Olympic Horses -- Amateur Ride?

[TKR]

The thread about stallions producing ammie-friendly temperments made me wonder -- in the past Olympics (recent or otherwise) -- which mounts would you consider ammie-friendly? I didn't think anyone was going to post that their stallion only produced Olympic level horses that were strictly professional rides on the other thread -- but what about assessing the Olympic or even other venues of international importance with the same quality/level competing. Just thought it would be an interesting topic.
PennyG

[JER]

The 2008 gold medalist in eventing, Hinrich Romeike, was an amateur -- a full-time dentist -- riding his horse Marius.

Marius is a Hosteiner by the TB stallion Condrieu (a racehorse) and his rider has described him as a horse who doesn't make mistakes and forgives less-than-perfect riding.

(I don't know if this is typical of horses with his breeding, just that this is an example of a true amateur winning in the Olympics.)

[Foxtrot's]

That is a good example! Love that pair for what they do.

I also think that a lot of horses can be ramped up to Olympic efforts when otherwise - brought along on a different track - they would be ammi-friendly. It is a fallacy that a pro-ride is a hard horse to ride. Pro's don't like a tough horse or one that will let them down any more than a normal rider. It just happens that they can ride such an animal if he has enough talent, etc. What the Olympic horses have to do is hard enough. "Interior qualities" is a big part of a stallion's test.

[Foxtrot's]

Just looked up Condrieu (TB - Holsteiner approved) on All Breed Pedigree and in the information box it mentions his pedigree is very similar to Lauries Crusader. Missing the Tudor Ministral part, but making it up with DANTE. Hence is ability in dressage?

I had not made the connection - tb lover here.

[Daventry]

I also think that a lot of horses can be ramped up to Olympic efforts when otherwise - brought along on a different track - they would be ammi-friendly. It is a fallacy that a pro-ride is a hard horse to ride. Pro's don't like a tough horse or one that will let them down any more than a normal rider. It just happens that they can ride such an animal if he has enough talent, etc.


IMHO, I disagree. A horse who makes it to the Olympic level is certainly talented, and yes, the good pros can get that ride out of them. I disagree that, if that horse was brought up along a different track, that they would be an amateur ride. While there will always be an exception to the rule, Olympic level horses for the most part, I don't think are amateur rides. A pro horse isn't necessarily one that's tough to ride, but I will say that they are more sensitive and therefore, less forgiving of mistakes...that an amateur would make! They also often tend to be more athletic than the average horse and most amateur riders just don't know what to do with that extra talent and athletic ability or know how to contain it.

Horses like Big Ben, Cagney, Olympic Bonfire, Zucarlos, Gifted and TomBoy immediately come to mind. I just don't see those horses ever being an amateur ride! Could it have been done if the horses had been brought along differently. Maybe. But horses who are that sensitive and possess that much talent and athletic ability would likely have ended up being bored as an amateur horse and I'm betting would have become difficult rides for the amateur owners due to the boredom and stifling their talent and athletic ability (ie. playing, leaping, bucking, strong in the bridle). :yes: We've all seen that one horse at the Olympics that you just know an amateur could have been happy and safe on, I just don't think many of them truly exist!

[grayarabpony]

Jus de Pomme's rider claimed that his little son could ride JdP.

[Rhyadawn]

Horses like Big Ben, Cagney, Olympic Bonfire, Zucarlos, Gifted and TomBoy immediately come to mind. I just don't see those horses ever being an amateur ride! Could it have been done if the horses had been brought along differently. Maybe. But horses who are that sensitive and possess that much talent and athletic ability would likely have ended up being bored as an amateur horse and I'm betting would have become difficult rides for the amateur owners due to the boredom and stifling their talent and athletic ability (ie. playing, leaping, bucking, strong in the bridle). :yes: We've all seen that one horse at the Olympics that you just know an amateur could have been happy and safe on, I just don't think many of them truly exist!

I've got to disagree here. A friend of mine rode one of the horses you mentioned, and while she was a confident rider she certianly isn't a pro. She rode this horse 4 times a week for over a year and loved it, and he was never a handful for her.

[ponygirl]

Jus de Pomme's rider claimed that his little son could ride JdP.


On a loose buckle or a nice hack? Very different than *riding* him over a GP course.
Daventry's post really is spot on IMHO. One that can truly be ridden at upper levels with an "average ammie" really is a rare thing.

[Daventry]

I've got to disagree here. A friend of mine rode one of the horses you mentioned, and while she was a confident rider she certianly isn't a pro. She rode this horse 4 times a week for over a year and loved it, and he was never a handful for her.

I'm not talking about an amateur being able to hack a horse on their own every once in awhile, etc. I'm talking about an amateur rider being able to ride/train/show Olympic horses at the upper levels, not necessarily just the Olympic levels though. I'm assuming the horse you are speaking about was still being schooled/shown at the higher levels, hence, being able to express his talent and abilities still on a regular basis and not getting completely bored.

All I am saying is, if that talented horse was taken over by an amateur at a young age, and let's say never did any more than 2'6" hunters their entire lives, I think that rider would have a holy terror on their hands, as they would be holding the horse back from their natural talent and athletic ability. I think that horse would become quickly and easily bored.

