Drivers from 60s and 70s - anybody here?

[twofatponies]

I'd love to hear any personal anecdotes from people who were driving competitively in combined driving in the era before everyone had a specialized marathon vehicle. Anyone here who drove back then and used a restored antique vehicle?

What kind of vehicle? (and with what horse(s))

Any anecdotes good or bad about the quality and performance of that vehicle?

This is for an article - if I end up wanting to use your anecdotes, I'll PM you to double check accuracy and get your name or other details.

Thanks!

[Cartfall]

I can only relay an anecdote that was told to me. I don;t even remember who told me. Just that he was an rather elderly gentleman. I was volunteering or gatoring perhaps over at Black Prong and there was conversation about the origins of CDEs. This gentleman told of driving an antique meadowbrooke with a jim bowie size knife taped in a sheath to the side of the shaft. He told of wild and woolie rides and carts being destoryed, wheels ripped off, etc. Sounds too wild for me!!! I prefer the wheels stay on thank you very much.,:eek::winkgrin:

[DrivingQueen]

you might check with some of the old guard from the ADS. I know that Debbie Banfield from the Gayla drove a 4 & pair of arabian (ponies against horses!) put to a Brewster slat sided phaeton. (i think, a brewster something big and bulky!) her hubby, dana actually modified it to put on brakes and a few other things, and now 20 some years later, he has it back at the gayla, restoring it to it's original condition!

about the wheels falling off, etc. most of our rules have been created because of instances like this. some of them even have names, like the "Jamie O'Rourke Rule". I don't know that there is one for him, just pulled the name out of the air.

also, the CAA has a video of the american team at their first 4-in-hand WC (the only ones there were in the beginning). It's an awesome video, really shows why they were called "hazards!"

some of the princes' books are great reading too!

[Thomas_1]

(Puts hand up...... BUT I WAS VERY YOUNG!) :winkgrin:

I was there right at the very start. But obviously in England. So please allow me to call it Horse Driving Trials for the purpose of this thread.

I'd known Sir John Miller, Sanders Watney and Tom Ryder virtually all my life and then as a young man I came to know John Mauger. I was appointed as an Area Commissioner way back. Right at the start it was offshoot of the British Driving Society and resultant idea born possibly from some of the more adventurous picnic drives! It sort of spurred off from the British Driving Society and though many seem to think it was for the younger and more adventurous, that was never the case and the majority of what is now "the old brigade" always maintained interest in poised and elegant pleasure driving AND horse driving trials. At the start we had to change the name from Driving Trials to HORSE Driving Trials because when we used to advertise our meetings (and a lot took place in small pubs!) folks kept turning up who wanted to rally mini cooper cars!!!

I used to scour round buying up old vehicles but then with other founder members we used to beg John Mauger to find anything he possibly could. John owned an Auction firm called Thimbleby and Shorland and we all unearthed a mass of vehicles that hadn't seen the light of day for decades. Mainly traps, gigs and dog and rally carts and a few Phaetons. I went through A LOT of Lawton, Stanhope, Dennet and Tilbury Gigs and memorably totally wrecked a Stanhope Phaeton. I still have one of my first demi-mail phaetons. The aim was to find vehicles that were easy to turn tight, easy on the horse/s to allow them to work well and could withstand the rigours of the cross country phase which was in those days genuinely a lot more challenging.

We were fortunate in having advocates for and participants in the sport who had huge estates and so the likes of Floors, Lowther Castles, Windsor Great Park, Sandringham, Castle Howard became venues. It's right and proper to give credit here to the Duke of Edinburgh for being the sports best advocate. Without his enthusiasm and motivation and persistence it would never be what it is today in the UK, mainland Europe or World stage. For sure it wouldn't be the global sport with FEI accreditation and we wouldn't have had the great venues and opportunity to improve and lead the way and still to this day do much better than the size of our piddling little island nation would seem to warrant.

