Passing up a stallion for their owner

[Nes]

There is a certain stallion who I keep coming back to look at. I quite like his movement, his colour, his breeding. However, on the breeders page they have photos of them doing things like: putting a filly on a couch in the house, laying down in the pasture with their hoses, and lots of desensitizing work on foals. Including trailer loading them at 4 days old, working with them away from mom at 2 weeks, ponying them all over the property at 6 weeks.

Now these people didn't breed this stallion (they purchased), and he's really quite nice; but I don't think I can get over the prejudice I have against these people and pay them for their stallion's service. It would be shipped, so it's not like they'd be handling my mare, it's just that I think they are NUTS!

Anyone else ever give up on a nice stallion because you didn't think the owners were all there?

note: I doubt when I do go to breed my mare I will have the additional financial resources to fly down and visit these people in person so I have to base my opinions on what they put on their website, unless they decide to come here.

note #2: I have nothing against desensitizing foals! Not a bad thing, I just don't think I'd sack out a 12 hour old foal. Thats a little much IMO. I wish someone had done desensitizing work my mare, then maybe she couldn't be scared of the plastic-bag-buggy man. I just think these people are being overly ambitious. Let foals be foals man :p

[misita]

If you really like the stallion, breed to him. They just seem really enthusiastic about their horses which can be a good thing.:)

[Iron Horse Farm]

Run away! These type of people end up on Fugly horse and you won't be able to GIVE AWAY an offspring of that stallion.

[Nes]

The funny thing is that these people are producing some really nice foals! (and I'm sure they have great temprements! :lol:). They are selling in the $10-15 000 range for foals, for good reason. It wouldn't be fair of me to post photos of those horses (and turn this into a public bash thread) so you'll just have to take my word for it.

The things they are doing to the foals, however, would be PERFECTLY suited for fugly...

I can't imagine what this boy's former owner thinks of this; for their sake I hope they share the same philosophy.

They do some goods things though: they offer a discount on sale if you geld the colt (it's only $1000 - but that is quite responsible IMO). And their foaling stalls have pretty pictures painted on the walls, that's cheerful... :lol:

[RiverOaksFarm]

and you won't be able to GIVE AWAY an offspring of that stallion.

This was sort of what I thought reading the OP. If you may be selling the offspring, I think it's a totally valid concern to want to stick with stallions with owners and websites that don't scream "crazy!"

However, if you're breeding for yourself, I guess I wouldn't care so much, as long as I trusted the owner was sane enough to honor the contract, get the semen collected properly, and be reliable when it came time to collect/ship.

[JB]

I think if more people took a more active role in desensitizing foals to "life", there would be a lot fewer threads on nasty, pushy, aggressive big adult horses ;)

Sacking out a 12hr old foal isn't necessarily wrong. It can be done to the extreme, and you end up with a foal/horse who doesn't respond to ANYTHING. But *proper* sacking out and desensitizing is about teaching him to ignore things that should be ignored (ie plastic bags "attacking") AND teaching him TO respond to things that should be responded to (ie moving away from pressure). You can't work on the latter until you work on the former to some degree.

Trailer loading a 4do foal - what's wrong with that? Life is new, why not show them that hopping on the trailer is just part of it? What if the mare has to be rushed to the hospital when he's 4 weeks old. Would you rather him go "oh, trailer, sure thing, NBD", or would you rather suddenly wean him because he's a bit freaked out and mom cannot wait?

Teaching a foal that he can be taken away from mom, and brought back, is a bad thing...why? Sounds like it's setting up a great environment for him to be living in a 2-horse situation where a buddy regularly leaves...but comes back.

LOTS of people lay down in the field with their horses. Even their stallions! Kids, adults, foals, ponies, horses, mares, geldings, stallions. I LOVE the picture of Claim to Fame lying in the grass with his human sitting beside him :D

I sure don't have a lot of respect for a lot of the issues that Fugly takes exception to, and would not put a lot of faith in whether they would or wouldn't influence someone buying a foal from a particular stallion.

You yourself said this stallion's foals are *already* selling for $10-15k, so apparently it's not like it's an unproven, unknown stallion.

[RiverOaksFarm]

You yourself said this stallion's foals are *already* selling for $10-15k, so apparently it's not like it's an unproven, unknown stallion.

Of course, we also just had a thread on here not too long ago, about how common it is for sellers to lie about what they sell their horses for, lol...... Who knows what to think any more!

Also, I didn't get the impression the OP was worried so much "what fugly would think", but whether it was a good idea to get involved with an SO who may be "NUTS". ;)

[Nes]

LOTS of people lay down in the field with their horses.

But with both of you on top of a mattress?
You made some very good points though, especially about the mare having to be rushed to hospital.

I'm not sure it's proper sacking out when you are literally cutting holes in feed bags and sticking them on your 1/2 day old foals :confused:

(I do not believe this particular SO is on this board as I have never seen anyone post with their name/stallion's name - so there is no point in guessing)

[sid]

If the stallion is breeding-worthy and the foals look exceptional, then don't worry about crazy owners.

You're not buying the owners. Their craziness (or exuberance...whichever it may be) doesn't mean you'll get a crazy foal...and for those who buy their homebred foals, probably a only very desensitized one and that's not a BAD thing at all. :lol:

[JB]

Of course, we also just had a thread on here not too long ago, about how common it is for sellers to lie about what they sell their horses for, lol...... Who knows what to think any more!
I was basing my comment on this
They are selling in the $10-15 000 range for foals, for good reason.
which makes it sound like the foals ARE selling for that, not that that is just what they are advertised for.

Also, I didn't get the impression the OP was worried so much "what fugly would think", but whether it was a good idea to get involved with an SO who may be "NUTS". ;)
The OP didn't say that, but it WAS mentioned
These type of people end up on Fugly horse and you won't be able to GIVE AWAY an offspring of that stallion.

There are several stallions I will not use for my mares based completely on the behavior of their owners. Most of it is from the petty carping and nastyness see on this board. I will very likely never breed to any sort of dilute TB stallion, based completely on the antics of the dilute TB owners on this board.
I agree, but for me at least, which is what I think you are talking about as well, is that it's more of the ethical/moral/unpleasantness/nastiness/backstabbingness of the SOs as people, not whether they sack out a 12ho foal :)

But with both of you on top of a mattress?
What's different about a mattress vs a cushy field of grass? :) Unorthodox sure, but... :)

I'm not sure it's proper sacking out when you are literally cutting holes in feed bags and sticking them on your 1/2 day old foals :confused:
I think I'd rather *properly* introduce something like that to my foal than to be faced with having to pull a closed-front blanket on a wild child because he's cold and that's all I have available :)

[tidy rabbit]

If you like the stallion and think he would be a good match to your mare what do you care how the people interact with their horses? So long as the seamen is good and they are not going to rip you off, what business is it of yours?