At the other end of the spectrum is...would that Olympic level horse do as well at that level with a good amateur as compared to being ridden by a pro? pony girl stated it well...there is a big difference between being able to hack a horse and getting around a Grand Prix course or test! Whether we like it or not, some horses are "pro rides". Whether that's due to temperament, sensitivity, athletic ability, etc. I find many of those horses exist at the higher levels of sport.

[Tiki]

I did an awful lot more than hack an Olympic horse, and I got a very, very good ride from him with all the dressage movements he knew.

[grayarabpony]

On a loose buckle or a nice hack? Very different than *riding* him over a GP course.
Daventry's post really is spot on IMHO. One that can truly be ridden at upper levels with an "average ammie" really is a rare thing.

Yeah, his 8-year-old rode him over a Grand Prix course. What do you think?

It's technically difficult riding any horse over an Olympic level course. If it weren't we'd all be doing it. If Daventry meant that a horse that can be ridden by an average ammie at upper levels, that makes no sense at all. That would just mean the richest people would always buy push-button horses and win at the Olympics.

Personally, I don't think personality is linked to talent, and many horses can probably perform at one level with one kind of rider, and at a higher level with another. I don't think it's usually Olympics or bust. Just MHO.

[caevent]

I've heard that McKinlaigh, Gina Miles' horse, is quite a good fellow. I doubt that an amateur would have taken him as far as Gina has, but he seems to be a very kind, game horse. Like most of the other Irish horses out there!

[Daventry]

If Daventry meant that a horse that can be ridden by an average ammie at upper levels, that makes no sense at all. That would just mean the richest people would always buy push-button horses and win at the Olympics.

If you think money is all it takes to win at the Olympics, then you seriously need to learn more about your equestrian disciplines! :no::eek::confused:


Personally, I don't think personality is linked to talent, and many horses can probably perform at one level with one kind of rider, and at a higher level with another. I don't think it's usually Olympics or bust. Just MHO.

Personality may not be directly linked to talent, but it sure as heck is related to the successful talented horses who are out there showing. The horses at the Olympic levels MUST possess some level of heart, bravery, willingness, forgiveness, etc. or they would have never been able to reach that level in the first place. A horse with a pissy attitude, no heart and no desire to please it's rider certainly won't find itself at the top level of the Show Jumping world!

[TKR]

The route and training to get to international level is very grueling and demanding. I *think* that the added energy, spark, drive (complicated brains) or even quirks lends some "extra" to the horses at that level which makes them competitive in that company. It could also make them a tougher ride for many ammies. There are quite a few ammies that are as talented as pros, but those aren't the majority. What I was asking was about international level horses that would be ammie-friendly for your "average" amateur rider (in competition). It has always been interesting to read the stories of so many of those BN horses/riders and the "journey" it took in training, blood, sweat and tears to get there -- certainly not for the faint of heart or ability. So would you say that most of those upper UPPER level horses are not ammie friendly? Just an interesting observation, not necessarily a fact.
PennyG

[Foxtrot's]

Once the horse has the extensive training behind it and it doing the upper level stuff is different from that same bloodline being taken along a different track. That's all I meant.
I do know that in the jumpers, some have such a big jump that they jump the less capable riders out of the tack. Actually, it all depends upon a lot of variables. Our daughter in Grade l2 groomed for a GP rider and rode all his horses quite well, they were well trained and good minded, for a young person to school lightly.

[Rhyadawn]

I think what we are forgetting is that pro riders were ammies once upon a time. They were little kids playing on ponies learning their diagonals and strides. They spent countless hours learning their sport and I shudder to think the dollars to get where they are.

Their horses that they ride have been developed as well. Not every "sporthorse" is pro quality, some just don't have the ability or the drive. Some never had the right trainer.

[Rhyadawn]

Yeah, his 8-year-old rode him over a Grand Prix course. What do you think?

It's technically difficult riding any horse over an Olympic level course. If it weren't we'd all be doing it. If Daventry meant that a horse that can be ridden by an average ammie at upper levels, that makes no sense at all. That would just mean the richest people would always buy push-button horses and win at the Olympics.

Personally, I don't think personality is linked to talent, and many horses can probably perform at one level with one kind of rider, and at a higher level with another. I don't think it's usually Olympics or bust. Just MHO.

This gets at what I was trying to say; pro level riders have the training behind them to develop horses. For the average ammi rider to buy a pro trained horse and expect to compete would be suicide. They just don't have the skill or training to ride at that level.

Does it mean they never will? no, but they have a lot of work till they get there.

[Daventry]

This gets at what I was trying to say; pro level riders have the training behind them to develop horses. For the average ammi rider to buy a pro trained horse and expect to compete would be suicide. They just don't have the skill or training to ride at that level.

Does it mean they never will? no, but they have a lot of work till they get there.

