"Coloured" 3/4-7/8th TB or WB but none/few at the top?

[pwynnnorman]

Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.

Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.
B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.
E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.
F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).
G. Something else.

Again, just curious as I wait for the rain to end so I can pick up a load of hay.

[Nes]

I just think we are rounding the corner from where we bred those horses for colour, and in order to get the colours we wanted we sacrificed the quality a little. However, now that we have lots of beautiful, loud colours in genes that are very stable, we are headed back to building for quality in those horses. So in the next 50 years I think you will see coloured horses at the tops of their sports.

You have to remember we didn't have leopard spotted or cremellos or even loudly coloured paints 100 years ago the way we do now.

The one place I don't think coloured horses will be able to gain a foot-hold is in thoroughbred racing. I think in that case we are way too far of creating thoroughbred that are both colourful & can run. Maybe in another 100 years.

JMHO.

[pcwertb]

She isn't at the top yet (she is only 5) and my guess is her ammie owner won't event her past training, but the dun (Connemara color, truly speaking she is buckskin) I bred that is now 5 has qualified for NAEC this fall. As a 4 year old, she won her 4 year old USEA test at a show in TX and was told by the judges the filly would be capable of competing successfully at the national level. She is 1/2 TB, 1/2 Connemara.

Her dam is Pesy Side, sire is *Gunsmoke.

The first photo is as a 4 year old, the 2nd is as a young 5 year old.

Color was an after-thought, though. She wasn't bred for color, just a bonus that *Gunsmoke is dun.

[JB]

Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.
Dun to A T, buckskin, ridden by Darren Chiaccha, competed at Rolex - that's a pretty "famous" level of Eventing :)

I have forgotten the name of the rider and horse, but I think there is a pretty famous Appy Hunter whose rider rode him bridleless in a Hunter class for sales purposes. Someone reading this will know who it is :)

Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.Nothing to do with it. What CAN happen though, and does far too often, is that someone breeds primarily for color, with conformation, temperament, and talent a distant 2nd. There are probably more ill-advised colored horses out there than carefully planned ones for that reason. That by default lowers the choices. But there are far, far far more "plain" horses not suited for the show ring, or who belong to people who don't want to show, than those who are suited and are in the right show hands. It's like a population of blue people and green people: If you have 85% of the population as blue, and 15% green, then if you are looking at Job A, you can't expect there to be more than 15% of the employees being green because they aren't any more than 15% of the population. That doesn't make them inferior, it's just a matter of statistics.

B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.See above - I think there are a lot of "colored" horses out there, but having enough of them in the right breeds is where you're lacking. LOTS of pinto stock horses exist, but because of their breeding they are not suitable, largely, for the disciplines you listed.

C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.See above - it's largely about numbers. When talking about dilutes and appy patterns and pinto patterns, there just aren't that many lines in the sporthorse world to begin with. Combine that with the fact that most of the horses produced end up in amateur hands, they just don't make it to the top levels. It's hard enough to produce a top level horse, either by well-thought out breeding or just grit and guts training, that when you do produce one, it's much more likely to be one of the "normal" colors because bay, chestnut, and gray just overpower everything else in terms of numbers.

D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.No doubt - there IS prejudice right off the bat for some people who automatically associate "color" with "those cow horses" and think they can't jump their way out of a paper bag.

E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.Indeed, that has to be part of the issue as well. It's a matter mostly of the numbers of normal colors vs the numbers of "colored" colors/patterns. Then to get to the point where you have a breeding-worthy colored horse and the numbers reduce even more. THEN to get those breeding-worthy colored horses into the hands of people who want to breed them, *especially* stallions, and you've dramatically reduced the pool farther. You're much more likely to get a top level colored horse from a nice colored stallion, than from a nice colored mare, simply due to numbers. Add to THAT issue the fact that while there are few enough single dilutes, or heterozygous tobianos, or heterozygous appys, there are even *fewer* homozgyous horses of breeding worthiness. So, with the heterozygous horses, 1/2 their offspring are going to be normal colors/patterns. Only the homozygous horses produced the colors/patterns 100% of the time.

F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).That is also an issue as well. I love what Guaranteed Gold produces, but his offspring are priced way out of my range even just as foals. But they ALL sell, so their price is worth it, obviously, for enough folks. But even if you breed for one, you're again looking at numbers - take 100 horses, 2 of which are colored (color, pattern, whatever), and the chance of those 2 having the talent and the rider to make it to the top is slim, just as slim as randomly picking out 2 normal horses from that 100.

G. Something else.No doubt there are some folks who love the color, might have even bred one themselves, but have met, due to location, judges with a huge color prejudice, so get frustrated and just give up.

[TrueColours]

The one place I don't think coloured horses will be able to gain a foot-hold is in thoroughbred racing. I think in that case we are way too far of creating thoroughbred that are both colourful & can run. Maybe in another 100 years.


pshaw ... ;) ... just wait ... :lol:

There is one palomino colt by Guaranteed Gold that is a week or so away from his first race named Beyond Blonde and another GG grand daughter - again palomino - just posted the fastest work of the day out of 30 some odd horses at the track she trains at. No - I dont see any of them winning the Triple Crown anytime soon ;) but I think several of them will be quite capable of being competitive race horses that can pay their way and earn some money for their connections

There is another one out west that will hopefully make his debut this year - the James Blonde colt and 2 or 3 more GG offspring that will also be running in PA state.

The intention also is to ship the palomino & white Remember My Name colt to Scotland where he will undergo race training for his connections and he will then race over in the UK which would be fabulous to see! :)

So - give it some time. You should start seeing some neat colours popping up at the tracks across North America shortly and hopefully as well as "looking neat" they can also do some serious running as well ... :)

I love what Guaranteed Gold produces,

Thank you. Very much ... :)

[RiverOaksFarm]

But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses

This confused me a little (I guess because pinto and the dilutes (palomino etc) can be warmbloods too) so my response may not even be relevent because I'm not sure if you're interested in thoughts about breeds like Appy and Paint, or colored sport horses in general, but anyhow... (Feel free to skip over my post if I've missed the plot entirely, lol!)

B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.


I think it's a combination of both. I don't know the numbers, but I'd guess maybe less than 1% of registered warmbloods/sporthorses are "coloured", so it's logical we'd see less of them at the top levels of competition. When you combine that with the fact that too often people sacrifice quality and conformation or take other shortcuts to get color, then you have even more factors which are going to preclude high level performance success.

So if you figure only a tiny percentage of warmbloods/sporthorses are "coloured", and only a percentage of those are quality bred, it's not surprising we don't see more of them at the higher levels.

I also think because of the rarity of quality colored warmbloods/sporthorses, the best may be used for breeding, more than showing, because for many people the logistics are too complicated to try to do both -- breeding AND training/campaigning/showing.

The quality of colored breeding programs is improving in leaps and bounds, in my opinion, and we have quality colored warmblood stallion options like Sempatico, Blue Eyed Dream, Limet Hurry, Palladio, and more (Nico, for fans of Friesian Sporthorses!;)), which would have been unheard of 10 or 15 years ago. As more quality colored horses are produced, the odds of one "making it" will increase proportionally...

[Nootka]

Gwen sold a upperlevel event prospect to a BN eventer in Aus or New Z.

