How many breeders AI their mares themselves?

[LostCreekFrm]

I was just curious as to how many breeders AI their mares themselves? If so, where did you learn how to do it? It just seems to me that if you were able to do it properly, it would be easier to do it yourself than have the vet out to do it or bring your mare to the vet clinic. You'd also save a little bit of money too which always helps when it comes to breeding!

ETA: I guess this mainly applies to using fresh as I know that using frozen can be much trickier and should probably be done by the vet, unless the breeder is very experienced

[Spike]

I do it for fresh semen, but not for frozen... not the same costs involved, not the same equipment needed, as you said.
;)
I have a good rate up until now. And it's pretty more convenient than to always have to schedule the vet etc.. We'll hope for that good mood to continue as I still have 2 mares to breed this year (they have not foaled yet)!

[DownYonder]

The title of this thread made me laugh - reminded me of the story a few years back about the woman who collected her husband's semen and then used a turkey baster to inseminate herself. :lol:

[LostCreekFrm]

LOL Downyonder, I already edited it once because I re-read it and thought it sounded bad too! Oh well...:lol:

[cyriz's mom]

I AI my mares. Of course, it's easy when you have the mares and stallion in the same place. Tease mares, collect stallion, process semen, AI. Have vet check a couple of weeks later.

[Edgewood]

I do AI cooled shipped. Not frozen (since you need the vet to u/s the mare closely). Thus, I usually use only cooled.

I learned in grad school at CSU (in Equine Repro)

[rideagoldenpony]

I AI my mares. Of course, it's easy when you have the mares and stallion in the same place. Tease mares, collect stallion, process semen, AI. Have vet check a couple of weeks later.

Ditto!

[Formosus]

Yup, do it myself unless its frozen.

[paintjumper]

I went to Colo. St. for the training. I was a lab tech before I went to nursing school so it was very easy for me to be in the lab. I also bought my own ultra sound machine and did all my own work for that too, so it was very easy for me to do it all without any extra expense. My motive for the U/S was that the vet with one was too far away for the trips with 12 mares. The first year I met myself coming and going on the interstate!!!

[genevieveg17]

I do most of the inseminations. Fresh and frozen. With frozen I use the timed insemination protocol and have had very good luck.
I took one of Equine Repro's short courses.

[Oakstable]

Are you guys tall with long arms?

My vet is tall with long arms and I see him really working to clean out a mare and check her.

The AI part of it seems pretty straight forward.

[LostCreekFrm]

Are there any short courses available online? Thanks!

[Amoroso]

I'm going out to a friend's place this year to learn. They breed around 50 mares a year at their place, and I'll get to do lots. Should be fun!

For this year, we are still using the vet though!

[hansiska]

Here's a recent thread on the subject:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=194739&highlight=inseminate+your+own

[szipi]

It's the only way I can be effective as a breeder. When I lived in Iowa, I lived 10 minutes from the verschool and I had a special relationship with them. Just dropped mares off in the AM, picked them up after school...They were also cheap. But in my current situation this is the only way to go. Insemination is easy to learn and it's hard to screw up. you still need the vet for timing, but you save tons of vet visits etc. etc.

[ponygirl]

I wish we had a class in Florida to teach this. I can think of quite a few who'd jump at going.

[NoDQhere]

I was taught years ago by my friend who was also a Vet :), and have always done ours. I don't palpate and haven't done frozen. But the AI is not hard to learn or do.

[Peg]

Do you use stocks or sedate the mare? Peg

[Olympussporthorses]

I AI my own mares when I use my stallion. We ground collect him, process the semen and then AI the mare.

[pwynnnorman]

I AI my own, too (cooled, of course). I started doing it after hearing of a Standardbred breeder who not only did his own AI, but never used a vet either, except for cultures if he thought they were needed. He teased and charted and started "reaching in" on Day 3. Thereafter, if the cervix was open, he'd dump stuff in. If it wasn't, he wouldn't! (This guy was in the mountains of Central NY, BTW--a particular local not unlike, at the time, which was quite a few years ago, the mountains of WV.)

Back then, I'd thought that just reaching in and judging when to inseminate based on the state of the cervix was a bad idea because of the way you can introduce contamination, but the vet who told me about the breeder (and, yeah, we used to call her a "cow vet" for her earthy, practical nature) said that a penis is a heck of a lot dirtier and gets used (on the same mare) a lot more than a human reaching in once a day or so.