Exactly! And the truth of the matter is, the majority of amateur riders will never get there. Just like NHL Hockey, NBA Basketball, the National Baseball League, etc., only the most talented ever make it to the top of their sport. I think someone had once quoted that it was less than 1%...I think that goes for percentages on Olympic level horses too. So, that being said, the majority of amateur riders out there will just not ever make it to the top of their sport. Now, they can go ahead and call themselves pros...but that term is easily thrown out there by any rider willing to hang up a sign on their gate! :yes: The word "professional" doesn't automatically mean they can go ahead and get their Home Country's flag tattooed on their butt 'cause they will be going to the Olympics. :lol:

Money will certainly open up opportunities to purchase a winning and talented horse, but no money in the world can turn an average rider into a talented and great rider if they just don't have the talent for it. Hence, that money they spent on the expensive and talented horse will just be going to waste as they will never be able to ride that horse properly and bring out the talent in the horse. Money certainly helps but it cannot create miracles!

[FriesianX]

The other reality - besides a good pro having the ability to bring out the best of a good horse - is that a top talent horse is just going to be more sensitive, quicker to respond to stimuli, with a greater response, than is a "normal" horse. Uber talent usually means uber everything (including ego to go along with it)! And such a horse, with that sensitivity, that movement, that athleticism, is going to feel totally stifled, frustrated, and shut down by the average rider (and not just average ammie, but average local pro). Sure, there may be exceptions - Brentina comes to mind, a horse who seems to have a quieter, gentler character than the average Olympic dressage horse... You could probably make a mare like that into an "average rider" horse, and she wouldn't be brain-fried in the process. But I think she's an exception to the rule...

[vineyridge]

Just looked up Condrieu (TB - Holsteiner approved) on All Breed Pedigree and in the information box it mentions his pedigree is very similar to Lauries Crusader. Missing the Tudor Ministral part, but making it up with DANTE. Hence is ability in dressage?

I had not made the connection - tb lover here.

I wouldn't exactly say they were similarly bred. Yes, they both have High Top as a close ancestor, and they both have Court Martial and Donatello, but all the other common horses in their pedigrees are also common to a huge number of European TBs, as are, in fact, Court Martial and Donatello. High Top is huge in steeplechasers.

Condrieu's grandsire Tepukei was licensed by the KWPN and has quite a few daughters that have bred on and produced jumpers and at least one Z1 and 2 Z2 (whatever that is) dressage mares who are licensed for breeding in the KWPN dressage book.

[vineyridge]

But what about the top level horses who get sold down the levels when they age? Aren't there a lot of them? I keep thinking about the two horses who were switched at the Ward's barn. One had been a GP jumper in California, albeit not Olympic level, and he ended up with a junior riding him, as a junior had ridden him in California. Over on the hunter jumper board and in the magazine, there was a story about an Olympic jumper who ended up in a very bad place, and HE had been in a lesson program.

If the mind is not there, it's not going to suddenly appear as the horse gets older. He'll just get meaner (it would seem to me) with a less than tactful ride.

[Foxtrot's]

That was quite the story! And then all the schoolmaster dressage horses teaching the up and commers.

[D_BaldStockings]

I think most horses are a lot more mentally flexible than people give them credit for.

Just look at the variety of questions we ask them and all they must adjust to in general from life with people.
Fried horses are often human engineered.
That doesn't mean that a less skilled rider can get an olympic performance from an olympic horse, any more than a novice musician can get a great sound out of a Stradivari violin. But an olympic horse may be able to have a life after competition teaching novices or enjoying less strenuous rides in the countryside, etc.

A very good horseman once said,
"I can guarantee this horse is perfectly trained; however, I cannot guarantee that anyone can ride him so perfectly."

[Daventry]

But what about the top level horses who get sold down the levels when they age? Aren't there a lot of them? I keep thinking about the two horses who were switched at the Ward's barn. One had been a GP jumper in California, albeit not Olympic level, and he ended up with a junior riding him, as a junior had ridden him in California. Over on the hunter jumper board and in the magazine, there was a story about an Olympic jumper who ended up in a very bad place, and HE had been in a lesson program.



Again though, the examples are falling short. An Olympic horse in top physical and mental condition and at the top of their game is going to be a very different ride than a former Olympian, semi-retired, no longer having the same desire or heart to be at the top level, possibly dealing with arthritic problems, no longer as physically fit and likely mentally and physically burnt out. Which do you think is going to be the easier ride?

This is definitely a very interesting topic. Though, I took the topic to be about current Olympic mounts who would be amateur friendly right now...not 10 years from now when their career is done and they are semi-retired.

[RiddleMeThis]

To me being amateur friendly means that if an amatuer had the skill to ride at X level they could ride that specific horse at "X" level.

To say a horse isnt amateur friendly because an amatuer that cant ride at "X" level cant ride that horse, doesnt make sense to me.

An amatuer that cant ride at "X" level couldnt ride ANY horse at "X" level successfully.

To me amateur friendly means if a rider knows what they are doing but arent perfect like a pro would be, they could still ride that horse.

Maybe my definition for "amateur friendly" is wrong, but that is what Ive always thought.