While I might not agree with a lot of things people do with their horses I don't feel the need to try to educate them or belittle them based on one or two statements on their website or on a photo they post or a video.

If they aren't being cruel or abusing their horses in anyway what the hell does it matter to you what they do with their own animals?

[Nes]

I would say that if I'm giving them my business it does matter to me, in the way that they show both the stallion and the stallion's foals would intern effect how I could sell my own foal. What if I'm selling to someone who also can't see the sire or my foal in person? They are going to look these horses up on the Internet and see those same training methods and maybe jump to conclusions about the way I raise my own foals.

I didn't start this thread to be snarky about how these people choose to train their own horses (you're right TR it's nobodies business except those horses' owners). I just tried to explain the extent to which their training methods go IMO the extreme, so people can explain their POV (in a relatively informed matter) on this issue.

It would certainly be easier just to post the website and then let people judge - but I really don't think that is fair when these people are just trying to make a living, and really are producing nice horses. It's an entirely different matter when uninformed people are just breeding horsies because the foals are "swwooo cute!"

[tidy rabbit]

There so many nice stallions out there why bother with one that is owned by someone you think is a little nutty? Typically if I see something on a website I think indicates the owner is not the type of person I want to do business with I move on to the next site and don't give them another thought.

[Nes]

So Jas, even if that SOs stallion was an absolutely top performer (we're talking Olympics here) and you had a chance (and a compatible mare) to breed for free would you still pass it?

Forgetting for an instance that there is obviously a particular incident (or incidents) are you are referring too; where is the line you're going to draw between a stallion you would use, and one you wouldn't based on the SO's behaviour?

I think most SOs will bash other stallions a little, I don't think there is anyone who is point blank going to come out and say "X's stallion is much nicer then mine! go breed him!" because they wouldn't stay in business very long.

Please, lets keep this in the hypothetical - we don't need to drag up old fights.

(totally just being a devil's advocate now, this thread has caused me allot of thought)

TR - I've passed him up SEVERAL times, but he's just so nice I keep coming back to him, honestly. And I'm not breeding my mare for a few years, so I mean it when I say I've been looking at stallions for 3 years now, and I really like this guys build and talent for her.

[tidy rabbit]

I agree, but for me at least, which is what I think you are talking about as well, is that it's more of the ethical/moral/unpleasantness/nastiness/backstabbingness of the SOs as people,

Seriously? I need to start reading the stallion threads. :lol: Who knew?

[SilverSpringFarm]

They are going to look these horses up on the Internet and see those same training methods and maybe jump to conclusions about the way I raise my own foals.

I'm sorry but that really seems like a stretch to me. I would never in a million years think to have a bias against a foal because some "unusual" training methods were employed on some of the foal's siblings at the foal's sire's farm... (Whew, that's a mouthful!)

What does it have to do with the actual quality of the foal or the integrity of the foal's owner? All they did was make a purchase from the stallion owner. It's a business transaction, it's not a testament to the mare owner's belief system.

The mare owner has no control over what the stallion owner does and does not do with their foals and as long as the foals aren't mistreated or in danger then who really cares? One person's weird is another person's normal.... This is ESPECIALLY true when looking at anything equine. There are tons of STRANGE people, beliefs, and training methods in this business.

I can't even tell you how many times I've had the "Why are so many horsepeople crazy?" discussion with some of my riding friends!

[Mythology]

Wait- People can and do sign up for additional accounts to talk about their stallion and other peoples stallion while pretending they are someone else? Is this allowed? :confused: Um... please PM me and let me know who is doing this so I can avoid them! That is so tacky :sigh:

[Mythology]

The only reason I'd not breed to a stallion because of the owner is if the were endangering their horses, unethical or deceitful in buisness. Animal people are just weird. Not just with horses- have you ever known an exotic bird person?
Though I have chosen to breed to a stallion based on the owner's knowlage and experience when given the choice between two very similar stallions.

[SilverSpringFarm]

Animal people are just weird. Not just with horses- have you ever known an exotic bird person?


LOL. I have!

Second in weirdness only to reptile people...

[Nes]

You guys obviously havn't met fish people yet!! :D (not that I'm not one of them...)

Although I have to say I think horse people are oddest of all!!

[Mythology]

LOL. I have!

Second in weirdness only to reptile people...

And rat breeders for show, espically hairless rats... don't forget them!:lol:

[Oakstable]

I think of buying a breeding like buying stock in a company. I want an owner who will make good decisions that will increase the value of his stallion and the offspring.

Doing weirdo eccentric things doesn't work for me.

The sporthorse world is bound up in tradition. Why would people wear white britches if they didn't have to?

[sid]

Wow. I didn't know the predominently negative feeling here about SO's.

Most of those I know are absolutely stellar people who often turn away mares to get them to the stallion that is the best match for their mare...and will send business elsewhere. I sure do. Not that I network but for a few.

Talk about "bias" in this new world order where stereotyping or profiling is a no no. Guess not in the horse world.
:mad:

[JB]

I think of buying a breeding like buying stock in a company. I want an owner who will make good decisions that will increase the value of his stallion and the offspring.

Doing weirdo eccentric things doesn't work for me.
Then it becomes an issue of "what is weirdo eccentric" :D I'm sure there are practices that are common in some circles that are hardly heard of in others, therefore considered "weird", but in reality can be very good things.

[Indy-lou]

Of course this is a generalization, but "eccentric" could mean "difficult" when it comes to conducting business. I like business minded SOs, they make life so much easier for mare owners.

[Daventry]

If you like the stallion and think he would be a good match to your mare what do you care how the people interact with their horses? So long as the seamen is good and they are not going to rip you off, what business is it of yours?

If they aren't being cruel or abusing their horses in anyway what the hell does it matter to you what they do with their own animals?

I'm not going to comment on what this particular Stallion Owner is doing with their babies, because you are right, it's none of my business. That being said, if I am shelling out my hard earned money to a Stallion Owner so I can produce a wonderful foal to sell and promote, I want to make sure that stallion, and his offspring, are being represented in the best light!

I whole heartedly believe that producing a stellar and attractive foal that attracts a buyer is half what the stallion and mare produce together and half PR. If a particular stallion (offspring included) is being poorly promoted, not promoted at all or promoted in a bizarre manner that the general public frowns upon, how much do you think you will end up getting for that foal, as compared to breeding to a stallion that has been meticulously promoted along with his offspring?