I hope he makes it big:yes:

This stallion is doing well
http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/Mirabeau1.htm

along with this one but he is to be gelded (or is already) to focus on showing
http://www.fieldstonefarm.biz/breeding_services.htm

[showjumpers66]

Galypso by Galoubet and out of a pinto British sporthorse mare was a black/white pinto stallion owned and shown by the Cudmores at the grand prix level.

[FriesianX]

There are very few HORSES that make it to the top. How many Olympic horses are there? That we remember? Not many. So, you then drop down to subsets - how many APPY sport horses are there? Even fewer. Pinto? A few more than Appy, but not so many. Dilutes, pretty rare. So you have very limited numbers - and as already pointed out, until recently, anything outside of gray, bay, chestnut, and black was, ahem... Not right!

HOWEVER, having said all that. First of all, we've all heard of Art Deco? He's probably one of the first to break the color barrier. And - in reality, there have been quite a few minimally marked sabinos - people just didn't notice the high, splashy whites, or the belly spot;) Dutch WBs and Trakehners have a lot of these sabino lines!

I think we'll start to see more and more of the colored athletes, there are some nice young prospects out there. Now, will we see a dilute pintaloosa? Probably not anytime soon :lol:

[JB]

Now, will we see a dilute pintaloosa? Probably not anytime soon :lol:

:lol::lol:

But we MAY see a dilute appy :) Dilute pinto as well.

[jilltx]

Dun to A T, buckskin, ridden by Darren Chiaccha, competed at Rolex - that's a pretty "famous" level of Eventing :)

He was actually ridden by Jonathan Holling at Rolex 08, who was filling in for Darren after he was injured. He only completed the dressage portion and scratched after that.

I think he might still be riding him...not sure. He seems to be a very nice horse.

[camohn]

A combo of

B:not enough of them bred/odds are against them by sheer volume

C: the WAY they are produced. Often but not always color was being bred for a variety of reasons..sometimes it was just for the sake of color and the horse had poor confo or no talent at all. In many cases with the non WB pintos the base is in stock horse Paints.......APHAs are 90% bred for Western events, not jumping or dressage. Unfortunately that leaves the other 10% tarred with the same brush, even if they ARE good at jumpers or dressage....and are not judged on their own merits.

and E is pretty self explanatory.

I got into Paints (APHA) first as a Paint was the first horse I ever learned to ride on. The first horse I owned was a rescued Paint. First equine sports were trail riding, then polo and field hunting. When I got preggo I go into dressage as a safer sport for the new mom. It also helps ya don't have to have a string like for polo!! I still loved my Paints but most were not suited to Dressage so I bought a Paint/TB cross mare with her newborn filly at side by a WB stallion. That pair was the foundation of my current breeding program. Then I added an overo TB stallion since he was the whole package of talent and temperment. Sadly I lost him at only 5 years old and have hopes that is now 2 YO son will be able to fill his big shoes.

[SilverSpringFarm]

There are very few HORSES that make it to the top. How many Olympic horses are there? That we remember? Not many. So, you then drop down to subsets - how many APPY sport horses are there? Even fewer. Pinto? A few more than Appy, but not so many. Dilutes, pretty rare. So you have very limited numbers - and as already pointed out, until recently, anything outside of gray, bay, chestnut, and black was, ahem... Not right!

Agree entirely.

Breeding for a specific color is a relatively new thing. There were plenty of stigmas in the past that prevented many horses of "unusual coat" from being bred. Registry biases "Too much white = no papers!." Old wives tales ala "Pink hooves are weak." Can you imagine what people thought about cremellos & perlinos 200 years ago? I wouldn't be surprised if they were culled instantly.

I just think we are rounding the corner from where we bred those horses for colour, and in order to get the colours we wanted we sacrificed the quality a little. However, now that we have lots of beautiful, loud colours in genes that are very stable, we are headed back to building for quality in those horses. So in the next 50 years I think you will see coloured horses at the tops of their sports.

Another excellent point. In order to breed for a color you have to start with that color. In order to keep the color going it is VERY VERY likely that some compromises had to be made at some point. The likelihood that the first mutation of the cream gene occurred in a perfect equine specimen is very slim!

[Nes]

I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.

Actually there are quite a few buckskin Andaulisan & Lustiano competing at very high levels in Europe (and throughout history too).

[au_panda]

I have a palomino 7 year old by Canadian Kid. He has a beautiful canter, huge step, cute jump and is super honest. He has been regional Champion in the IHF programs and was the year end champion A/A hunter last year in the Sacramento area - which will certainly not be defined by anyone in the hunter world as "making it to the top".

Unfortunately for him, I fall into category F; it costs so much to show now that he will not "make it to the top" of the hunter world if that is defined as the USEF National Champion Regular Working Hunter because I can't spend the $$$$s to get him to a top trainer and 25 shows a year. Unless he is purchased by someone who can campaign him, his true potential will not be known.

For me, he might someday be able to be in the top 10 of the PCHA 1st Year or A/O Hunters, or maybe the top 3 in the NorCal H/J year end awards and I will certainly enjoy getting him that far.

How many other breeders/owners/riders are in category F and will never really know whether the potential of their horses has been fulfilled?

[SuZQuzie]

I think that, for the most part, is that there hasn't been the right "stuff" yet, in the colored sporthorses for eventing. But they are getting there. I think the biggest thing is that the colored warmbloods tended to be heavier and of a less modern-type than what many competitors are looking for in their mount. They wanted more blood.

However, no one would want to just cross hot blood (presumably TB) with old-style warmbloods. WAY too much chance for the genes to not line up right and, even if they did, the resultant offspring would be too heavy.

Gwen seems to have it right, so far, from what I've seen of her offspring now. Mascarpone was still too heavy, IMO, but she crossed him with mares with generally hotter blood, lighten frames and longer legs leading to a good bunch of nice, athletic Mascarpone stallion sons (Yeager, Mirabeau, Medallion). These stallions seem to be more appropriate to breed to even more hot blooded mares with proven athletic ability to produce colored UL horses.

My buckskin Yeager foal is 58% TB, 19% Trak, and 23% other warmblood, which should prove to be an at least decent mix for the ULs. He will be shown in the FEH series, then starting the YEH series and BN/N when he is 4. We'll see from there. ;)

[RiddleMeThis]

I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.



What do you mean by "natural" color?

[SuZQuzie]

What do you mean by "natural" color?

Nes, are you referring to dun, which is often erroneously called buckskin?

[vineyridge]

I would say something here about starting with colored clunkers and adding TB blood to get English discipline sport horses but I won't. :)

BTW, there are several maximum white sabino TB who have raced and won. It's just the Palominos who have poor race records, but that might be because so many of them got diverted to color breeding. After all, they've only been noticed as palominos for the past fifty or so years--since Milkie.

[Nes]

Yes, I was having an idiot moment, my appologies :D

[JB]

I don`t think we can really include buckskins in this discussion as that is a *natural* equine colour.

