Availability of BN Thoroughbred Stallions

[TKR]

Had an email that the Thoroughbred stallion, Badge is being offered for sale. He is a Grade 1 SW, winning 5 of 12 starts, 2 of those graded stakes, finished 3rd in the Preakness and has a good sire record. He is 4x4 to Bold Ruler, (once thru Raja Baba) in the same place in his pedigree top and bottom, also has My Babu, Buckpasser and Nashua (another cross to Nasrullah) as well as Intentionally (sire of In Reality). He raced until 4 (stakes placed), free of the Mr. P blood. He is 16.1H, chestnut in color, have no idea what the price is and not connected with him. Just a comment since we seem to constantly hear that the BN TB stallions/mares "aren't available" to the sport breeders because of the price tag/stud fee. So here is an example of a stallion that could be procured. He raced at distances from 6F to 1 3/16 miles, has a family of sporthorse connections, etc. I'm sure Viney can give us a more in-depth look at his pedigree.This is just an example of what becomes available frequently because they get spun out for whatever reason. He is not the most commercial bloodlines of the moment, more older lines. It's just a matter of learning the bloodlines and keeping an eye on that market if there is an interest in preserving these for the future, particularly if you know them and have some idea of what you would like to have.
PennyG

[vineyridge]

I'm still grieving over Running Stag who got shipped off to Korea because he wasn't doing well fast enough to suit the breeding for selling people. I hope Badge doesn't get sent to Turkey or Korea so his blood will still be available here.

[TKR]

OMG!! I didn't know Running Stag went to Korea -- how sad!! He sure was a nice one -- so many "slip by" that the sporthorse breeders could probably benefit from in a big way, but no one watches that market or makes any contacts. You hear they are "looking" for the next important Thoroughbred stallion for the sportsmarket -- but is that really true? I wonder "who" is looking and where??? The ones that are really "commercial" would not be as interesting as the ones getting sold/shipped that have bloodlines and type that would matter to the sport disciplines moreso than racing, even though they may have raced well and sired winners. I dunno ...

PennyG

[LaurieB]

I'm still grieving over Running Stag who got shipped off to Korea because he wasn't doing well fast enough to suit the breeding for selling people. I hope Badge doesn't get sent to Turkey or Korea so his blood will still be available here.

The notion that Running Stag was sold to South Korea because "wasn't doing well fast enough to suit the breeding for selling people" has no basis in fact. He was shipped there this year at the age of 15 after having sired 6 crops of racing age which included only 6 stakes winners. If 6 crops on the track isn't considered to be a fair trial, I don't know what would.

In his last U.S year at stud (2008) he stood in Louisiana and was bred to just 20 mares. You may be grieving over his loss but did you breed to him when he was here? The reason he left is because not enough U.S. breeders showed an interest in using his services.

[grayarabpony]

OMG!! I didn't know Running Stag went to Korea -- how sad!! He sure was a nice one -- so many "slip by" that the sporthorse breeders could probably benefit from in a big way, but no one watches that market or makes any contacts. You hear they are "looking" for the next important Thoroughbred stallion for the sportsmarket -- but is that really true? I wonder "who" is looking and where??? The ones that are really "commercial" would not be as interesting as the ones getting sold/shipped that have bloodlines and type that would matter to the sport disciplines moreso than racing, even though they may have raced well and sired winners. I dunno ...

PennyG

My guess is that European breeders are looking in Europe -- I didn't think many people were looking for sporthorse TB stallions here, which is a real loss.

[vineyridge]

1. His stud fee was too high for what he was.
2. Not having a mare that was of an age to breed killed any thoughts of using him last year.
3. His connections did absolutely nothing to try and market him to sport horse people.

The latter is part of the reason that the full TB is vanishing in sport. If the TB industry would consider sport horse careers to be as valuable as racing careers for the offspring, then they would support sport horse breeding for full TBs. But they don't. :( The only stats of any value for TB sires are number of winners, black type, and money won in racing.

[TKR]

That's true -- the sporthorse "stats" are pretty fragmented or unavailable to do the stallions much good and if they aren't racing stats they don't really feel it's useful. IN addition, what I *think* is detrimental in a huge way is that there is no AI for JC registration. So, these guys don't have any setup for that and probably fear repercussions from the JC if they did (suspecting they were AI'ing TB mares and sending in registration papers). So, it's really unfortunate when so many of these very useful stallions could be used in a different market to generate income. It's really a shame the two markets are so walled off from one another -- I don't think alot of the farms standing TB stallions know anything about the sports market or that it could be useful to them. They need a seminar or something!
PennyG

[vineyridge]

What's so sad about Running Stag is that he sired very durable race horses, who may not have been stakes quality, but earned a whale of a lot of money. He himself didn't hit his racing stride until he was 4 or 5, got better every year, raced till seven, I think. His progeny earning records show more than just a couple with 300k, 400k and over life time earnings to date. The number with well over 100k is significant. Or it is to me.