A great stallion is a great stallion, but a poorly promoted one or one that is promoted in the wrong light will kill his career and the Fair Market Value on those foals. We may not like it or agree with it, but it's what happens in the public eye. We are quick to judge and scrutinize and breeders are more than willing to drag a "bizarre" breeder or Stallion Owner behind a truck for all to see and hear. :eek:

Like someone else said, there are too many wonderful stallions and Stallion Owners out there to deal with. Settling for one that might be improperly or poorly promoted could mean the death of your hard earned investment. So, to answer your question, it is my business when my mare is involved and I'm handing over good money to eventually produce a commodity, investment, etc.

I am both a Stallion and Mare Owner myself, currently standing three stallions, and we take our job very seriously. As a Mare Owner, I understand how important promotion is on both the foals and stallion and we work very hard to keep a good reputation, not only ourselves, but our stallions as well. Our goal is not only to help our Mare Owners produce stellar foals, but also make sure they sell for top dollar by making sure our stallions are promoted in the best light. That also means allowing ourselves to be scrutinized as breeders too! :yes:

[Oakstable]

Where's the sense of humor? I said something funny (white britches).

I need to get away from the computer and spend more time outside with the horses.

[DownYonder]

Yes, I know someone who booked to a stallion touted on another thread on this forum, but ran into difficulties with the owner when it came time to ship semen. The MO backed out and instead bought frozen semen from the stallion's sire. She lost $1500 (the SO would not refund her money), but the MO now has a lovely premium Oldenburg filly to show for it, by a very highly regarded stallion in Germany.

I also know several people who got turned off by a N.A. stallion owner's incessant crowing about her stallion and his accomplishments. They thought the SO was just a little too intense, and opted to use a stallion owned by more low-key SOs.

[Nes]

Dav. - great post!

Got me thinking too, maybe in this case it would be best for these people to create two separate enterprises. One for the stallions, and one for their training methods.

I think it would be very interesting to see (if it were possible to look up) the difference between the new owners and old owners (because the horse was recently sold) in revenue. The old owners did not produce photos anything like what are available from the new owners, and have a very respectable website with fantastic get photos from the stud.

[acottongim]

I may or may not use a stallion because of eccentric training of the foals - would depend on how extreme it all is and how it is promoted. A cute photo (like CTF with his owner) is one thing... a long list of photos with "crazy" behaviors and a poor website is another thing.

BUT I ABSOLUTLY would stay away from a SO because of their other behaviors. In fact, I have done so - and yes, even if it was an Olympic horse and the SO was "nuts" or unprofessional, or difficult to work with I would not use the stallion. It is just not worth it. There are many good stallions and many good SO's out there so why struggle, raise my blood pressure, and stress out over a poor SO????

[Mozart]

I think you should trust your gut. If your gut says...stay away....that would be enough for me.

[bpt]

What is fugly horse?

[Tamara in TN]

Wow. I didn't know the predominently negative feeling here about SO's.
Most of those I know are absolutely stellar people who often turn away mares to get them to the stallion that is the best match for their mare...and will send business elsewhere. I sure do. Not that I network but for a few.
Talk about "bias" in this new world order where stereotyping or profiling is a no no. Guess not in the horse world.
:mad:


there are some nutty folks in the world that one just cannot afford to be around...I found that out three seperate times and afterward people would say "oh well I thought you knew about his <insert mental case property>" or" sure she's never met a person or a horse she liked more than 90 days"" and so on...

I have my own stallions now for that very reason...I'm in a minor never matters anyway breed so I guess it's not important, but picking a stallion to breed to in many ways implies that you are showing a support of and trust in the owners to do their share (breeding care paperwork followups if at all) and there are some people that one simply cannot do that with

regards,

[Foxtrot's]

Can you register the offspring?? There are a lot of approved stallions out there but sometimes the owners do not keep up the licencing every year which means you will have to pay for his licencing for that year and it gets complicated. Likewise with a stallion that has a checquered career with ownership changes/legalities...make sure you will get the proper paperwork.

It would be advisable to take a good look at the offspring, mares, etc. and perhaps spend the $ to go see him in person. I have bred sight unseen but the stallion was from Hilltop Farm and I believed I got good advice from Suzanne Hassler, back in the day.

The advertising might be great - better to personally check him and them out. It is hard to do breeding hoping to not have to spend so much -- stuff happens, ask me!

[Waterwitch]

I too will stay away from certain stallions because of their owners. Life is too short.

I do not wish to use my hard earned cash to financially support someone whose breeding, business, or advertising ethics are questionable. I particularly stay away from the really barn blind types who have never met a uterus their horse can't improve and find a way to insert an advertisement about their stallion, or progeny of their stallion, in every bulletin board post regardless of the topic. I also avoid SO's who misrepresent their horses.

There are enough wonderful stallions owned by honest and genuinely knowledgeable stallion owners out there - no need to settle for less.

[STF]

99% of the horse industry is crazy, so as long as your here - you can run, but you cant hide. :lol:

[STF]

Where's the sense of humor? I said something funny (white britches).

I need to get away from the computer and spend more time outside with the horses.


I laughed.....

[Kyzteke]

But with both of you on top of a mattress?
You made some very good points though, especially about the mare having to be rushed to hospital.

I'm not sure it's proper sacking out when you are literally cutting holes in feed bags and sticking them on your 1/2 day old foals :confused:

(I do not believe this particular SO is on this board as I have never seen anyone post with their name/stallion's name - so there is no point in guessing)

Maybe they are just having fun with their horses? We can't have that, can we?

I wrapped one of my mares in a 20' hay tarp once...just to see if I could. We use to put brown wool gloves on the ears of one of my geldings and call him a reindeer.

Don't get me started on how much fun it is to dress up the dog (this usually follows several adult beverages)!!

Sounds like these guys spend alot of time with their horses and the horses do not seem to object.

Personally, I think you ARE trying to embarrass them in public -- why in heavens name would it matter how they handle their horses when all YOU want from them is semen? Yes, you are giving them your money, so if you feel that strongly, go else where.

[oharabear]

In my neck of the woods, there is an absolutely gorgeous stallion, impeccable bloodlines, can jump the moon, has the sweetest, puppydog personality. He owned by a riding stable that has a less-than-stellar reputation. As in, it's the "scary" riding school in town, and they mortgaged their property to import this stallion. I LOVE him. I would not breed to him, and it's a shame.