If it's not a bay dun, it's not a natural color at all :) It may be "natural" now, but anything outside "bay dun" is a mutation. Buckskin is no more natural or unnatural than palomino, or than gray, or than tobiano or Frame or Champagne or Silver or or or - all are mutations along the way :)

ETA - just saw that you really meant dun :)

[Nootka]

another very nice coloured stallion

http://www.universumsknockout.com/nockout_en.html

[scubed]

How about some of the Pintos that Carol Koslowski has shown or Ringmoylan that Jane Jennings (?) is showing now or Presto (registered ApHA) that Allison Springer rode through advanced. My guy is somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 appy and has both spots and a huge amount of talent. If anyone wants to take a colored horse up through the levels (currently training level eventing, almost ready for preliminary and jumping 3'6" SJ courses easily), let me know - I'm busy with my "boring" bay

[Blacktree]

Unfortunately Yeager is limited by reason 'F'. We bought him right when we bought our first farm, and almost every penny (and second of time) has gone into developing that since. He is one of the most athletic horses I've had the opportunity to ride in 26 years though (kudos to Gwen's program for that), and I am super pleased with how his foals have been turning out so far.

I hope our life will slow down a bit and finances will allow me to do him justice and campaign him in the future, but w/ the economy looking as it is, who knows what will be possible.

There are definitely more quality 'sporthorses of color' out there now than there used to be, I bet you'll start seeing more make it to the top in the future.

[SuZQuzie]

I can attest for WarmbloodColor, since I went and saw him in person, that horse has some serious hops. :D

[TrueColours]

! WAVES HAND !

Put me into Category "F" as well ... as much as I would have loved to have had Faux Finish shown up to 3'6" in the hunters and in the jumper ring as well, there was only so much $$$ to go around and I simply couldnt do it :no:

Breeding for a specific color is a relatively new thing. There were plenty of stigmas in the past that prevented many horses of "unusual coat" from being bred

Oh yeah ... :rolleyes:

I remember the Milkie story where they had to jump through hoops to get him registered. Jerry Tyler spent a fortune on Puchilingui getting his colour / registration papers sorted out with the Jockey Club. Years ago when I was showing in the jumper ring, a lady that was friends with the Samuels that owned Sam Son Farm here in Ontario rode this gorgeous big bay gelding in the hunter ring with a lot of white on his face and legs and a huge belly spot. The JC wouldnt issue papers on him because of all of that white and by the time they finally did, he was 4 and too old to take to the track (he hadnt even started let alone broke his maiden yet) so they sold him to this lady - unregistered - even though he was bred up the ying yang and probably WOULD have made a fabulous and profitable race horse. SO even the large stables had the colour bias going against them. This would have been in the late 70's this happened ...

Many of the palomino's werent even registered, and God only knows what they did with all white sabino's! Probably took them out back and fed them to the hounds but they wouldnt have spent a penny getting them registered either. They were probably considered an abomination ...

Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money! :lol:

My how things have changed in every area ... ;)

[SilverSpringFarm]

Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money! :lol:

Makes me wonder how many QHs have actually been born looking like this...

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reminic+in+spots

I love harlequin Great Danes. I never knew they were undesirable at one point!

[pwynnnorman]

! WAVES HAND !

Put me into Category "F" as well ... as much as I would have loved to have had Faux Finish shown up to 3'6" in the hunters and in the jumper ring as well, there was only so much $$$ to go around and I simply couldnt do it :no:



Oh yeah ... :rolleyes:

I remember the Milkie story where they had to jump through hoops to get him registered. Jerry Tyler spent a fortune on Puchilingui getting his colour / registration papers sorted out with the Jockey Club. Years ago when I was showing in the jumper ring, a lady that was friends with the Samuels that owned Sam Son Farm here in Ontario rode this gorgeous big bay gelding in the hunter ring with a lot of white on his face and legs and a huge belly spot. The JC wouldnt issue papers on him because of all of that white and by the time they finally did, he was 4 and too old to take to the track (he hadnt even started let alone broke his maiden yet) so they sold him to this lady - unregistered - even though he was bred up the ying yang and probably WOULD have made a fabulous and profitable race horse. SO even the large stables had the colour bias going against them. This would have been in the late 70's this happened ...

Many of the palomino's werent even registered, and God only knows what they did with all white sabino's! Probably took them out back and fed them to the hounds but they wouldnt have spent a penny getting them registered either. They were probably considered an abomination ...

Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money! :lol:

My how things have changed in every area ... ;)

I got called away soon after posting!!! Still, what a fascinating thread. TrueColors, I'd heard of some of those difficulties, but not the extent of them. But what happened with the Danes?

Say, has anyone thought to write a book about this stuff?

(Oh, and as I said on the other thread, I was impressed by Dun To A T when I saw him at an ICP clinic a year or so ago, under Darren. Powerful beastie...)

[Cartier]

I remember the Think of the harlequin Great Danes. Drowned at birth or given away in secret without papers so NO ONE would know it came from YOUR breeding program. Now - they are coveted and sought after and worth terrific money! :lol:

My how things have changed in every area ... ;)





I love harlequin Great Danes. I never knew they were undesirable at one point!

True Colors is mistaken. The Harlequin color pattern in Great Danes has been one of the recognized five colors in the breed for over 150 years. The first Great Dane to come to the USA came in 1857. He as a Harlequin named Prince, owned by Mr. Francis Butler. Prince had been shown in London, his owner was received by Queen Victoria, and the Illustrated News carried a drawing of Prince. True Colors may be thinking of Albinos (a disqualified color associated with deafness) or Merles (a disqualification), neither is sought after.

Also, to get a Harlequin you have to breed to a Harlequin… they are not a surprise in the litter, you have to intentionally breed for the color. They have always been highly sought after, and expensive, in part because the correct distribution of the spots, with the desired clean white neck is random, so getting the correct conformation with the correct distribution of spots is very difficult to get. The puppy with the best conformation in the litter might not have the best color. The Boston (or Mantle) color pattern can appear in a Harlequin litter. This pattern has always been valued too. Around the world Bostons were shown and used in breeding programs. In the USA, before AKC accepted the color, Mantles could not be shown, but they were still valued by Harlequin breeders because they produced the desired clean white neck. Merles (which appear in Harlequin litters) were sometimes euthanized at birth because the color was not allowed, and Albinos (again appearing from time to time in Harlequin litters), were euthanized because the color is thought to be linked to deafness.

But there has always been a strong market for Harlequins. They are (and have always been) the most expensive of the Great Dane colors (because a good, correctly marked one is so rare). And they only appear when one parent is a Harlequin.

[poltroon]

Now let's see. It seems to me there was this lovely pinto mare who was quite an impressive eventer, oh around 1980. Now what was her name again? :D

[beanie&boomer]

Glad you said it!

[crestline]

We definitely fall into category F as well...although even with the limited showing that we get to do we still took Palladio out last year and won the International Hunter Derby in WA and finished 11th out of 35ish horses with a brand new catch rider on him at another one in Canada....not bad for spending most of his time in the breeding shed and playing around at home.

We have easy minded foals so lots of them go to ammy that don't wind up taking them as far as they could but they are happy, safe, athletic, performance horses that are grossly underutilizing their talents. I figure better that then super crazy horses that no one can ride! But yes, that means a bunch of our spotted kids wind up being people's FUN horses and not in homes with folks that push them to the max of their abilities.

I can also absolutely say that there are some colored stallions that would NEVER be left stallions if they were plain bay or chestnut. We are talking grossly incorrect legs and foals that show the same problems or horses that are incorrect, weak movers or very poor jumpers...if that was a bay horse no one would ever use it...but add in color and voila...even unapproved, people will breed to them and the cycle of weak colored horses continues.