The obstacles were called "hazards"..... but the advent of public sector Health and Safety Managers had their brains fried by that! So a quick change was required to appease the officials and bureaucrats. There was IMO more use of natural landscape features of these wonderful English Country Estates and so hazards often meant hurtling down a huge hill into a river bed and then up out round trees and all with red and white markers pinned on them.

The vehicles used to last 2 trials IF you were lucky! In the main it was the wheels that smashed up or off! Being an Engineer, I used to "beef up" the axles, suspension and replace wood with metal and I learnt to wheelwright VERY early on. I got so I could build a set of wheels in a week and ready for a weekends competition when they'd be wrecked! I always took spare wheels to an event. Then there was a blinding light and I built some of of metal and fitted on car wheel hubs to an old Gig and a Phaeton to trial. There was no turning back from that! I still have the first metal wheels I ever made - though now they're just standing up in the garden with flowers round them and as a testament to the past and to the history of horse driving trials.

Then having made the wheels metal to increase strength we also looked to make them as large as possible to raise the centre of gravity and give a smoother ride but this made the carriages tip over! And oh boy did they!!! So then a back step was added for the groom to reduce the top heaviness and to help get you round in one piece. The groom on the back made it so you had to have a sliding body on the vehicle to counterbalance the groom and then special cushions to attempt to hold the driver in place. Yes they often fell out!!! leaving the groom alone at the back!

In terms of horses, I used nearly all the typical "sports horse" types. Mainly because my riding interest was eventing and so a lot of my early horses were dual purpose eventers and drivers. I've posted a photo here before of one of my early 'adventures' whereby one of my driving leaders (advanced eventer) jumped a pole in the water hazard! If I'm honest I've had that happen 4 times at competition and twice training at home but only once when there's a photographer to catch the evidence!

I've a mass of photos from those early days ..... some even in black and white!! From time to time I've posted them on here when we've been talking about something particularly relevant or appropriate.

p.s. We never used to wear hard hats!!! I used to go dressed for the marathon phase as if we were off for a sedate country pleasure driving show class! I used to buy a cap or hat that fitted tight and sometimes even pad it underneath! Bizarre really because I always wore a hard hat at home training and wouldn't dream of not wearing one riding and I was one of the very first over here to routinely wear one when on BDS drives.

[pricestory]

I, too, am not that old, or maybe I am but was making babies, not doing horses during that time.
I did own one of the first "marathon" vehicles, made by a man local to Tryon, NC, Dave Portman. He made several which were used around the southeast. I really loved that vehicle. A friend, Dale Govus, whose husband was a metal worker, used a vehicle he made until just a few years ago.

[twofatponies]

I knew you'd chime in Thomas! Only half tongue-in-cheek I ask - was there any advantage to having a vehicle that would fall apart on impact instead of staying in one piece? Sort of like the advantages of an eventing obstacle that collapses when the horse hits it?

Probably not.

Pricestory - what about that marathon vehicle - was it much different than todays? What had you used before that?

[Thomas_1]

I knew you'd chime in Thomas! Glad I met your expectations :yes:
Only half tongue-in-cheek I ask - was there any advantage to having a vehicle that would fall apart on impact instead of staying in one piece? Well it was much easier to transport back home.

Sort of like the advantages of an eventing obstacle that collapses when the horse hits it? You mean like a suppository vehicle........................................

You put it up yourself :winkgrin:

[pricestory]

Before I got the 4-wheeler, I used a 2 wheel cart.
It was half wood, half metal. The body was metal with a wooden box under the seat, wooden dash and wooden wheels. It was cut-under and turned tight with a 5th wheel. It had rear drum brakes. There was a grooms stand on the back but you sure couldn't get over the wheels. It came to me used with 3 different sets of shafts. The wooden presentation shafts were curved like gig shafts and had metal underneath. I don't think I used them more than once. There were 2 pair of marathon shafts, one long and one short. I ended up having another set of steel shafts made because neither of the ones that came with it worked very well. I think the wooden wheels helped make it so stable because of the weight. It weighted 440lbs. Dave had made it for a lady who was very short like me and it fit me wonderfully.
Dave also made one all aluminum one which a friend still has.

