or I become seriously ill, that I could be compelled to make some tough choices.

But barring those awful possibilities, they are my responsibility. (see katarine's post about the children / riding students acquiring horses / ponies, and now being ready to be quit of them a year or so later. Jeeebus.)

OP is complaining about the presumption that animals are expendable and can be added or subtracted from one's life to suit a whim or a move or a lifestyle change.

People are welcome to NOT have animals too, of course. But either way, be prepared to take responsibility.

[BuddyRoo]

Steppin-

I spent some time overseas starting a business (and teaching).

I've been in the market for a new job and I keep finding that most offers involve long stretches of overseas time and I'm turning them down now for the same reasons. My dog. My horses. My house.

When I worked overseas before things were different. Now I'm just not that interested.

I hear what you're saying and I've dealt with the comments too. Especially in this market--where being offered the big bucks probably *ought* to be enough to leave the critters behind at least for awhile--to my friends. But it's just not going to work for me now.

I get it.

[dacasodivine]

My sister regularly asks my family to come visit her for a weekend. We have gone and stayed over night and gone back the next morning and I worried then. She wants us to come and stay the whole weekend - Fri thru Sun. I have horses, dogs, cats (those are my boys') and chickens and she says they'll be fine for a couple days!

[greysandbays]

greysandbays, it's not a halo, it's a choice. Once I chose to adopt my animals, they weren't expendable for what amounts to whims or convenience. I understand full well that if my life is financially wrecked or I become seriously ill, that I could be compelled to make some tough choices.

[snip]

OP is complaining about the presumption that animals are expendable and can be added or subtracted from one's life to suit a whim or a move or a lifestyle change.

People are welcome to NOT have animals too, of course. But either way, be prepared to take responsibility.

No, the "choice" is to make potentially foolish decisions and commitments that could result in finanacial wreckage or ill health. The "screwing on the halo" is thinking that for you making that choice, your are special and superior to people who make the "tough choices" before it comes to financial wreckage or illness.

Many people do not consider animals to be The Ark Of The Covenant that must be lugged all over the desert in order to be assured of Divine Approval. There are acceptable and unacceptable means in order to not do that, but making that choice isn't a guarantee of irresponsibility.

[equusus]

I get it, too. I would never in a million years consider leaving my pets behind anywhere. For anything. They are my family. Period.

However, because your animals are your passion, don't let yourself get upset at your friends because it is not their passion. To your friend, teaching Africans English is just as important to her as your pets are to you. Everyone is different. Makes the world go around.

Frustrating, absolutely. Just like having different charities wanting donations. I tell them that I already donate to my specific animal rescue charities. But THEIR charity is so much more important! To them maybe, but not to me. Same idea.

[avezan]

Yup. I hear you. I moved from VA to TX back to VA. Some friends were astounded that I brought my horses along for the journey. "Couldn't you have just gotten new horses in TX?" was the response. I like the Aunt Edna comment. I think I said something along those lines. Steppin, I'm a prof too (hence the moves, postdoc, etc.) and where I am now is VERY horse friendly! Feel free to send a PM.

[MistyBlue]

My sister regularly asks my family to come visit her for a weekend. We have gone and stayed over night and gone back the next morning and I worried then. She wants us to come and stay the whole weekend - Fri thru Sun. I have horses, dogs, cats (those are my boys') and chickens and she says they'll be fine for a couple days!


Yabbut...animals in cases like this are wonderful!
We don't have to go visit family out of state for that reason. Not that we dislike those family members...but they're not the type we want to spend a buttload of time with and definitely not in their areas. (Naples, FL or Omaha NE, etc) There's nothing to do where they are but shop, shop, beach (fl obviously) and shop some more and that's all they like to to. For hubby and I malls are as gosh-awful to us as a barn is to them. We both hate shopping unless it's Tractor Supply or Home Depot, LOL! We're more than happy to have them here. They normally just don't want to hang out in The Woods as they call our area.
My entire family except for a couple cousins are in state, but my family is ridiculously large. And the animals give us an excuse to miss many of the parties and crap they constantly host. From selling crappy costume jewelry to countless recitals to a billion birthday parties. In an average month we get invitations to at least 10 things. Seriously...ugh!
My niece who has horses misses the same things for the same reason and another niece is considering getting chickens and sheep just to avoid the billion family things, LOL!

[Chardavej]

I love my animals, my Italian Greyhound is 14 years old (had him since he was a 8 weeks old) and he has had two cancer surgeries and needs a third (vet says no more, we need to put him down instead of a third surgery) and I have a blind gelding and a 28 year old mare with heaves and a gimpy hip (got her from a neglectful situation as a rack of bones that was still being ridden HARD, $450.00 later and she's been a crotchity old pasture puff here for two years now) plus three other healthly "saleable" horses. So you can't say I'm not a caring mom.

BUT if I had a choice to have a roof over my head and no animals or live in my car and have animals I am sorry I will put Dusty, Dolly and Guedo down, sell the other horses and live in a home. Sorry. They can find other homes with someone who loves them just as much as I do (or maybe not, you just don't know) and putting the sick/older ones down in NOT a terrible ending. They would be groomed, loved, lots of treats and hand grazed and then peacefully put down.

I think it is unrealistic to think otherwise. Sorry. I love my animals with all my heart (I just had to put down my little old blind min-pin and that absolutely ripped my heart out!) I will be devistated and cry and scream like a banshee but it would be the best thing to do for me and possibly for them too.

I think living a crappy life in a car to keep your animals is unrealistic and not admirable at all. It's just my opinion and probably differs from most people on this board.

[Reynard Ridge]

Look, people who view animals as animals are never going to wrap their heads around the concept of "animals as surrogate family."

They think you're wack for passing up good opportunities because you won't give up your dog and you think they're wack for not understanding that you view your dog as "family."

That's just the way it's going to be. Accept it and move on.

[LostFarmer]

I love my animals, my Italian Greyhound is 14 years old (had him since he was a 8 weeks old) and he has had two cancer surgeries and needs a third (vet says no more, we need to put him down instead of a third surgery) and I have a blind gelding and a 28 year old mare with heaves and a gimpy hip (got her from a neglectful situation as a rack of bones that was still being ridden HARD, $450.00 later and she's been a crotchity old pasture puff here for two years now) plus three other healthly "saleable" horses. So you can't say I'm not a caring mom.

BUT if I had a choice to have a roof over my head and no animals or live in my car and have animals I am sorry I will put Dusty, Dolly and Guedo down, sell the other horses and live in a home. Sorry. They can find other homes with someone who loves them just as much as I do (or maybe not, you just don't know) and putting the sick/older ones down in NOT a terrible ending. They would be groomed, loved, lots of treats and hand grazed and then peacefully put down.

I think it is unrealistic to think otherwise. Sorry. I love my animals with all my heart (I just had to put down my little old blind min-pin and that absolutely ripped my heart out!) I will be devistated and cry and scream like a banshee but it would be the best thing to do for me and possibly for them too.

I think living a crappy life in a car to keep your animals is unrealistic and not admirable at all. It's just my opinion and probably differs from most people on this board.

AMEN to that. Well put.

[magnolia73]

If your career goal is to teach in foreign countries you may need to reconsider keeping pets or reconsider your career. It's not wrong to put your pets first, but why bother inquiring about overseas jobs?

That said, people leave their families, children, spouses and pets behind to work overseas- look at our military. There are good people who make that hard decision every day. They are not jerks or irresponsible, they are just willing to put that aspect of their lives on hold.

[JSwan]

I agree with Magnolia.

No one wants to leave their family behind - but sometimes the job requires it. Like servicemembers or associated civilian personnel.

But if your friends are pointing out opportunities for you overseas - and you don't want to take them - don't.

Don't explain, don't excuse.

It's really none of their business. Your personal choices are just that. Your choices. If they don't respect your choices.. they're not your friends.

Good luck on your job search. :)

[MistyBlue]

Agree with Chardavej...same here for me.

However I will temper that with:
If the decision is not a roof over my head or living in a car scenerio I would be more inclined to just keep an eye out for jobs or homes in areas that would better be able to keep me and my pets together. I would turn down a really good job for a good job to keep the animals together if possible...or something along those lines.
But, if it came between my human family and my 4 legged family...human one comes first always. Although these days my husband would be the one to fight that...he's even worse with the animals than I am. :winkgrin:
Before moving here to bring the horses home we were both perfectly happy in our last home and had only been there a short time. It was the husband insisting that we needed to find a home with acreage to bring our mare home, because he thought it was awful that he could only see her on weekends due to his work schedule. :D

[Maya01]

Pfffft I'd take animals over teaching children any day! Tell your friends to find some animal-less bimbos to take the jobs and that if they don't understand, tell them its like losing your shadow XP

Some people are such insensitive...creatures :winkgrin:

[Hampton Bay]

Well, given that one of my neighbors still thinks that WOMEN are property and that a woman has no right to speak to him (she should send a man to do it), then I am not surprised some of your friends think of animals as things.