[Juniberry]

I got a couple of examples but I do agree they are a minority. A local girl who was on the British eventing team 2008 til her horse went lame has a great arrangment. The owner who I think has only competed to Novice level keeps the horse fit and happy. Lots of gallop work and hacking out on grass and the moors due to having bad feet for road work. The olympic rider does the competitons and some schooling although I think the owner schools as well.

John Whitiker has a similar arrangment really struggling to remember the name of the horse. He just missed out on the olympics due to age but was winning at international level. The owner kept the horse at home and took him to the shows where John would get on and ride. For really big shows I think the horse went to Johns yard for a couple of weeks before. This was only about 10 years ago. I can see the horse but can't remember the name Keely was the owner I think.

In the pony eventing area I have also seen someone use money to win the gold. I worked for them for about 6 months in that time 8 top level ponies came and went. Eventually about 15 plus ponies down the line the perfect pony was bought, he had won previously with a diffrent rider and nation. New rider who had the very wealthy dad got on the pony and won indervidual gold at European Pony Championships. Yes she had had lots of lessons but it was money more than pro status that got the result. She gave up riding with in 2 years of the win.

There are also a couple of top level dressage riders bank rolled by mum and dad. They may not get the golds but they do get team spots for International comps. Again with lots of money they obviously have lots of training. But I personally do question with out the massive family finacial support would they be top riders and could they ride anothers horse.

The self made true talented pros are also offten on none ammie horses as to make it they have to sell and produce horses. The one with the extra spark is probally the one you can't sell. The great talented skilled top level horse who the ammie can ride is so valuable they get sold. This may mean they never fufill their true potential but it also means the quirky horse that most would of given up on is now the true professionals top ride.

These are sweeping statements and a minority but true money does make a big differance

[aahunterjumper]

Prior to her Olympic career, Touch of Class (1984 double gold show jumping medallist) was a Children's Hunter. As I recall hearing, Irish, 1992 US Olympic show jumping team, was found by Rodney Jenkins doing Adult Jumpers. Both of them were non-pro rides (at lower levels) before being paired with a pro to display their full potential.

Abdullah, the Trakehner stallion, was brought along by his non-pro owners from age two on. His owner competed him through Prelim eventing and turned him over to a pro to compete in Grand Prixs. Even when he was winning the World Cup, competing in World Championships and Silver and Gold medals at the 1984 Olympics, his owner still flatted him.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are amateurs, and then there are amateurs.

I know many amateurs that ride a couple (+) of horses per day, clinic with BN trainers each month, ride all kinds of temperaments, totally confident, etc. THOSE amateurs are a different cup of tea from the ones that are a bit timid, ride their one horse 2 - 4 times per week, ask their trainer to get on first on a windy day, etc. They need different horses.

[grayarabpony]

If you think money is all it takes to win at the Olympics, then you seriously need to learn more about your equestrian disciplines! :no::eek::confused:

Personality may not be directly linked to talent, but it sure as heck is related to the successful talented horses who are out there showing. The horses at the Olympic levels MUST possess some level of heart, bravery, willingness, forgiveness, etc. or they would have never been able to reach that level in the first place. A horse with a pissy attitude, no heart and no desire to please it's rider certainly won't find itself at the top level of the Show Jumping world!

Daventry is English your second (more) language? Since you can't recognize sarcasm? And are you saying that good amateur horses are horses with a pissy attitude, no heart and no desire? How stupid!

[grayarabpony]

This gets at what I was trying to say; pro level riders have the training behind them to develop horses. For the average ammi rider to buy a pro trained horse and expect to compete would be suicide. They just don't have the skill or training to ride at that level.

Does it mean they never will? no, but they have a lot of work till they get there.

What does that have to do with the original post? Or what I posted, for that matter?

My opinion is this: there are horses at the top level that amateurs can ride, at the level the amateur is capable of riding at, which anybody with common sense could glean from my first post on this thread. There are horses at top level that would go best only for professionals. There are horses at lower and mid-levels that amateurs can comfortably ride, horses that don't have talent for upper levels. And there are horses at lower and mid-levels that go best only for professionals, again horses that don't have talent for upper levels. Obviously these last horses are bottom of the barrel.

Feel free to take comments out of context and argue.

[Indy-lou]

I think for the discussion to be fruitful, you first have to define and AGREE on what is meant by "amateur rider". And personally, I don't think there can be any one definition, a "one size fits all" description. A rider's seat and hands, the sum total of training, experience and not the least of which is native talent is, to my mind elusive to such things. Are you asking if one of these horses, say Ravel, would tolerate a rider less educated than Steffen? To what extent? Would Ravel tolerate a beginning rider asking for WTC without dumping said rider? I mean, the variables are so extensive it seems almost impossible to answer the question.

[akrogirl]

Again though, the examples are falling short. An Olympic horse in top physical and mental condition and at the top of their game is going to be a very different ride than a former Olympian, semi-retired, no longer having the same desire or heart to be at the top level, possibly dealing with arthritic problems, no longer as physically fit and likely mentally and physically burnt out. Which do you think is going to be the easier ride?

This is definitely a very interesting topic. Though, I took the topic to be about current Olympic mounts who would be amateur friendly right now...not 10 years from now when their career is done and they are semi-retired.


