Birdstone: Semi-Obvious Question

[InstigatorKate]

I was thinking after the Belmont yesterday that if Birdstone won in 2004, this year's 3yos must be his first crop on the ground.

So, first crop has a horse that is Canadian Juv champ, then wins the Kentucky Derby, 2nd in the Preakness, and 3rd in the Belmont.

Plus, another who WON the Belmont.

Not too shabby. What will be the effect on his stud fee? Anyone else know how the rest of his first crop is faring?

ETA: current stud fee is $10k LFG, but THAT will go up!

[Rubyfree]

Don't forget Stone Legacy, who finished second (twenty lengths back, but still second) to Rachel Alexandra in the Oaks.

I believe this is also the first crop of three year olds for Medaglia d’Oro, who has a slew of stakes winning fillies to his name- and he is standing for 60k at the moment.

I would expect that Birdstone's fee will go up, yes.

[5]

I think it may go to low six figures. If the next years crop does well it may well hit seven figures before the end of his career. (Of course with inflation going the way it has seven figures may buy you a new econobox car in five years.)

[LaurieB]

I think it may go to low six figures. If the next years crop does well it may well hit seven figures before the end of his career. (Of course with inflation going the way it has seven figures may buy you a new econobox car in five years.)

There hasn't been a seven figure Thoroughbred sire in nearly 25 years. I doubt very much that we'll see one again in my lifetime.

Right now, the group of sires that command six figures is small and extremely select. Birdstone has a long way to go before he can earn his way into that group.

[Rubyfree]

I think it may go to low six figures. If the next years crop does well it may well hit seven figures before the end of his career. (Of course with inflation going the way it has seven figures may buy you a new econobox car in five years.)



I highly doubt that. The group of stallions commanding six figures is very small- and it is truly rarefied air up there. Think AP Indy, Unbridled's Song, Giant's Causeway. I do not know of any that have stood for seven.

I would think that a fee in the range of 30-60 k would be reasonable (in that world- not reasonable to me! :lol:), but there was some press right after the Derby from the farm stating their intent to keep his fee low to keep him more 'accessible'. That was before the Preakness and Belmont, so who knows now, but I can't see anything in the area of six figures, at least not yet.

ETA: What LaurieB said. Sorry, didn't read, just replied!

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I think the only stallion that ever stood for seven figures was Northern Dancer at the tail end of his career, to a very small book of select mares. Given what he had produced by then, and how the market was in the 80's, they could get away with asking that. As has been said, those conditions will unlikely ever be repeated, a perfect storm of amazing stallion and overinflated market.

[VirginiaBred]

I highly doubt that. The group of stallions commanding six figures is very small- and it is truly rarefied air up there. Think AP Indy, Unbridled's Song, Giant's Causeway.


Dynaformer is $150,000

[Drvmb1ggl3]

List of six figure stallions.

Galileo - Private, reportedly around €200k (~$275k)
Kingmambo - $250k
AP Indy - $250k
Monsun - Private, was €150k (~$220k) last year
Encosta de Lago - AUS$220k (~$175k)
Montjeu - Private, reportedly around €125k (~$175k)
Dynaformer - $150k
Smart Strike - $150k
Distorted Humor - $150k
Street Cry - $150k
Danehill Dancer - Private, reportedly around €100k (~$140k)
Unbridled's Song - $125k
Giant's Causeway - $125k
Awesome Again - $125k
Deep Impact - 12m Yen (~$125k)
Pivotal - GBP65k (~$100k)
Dansili - GBP65k (~$100k)

Any others?

[Mara]

I think both Darley and Gainesway will hold off on doing anything pending results from both stallions' current crop of 2-year-olds.

Right now, Medaglia D'Oro has 27 winners and 4 stakes winners from 82 starters. Birdstone was a bit less popular as a freshman sire and thus has only had 37 to start so far, with 19 winners and 3 stakes winners; given that 2 of the 3 stakes winners are grade I winners, not bad at all.

[dr j]

I think it will be very interesting to watch his stud fee over the next few years. Although I am sure he will have no problem filling his books with quality mares, I will be surprised if the commercial breeders go for him. His babies will probably not be very commercial even with this fabulous success.

I love him and hope to see his babies long into the future.

[Linny]

Birdstone will go up but not that high. The market is dreadful right now. Had he has this kind of success in a hot market, I'd see him going up to $40/50k. Today, maybe he'll double to $20k for next year. Remember, his fee wont be set til late this year. We'll have to see what his first crop does in it's entirety and if the momentum of MTB and SB can carry through the summer and especially into the sales of Birdstone's yearlings of 2009.