Interesting, huh? I still go with ultrasound to increase accuracy (and just for planning purposes since I don't collect on the farm--might in the future, though, since The Colonel ground collects and maybe he can teach me how to teach Kevvie, too).

But I should add that learning how to AI is super easy. I once talked a friend through it over the phone (she was jsut learning, using a old mare she wasn't going to breed). Once you're in, there's not a heck of a lot to deal with. It's getting there that can complicate things.

[Oakstable]

Wow, I had no idea that this was becoming so commonplace.

So how do your vets feel about the loss in business?

[pwynnnorman]

Funny you should bring that up as I got to feeling a bit sorry/guilty about my vet just the other day. In 2008 and 2007, I spent a mint on vet repro stuff, which probably got expectations up, so-to-speak. This year, I leased a specific stallion to avoid the expense (while not decreasing the marketability of the resulting foals), so I hadn't had my vet out for any repro stuff at all until the other day when I had her come to preg check three mares (all of which turned out to be pregnant, which I was already quite sure of but needed to make sure the last and most important one didn't have twins).

I'd say she (my vet) was visibly disappointed to discover not only had I foaled out the old mare, but also bred her with foal at side, plus a maiden and a third mare, all without her help.

Must be tough on the single-vet practices these days. My vet isn't in that kind of practice, but it sounds like she's responsible for getting and keeping her own client base in a similar way. Tough times for everyone these days, alas.

[Edgewood]

Wow, I had no idea that this was becoming so commonplace.

So how do your vets feel about the loss in business?
My vet prefers that I do it. She ususally ultrasounds 1X to time the breeding and then I obtain the semen (cooled shipped), bred and give hCG, and tease mare. She comes out 14 d after I think that the mare would have ovulated. We have been doing this for 6+ years. She is really busy and in a single-vet practice, so if she can save some time go to to breed mares whose owners don't know how to AI, she is happy. I also do my own infusions/flushes and the vet gives me the IV bags with the correct antibiotics (usually infuse over 4 days and give oxytocin after each flush).

I don't use stocks for breeding and most times no drugs either (but for maidens the 1st time, my vet does give me 1 dose of rompun. But otherwise, the old, experienced mares stand just fine for breeding).

[Oakstable]

It wasn't that long ago that the vets were highly protective of their AI business. A mare owner could AI his/her own mare, but would be subject to fines if the mare was owned by someone else.

I recently saw a repro clinic ad and it looked like there were people doing the work who weren't DVMs.

So what's the deal?

My vet has been super on getting pregnancies on one insemination. But if that would ever change, I would sure be motivated to learn but better yet to trailer to a friend's house with experience.

[pintopiaffe]

For years my Reprogod Vet kept telling me a 'trained monkey' could do the AI part. That I only needed him for the ultrasounds, etc. Well, last year, this monkey finally did!

He'd been encouraging me for a long time to do it, I obviously know the mechanics of it as I've bred LC for years. Tranny went on my truck so I couldn't trailer in, I had two mares timed in with semen on the way... I did it.

I plan to use the biorelease altrenogest protocol again this year and do them this year *deliberately,* with vet's blessing. I still have to trailer in for ultrasounds, breeding checks etc. and still need his Rx for the timing--so obviously couldn't be doing it without his blessing.

[Blacktree]

We do AI ourselves (with fresh), our vet is fine with it since he is still making some money on ultrasounds and collections. :)

[DownYonder]

LOL Downyonder, I already edited it once because I re-read it and thought it sounded bad too! Oh well...:lol:

LOL, I had opened the thread with the old title ("How many breeders AI themselves?"), started to reply, then got distracted (by my boss!). I guess you edited the title while I still had it opened. :lol:

[Sonesta]

LOL, I had opened the thread with the old title ("How many breeders AI themselves?"), started to reply, then got distracted (by my boss!). I guess you edited the title while I still had it opened. :lol:

I do my own AI after taking Kathy St. Martin and Jos Mottershead's course about 9 years ago. Use the P&E protocol and timed insemination protocols and have had very good success. Use the vet only for 14, 30 and 60 day ultrasounds.

EXCEPT..... when doing a "custom foal," I stil use a vet. I just feel that when someone is paying for the costs associated with making the foal, I prefer that they have the peace of mind of a repro vet on the breeding end instead of me - in case it takes more than one cycle.

[Equine Reproduction]

I wish we had a class in Florida to teach this. I can think of quite a few who'd jump at going.