Palladio's breeder takes elite mares and crosses them on top, well known, proven sires. She was also the breeder of Semper who is Sempatico's sire. That woman is not skimping on quality in her program and nice horses come from it...some with color, some without but all with top bloodlines. I think it is a wonderful model to follow.

Hopefully as more and more colored horses are out there the best will get picked for breeding not because of their color but because of the athletic attributes that they have to offer the sporthorse population in general. As long as color is that last thing that people are looking for then the colored horses will probably be seen more and more often in the upper levels. We have kept a filly here as one of the highest scoring Palladio foals ever rated. She is lovely...she happens to be HZ for pinto...I'd have kept her even if she was hetero for pinto or solid as she is just wonderful and I can't wait to breed her....and hopefully she will produce things as nice as herself and her sire and yes...they'll have some fun toby markings!

I will also agree that there is still some color prejudice out there that some people just don't look at a colored horse and think "upper levels". We've made a good dent in changing peoples minds about that in the PNW, lol...but until more are out there I think there is the assumption that some quality was skipped to get the color...hopefully that will change as more and more really good ones come along.

On a side note there was an appy up in the PNW for a long time that did well in the hunters...can't remember what it's name was.

[Cartier]

Utah Van Erpekom has done rather well as a Grand Prix Show Jumper with John Whittaker. I believe Utah is indisputably the most successful Pinto Stallion in sport...world wide... ever. I can't think of any Pinto stallion anywhere in the world that even comes close to what Utah has accomplished in sport. Here is a link to Utah’s website and a few YouTube videos of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ExePa8_Jc&feature=related

http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/news.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzFaZdFIs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK7BZi5i-88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3C2YHf-K0&feature=related


and, just have to add this link to John and the great show jumper Milton (with Tina Turner)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxwYCURa3U

[PineTreeFarm]

There have been pinto horses doing well as hunters for years. Silverwood's pinto stallions have produced some of these horses.
Claim to Fame won at Devon and more recently Crestline's Palladio has been a star.
A few years back there was a very good spotted equitation horse.

Appy's have been successful for years. Many from the 'wap' lines. They have won as Hunters, Jumpers and Equitation horses.

Many. many years ago the AHSA national Junior Hunter Champion was a Palomino. However, at the time there was a bit of a negative attitude towards them. So that horse was registered as a chestnut. But we all knew what color it really was. LOL.

[TrueColours]

cartier - on the harlequin Danes - really??? :confused: I was always under the impression they were the black sheep of the Dane kingdom and they got stuck in bags and drowned out back in the pond...

See - the wonderful knowledgeable people at COTH come to the rescue again and set us straight! :D

Thanks cartier!

[Cartier]

cartier - on the harlequin Danes - really??? :confused: I was always under the impression they were the black sheep of the Dane kingdom and they got stuck in bags and drowned out back in the pond...

See - the wonderful knowledgeable people at COTH come to the rescue again and set us straight! :D

Thanks cartier!

You're welcome Donna. :) Actually the Harlequin color pattern is unique on canines. It is not, as people mistakenly think, the same as the Dalmatian color pattern (which is basically a white dog with black spots). You could think of a Harlequin as a black dog wearing a torn white overcoat. If Harlequins ceased to exist, the color pattern would not exist anywhere.

As for Albinos and Merles, they simply randomly appear in Harlequin litters, there is really nothing a Harlequin breeder can do to avoid producing them. They are not desired, but they are not the result of unscrupulous breeding. They are part of the gamble a Harlequin breeder takes, so I am not clear where you got the idea that breeders would be euthanizing a Harlequin (or any of the colors that appear in Harlequin litters ) out of shame.

The only thing I can think of that would be a source of shame would be if a Harlequin breeder produced a Fawnaquin.. or a Brindlequin, which would be the result of breeding a Harlequin to a Fawn or Brindle. Breeders would sometimes do this because the quality of conformation was traditionally in the Fawns and Brindles. The breeder was hoping to get the quality conformation from the Fawn or Brindle, with the coat color pattern of the Harlequin. I have seen a few of these Fawnaquins and Brindlequis over the years. They are lovely, but it is considered a “mixed color breeding “ and was severely frowned upon by the Great Dane Club of America. It was a violation the GDCA's Code of Ethics, and may even have been reason to get your butt kicked out of the club… so that might be something a breeder would want to hide. But any breeder who kills another wise healthy puppy for something as trivial as coat color is just plain frickin wrong in my book.:mad:

[Paula]

We can't forget Broadcast News who with Mark Todd won the FEI World Eventing Title in 1997. Broadcast News was an appaloosa gelding from New Zealand. There have been a lot of other upper level appaloosa eventers. The problem is if they don't have spots they aren't shown as appaloosas so people don't realize it. I think Broadcast News was generally listed in programs as a tbx even though he was actually a registered appaloosa...

[florida foxhunter]

'We also breed for quality first and color second........we're quite proud of our pinto Oldenburg Stallion, Claim to Fame. Yes, he was/is a hunter......BUT he was of such quality that he beat classes of ALL solid colored horses both "on the line" and under saddle. I was a bit hampered by F. ($$) but he won a lot on the east coast..........then many told me I should ride him myself (5'2 55+ amateur lady) instead of the pros........he went as well, if not better for me (everyone commented how cute it was that he took care of me!!)....
He hurt a foot, then I broke my wrist (in a vehicle, not on a horse..insult to injury, haha) .....so we're not showing now.

Wait until you see Colaire........a 17 hand black pinto by Voltaire..........We have high hopes for this guy. He will probably end up a hunter rather than event horse, because he's a hack winner type with great knees..........You can't fault this breeding....! Plus, the $$ market was (is?) higher for hunters than event horses, so when a breeder has a nice one, that dictates where we have to go........

I'll include photos of both. The trick is to breed for quality first.....and the color is just the icing on the cake. Yes, in the beginning, we color (or colour) breeders were a bit hampered by the small choices in pinto warmbloods.......but many have spread the genes to bring in color and the best horses possible!

As a fellow COTHER always says........" be spotted, ride a pinto", haha!

[Cartier]

We can't forget Broadcast News who with Mark Todd won the FEI World Eventing Title in 1997. Broadcast News was an appaloosa gelding from New Zealand.
That is very interesting… we have videos of Broadcast News with Mark. I sort of recall him doing his dressage test at Badminton in the pouring, drenching, bone-soaking rain… it was amazing the Mark didn't slide right out of the saddle, it was so wet. What a good boy Broadcast News was!!! :yes: I never realized he was an Appaloosa. Interesting.

[grayarabpony]

Mostly Broadcast News was TB, with a dash of Appy thrown in. (7/8s TB)

[vineyridge]

According to someone on H & H, Pippa Funnell evented a skewbald mare a while back.

I think the Brits have a great deal less prejudice about piebalds and skewbalds than we do over here. Can't remember where I saw it, but there is a WB breeding place in the UK that stands a couple of colored stallions for dressage. I simply cannot imagine an GP American dressage rider on a pinto, no matter how well bred.