I have seen several of his offspring for sale in the area, and as far as I can tell, none of them are moving. One has been for sale for over a year, with the price already far lower than what a horse of the caliber should be. I am convinced it's because of their reputation.

And even though I personally keep going back and forth on that stud, I have decided that's it's unfortunate he ended up where he is, but I can't justify supporting their business because I have seen firsthand their quality of horse care. There are many other equally nice stallions from reputable farms that could use my business instead.

That's just my experience/opinion. Nothing based in fact. ;)

[Nes]

Kyz, If I were trying to embarrass them, wouldn't I have just posted a link and said look what these crazy people are doing?

I don't know why so many people on this thread have guessed at which stallion I am talking about but they are completely incorrect and obviously a little confused when Jas posted about a completely different situation and compared these two. As far as I know the SO most people are referring to has never done these sorts of things. Either way it's really not relevant which SO I am talking about because I was pointing out a certain type of behaviour, not certain actions.

I don't think it's just fun when you are almost half laying on top of a week old foal on a mattress (granted the seem to be in an enclosed sand ring). I've certainly put gloves on horses ears before, I think most people have. Personally I would never put a tarp over a horse, but that is MHO.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your very insight full comments, I think this is a very good thread for all present and future SOs to consider. It the same when you come on to a forum and post under your barn name, sometime you're going to have to play it politically instead of saying what you really want :D.

[JB]

Personally I would never put a tarp over a horse, but that is MHO.

It's really, really a good thing to do (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/rio/rio_tarp.jpg), honestly :) Rio was about 16 months here.

Really. It's not at all like just putting a towel or sock over a cat or dog, where it's just fun and they sometimes even seem to like that game.

Having the horse ho-hum about things over and under and around him is *critical* to the safety of a rider. Having the horse learn that it's not ok to act like a prey animal, flight or fight instinct in full force, when with a human. It's just not ok.

If one would never put a tarp over a horse, why put a blanket on? What if you have to suddenly put a blanket on the horse for whatever reason, and need to leave it on, unsupervised, and you find out the horse you thought was blah about things is absolutely terrified of the blanket being tossed over his back?

There are so, so, SO many valuable applications to playing with and having fun with the horse all in the name of desensitizing and teaching, the most valuable of which is teaching him how to behave when he DOES get scared. They ALL get scared at some point. All of them. The best thing you can ever do is teach your horse that running/kicking/striking/rearing/whatever is not acceptable. Stopping can be fine. Turning to face whatever's scaring him is fine. Bolting is not fine. You can never expose him in the safety of your home to all the things he will encounter in his life, but you can expose him to enough scary things, in your controlled environment, to teach him how to behave so that you, and often he, remain safe.

And the earlier you start with the horse - yes, even at a few hours old for some things - the easier those lessons are and the faster they become more ingrained in his mind as just how life is - you don't balk and you don't bolt.

[Lucky Duck]

Frankly, it really comes down to a safety issue (as JB said). Horses as a general rule are not 100% reliable, so might as well hedge one's bets. Horses that are blindly accepting of new situations or can control their fear and think through it are marketable.

It's called bombproof.

And when one's 6 month old weanling casts himself, repeatedly, one is very thankful that he remembers his "preschool education."

[Molly Malone]

Capone

[camohn]

I only pass on a nice stallion for a loopy owner if I think it will affect their ability to get me the little swimmers. IE if the SO is very bad about sending out breeding materials, returning phone calls etc. I am not so confident they will be there for me to ship the semen or submit breeding reports either. Although, if there was an issue of being an abusive owner (has not happened) in theory I would not support their business either.

[Gindarkh]

Nes-

I know of whom you speak, and I know them personally. That's all I will say on a public forum.

PM me for more information if you need it.

[Equilibrium]

I know the website and the horse OP is on about. Here's what struck me - horses all looked amazing and very well cared for. Place was very tidy and things were safe looking.

I am not a big fan of all the over desensizing, but I did think to myself, "hey I wouldn't mind owning one of those do everything foals!" For me I do trailer thing which is walking through with mom, the basics of what it means to be tied, basic grooming skills, and respecting my space and moving to pressure.

They actually didn't put me off in the slightest and I'm real picky. A little overboard, but when the place and horses looked so well, could really complain.

But to answer your question, I will not use certain stallions depending on owner. And in general, I'm checking out the place before I breed if I can. My money isn't going somewhere the physcial, not the on paper, horse doesn't come first. In other words, there's got to be a horseman/woman in the mix somewhere. The only way I'm going to know that is if I visit the place.
I don't really rely on someone telling me that information.

Terri

[EquusMagnificus]

I think of buying a breeding like buying stock in a company. I want an owner who will make good decisions that will increase the value of his stallion and the offspring.


I agree with you Oakstable, 100%.

The mere fact that you are asking the question means that you are uncomfortable with being associated with said SO. Don't do it if it doesn't feel right!

We all know what marketing is about, it's about perception. You might have the best horse in the world, if you can't get it into the right hands, therefore adding the perception of it being the best, it won't mean anything.

I will not associate myself with "weird" SOs or controversial registries for that very reason. It doesn't mean I won't be friends with weirdos :lol: but I won't do business with them. Business is business!! :)

[Equilibrium]

Can I ask one question of those who desensitize horses to everything? Are you all backing your horses too or do you send them away for that?

Just curious as I don't desensitize to everything under the sun, but I do back and ride all my youngters. They really aren't scary and trying to kill you because something moves. The ones who've grown up here since birth are a pleasure to start, like they're broke already. Alright they've all been blanketed well before we start the process, but still, anyone would think if you're not out desesitizing your horses, you'll have a disaster at breaking time and someone will get hurt. You should really know that's not the case.

Terri

[JB]

Ok, since several posters now have said they know who the stallion and owners are, I'll say that I do too and have seen what's on their site.

I. Love. It. For all the reasons my posts on this thread have said :)

[Coppers mom]

I would pass. Even if they aren't doing anything other than being a little overly enthusiastic, if I google the stallion and the website makes me go "eh", it's not a good thing. If you have a stallion that looks like he's in a world class facility, is well promoted, and the offspring are well promoted, it's going to reflect well on the foal. But, if the stallion is from Nutter Inc, well, it's going to reflect poorly on the foal. The image that he's a super high quality stallion producing classy offspring just isn't there. As wrong as it may be, image is a huge part of breeding.

[dressuursport]

As wrong as it may be, image is a huge part of breeding.

That pretty well sums up this thread.