Not that I agree with it, it just isn't that surprising.

[SteppinEasy]

Thanks everyone, I just really needed to vent to someone (or multiple someones, lol) who understood.

For the record, since neither what seemed to me like a perfectly comprehensible original statement, nor what seemed to me to be an even more crystal clear reiteration, apparently were...I am not now, or have I been in the past decade, looking for jobs overseas. I have no desire to work overseas now or in the next decade. It is not a career goal. It is not a "loop" that I've been caught in...:lol: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It was only brought up as the context for my frustration. Because of my PRIOR (NOT now, not in the foreseeable future) experience teaching overseas, I have tons of friends who are involved with organizations that sponsor these teaching programs (If anyone's looking for this type of job, I can hook you up in a heartbeat!:yes:).

When those friends essentially hunt me down and insist that I "at least go look" at job descriptions, it seems like the path of both friendship and least resistance to nod, smile and then actually LOOK at the job. Not applying for, not investigating to the nth degree, just...looking. Because my friends asked me to.

I also dearly appreciate the fact that my friends are trying to look out for me, albeit not necessarily the way they're going about it or the particular jobs they're finding. If I were going overseas (which I am NOT) I would not expect any country to change its customs rules, etc. for me. If I were going, that is. Which I am NOT.

And did I mention I'm NOT going overseas?:lol:

Sheesh. And Sheesh again.;)

I also really appreciate the good wishes here on my job search and related frustrations! I'm going to go hug my dog, now. :D

[dacasodivine]

MistyBlue, this sister once lined up a friend of hers to come watch my animals. This person was not a horse person. She thought she had solved my problem for me.

[katarine]

So you are overeducated to the point you can't write your way out of a paper bag, then snarky on top when a reader gets confused and asks for clarification? Excuse me? I struck a nerve I wasn't going for, lady. I was just confused. Apparently this is a crime in your book?

Yeah, well....good luck finding a job. I certainly hope everyone you encounter understands you perfectly every moment of every day and in every single way. Otherwise, all bets are off. :confused:

[scrtwh]

Why does it seem that every human being on the planet except me considers animals to be disposable?

As many here know, I'm currently looking for work. Having taught overseas before (China and Pakistan), I have a number of friends involved with organizations that sponsor English teaching programs. When I run into any of these friends, they invariably offer to help me get into their favorite country's teacher pipeline. Offers I invariably appreciate and look into. And offers I have so far turned down because they wouldn't allow me to bring my dog or horses.

I just got off the phone with one of these friends, who felt the need to call and argue with me about the relative importance of animals versus teaching rural children in China how to speak English. Here's a bit of our exchange:

Friend: "Just get rid of the animals; all they do is complicate your life, anyway."

Me (punctuated by a heavy sigh): "The animals are family. I don't want to get rid of them."

Friend: "But you can always get another pet or two once you're there!":no:

I've had some version of this conversation more times than I can count. WHY do people see the world this way???? The dog in question was my now-deceased mother's service dog and saved her life countless times. One of the horses has "rescued" me from serious injury and/or death twice. As much as I love horses and dogs in general, I REALLY love these horses and this dog. And one animal certainly isn't interchangeable with another!

I tried to tell this friend that her suggestion was akin to me saying, "Leave Aunt Ethel behind; you can pick up another old lady when you get there."

For the life of me, I don't understand why people view animals this way. I know and accept that animals are "just" pets and/or working partners for some, but when I say, "They're family," why is that so insanely difficult to comprehend? Or to shake their heads in confusion but just drop it?

Why do so many people feel the need to attach a negative judgement to my position? All I want is for them to stop trying to convince me it's "wrong" to consider my animals family. Heavens, it's not like I'm asking them to start sending my menagerie wedding invitations or birthday cards--though the latter would be much appreciated if money were enclosed!:winkgrin:


Well, I think you're on the right forum for kindred spirits ... We move quite often, due to my husbands job, and the "crew" comes with us. We look at barn and land situation before the actual house. Sad ... but true.

[saultgirl]

Because they don't have to "get" it. Everyone has their own priorities.

[Lori B]

Of course they do, saultgirl, but OP is talking about being hassled by 'friends' about HER priorities. She's not asking them to adopt her values, she's asking to have her own values respected.

And come to think of it, if 'friends' can't figure this out, they aren't such good friends, are they?

[arabhorse2]

I don't "get it" why some people think children are all that and a bag of Cheetos, and want a whole houseful of 'em. However, I'd probably be run out of town on a rail if I suggested their parents get rid of them for a job. After all, they can always make more, right? :lol:

OP, your first post on the thread was confusing. You spoke about jobs overseas. If they weren't germane to the story, why were they brought up in the first place? Seriously, it wasn't anyone's reading comprehension that was lacking, it was your communication skills.

In any case, I'm smack dab in the middle of this, opinion wise. I love my animals very much. However, I won't financially devastate myself to keep them. The word "hoarder" would come far too close to describing me, if I let that happen.

My whole family doesn't understand my horse obsession. I don't understand their football obsession. We've learned not to roll our eyes and express exasperation at each other, just because we love different things.

I have plenty of non-horsey friends. They don't "get it" about the animal thing, but they also know that my getting rid of them as long as I'm able to care for them is non negotiable.

I see both sides of the argument. I'm sure your friends have something you don't "get it" about, too.

Good luck with your job search. These economic times are making it difficult for everyone job hunting.

[SteppinEasy]

So you are overeducated to the point you can't write your way out of a paper bag, then snarky on top when a reader gets confused and asks for clarification? Excuse me? I struck a nerve I wasn't going for, lady. I was just confused. Apparently this is a crime in your book?

Yeah, well....good luck finding a job. I certainly hope everyone you encounter understands you perfectly every moment of every day and in every single way. Otherwise, all bets are off. :confused:

My last response to you katarine, since we've had issues before...confusion is often eliminated when people just s-l-o-w down and actually read the posts as written rather than jumping to erroneous conclusions from the get-go.

And thanks for the well-wishes, grudging as they are. My vitae (which includes over four single-spaced pages of publications ranging from academic articles to novels and short stories) and I are on the job market because I had to leave work to take care of my dying mother during the last year and a half of her life. Because of the way our contracts are written, faculty members are not eligible for unemployment.

I've been blessed that my writing skills are valued enough in the real world to help me pay the bills through royalties and freelance jobs. Now to find something that offers benefits and some more stability...the dog and horses like to eat, too.;)

[Trixie]

My last response to you katarine, since we've had issues before...confusion is often eliminated when people just s-l-o-w down and actually read the posts as written rather than jumping to erroneous conclusions from the get-go.

Sorry, OP, but this came from your failure to communicate effectively.

As many here know, I'm currently looking for work.

Offers I invariably appreciate and look into.

You say right here that you were looking into the offers, which generally indicates to people that you were at least considering the jobs in another country. You could’ve simply clarified that by saying that you look into them to please your friends but had no intention of taking one of these jobs, but instead, you got snippy about everyone else’s reading comprehension. Yet, there's really nothing in the OP that said you weren't planning to go - only that you've turned the jobs down because you can't bring your pets.

I certainly see your point, but you were absolutely not clear about the situation. Also – just because a choice is correct for you (why can’t anyone but me) does not make it correct for others. I wouldn’t presume to judge others for their choices or viewpoints; I’d simply say thank you to the friends, but not interested. They don't have to "get it."

[thatmoody]

If you went into academia, I can understand why they would expect you would be open to moving - the typical model for academic employment is to move as far away from your home curricula as possible. I don't LIKE that model (I'm struggling with it myself) but it's the norm. You're SUPPOSED to be thrilled with their idea :D, you know.

Take it in stride - they don't have to "get it." If you're comfortable living with your own model for academic employment you won't feel as pressured. I am currently unemployed and writing my dissertation (it IS possible to receive unemployment as a faculty member, btw - you just have to have the cooperation of your department and think creatively).

Everyone KNOWS in my department that I would like to remain in the area - I have a child and custody issues that make moving difficult. So it will take me longer to find a job, but I'm comfortable with my job search model, for now at least.

[katarine]

If we've had issues in the past, I've forgotten them. I didn't come into this thread looking for an issue, far from it.

Your OP was confusing. That's all.

Good luck.