[twofatponies]

I suppose this might be a dumb question, but are you acutally required to use a specific type of vehicle in the marathon now, or does everyone use similar modern vehicles because they're what works best and is safest? If you were feeling lucky, could you compete in whatever you found that you pulled out of the carriage barn?

[MunchingonHay]

I remember gatoring for my mom hanging on for dear life to the back of her back to back wicker trap trying to look for K markers over my shoulder. I was under the age of 10 and I am 33 now. Back then I was unaware how to keep time and we just high tailed it as fast as we could. One story that I remember, our pony was a bit shy going into water. So, coming up to a HUGE puddle in the path, she saw it, mom cracked the whip, and she lept over the puddle sending the antique back to back trap flying through the air and landing square in the puddle. IT WAS SO MUCH FUN but I do remember being white knuckled during the hazards. this was roughly 1980-1985. in the brandywine driving area. back when the Laurels was in Delaware, Gladstone was a proper horseshow venue, not a golf community with a horse show.

[twofatponies]

These are such great stories! I started driving after I saw an arena driving demo. I've never gotten beyond some pleasure shows, and I just can't afford to haul horse and cart around to shows this year at all. I do wish I had the time and money to get more involved. Maybe when I'm old and feeble. Sigh.

Keep 'em coming. They may not make it into this article, but perhaps will be worthy of their own article in the future!!

[pricestory]

At the lower levels you can still compete in almost anything. I competed my pony in Training level with a 2 wheel cart and did fine. We changed to a 4 wheel marathon vehicle when we moved to prelim. They are certainly faster but we weren't going fast at Training level anyway.

[Thomas_1]

I suppose this might be a dumb question, but are you acutally required to use a specific type of vehicle in the marathon now, or does everyone use similar modern vehicles because they're what works best and is safest? If you were feeling lucky, could you compete in whatever you found that you pulled out of the carriage barn?

The rules specify such as wheel width, weight of vehicle and how many grooms you can have on board and where they can and can't be.

You can compete with a 2 wheel vehicle in singles and tandems classes still.

You'd be stark staring bonkers not to use a purpose built modern construction vehicle. If you did anything else then you'd be in the same scenario I described in my first posting. With a carriage with wheels at risk of breaking and a horse unable to go at optimum performance.

[goodhors]

We did our first few CDEs, one a year all at the same farm, in a Roadcart and an antique Trap. This was mid to late 1980's. Not playing at Driving in the 60-70s! We did tool the old pony around the country roads for fun in the 70's as kids, thought driving her was a "dying art".

The owner of the farm holding CDEs was a Carriage Driving person, not really liking CDEs for their roughness, hard on the horses cramming and jamming thru hazards. Since she was providing the grounds, she set some basics for us to follow for horse safety. She required all animals to be kept at a trot, no cantering allowed with vehicles. All her roads and tracks were usable by her Pleasure carriages. Kind of like driving down a nice highway! We mostly drove antiques or carts then, and I can't remember ANYONE breaking anything beyond a pole or some small parts. Not any special built vehicles seen for Marathon, for several years after we started CDEs.

We thought EVERYONE did CDE like that!! What a shock when we stopped by to visit a fall Gladstone CDE for vacation! WOW, I think it took a couple days for our eyes to quite hurting from being opened so big!! What a vast difference in how to play the game, in all the Sections.

Our Trap was quite nice, but very tall, LIGHT, and had a reach. No sharp corners for us in turns. Hazards were pretty open and flowing, easy to drive with that vehicle, though the narrow tires cut in a bit. Used it for both a single and Pair of smaller horses, who had no trouble hauling it around the Marathon Course, thru the small stream of water, up the hills.

It really was more a Pleasure Marathon type drive than anything like a modern Marathon as seen now, AND we did make times required!