I wouldn't want to be associated with questionable stallion owners or farms (or registries either, since someone brought that up also) and I won't support them with my hard earned money. There are absolutely stallions I would pass over because of their owners. I'd rather give my money to someone I can respect and be proud to do business with.

[Oakstable]

I laughed.....

Thank you, LaNet.

Would someone pls email me the addy for this stallion?

He is getting great free advertising.

oakstable@gmail.com or oakstable@aol.com

Thanks.

[nycjumper]

If the stallion owner is crazy or has questionable practices, I wouldn't consider them. There are several SOs who post on here that quite frankly I think are nightmares. And as a reader, I notice. And when friends have considered breeding to those SO's horses - I made sure to point them towards those posts where they showed that. And all decided against breeding to the horses based on their owners' behaviors.

I have commented before but I don't know if breeders realize how many people lurk or read threads and how much impact (positive and negative) their online behavior can have.

[sid]

I've only looked at this thread spottingly. Are people more interested in the marketing of the product...or the product itself? Maybe I'm being dense.

If the "product" (e.g. offspring) is good and desireable, and registerable to the MO's desire/liking...who cares if the marketers in your eyes are nutty? SO or some other individual.

That product is coming to you at a young age... and you walk away, enjoying your product that is young enough to do that which you want to do with it ...to be accepting, friendly and willing at a young age ... is a very, very good thing for both new owner and young horse.

A quiet, desensitized foal is a delight. A lot of the work has been done for you when buying one. If you breed to the stallion for yourself, who cares about the stallion owner?

He is what he is. His offspring are what they are. Genetically.

Once that baby is yours (when buying it from them) or you've produced one of your own, the SO's antics, if you find them odd, mean nothing over the 20+ year life of that offspring/individual.

Perhaps I'm being a bit niave and simplistic. As I said before, you're not "buying" the owners, you're only buying the offspring. Look at that only in isolation for the individual you are looking to buy. What is in front of you.

If every horse in this world of any age was judged worthy or not by whom the prior owner or breeder or SO was as the solo factor -- surely there would be a lot of horses judged unfairly and sent down the pike.

Maybe I'm really NOT getting the gist of this thread. Maybe I don't WANT to get the gist of this thread.

A good horse that has been accepted by the registry of choice by the owner who has an astute eye -- and what they see is a really good horse -- and markets itself if one unto itself, leave crazy SO's or prior owners behind.


In fact it was not too long ago that Oakstable pronouced on this board that I was not a worthy SO because by website has not been updated since 2005. Well in early 2006 my mother fell ill and is now has late term dementia. I have to subsdize her care and from 2006 until mid 2008 I was a 24/7 caregiver.

I had no time to chase down MO's to produce facts on get on the website. I stopped advertising because I knew I could not be at beck and call to MO's (which I LOVE doing) because of my Mom. For no other reason than that, despite that my stallions records have not changed and my mare owners are happy, I got slammed publicly on this board. It really hurt. I cut my ability to have clinics with Jim and others. Priorities changed. But that did not mean I had any less desirable stallions or would do any less for MO's who wanted to breed than I ever did in the past.

So...suddenly I became "unprofessional". Nutty? I hope not...though caregiving 24/7 can make you that way (wink!). I simply stopped advertising and suddenly, by Oakstables terms I'm unworthy and unprofessionally marketing wise. Unworthy no? Unprofessional? no. Stopped adverstising? Yes.

If marketing is all that counts to MO's -- whether or not the SO is producing a good product and fulfills contracts...and the horses they produce are stellar, that's really sad.

Buy the product if it is really nice and outstanding if it has the registry capablity that you want...if you are breeding at home, check the efficacy and efficiency of the contract terms.

Nothing else really counts in the long run. You'll never see those crazy SO's again and you've gotten yourself a really nice horse if you know how to choose one.

[pinecone]

It's my understanding the point is that there are a lot of stallions out there, so why get involved with a nutjob. It could make you look bad, it could make your foal harder to sell, or it could mean you have a heck of a time getting semen and breeder certs. This thread shows a lot of people won't deal with nutjobs or scumbags no matter how nice the stallion. Plus there's the idea of voting with your wallet. If you patronize these nutjobs, are you condoning their behavior? Is your money keeping a scumbag in business? Wouldn't you rather support a respectable sane SO? God knows there are people on this board I wouldn't do business with if they were the last option on earth, based on the endless self promoting, shameless bragging, nastiness, and sometimes plain ignorance they've exhibited:eek:. There are also people I'd do business with in a second, from this board.:yes:

The good news is, we're free to think how we want and act accordingly. Some of us may run like hell from a nutty stallion owner, and others might not notice anything strange at all.:winkgrin:

Capone was a great example, was I the only one who caught it?

[Laurierace]

Is it safe to assume the question in the thread title actually was referencing passing up a stallion BECAUSE of their owner? There is no one out there breeding little horse/people is there?

[Filly85']

Can I ask one question of those who desensitize horses to everything? Are you all backing your horses too or do you send them away for that?

Just curious as I don't desensitize to everything under the sun, but I do back and ride all my youngters. They really aren't scary and trying to kill you because something moves. The ones who've grown up here since birth are a pleasure to start, like they're broke already. Alright they've all been blanketed well before we start the process, but still, anyone would think if you're not out desesitizing your horses, you'll have a disaster at breaking time and someone will get hurt. You should really know that's not the case.

Terri

We don't desensitize our horses either at birth. We back all of the youngsters unless they sell as weanlings, yearlings, or two year olds before they are ready to be ridden. The vets and horsemen in our area don't think it helps to desensitize the horses because they don't remember it. Many of these horses go on to be children's horses.

We do things to desensitize them when they become older before we get one them...know 'whoa' from the lunge line, are lunged with blankets and western saddles on, laying with my body over the saddle before I actually get on them...etc. But our philosophy is that is is good to let a horse be a horse when they are just born. I am usually the first one to ever get on them, and I haven't had one throw me, take off, rear, or buck the first time I got on them yet. I've gotten on about 20 different ones for their first time.

The horses that we have problems with are the ones that come in from other barns for training. The foals who are born, raised, and backed on the farm where I ride are a pleasure to work with.

[sid]

I have to ask again of this tread and posters... do you think that you are "endorsing" the SO by buying an offspring.

Look, most SO's that are at the top of the heap, lose track of offspring once they are sold just like those that in your eyes may be at the bottom of the elite heap. They seldom hear back from breeders to their stallion, once it is on the ground.

Just because you buy a foal from a certain stallion owner (nutty or not) that doesn't mean you endorse that owner. You are simply investing your time and money into what that stallion can produce.