A friend of ours, who rode in the days when pros couldn't compete in the Olympics, had an incredible horse by Bon Nuit. This guy did the really big GP's and Puissance classes (7' walls etc.). Our friend ended up with him because the top male riders of the day just didn't get on with him for some reason. On occasion, this horse did the big GP with our friend and the x-rail class with one of her beginners at the same show!!!

[Mozart]

Well, I am not going to get into what defines an ammie ride, but I will say that there was a cool looking grey show jumper in Hong Kong called California. Japanese horse maybe?? Anyway he looked like a nice laid back cool customer. I remember thinking to myself "hmm I think I could ride that horse and not get myself killed in the warm up ring".

I have no idea re: his breeding.

[DownYonder]

I am not too sure there are very many horses out there with the talent to be successful at international levels, but the brains to be completely safe with the average amateur.

This aging, somewhat timid amateur would love to have a sit on Don Schufro, though. :winkgrin::yes:

[Mozart]

The 2008 gold medalist in eventing, Hinrich Romeike, was an amateur -- a full-time dentist -- riding his horse Marius.

Marius is a Hosteiner by the TB stallion Condrieu (a racehorse) and his rider has described him as a horse who doesn't make mistakes and forgives less-than-perfect riding.

(I don't know if this is typical of horses with his breeding, just that this is an example of a true amateur winning in the Olympics.)

Further to my last post, I decided I should look up the show jumper California. Turns out she correctly called California 45, Holsteiner, by Calido I and out a ..wait for it...Condrieu mare.

Hmmm...coincidence?

[YankeeLawyer]

Heidi Robbiani's Olympic medalist mare Jessica V looked like she was very rideable.

[Coppers mom]

I don't think that all, or even most, or Olympic horses are the fire breathing dragons you guys are making them out to be. Of course, there are those that are hotter or quieter than average, but for the most part, they don't all need a pro ride (which is not the same as saying that anyone could plop around on them and make it through at the highest levels. Someone who is already capable of riding at that level).

Think about it, what makes them a pro ride? Being ridden by a pro. A pro will keep them tuned, and expect them to perform NOW. That's what makes them sensitive. Now, do you honestly think the horse would stay that tuned up if an ammy climbed aboard for a few rides? How many times have you heard someone lamenting that they had their horse at the trainers and he was amazing, but now, 2 months later, he's a lazy beast who won't move off their leg? These horses are made that sensitive because they need to be that sensitive to win. If they didn't have to be so reactive because their ammy owner wanted to toddle around and pop a change every once in a while, they wouldn't be so tuned up.

So, while there are some who will never be sensitive enough for a pro, and others who will only ever be sensitive enough for a pro, I think that the majority are what you make them.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The rule in breeding, as it was instilled into my head by a German Bereiter was that breeders breed for, so the trainer does not have to train for. Sensitivity and reactiveness is definitely something that has been bred for over the last 20 years.

It was said the purpose was to be easier for women to ride, rather than the older less sensitive horses. That works great for Anky and Nicole as they need the brilliance, but not so great for lesser riders.

Most Olympic level horses for Eventing, Jumpers, and dressage would be quite unhappy with a rider whose aids are not highly trained - poorly timed, or just plain incorrect. They would become quite frustrated, and it is why we see so many horses ridden for years by the "trainer", rather than the rider that the horse was purchased for. It is also why we see SO many riders moving to baroque (Freisians, etc) horses. They are less reactive, more forgiving.

[TKR]

Ok, let's look at some of the Olympic horses (past, present, whatever) because in the original post I *thought* I was asking about specific horses. So does anyone think that Bonfire, Salinero, Satchmo, Graf George, Gifted, Rembrandt or Painted Black (not Olympic, but certainly international) are ammie rides? What about Ratina Z or Baloubet du Rouet or Altair or ? (fill in the blank). Remember Teddy dumped someone out for a hack which resulted in his demise. Is it genetics or is it being finely tuned? Could you just finely tune any athletic horse to that level if the special spark isn't there? So what percentage would you say would be suitable for the average ammie rider? Even not so finely tuned, many of these horses presented their share of headaches to train -- read the accounts published over the years in magazines (just recently Catherine Haddad and Cadillac) -- there have been a fair amount. I just thought it was an intriguing question. Maybe we come up with a list of Olympic/International horses that have competed successfully with top European and American riders and see how many we would think have an ammie temperment. It's just an interesting discussion -- not an argument.
PennyG

[can't re-]

Golan was the res horse on the German Olympic show jumping team with Fraanke Sloothaak and certainly proved his talent in competition -5 YO European Horse of the Year and winner of GP's, Derbies and Speed classes. He was well known for his fantastic temperament. Golan was competed and hunted by his true ammy owner and was 4' conformation circuit champion at WEF.