[grayarabpony]

In the 90's Pippa Funnel evented a gelding named Bits and Pieces at 4* level. He was part Tinker Pony.

[belambi]

Interestingly enough though..Many FEI top ponies are coloured.. Particularly A grade showjumpers in Uk and Ireland!

[belambi]

Gandalf, who Mark rode at Beijing is actually Pinto bred.. But is solid. (I dont think he is greyed out..I think he just didnt get the tobi gene from his sire.)

http://www.pintadodesperado.com/aboutpintadodesperado.htm

http://www.pintadodesperado.com/olympicsmarktoddgandalf.htm

[cloverlone]

I breed spotted Holsteiners,.. hardest is to breed the #'s needed, afford to make/promote them in these large numbers and be willing to sell your best stock. Whew! Tall order. every time I get ahead another generation, it's hard to sell because they are so much better than the last! It's 20+ years in the making and feel like I'm just getting started.

A solid mare (bummer), full sister to one of my spotted stallions went advanced with junior owner/rider (eventing). Won some championships, year end awards, etc..

My latest spotted colt (yearling) has a Verband HOL stam (St Pr imported dam) and sire line to Corde; only 4% appaloosa and kept the color. He'll produce color at 2% and make some great pedigrees. My foals end up primarily in the hunters. Though I do have a Landgraf grandaughter that is white with black spots (4 years) and headed for the jumpers.

I've never given up on having a super pedigree, type combination and anything else I would consider in a normal breeding. Sometimes it just takes longer. One stallion I have owned for 10 years and just finally breeding him to a mare; I never had the right mare for him before. This one was World Cup qualified (jumper) , has a famous stam (242) and a great pedigree AND a great type cross for him... movement, style, conformation and temperament. Fingers crossed for a blanketed filly. :) Want that stam!

g

www.cloverlone.com - Spotted Holsteiner Sport Horses

[belambi]

Indeed!.. and you have a great reputation in our area of interest!..
Our appaloosa sporthorses bloodlines include Sandro Hit, Earl, Balougran Z, ..its great fun!
We find them really quite marketable.

[vineyridge]

It is not, as people mistakenly think, the same as the Dalmatian color pattern (which is basically a white dog with black spots). You could think of a Harlequin as a black dog wearing a torn white overcoat.

Actually the dal coat is very similar. First you have a base color of black or liver; then you have white from an extreme piebald gene on top of that; then you have a ticking gene that opens holes for the base coat to show through the white, and another to make spots and not flecks.

From a Bio Med Research Article
The distinctive coat pattern of a Dalmatian is the result of the interaction of several genes. Specifically, it is known the extreme piebald allele of the Piebald locus, in conjunction with the ticked allele of the Ticking locus, and nonflecked allele of the Flecking locus, produces pigmented spots on a white background [1 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1746-6148/1/1#B1)]. The color of the pigmented spots in registered Dalmatians is black or liver [2 (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1746-6148/1/1#B2)], but the locus responsible for the color variation has not been identified in the Dalmatian
* * * *
All Dalmatians are homozygous for the Piebald, Ticking, and Flecking loci (or they would not display the classic spotting pattern) complicating characterization of these loci through standard techniques, such as linkage analysis, since there is not a segregating phenotype to detect. However, black and liver spot color is a detectable phenotype that segregates in Mendelian fashion.

[vineyridge]

KWPN has the Samber line. They are top quality colored horses.

[Equilibrium]

Well I love this guy:

http://www.stallionai.com/documents/circus.pdf

Not only is he a stallion but his competition record speaks for itself.

A colored stallion Glenhill Gold was 8th in the World Cup Qualifier af Fairyhouse last week.

Also Park Pilot won the CCI** after coming back from a back injury.

Terri

[Cartier]

Actually the dal coat is very similar. First you have a base color of black or liver; then you have white from an extreme piebald gene on top of that; then you have a ticking gene that opens holes for the base coat to show through the white, and another to make spots and not flecks.

From a Bio Med Research Article

Interesting, Thank you. :) I was looking online on sites like IVIS for an article about the uniqueness of the Harlequin color pattern… haven’t found one, got sidetracked by this article, which references the link between Merles / albinos and deafness.

In: Braund's Clinical Neurology in Small Animals: Localization, Diagnosis and Treatment, Vite C.H. (Ed.)
International Veterinary Information Service, Ithaca NY (www.ivis.org), 2003; A3222.0203
Neuropathic Disorders (Last Updated: 6-Feb-2003)
K. G. Braund

I have discussions published in some of the Great Dane breed books, but I am not a typist and am not re-typing them here on a horse forum. :lol:

I wonder, do equine breeders run across deafness related to color? You read about the bias against certain colors, is that because the color is (or is thought to be) linked to other problems? And if so, how do breeders screen to avoid the problems?

In canines we do so many tests to screen for heritable problems. Not sure about the credible science behind the tests we do, some seem useless in the context of predicting what the animal will not transmit and others seem to do more harm than good, but I have never heard of equine breeders screening to avoid transmitting things like wobblers, cataracts, hip or elbow dysplasia, kidney disease, cardiomyopathy or thyroid problems.

[TrueColours]

cloverlone - I L-O-V-E what you are producing!!! :) Fabulous colouring in talented and athletic bodies - you cant beat that combination! :D

I wonder, do equine breeders run across deafness related to color?

Yes.

The Whatever mare I imported from New Zealand a few years ago was deaf, so was her dam, so was her full sibling. She had the splash gene which made the facial markings (an apron face which is more extensive and larger than a bald face) go right above eye level, to ear level. It is thought that that extensive a facial marking actually kills off the nerve ends going to the ears, hence the deafness associated with the splash gene / apron faces. The Gunner line of reining horses are usually deaf as well (Gunner is also deaf). Generally how this goes with these lines is that if the splash gene is produced, the foal will be deaf

But funnily enough, in other splash producing stallions (Sinatra's Reply being one of them) he is splash and he produces splash foals, but he isnt and his foals arent deaf that we know of so no idea why one bloodline produces deafness and the other one doesnt ...

[cloverlone]

I've had spotted Hol since late 80's and never associated any inherited health problems.

They may be more picky about their owners; they want 'a' person as their rider. hmmm.. I could say that for my imported HOL as well... I'll say they do better with an owner/rider.

Surefooted! :) I used to climb into the mountains with my first stallion. He could be trusted as a guide to get us home; he was also very aware of oncoming traffic. No problem with his hearing! He could pick up mountain bikes 10 minutes out.

As a group, I think they jump/gallop in mud better than the plain bay breeding. At 85-96% Hol ,. they are really just Holsteiners.

g


www.cloverlone.com - Spotted Holsteiner Sport Horses

[camohn]

QUOTE:
I wonder, do equine breeders run across deafness related to color? You read about the bias against certain colors, is that because the color is (or is thought to be) linked to other problems? And if so, how do breeders screen to avoid the problems?


Deafness problems:Just in the splash overo pattern. Unlike the leathal white in the frame overo pattern, there is no DNA test for this problem yet.
With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. Frame is a result of a mutation in the helix pattern so it is an actual "defect" in the DNA and thus has birth defects associated with it in it's homozygous form. Splash is unknown yet. Homozygous Appaloosas have a high incidence of uveits ("moon blindness") though I don't know enough about Appys to know if this is associated with only certain coat patterns or not.