We will probably be holding one in Myakka City, Florida in January 2010. We've cut wayyyy back on the number of short courses we are holding each year, but we do a course every other year with a large Appaloosa breeder there. It's a great location, they have a nicely set up breeding operation and it's actually quite a fun course.

As it is now, we're going to hold a course this fall in Gloucester, England. So anyone that wants to attend a course AND make a vacation of it, that's the course for you <smile>. We had a blast when we held the course there this spring. It looks like it will also be DEFRA certified for those of you that are in England, as well. Otherwise, the only other courses we currently have scheduled are the three day courses in Pomona, California and Fayetteville, Arkansas and an ET course in Pomona in February.

Hope that helps!

[EquusMagnificus]

I am hoping to learn this year!

My vet's is very understanding of us wanting to cut our costs down and there seems to be very few vet who actually "enjoy" repro work. It requires frequent visits and hassle; while it might be worthwhile $$$ I think some of them don't want to deal with the responsibility factor... Mare owners CAN be agressive! :winkgrin:

[Kyzteke]

Do you use stocks or sedate the mare? Peg

I do my own AI with both chilled & frozen, although in both cases we use the vet & hormones to help with timing.

I was already a nurse when I took the CSU course and I'd actually already had a mare who needed several infusions, so my vet taught me how to do it. Then she said, "see, you already know how to do AI -- just with that you use semen instead of antibiotics!".

It really isn't hard -- what's hard is doing it by yourself, keeping the glove sterile, etc.

As for the mares -- I just got some new mares, but prior to that most of the mares I'm AI'ing were bred by me & I've handled them all their lives. But even so, most mares in heat are very tolerant of activity "back there," and I've never had one be a problem.

Early on I use to sedate them, but now I just go slow, use plenty of fly spray & lube!! They are just tied up in the stall or, if I really worry about it, I put them in my horse trailer. A four horse straight load makes good "stocks" if you put the mare all the way in the front, then drop the butt bar. Voila! Stocks!

I like doing my own mares. I know it's done right and it's usually more convenient. Plus it saves me $75 each time.

You know, I have one mare who has never had a foal I didn't AI -- poor gal...not much of a sex life.

[Equine Reproduction]

It wasn't that long ago that the vets were highly protective of their AI business. A mare owner could AI his/her own mare, but would be subject to fines if the mare was owned by someone else.

Not true. AIing has been strongly protected by the livestock industry. Indeed, in most states' Vet Practice acts it is exempted. The laws vary significantly from state to state as to what a lay person is permitted to do and what they are not, but almost universally, artificial insemination, collecting stallions and processing semen, etc., are exempted. California is interesting in that a layperson can actually ultrasound or palpate for pregnancy prior to breeding.

I recently saw a repro clinic ad and it looked like there were people doing the work who weren't DVMs.

So what's the deal?

See above. It very much depends on the specific state. We do most of the repro work here at our facility in Oklahoma, but we also have a staff veterinarian. As it is very much a specialized field, most vets cannot rely solely on equine reproductive work to support them and their business. They make more and better money on other aspects of veterinary care. Quite often, horse breeders are motivated to get pregnancies with the minimum amount of time, energy and money. Consequently many work very hard at staying up on latest techniques, technology, research, etc. And practical experience is often the best teacher.

[Peg]

A four horse straight load makes good "stocks" if you put the mare all the way in the front, then drop the butt bar. Voila! Stocks! Just so happens I have that type of trailer! You are so smart! Peg

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I went through CSU's Equine Repro program and do some of my own inseminations here on the farm but usually only the second insemination of fresh. I don't have stocks and am still trying to get my rear in gear to buy and install them so I can do more here by my lonesome including flushing mares when necessary.

My vet also enjoys working with me and teaching me. There was a time that I used to ride with him all day on his farm calls and assist him so that I could learn as much as possible. He always tells me I should have been a vet.

He told me that he doesn't mind teaching me to do more repro tasks for my own horses because that frees up his time to go to larger farms and crank out more service in one location (ie. more efficient money-making). He does a lot of repro work, embryo transfers, etc. and doesn't need my AI business to stay afloat.

[Rendaivu]

We do our own as well and took a weekend course to learn. We are doing fresh and frozen. For fresh we have our vet out to see where we are at timing wise and do inseminations and HCG. Frozen is not all that much different but super stressful the first time :) Figuring out how to get straws out quickly and not burning your fingers is tricky the first time. For frozen with two doses we HCG at a 35, then put a dose in at 24 hours post and another dose in at 36.