[Coppers mom]

Ok, let's look at some of the Olympic horses (past, present, whatever) because in the original post I *thought* I was asking about specific horses. So does anyone think that Bonfire, Salinero, Satchmo, Graf George, Gifted, Rembrandt or Painted Black (not Olympic, but certainly international) are ammie rides? What about Ratina Z or Baloubet du Rouet or Altair or ? (fill in the blank). Remember Teddy dumped someone out for a hack which resulted in his demise. Is it genetics or is it being finely tuned? Could you just finely tune any athletic horse to that level if the special spark isn't there? So what percentage would you say would be suitable for the average ammie rider? Even not so finely tuned, many of these horses presented their share of headaches to train -- read the accounts published over the years in magazines (just recently Catherine Haddad and Cadillac) -- there have been a fair amount. I just thought it was an intriguing question. Maybe we come up with a list of Olympic/International horses that have competed successfully with top European and American riders and see how many we would think have an ammie temperment. It's just an interesting discussion -- not an argument.
PennyG
I think that's hard to say percentages or numbers. Many of these horses have never had an amateur sit on them, so how are we to know? Had they been brought along by an Ammie, some of them may have fit the bill perfectly, and others may not have. Gina Miles is an amateur, but who's to say McKinleigh wouldn't have been more of a pro ride if he hadn't been brought up that way?

Another thing is that these horses are in absolutely crazy environments. Even the most Ammie-Proof horse would go a little bug eyed over some of those arenas. How do we know they wouldn't happily truck an Ammie around at the same level, but at a different local?

[subk]

There is something a little silly about the question: "Could the average ammy ride an Olympic level horse at the upper levels?" Well no. The "average ammy" can't ride any horse at the upper levels. And any ammy riding in the upper levels isn't average. But I know plenty of upper level horses that have successfully become mounts for average ammies at the level those average ammies can ride.

My own long listed horse (admittedly still a few steps from the Olympics!) who was long listed with me, an ammy, packed a friend of mine through her first Training level event after he retired from UL competition. What's interesting about the story is that he was considered anything but an ammy ride by my trainer who had ridden him on occasion--he had previously competed at the WEG so probably had a good idea what he was talking about. (His own Worlds horse competed at N and T with an ammy and even received the comment "horse has potential" from a dressage judge who obviously didn't know the horse or his age.)

In hindsight, I'm not sure my hyper-sensitive, super atheletic, quirky as hell, non-ammy upper level horse (who was being ridden by an ammy) could have survived the average upper level pro's program.

But I strongly agree with the poster who said most of you aren't giving the horses enough credit. Most horses adapt. Even upper level, ultra sensitive ones.

To the question, in eventing I think Northern Spy and Dobbin could do the ammy thing. Of course, both riders didn't become full fledge pros until they had success with those particular horses. In general I think most of the horses that ran Rolex could transition to ammies--but not necessarily as UL horses.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Golan was competed and hunted by his true ammy owner and was 4' conformation circuit champion at WEF.

That is an example of one type of amateur rider, but I would say over 90% of the amateurs would be too afraid to ever jump a 4' fence or foxhunt.

[can't re-]

That is an example of one type of amateur rider, but I would say over 90% of the amateurs would be too afraid to ever jump a 4' fence or foxhunt.

I didn't want to go on and on :) - but Golan was also ridden by a tiny pony rider and could be ridden bareback to the breeding shed and back out to his field when he was done. His amateur rider competed him in 3'6" and lower classes. Golan is well known for his exceptional temperament.

[Florida Fan]

It depends----there are a few ammys who ride lots of horses every day, fit, have an accurate eye, are effective riders. I see them in the GPs here in Wellington on some awesome horses, but the Olympics are quite another story. My opinion is that if an Olympic horse is truly fit, ready, and "on their game", an ammy would not be a winning bet to ride that same horse around any Olympic course. Hacking them, playing with some lower fences at home may happen, but not the norm.

[M. O'Connor]

I'm not talking about an amateur being able to hack a horse on their own every once in awhile, etc. I'm talking about an amateur rider being able to ride/train/show Olympic horses at the upper levels, not necessarily just the Olympic levels though. I'm assuming the horse you are speaking about was still being schooled/shown at the higher levels, hence, being able to express his talent and abilities still on a regular basis and not getting completely bored.

All I am saying is, if that talented horse was taken over by an amateur at a young age, and let's say never did any more than 2'6" hunters their entire lives, I think that rider would have a holy terror on their hands, as they would be holding the horse back from their natural talent and athletic ability. I think that horse would become quickly and easily bored.

At the other end of the spectrum is...would that Olympic level horse do as well at that level with a good amateur as compared to being ridden by a pro? pony girl stated it well...there is a big difference between being able to hack a horse and getting around a Grand Prix course or test! Whether we like it or not, some horses are "pro rides". Whether that's due to temperament, sensitivity, athletic ability, etc. I find many of those horses exist at the higher levels of sport.

I must absolutely disagree on this. There are certainly some horses that require the "pro ride." But with a few exceptions, probably the same percentage as in the general show horse population, there isn't anything inherent about top caliber horses, including Olympic ones, that would preclude them from being "amateur" rides.

The difference is that the professionals who ride them have accomplished their goal of developing them to the extremes made possible by the amount of talent they have.

Amateurs do not generally set their sights on that agenda, due to limitations on time, for the most part, and money, in other cases.

[idlemoon]

I think it depends on the horse.