[JB]

I think the Brits have a great deal less prejudice about piebalds and skewbalds than we do over here.
Yep, they have a large contingency of pinto cob-types that are fantastic creatures who can do and are used for all sorts of fun things :yes: Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.


I wonder, do equine breeders run across deafness related to color? You read about the bias against certain colors, is that because the color is (or is thought to be) linked to other problems? And if so, how do breeders screen to avoid the problems?
Deafness exists when you have the Splash gene involved - that's all though. It's not a guarantee, not even if the horse is homozygous Splash. It only occurs when the "lack of pigment" (ie white) makes its way into the inner ear (has little to do with the actual ear color) and causes deafness. You can't screen for it though. Even if/when there is a test for Splash itself (currently being worked on I believe), I think they will find that there isn't a deaf "switch" they can test for, it's all about how the cells migrate during fetal formation.

Some people love working with the deaf horses since noise stimulus doesn't affect them. Others hate it as they feel the horses are more visually stimulated as a result.

[TKR]

Glitter Please, now deceased, competed to GP dressage I believe. He was bought and trained by Gigi Nutter as a yearling. He was a Palomino Thoroughbred and was bred for a few years before his demise.
PennyG

[vineyridge]

Deafness exists when you have the Splash gene involved - that's all though. It's not a guarantee, not even if the horse is homozygous Splash. It only occurs when the "lack of pigment" (ie white) makes its way into the inner ear (has little to do with the actual ear color) and causes deafness. You can't screen for it though. Even if/when there is a test for Splash itself (currently being worked on I believe), I think they will find that there isn't a deaf "switch" they can test for, it's all about how the cells migrate during fetal formation.

This is also true in Dals. If the extreme piebald gene prevents the creation of enough stem cells that produce melanine and the nerves in the inner ear (same stem cells) to make the migration all the way to the inner ear, then the dog will be deaf. Given that all Dals have the extreme piebald gene homozygously, deafness cannot be bred out without losing the coat.

Funny thing about fetal cell migration for color--the reason that so many non colored horses (and dogs) have white only on their faces and feet is that there aren't enough color stem cells to make it all the way to the extremities. And the migration occurs in on each side separately, which is why so much color is asymmetrical.

[Sonesta]

This is also true in Dals. If the extreme piebald gene prevents the creation of enough stem cells that produce melanine and the nerves in the inner ear (same stem cells) to make the migration all the way to the inner ear, then the dog will be deaf. Given that all Dals have the extreme piebald gene homozygously, deafness cannot be bred out without losing the coat.

Funny thing about fetal cell migration for color--the reason that so many non colored horses (and dogs) have white only on their faces and feet is that there aren't enough color stem cells to make it all the way to the extremities. And the migration occurs in on each side separately, which is why so much color is asymmetrical.

Cloverlone, I have admired your horses for a number of years! The spotties are just something very special.

FYI, while there are still only a few Knabstruppers yet in N. America, I am very happy to report that several of them are competing in FEI levels in dressage and Level 6 and above in show jumping!

[Equilibrium]

[QUOTE=JB;4147189]Yep, they have a large contingency of pinto cob-types that are fantastic creatures who can do and are used for all sorts of fun things :yes: Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.



I posted some above that are used for more than just "fun things". And someone posted a link to Utah who is indeed competing at a high level in SJ.

Regardless of where they came from they are in higher levels of sport over here.

Terri

[stolensilver]

There are a few coloured horses competing at top level in showjumping, eventing and dressage. In 1970 Lorna Clark rode Poppadom, a coloured mare, to win Burghley.

In the 1980s Pippa Funnell competed a coloured called Bits and Pieces at 4**** eventing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhB7UTrxJ18

Then there are the two current GP showjumping stallions O'Combo de L'eau and Utah Van Erpekom, both competing international Grand Prix.

There is a fabulous tobiano stallion called Tamberonie who is competing in dressage at small tour level and is on the UK 2012 pathway so is considered one of the best young dressage horses in the country. Sadly he doesn't stand at stud. There is a buckskin gelding called Fiddlesticks that also competes small tour.

I think the main reason there aren't more coloured at the top of the sport is firstly because there are relatively few coloureds being bred compared to non-coloureds. And I also think that there are a depressingly large number of breeders, past and present, who bred for colour at the expense of quality. Fortunately now the quality of coloured horses is improving and there are some out there that are outstanding. Since the popularity of coloured horses is very high I'm sure that there will be more coloured world class athletes appearing in the next few years.

[TrueColours]

And I also think that there are a depressingly large number of breeders, past and present, who bred for colour at the expense of quality. Fortunately now the quality of coloured horses is improving and there are some out there that are outstanding. Since the popularity of coloured horses is very high I'm sure that there will be more coloured world class athletes appearing in the next few years.


And I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head perfectly with these comments ... :)

I agree 100%

[AppJumpr08]

There was (is?) a palomino eventer named Welton Gold whom Julie Richards rode in the early '00s. I want to say he ran around FoxHall in '02, but I really can't recall for sure... also not sure of his breeding, but I would assume he was from the Welton stud in England, and probably has a high percentage of TB in him.

((Please correct me if I'm mistaken! I just googled him and couldn't find much info, so I'm going mostly from memory))

Edited to add: He's listed as a full TB on the USEA site...

[Mythology]

Cloverlone-
A very interesting program. :yes: How long have you been breeding for spots and how did you start? How has your program been accepted by the registries and how are you registering your horses?

I would love to know since I breed dilute Holsteiners (Mostly Holstein Bloodlines, but some different registries).:D

[belambi]

QUOTE:
.
With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. .


Which is why there is no visual similarity between the 'design' of the patterns on clones..

[belambi]

We find with our sportshorses that the best method,especially for colour is to not breed app to app.. ie,this one who is out of a solid app mare by a Warmblood stallion
http://i39.tinypic.com/2wq8krq.jpg

[vineyridge]

Circus is a Shaab son. You can almost guarantee that he didn't get his color from that side of the family but that's where a lot of his eventing prowess came from.

His dam lines don't look TB at all. None of them, except his dam sire are on sporthorse breed database. I looked him up on NED, and they didn't have pedigree information on the dam side. He is an elite level eventer and also has points in straight dressage and Class C show jumping.

These folks are standing three coloured stallions in the UK
http://www.groomsbridgestud.com
One is a cremello from Aurum. To prevent creating another cremello he will not be bred to dilute mares.
Another is Sambertino, who is very flashy and quite lovely, but doesn't seem to have a KWPN breeding license.

[belambi]

Culdoach lady Jane was the dam of a number of seriously succesful event horses..one of them being Windpower Pioneer.. who was also sired by Shaab.
Shaab is the sire also of Uptons Deli Circus, Who is out of a mare out of Culdoach Lady Jane (Hope that makes sense!)
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=30891

[BravAddict]

Which is why there is no visual similarity between the 'design' of the patterns on clones..

What?

[JB]

What?

Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.

[kookicat]

In the 90's Pippa Funnel evented a gelding named Bits and Pieces at 4* level. He was part Tinker Pony.

http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=31416&section=000100010018

[BravAddict]

Clone a pinto and the markings are not identical. Generally they're in the same place, ie a "parent" with white on the face will produce a clone with white on the face, but not the same design.