[Threebars]

Is the incredible frustration 'we' can feel when we hear the phrase "Just get another one" and treat our furry family members as disposable as paper napkins. I have two furballs - one is nearly 10 and the other only 4, and god forbid if I ever reached the place in my life where they could NOT come with me (utter ruin - living on the streets). They are my children and where I go, they go. 'We' have been in the position of relying on food banks for their generocity, and .99 boxes of walmat cat food (and food banks DO take pet food to distribute to destitute pet owners, so if you do drop off supplies, even the 99 cent stuff will be well received) but moving considerations Always include the girls.

Even though right now I want to kill one of them who has the 'crazies' - run through the house, cry, jump on my lap for two seconds, cry and run...

[springer]

I hear ya, Steppin Easy. I've been hearing that all my life from my family. My animals "complicate" my life and tie me down, and even this:- "No MAN will put up with all your animals!" Get rid of them! I did however end up meeting and marrying a man who loves them as much as I do, much to their surprise. Now that they know there is someone else on the planet like me, they seem to be more accepting of my lifestyle. HA
I must be a freak though, as I cannot understand why people keep popping out useless kids (sometimes even on purpose), which I mostly find to be selfish and obnoxious. I think I missed out on the mommy gene, but I sure am glad!

[wendy]

However, because your animals are your passion, don't let yourself get upset at your friends because it is not their passion. To your friend, teaching Africans English is just as important to her as your pets are to you. Everyone is different. Makes the world go around.
yeah, but the animals you own aren't disposable just because it's not your "passion". If you choose to get them you have to take care of them, and discarding them is just WRONG regardless of what your passion is. If you have a personal life disaster, rehoming might have to happen, yes, but most pets who are thrown away like garbage aren't thrown away for very good reasons.

[Trixie]

yeah, but the animals you own aren't disposable just because it's not your "passion". If you choose to get them you have to take care of them, and discarding them is just WRONG regardless of what your passion is. If you have a personal life disaster, rehoming might have to happen, yes, but most pets who are thrown away like garbage aren't thrown away for very good reasons.

So, um, should no one EVER sell a horse?

Should no member of the military EVER have a pet?

Is any kind of rehoming “throwing them away”?

I would also make the arguement that a good home for a while is sometimes better than no place for an animal to go at all. Not that I'm advocating throwing your pets away, mind you, but I'm perfectly aware that every once in a while, sometimes life changes.

[springer]

So, um, should no one EVER sell a horse?

Should no member of the military EVER have a pet?

Is any kind of rehoming “throwing them away”?

I would also make the arguement that a good home for a while is sometimes better than no place for an animal to go at all. Not that I'm advocating throwing your pets away, mind you, but I'm perfectly aware that every once in a while, sometimes life changes.

Having kids isn't always convenient either, but people don't generally dispose of them. I think the OP is talking about an attitude here. And no, I don't believe people in the military should have animals, unless they are fully prepared to take them along when they move. That is a case where you KNOW there is a possibility your animals won't be able to come with you (overseas deployment for instance) so therefore those people should think long and hard before adopting a pet. And another gripe: (I'm on a roll here :) ) the people who adopt a pet on a whim (because their brat kid wants a puppy!) and then, when the kid gets tired of the puppy because it has grown up and become a dog, well, BUH BYE, it's just a dog. I've seen that case a million times.

[arabhorse2]

Hmm, what about the dog whose owners were both killed in a vehicle accident, and for whatever reasons, none of their four adult children can take the animal?

This is a very real scenario, because I was contacted about this dog.

He's an 8 y/o, black, neutered Great Dane male. I thought he might possibly make a good companion for my 5 y/o female Dane. Unfortunately, he wanted no part of her, and later I found out that he's a known biter. That in itself is a deal breaker for me.

He's still in the home where he was raised, but the adult children only visit/feed him once a day. What a sad, lonely existence for that old boy!

I suggested euthing him, but was met with shocked indignation. Trying to explain it would be kinder to him rather than the life he's forced to lead now, didn't seem to register with anyone.

I'd rather euth my oldsters, regardless of species, than send them to a shelter where they may or may not find another home.

I don't agree that animals are "disposable", but I also don't agree that you have to keep them until either you or they are dead. If that was the case, none of us would have any pets.

[wendy]

rehoming is certainly acceptable and GOOD if it betters the life of the animal. Unfortunately most people throw away their pets simply to better their lives and the life of the animal gets worse. Much worse. Worked at a high-kill shelter for a period of time and well, no animal I've ever owned is ever going into a shelter like that one. They'd be better off dead from a gunshot from me.
I'm not sure how I feel about selling horses. They don't seem to get as attached to particular people/places the way dogs and cats do; and many get sold on to better places.

[Chardavej]

Having kids isn't always convenient either, but people don't generally dispose of them.

Oh My God, please tell me you are NOT comparing children to animals?? Of course no one would dispose of children, I mean WTF, big difference between a horse and a child. I just have to roll my eyes at that comment. I am sorry but that is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while.

yeah, but the animals you own aren't disposable just because it's not your "passion". If you choose to get them you have to take care of them, and discarding them is just WRONG regardless of what your passion is. If you have a personal life disaster, rehoming might have to happen, yes, but most pets who are thrown away like garbage aren't thrown away for very good reasons.

That's a pretty asinine statement. Just because someone sells a horse or another animal, no matter what their reason is, is not "disposing" or "throwing them away like garbage". I have never thought when I have bought an animal the owner was "disposing" of them nor when I sold one have I thought I was "throwing them away like garbage." Selling or rehoming isn't as dramatic as you are making it sound.

They are my children and where I go, they go. 'We' have been in the position of relying on food banks for their generocity, and .99 boxes of walmat cat food (and food banks DO take pet food to distribute to destitute pet owners, so if you do drop off supplies, even the 99 cent stuff will be well received) but moving considerations Always include the girls.

I am very sorry you found yourself in such a finacially stressful situation. Now you don't state if at this time in your life if you have a horse (which I don't think you did) you only mention two cats, (or two furr balls, I know at least one is a cat and I assume the other is too but a furr ball could also be a horse) which I have no problem with the cats since they live in the home with you and are certainly cheaper than a horse to feed and keep, but if you DID have a horse, paying board and feed and also eating from a food bank taking food from other families so you can keep your horse I have a SERIOUS issue with. You should NOT own a horse and have to rely on a food bank to feed yourself. Your priorities need to be in order and the horse needs to go on down the road to someone who can afford to feed and care for it and themselves.

[Trevelyan96]

Had a discussion with vet yesterday that brought this home to me. I've been looking for a chiro for Rico for over 2 years. She asked me what was at the top of my wish list for him, and looked surprised when I said "I want him to be comfortable!" She said that she is generally the 'last resort' for people before their horses go to auction or sale barn, and I realized that it was important for me to drive the point home to her that, whether he's rideable or not, he's with me for life. Its not that I haven't sold horses before, it was generally because they were not a good fit with our family or happy in their situation, and I tried to make sure they went to appropriate homes. I feel as though I failed one of them, as I was totally lied to by the person I sold her to, but I'm still trying to follow up and locate that one.

I really think people just don't understand or have the proper sense of responsibility when they bring an animal into their lives. We are, in essence, making choices for them over which they have no control, playing God with their lives, yet people seem to think that they owe nothing to the animal, as if its an inanimate object without life or feeling of its own that deserves respect and care. Its this type of childish, thoughtless, selfishness that makes me like animals more than people.

[springer]

[QUOTE=Chardavej;4155934]Oh My God, please tell me you are NOT comparing children to animals?? Of course no one would dispose of children, I mean WTF, big difference between a horse and a child. I just have to roll my eyes at that comment. I am sorry but that is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a while.


Uh, yeah, actually I am. Although in my mind there really is no comparison. Animals are wonderful, innocent, trusting creatures whose love is unconditional and children are the spawn of the devil (just kidding, kind of) IMO disposing of your animal when you have no more use for it is no better than doing the same to a child. Sorry, just my opinion- like it or not.

[magnolia73]

And no, I don't believe people in the military should have animals, unless they are fully prepared to take them along when they move.

There are really nice organizations that help out military with their pets. Here is one:
http://www.operationnoblefoster.org/

Thank god that men and women are willing to volunteer to sign up for our military and look out for us. It might not be ideal for them to have to scramble to find a home for their pet, but I can't think of a more stressful lifestyle in which a beloved pet can provide some joy.

I subscribe to an animal list serve and have read some scathing judgey emails from people about families making decisions to surrender pets. Sometimes the money isn't there for food, meds or surgery for an animal and someone has to make a hard decision. Sometimes it isn't in favor of the animal. And.... sometimes the animal ends up in a better home (heidi cat & pete, you are welcome!)