Our vet is fantastic and super into teaching and helping.

[Oakstable]

Interesting about California. I only live here and have been misinformed about what the lay person can do in equine repro with mares owned by others.

The vets have been protective of dental work even though most don't seem to be that interested in it.

I use a non-DVM dentist for basic floating.

With so many mare owners doing both fresh and frozen themselves, no wonder so many MO are using frozen to keep the costs under control.

[HrsJmpr81]

It wasn't that long ago that the vets were highly protective of their AI business. A mare owner could AI his/her own mare, but would be subject to fines if the mare was owned by someone else.

I recently saw a repro clinic ad and it looked like there were people doing the work who weren't DVMs.

So what's the deal?

My vet has been super on getting pregnancies on one insemination. But if that would ever change, I would sure be motivated to learn but better yet to trailer to a friend's house with experience.

Its an issue of semantics.

Ultrasound is a diagnostic tool. In order to use it's findings to determine if a horse is ready for breeding it either must be your own horse or you must be a vet - otherwise you will be severely penalized. Its considered practicing veterinary medicine, and doing so without a license is bad.

AI however, I think falls under the realm of "treatments". So long as you aren't making any diagnostic or prognostic assumptions, you can perform the actual AI itself without inciting any penalties.

Most repro clinics will show the ultrasound portion to educate owners on what they're looking at, but not necessarily so they can use it themselves. There ARE breeders who own ultrasounds to check both their own and their client's mares, but that's not really legal. AI clinics supported by vet schools are designed to show owners how to check, prep and breed their own mares for education purposes, increased pregnancy success rates, and decreased reliance on vets to do ALL the work. Trust me, repro vets have plenty of work to do even with people doing their own AI!

So yeah...hope that kind of answers the question.

[ljshorses]

I do my own AI and infusions. It is very easy. We built our own stocks it was out of things we just happened to have. First we used a 12X12 stall, hung a 10' gate on back wall that could be secured closed at back wall if need stall. When it opened it left enough width from right side wall of stall to fit a big warmblood mare (used our biggest very prego mare as a model to know how wide that area should be). Then we hung a "man gate" we made of old wood boards on right side of wall so it could also be secured closed when not in use. When using it for stocks, we just walk mare into stall, pull gate towards her and secure "man gate" to the 10' gate and thats it. I tied mare at front and but is at man gate so if she kicks she can't do much. Since it is a fairly close squeeze they can't move much at all in there. I have used this very well by myself. Even if foal at side, I turn foal lose on other side of 10' gate within the 12X12 stall and have hung a web stall guard to keep him from coming out.

[Equine Reproduction]

Its an issue of semantics.

Ultrasound is a diagnostic tool. In order to use it's findings to determine if a horse is ready for breeding it either must be your own horse or you must be a vet - otherwise you will be severely penalized. Its considered practicing veterinary medicine, and doing so without a license is bad.

Again, not necessarily true. It "is" an issue of semantics to a certain degree, but it also depends on what exactly you are doing. Measuring a follicle, determining that there is fluid in the uterus, etc., is NOT diagnosing. Just like when you go in to a hospital and have an ultrasound done by a technician, they are NOT diagnosing. They are, however, identifying. That information they pass on to a physician who can then use the information to come up with a diagnosis or treatment.

As I noted in my previous response to Oakstable, a layperson can determine if a mare is pregnant prior to breeding her in California. Here in Oklahoma, I can determine pregnancy and actually charge for it without a veterinarian. The Vet Practice Acts vary considerably from state to state. Additionally, in California a layperson can ultrasound, lavage, etc., other peoples' horses so long as they don't charge for it.

AI however, I think falls under the realm of "treatments". So long as you aren't making any diagnostic or prognostic assumptions, you can perform the actual AI itself without inciting any penalties.

Nope. It is, in almost every state, exempted entirely. When dealing with livestock, most states recognize that in order to be cost effective and be able to produce a product that is affordable and profitable, certain procedures cannot fall under and be restricted. Castrating cattle, for example. De-horning, etc. In most states, horses are considered livestock - California being the sole exception, I believe - and consequently, when the Vet Board attempts to restrict procedures that will impact livestock breeders, farmers, etc., the Farm Bureau will usually step in and campaign against just such restrictions. And let's face it, most vets do not wish to spend 45 minutes on a farm call that will only produce a minimal amount of income when they can be spaying or neutering several cats during the same period of time. Additionally, the vet industry is seeing a real dearth in large animal veterinarians graduating from universities. It is having a major impact on the livestock industry and there are consequently going to need to be some changes made. I would love to see some sort of "nurse practitioner" type program enacted in order to insure that there is a level of competency and that the "practitioner" is working with and has a support system behind them.