I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:

With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. .

[belambi]

basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)

[kookicat]

basically i am trying to say something along the lines of..the layout ,or representation of the pattern is not genetic..only the type of pattern is?..(I know..it still sounds wrong!)

I understand what you mean. They type of patten (be it Tobiano, Overo etc), but where the white goes will change.

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I think the main reason there aren't more coloured at the top of the sport is firstly because there are relatively few coloureds being bred compared to non-coloureds. And I also think that there are a depressingly large number of breeders, past and present, who bred for colour at the expense of quality. Fortunately now the quality of coloured horses is improving and there are some out there that are outstanding. Since the popularity of coloured horses is very high I'm sure that there will be more coloured world class athletes appearing in the next few years.

I also agree with this statement. And while there are breeders who are focusing on producing colored sport horses of quality, there just aren't that many being produced yet. And there is probably a reluctance of some top level riders to consider colored horses based on what has been produced in the past.

We breed Trakehners and Appaloosa Sport Horses with focus on athletic ability, conformation, mind, etc. Of course we choose Appaloosas with sport horse type bodies and movement. Our first Trakehner x Appaloosa foal in 2007 was not born with a spotted pattern but we were impressed enough with her mind, spirit and athleticism that we repeated the cross knowing that we had a 50% chance of no pattern again. The 2007 filly is currently an awkward girl but still has a great mind and is becoming a beautiful snowflake roan. Her full sister, Tanzanite, was born a week ago and is a very nice filly topped off with a lovely blanket. I am expecting there to be quite a bit of interest in Tanzanite.

I'd say the market is definitely improving for colored sport horses. I don't know if it will be as great for the upper levels yet but I have been amazed at how much interest we have had in our colored horses versus our purebreds. I decided to keep our 2008 purebred leopard filly Waps A Daisy as a broodmare prospect for this very reason. When I decided not to sell her I had prospective buyers offering me in excess of her already healthy asking price. That is a strong statement in my mind.

We have a homebred Appaloosa X TB stallion (foaled 2004) named Hollywood Hot Spot. His dam was a Holsteiner approved broodmare and has produced some very nice foals. This young stallion has the movement to excel in upper level dressage. We have not tested his interest or aptitude for jumping yet as we are taking it very slow with him. I have the confidence in him to put the money into quality training and seeing just how far we can take him. We are working on getting him started with a upper level eventer very soon but focusing first only on the dressage. I'd like to see more Appaloosas reaching the top levels and I believe in my heart that he could be one of them.

With the interest I have seen in Appaloosa sport horses I am seriously considering breeding my purebred Trakehner mare to our homozygous appaloosa stallion (sire of Hollywood Hot Spot) for a 2010 foal. That would be a beautiful cross and we would be guaranteed a spotted pattern at birth...a win-win. And since the stallion carries the cream gene we'd have the potential bonus of palomino or buckskin to top it off.

[BravAddict]

This I know. Did your comment have nothing to do with the second part of the statement?

Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them.

[dressuursport]

Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here.

JB nailed the cause for most of the prejudice against colored horses. There are many people who don't know the difference between Paint and pinto, and assume everything colored is some sort of Paint/QH/stockhorse/undesirable. They don't realize you can now get warmbloods and well bred sporthorses with pretty colors and not even a drop of stockhorse blood.

[Fancy That]

Utah Van Erpekom has done rather well as a Grand Prix Show Jumper with John Whittaker. I believe Utah is indisputably the most successful Pinto Stallion in sport...world wide... ever. I can't think of any Pinto stallion anywhere in the world that even comes close to what Utah has accomplished in sport. Here is a link to Utah’s website and a few YouTube videos of him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ExePa8_Jc&feature=related

http://www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk/news.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qzFaZdFIs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK7BZi5i-88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj3C2YHf-K0&feature=related


and, just have to add this link to John and the great show jumper Milton (with Tina Turner)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pxwYCURa3U

When this thread popped up, the first thing I thought of is Utah. How can one argue with that talent? The boy's got HOPS! I don't think John would care if he was purple!

[SilverSpringFarm]

I should have clarified. I'm unclear on how that relates to what camohn said:

"With different coat patterns they have different sources. Tobiano and sabino only affect protein (coat color) regulation and there are no problems/defects associated with them. ."

With frame overo you have the possibility of lethal white. With splash you have the possibility of deafness. Tobiano and sabino have no known physical defects associated with them. I believe that is what you were asking but I may be mistaken.

[woweezowee]

I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"

this is what might be keeping the "spots and stripes" out of the ring (for hunters and hunter breeding). We are a small family farm and each foal is a big investment (money, time, and a breeding season for the 2 broodmares we have). Especially in these economic times, people might not be willing to take the risks of breeding if there's already a given prejudice floating around at the Rated & big local shows.

YET I am not in the market for a horse but my jaw drops every time I see a paint in the ring or for sale online. AND every little girl wants a flashy pony!

Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

:confused:

[BravAddict]

Hm, no. I'm aware of that, though.

This is my question:

Camohn said, rightly, that different coat patterns have different sources. They are on different genes, of course, but I think she meant that with tobiano and sabino, the DNA "copyediting software" of the body can pare out some of the KIT sequences that were inverted (as in tobiano), or missing an exon (as in sabino1). This means that even in the homozygous state, there is still a way to make enough proper KIT protein for the animal to survive. By contrast, the mutation on the EDNRB gene is a complete loss-of-function, without any way to "rescue" the directions for making the EDNRB protein. In the heterozygous state, all the "bum" copies of EDNRB are just thrown out and the good copies are used where the protein is critical. This gives us the frame pattern, with a normal bowel. The protein is required to innervate the colon. If there is no normal copy of EDNRB, there is also no way for the "copyediting software" to repair it. This, presumably, is what makes frame/LWO and potentially DW "lethal." I'm just thanking our collective lucky stars that if DW is lethal, it's lethal before we have some newborn, downy-white darling asleep in the straw.
Essentially, I believe camohn was commenting on the fact that the NATURE of the mutation plays a role in whether it is deleterious or not.

My confusion is that belambi responded to this saying "Which is why there is no visual similarity between the "design" of the patterns on clones..". Again, the substance is true; clones do not have the exact same markings. If anyone (and this I very much doubt) read what I wrote on the other thread, I talked about stochastic events and their role in white markings. To sum it up very briefly, a zygote goes from 1 cell to billions during development, which is MANY rounds of division and MANY little "events" that go one way or another, randomly. These events affect the visual appearance of white markings, and in a process of THAT many steps, it's simply impossible to exactly replicate the same exact process. If you flip a coin 100 times and record each H/T result, and then repeat it, do you think the pattern of heads-tails-tails-tails-heads-etc. would be exactly the same? Certainly not. So that is why clones do not have the exact same outline of their markings.
I am unclear how her statement depends on camohn's comments.."Which is why". Is my question clear now?

[JB]

I just proposed breeding our TB mare to a colourful sport pony... Family member: "there's no market for that. how many paints did you see in the ring at Devon this year?"
Omega produced a very fancy, minimally marked Tobiano mare named All Dressed UP who placed 2nd at Devon (and Upperville). Claim to Fame won Best Colt at Devon in 2000.