He was slow maturing and comes from slow maturing and stamina lines. That's just not popular in today's racing; and the lack of popularity is definitely having an impact on the American TB.

I hope he doesn't end up as steak in a Korean restaurant.

Penny, I totally agree with you about the perception of AI in the racing world. If only there were a registry for AI TBs who were bred to be sporthorses.

[TKR]

You know, if someone had an interest and "deep pockets"a full page ad in The Blood Horse or Thoroughbred Times citing the many pros to using an appropriate Thoroughbred stallion in the sportsmarket might get some attention. Filling the book on a stallion and generating income has to be a primary consideration even if they don't race.
PennyG

[MardiGrasTimeStable]

Penny -
The problem comes from the fact that for most of the TB world those deep pockets are firmly entrenched in the racing world it seems. And the JC's stance on AI-ing is very much a deterent as well for some sport horse breeders, and for those standing TB stallions. They make it just about feel like we have to stand live cover only or risk a 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) closer look by the JC to "make sure" we aren't AI-ing our TB mares as well.

I'm just starting to "play" with breeding my own for multi-purpose ~> both racing and sport. So we'll see what comes of it. This year put my first 3 foals on the ground out of the 15-year-old senior stallion (http://www.pedigreequery.com/bar+v+cu+chulainn) that I inherited (I love his temperment and the fact that I can easily handle him by myself and know that he 110% respects my space). And I'm looking forward to getting the 3-year-old (http://www.pedigreequery.com/sa+fouronthefloor)that came home from the track (uninterested in racing, but man can he free-jump the moon!) under saddle before we decide whether or not to geld him.

But in all honesty we're not out advertising the senior stallion - I want to KNOW what he puts on the ground for myself first. This year I bred 2 of my other mares to him (didn't rebreed the mares that foaled this year), and had 2 outside mares come in to be bred (1 TB, 1 QH). He has no record of his own from an injury and the older gentleman that had him really didn't do anything with him or what few foals he actually had from him (he used his other stallion nearly exclusively).

[DownYonder]

In this day and age of digital cameras, why doesn’t JC start requiring photos of a mating as proof of live cover? If the photos accompanied the registration application, wouldn't they be reassured that JC rules were followed, and therefore less inclined to automatically suspect hanky-panky if a stallion station also provided AI services for the sport horse market?

[Hillside H Ranch]

In this day and age of digital cameras, why doesn’t JC start requiring photos of a mating as proof of live cover? If the photos accompanied the registration application, wouldn't they be reassured that JC rules were followed, and therefore less inclined to automatically suspect hanky-panky if a stallion station also provided AI services for the sport horse market?


I know pretty much nothing about the TB industry, but I think quite a few covers are already recorded by video?

[vineyridge]

Photoshop, anyone? We are long past the day when photographic evidence is trustworthy.

[DownYonder]

Photoshop, anyone? We are long past the day when photographic evidence is trustworthy.

And a form accompanied by no photos is more trustworthy? :confused:

While cheaters will of course always find a way to cheat, requiring photos of the mating would make the cheating a bit more difficult.

I'm all for making cheating as difficult as possible. :D

[DownYonder]

I know pretty much nothing about the TB industry, but I think quite a few covers are already recorded by video?

But are the videos submitted with registration applications? Or are they done primarily to reassure a mare owner that when she books her mare to Bluegrass Cat for $40,000, that her mare is actually BRED to Bluegrass Cat and not the farm teaser?

[LaurieB]

In this day and age of digital cameras, why doesn’t JC start requiring photos of a mating as proof of live cover? If the photos accompanied the registration application, wouldn't they be reassured that JC rules were followed, and therefore less inclined to automatically suspect hanky-panky if a stallion station also provided AI services for the sport horse market?

Well at the risk of sounding snarky, the JC doesn't require proof because it doesn't doubt that live cover is happening. That's the rule, it's been the rule for more than a century and it's the way TB breeders breed. They know how to do it, they're set up to do it. It's quick, it's relatively simple, and it's done dozens of times everyday during the breeding season.

I don't actually think the JC would give any thought to a TB stallion breeding non-JC mares by AI. They not only wouldn't be suspicious; they probably wouldn't even notice.