[Drive NJ]

When we started in the 1970s you drove what you had and there weren't any purpose built marathon carriages. Many singles drove to a Meadowbrook type cart - even a few authentic Meadowbrooks. I think Barb actually drove one show in a cart we found that had 'hammock springs' meaning the springs actually opened rather than closed with weight on them AND rode like a glider. Can we say seasick pills.

Removing names to protect the innocent. I didn't see the marathon on the original Gladstone (1976)... courses were a lot less spectator friendly back then. It was a 5 section marathon and hazards were in Section C - way out there. I know the water was a real river crossing and there were some mighty hills on that course. I believe everyone drove in antiques, just as Thomas said Suit and tie for many too, following the tradition from GB. Courses were built to be driveable with a normal carriage back then even though we only had novice and advanced levels (finish 2 marathons without elimination and you were supposed to move up). By then we were still doing 5 sections, but they had moved around a bit - A - trot roads and tracks; B - walk; rest stop 1; C - speed section I think it was either 17 or 18 kph; D - walk; followed by vet check then E - trot with hazards. Remember this was actually more pace oriented - no breaks in gate and you had a referee on the carriage to write down any problems on course. You trotted E from start to finish with no circling, deviating or stopping.

Back to carriages, There was a carriage called a "Shone Cart" after Victor Shone that a lot of people drove. It has double bend shafts and every once in a while they'd break at the bottom bend and the cart would pitch forward.

Not a lot more broken wheels than now, but hazards were more driveable then as they were designed to allow a cart through. Now you have to move into an expensive marathon vehicle almost right away if you want to compete. I remember shooting pics at Gladstone one year when J O'R came through a treeline to Hazard 1 driving a Hackney to a Stanhope Gig. His Ref (a local, but nationally known dressage rider) grabbed for armrest and screamed - "You didn't tell me we were at the hazards already", shut her eyes and moaned the whole way through

Remember reading about someone in England having a wheel come off and roll gently away - - - in Presentation! Think it was one of the Military teams. Remember reading about another English driver losing a wheel at a very important competition. Apparently he cut down and lashed a sapling to the axle where the wheel was supposed to be and off he went. Shortly thereafter, a new rule about having to have all wheels at the finish line came into being - and you think those rule geeks make this stuff up. Most rules probably have a specific name or names attached to them.

Ellen Epstein's dad used to compete a nice chunky white pair of Philly street horses on the marathon with a 3/4 roof seat brake (I think) - you want to talk high center of gravity. Alternatively, there were several Morgan drivers who competed in wooden wheeled Houghton carts (low center of gravity, but low vision too).

We've had the odd jump over hazard, out of reveted water jump/hazard but there was typically more problems with tree roots than anything else. Our last hazard one year was in a grove of trees and gated rather wide to be a good last experience on course. Of course, everyone raced like the dickens, got too close to the trees and ran up the roots for quite a few flip overs.

Most of the training events (non competitions) and many of the events were as Goodhorse described until 1983 or so when the push to get more involved in international competition came into play. Then it got more seriously agressive.

For those who weren't there...

Early events had

no hazard zones

no lettered gates (there was an uproar when that change took place - what do you think we're babies needing to be told which gate when)

No in and out - but did have marked 'hazard zone' which was 20 meters out from furthest gates and you were timed from entering anywhere on the zone to leaving anywhere on the zone with penalties for leaving zone
etc.

A bogey time in hazards which equalled no penalties for the hazard. Replaced by timing hazards to hopefully avoid racing to make bogey time

No k markers on course

MUCH longer course - more like 25 k

Speed section at much faster pace

Things change... hope somebody is keeping track

[Thomas_1]

How could I have forgotten to mention the days of the dreadful on-board referee!?