To the OP, I did not read beyond your first post. Good luck with your job search. I can see a lot of reasons to not want to go to China or Africa that have nothing to do with giving up pets. Sorry your friends are so pushy and opinionated.


It is great that people help animals and put them first, but it doesn't make you a martyr or a superior person. It also doesn't mean that other people are asses if they don't keep your standards. We all have our causes and beliefs.

[greysandbays]

Animals are wonderful, innocent, trusting creatures whose love is unconditional...

No, they are not. They are creatures of instinct, habit, and occasional ill temper. Their "love" (such as it is) is entirely "conditional". To plaster them with sainthood to make the human feel special does them a great disservice.

[Trixie]

I’m not suggesting that animals are disposable. Ours are all here for life. I didn’t get animals until I was sure I could provide for them.

For every person who was living on assistance for a short period and kept a few small domestic animals, there are a few others like a recent poster who lived on government assistance while keeping two horses on a small farm. In these cases, it’s not being a steward of those animals. There are people that actually need that assistance to survive, not to keep a luxury animal for one’s own AMUSEMENT.

My sister is an officer in the US Army, and is married to another officer. They rarely deploy at the same time. Her rescued animals were a wonderful comfort for her when she was stateside and her husband was deployed. I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that they were well cared for, although there were times when she had to make alternative arrangements for them. In all but one case, the arrangements were temporary – for instance, for a few months one year her cat stayed with another officer.

The only time she’s ever rehomed a pet was when she was moving across the country and could not figure out a logical and humane way to transport two chickens (free range happy livestock) from high altitude Colorado to North Carolina. So she gave them to another good home. Does that make her a bad person for “disposing” of two of her animals while caring for the rest?

For the record - my sister has PTSD from several tours in a war zone. Having the pets in the house when she was there alone made it easier for her to sleep.

Tell me, springer, why YOU think that you're qualified to tell her that she shouldn’t have pets. I’m sure not going to judge her decisions when she's provided those animals with nothing but good care.

I recognize that here we’re talking about animals that are being dropped at a pound, but I refuse to believe that it’s inherently AWFUL HORRIBLE BAD EVIL to rehome a pet if there’s a valid reason and the animal is going to a known good situation, as some of these posts would lead you to believe.

[What's Up]

I love my animals and because I have always been fairly lucky (worked hard too but the reality is there is always an element of luck) I have been able to keep my animals with me forever (all but one that I had to rehome because he was a rescue we rehabbed that could never live with other dogs and I had to find him another living situation before he killed one of my other animals), but I think it is relatively niave to condem people that have had to rehome or even abandon animals (for whatever the reason). I choose to believe that few people would make these decisions out of more than desparation and rather than condeming them we should work towards having more viable options available to turn an animal in ... that is really the only way to prevent "dumping" ... and fundamental to that is to quit being judgemental ... because even though I have worked with a local rescue organization ... served as a foster home for 12 dogs and kept 3 of them over the last 8 years ... when I went back to them to turn over the dog that we could not keep from attacking other dogs after taking him to the vet, fixing the other dogs after 2 fights, building him his own space and taking him to University Behavior Specialist ... they made me feel like we were terrible for giving him up and not continuing to try (we had tried for 2 years) ... and if that is what I got from people I had worked with over an incurable behavior issue I can't imagine how bad people make when you feel when you drop off a pet you can't afford anymore. And reality is I love my animals but if it came down to feeding the dogs, or horses, or anything else or my kid ... my kid would win ... now I hope that I never have to make that choice and I hope that I will always feel compassion for people who are forced into that type of choice.

In terms of the post that started it all ... you have made the decision to sacrifice job stuff for your animals ... that is your decision and you are questioning why don't people understand, but from the rest of your posts you are being just as un-understanding by saying you can't imagine how they can sacrifice there animals for the situation. I don't know how any of us can ask for understanding if we aren't willing to give it.when you aren't willing to give it?

[Chardavej]

No, they are not. They are creatures of instinct, habit, and occasional ill temper. Their "love" (such as it is) is entirely "conditional". To plaster them with sainthood to make the human feel special does them a great disservice.

AMEN!! I don't know of any my horses or the ones that board here that are "innocent" or give "unconditional love." Yea, they "unconditionally love" the damn cookie in my pocket, LOL!

I'm sorry, I do love animals more than people, and I always will, yet I would never choose an animals comfort over a persons comfort (comfort is the wrong word, but I think you all know what I mean. Well maybe not), ESPECIALLY a childs comfort. Even though I don't like or want kids, they still will come first.

[katarine]

I am reminded of the woman who approached me in a vet's parking lot years ago. She wanted to pet my horses, who were tied to the trailer awaiting a Coggins. She not only petted them, but told me all about how the Indians didn't need fences, they loved their ponies so much and understood them so well, the ponies stuck around out of love. You see, if only I loved MY ponies as well as the Indians had in the past, I wouldn't need fences. I must not be as good with horses as the Indians were, because I had fences, didn't I?

All the while I'm bemusedly eyeballing her dog. Her dog on a LEASH.

[JSwan]

:lol::lol:

Guess she didn't know that they also ate their ponies and if a warrior died his favorite pony was killed?

(gross generalization - I know they're not a single culture/tribe)

Oh they ate dogs, too. Boiled puppies was a real treat.

I don't think they kept them on leashes though - they were free range dogs and puppies. Much more juicy than store bought.

So it's ok.

[Laurierace]

I don't "get" why anyone cares if someone else "gets" it or not. I try to live my life by doing what I feel is right, not trying to please other people. Most of the time what I feel is right goes along with societies norms but sometimes it doesn't. Its when it doesn't that its most important to me to stay the course. Seriously have we ever collectively agreed on anything here? Does that mean that some of us are wrong or don't "get" it, or is there more than one way to get to the same destination?

[loshad]

You know, dogs and cats can move overseas. It's a huge pain in the butt, but I (and numerous others) have done it before and will again. At such time as my husband and I move, certainly our dogs will come with us. That having been said, I don't take them to locations where they will have to spend long periods of time in quarantine kennels and I don't take them to places without adequate vet care. My dogs are more well-traveled than most Americans.

My horse, on the other hand, will be sold or leased when we go overseas for a number of reasons. First, because I absolutely cannot afford to ship him over and back to the tune of approximately $20,000+. Second, I would most likely be unable to provide him the same standard of care he now receives and that really isn't fair to him. He would be downright furious if he had to give up his monthly massage appointment to live in exotic Eastern Europe or South Asia. The absolute BEST thing I can do for my horse is find him a home where someone will love him as much as I do (yes, it is possible) and take excellent care of him like I do (also possible). He likes me fine, but I doubt he (or anyone else's horse) will waste away to nothing because he doesn't have this specific monkey bouncing around on his back any more. It'll hurt me FAR more than it'll hurt him.

I fail to see why service to country, which for me has come at a pretty high price in terms of family and career, should also mean I can't own a horse because OMG!!!11!!1! he might one day have to be sold. As Trixie said, pets can be a tremendous comfort in times of upheaval and separation.

[lindasp62]

I am really getting it here with the OP....the juggling, mind-wrangling about job and pets....you see, my "job-job"...the one that actually PAYS me is that I am an ESL (English-as-a-Second-Language) teacher. I have my own private tutoring company and teach only to adults (foreign-born executives, immigrants, etc)...but LOVE my horses and working with and promoting my Brennan Equine Welfare Fund (non-paying)...and keeping my own horses and pets. Always for me the dilemma of juggling the two and, consequently, I have passed up the opportunites to teach overseas....However, the two have met in the middle on occasion....I have taught English to TWO trainers that have moved to the area from other countries!!! It was great...and hardly seemed like "work" because I would teach them English, yes, but with emphasis on farm life, horses, training, horsey phrases, vocabulary, etc. It was a dream job at that moment!!! Imagine, "field trips" to the barn! Checking homework of horse terminology, grammar and sentences about barn life!!

I would encourage the OP in her area for similar opportunities! Check out barns, trainers, barn staff, tack shops....etc.,..do a little networking..it will come to you someday too! How about holding an English workshop for immigrant barn staff?

And, about those who "just don't get it"....well, YOU get it and that's all that matters!!!!!!

[SmokenMirrors]

You know, dogs and cats can move overseas. It's a huge pain in the butt, but I (and numerous others) have done it before and will again. At such time as my husband and I move, certainly our dogs will come with us. That having been said, I don't take them to locations where they will have to spend long periods of time in quarantine kennels and I don't take them to places without adequate vet care. My dogs are more well-traveled than most Americans.