In my real life experience, I started as a working student for a 2 x Olympian. Her Olympic mount was in semi- retirement. He was being shown by a very talented young rider in the young rider tests. I then got the ride on him after several months of working at the farm. I started as a mediocre first level rider. I started showing this Olympic mount at second level. Over the course of the next year or so, I ended up showing him to PSG. However, at home I could do all the GP movements in a snaffle. It ended up his owner then wanted to try to qualify him for the World Cup in France later that year. So, during the selection trials for that, I would still ride him every day, she would get on a couple times a week. Even though this horse was being ridden by an ammy daily, with some tuning up by his owner, he did end up being the US representative for the Wold Cup that year.

Now could I ride this horse pretty good, but was I ever going to get out of him what his owner could? No, no way, but I could pull scores in the high 60's at PSG in pretty nice company. This horse was a phenominal talent, with a heart of gold. He was Holstiener bred, but I do not know his bloodlines, I wish I did. He tried so hard for me, and his owner every moment you were on him.

Lisa

[Fairview Horse Center]

I didn't want to go on and on :) - but Golan was also ridden by a tiny pony rider and could be ridden bareback to the breeding shed and back out to his field when he was done. His amateur rider competed him in 3'6" and lower classes. Golan is well known for his exceptional temperament.

I have no doubt that is true, but he has a solid older pedigree from when Europe was breeding less reactive horses. Sadly, the G-line is almost gone, and Ferdinand's type too. These horses are not the kind of horses competing in todays Olympics.

Germany's breeding goals were specifically to get away from Golan's type. They said they wanted to breed a horse that was more reactive, so riders would have a much easier time getting the brilliance.

[Fairview Horse Center]

When Rembrandt was spooking at the statues in the corner of the arena at the 1996 Olympics, at the age of 17? that is a VERY hot horse.

[YankeeLawyer]

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why a lower level ammie should be piloting an Olympic horse? I like to drive but do not commute in a Formula 1 racecar.

[Equilibrium]

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why a lower level ammie should be piloting an Olympic horse? I like to drive but do not commute in a Formula 1 racecar.


I love this!:)

Terri

[omare]

I think the difference is a formula one race car we can all look at and identify it as such-it is what it is-- an olympic caliber horse may not be that unless and until ridden/trained by an olympic caliber rider/trainer. ;-)
(wasnt nona garson's little chestnut horse a hot russian "school" horse for while?)

[Daventry]

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why a lower level ammie should be piloting an Olympic horse? I like to drive but do not commute in a Formula 1 racecar.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Coppers mom]

When Rembrandt was spooking at the statues in the corner of the arena at the 1996 Olympics, at the age of 17? that is a VERY hot horse.
How does spooking at something different and scary make a horse hot? My 19 year old is usually manly enough to hold himself together, but sometimes he has his pansy moments too. Doesn't make him a hot ride, just makes things like screaming children, umbrellas, and waving trash bags scary. Now, if he had spooked at say, the dressage letters like my darling psychopath mare, then I'd be more willing to call him hot.

[Indy-lou]

Olympic Idocus is currently being ridden and shown by junior rider Ashley DeGroot of DG Bar. I believe Idocus is now 19 years of age. He has a few years on Ashley.

[idlemoon]

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason why a lower level ammie should be piloting an Olympic horse? I like to drive but do not commute in a Formula 1 racecar.

Why not? I worked hard for it. I worked the whole barn, mucking, feeding, turnout etc... I did not ask to ride him, crap I was happy just to be able to groom a horse of this caliber. The owner told people that the horse had never been taken care of better. I also rode 5-8 other horses a day from green broke to other GP mounts. So it's not like the Olympic horse was the only horse I had to learn from.

There are kind and generous people in this world who would give a kid like me a chance at a dream I would never otherwise have.

I posted about my story to state that there have been other Olympic horses, with phenominal temperments and giving heart to tolerate ammy riders, not to debate whether or not it should be done.

Lisa

[Fairview Horse Center]

Olympic Idocus is currently being ridden and shown by junior rider Ashley DeGroot of DG Bar. I believe Idocus is now 19 years of age. He has a few years on Ashley.

Ashley is one HECK of a Junior rider, and he is 19. ;)

[JER]

John Whitaker always said that Milton was an easy horse to ride.

Another one of his great horses, Welham (1996 Olympics, won the Hickstead Derby at age 20), was owned by an amateur who rode him until his mid-teens very successfully; I think she won the YR champs. She then asked John Whitaker if he was interested in riding him, mostly to see what the horse could do on a higher level. Welham went on to compete in the Olympics and win a staggering amount of money (over $1 million) until he retired at 22.

After that, he competed in veterans' showing (for older horses in the UK) and foxhunted. He died last year, closing in on 30.

Welham's sire was the TB stallion Hayrick. You've never heard of him because Hayrick's job description was 'teaser'. Really. He was notable for being very long in the back and a failure on the track. Welham's mother was an obscure mare called Volgar who was apparently so outstanding she was bred to a teaser.

Welham was a winner. This horse would have succeeded at anything he tried. He would easily have been a top eventer or show horse.