If you would rather be able to say that you breed to x,y,z stallions for the noteriety, that's okay. But that's one thing.

But if you are looking for a good horse and you see a nutty SO may have a good horse and product from that horse...buy the product. The horse doesn't know if it had a nutty owner! That IMO should not be the deal breaker. Some people that are not of Hilltop or others' marketing ideals, do breed good horses. In fact, sometimes they don't even know what they've got. Pick them up!!

You never have to see them again. Publish the bloodlines and performance of ancestors. That's all that counts for serious buyers who can see a good horse and do not breed to the snob appeal from a farm name of the stallion.

A lot of nutty people have owned really good horses. That should have nothing to do with you breeding decisions (unless of course they falsely adverstise the the quality of the semen from that stallion and their ability to get it to you on time to breed your mare...and that's a subject for another thread..;)).

I suppose there is much truth, after reading this, that is the marketing of the farm that is more important.

That means politics...not necessarity quality. No horse can decide who it owners will be. Good horsemen don't give a rats ass about ownership.

When they see a good horse or good get (consisently) they should indeed buy and leave the "marketing" behind. Conversely, if one sees good marketing, but no consistently superlative get, you leave the marketing behind. Some people just like to have stars in their eyes by association. Very prevalent in the horse world...;)

Sorry to run on, but I still just don't get this thread, when the bottom line is looking at what is in front of you -- forgetting all else (noteriety with farm fame or less than the "marketing"/association ideal in one mind's eye).

I'm going to bed now...;):lol:

[Donella]

Some of the things this SO does are not doubt weird (horse in the house ect) but I find it odd that any breeder thinks some of the things mentioned in the OP are negative. Ie, trailering a four day old foal. Our mares are bred with frozen semen and our Therio insists on seeing them in their foal heats. The foals go along and trailer just fine.

Many knowledgable breeders ride mares right after they foal and so teach the foal to stay by itself in the stall while mom is being worked. If done with care, it can work out just fine. In fact the people I know that do it are both vets.

We always spend time with our foals from their first day of life on. They learn right away that humans are good to be around and all of them, so far, appear to think human company is fabulous. They are all very well adjusted, have excellent ground manners and are very low stress animals because of it.

If more people spent time working with their young horses and foals there would be WAY fewer horses headed to slaughter, way fewer unwanted/problem horses and way fewer stressed out youngsters when all of a sudden at three years old they are suddenly thrown into a handling/training program. I have bought a few horses like this and the stress that it caused them as mature horses, to learn to pick up feet, tie, trailer ect is just way unfair nevermind the danger they become both to themselves and to the trainer.

The SO in this case just sounds like someone who cares about her horses and wants to do the best she/he can by them. Too bad there aren't more people around like this (without the horses living in the house part)!

[Galiba]

I agree with SID.:cool: And with Donella:)
I have bred my mare to that stallion. I found the owner very cooperative and helpful when I drove all the way down to pick up semen.:yes:
If my mare gives birth, I will repeat the business with the owner.:)

[Sunset Ponies]

We always spend time with our foals from their first day of life on. They learn right away that humans are good to be around and all of them, so far, appear to think human company is fabulous. They are all very well adjusted, have excellent ground manners and are very low stress animals because of it.

If more people spent time working with their young horses and foals there would be WAY fewer horses headed to slaughter, way fewer unwanted/problem horses and way fewer stressed out youngsters when all of a sudden at three years old they are suddenly thrown into a handling/training program. I have bought a few horses like this and the stress that it caused them as mature horses, to learn to pick up feet, tie, trailer ect is just way unfair nevermind the danger they become both to themselves and to the trainer.

)!

This is so true. I work with my babies non-stop from the time they are born. They can be groomed, bathed, tied, clipped and loaded before they are weaned. I have bought and worked with ponies that are older without this handling and despite my best efforts, you can tell the difference in the two types of ponies years later.

[sid]

Galiba...I don't even know what stallion or owners this thread is about!

I just posted in more rational and scientific terms re: breeding in general... and of course, got the opportunity to slam Oakstable for dunning me publicly for not marketing to her standards with a dying mother to take care of suddenly on my hands...:mad:.

Such vitriolic sentiments of stallions owners is very disturbing... if they temporarily have to shut down their "marketing". Fickle world indeed.

I go to bed at night knowing that I'm doing the right thing. I also know that the best marketed horse is not the BEST horse.

I been lucky to have spent my horse time life with very smart, wise horsemen and top level riders -- who know that breeding is not about having stars in one's eyes. It's about science, objective decisions to breed and also choose horses that will excel in sport, not matter who bred them. That's why I don't get why one would reject a good horse/foal based upon the opinion of the owner. Again, look at what is in front of you.

Most real professionals do not depend upon advertising or assocation to find the right horse.

That is what makes me happy for both horse and rider/buyer. Oakstable and dunning on this BB be damned in my temporary situation...she did a good job changing public opinion. But then, I don't care much about public opinion...

[Coppers mom]

Sid- Unfortunately, marketing does reflect on the sire, and possibly a foal. There doesn't have to be a lot of it, or any at all really, but quality is important.

For example, how serious does a stallion owner seem if they have a bad website (think whinnying ponies galloping across the page, cheesy music, nothing but pictures of the studs eye, the works) and flippant attitude toward their stallion and his foals? Even if the stallion is fabulous, it still kind of puts the idea of a backyard breeder (the bad kind) type. The large majority of people looking at horses are not experts when it comes to breeding. If they look up the stallions website (because they eventually will if they're looking at a young horse) and there's no mention of his or his foals accolades, they may not be able to look past the bad website. But, if they look at a website that is simple, classy, and represents the stallion well, the majority of buyers will think more highly of him because of the marketing because it makes him look like a more accomplished stallion. Unfortunate, but true.

Basically, we may know better, but others may not. It's not that I personally worry about what I think of a stallion owner, it's what someone less educated about conformation and breeding (and thus more subject to being swayed by marketing) would come away thinking after seeing the site.

[sid]

One of my stallions was a GP dressage competitor that was long listed with the USET and was one of the top 5 horses in the country at his sport.

My Mom got sick. I could not advertise or update my website.

So I'm a tacky owner because I chose to not market him for a few years while I tended to other matter?

Please, tell me this is not true. I've heard a few comments but then it's a tricky business and I jushad to step out for a moment in time. I don't allow him to be bred to just any old mare. Have always done that, regardless of the financial hit from turning business down.