[LaurieB]

But are the videos submitted with registration applications? Or are they done primarily to reassure a mare owner that when she books her mare to Bluegrass Cat for $40,000, that her mare is actually BRED to Bluegrass Cat and not the farm teaser?

The JC does DNA testing now, so if your mare gets bred by the teaser by mistake, you'll find out at registration time. ;)

[DownYonder]

The JC does DNA testing now, so if your mare gets bred by the teaser by mistake, you'll find out at registration time. ;)

Right, I understand that. But then why do people go to the trouble of taping a breeding? If it isn't done for the mare owner, and it is isn't done to send to JC, then what is the point? Is it for the insurance companies in case the breeding goes bad and someone (equine or human) is injured, or - God forbid - killed?

[vineyridge]

Remember the big flap about Glitter Please? At least I think it was Glitter Please. Might have been some other TB Palomino stallion. Turns out that one year he was breeding by AI, but his owner was sending in the cover forms saying live cover. I think 5 of his foals got their registration yanked when they were two years old or so. The owner of one of the foals was posting on COTH at the time, which was not too long after I registered.

So in case of questions, video would CYA.

[Equilibrium]

In this day and age of digital cameras, why doesn’t JC start requiring photos of a mating as proof of live cover? If the photos accompanied the registration application, wouldn't they be reassured that JC rules were followed, and therefore less inclined to automatically suspect hanky-panky if a stallion station also provided AI services for the sport horse market?

The places my mares have been, all covers are recorded.

A couple of days ago when we picked up our mares from stud I said to my husband, "It's a pity one of John Magniers daughters wasn't into sporthorses." Mr. Equilibrium says " um, why?"

My reply: " Because breeding at some stage would be a topic and one would have to guess if they had a stud farm, it would be the best sporthorse stud in the world. And they would have some decent TB stallions on the list too."

Love them or hate them, their operation is second to none and you won't see horses cared for better than they are here.

My guess is to have a BN TB used for a sporthorse breeding program, you'd need one of these TB guys to have a keen interest in both. And by keen interest I mean one that knows the pedigrees inside and out of sporthorses and TB lines which jump, event, and do dressage. Then we'd see what we have.

The in training sales at the end of the sesons over here in Europe have huge numbers of colts that could have potential. You will find group winners and black type winners from good families too. Many are young enough to have a second career in sport. But you have to find that person who has the vision, the expertise, and money to back it all up.

Terri

[rocksolid]

The other thing to remember, it not only the stallion owners fighting live cover. Think about how much the shipping companies get to ship broodmares all over the place. How much farms get for boarding the mares. We are dealing with an tremendous amount of money generated by "live cover." Also, do the TB really need AI when some of the stallions breed over a hundred mares a year any way? Just my opnion.

[grayarabpony]

My guess is to have a BN TB used for a sporthorse breeding program, you'd need one of these TB guys to have a keen interest in both. And by keen interest I mean one that knows the pedigrees inside and out of sporthorses and TB lines which jump, event, and do dressage. Then we'd see what we have.

Terri

Eagle Lion's owner owns racehorses, as did Quidam de Revel's owner. But I guess they were unusual, and I don't know if George Strawbridge does any sportshorse breeding. :(

[TKR]

The stallions who breed the lion's share of the mares for racing are certainly not the ones the sportsmarket could or would be targeting. There is a significantly larger number that breed a few mares or less, too. Any that have lost popularity for whatever reason and aren't "filling their book" are subject to being sold or certainly offered at a reduced rate. The semen shipping is the problem. But maybe some education to smaller breeders or farms would encourage them to enhance their stallions' services to another equine industry. I think every industry is looking outside the box or anywhere they can enhance their income. Who knows?
PennyG

[K~2]

I've actually been seriously considering offering my Thoroughbred stallion to Sporthorse breeders. My biggest concerns are whether interest in breeding to him would outweigh the additional marketing, and whether Sporthorse breeders would breed to him based on his pedigree and racing performance alone.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

The places my mares have been, all covers are recorded.

A couple of days ago when we picked up our mares from stud I said to my husband, "It's a pity one of John Magniers daughters wasn't into sporthorses." Mr. Equilibrium says " um, why?"

My reply: " Because breeding at some stage would be a topic and one would have to guess if they had a stud farm, it would be the best sporthorse stud in the world. And they would have some decent TB stallions on the list too."

Love them or hate them, their operation is second to none and you won't see horses cared for better than they are here.


The Magnier kids did event. I believe both JP and Tom Magnier were on the Irish team at European Jnr championships.
And of course Sue Magnier owned Moonfleet, who won Badminton a couple of years back.

[grayarabpony]

Does anyone know -- did Howard use any of Seabiscuit's offspring in his polo pony program?