My horse, on the other hand, will be sold or leased when we go overseas for a number of reasons. First, because I absolutely cannot afford to ship him over and back to the tune of approximately $20,000+. Second, I would most likely be unable to provide him the same standard of care he now receives and that really isn't fair to him. He would be downright furious if he had to give up his monthly massage appointment to live in exotic Eastern Europe or South Asia. The absolute BEST thing I can do for my horse is find him a home where someone will love him as much as I do (yes, it is possible) and take excellent care of him like I do (also possible). He likes me fine, but I doubt he (or anyone else's horse) will waste away to nothing because he doesn't have this specific monkey bouncing around on his back any more. It'll hurt me FAR more than it'll hurt him.

I fail to see why service to country, which for me has come at a pretty high price in terms of family and career, should also mean I can't own a horse because OMG!!!11!!1! he might one day have to be sold. As Trixie said, pets can be a tremendous comfort in times of upheaval and separation.

My husband was a warrant officer in the Army for 18+ years and I use to rescue Northern Breeds. I rarely would adopt out to other military members or families, mainly because of the above reason. Many do not take care of their pets or wish to incure the $150 one way shipping fee for a pet over seas or back to the states (least that is how much it was when we were in) so they dump the animal or take it to a shelter. To me personally, that is irresponsible.

Same with a horse, if you can't keep it, wait till the husband, or wife are done with their military career then get one. I waited 18 years before buying my first horse, and when he did find a company on the east coast, they graciously paid for our, by then, 3 horses to be shipped to Virginia.

I saw more dogs, cats, rabbits, hamsters, birds, etc left in the quarters of military members it was horrid. In Europe, the animal shelters refused to even consider adopting out to an American family, they felt that we were too blase about our animals. It may have changed since we were there, but I can't see that in some areas.

[Sandy M]

AMEN!! I don't know of any my horses or the ones that board here that are "innocent" or give "unconditional love." Yea, they "unconditionally love" the damn cookie in my pocket, LOL!



Does my horse "love" me? No, not really. Is he DEPENDENT upon me? Definitely. And that's what I owe him - I've taken on responsibility for him and can't abandon that for convenience sake. Now, the horse I have now is five, a really nice prospect. If I were to sell him, he'd probably fetch a reasonable price considering the economy (certainly more than I paid for him), and go on to live a reasonably "happy" life with the person to whom he was sold.

My old retiree - not so much. When you've had a horse a long time, they DO get "emotionally" dependent too (well, some of them - guess it depends on the individual animal's personality). My retiree used to get depressed when I went on VACATION! That despite someone he knew well taking care of him, riding, grooming, feeding and generally fussing over him. He was obedient, but indifferent to them, and would stand in his stall with his head in a corner 90% of the time when I was gone. Since he has retired, I am perpetually guilt-stricken, since he has not taken all that kindly to retirement, has lost weight, despite all my efforts, and $$$ to the vets, etc., etc. for a 'best guess" diagnosis of lymphoma (over a year ago and he's still alive and active. Go figure.) He seems stabilized now, if somewhat thin despite getting lots of food. He has a buddy to whom he's quite attached, but he still screams when I call his name and while he seems happy to be turned back out with his buddy after I visit him, he's definitely NOT the same horse EMOTIONALLY that he was when in regular work and ridden by me almost every day. He's too arthritic now for that, so this is the only, and fairly costly alternative, BUT....

So, it may not be love, but there is an emotional debt on both sides, I feel, at least in his case.

[JollyBadger]

People don't always "get" it because not all people relate to horses (or animals in general) in the same way.

I'm the only really "horsey" person in my family, and have been told occasionally that if I just sold my horse I could have so much more money "freed up" for myself, new clothes, going to concerts and movies and vacations and other things. Once, when I was having a frustrating time locating a new boarding barn (previous barn owner was "getting out of the business"), I was told by a well-meaning friend that I could just sell my horse and get another one some time down the road.

I know he was trying to be helpful, and didn't understand that I personally didn't buy my horse with the intention of ever selling him again. Not to say that I think people who sell a horse are terrible, selfish people. . .because they're not. I don't think everyone who has to re-home a dog or cat is terrible or selfish, either. Sometimes things in life happen that are beyond our control, and the best thing we can do for our pets is to be sure they will have a safe, warm home with someone who will take good care of them. Sometimes a horse just isn't suitable for its rider, or for the discipline or competition level that it was originally purchased for.

Of course, there is also the mindset of just "getting rid of" an animal when it is no longer "convenient," and that DOES bother me. Both of my dogs (Rottweilers) were street-side throwaways. . .my cat was dropped at a no-kill shelter when he was twelve years old because his owners had a baby and didn't want him anymore. THAT is the type of disposable mentality that drives me up a wall.

[vacation1]

Wow, this sure went off track several times. I thought the OP was crystal clear unless you were either a) reading hastily or b) a bit over-eager to find fault with the writer.

As much as I love horses and dogs in general, I REALLY love these horses and this dog.... when I say, "They're family," why is that so insanely difficult to comprehend? Or to shake their heads in confusion but just drop it? Why do so many people feel the need to attach a negative judgement to my position? All I want is for them to stop trying to convince me it's "wrong" to consider my animals family.

The italicized bit I completely agree with - for whatever reason, some people don't seem to individualize animals. The easy explanation is when they're just not animal people and don't own anything. The more difficult explanation is when they do own a pet, but still haven't made that leap. I'm guessing they're the ones whose pets end up on CL the most.

I do think it's funny that several people are trying to convince others that animals aren't 'family' in this thread, considering what the OP mentions. My dog's my baby. If your children can be my future, my dog can damn well be my baby.:lol:

[loshad]

My husband was a warrant officer in the Army for 18+ years and I use to rescue Northern Breeds. I rarely would adopt out to other military members or families, mainly because of the above reason. Many do not take care of their pets or wish to incure the $150 one way shipping fee for a pet over seas or back to the states (least that is how much it was when we were in) so they dump the animal or take it to a shelter. To me personally, that is irresponsible.

Same with a horse, if you can't keep it, wait till the husband, or wife are done with their military career then get one. I waited 18 years before buying my first horse, and when he did find a company on the east coast, they graciously paid for our, by then, 3 horses to be shipped to Virginia.

I saw more dogs, cats, rabbits, hamsters, birds, etc left in the quarters of military members it was horrid. In Europe, the animal shelters refused to even consider adopting out to an American family, they felt that we were too blase about our animals. It may have changed since we were there, but I can't see that in some areas.

Are you for real? My dogs go with me. Period. THEY would care. My horse would not. My very recent experience in Europe and Asia is that pets are pretty much available for the asking to Americans. Generally, though, it isn't necessary to go to a shelter. The elder of our dogs we got off the street (as did many of our similarly situated friends -- most of whom have pets that they would not dream of leaving behind).

If I were moving across the country, the horse would come with me. To another country - hell no. Not fair to him and the standards of care in most places are not what I would want for him. He would freak out at the lack of turnout that is the norm in most locations. I practice appropriate stewardship of my horse by finding him a good home and ensuring he has good manners and training. It is not always practical to keep a horse for life REGARDLESS of how apparently stable a person's life is.

In your opinion horses should never be sold? There is a large degree of hubris to a person's thinking that no one else could EVER take care of their horse as well as they can. Or that if you can't keep a horse for life you shouldn't have one. Or that, quite frankly, your horse will curl up and die without you. Someone's been spending waaaay too much time reading her collection of Black Stallion novels. :rolleyes:

[SteppinEasy]

In terms of the post that started it all ... you have made the decision to sacrifice job stuff for your animals ... that is your decision and you are questioning why don't people understand, but from the rest of your posts you are being just as un-understanding by saying you can't imagine how they can sacrifice there animals for the situation. I don't know how any of us can ask for understanding if we aren't willing to give it.when you aren't willing to give it?

I don't believe *I* have said anything about anyone else's situation at all. Other posters, yes, but not me.

My main frustration was the simple fact that after being told that my animals were family to me, I've been repeatedly lectured by others about how wrong that attitude is, how I can always dump them and find other ones. Once I have used the words "family" to describe them, I truly don't understand how anyone can follow up in that way. That was the point of my initial post.

And just some further (and most certainly irrelevant) musing out loud...I also don't understand why people in my "real" life feel the constant need to lecture me on this aspect (they certainly don't feel the need to lecture me on other things, which is interesting). I don't have children, I'm not married, and after the death of my parents, I no longer have any close relatives. It's hard to figure out why anyone would care how I feel about my animals one way or the other. People are strange creatures.:)

[Wellspotted]

Look, it's just our way as a society. Throw it away.

Got a call from a former riding lesson client of a 2 years or so ago... Client I TOLD ...Do Not Buy Any Horses for the girls, Period...for at least a year. Let's see if they really ARE into this. Let's do lessons, fun shows, etc, see what they want to do with this, if it's not me, that's fine, if it's jumping I'll find you an english instructor, etc.. but PLEASE- don't go buyin' no horses.