[Lincoln]

Dr. J - would you or someone else explain what you meant by "commercial" in the earlier post? Many thanks in advance.

[Mara]

What I do expect to see is that both stallions will be getting higher quality mares in their books.

And "commercial" appeal refers to a stallion's ability to produce babies who can bring very high sales prices. Right now those stallions are the ones who sire two year olds who win early and can get into stakes company during their two year old season. Generally, buyers don't want to have to wait an extra year or so to see if they'll get a return on their investment.

[Linny]

Dr. J - would you or someone else explain what you meant by "commercial" in the earlier post? Many thanks in advance.

Not to answer for Dr J but "commercial" means popular at the sales. Some very successful sires have never been hot tickets at the sales (Broad Brush comes to mind as does Dynaformer, pre-Barbaro) but are beloved by those looking to breed to race.
Commercial stallions are often sires of precocious babies with alot of speed. They hail from certain popular sire lines (Mr. P or Storm Cat) and often their "hits are grands slams and their misses are true bombs. Non commercial stallions may not be home run hitters but they consistently get you winners. Commercial stallions usually sire very striking looking, bigg-ish babies. Non commercial stallions sire plain or small looking babies in the mode of MTB.

[Glimmerglass]

Marylou (and hubby John) has said that she's wanted Birdstone's fee to be reasonable and accessable. I don't think that has changed at all. She very well might fight any rate increase - they aren't looking to make him into an ATM.

When they pegged him at $10k it wasn't like Birdstone was some unaccomplished race horse. His career ended from an unexpected chip not delusions of wanting to double her fortune from his stud fees. While he didn't win the Kentucky Derby (8th) and skipped the Preakness - he did win the G1 Champagne Stakes at 2-yrs old, the G1 Belmont Stakes and the G1 Travers Stakes.

Smarty Jones was priced for people who wanted to drop his name at cocktail parties.

[Mara]

Marylou is an absolute irreplaceable treasure in the Thoroughbred racing scene. She's a tremendous sportswoman and she has the best interests of racing at heart.

And I NEVER quite understood 100K for Smarty's freshman season. He was nicely, but not spectacularly bred, kind of plain-looking, IMO. If I were a breeder, that kind of money for a horse who really didn't have much in the way of a career on the track - nuh-uh. And I was a Smarty fan when he was running. I'm sorry to see he's had a slow start as a sire, but that honestly was a more realistic expectation than that he'd be the next Northern Dancer.

[dr j]

Not to answer for Dr J but "commercial" means popular at the sales. Some very successful sires have never been hot tickets at the sales (Broad Brush comes to mind as does Dynaformer, pre-Barbaro) but are beloved by those looking to breed to race.
Commercial stallions are often sires of precocious babies with alot of speed. They hail from certain popular sire lines (Mr. P or Storm Cat) and often their "hits are grands slams and their misses are true bombs. Non commercial stallions may not be home run hitters but they consistently get you winners. Commercial stallions usually sire very striking looking, bigg-ish babies. Non commercial stallions sire plain or small looking babies in the mode of MTB.

Exactly. There are many people out there ( maybe less lately but still a huge part of the market) that breed to sell (rather than race, although why on earth they have literally become two different goals is maddening... but they really have but that's a whole 'nother post!) - usually at the yearling sales. They want BIG, buff, muscular, correct youngsters with lots of black type in the pedigrees. I don't expect Birdstone's babies to ever hit that mark by the time they have to be selected for the yearling sales, or ever for that matter. And that's not a bad thing.

I love Mrs. Whitney too. I think it's important to always be cognizant of first of all the welfare of the horse and then the sport of TB racing. If we forget those two things we might as well hang it up because nobody really "needs" this sport any longer -but it would be horrid to lose it. Forgetting those two things would speed it's demise. Mrs. Whitney appears to cherish both. A true horseman and sportsman.

[Lincoln]

Thank you!

[summerhorse]

I would expect $30,000-40,000. If they go any higher than that they will end up chasing away their primary clients for him which will still be breed to race. I think his auction horses will go up in value but not THAT much (to warrant more than $50,000)

[texang73]

Marylou (and hubby John) has said that she's wanted Birdstone's fee to be reasonable and accessable. I don't think that has changed at all. She very well might fight any rate increase - they aren't looking to make him into an ATM.