So what you are saying is that because I didn't update my website my stallions should not be bred to?

Again, it's all about the offpsring. The proof is in the pudding not a website. I guess I'm a bit old fashioned and see through the ads...just want the good product.

[Coppers mom]

What?!

I think you're making this way too personal. No one's said that you're a bad stallion owner or your stallion shouldn't be bred to because you're not marketing him. Where in the world did you get that from my post?

Unless you happen to like galloping ponies and cheesy music, and that's why you're feeling it's aimed at you ;)

[Tamara in TN]

My Mom got sick. I could not advertise or update my website.

So I'm a tacky owner because I chose to not market him for a few years while I tended to other matter?

Please, tell me this is not true. I've heard a few comments but then it's a tricky business and I just had to step out for a moment in time.

Sid

I just updated my welsh pages....the newborn buckskin filly is now a twice bred broodmare with a fancy stallion out in AZ....:lol: and such a cute fuzzy she was

for me the flashy up to date marketing is only about dragging in the Internet buyers, as studies show as many people LEAVE the internet as join every year...so for at least part of the population any website is a brand new one...

some non lifetime (cradle to grave as it were:)) horse people forget that one well placed word about your horse from a farrier or a vet or another person in the breed tops a $5000 website with daily updates and hourly blogs ;), that you should not overlook your local market, and networking in person tops any flashy website/glossy mag ad ever...

websites don't build trust in a person....they are only to catch your eye

if I find a horse/cob/pony I like,I look around online sure...but then I send out the emails/calls to the people I know in and around the area or other breeders I trust...their words are generally more important to me than a website...

please don't fret about updating, that is not even in the class of "wierdness" that I have been involved in ....not even close...

take good care

best

[sid]

Copper..not aiming my angst at you! l was only describing what happened to me on this BB a year or so ago by a breeder who slammed me because my "marketing" was not updated.:(

The bottom line in all this discussion, buy the horse if it is worthy of the sport you want it for and it has the temperament you like...not the owner.;) Previous owners just don't count or the personal reasons that they could not advertise in shiney form.

When they become yours, they are yours. Previous owners or So's don't count in the end if you are a purist in choosing a horse.

[Galiba]

Sid,
You have a PM.:winkgrin:

Also I love your black stallion, Argosy!:cool:

[Oakstable]

Sid,
I did not slam you but I realize you felt slammed.

For that I do apologize.

Sally

[Coppers mom]

Sid- I'm sorry that happened, some people can just be silly :no: I looked at your website, and even if it hasn't been updated, it's still good. Every thing looks neat, it's easy to navigate, it's well written, everything you'd want in a good website. Whether the information is 10 minutes old or 10 years old really doesn't matter because the presentation is good and it provides everything you absolutely need to know about the stallions.

[STF]

Susan, take it easy. I dont think anyone is after you in the past posts silly. I think you tired and emotional over all going on in your life. Breath........ its ok. Brrrrrreath! Im sorry about your mom, BTW! :( Im in a same situation here too. Take care.

[sid]

Yea, well. We all do the best we can do for the animals that may stellar and the humans who we love who demand our time as well.

Yes..breathe. It was pretty awful do be deemed less than professional when life made a big fast turn,

No matter who thinks what, or if I'm a has been for not keeping the webpade up...I've done the right thing for my circumstance.

I just hate these SO slamming theads. There are plenty of crazys out there, just like there are many crazy MO owners..riders, yadayada.

Sure it becomes personal when you are named on a BB for not living up to standards.

I may not in my situation, but my stallions still do. While my situaion may have changed, their spermatazoa has not changed,.....:lol::lol::lol:

[stoicfish]

As a person who isn’t a breeder, but has horses, I wouldn’t really care about the SO, I would care more about the quality of the stallion.
But I can also see how marketing would be important to those that make breeding horses a business. The irony is that upper level horses that compete, or a stallion with offspring that are competing at high levels prove themselves, but if your animals do not have that record then perception would be very important. It seems to me there are different markets and different strategies. How a "unique" SO will affect your business will depend on your targeted consumer, will they care?

[Oakstable]

To set the record straight, I will wade through MANY emails to get back to what was actually was said.

Sid, if you would like to speed up the process, you can quote me exactly since it is really fresh in your mind. Not paraphrase, but run the quote.

I have a constant theme that people who are selling a service just be up to date.

I don't want to see the stud fee quoted for 2006 when I am looking in 2008, that kind of thing.

Mare owners shop through the internet. We don't see the stallions in most cases, we don't know their owners in most cases, and we draw conclusions from the presentation made on their web site.

What I recall saying to Susan is that when I see a stud fee from the past that I get the impression that not much is happening.

That's basically what I said.

I do apologize for hurt feelings.

[sid]

You know what, Oakstable. You hurt my business. I have no dog in the figjht here. I won't change your mind that I am not a pro because my website wasn't current due to my personal circumstance. You said I wasn't ...still dealing with that.

I can't go back in time. Time to move on.

Best to you ...:)

[S A McKee]

A lot of this thread makes no sense.

If I'm buying a breeding I've already decided that the stallion is suitable. I could care less how the SO deals with her foals. My foal isn't going to be raised at her farm so it's none of my business.

If I'm buying a horse the decision is based on HIS/HER performance, not the behavior of the SO.

If you are a commercial breeder and you feel the sales potential is based on the SO's foal training methods then you seriously need to put some more thought into your marketing campaign.

Unless this is all because you enjoy bashing a fellow breeder. Now that I get as marketing strategy.

[Waterwitch]

There are three valid points being made on this thread:

1) The perception of a business can and does affect the perception of products derived from that business.

2) A quality product is a quality product regardless of who produces or represents it.

3) We can choose how we spend our money.

My point was related to the last - I choose who I "support" every time I spend my money. I make every effort to support business owners who I respect, who exhibit ethics in their business practices and advertising, who have a reputation of humane and fair treatment of humans and animals, who are knowledgeable in their area of business, and who are invested in the sustainability of their product without harming the environment. This philosophy applies to all of my discretionary spending, whether I am purchasing coffee or semen.

[FriesianX]

Waterwitch, you forgot the 4th valid point. ALL of us horse people are crazy :lol:

[caffeinated]

But with both of you on top of a mattress?


Well THAT's what I've neglected to teach my horse. phooey.

<see profile pic. all will make sense>

[Iron Horse Farm]

In my little mind it is very very simple.

What I want: A stallion owner that represents their stallion with class - i.e. shows, keeps a current and classy website, and if the stallion is retired, regularly updates the website with accomplishments of foals etc.