FF a few months; one gaited pony, one retired gimpy hunter pony, one mini, one Appy. they hire a great girl, she rides and care-takes. Girls never ride. They won't ride w/o me there to coach...so riding comes only in fits and starts...

FF to last night...girls don't want 'em, we don't want 'em, we're headed to the beach. Can you help? Maybe, what's your timeline?

Mid July.

:no::no::no::no::no::no:



A textbook case of "got more money than sense." :rolleyes:
Not you, Katarine--the client!

[SmokenMirrors]

Are you for real? My dogs go with me. Period. THEY would care. My horse would not. My very recent experience in Europe and Asia is that pets are pretty much available for the asking to Americans. Generally, though, it isn't necessary to go to a shelter. The elder of our dogs we got off the street (as did many of our similarly situated friends -- most of whom have pets that they would not dream of leaving behind).

If I were moving across the country, the horse would come with me. To another country - hell no. Not fair to him and the standards of care in most places are not what I would want for him. He would freak out at the lack of turnout that is the norm in most locations. I practice appropriate stewardship of my horse by finding him a good home and ensuring he has good manners and training. It is not always practical to keep a horse for life REGARDLESS of how apparently stable a person's life is.

In your opinion horses should never be sold? There is a large degree of hubris to a person's thinking that no one else could EVER take care of their horse as well as they can. Or that if you can't keep a horse for life you shouldn't have one. Or that, quite frankly, your horse will curl up and die without you. Someone's been spending waaaay too much time reading her collection of Black Stallion novels. :rolleyes:

I was only saying MY views...take it or leave it. I chose to keep my horses and could someone take care of them as well as I? Probably but I go above and beyond what they probably need but that is because they give me a lot of satisfaction and joy.

Maybe your views of the military life style is not as jaded as mine is....I saw too many abandoned animals and neglect.....not everyone would take their pet. A friend of mine actually is boarding her aged mare with some friends of ours while her and her husband are stationed in Hawaii, she knows she is taken care of and fed and looked after. I would rather do that then get one, have it for some time then sell it.

Now, let me go back to reading my "Black Stallion" books...:cool:

[Bluey]

---"I’m not suggesting that animals are disposable. Ours are all here for life. I didn’t get animals until I was sure I could provide for them."---

Me too, I worked for others, taking care of their animals, but didn't have my own until I had a place I was going to stay, bar something unexpected.

Of course people sell and buy horses, that is the way most get the horses they have.:)
If no one sold horses, there would not be horses for others to buy.
It really is not a crime to sell your horse.
It is a crime to keep it in dire circumstances, with improper care, because someone can't afford good care, even if they do it because they don't think horses should be sold.

[Threebars]

You should NOT own a horse and have to rely on a food bank to feed yourself. Your priorities need to be in order and the horse needs to go on down the road to someone who can afford to feed and care for it and themselves.

You're awfully quick to pass judgment here.

I did not own a horse at the time (I have previously - and also sponsored horses at a reputable rescue by purchasing feed and supplies in richer times) - I don't have human children (for about a hundred reasons, none of which are relevant to you) and my cats are MY children - it was a simple observation about how there are different perspectives and circumstances.

I've thought about taking a position overseas, and done the research for taking my girls with me if I chose to - a real pain in the ass, but very feasible. Perhaps its a novel concept to you that circumstances DO change (in both directions) and not everything is as black and white and inflexible as a few comments on a message board.

[Jaegermonster]

Maybe I am reading this thread wrong, but what I got from the original post was not that the OP was bemoaning her situation or this or that, but that she is awed (as am I) about the cavalier attitude of so many others about animals.
It's not that "no one else can care for them as well as I can" but more that I have assumed responsibility for these animals and that is not a responsibility I take lightly.
It never ceases to amaze me how cavalier some folks are about their animals.
Job transfer? off the shelter with kitty
New baby on the way? off to the shelter with Fluffy
and so it goes.
And the most sad thing is that so many of those very same people get another pet after they move or after the baby comes.
I am in a heavy military area too, and it's amazing the flood of loose animals and animals coming into the shelters whenever a ship goes out or there is a big movement of personnel.
Of course people's life situations can make a drastic change and sometimes placement of animals is necessary, but there seems to be such a throwaway attitude toward them on the part of so many folks.

[Lieslot]

Well, I think you're on the right forum for kindred spirits ... We move quite often, due to my husbands job, and the "crew" comes with us. We look at barn and land situation before the actual house. Sad ... but true.
Haha, same here, we always figure out where the horses will live first and only then start thinking about where to house ourselves.

To the OP, it's frustrating to hear the same over & over again. In the past I would feel attacked when family members or friends go :"Wouldn't it be much simplier without the horses" and always felt the need to defend my horses. Now I just smile and don't even react anymore.
They'll never understand our relationship with animals, just like for example I can't understand why someone would spend an afternoon fishing, total waste of a good afternoon to 'me', but seemingly not to a fishing person.
Just let it go over your head. I stopped fretting over it or defending myself, coz in the end I'm the one being stressed over it, I'm the one with the turmoil, not them, they spit it out & move on. So I take the attitude of 'in one ear, out the other ear'. Just smile, hug your pets & horses and next time it's brought up, try steering the conversation about something else :).

[tullio]

Since many people have brought up animals and the military.... I have been surprised by the number of people who move/deploy and make no arrangements for their animals other than to drop them off at the local animal shelter. It has been eye-opening, and makes me sad since we see it so often here.

But there are many military families that do make pets a priority, and it's quite possible to move them around with you. I'm planning a move back to the east coast and we'll be traveling with a large-ish dog and a cat. It takes some planning but it sure can be done.

Post housing usually allows two pets, sometimes three... so that's probably not the issue for most of the families leaving pets behind to PCS. It's a choice someone is making, not a hardship they are reacting to. I understand that there might be situations where it's in the animal's best interest to be "rehomed" but that's a far cry from ditching them because it's convenient. I know plenty of single Soldiers who make arrangements for their pets during long times away from home - including for the entire length of a deployment. That's not something most pet owners will ever have to face, and maybe it is a tough transition for the animal, but I know some guys and girls that are deployed and have pretty much nothing to come home to except their pet. I wouldn't begrudge them that small comfort even if it does mean some transition time for the animal.

My dog and cat were my constant companions during my husband's deployment, and absolutely my best friends, although I had many wonderful people-friends around too. I cannot imagine loving anyone - 2 legged or 4 legged - more. They're my family and one of the reasons I get out of bed in the morning, and they'll come with us no matter where the Army sends us. All that being said, I am planning on waiting until we're done to buy a horse, because it's quite possible to end up someplace where transporting and maintaining a horse is more difficult or costly than I can manage. 4.5 more years to wait.......

[Jaegermonster]

Out of the last 4 years my husband has been on two year long deployments to Iraq. He got home in July and deployed again in January,for at least a year with probably extensions up to 5 years. It is a lot of work for me with all the animals and the horses and the farm, plus my job, but I would never ever ever dump my animals at a shelter.
I have 12 dogs. One is about to get rehomed with a good friend of mine who was staying here with me during the last deployment when he was a very very sick puppy that I fostered. But he is only going because he is picking too many fights with the other dogs and would be happier as an only child, I think. Not because he is inconvenient.

[pandorasboxx]

Wow, this sure went off track several times. I thought the OP was crystal clear unless you were either a) reading hastily or b) a bit over-eager to find fault with the writer.

Absolutely. Of course it was the usual ham-fisted suspects rushing in on their contrary horses. Wouldn't be a COTH thread without them.

I feel your pain OP. I adore my animals and consider them family. Our dog was a PIA for the first couple of years and numerous well-intentioned friends and family suggested getting rid of him, replacing him with a more biddable model. :eek:

When times were tight my sister in law kept mentioning selling the horses as I could always get another one later. Yep, folks are lining up for a senior Arab gelding who needs regular injections, sound for light riding only and requires an intermediate rider at a minimum. Even when I told her what his probable fate would be consigning him to the auction she also mentioned, it didn't seem to phase her in the least. Just wow. :no:

[Threebars]

Of course people's life situations can make a drastic change and sometimes placement of animals is necessary, but there seems to be such a throwaway attitude toward them on the part of so many folks.


I agree, and it saddens me immensely.

Due to circumstances, my dear freind had to rehome his green little Arab Gelding - thankfully, the place he was boarded at (and was doing his training) offered their assistance and placed him in a loving 4 H home where he was spoiled rotten (in a good way). It wasn't an easy choice, and unlike cats, he couldn't just keep in in the apartment and feed him 99 cent food for a week, but we all worked together to do what was best for all concerned instead of saying 'Oh well, we'll just dump him at the auction/craigslist'...