When they pegged him at $10k it wasn't like Birdstone was some unaccomplished race horse. His career ended from an unexpected chip not delusions of wanting to double her fortune from his stud fees. While he didn't win the Kentucky Derby (8th) and skipped the Preakness - he did win the G1 Champagne Stakes at 2-yrs old, the G1 Belmont Stakes and the G1 Travers Stakes.

Smarty Jones was priced for people who wanted to drop his name at cocktail parties.

Well said. Didn't the Gainesway stallion manager mention that they still wanted to keep Birdstone's fee accessible despite the success of MTB? I tried to find it, but IIRC it was in a Bloodhorse or TB Times article recently...

[Glimmerglass]

Flashback to March 2005 and the Birdstone fee (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/08/sports/othersports/08horse.html?pagewanted=print&position=):

Of the tens of millions of dollars that Ms. Whitney has donated to or raised for charity, much has been directed toward horse hospitals, equine research and efforts to save used-up racehorses from the slaughterhouse. She treats breeders and owners of more modest means as equals. She courts everyday racetrack patrons with playful banter, and for her highly anticipated entrances at her annual summer gala in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., Ms. Whitney has arrived in everything from a Model T to a hot-air balloon.

Ms. Whitney stayed true to her populist form when an ankle injury forced her beloved Birdstone into early retirement in the days after the Breeders' Cup. She turned down multimillion-dollar offers from commercial breeders and decided to stand Birdstone as a stallion herself, just up the road from the C. V. Whitney Farm. She set a modest stud fee of $10,000 for each coupling with Birdstone.

"We don't need the money," she said. "And we wanted to make him affordable to breeders at all levels of the game."

This June 8th Bloomberg article suggests the stud fee would "soar" (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aLqWBWbCya9Y) - although its based upon nothing more then his recognition (and success) level going off the charts.

Birdstone’s $10,000 mating fee is now poised to jump at least four-fold next year, a surge that throws into question the industry’s preference for tall, powerful sires, according to Jim Squires, a Versailles, Kentucky-based breeder.

Michael Hernon, the director of sales at Lexington, Kentucky-based Gainesway Farm, which manages Birdstone’s stud career for Whitney, didn’t return a telephone call made to his office yesterday.

Hernon had declined to comment on a possible fee increase a day after the Kentucky Derby, saying in a telephone interview he didn’t want “rush into any numbers decisions.” The front page of Gainesway’s Web site says Birdstone is “booked full” for the 2009 breeding season. A stallion can be bred with 100 mares or more in a year.

Bill Oppenheim, a columnist for the Thoroughbred Daily News, estimates a $40,000-sire fee would push Birdstone’s value up to about $20 million. He said in an e-mail that the horse was probably worth about $2 million before the Derby.

Squires said he had tried to convince at least 10 friends and clients in recent years to breed a mare to Birdstone. Each time, he said, the answer was the same: “He’s too little.”



That’ll change this September, when broodmare owners begin looking at stallions in Kentucky as they plan their 2010 season, Chace said. Birdstone will be the “premier stallion breeders will look at,” he said.

The stud has caught the eye of trainer Bob Baffert, who was denied a fourth Kentucky Derby victory when Mine That Bird ran down his horse, Pioneerof the Nile, on a sloppy Churchill Downs track on May 2.

Baffert said yesterday that he told his wife seconds after Summer Bird crossed the finish line in the Belmont Stakes that “we got to go buy some Birdstones.”

Another thing about Marylou and her unwavering love for Birdstone (http://www.pittsburghlive.com:8000/x/pittsburghtrib/lifestyles/fitness/s_624461.html):

As a gelding, Mine That Bird can't follow Birdstone's success to the breeding shed, although Whitney and Hendrickson consider every achievement on the racetrack a tribute to their stallion. [b]At midnight after the Derby, they left a dozen roses at Birdstone's stall to salute him for the accomplishment.

[Rubyfree]

At midnight after the Derby, they left a dozen roses at Birdstone's stall to salute him for the accomplishment.

Gawd, I love MLW. Love.

[Summerwood]

Gawd, I love MLW. Love.

Ditto. Now that's a class act.

[5]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aLqWBWbCya9Y

[Glimmerglass]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aLqWBWbCya9Y

Article linked above in prior post ;)

[5]

Sorry.