Most repro clinics will show the ultrasound portion to educate owners on what they're looking at, but not necessarily so they can use it themselves. There ARE breeders who own ultrasounds to check both their own and their client's mares, but that's not really legal.

Again, it depends on the state and the clinic. Many private breeders have staff veterinarians that work with them. And, quite honestly, many private facilities are more competent at the task themselves! When one considers that unless a veterinarian has done a rotation through equine reproduction at university, he/she comes out having put their hand in less than 10 mares! It literally is an art to becoming a competent palpator/ultrasound technician. And, practice most emphatically makes one all the mroe competent.

AI clinics supported by vet schools are designed to show owners how to check, prep and breed their own mares for education purposes, increased pregnancy success rates, and decreased reliance on vets to do ALL the work. Trust me, repro vets have plenty of work to do even with people doing their own AI!

Most definitely. We find that most veterinarians that we work with are thrilled to have educated, well informed mare owners that are willing and able to do at least the basic work themselves. And, if the mare owner understands what the vet is doing and why, it saves having to explain every little thing. Where it does become a concern is a layperson with just a couple mares that wishes to learn to palpate and/or ultrasound. In order to be competent, we estimate that it takes at least 100 guided palpations/ultrasounds. And, to maintain that competency, you need to be doing LOTS of them every year. A mare owner with less than 10 mares isn't going to probably be doing enough to maintain that competency level and there is a significant risk of a rectal tear! If a rectal tear occurs, most laypeople aren't going to know what to do or have the necessary drugs, etc., to be able to deal with things until they are able to get the mare to a surgical facility.

There is a fine line. We see a lot of frustration with mare owners in that there just aren't enough repro vets out there. Those that are good at what they do and have a high level of success are busy and don't particularly want to make farm calls...understandably! And many breeders are remote and just don't have access to a vet that specializes in equine reproduction. We regularly hear horror stories about what the local cattle vet suggested as a treatment that would be fine for a cow, but...well...probably not appropriate for a horse. Heck, more than a handful of cow vets will tell mare owners not to worry about a placenta that's still hanging there six hours after foaling! It's not their fault that they're not well versed in equine reproduction...heck I marvel at how much information veterinarians have to keep filed in their brains! All we do is equine reproduction so just dealing with one aspect of one species and there are times when I think my head is going to explode with all the new information and research that keeps coming out.

In any event, hope the above helps clarify a few things.

[paulamc]

I do all my AI work, with frozen semen mainly. I am in Australia, it was not at all easy to learn, but after years of awful vet bills for no result, and i mean one year a vet bill of $24 000 for NO pregnancies, i decided i had to learn

I had been watching the vet scan for years, so had a basic rudimentary knowledge of what follicles looked like and post AI procedures

I bought my own scanner, bought as many books as i could find on the subject, and then had a go with some of my quiet mares. At first it was awful, i had a hard time finding the follicle, it wasnt too bad on the left side but the right side tends to hide a bit and is alot more difficult. But it is just practice.
By the end of the second season i was pretty good with the scanner, could easily find follicles on each side and follow them through to ovulation. I could also recognize and deal with fluid
So far i have not had any real problem mares, as i know all my mares pretty well

I dont think i could deal with a real problem breeder, i would need a vets advice

I did do a course to learn how to inseminate, which i find harder than the scanning - i think its meant to be theother way round

Now i am on my own with the AI, i have discovered a new passion with it, it was simply to be a means to an end, but i just love it

My first season on my own i got 5 mares into frozen semen on the first insemiantion,and i never had a result like that with any vet

I do have trouble with preg tests sometimes, but can always get the vet for any problems i have

I fully recommend taking the plunge, to any breeder, you wont regret it, you will eventually get the hang of the scanning and it will pay for itself within the first year

If i can do it, anyone can do it. i am not a science type person, its just paying attention to the small details and being prepared to educate yourself and ask millions of questions

My next goal it to learn how to do embryo transfer, but no vet wants to take me on for that of course as i am not a vet student

paulamc