[feed lady65]

After my son was born, I constantly referred to his pediatrician as his vet, he was housebroke, not potty trained, and the dogs were his sisters. I would not give ANY of them up for any reason, I would go without before they do. Puppy or baby, I made a commitment when I brought them into my life. I do not own a horse at this time because I don't feel I can offer the same commitment right now.. My first horse was with me until he passed away, and any others I had were returned to their previous owners if I could not keep them. Since I know I cannot stretch my resources to cover the cost of properly caring for a horse, I get my enjoyment by caring for other peoples horses. As my boss once told me, "Why would you want the cost and time involvement when you can enjoy these guys and get paid for it?" Works for me!

[wendy]

I have never thought when I have bought an animal the owner was "disposing" of them nor when I sold one have I thought I was "throwing them away like garbage." Selling or rehoming isn't as dramatic as you are making it sound.
most people who "dispose" of animals don't sell them or rehome them. They toss them to the shelters, where they spend a horrible week of stress and terror, then most die. If they are lucky they end up stressed trying to adapt to a new home, which might also end up dumping them in a shelter again. Rehoming IS dramatic and if you acquire an animal without at least the intention of keeping it for its entire lifespan big shame on you.

[Trixie]

Rehoming IS dramatic and if you acquire an animal without at least the intention of keeping it for its entire lifespan big shame on you.

Oh, please, SERIOUSLY? Anyone who ever sells a horse should be shamed?

[katarine]

Oh Lord, Trixie-seriously, this is the point where you gather your lunch mess, clear the table, and desert the nutbar at the cafeteria table you had the misfortune to sit beside. It's fine that she's crazy, you don't have to change her or fix her. Your time is better spent grabbing a brownie and running for it ;)

[spookhorse]

Pets not "kids?" Sorry, in my household, the dogs and cats are, in fact, referred to as my kids' younger siblings :lol: Kids know it and the dogs both answer to "Little Brother" ;)

I think that maybe for some animals, love is conditional upon their care, but I do believe that for others (the more intelligent "thinking" ones) is that they are capable of loving, having feelings, and understanding to a point that their humans have emotional needs.

I have a Border Collie and there is no doubt that he loves me, anyone who meets him can tell that he is devoted to me. I don't think it has to do with food or the fact that the is with me all the time because when we met it was truly a "love at first sight" kind of deal. I am going through a break-up from a long term relationship and this is a dog who does not like to get on the bed, hasn't liked it in over 3 years, yet he knows that I am feeling punk and is now climbing on the bed to curl up with me.

Maybe some folks don't want to recognize signs of emotions and intelligence in an animal, but I have seen it in some and I understand how pets can also be "children" and indisposable.

[saje]

Care for one more perspective?

I am married but no kids. We have a nice collection of animals - 10 cats, 2 large dogs (was three until last week :( my 17 yo old Dal had to leave me) and 7 horses.

They are not my children (though I do occasionally refer to them as kids) they are not "like" children to me, if I'd wanted children I would have had them. What they are is dear dear friends, and I have lived in some very sketchy places in order to keep my animals with me. I cannot imagine my life without animals, and I have to date rehomed exactly one animal in my 47 years - a horse who was miserable in my set-up and who was therefore making everyone else miserable. He's MUCH happier where he is now, we just didn't click at all. (See the equine version of He's Just Not That Into You :winkgrin:)

But I must say, as much as I love them all, I think that I need them more than they need me, emotionally anyway. I think that if the bottom totally fell out of my world and I had to find new homes for my guys, or god forbid Hubby & I were killed at the same time, I think they'd be fine with new people. And for the most part, not across the board, not in every case, but mostly, I think that goes for all animals.

"Hi, who are you? Oooh, food! Yum! Hey, squeaky toy! Up on the couch? OK! Mmmmm scratch there please.... Sunbeams on the bedzzzzzzzz..... "

They might be a bit confuzzled for a bit, but overall I think most animals will adjust quickly & be just fine.

That said, I absolutely do not condone the disposable animal scenario, I hate it. I think that having assumed responsibility for them originally we do owe them stability if we can provide it, but there are cases when we can't and they have to be rehomed. Any animal guardian worth ANYTHING will do their utmost to find the perfect new home, and not just drop them at the nearest shelter or auction or :mad:move and leave them behind:mad:.

[Ajierene]

Am I the only one wondering why kids in rural China or Rural Africa need to learn English?

Really, when will they ever use it? Are they learning math, science, history and Chinese grammar properly? Seriously, saying rural kids in other countries need to learn English is like saying anyone in the Rural US needs to learn Spanish or German or whatever - really, when are they ever going to use it.

That is a pointless endeavor. The original poster and all her friends should just quit their little non-profits and set up non-profits to help rural and inner city kids in the US who sorely lack proper education.

[arabhorse2]

Well Ajierene, when you're Empress of the World, you can dictate how people choose to spend their lives.

Until then, WTF does that have to do with this thread at all?

For your information, since you seem to be unaware of it, English is used as the language of business all over the globe. So for any child who wants to actually succeed instead of just exist as an adult, learning English is a good way to start that process.

Learning another language is good for everyone. Most countries are multi-cultural, so any child who knows more than one language already has a step up on a child who doesn't.

Your ignorance is showing, dear. You might want to tuck it back up under your skirt.

[saje]

Am I the only one wondering why kids in rural China or Rural Africa need to learn English?

Yes.

[BabyGoose]

I understand that not everybody wants animals or will understand why someone feels their animals are so important. Everybody has their own priorities and interests. But what I find concerning is the growing lack of respect for animals and the idea that they are animals and are not just "things". More and more kids have no concept of animals. They are not around animals. My sister in law brought out her granddaughter the other day to see the farm animals because she had never seen or been around animals, and we live in a fairly rural community! She said they had an exercise at school where they were supposed to glue cotton balls to a sheep cutout and the kids didn't have a clue that the cotton balls represented wool and that sheep had wool.

A group in our city is trying to get an ordinance changed to allow people to have a few chickens in their backyards for eggs. A lot of people are against the change because they think that everybody is going to get avian flu from them! Look what Egypt has been doing to pigs because of swine flu.

People are becoming further removed from animals and the fact that they are living creatures and not just inanimate objects.

[Pirateer]

I don't "get it" why some people think children are all that and a bag of Cheetos, and want a whole houseful of 'em. However, I'd probably be run out of town on a rail if I suggested their parents get rid of them for a job. After all, they can always make more, right? :lol:.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=BabyGoose;4161943] Look what Egypt has been doing to pigs because of swine flu.

/QUOTE]


That didn't have as much to do with pigs as it did a land grab. Pig farming was done by and for the Christian minority of that country.

And no, that was not intended to be a comment on anyone's religion. Merely pointing out that the government knew full well the pigs did not pose a health threat.

It was politics. Plain and simple.

[midkniggit]

Drastic circumstances are one thing - the issue people have is with animals being treated as disposable. Responsible owners do what is best for the animal. Sometimes that's rehoming/selling (or even euthing), but dumping your cat at the shelter or your horse at an auction is NOT rehoming. It's throwing away. My most recent cat acquisition was when a guy moved out of my apartment building and just dumped his cat outside :mad::mad::mad:

I'm also very sad to say I've seen a LOT of military personnel treat animals as disposable. And to be fair, a lot don't. My parents flew their 3 dogs to and from Japan. Many of them take great care to make sure their pets are ok, whether that means leaving the pet with friends/family members, or with a foster group. Deployments/PCSing are things that military folks need to consider when they get pets. My fiance is in the Navy, and we've already made housing arrangements for the cats and horses in case we're sent somewhere that we can't take them.

[Mara]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

x3 :lol::lol::lol::lol:
'Specially babies. You haven't had 'em all that long, can't be too attached yet, right?

[thought]

I feel the same way. However, whenever I get an animal, I always have a back up plan in case the worst does happen. For example, my parents have agreed to take our cat--and agreed before we got her. I am currently without a horse, and at this point in my life I would only lease, because I am not financially stable enough for horse ownership. I can wait.

As a graduate student, I've seen my share of people abandoning their animals because life wasn't convenient. College students are notorious for abandoning animals; the SPCA in my hometown won't adopt animals out to them. It sucks, and I've lost friends over this issue. People don't like it when you tell them they're being irresponsible and cruel, but it needs to be said. Just like kids can't help the parents they're born to, animals have no choice in who adopts them.