Are they common? No. Why? For the same reason these 2 (3?) current threads have been going on - they are a minority to begin with, therefore in any given sporthorse venue they are much less likely to even be there, much less win.

If everyone keeps the attitude "well you don't see them at Devon" then they will never get there ;)


Q: So many hunter horse ads stress "chrome" and a lot of people breed for white markings (stockings and big blazes)... but not for even a little more white? And, does the "hunter prejudice" against colour have to do with the original use of hunters as in, the horse best matched to the traditional hunt (most true to type?)?

:confused:
A: it goes back to what we talked about earlier - in the English world, the prejudice was, for a long time, that "spots = stock horse therefore not suitable to hunters/dressage/jumpers." Then Art Deco and a few others came along, and there has been a growing fascination with the colors and spots :)

[dressuursport]

woweezowee you've unintentionally illustrated one of the main problems facing pinto warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as far as stereotyping and prejudice. This was what was touched on earlier, by JB, myself and others.

There are many people like you and your family member who see a pinto, and think Paint. Because Paints are mostly viewed negatively in the warmblood/sporthorse world (and aren't accepted into most of the respected registries), it can lead to stereotyping and prejudice against all pintos, when people see them and automatically assume they must be Paints.

There are pinto warmbloods and sporthorses out there with no Paint in their pedigrees whatsoever. (There are palomino, buckskin, and cremellos which are warmbloods too, with no stockhorse breeding.)

Public perception and awareness of color possibilities hasn't caught up with the progress we've made in breeding.

Wowee, I wouldn't rule out breeding for a pinto. If you're new to "colour", you may want to see this site www.silverwoodfarm.com With a TB mare your foal should even be eligible for warmblood registration, if you choose an approved warmblood stallion. A registered pinto warmblood is worlds away from a Paint.

from a previous post on this thread:
Over here, "color" is typically thought of as belong to the stock-type horses which just aren't suitable (in general!) for the sporthorse disciplines we're talking about here. JB nailed the cause for most of the prejudice against colored horses. There are many people who don't know the difference between Paint and pinto, and assume everything colored is some sort of Paint/QH/stockhorse/undesirable. They don't realize you can now get warmbloods and well bred sporthorses with pretty colors and not even a drop of stockhorse blood.

[JB]

A registered pinto warmblood is worlds away from a Paint.

I am sure *I* know what you mean, but I think others might take this the wrong way, so if I may :)

There are some really, really nice APHA (paint) horses out there who are largely TB and you'd never know they had any stockhorse blood in them at all. Take a look at any spotted HUS horse and you'll see what I mean. Even a full TB can be registered APHA, therefore technically (also) be a Paint. It just won't be Tobiano ;) And, technically, that horse could be approved for WB breeding (though I'm sure all the WB registries would have just keeled over at the thought of approving a horse who looked like Racey Remarque :lol::lol::lol:)

[M. O'Connor]

Just wondering here. Over the years, there have been some very, very nicely bred "coloured" horses (I'm using the British spelling out of respect for their very respectful "coloured" showing divisions!). But with only a very few exceptions--and those almost exclusively in hunters or dressage and almost exclusively WBs, it seems to me--no Appaloosa, Pinto, Paint or Palomino crosses have reached a kind of "famous" level in eventing or jumpers, and very few in dressage or hunters.

Is there a particular reason, do you think? Any of the following?

A. With even just a smidgen of colored blood, the result lacks sufficient talent.
B. Not enough of them are being bred, so the odds are against one having enough talent to get to the top.
C. The WAY they are produced (what is crossed to get them) precludes producing top-level talent.
D. Riders capable of or seriously looking to get to the top won't give them a second glance, so they never get the opportunity to prove their talent.
E. No one (or just very few) buy them or breed them as potential top-level talent, so they become self-fulfilling proficies.
F. Those who like them can't afford to (or just don't care to) take them as far as they might go (in those particular sports, that is).
G. Something else.

Again, just curious as I wait for the rain to end so I can pick up a load of hay.

I would guess a combination of C, E, and F.

When someone first comes to the sport, the thing that jumps out is color. Some people never get past that, even though they become breeders. What they look for is COLOR, and performance is incidental. A true measure of performance is open competition, not breed competition.

I honestly do not have a color bias (my first horse was a palomino paint), but when judging, I see very few horses of color that perform well enough for me to use them in the higher placings. It seems colored horses are more numerous in the lower levels, where what we used to call a "grade" blooded horse provides a more suitable ride for lower level riders.

Interestingly, this applies more to horses than ponies. Colored ponies don't seem to lack in quality across the board, the way colored horses seem to.

I guess if you purposefully went toward PERFORMING color, you could manage to produce some nice horses (Art Deco comes to mind). Otherwise, I'd have to look at the performance records of the sires and dams being used, and conclude that there really isn't much there to begin with.

[woweezowee]

woweezowee you've unintentionally illustrated one of the main problems facing pinto warmblood/sporthorse breeders, as far as stereotyping and prejudice. This was what was touched on earlier, by JB, myself and others.

There are many people like you and your family member who see a pinto, and think Paint. Because Paints are mostly viewed negatively in the warmblood/sporthorse world (and aren't accepted into most of the respected registries), it can lead to stereotyping and prejudice against all pintos, when people see them and automatically assume they must be Paints.

I know the difference between a pinto and a paint

(even though I incorrectly said "YET I am not in the market for a horse but my jaw drops every time I see a paint in the ring or for sale online" (and I meant that in a positive, "so jealous I don't have that horse" jaw-dropping way))

But, it proves that even some experienced horse people aren't aware that pinto coloring isn't genetically unique to stock horses AND in my family's case, that people aren't of this (as in this thread) : the amount of people who are pushing for "colour blind" or at least colour neutral treatment.

BTW, I am looking for a pinto sportpony/part welsh stallion for my mare. Any suggestions?

[TrueColours]

My Puchi Trap mare is dual registered as a Paint with the APHA in the Regular Registry so any/all of her offspring by a TB stallon, can achieve dual registration status - either Breeding Stock or Regular Registry - depending on how much white they have

A huge portion of my buying market used to be the Paint people, looking for a full TB for the HUS classes, that also had APHA papers. They did find though that most trainers tried to train the yearling and 2 year old TB's in the same way as they trained the yearling and 2 year old APHA youngsters. The trainers didnt appear to be willing to change their training methods to accomodate the different TB way of doing things and the TB youngsters didnt thrive on the box they were being asked to squish into and so the full TB's fell out of favor rather quickly with the APHA crowd for the HUS classes ... ;)

[florida foxhunter]

JB.....you may not be seeing them at Devon lately, but they have won! Again, one has to breed for conformation and quality first, not color........and then pray the "spots" land in the right place....
We were very fortuate with Claim to Fame. Not only did he WIN at Devon (came in RIGHT behind Kenny Wheeler in Best Young Horse TOO!)......he also WON MANY TIMES IN conformation Models (Green Conformation divisions)........beating an ENTIRE class of SOLID horses!!!
It's just very hard to get the quality, conformation, color in the right places and then money to campaign them (these days especially) !! BUT>>>>>it can be done! Many of his foals have done well too........they're finally just getting into the ring u/s now!

I'll add a photo of his latest daughter........I have high hopes for her too! (the photo thingy wasn't working....I'll add it later)