What I don't want: Websites with cheesy music, foals with wings or stallion owners at horse shows handing out business cards talking about how crystals cured their laminitis pony.

In short, when I ask others about that stallion I want an answer not a snicker. And personally, it is very low on my list if a stallion's website hasn't been updated in a long time as long as they are willing to honor a 2 or three year old stud fee that is listed.

[Daventry]

This philosophy applies to all of my discretionary spending, whether I am purchasing coffee or semen.

Please, oh please, just don't get the two mixed up! :lol:

[Waterwitch]

Please, oh please, just don't get the two mixed up! :lol:


Ever heard of caffeine coated microscope slides :winkgrin:

[Waterwitch]

Waterwitch, you forgot the 4th valid point. ALL of us horse people are crazy :lol:


Oh yeah! Forgot that point :) And that one is absolutely always 100% true!

[STF]

On a flip side to this convesation, I would rather have someone who handled their foals, no matter WHAT they did, then have someone who does not. I have taken in a few babies to break over the years that were 3-4 yrs old and not even halter broke, so............. mattress, no mattress - at least they are handling them.:winkgrin:

I dont judge ppl anymore. Those I have met from the internet were nothing what I thought they would be in person. I just dont put enough thought into it to even care. If the stallion as nice enough and fit the mare I wanted to breed, then I dont care what they do or dont do on the side. Im to busy with my own life to worry about what someone else is doing in theirs.

But..... at least they are handling their foals.......... thats a plus!:yes:

[Coppers mom]

If I'm buying a horse the decision is based on HIS/HER performance, not the behavior of the SO.
Now, of course the horses performance outweighs their parentage, but the horses we're talking about on this thread that may be effected by bad marketing are foals and young horses. If the baby's only 3 months old, there's not much to go by other than the parents when it comes to predicting future ability, soundness, temperament, etc. That's when it may be a liability to have a kookie stallion owner, especially if the stallion is young and he doesn't have many babies doing anything yet.

[S A McKee]

Now, of course the horses performance outweighs their parentage, but the horses we're talking about on this thread that may be effected by bad marketing are foals and young horses. If the baby's only 3 months old, there's not much to go by other than the parents when it comes to predicting future ability, soundness, temperament, etc. That's when it may be a liability to have a kookie stallion owner, especially if the stallion is young and he doesn't have many babies doing anything yet.

Yes, go by what the stallion accomplished. If he met your needs breed to him, if not you shouldn't be considering him anyway.
If I eliminated stallion candidates based on SO behavior on this thread I'd be able to eliminate several horses easily. In fact, I just did that.
The performance of the stallion as a show horse or the performance of the offspring are what I'm looking for when selecting a candidate, not the SO's personality. If that's what's important to you how whould you phrase that in a sale ad? "This foal is really bad but the SO is a really nice person"?
Really, if the stallion was producing super stars and the foals sold for large $$ and the SO was a bit odd are you saying you'd not breed to that horse? I don't think so. LOL

[Coppers mom]

Yes, go by what the stallion accomplished. If he met your needs breed to him, if not you shouldn't be considering him anyway.
If I eliminated stallion candidates based on SO behavior on this thread I'd be able to eliminate several horses easily. In fact, I just did that.
The performance of the stallion as a show horse or the performance of the offspring are what I'm looking for when selecting a candidate, not the SO's personality. If that's what's important to you how whould you phrase that in a sale ad? "This foal is really bad but the SO is a really nice person"?
Really, if the stallion was producing super stars and the foals sold for large $$ and the SO was a bit odd are you saying you'd not breed to that horse? I don't think so. LOL

No, that's not what I meant. The gist of it, for me at least, is that I want the stallion to be well represented so that if a potential buyer of a horse (under riding age) googled him, they wouldn't be put aback and they'd be able to find helpful information about the stallion. It's all well and good if I know about the stallion, but I want someone who doesn't know very much about breeding to come away with a good idea of the sire.

This especially comes up when the stallion is young, or doesn't have a lot of foals on the ground that a buyer can easily reference. In this case, the site, ads, and any other way the stallion is represented is really the only way to get an idea of the horse. If it's all lovey dovey, look at my poopsie pops type of thing, with no mention of his lineage, breeding test scores, or what he could offer to the program, it's not going to make him come across as a serious stallion candidate. As previously stated, most people aren't breeding experts, and need to be told why the stallion's good, what he or his foals have done, etc. Having the information out there for people to see is important, and when a stallion owner doesn't present it, what's a potential buyer to do?

In the case of stallion owner's behavior, well, it would effect my decision to breed if it might effect me financially (not worried so much about it effecting selling the foal, buyers typically don't interact with SO's the same as MO would). If the owner is notoriously difficult, to the point where it would be easier to just buy a foal already on the ground, it's not really worth it. There are a lot of fantastic stallions, and it's gets expensive when the mare is repeatedly missed because the owner is hard to get a hold of, doesn't send semen in time, or doesn't run a quality operation (reusing containers, not preparing the semen correctly). There are a lot of good matches for most mares, so it's not really worth the hassle and money of dealing with difficult stallion owners.

So while I personally don't mind if a stallion's owners are enthusiastic about their horses, I do mind if they present the stallion poorly (this varies for everyone) or are very difficult to work with. The previous because it could effect the foal if the stallion hasn't really been proven yet, and the latter because I just can't be bothered with all that. :)

[Daventry]

In the case of stallion owner's behavior, well, it would effect my decision to breed if it might effect me financially....If the owner is notoriously difficult...There are a lot of fantastic stallions, and it's gets expensive when the mare is repeatedly missed because the owner is hard to get a hold of, doesn't send semen in time, or doesn't run a quality operation (reusing containers, not preparing the semen correctly). There are a lot of good matches for most mares, so it's not really worth the hassle and money of dealing with difficult stallion owners.



Exactly! :yes::yes:

[Hi Jump]

It might be easy to ignore the ethics of the ownership in the choice to breed to a stallion that meets your expectations, but it can catch up to you . I have seen publically posted threads on breeders left hanging when the stallion simply disappears. And ones discussing where one might register the ofspring when the ownership has been fragulent or simply delinquent in its relationships with registries. And genetic abnormalities from stallions that is covered up by the slaion owners and not ever disclosed. Aren't those issues own might have had the forethought to consider the ethics of who they do business with before they bred?

THis is not about people who need to advertise their stallions with antics of foals being imprinted . I am simply stating over the years I have observed there may be serious implications for those who do not consider the stallion owners ethics.


Lisa , Synergy Sporthorses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net