[Glimmerglass]

Saratogian June 9, 2009 (http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2009/06/09/sports/doc4a2f2a9cd511f740274215.txt)

John Hendrickson, citing statistics from the Blood-Horse magazine, notes this is the first time a first-crop sire has had two classic winners. They have kept the tradition of the famed “Whitney blood” alive and well in the 21st century.

When he entered stud at Gainesway Farm in 2005, Birdstone’s stud fee was priced at $10,000, the figure that remained for the breeding seasons of 2006-09.

To put this in perspective, Birdstone was priced at one-tenth the $100,000 fee of Smarty Jones, whom he defeated in the Belmont, and one-third the $30,000 fee of Lion Heart, whom he defeated in the Travers.

Hendrickson’s philosophy was to not discourage anyone from breeding to him; he has not decided on a fee for the 2010 breeding season.

“We’re going to consider those people who went with us and remained loyal,” he said on Sunday afternoon. “But I’ll tell you this, I don’t think I have ever seen Marylou happier about anything than Birdstone doing this. I can’t tell you how much this means to her.”

[hessy35]

List of six figure stallions.

Galileo - Private, reportedly around €200k (~$275k)
Kingmambo - $250k
AP Indy - $250k
Monsun - Private, was €150k (~$220k) last year
Encosta de Lago - AUS$220k (~$175k)
Montjeu - Private, reportedly around €125k (~$175k)
Dynaformer - $150k
Smart Strike - $150k
Distorted Humor - $150k
Street Cry - $150k
Danehill Dancer - Private, reportedly around €100k (~$140k)
Unbridled's Song - $125k
Giant's Causeway - $125k
Awesome Again - $125k
Deep Impact - 12m Yen (~$125k)
Pivotal - GBP65k (~$100k)
Dansili - GBP65k (~$100k)

Any others?


Smarty Jones is private, but I thought he was at 100k

[Laurierace]

Smarty Jones is private, but I thought he was at 100k

More like 10k.

[Glimmerglass]

Smarty Jones is private, but I thought he was at 100k

Operative word: was

Rankings for second crop sires (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred-breeding/sire-lists/second-crop)

Smarty is 15th
Birdstone 2nd

[sm]

List of six figure stallions.

Galileo - Private, reportedly around €200k (~$275k)
Kingmambo - $250k
AP Indy - $250k
Monsun - Private, was €150k (~$220k) last year
Encosta de Lago - AUS$220k (~$175k)
Montjeu - Private, reportedly around €125k (~$175k)
Dynaformer - $150k
Smart Strike - $150k
Distorted Humor - $150k
Street Cry - $150k
Danehill Dancer - Private, reportedly around €100k (~$140k)
Unbridled's Song - $125k
Giant's Causeway - $125k
Awesome Again - $125k
Deep Impact - 12m Yen (~$125k)
Pivotal - GBP65k (~$100k)
Dansili - GBP65k (~$100k)

Any others?

Ghostzapper - $125k

[Glimmerglass]

As an aside it was only yesterday - July 3, 2009 - that one of Smarty Jones' offspring finally earned their first graded stakes win in the US. Ouch!

Backtalk won the Grade 3, $110,500 Bashford Manor Stakes (http://www.drf.com/news/article/105221.html)

Backtalk rewarded his many backers and became the first North American graded stakes winner for his famous sire, Smarty Jones.

[Glimmerglass]

Looks like some are just raking in the $$$ on the success of this spring and why look who bought a son of "little Birdstone": Sheik Mo!

BloodHorse 7-20-09 "Birdstone Colt Sold for $400,000 at FTK Sale" (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/51758/birdstone-colt-sold-for-400000-at-ftk-sale)

Sheikh Mohammed’s agent, John Ferguson, went to $400,000 to acquire a son of Birdstone as the top-priced offering at the opening session of the Fasig-Tipton Kentucky July yearling sale in Lexington July 20.

Ferguson acknowledged that by having two classic winners this year, Birdstone’s value has gone way up from his $10,000 fee when his now yearling crop was conceived in 2007.

"Any sire who can produce those two horses you have to take seriously," Ferguson said. "This was a very nice colt and Birdstone has blasted onto the sire scene with two classic winners. He is a sire who can do it. This was a very athletic horse so it made sense to follow through. He was a very balanced and correct horse."

He said the price was in line with what he thought the colt would bring.

[Glimmerglass]

Birdstone's fee will move from $10,000 to $30,000

Fee announced 11/13/09 for 2010 season (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/53448/birdstones-fee-upped-to-30000)

Perfectly reasonable and with his success in the shed a lot of other choices out there look silly with the rates.