They caused a lot of controversary and difficulty over here in the 80's. They were often some well meaning hanger-on who didn't have the skill to do it. Here often from the hoity toity hunt followers country set. I've had them yell "Woa" as I've cantered into a hazard!!!! And scream as if they're on a fair ground ride!!!! Also drove a horse team and my leader was Molly. She was being very hot and hyper and I yelled "Molly, RIGHT NOW you evil bi tch" . My on-boarder slid right across the seat nearly on my knee. Turned out she was also called Molly!!!!

But my funniest was getting "dumped" with a great fat guy at Castle Howard. I registered a complaint as soon as I saw him! But it fell on deaf ears! We had to push and shove him to get him into the carriage and I hardly had anywhere to sit!! As I cantered into a hazard he looked like he needed a change of underpants and he grabbed hold of my arm! (the one with the reins!!!) My grooms had to counter balance his weight the whole time but despite their best endeavours we managed to tip him out in the 3rd hazard and I was disqualified.

Another silly rule! You had to finish the course with the well-meaning social-climber still on board!!!!!

The move to get rid of inappropriate, unfit and heavy on board referees gathered momentum and I well remember quite a few funny things as competitors lobbied those regulating the sport.

Richard Oddie a character from that era who drove 4 in hand DWB stallions was memorable. If he got an "on-boarder" he didn't like the look of when he took his team to the start and got his judge on the box seat, he'd then hand him the reins and dismount and say "just hold on to these, I've forgotten something". They used to fix a grip on the reins of 4 great big stallions and with a look of sheer terror. Though truthfully Richard's grooms were in command and heading the horses and they knew their job and weren't going anywhere. But it used to amuse all of us who had a sick and perverted sense of humour.

[SLW]

Also drove a horse team and my leader was Molly. She was being very hot and hyper and I yelled "Molly, RIGHT NOW you evil bi tch" . My on-boarder slid right across the seat nearly on my knee. Turned out she was also called Molly!!!!

LOL, fabulous story! :)

[SLW]

I remember shooting pics at Gladstone one year when J O'R came through a treeline to Hazard 1 driving a Hackney to a Stanhope Gig. His Ref (a local, but nationally known dressage rider) grabbed for armrest and screamed - "You didn't tell me we were at the hazards already", shut her eyes and moaned the whole way through.

LOL!

[twofatponies]

That's insane! An onboard referee? I can't imagine that would do anything but impede your ability to get around a course.

[Drive NJ]

And don't forget... that meant for singles you didn't have a navigator. Two seats in two wheeler = you and ref, no navigator

We were lucky that most of ours were good folks who could hold their own. We didn't like the change away at first especially since the evil drivers (can you tell we organized more than competed?) also managed to slip in any pace A, because you wouldn't be able to tell if someone broke gait without a navigator on board.

Another 'interesting' story of equipment in use...

We had one competitor who drove a very fast, very upright Hackney pony to a home made skeleton gig. This was not a lovely vehicle, nor was it easy to sit/stay in when in use. The seat was narrow both front to back and side to side and there was absolutely no where to hold on and bend out of the driver's way. A friend of mine refereed for her one time. It became clear as they drove up a rather long hill after the water hazard that something was wrong with the harness. The saddle seemed to be approaching the cart, sliding down the horse's back. Driver told her this was a first time out for the brand new harness and it was probably stretching, but don't worry, they'd be going downhill soon and it'd slide back in place :eek: :yes:. The cart was well known and generally hated by organizers and refs alike. Eventually a different cart was put in service for marathons which relieved us all until the ref reported back that while it had a lower center of gravity, the floor was wonky and there was nowhere with sound wood to put your feet and brace. That driver was the cause for inserting into general show rules (don't remember at the moment if it ended up in the rulebook) - The marathon vehicle must be sound and have room for a referee to sit, facing forward with a hand grip of some sort.

[Thomas_1]

That's insane! An onboard referee? I can't imagine that would do anything but impede your ability to get around a course. :yes: I was glad to get shut of them!

[LostFarmer]

Seeing as I wasn't born until 71 there wasn't much driving for me in the 60's or 70's. :D

[Thomas_1]

I'm not old. I just started very young. (yeh right!) ;)