Maybe it's human nature, or just American culture, but many of us can't seem to plan for the long term in any aspect of our lives (look at the state of our environment!). People don't seem to realize that animals are more than just a one time monetary cost, especially horses. I currently live in Colorado, and people seem to think that if they have an acre of grass, that's enough to sustain their horse. Nevermind the availability of water.

Alright, enough ranting. Sigh.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

People are becoming further removed from animals and the fact that they are living creatures and not just inanimate objects.

Urbanization of the masses is the base of the problem. The majority of people on the planet live in situations where they cannot or do not find it undesirable to keep animals, regardless of them being companions or meat producers. They take it up on themselves to spread their ideas in the world, because it has become acceptable to "share" your philosophy, regardless of the intrusion on the lives of others.

The thread recently, considering where horses are livestock or pets, illustrated this beautifully.

[kdow]

Drastic circumstances are one thing - the issue people have is with animals being treated as disposable. Responsible owners do what is best for the animal. Sometimes that's rehoming/selling (or even euthing), but dumping your cat at the shelter or your horse at an auction is NOT rehoming. It's throwing away. My most recent cat acquisition was when a guy moved out of my apartment building and just dumped his cat outside :mad::mad::mad:

This. There is a HUGE difference between thoughtfully rehoming an animal and 'dumping' it somewhere. Even in very dire situations, many rescues are happy to help if you just get in touch - the issue is that people don't get in touch. They don't even THINK about what they're going to do with the animals, they just get rid of them in the easiest way possible. Shelter, street, leave them behind, whatever.

When you take on an animal, you are taking on the responsibility to that animal to make provision for it to have a decent life to the best of your abilities as long as that animal lives. That means adequate care and attention, that means being willing to sacrifice as needed to rehome if it comes to that, and that even means being prepared to have that animal pts if it's TRULY in the animal's best interest. (Not YOUR best interest. Taking an old animal who wouldn't rehome well to the vet to be put to sleep is one thing; taking a younger animal that would adapt fine just because you don't want to do the work of finding a new home? No.)

Does this mean that animals CAN'T be rehomed or sold? No. In fact, you should move them along to someone else if you can't provide a good environment for the animal - but it's not responsible to just go with the first person who answers an ad and turns up with cash, or to dump it on the local shelter.

Heck, my family HAS rehomed a dog who wasn't happy with us - we lived in the city, and he needed a lot more exercise than we had time to give him since our yard wasn't big enough for him to run around in. We had friends who lived further out who had two teenaged kids who were into the outdoors anyway, so he went to live with them and was ABSURDLY happy - they walked him multiple times a day, he got to run around in their large yard, it was a very good place for him and he stayed with them until he died of old age.

(And I would quite happily argue that you should consider these sorts of things before getting an animal. When I lived in the UK, I REALLY would have loved to have a dog. However, for various reasons I was often called away for a couple of days at very little notice, so it just wouldn't have been fair to a dog to be in that situation. I got rats instead, because they *could* get along happily in their cage for a couple of days with extra food and water bottles added, and were easy for someone to check on for me if things went longer than expected - I had several friends lined up who would check on my place for me and make sure the boys had food and water and the cage wasn't TOO revolting.)

[MandyVA]

However, whenever I get an animal, I always have a back up plan in case the worst does happen. For example, my parents have agreed to take our cat--and agreed before we got her. I am currently without a horse, and at this point in my life I would only lease, because I am not financially stable enough for horse ownership. I can wait.

Great point, and I guess this is kind of what the issue of what to do if you wind up in bad times hinges on in my mind. My family are all a bunch of animal lovers, so my dogs and cats have frequently lived with one of my sisters when I couldn't afford places that allowed them...including some I'd had since I was a teenager and couldn't take to law school with me. Even my horses were taken in by a close friend when I had surgery and couldn't physically take care of them. It's unfortunate that not everyone can-or is willing to-ask for that kind of help, both for them and for the animals.

[SteppinEasy]

Well, this has very little to do with the point of the thread (i.e. why people consider animals to be disposable and feel the need to thrust that belief on others in a way they wouldn't with other beliefs), but I thought I should post that I've found a job!

It's a faculty position teaching English and writing in a rather funky (in a good way) department. My courses for the fall haven't been finalized yet, so there's a possibility I might be teaching ESL, too, which will make all my friends happy.:lol: Best of all, it's in Lexington, so I'll be able to live in my favorite town in the world.

It's almost unheard of to be hired this late in the year, so I'm very thankful for the opportunity. Thanks for all the well-wishes and prayers, especially those received through PMs. They mean more than you can know!

[Casey09]

Congratulations on the new job!
Honestly, when I'm out in public I try to keep my mouth shut when people talk about pets and animals because I know that most people just don't have the level of attachment to them that I do. I would be absolutely heartbroken if I had to re-home my dogs. I would do it if I couldn't provide good care.
I do think that selling horses is different from re-homing dogs and cats. There is a lot more of a market for a rideable horse than there is for an adult dog or cat. I've gotten adult dogs before, and they are so much easier. However, I've also found dogs - nice dogs - and searched for homes for them (because I will not take on more pets than I can provide good care to). Frankly, it was HARD - really hard. Sometimes, I think people underestimate how difficult it is to find a home for an adult dog or cat. There are just a LOT out there. Unfortunately, sometimes people have to - and hopefully they are lucky enough to have a family member or friend who can take them or have enough advance notice and are willing to really look. Most people I've known who decided to re-home wanted the dog or cat gone like, now. Immediately. I'm not talking about scenarios where the dog had some type of unusual aggression. I'm talking about, "We're taking a lot more pride in our yard and we have to find Fido a home by this weekend, or we're taking him to the pound." I have to smile and nod, all while biting my tongue because you just can't change people. Don't get me wrong - I have an older horse and I know that I probably would have a pretty hard time selling him. I think that there are more options, though, than with dogs or cats.

[Twisting]

I used to be one of those people who swore up and down that I would never rehome a pet. Then I found myself in a situation where keeping my cat was simply not possible. There was nothing I could do to change the fact that I had to find my cat a new home. Yeah, I'm military, and maybe I shouldn't have owned a pet, but I did everything in my power to be a responsible pet owner. I shipped her with me from England to California. I arranged for her to stay with my parents while I was deployed to Korea. It was only after I arrived in Korea that I found out her breed, Bengal, was banned from being imported to my follow on assignment in Hawaii.

There was no way for me to know when I got her that I would be in Hawaii in a few years, it wasn't even an option for my previous job. My mother would have kept my cat but my cat and my parents cat hated each other. They could not learn to get along and it was stressing out both cats. The only option other than rehoming her was to have her live locked up in a spare bedroom for 4 years. My parents found a nice family that had just lost thier 20 year old cat and were ready for another. The fact that my cat was going to a wonderful home did not change how painful it was for me to have to give her up. This cat was my comfort when living half way across the world from everyone I loved.

Moral of the story? Not every military member who has to find a new home for their pet is doing so because they think animals are disposable. Even the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

[Lambie Boat]

If it ever comes down to me or my horses? I will sell them, and I have had to make that choice, even though it broke my heart to do so.

and if the rapture comes and I'm left behind? I will eat my horse if that will mean I survive. She is a plump, well fed horse, with no additives or preservatives.

p.s. they will survive a few days without you if you leave water & food, with a person checking in on them as a bonus. Many people use their critters as an excuse to not engage socially

[veebug22]

Children and animals are not the same. A person may relate to them in a similar way, love them similarly, but their natures and ability to be happy with a new family are entirely different. If, out of nowhere, you took your child to a nice home and left him or her there, you can bet that child is going to deal with serious issues his or her entire life. My husband is adopted and still grapples with feelings about it. If you leave your horse at a friend's barn, or your dog with a nice family, 99% of the time they are going to deal and be just fine, just as happy as before. YOU may not be, in either situation, and that is similar. But that is basing the entire experience on your feelings and its effect on you. How is that so different from judging someone else because what THEY feel is that they must let their horse or animal go? It's not any easier. My gelding is with me for life, barring a situation where I can no longer provide for him or something else that necessitates me letting him go, but my mare was a friend's "forever" horse. She didn't plan to sell her, but it wasn't a good fit and she had family obligations. It was gut-wrenching, but I would say a very unselfish decision for her family and the horse in the end. I've bought and sold horses. Am I being cruel by working with them to train them up for a job and then selling them to people that I'm sure will provide (and have) a good home doing a job the horse is good at and enjoys? That's the basis of our entire industry. Otherwise the top levels would look totally different. Very few breed, keep, and ride their own. And people would never have the opportunity to buy a horse nicer than they could make, etc. Horse rotation is necessary. If a horse is well cared for and happy, I think that's what matters. If what matters to you is that you keep your animals always, so be it. But judging others on it is hypocritical.