(there's a tribute to Welham here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip9n25_xj7g) w/pics)

[vtwmbld]

I'm totally in agreement with you, Idlemoon. I also had the good fortune to ride a veteran olympic horse (jumper). He was so kind and would cart my sorry **** over all kinds of fences that were way beneath his level. He DID jump me out of the tack once publicly (to my great embarrassment), but it sure taught me a lot and it wasn't his fault that I had too loose a seat. I had a well known instructor at the time who would put us juniors through chutes with no stirrups and no reins in an effort to make us better riders. He always matched the "big time" horses with the less experienced riders. There were hairy moments, but it was a fabulous opportunity for the juniors. The horses would then get put back together with their "real" riders and compete in a Prix des Nation or Grand Prix and be very successful. There were very few of these upper level horses that couldn't go back and forth. Admittedly, there were some, but they weren't necessarily the most talented - just the most difficult. None of us were beginners, but also not pros. By the way, this was a long time ago in a less litigious society.

[evans36]

To my mind, after reading this whole argument, there's a lack of clarity in the question. Because the fact is, you have a wide gamut of amateur riders. What defines an amateur is simply whether or not they make $ on the sport. Plenty of folks are awesome riders and can stick to just about anything any day, but don't do it for cash. Plenty of folks around here teach little children to keep their heels down and eyes up but couldn't handle a really fit TB, much less an Olympic-fit horse, but they're professionals.

Basically what I think we're asking about is tolerance in the horse. Just like people, there are tolerant horses and there are less-tolerant horses. But I think tolerance is something people and horses gain and lose as they use it. For example, I went to a very elite university. When I graduated, I had been there for long enough to think that was normal. Lots of things in life frustrated me - stupid people at the checkout who had to call a manager because they couldn't find a barcode almost blew me up. And I'm not a mean or pompous person who really thinks that much of my own intelligence. I just wasn't used to dealing with folks on a daily basis who made lower than a 1400 on the SAT (although admittedly, several of them were frustrating in their lack of common sense as well). After 5 years living back in the real world, I'm not like that anymore. I wasn't like that before I went to college, and I wasn't like that immediately upon entering college. It took some training to make me like that, and it took some letdown time for me to get rid of that. But I bet it wouldn't take much time at all for me to get like that again if I went back.

The point of this is not whether I'm a bitch. The point is learned behavior. Riding my trainer's GP horse pissed the horse off because my leg swung and she thought I was asking for fancy movement things and being unclear. So she swished her tail and kicked up. I stayed on. I tried to keep my leg still, and she tried to forgive me, as I tried to understand what she needed and give it to her more precisely.

I think that 90% of horses, when ridden by a reasonably competent rider who is sympathetic and understanding, will adjust themselves. The person might come off once or twice, but unless the horse is just flat mean, or has no brain, he will adjust, even if there's a period in the beginning that is uncomfortable and annoying for both. Horses with no brain generally are not pro horses. Horses that are flat mean can be, but someone has to bring them to the pro, if you know what I mean, and meanness severely limits the chances of the horse getting discovered and increases the chances of its standing in a field for the rest of its life, doing nothing.

So - is the question, can this horse adjust to a tolerant, if less-experienced ride, over time? or is it, can the horse adjust as above but immediately, and go back and forth between a pro ride and the less-experienced ride on a regular basis? I think most horses can do the first. I think it will take a more special, but certainly not really rare horse to do the second. I am pretty sure the question is not "does the horse care if its rider makes money in the horse trade." ;) I disagree with the poster above who thinks that the general definition of amateur rider is one who can't foxhunt and needs the trainer to mount up first on a windy day. That's the definition of a TIMID rider, and a totally different question. I think the horse that can carry an easily-intimidated, timid rider just as well as he carries a pro is a true needle in the haystack.

[Fairview Horse Center]

So - is the question, can this horse adjust to a tolerant, if less-experienced ride, over time?

In many cases yes, but that is the point. Like what was taught to me, "What the breeder BREEDS for, the rider does not have to TRAIN for. "Tolerance", just like a horse with a weak loin connection, or not a very good trot, training can strengthen, and improve with a lot of work.

The GOAL of the breeder however, is to minimize the needed work for the intended rider/trainer. A breeder can breed for a highly sensitive/reactive horse, or they can breed for one that will naturally go, "whatever".

I disagree with the poster above who thinks that the general definition of amateur rider is one who can't foxhunt and needs the trainer to mount up first on a windy day. That's the definition of a TIMID rider, and a totally different question.

Again, like I said before, there are different types of amateurs. Timid riders are one type, and generally the most common type.

I think the horse that can carry an easily-intimidated, timid rider just as well as he carries a pro is a true needle in the haystack.

Yes, and that is why we need to breed horses for different types of riders. Just because a rider is timid does not mean they should not have a talented horse. It also does not mean they should have to always purchase late teen models with lameness issues. Those timid riders when paired with the right horse, even a young one can ride on that windy day, even without their trainer to hop on first. :winkgrin:

There are FAR more of those timid amateurs than the gutsy ones. Riders also tend to become more timid as they age (I am talking after 25 or 30, not 60)